February 18, 2025 • 41 mins
Understanding adult autism through lived experience is at the heart of this deeply human episode. In this conversation, host Fiona Kane is joined by Michael Coles, who shares his raw and personal journey of living with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). From early diagnoses to autistic burnout, masking, and the importance of being your authentic self, Michael offers honest insights into what life is really like on the spectrum.
Whether you're an adult navigating autism yourself, supporting someone who is, or simply wanting to learn more, this episode will open your mind and heart.
👉 Listen in as we explore how connection, support, and self-advocacy can empower people with autism to thrive.
More about Michael Coles:
Michael is 50 years old and he is autistic. Having been diagnosed 3 times, first with PDD-NOS back when he was 3, then diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome at 35, then rediagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder in 2017, he has been struggling with high levels of anxiety and stress his whole life. In November 2023, he was hospitalized as a result of a lot of stress and changes being imposed on him at work.
Michael's contact info:-
Website- www.deepdiveau.net
Instagram – www.instagram.com/thedeepdiveau
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@thedeepdiveau
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-deep-dive-podcast
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61560333886558
YouTube - http://www.youtube.com/@TheDeepDiveAU
Check out Michael’s other interviews - http://linktr.ee/michaelcoles
Annie Crowe’s Neuroaccess Network http://www.neuroaccess.com.au/thenetwork
Amaze Connect – 1300 308699 http://www.amaze.org.au
Yellow Ladybugs – http://www.yellowladybugs.com.au
Learn more about booking a nutrition consultation with Fiona: https://informedhealth.com.au/
Learn more about Fiona's speaking and media services: https://fionakane.com.au/
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Credit for the music used in this podcast:
The Beat of Nature
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fiona Kane (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection Podcast
.
I'm your host, Fiona Kane.
Today I have another guest, soI'd like to welcome Michael
Coles.
Hi, Michael.
Michael Coles (00:11):
Hi Fiona, how are you this afternoon?
Fiona Kane (00:14):
Well, thank you.
I've just mentioned, just incase we hear it.
I'm near a RAF base and thereare some what did you call those
planes?
Some sort of jet fighter type?
Michael Coles (00:22):
planes.
It was F-111, I think so1, Ithink so.
It wasn't.
That's what it previouslycalled.
I don't know what it's callednow.
I just don't keep track ofthese things anymore I lost
track of them a while ago.
Fiona Kane (00:32):
Anyway, very loud uh , raf aircraft uh practicing
around here.
So if you hear some sort ofloud thunder type sounds, that's
what it is.
I apologize in advance, but uhand it's 40 degrees here.
I'm in Sydney, so it's 40degrees or 41 degrees here today
, so it's very warm, but I'minside in the air conditioning
very luckily.
Michael Coles (00:51):
Yes, I've got lovely air conditioning.
Here in Queensland we getaffected by humidity quite a lot
so yes, I'm not really goodwith humidity, unfortunately.
Fiona Kane (01:04):
So, Michael, for those who don't know you, can
you tell us a little bit aboutyou?
Michael Coles (01:08):
Okay, so I'm just about to turn 50, or I have
turned 50 by the time theepisode will be released.
I'm an autistic.
I've been living with autismpretty much all my life.
I was first diagnosed withPDD-NOS when I was three back in
1978.
I was first diagnosed withPDD-NOS when I was three back in
1978.
Then I was re-diagnosed, soit's post-development.
(01:29):
Sorry, I can't remember off myheart Pervasal, pervasal.
I can't pronounce the words.
I'm really struggling.
Fiona Kane (01:40):
That's all right.
So essentially, is it what theykind of used to diagnose before
they knew how to diagnoseautism?
Michael Coles (01:45):
Yes, it's a basic developmental disorder not
otherwise specified.
So basically they didn't have aname for it as yet.
Fiona Kane (01:52):
Okay, yeah, sorry to interrupt you.
I just thought people won'tknow what I've heard of that, so
I just thought it was best tosay that.
Michael Coles (01:57):
No, no, it's all good.
It's all good, it's good forexplain as well.
So, yes, and then I wasdiagnosed with uh, with um, with
Asperger's syndrome, back in2010, when my first wife
basically sort of left me aftersix months of marriage, which is
not very nice, um.
But then, sort of like, I metmy now now wife, who's who's
(02:19):
been with me like you know, uh,nearly 11 years now, or 14 years
actually together, and nowwe're 11 years married.
But I got diagnosed with autismspectrum disorder again back in
2017.
I basically sort of went to myclinical psychologist when one
of my sort of managers wastrying to bully me and stuff
(02:40):
like that.
But I think, because of myautism spectrum disorder, asd,
which is particularly sort ofknown at that particular stage,
I just wanted to sort of getsome support and then, sort of
like, I went to my clinicalpsychologist and then I got
diagnosed.
So it was an interesting sortof journey, sort of going from
(03:02):
that to now, interesting sort ofjourney, sort of going from
going from that to now.
So, and I obviously sort of uh,I only got in the NDIS back in
late 2023 after I had a autisticmeltdown or autistic burnout
episode back in November 2023.
Sorry, I've just finished thatsentence, sorry.
Fiona Kane (03:25):
Sorry, yeah, yeah, no problem.
Sorry, we're having slighttechnical difficulties.
It's dropping out a little bit.
However, I'm sure it's all good.
Generally speaking, thispodcast works, even if that
happens a little bit, so we willjust keep going.
So one of the reasons I wantedto speak to you is we were
(03:47):
talking about autistic burnoutwhen you and I were just
conversing earlier, and Isuppose there's a few things.
So, first of all, I know peoplehave heard of autism, but
probably just to give us abecause people might have heard
of it, but they have all variousideas about what it looks like
and obviously there's not oneanswer for what it looks like.
(04:09):
But it would be reallyinteresting just to have a bit
of a from your point of view.
What is it like living withautism in your experience?
Michael Coles (04:18):
So it's basically sort of in relation to stress I
don't handle stress,unfortunately too well sort of
in relation to stress I don'thandle stress unfortunately too
well.
Um, I used to have like afull-time job.
Now, sort of like, you know, Ican't handle full-time work
anymore because basically, sortof I know my daughter was, um,
diagnosed with autism as well,because it does actually run in
families.
So basically, sort of like,it's like if I'm putting under,
(04:41):
if I put under sort of severeduress or you know, basically
it's the like, you know, stressthat I can't handle.
Basically I get panic attacks,like I can get sort of meltdowns
, shutdowns.
Sometimes I can get sleepy, youknow, or you know, basically in
the afternoon, if I sort oflike have a like have a hard day
and stuff like that, I tend toget tired about two or three
(05:02):
o'clock, which need, which Idesperately need sleep.
And I know, sort of like youknow for a fact, that you sort
of like you need to functionbetween, like you know, three
and five o'clock because you'vegot parental responsibilities or
you know work responsibilitiesand that type of thing.
Fiona Kane (05:17):
So it's also okay, so a lot of it's about sort of
inability to regulate understress.
Michael Coles (05:25):
Yeah, and basically you sort of like, you
know you tend to info dump allthe type of thing, and I do
apologise for info dumping andstuff like that, because I do
tend to sort of like, if Iexpress things, you know, if I
talk about my favourite subject,I could talk about that for
hours.
But if I sort of talk aboutsomething that I just don't
really enjoy, that sort of like,you know, I tend to shut down
(05:47):
and not sort of like talk at all.
So I mean I don't tend to readbetween the lines too well, I've
been bullied a lot because forlittle to no explanation, so
sort of you sort of like theycould sort of like, you know,
tell if I'm a little bitdifferent.
But you know, basically I getbullied for that, which I don't
(06:11):
think that's fair.
Sometimes I've got selectivememory.
If I've got a good memory forthings I really enjoy, like you
know, I have a really goodlong-term memory for things I
really enjoy.
But then sort of like I tend toforget and stuff like that.
If it's sort of like you knowthings have been mentioned
recently and it's sort of likeyou know things have been
mentioned recently, and if Isort of like don't have that in
a visual form, then, um, I tendto forget as well.
So that's why I usually like tohave sort of like visual
(06:31):
calendars and all that type ofthing.
So I do have to ask a questionsometimes and sometimes that can
get a little bit annoying forsome people.
That sort of like you know,don't understand autism, I can
get flustered for no apparentreason.
So that could be sort of likeyou know, don't understand
autism, I can get flustered forno apparent reason.
So that could be sort of like,you know, anxieties at play here
.
Um, when I'm nervous I can'tput coherent sentences together.
So I do apologize if I sort oflike you know, if it's um I, I
(06:55):
have been diagnosed with um.
I was trying to think I can'tremember sort of like the verbal
thing for it, but um, I did.
I was diagnosed with a speechspeech therapist.
Uh, early, uh early last year.
So basically it's sort of likeum, it's, I remember it.
Now it's um expressive languagedisorder.
(07:17):
I've got mild expressivelanguage disorder and mild to
moderate receptive languagedisorder.
So basically sometimes I can'tsort of like I assume that that
means the ability to eitherunderstand what people are
saying or mild to moderatereceptive language disorder.
Fiona Kane (07:23):
So basically, sometimes I can't sort of like
take this in, so I assume thatthat means you're able to either
understand what people aresaying or maybe communicate with
people Verbally.
Michael Coles (07:30):
Yes, that's correct.
Yes.
Fiona Kane (07:32):
Yeah, Okay, and you said that you're quite visual,
in kind of the way you are.
I wonder again I don't know ifyou've seen this movie, but
recently I saw a movie withClaire Danes in it and she was
actually playing like areal-life person.
It's like the story about thiswoman.
Her name is Temple Grandin.
Michael Coles (07:53):
Yes, yes, she's one of the biggest, I think,
autism advocates.
I think it was probably thefirst autism advocate that was
in the world.
So, yeah, so Temple Grandin isquite a big autism advocate in
the world.
So, yeah, so Timbal Grandin isquite a big autism advocate in
the States.
Yeah, yeah.
Fiona Kane (08:07):
So in this film, I mean, I don't know, I don't know
, but I assume it seems like shedisplays quite well and shows
kind of they visualise quitewell what this might look like,
I suppose.
Well, it appears that way.
To me it appears like a reallygood sort of understanding and
(08:29):
what you see in this case isthat she's also quite visual.
So she's it's kind of showing,it's kind of giving an example
of what the visuals might lookfor, like for her in any
situation.
And so she'll be in a situationand she'll be having all these
visuals go through her head andit's kind of showing you all the
information she's processing atthe time and trying to have
these conversations and likewhat you were explaining, how
she sometimes doesn't read theroom well, doesn't understand
(08:52):
what's expected of her, thatkind of thing.
Michael Coles (08:56):
It's sort of like you know, a playbook.
It's like sort of like having aplaybook that the neurotypicals
have which we don't actuallyget.
So it's basically sort of likewe have to guess what they're
actually thinking, and sometimeswe can't read what they're
thinking.
We can't sort of like, you know, we don't have theory of that
mind.
So that's kind of where we sortof like, you know, have some
deficits there.
(09:17):
But it's sort of like you know,if there's people there, other
people that sort of like know usand just get to us that then we
can sort of blend really well.
Fiona Kane (09:25):
So yes, yeah.
Well, what she was able to dois she worked in the in the
cattle industry and she was ableto change the way that they set
up um slaughterhouses and andthose kinds of places, because
she kind of knew what the cattlewould get spooked by.
So she was able to look atthese kind of these places as
abattoirs and kind of go throughand say, okay, the reason the
(09:48):
cows are in distress is becausethere's like a flag over there
or someone's hung a T-shirt overthe edge or there's a dangly
thing there or whatever it is.
But she was able to spot all ofthe things.
So the fact that she's livingwith autism sort of meant that
well, she had a lot ofchallenges socially but she
actually was really great atkind of zoning in and sort of
(10:11):
finding specific problems inthat area and she's made a lot
of difference there.
Michael Coles (10:15):
Yeah, but I sort of like you know the dangers of
that, particularly masking.
I know sort of like a lot ofpeople, especially my age, has
been forced to basicallyintegrate with the rest of the
community.
So it's sort of like the dangerswith masking is basically sort
of like how do I just describeit?
(10:39):
It's basically trying to sort ofbe not your authentic self, and
if you sort of hide yourauthentic self it basically
leads to a lot of burnout.
Because you know you're tryingto sort of pretend to be, you're
trying to sort of like you knowyou're trying to think about 10
times harder and stuff likethat and what to do and you're
trying to sort of act and stuff.
So I mean sort of likesometimes it comes naturally,
(11:01):
but then sometimes like itdoesn't come naturally, if that
makes sense, um, sometimes, butyou know, sometimes you can't
sort of hold that in for liketoo long.
You can only sort of like copewith that up to a certain point
and then sort of then sort oflike you know the meltdowns and
the shutdowns happen.
So, um, it's, I mean masking isit's not that great in the
(11:25):
bigger sense of things, becauseyou can actually get big
meltdowns out of that.
So with the neuroaffirmingapproach, they're trying to
encourage people more to betheir authentic self.
Fiona Kane (11:39):
Yeah, so masking would be that thing where you're
trying really, really hard tobe like everybody else and be in
social situations and things.
Is that what you mean bymasking?
Michael Coles (11:49):
Pretty much in a lot of situations, particularly
in terms of employment.
I know, sort of like you know,in social situations sometimes
it works, sometimes it doesn'twork.
It all depends on whether theysort of like you know they can,
they know how to sort of, theycan sort of be, how to sort of,
they can sort of be used to youor something like that.
So if people are used to youand they can sort of you can
basically be your authentic self, it's fine.
(12:11):
But it's more sort of like youknow, basically in workplaces or
in schools, especially wherethose accommodations haven't
been accounted for.
So if you have accommodationsaccounted for and you sort of
like you know you can reallylive a successful life if you
have those accommodations inplace.
If you don't have thoseaccommodations in, then they're
(12:31):
basically sort of expecting youto act like a normal person.
Then it sort of creates a lotof burnout and then sort of
exhaustion.
You need to sort of sleep moreand then, sort of like you, you
only sort of like, um, youhaven't got the like the amount
of spoons that you have on aregular basis.
So, like if, if you have a sortof like you know, rough night's
(12:53):
sleep, um, which, as autistics,actually regularly sort of have
.
So if you don't have a lot ofspoons, you don't.
I mean that there's sort oflike you know, there's things
which that fill your cup, whichbasically increases the spoons,
and also things that canactually take a lot of spoons
away.
So if you take a lot of spoonsaway and you have no spoons,
(13:17):
then you can't really cope orcan't really function properly
okay, yeah, and you said, uh,that you experienced autistic
burnout.
Fiona Kane (13:26):
So can you tell us a little bit that?
Obviously this is what you'restarting to tell us about.
Tell us a little bit about thatstory and what and what that
was like okay.
Michael Coles (13:34):
so it started, I think back in may 2023, when I
had sort of like, um, a coupleof staff members that actually
really sort of knew about myautism and all that type of
thing left and there was allthese sort of like you know,
there's new stuff, and then theybasically sort of wanted their
own sort of like you know, sortof like you know ways and means
(13:55):
of doing things, but the problemwas they basically changed a
lot of things rather than justone or two things at a time.
So you know, that basicallysort of put me into a lot of
overwhelm and basically also, Idon't tend to sort of take
criticism too well.
So I was basically criticizedby you know a number of factors
(14:16):
that basically I wasn't eventaught about.
So there was only they taughtme some information, but not a
lot of information.
But you know, they were tryingto sort of get me out of that
organization.
So it sort of felt like you'rebasically sort of trying your
best, you're trying your hardest, but you felt like you weren't
good enough.
So and you were sort of likeyou know, you sort of like you
(14:38):
tried to sort of like expressyour needs and stuff like that,
and then you're not listened andall that type of thing and sort
of that sort of you sort oflike, you know, you had enough.
At that particular stage, when Iwas sort of like um, on
november 2 2023, I basicallytexted my wife and basically
said I said I, I can't cope withthis anymore, basically should
have.
She recommends to go to a gp.
(14:59):
But then sort of like, um,unfortunately, knowing what,
knowing myself, I tried to sortof like, you know, just
basically sort of like,unfortunately, knowing myself, I
tried to sort of like, you know, just basically sort of shove
it down to one side and justkeep going with it.
But then by 10 o'clock, I justrang the 13 health number here
in Queensland and they basicallycalled an ambulance and carted
me off to hospital.
So that's how severe it got.
So and therefore, sort of likeyou know, my GP sort of told me
(15:24):
to basically resign from thatjob because I needed to like get
away from that toxicenvironment.
Fiona Kane (15:30):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So it is important to recognize.
I suppose, if you were talkingto someone else now who might be
going through a similarexperience, what would you say?
Maybe is a warning sign thatthey could see or experience
that could maybe help them gethelp earlier, make the decision
(15:53):
earlier, rather than end up in asituation where they're being
carted off to hospital Onreflection is there something?
Or what would you say?
Michael Coles (16:01):
Probably sort of connect with some Yurkin and
stuff like that.
When I actually sort of likejoined the NDIS and stuff like
that back in December 2023, Ifound out, like you know, with
my journey and stuff like thattowards burnout or after burnout
, for, like you know, to adegree I basically went to like
the Queensland Disability Expoand then I found all these
(16:23):
Neurokin and stuff like thatthat basically sort of, like you
know, had autism spectrumdisorder but then they sort of
they were living their best life.
So it was good to sort of likeconnect with those neurokin and
I've actually connected withquite a few neurokin over the
years.
Fiona Kane (16:39):
So neurokin, is that what you're saying?
I was trying to think what thatword is.
Michael Coles (16:43):
you're saying neurokin, neurokin yes, yeah,
there's a group that I actuallyjoined called NeuroAccess, which
a good friend of mine, annieCrow, actually runs.
She's actually sort of a reallygood.
She's a really good advocatefor people with autism spectrum
disorder or people withneurodiverse conditions like
(17:03):
ADHD and stuff like that.
And I know, sort of like youknow, people tend to have ADHD,
which is a combination of ADHDand autism together.
So it's sort of like reallygood to have sort of like
connecting to that neurokin inplace.
So she's got this really goodchat group and you know
basically where you can connectwith her and you can sort of
(17:24):
like there's like you knowthere's support groups and then
like there's some live sort oflike meetings and all that type
of thing where you can sort oflike you know, talk and have a
thing and it's really good tosort of be sort of involved with
.
And I know sort of like a lot ofneurodivergent allied health
(17:45):
professionals have joined abusiness called Neurodivergent
Business Collective which runsby Adina Levy, so that's a
really good one.
That was basically sort ofestablished.
There's also another one whichis ConnectFest as well.
(18:05):
So there's a few sort of likeneurodivergent affirming sort of
like you know chat groups whichI've actually joined and I've
really enjoyed that.
So I've connected with anoccupational therapist and a
speech therapist as well, whichI got diagnosed with receptive
language disorder and expressivelanguage disorder, and also
(18:30):
obviously I'm seeing mypsychologist as well, which is
basically sort of like you knowit's gotten.
It's put a sort of like youknow, in sort of a report form
what my conditions are and how Icould, sort of like you know,
work with those needs and stufflike that as well.
Fiona Kane (18:48):
Yes, yeah.
So that would be the thing too,if one of the things I suppose
the outcome of talking to me andhaving these conversations, I
suppose is to sort of try andget out there that this is a
real issue and that there are alot of people who are living
with autism, who are verycapable of their work.
They just need things to be ina certain way or, or um, or
(19:13):
certain things to be put inplace yes, that's accommodations
and that's sort of like it'sreally essential yeah, yeah, so
that they can manage their,their stress and those kinds of
things.
So, uh, do you want to talk alittle bit more about?
So, if someone's listening andmaybe they're an employer or
they're in a situation wherethey're working with someone
with autism, what are the thingsthat you might recommend that
(19:36):
they would look at?
Michael Coles (19:37):
So I've basically sort of put together a like a
document called Working WithMichael.
So basically I'm reading sortof off this list now, so
basically.
So basically I put a list ofhow I work best.
So basically I work best whenI'm not time pressured and can
approach tasks in a logical andbasically a structured way.
(19:57):
So I work best with a lot ofstructure and a lot of
repetition.
So it's good to sort of havesort of like you know,
checklists and stuff like thatof working, how to work and
stuff like that and whatprocedures to put in place.
So you need to sort of makesure that the tasks are clear
and I know 100% what I'm doing.
I don't like it when I'mbasically sort of like, you know
(20:20):
, there's a lot of like vagueinstructions.
So I like to sort of have sortof like clear instructions so I
know exactly what to do.
And if you sort of like vagueinstructions, so I like to sort
of have sort of like clearinstructions so I know exactly
what to do.
And if it's sort of like it'sput together in a nice sort of
easy to read format, that'sreally good as well.
So basically there's also wherethere's no confusion or
ambiguity in a task.
So you need to have thatclearance as well.
(20:42):
So basically, and also, I havea fear about doing anything
wrong and stuff like that.
So I tend to be very guarded interms of, like you know, I'm I
don't want to get into troubleand stuff like that, because I
tend to get very scared whenpeople like scream at me or
shout at me or or just you knowbasically.
Just you know, basically sortof like get mad at me for no
(21:02):
reason at all.
So it's just, you know, it's.
I keep garden in terms of way Ilike to plan my day, tint I'd
like to the nth degree.
So I use calendars and all thattype of thing to make sure that
sort of everything's on trackand I can keep everything in
control.
So basically, if it's ifthere's urgent tasks that are
quick to complete, I can do them.
If there's, if there's, likeyou know, I'm allowed a lot of
(21:25):
time and stuff like that, um, ifthere's a change in priorities,
I like to discuss those, justto make sure that we're sort of
both, both on the same page.
So if there's a sudden changeof process, we have been changed
.
I like to sort of make surethat everything is covered.
So I like to make sure thatsort of like you know,
everything is covered from go towoe, so we can sort of know
(21:45):
what to do and stuff like that.
So there's no sort of ambiguityand sort of like you know, we
have sort of all the same page.
I tend to work best when Iactually sort of like
communicate with people andtrying to sort of see what they
see, how they see it.
So I like to sort of see howthey sort of approach a task and
sort of, like you know, try andfind out a way to sort of see
(22:05):
how they see it as well.
If I'm subject to a lot ofpressure and a lot of changes, I
would like to sort of do atleast a bit of planning so I
could actually sort of make surethat everything's sort of like
you know, the onboarding is alot better, and stuff like that,
than what I've experienced.
So if I get put in the spot andif I have to make a decision
straight away, I need to sort ofhave a lot more time to
(22:28):
actually sort of like you know,deal with that.
So I can, I can feel like I'mmaking the correct decision.
Sometimes it's sort of like youknow, you don't know what to
what's, what's the answerthey're wanting, and stuff like
that.
So that's why I struggle injump interviews as well, because
you need to sort of find outwhat they're wanting and stuff
like that.
So that's why I struggle injump interviews as well, because
you need to sort of find outwhat they're actually wanting.
(22:49):
But the problem is basicallyyou can't predict what they're
wanting.
So yeah, so I get tired from alot of overwhelm.
If there's a meeting suddenlyorganized, they sort of need to
sort of find out what it isabout, and all that type of
thing.
So everything is great ifthere's a lot of planning
involved, all that type of thing.
So everything is great ifthere's a lot of planning
involved.
So if I don't have much planninginvolved or sort of like you
(23:10):
know, if I sort of like don'tknow, sort of like you know that
, what it's all about, I do tendto get overwhelmed.
So if there's something I needto correct, um, and if I sort of
like it, if I find I'm in a lotof trouble, I tend to sort of
like overwhelm, or or if I sortof like, you know, I tend to
sort of like overwhelm, or if Isort of like you know I tend to
sort of ruminate on things andstuff like that.
So I tend to well, it's not thatI like to be perfect, but it's
(23:34):
sort of like you know we've gota perfectionistic tendency which
can be problematic as well.
So it's and I think also themain problem with my autism is
transition.
So you have to sort of like, ifyou want to go from one to
another, and then you have to goback to the old task and stuff
like that, you forget where youare, and stuff like that.
(23:55):
So sometimes you sort of likeyou know there can be, sort of
like you know there's bigproblems with transitions as
well, so and if it's all of asudden, then sort of like it
can't be problematic as wellyeah, yeah, so it's all about
structure and um and and reallycommit.
Fiona Kane (24:14):
I mean, honestly, a lot of these things are just
they should really be in theworkplace anyway, but I talk to
people every day about whattheir workplace is like and I
know that these things are notin the workplace, where people
have clear instructions, theyknow what's expected of them,
and there's a manual, and themanual's up to date and this is
what you need to do, and I cansay this in a kind of judgy way,
(24:36):
except I've been an employermyself over the years and I know
I haven't always done thatperfectly either.
It's easier said than done, butI get what you're saying.
Michael Coles (24:46):
And the other thing too I imagine in this it
would be the chain of commandstuff as well that you'd have to
be really clear who you'rereporting to and who's making
these decisions, because if youhad two or three people giving
you a different idea of whatneeds to be done, I imagine that
wouldn't and yeah, that's themain problem I had was basically
I was dealing with about threeor four people at the same time
(25:09):
and I wanted it done differentlyand all that type of thing,
instead of, like you know, I wasused to that one way and then,
basically, sort of like you know, they wanted to do it a
different way, which kind ofdidn't make sense to me.
Fiona Kane (25:19):
Yes, yeah, yeah, and I think that's one of the
biggest things that in myexperience, just in general, is
that the clients that I talk towho want to do a good job,
really want to do well, reallytrying their best, and they get
lots of mixed information and,like you said, changes and that
(25:42):
kind of thing and just a reallypoor communication overall and
really poor instructions and allthat sort of stuff.
That's that's stressful foranyone.
However, for people who areneurodivergent, obviously that's
that's just way over the top,it's just too much yeah, and
that sort of makes people tired,it makes people overwhelmed and
(26:02):
then sort of like it's sort ofit's not good for their quality
of life as well yes, yeah, butthe good thing is that and I I
don't know, uh, but I I'mguessing that, based on what
you're saying, that you probablyare pretty good if you have a
specific task and you know, youknow the instructions, you know
well, uh, that you that you're areally good person to have like
(26:25):
focusing or concentrating oncertain things.
Michael Coles (26:28):
Yeah.
Fiona Kane (26:28):
Because you've got ability to focus on it.
Would that be true for you?
Michael Coles (26:32):
That is very true as well.
So yeah, so, like you know, myjob is basically sort of like a
little bit different now.
I'm sort of doing sort of morecasual work.
I've just started a programfacilitator role at Empower
Autism, so I'm just basicallysort of teaching other people
how to live their best life ofautism.
So I'm really looking forwardto being part of that.
(26:55):
I'm also a board member withthe Australian Neurodivergent
Parents Association so we'resort of, like you know, dealing
with policy and stuff like thatfor government and stuff like
that.
We're trying to advocate forother neurodivergent parents
that are sort of being let downby the systems and stuff like
that.
We're trying to sort ofadvocate for them.
(27:15):
So it's really sort of great tobe involved with all these
autistic organizations and howto sort of like you know how can
improve people's lives withautism.
So I think sort of having thoseresources and having connected
to those resources and havingthat neurokin connection as well
(27:36):
, I think is so important.
Fiona Kane (27:40):
Yes, and it's funny that on this podcast, no matter
what the topic is that I'mtalking about, it often comes
back to.
One of the most importantthings is connection.
Michael Coles (27:50):
Yes, exactly.
Fiona Kane (27:50):
Connection to other people and also having some sort
of team around us of whetherit's medical professionals or
whoever it is that we need onour team to help us, because we
can't all do everything and wedon't all know everything, and
most of us, you know, benefitfrom having support from
professionals that know thingsthat you know that we don't know
(28:14):
.
So just having a good team,whatever that looks like as well
, is really useful.
Michael Coles (28:18):
Yeah, and having that sort of like support is
really essential as well.
And having the right support,that sort of like that can
really sort of like you can beyour authentic self with and you
don't have to sort of like hidewho you really are.
I think sort of it's importantto be who you authentically are
(28:39):
and so you can actually be yourfull self, rather than sort of
like you know, trying to besomething that you're not.
Fiona Kane (28:45):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
And the good thing is, Isuppose, because of people like
Temple Grandin and people likeyou and people who are out there
advocating, we are learningmore and more that that's okay.
And sometimes now you'll seecertain behaviours of
individuals and you'll kind ofgo oh okay, I think I know
what's going on here and it'sjust them responding to their
(29:06):
environment.
And so sometimes, yeah, ifpeople who are, well, I think I
would be classed as neurotypical, although I must admit I, when
you list a lot of the, a lot ofthe things that you would use to
diagnose autism, I tick a lotof those boxes, but I don't tick
all of them.
So I suspect that all of us areon some sort of spectrum,
(29:30):
really, of just how our brainswork.
That's just how it is.
But, yeah, really, when you'retalking to the neurotypical
people, I suppose the big thingis for us just to have a real
awareness around hey, this might, there might be something
you're doing in the environmentthat's actually negatively
affecting this person.
(29:52):
Who, with whose neurodivergentis that something?
Michael Coles (29:54):
yeah, especially with these sort of like you know
the environment, withworkplaces for example, like you
know, basically this sort oflike you know the fluorescent
lights it's not great forautistic, not great for autistic
people like you know.
The open plan offices, forexample, that's sort of not
really sort of like conducivefor a good environment with a
person with autism.
I like to work from home, soit's it's good for me because I
(30:17):
can sort of focus.
Basically I've got my ownenvironment.
I could sort of like you knowenvironment, I can control the
environment and basically haveit to whatever needs that I
actually sort of want.
So it's great to sort of likeyou want to make sure that your
environment is good for you aswell.
So I think it's sort of likepeople I think people in the
(30:40):
autism spectrum do well withself-employment as well because
they can control thatenvironment and they can control
their sort of like you knowthey can sort of be conducive to
their appointments and all thattype of thing.
And also you know you couldhave a parent of a person with
autism as well.
So usually it runs in families.
(31:01):
So sometimes you have to sortof like you know, attend their
appointments and stuff like that.
So you're trying to sort of,like you know, being an autistic
parent and also being a like aperson with autism can have a
lot of challenges as well, butif people can put the right
accommodations in place, I thinkit's a good thing.
I might have to sort of likeyou know, mention that the
(31:23):
National Autism Strategy hasjust been released.
So I'm hoping with some ofthose there's some really good
sort of like you know, thingsthat's going to be with the
going to be implemented with theNational Autism Strategy.
So hopefully that willencourage sort of more sort of
like you know, encourage likepeople with autism can live
(31:45):
their best life through thatstrategy as well.
So hopefully with some of thosestrategies it will work really
well.
But there can be a couple oflimitations as well.
So obviously I've created apodcast called the Deep Dive uh,
in june last year where Ibasically sort of talked to a
(32:05):
lot of autistic people and a lotof new divergent people and
some disabled people about sortof living their best life with
what they've got and stuff likethat as well, and they're sort
of creating their own spaces andtheir own sort of like you know
, really sort of you know, um,creative spaces and stuff like
that which are really succeedingwith.
So I've been really passionatein terms of like creating this
(32:30):
podcast to be able to sort of,like, you know, visualise those
ideas and stuff like that inplace.
So that's the main reason why Icreated the podcast is so,
basically, people can withautistic sorry, I'm losing my
track of thought here, I doapologize Sometimes, you know,
they can live their bestautistic life and we can sort of
(32:52):
like profile these people thatare living their best autistic
life and then they sort of like,you know, we can sort of like
make their visual to otherpeople and stuff like that.
And then there's sort of likeyou know, tools and tricks and
all that type of thing whichthey've created pretty much by
themselves, which I think isreally really good.
So, yeah, so I think one isUnderstanding, zoe, which I'll
(33:15):
have one of the episodes inSeason 2, which is starting on
the 5th of February.
So I've got four and all theepisodes, but that's one of them
that's coming up in February.
So I think you'll be reallykeen to find out about
understanding Zoe.
So she actually sort of likeyou know, the person I've
interviewed started her fromscratch and it's a really good
(33:37):
sort of AI tool that you canactually use to sort of help
with, you know, basically sortof caring for your autistic
child.
Fiona Kane (33:46):
Oh, okay, well, that sounds really good.
Yes, so that's an episode.
Our episode will probably comeout.
Might come out just a bit afterthat It'll be mid-February or
something.
This episode will come out.
So by the time this is released, that episode of yours will be
out already.
Yeah, sounds about right, yeah,and, and they're looking for.
(34:06):
Remind us what the podcast iscalled the deep dive podcast.
Michael Coles (34:10):
It's called the deep dive podcast, so you can
access it at this website,wwwdeepdiveaunet.
You can actually sort of likelog on to our instagram page or
tiktok page at thedeepdiveau, soyou can log on through our
Instagram or TikTok page.
Or you can go to our LinkedIn,which is the Deep Dive podcast,
(34:31):
our Facebook.
Just search the Deep Divepodcast and you can find it
there.
And you can also sort of likego to our YouTube page where you
can sort of view all our videosat thedeepdiveau as well.
Great, great, and I'll put allof thedeepdiveau as well.
Fiona Kane (34:44):
Great, great, and I'll put all of those links into
the show notes as well.
Before we finish up, I justwanted to say to you as well
there's a couple of things.
One, if the things that youwere talking about before
essentially, it would be greatif people who are living with
autism do learn how to advocatefor themselves and how to ask
(35:04):
for what they need.
But on the other side of things, if I know that I'm working
with someone who's who's livingwith autism, is it reasonable
for me to say to them hey look,I know that you're having some
challenges or that you mighthave some challenges here.
Is there anything I can do tohelp you or support you?
Would that be okay or wouldthat be considered a go?
(35:25):
That would be okay.
Michael Coles (35:27):
And also you can put them in like the direction
of.
There's a helpline calledAutism Connect which is run by
an organisation called Maze inVictoria.
There is a 1300 number whichI'll sort of like put in the
show notes.
I'll email that to you.
But there is a um, but there isa really good autism connect
service which is run by maze andthey can sort of help you with
(35:49):
whatever questions you need,whatever referrals and stuff
like that um and there's alsosort of like you can be, it can
be really accessible and stufflike that um through the
chatbots and also sort of like.
You know there's a phone numberas well and they've got email
support as well.
So that's probably the bestsort of like starting point you
can actually sort of workthrough.
(36:10):
If it wasn't for Autism PeerAssist, which is actually
through Autism Connect, Iwouldn't have been able to get
it on the NDIS.
So I think sort of like havingthat sort of assistance and that
help is really appreciated.
I know there's another sort ofpeople.
There's another sort oforganisation which deals with
(36:31):
women on the spectrum calledYellow Ladybugs.
So that's another organisationwhere they have their own
conference and stuff like thaton a yearly basis.
It's very neuroaffirming aswell, and they've got a lot of
resources and stuff like thatfor a yearly basis.
It's very neuroaffirming aswell, and they've got a lot of
resources and stuff like thatfor autistic girls as well.
So they're probably sort of twosort of organisations which
(36:52):
I'll probably put that in thedirection, for you can also sort
of go to your autismorganisation in your state as
well.
So that's probably a goodresource to go through as well.
Fiona Kane (37:05):
And I'm sure I do have a fair few international
listeners, but I'm sure they'vegot different variations of this
wherever they are, so theycould Google those as well.
But they could certainly lookat some of the Australian
websites and things, I assume.
Michael Coles (37:17):
Yep, sounds good.
Yeah, no, it's really good.
The sort of like you know thethe information is really
evolving and I know for a factthat sort of like you know
there's sort of learning thingsall the time, and I know there's
a lot of neurofibbing people inthis space that are really sort
of like passionate about whatthey're trying to sort of do.
So I think it's really reallygood to sort of have those
(37:40):
people in that sort of space tobe able to sort of help people
with autism.
Fiona Kane (37:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly People who live it, whoknow it, who can really help
others, which is what you'redoing as well.
So I really admire that you'redoing the same thing, but what
I'm going to do is I'm going tolead the way and maybe shine a
light on some of these issuesand point people in the
direction for support andservices that they need.
(38:09):
So that's well done on you.
Michael Coles (38:11):
Yeah, I think it's sort of like it's really
sort of helpful to have thoseresources into place.
I've had to sort of find theseall myself, so it's better to
sort of have those.
You know people you know, solike you know, you want to make
sure that sort of like you know,the people get the right
information, not get a lot ofmisinformation about.
So if you get the rightinformation you can actually
(38:33):
live your best life.
So it's sort of it's reallygood to sort of, like you know,
be sort of like you know, takenin the right direction, have
those resources on hand so youcan actually sort of you can
actually sort of like you know,succeed and thrive.
Fiona Kane (38:48):
Yes, yeah, which is the whole point, and so I'm
really glad that you're doingthat and I'll happily, like I
said to everyone, the show noteswill have all the links and
they can go out and check outyour podcast.
And you've got I think you'vegot a mug there as well, haven't
you?
Michael Coles (39:06):
Yeah, they can go out and check out your podcast.
And you've got I think you'vegot a mug there as well, haven't
you?
Yeah, so basically, I can sortof this is the Deep Dive mug you
can buy through our merchandisepage at our website,
wwwdeepdiveaunet.
I think I really like this one.
So I actually sort of rebrandedthis last year, so it's sort of
it's got our links and stufflike that, and so you can sort
of have that on your desk andyou can have that as a sort of
like.
You know, it's a conversationstarter, that's for sure.
Fiona Kane (39:29):
Yes, yes, I've got mug envy because I don't have
any merch or anything for mypodcast.
So I'm looking at your podcast.
So anyone who's listening tothis.
You have to check out YouTubeor Rumble the video and you can
have a look.
Michael Coles (39:47):
It's quite a cool mug there that you can purchase
.
Uh, you can also purchase alsostickers and also a um, like a
um I was trying to think stubbyholder as well.
So I've, I've diversified, soit's it's not just mugs you can
actually buy, you can actuallybuy a couple of things as well
okay, well done.
Fiona Kane (39:56):
Uh, yeah, I haven't even gone there yet.
Michael Coles (39:57):
So, yes, a bit of a bit of merch, merch envy and
I'm also looking forsponsorships and collabs to sort
of work out, because I'mself-funding the podcast at the
moment but I'm trying to sort ofget that sort of like you know,
the cost back in terms ofsponsorship and collaboration.
So please contact me if youwant to have a sponsorship or
collaboration.
Fiona Kane (40:18):
Yes, yes, definitely contact Michael and look
Michael before we finish up.
Is there anything that you feelthat I've missed, that we
really should, that you wantinformation or anything that you
feel you need to say before wefinish up or you feel like we've
covered everything?
Michael Coles (40:32):
I think we've covered everything.
I'm pretty sure we have.
Fiona Kane (40:35):
Yes, yeah, great, all right.
Well, thank you so much,Michael.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on the show
today.
Thank you, fiona.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you to everyone at homewho's listening and watching.
I hope you enjoyed that episode.
I learn so much when I do thispodcast.
That's what I really lovetalking to people, and talking
to people who have differentexperiences in life to me, and
(40:58):
different advice and information, and all of those contacts and
things that are available that Ididn't know about.
Like I said, I'll put them inthe show notes, but please like
subscribe, share rate.
All of those things.
I really appreciate it.
I like to have realconversations about things that
matter here on the WellnessConnection podcast.
So, thanks for your time todayand I'll see you all again next
(41:19):
week.
Thanks, bye-bye.
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection Podcast
.
I'm your host, Fiona Kane.
Today I have another guest, soI'd like to welcome Michael
Coles.
Hi, Michael.
Michael Coles (00:11):
Hi Fiona, how are you this afternoon?
Fiona Kane (00:14):
Well, thank you.
I've just mentioned, just incase we hear it.
I'm near a RAF base and thereare some what did you call those
planes?
Some sort of jet fighter type?
Michael Coles (00:22):
planes.
It was F-111, I think so1, Ithink so.
It wasn't.
That's what it previouslycalled.
I don't know what it's callednow.
I just don't keep track ofthese things anymore I lost
track of them a while ago.
Fiona Kane (00:32):
Anyway, very loud uh , raf aircraft uh practicing
around here.
So if you hear some sort ofloud thunder type sounds, that's
what it is.
I apologize in advance, but uhand it's 40 degrees here.
I'm in Sydney, so it's 40degrees or 41 degrees here today
, so it's very warm, but I'minside in the air conditioning
very luckily.
Michael Coles (00:51):
Yes, I've got lovely air conditioning.
Here in Queensland we getaffected by humidity quite a lot
so yes, I'm not really goodwith humidity, unfortunately.
Fiona Kane (01:04):
So, Michael, for those who don't know you, can
you tell us a little bit aboutyou?
Michael Coles (01:08):
Okay, so I'm just about to turn 50, or I have
turned 50 by the time theepisode will be released.
I'm an autistic.
I've been living with autismpretty much all my life.
I was first diagnosed withPDD-NOS when I was three back in
1978.
I was first diagnosed withPDD-NOS when I was three back in
1978.
Then I was re-diagnosed, soit's post-development.
(01:29):
Sorry, I can't remember off myheart Pervasal, pervasal.
I can't pronounce the words.
I'm really struggling.
Fiona Kane (01:40):
That's all right.
So essentially, is it what theykind of used to diagnose before
they knew how to diagnoseautism?
Michael Coles (01:45):
Yes, it's a basic developmental disorder not
otherwise specified.
So basically they didn't have aname for it as yet.
Fiona Kane (01:52):
Okay, yeah, sorry to interrupt you.
I just thought people won'tknow what I've heard of that, so
I just thought it was best tosay that.
Michael Coles (01:57):
No, no, it's all good.
It's all good, it's good forexplain as well.
So, yes, and then I wasdiagnosed with uh, with um, with
Asperger's syndrome, back in2010, when my first wife
basically sort of left me aftersix months of marriage, which is
not very nice, um.
But then, sort of like, I metmy now now wife, who's who's
(02:19):
been with me like you know, uh,nearly 11 years now, or 14 years
actually together, and nowwe're 11 years married.
But I got diagnosed with autismspectrum disorder again back in
2017.
I basically sort of went to myclinical psychologist when one
of my sort of managers wastrying to bully me and stuff
(02:40):
like that.
But I think, because of myautism spectrum disorder, asd,
which is particularly sort ofknown at that particular stage,
I just wanted to sort of getsome support and then, sort of
like, I went to my clinicalpsychologist and then I got
diagnosed.
So it was an interesting sortof journey, sort of going from
(03:02):
that to now, interesting sort ofjourney, sort of going from
going from that to now.
So, and I obviously sort of uh,I only got in the NDIS back in
late 2023 after I had a autisticmeltdown or autistic burnout
episode back in November 2023.
Sorry, I've just finished thatsentence, sorry.
Fiona Kane (03:25):
Sorry, yeah, yeah, no problem.
Sorry, we're having slighttechnical difficulties.
It's dropping out a little bit.
However, I'm sure it's all good.
Generally speaking, thispodcast works, even if that
happens a little bit, so we willjust keep going.
So one of the reasons I wantedto speak to you is we were
(03:47):
talking about autistic burnoutwhen you and I were just
conversing earlier, and Isuppose there's a few things.
So, first of all, I know peoplehave heard of autism, but
probably just to give us abecause people might have heard
of it, but they have all variousideas about what it looks like
and obviously there's not oneanswer for what it looks like.
(04:09):
But it would be reallyinteresting just to have a bit
of a from your point of view.
What is it like living withautism in your experience?
Michael Coles (04:18):
So it's basically sort of in relation to stress I
don't handle stress,unfortunately too well sort of
in relation to stress I don'thandle stress unfortunately too
well.
Um, I used to have like afull-time job.
Now, sort of like, you know, Ican't handle full-time work
anymore because basically, sortof I know my daughter was, um,
diagnosed with autism as well,because it does actually run in
families.
So basically, sort of like,it's like if I'm putting under,
(04:41):
if I put under sort of severeduress or you know, basically
it's the like, you know, stressthat I can't handle.
Basically I get panic attacks,like I can get sort of meltdowns
, shutdowns.
Sometimes I can get sleepy, youknow, or you know, basically in
the afternoon, if I sort oflike have a like have a hard day
and stuff like that, I tend toget tired about two or three
(05:02):
o'clock, which need, which Idesperately need sleep.
And I know, sort of like youknow for a fact, that you sort
of like you need to functionbetween, like you know, three
and five o'clock because you'vegot parental responsibilities or
you know work responsibilitiesand that type of thing.
Fiona Kane (05:17):
So it's also okay, so a lot of it's about sort of
inability to regulate understress.
Michael Coles (05:25):
Yeah, and basically you sort of like, you
know you tend to info dump allthe type of thing, and I do
apologise for info dumping andstuff like that, because I do
tend to sort of like, if Iexpress things, you know, if I
talk about my favourite subject,I could talk about that for
hours.
But if I sort of talk aboutsomething that I just don't
really enjoy, that sort of like,you know, I tend to shut down
(05:47):
and not sort of like talk at all.
So I mean I don't tend to readbetween the lines too well, I've
been bullied a lot because forlittle to no explanation, so
sort of you sort of like theycould sort of like, you know,
tell if I'm a little bitdifferent.
But you know, basically I getbullied for that, which I don't
(06:11):
think that's fair.
Sometimes I've got selectivememory.
If I've got a good memory forthings I really enjoy, like you
know, I have a really goodlong-term memory for things I
really enjoy.
But then sort of like I tend toforget and stuff like that.
If it's sort of like you knowthings have been mentioned
recently and it's sort of likeyou know things have been
mentioned recently, and if Isort of like don't have that in
a visual form, then, um, I tendto forget as well.
So that's why I usually like tohave sort of like visual
(06:31):
calendars and all that type ofthing.
So I do have to ask a questionsometimes and sometimes that can
get a little bit annoying forsome people.
That sort of like you know,don't understand autism, I can
get flustered for no apparentreason.
So that could be sort of likeyou know, don't understand
autism, I can get flustered forno apparent reason.
So that could be sort of like,you know, anxieties at play here
.
Um, when I'm nervous I can'tput coherent sentences together.
So I do apologize if I sort oflike you know, if it's um I, I
(06:55):
have been diagnosed with um.
I was trying to think I can'tremember sort of like the verbal
thing for it, but um, I did.
I was diagnosed with a speechspeech therapist.
Uh, early, uh early last year.
So basically it's sort of likeum, it's, I remember it.
Now it's um expressive languagedisorder.
(07:17):
I've got mild expressivelanguage disorder and mild to
moderate receptive languagedisorder.
So basically sometimes I can'tsort of like I assume that that
means the ability to eitherunderstand what people are
saying or mild to moderatereceptive language disorder.
Fiona Kane (07:23):
So basically, sometimes I can't sort of like
take this in, so I assume thatthat means you're able to either
understand what people aresaying or maybe communicate with
people Verbally.
Michael Coles (07:30):
Yes, that's correct.
Yes.
Fiona Kane (07:32):
Yeah, Okay, and you said that you're quite visual,
in kind of the way you are.
I wonder again I don't know ifyou've seen this movie, but
recently I saw a movie withClaire Danes in it and she was
actually playing like areal-life person.
It's like the story about thiswoman.
Her name is Temple Grandin.
Michael Coles (07:53):
Yes, yes, she's one of the biggest, I think,
autism advocates.
I think it was probably thefirst autism advocate that was
in the world.
So, yeah, so Temple Grandin isquite a big autism advocate in
the world.
So, yeah, so Timbal Grandin isquite a big autism advocate in
the States.
Yeah, yeah.
Fiona Kane (08:07):
So in this film, I mean, I don't know, I don't know
, but I assume it seems like shedisplays quite well and shows
kind of they visualise quitewell what this might look like,
I suppose.
Well, it appears that way.
To me it appears like a reallygood sort of understanding and
(08:29):
what you see in this case isthat she's also quite visual.
So she's it's kind of showing,it's kind of giving an example
of what the visuals might lookfor, like for her in any
situation.
And so she'll be in a situationand she'll be having all these
visuals go through her head andit's kind of showing you all the
information she's processing atthe time and trying to have
these conversations and likewhat you were explaining, how
she sometimes doesn't read theroom well, doesn't understand
(08:52):
what's expected of her, thatkind of thing.
Michael Coles (08:56):
It's sort of like you know, a playbook.
It's like sort of like having aplaybook that the neurotypicals
have which we don't actuallyget.
So it's basically sort of likewe have to guess what they're
actually thinking, and sometimeswe can't read what they're
thinking.
We can't sort of like, you know, we don't have theory of that
mind.
So that's kind of where we sortof like, you know, have some
deficits there.
(09:17):
But it's sort of like you know,if there's people there, other
people that sort of like know usand just get to us that then we
can sort of blend really well.
Fiona Kane (09:25):
So yes, yeah.
Well, what she was able to dois she worked in the in the
cattle industry and she was ableto change the way that they set
up um slaughterhouses and andthose kinds of places, because
she kind of knew what the cattlewould get spooked by.
So she was able to look atthese kind of these places as
abattoirs and kind of go throughand say, okay, the reason the
(09:48):
cows are in distress is becausethere's like a flag over there
or someone's hung a T-shirt overthe edge or there's a dangly
thing there or whatever it is.
But she was able to spot all ofthe things.
So the fact that she's livingwith autism sort of meant that
well, she had a lot ofchallenges socially but she
actually was really great atkind of zoning in and sort of
(10:11):
finding specific problems inthat area and she's made a lot
of difference there.
Michael Coles (10:15):
Yeah, but I sort of like you know the dangers of
that, particularly masking.
I know sort of like a lot ofpeople, especially my age, has
been forced to basicallyintegrate with the rest of the
community.
So it's sort of like the dangerswith masking is basically sort
of like how do I just describeit?
(10:39):
It's basically trying to sort ofbe not your authentic self, and
if you sort of hide yourauthentic self it basically
leads to a lot of burnout.
Because you know you're tryingto sort of pretend to be, you're
trying to sort of like you knowyou're trying to think about 10
times harder and stuff likethat and what to do and you're
trying to sort of act and stuff.
So I mean sort of likesometimes it comes naturally,
(11:01):
but then sometimes like itdoesn't come naturally, if that
makes sense, um, sometimes, butyou know, sometimes you can't
sort of hold that in for liketoo long.
You can only sort of like copewith that up to a certain point
and then sort of then sort oflike you know the meltdowns and
the shutdowns happen.
So, um, it's, I mean masking isit's not that great in the
(11:25):
bigger sense of things, becauseyou can actually get big
meltdowns out of that.
So with the neuroaffirmingapproach, they're trying to
encourage people more to betheir authentic self.
Fiona Kane (11:39):
Yeah, so masking would be that thing where you're
trying really, really hard tobe like everybody else and be in
social situations and things.
Is that what you mean bymasking?
Michael Coles (11:49):
Pretty much in a lot of situations, particularly
in terms of employment.
I know, sort of like you know,in social situations sometimes
it works, sometimes it doesn'twork.
It all depends on whether theysort of like you know they can,
they know how to sort of, theycan sort of be, how to sort of,
they can sort of be used to youor something like that.
So if people are used to youand they can sort of you can
basically be your authentic self, it's fine.
(12:11):
But it's more sort of like youknow, basically in workplaces or
in schools, especially wherethose accommodations haven't
been accounted for.
So if you have accommodationsaccounted for and you sort of
like you know you can reallylive a successful life if you
have those accommodations inplace.
If you don't have thoseaccommodations in, then they're
(12:31):
basically sort of expecting youto act like a normal person.
Then it sort of creates a lotof burnout and then sort of
exhaustion.
You need to sort of sleep moreand then, sort of like you, you
only sort of like, um, youhaven't got the like the amount
of spoons that you have on aregular basis.
So, like if, if you have a sortof like you know, rough night's
(12:53):
sleep, um, which, as autistics,actually regularly sort of have
.
So if you don't have a lot ofspoons, you don't.
I mean that there's sort oflike you know, there's things
which that fill your cup, whichbasically increases the spoons,
and also things that canactually take a lot of spoons
away.
So if you take a lot of spoonsaway and you have no spoons,
(13:17):
then you can't really cope orcan't really function properly
okay, yeah, and you said, uh,that you experienced autistic
burnout.
Fiona Kane (13:26):
So can you tell us a little bit that?
Obviously this is what you'restarting to tell us about.
Tell us a little bit about thatstory and what and what that
was like okay.
Michael Coles (13:34):
so it started, I think back in may 2023, when I
had sort of like, um, a coupleof staff members that actually
really sort of knew about myautism and all that type of
thing left and there was allthese sort of like you know,
there's new stuff, and then theybasically sort of wanted their
own sort of like you know, sortof like you know ways and means
(13:55):
of doing things, but the problemwas they basically changed a
lot of things rather than justone or two things at a time.
So you know, that basicallysort of put me into a lot of
overwhelm and basically also, Idon't tend to sort of take
criticism too well.
So I was basically criticizedby you know a number of factors
(14:16):
that basically I wasn't eventaught about.
So there was only they taughtme some information, but not a
lot of information.
But you know, they were tryingto sort of get me out of that
organization.
So it sort of felt like you'rebasically sort of trying your
best, you're trying your hardest, but you felt like you weren't
good enough.
So and you were sort of likeyou know, you sort of like you
(14:38):
tried to sort of like expressyour needs and stuff like that,
and then you're not listened andall that type of thing and sort
of that sort of you sort oflike, you know, you had enough.
At that particular stage, when Iwas sort of like um, on
november 2 2023, I basicallytexted my wife and basically
said I said I, I can't cope withthis anymore, basically should
have.
She recommends to go to a gp.
(14:59):
But then sort of like, um,unfortunately, knowing what,
knowing myself, I tried to sortof like, you know, just
basically sort of like,unfortunately, knowing myself, I
tried to sort of like, you know, just basically sort of shove
it down to one side and justkeep going with it.
But then by 10 o'clock, I justrang the 13 health number here
in Queensland and they basicallycalled an ambulance and carted
me off to hospital.
So that's how severe it got.
So and therefore, sort of likeyou know, my GP sort of told me
(15:24):
to basically resign from thatjob because I needed to like get
away from that toxicenvironment.
Fiona Kane (15:30):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So it is important to recognize.
I suppose, if you were talkingto someone else now who might be
going through a similarexperience, what would you say?
Maybe is a warning sign thatthey could see or experience
that could maybe help them gethelp earlier, make the decision
(15:53):
earlier, rather than end up in asituation where they're being
carted off to hospital Onreflection is there something?
Or what would you say?
Michael Coles (16:01):
Probably sort of connect with some Yurkin and
stuff like that.
When I actually sort of likejoined the NDIS and stuff like
that back in December 2023, Ifound out, like you know, with
my journey and stuff like thattowards burnout or after burnout
, for, like you know, to adegree I basically went to like
the Queensland Disability Expoand then I found all these
(16:23):
Neurokin and stuff like thatthat basically sort of, like you
know, had autism spectrumdisorder but then they sort of
they were living their best life.
So it was good to sort of likeconnect with those neurokin and
I've actually connected withquite a few neurokin over the
years.
Fiona Kane (16:39):
So neurokin, is that what you're saying?
I was trying to think what thatword is.
Michael Coles (16:43):
you're saying neurokin, neurokin yes, yeah,
there's a group that I actuallyjoined called NeuroAccess, which
a good friend of mine, annieCrow, actually runs.
She's actually sort of a reallygood.
She's a really good advocatefor people with autism spectrum
disorder or people withneurodiverse conditions like
(17:03):
ADHD and stuff like that.
And I know, sort of like youknow, people tend to have ADHD,
which is a combination of ADHDand autism together.
So it's sort of like reallygood to have sort of like
connecting to that neurokin inplace.
So she's got this really goodchat group and you know
basically where you can connectwith her and you can sort of
(17:24):
like there's like you knowthere's support groups and then
like there's some live sort oflike meetings and all that type
of thing where you can sort oflike you know, talk and have a
thing and it's really good tosort of be sort of involved with
.
And I know sort of like a lot ofneurodivergent allied health
(17:45):
professionals have joined abusiness called Neurodivergent
Business Collective which runsby Adina Levy, so that's a
really good one.
That was basically sort ofestablished.
There's also another one whichis ConnectFest as well.
(18:05):
So there's a few sort of likeneurodivergent affirming sort of
like you know chat groups whichI've actually joined and I've
really enjoyed that.
So I've connected with anoccupational therapist and a
speech therapist as well, whichI got diagnosed with receptive
language disorder and expressivelanguage disorder, and also
(18:30):
obviously I'm seeing mypsychologist as well, which is
basically sort of like you knowit's gotten.
It's put a sort of like youknow, in sort of a report form
what my conditions are and how Icould, sort of like you know,
work with those needs and stufflike that as well.
Fiona Kane (18:48):
Yes, yeah.
So that would be the thing too,if one of the things I suppose
the outcome of talking to me andhaving these conversations, I
suppose is to sort of try andget out there that this is a
real issue and that there are alot of people who are living
with autism, who are verycapable of their work.
They just need things to be ina certain way or, or um, or
(19:13):
certain things to be put inplace yes, that's accommodations
and that's sort of like it'sreally essential yeah, yeah, so
that they can manage their,their stress and those kinds of
things.
So, uh, do you want to talk alittle bit more about?
So, if someone's listening andmaybe they're an employer or
they're in a situation wherethey're working with someone
with autism, what are the thingsthat you might recommend that
(19:36):
they would look at?
Michael Coles (19:37):
So I've basically sort of put together a like a
document called Working WithMichael.
So basically I'm reading sortof off this list now, so
basically.
So basically I put a list ofhow I work best.
So basically I work best whenI'm not time pressured and can
approach tasks in a logical andbasically a structured way.
(19:57):
So I work best with a lot ofstructure and a lot of
repetition.
So it's good to sort of havesort of like you know,
checklists and stuff like thatof working, how to work and
stuff like that and whatprocedures to put in place.
So you need to sort of makesure that the tasks are clear
and I know 100% what I'm doing.
I don't like it when I'mbasically sort of like, you know
(20:20):
, there's a lot of like vagueinstructions.
So I like to sort of have sortof like clear instructions so I
know exactly what to do.
And if you sort of like vagueinstructions, so I like to sort
of have sort of like clearinstructions so I know exactly
what to do.
And if it's sort of like it'sput together in a nice sort of
easy to read format, that'sreally good as well.
So basically there's also wherethere's no confusion or
ambiguity in a task.
So you need to have thatclearance as well.
(20:42):
So basically, and also, I havea fear about doing anything
wrong and stuff like that.
So I tend to be very guarded interms of, like you know, I'm I
don't want to get into troubleand stuff like that, because I
tend to get very scared whenpeople like scream at me or
shout at me or or just you knowbasically.
Just you know, basically sortof like get mad at me for no
(21:02):
reason at all.
So it's just, you know, it's.
I keep garden in terms of way Ilike to plan my day, tint I'd
like to the nth degree.
So I use calendars and all thattype of thing to make sure that
sort of everything's on trackand I can keep everything in
control.
So basically, if it's ifthere's urgent tasks that are
quick to complete, I can do them.
If there's, if there's, likeyou know, I'm allowed a lot of
(21:25):
time and stuff like that, um, ifthere's a change in priorities,
I like to discuss those, justto make sure that we're sort of
both, both on the same page.
So if there's a sudden changeof process, we have been changed
.
I like to sort of make surethat everything is covered.
So I like to make sure thatsort of like you know,
everything is covered from go towoe, so we can sort of know
(21:45):
what to do and stuff like that.
So there's no sort of ambiguityand sort of like you know, we
have sort of all the same page.
I tend to work best when Iactually sort of like
communicate with people andtrying to sort of see what they
see, how they see it.
So I like to sort of see howthey sort of approach a task and
sort of, like you know, try andfind out a way to sort of see
(22:05):
how they see it as well.
If I'm subject to a lot ofpressure and a lot of changes, I
would like to sort of do atleast a bit of planning so I
could actually sort of make surethat everything's sort of like
you know, the onboarding is alot better, and stuff like that,
than what I've experienced.
So if I get put in the spot andif I have to make a decision
straight away, I need to sort ofhave a lot more time to
(22:28):
actually sort of like you know,deal with that.
So I can, I can feel like I'mmaking the correct decision.
Sometimes it's sort of like youknow, you don't know what to
what's, what's the answerthey're wanting, and stuff like
that.
So that's why I struggle injump interviews as well, because
you need to sort of find outwhat they're wanting and stuff
like that.
So that's why I struggle injump interviews as well, because
you need to sort of find outwhat they're actually wanting.
(22:49):
But the problem is basicallyyou can't predict what they're
wanting.
So yeah, so I get tired from alot of overwhelm.
If there's a meeting suddenlyorganized, they sort of need to
sort of find out what it isabout, and all that type of
thing.
So everything is great ifthere's a lot of planning
involved, all that type of thing.
So everything is great ifthere's a lot of planning
involved.
So if I don't have much planninginvolved or sort of like you
(23:10):
know, if I sort of like don'tknow, sort of like you know that
, what it's all about, I do tendto get overwhelmed.
So if there's something I needto correct, um, and if I sort of
like it, if I find I'm in a lotof trouble, I tend to sort of
like overwhelm, or or if I sortof like, you know, I tend to
sort of like overwhelm, or if Isort of like you know I tend to
sort of ruminate on things andstuff like that.
So I tend to well, it's not thatI like to be perfect, but it's
(23:34):
sort of like you know we've gota perfectionistic tendency which
can be problematic as well.
So it's and I think also themain problem with my autism is
transition.
So you have to sort of like, ifyou want to go from one to
another, and then you have to goback to the old task and stuff
like that, you forget where youare, and stuff like that.
(23:55):
So sometimes you sort of likeyou know there can be, sort of
like you know there's bigproblems with transitions as
well, so and if it's all of asudden, then sort of like it
can't be problematic as wellyeah, yeah, so it's all about
structure and um and and reallycommit.
Fiona Kane (24:14):
I mean, honestly, a lot of these things are just
they should really be in theworkplace anyway, but I talk to
people every day about whattheir workplace is like and I
know that these things are notin the workplace, where people
have clear instructions, theyknow what's expected of them,
and there's a manual, and themanual's up to date and this is
what you need to do, and I cansay this in a kind of judgy way,
(24:36):
except I've been an employermyself over the years and I know
I haven't always done thatperfectly either.
It's easier said than done, butI get what you're saying.
Michael Coles (24:46):
And the other thing too I imagine in this it
would be the chain of commandstuff as well that you'd have to
be really clear who you'rereporting to and who's making
these decisions, because if youhad two or three people giving
you a different idea of whatneeds to be done, I imagine that
wouldn't and yeah, that's themain problem I had was basically
I was dealing with about threeor four people at the same time
(25:09):
and I wanted it done differentlyand all that type of thing,
instead of, like you know, I wasused to that one way and then,
basically, sort of like you know, they wanted to do it a
different way, which kind ofdidn't make sense to me.
Fiona Kane (25:19):
Yes, yeah, yeah, and I think that's one of the
biggest things that in myexperience, just in general, is
that the clients that I talk towho want to do a good job,
really want to do well, reallytrying their best, and they get
lots of mixed information and,like you said, changes and that
(25:42):
kind of thing and just a reallypoor communication overall and
really poor instructions and allthat sort of stuff.
That's that's stressful foranyone.
However, for people who areneurodivergent, obviously that's
that's just way over the top,it's just too much yeah, and
that sort of makes people tired,it makes people overwhelmed and
(26:02):
then sort of like it's sort ofit's not good for their quality
of life as well yes, yeah, butthe good thing is that and I I
don't know, uh, but I I'mguessing that, based on what
you're saying, that you probablyare pretty good if you have a
specific task and you know, youknow the instructions, you know
well, uh, that you that you're areally good person to have like
(26:25):
focusing or concentrating oncertain things.
Michael Coles (26:28):
Yeah.
Fiona Kane (26:28):
Because you've got ability to focus on it.
Would that be true for you?
Michael Coles (26:32):
That is very true as well.
So yeah, so, like you know, myjob is basically sort of like a
little bit different now.
I'm sort of doing sort of morecasual work.
I've just started a programfacilitator role at Empower
Autism, so I'm just basicallysort of teaching other people
how to live their best life ofautism.
So I'm really looking forwardto being part of that.
(26:55):
I'm also a board member withthe Australian Neurodivergent
Parents Association so we'resort of, like you know, dealing
with policy and stuff like thatfor government and stuff like
that.
We're trying to advocate forother neurodivergent parents
that are sort of being let downby the systems and stuff like
that.
We're trying to sort ofadvocate for them.
(27:15):
So it's really sort of great tobe involved with all these
autistic organizations and howto sort of like you know how can
improve people's lives withautism.
So I think sort of having thoseresources and having connected
to those resources and havingthat neurokin connection as well
(27:36):
, I think is so important.
Fiona Kane (27:40):
Yes, and it's funny that on this podcast, no matter
what the topic is that I'mtalking about, it often comes
back to.
One of the most importantthings is connection.
Michael Coles (27:50):
Yes, exactly.
Fiona Kane (27:50):
Connection to other people and also having some sort
of team around us of whetherit's medical professionals or
whoever it is that we need onour team to help us, because we
can't all do everything and wedon't all know everything, and
most of us, you know, benefitfrom having support from
professionals that know thingsthat you know that we don't know
(28:14):
.
So just having a good team,whatever that looks like as well
, is really useful.
Michael Coles (28:18):
Yeah, and having that sort of like support is
really essential as well.
And having the right support,that sort of like that can
really sort of like you can beyour authentic self with and you
don't have to sort of like hidewho you really are.
I think sort of it's importantto be who you authentically are
(28:39):
and so you can actually be yourfull self, rather than sort of
like you know, trying to besomething that you're not.
Fiona Kane (28:45):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
And the good thing is, Isuppose, because of people like
Temple Grandin and people likeyou and people who are out there
advocating, we are learningmore and more that that's okay.
And sometimes now you'll seecertain behaviours of
individuals and you'll kind ofgo oh okay, I think I know
what's going on here and it'sjust them responding to their
(29:06):
environment.
And so sometimes, yeah, ifpeople who are, well, I think I
would be classed as neurotypical, although I must admit I, when
you list a lot of the, a lot ofthe things that you would use to
diagnose autism, I tick a lotof those boxes, but I don't tick
all of them.
So I suspect that all of us areon some sort of spectrum,
(29:30):
really, of just how our brainswork.
That's just how it is.
But, yeah, really, when you'retalking to the neurotypical
people, I suppose the big thingis for us just to have a real
awareness around hey, this might, there might be something
you're doing in the environmentthat's actually negatively
affecting this person.
(29:52):
Who, with whose neurodivergentis that something?
Michael Coles (29:54):
yeah, especially with these sort of like you know
the environment, withworkplaces for example, like you
know, basically this sort oflike you know the fluorescent
lights it's not great forautistic, not great for autistic
people like you know.
The open plan offices, forexample, that's sort of not
really sort of like conducivefor a good environment with a
person with autism.
I like to work from home, soit's it's good for me because I
(30:17):
can sort of focus.
Basically I've got my ownenvironment.
I could sort of like you knowenvironment, I can control the
environment and basically haveit to whatever needs that I
actually sort of want.
So it's great to sort of likeyou want to make sure that your
environment is good for you aswell.
So I think it's sort of likepeople I think people in the
(30:40):
autism spectrum do well withself-employment as well because
they can control thatenvironment and they can control
their sort of like you knowthey can sort of be conducive to
their appointments and all thattype of thing.
And also you know you couldhave a parent of a person with
autism as well.
So usually it runs in families.
(31:01):
So sometimes you have to sortof like you know, attend their
appointments and stuff like that.
So you're trying to sort of,like you know, being an autistic
parent and also being a like aperson with autism can have a
lot of challenges as well, butif people can put the right
accommodations in place, I thinkit's a good thing.
I might have to sort of likeyou know, mention that the
(31:23):
National Autism Strategy hasjust been released.
So I'm hoping with some ofthose there's some really good
sort of like you know, thingsthat's going to be with the
going to be implemented with theNational Autism Strategy.
So hopefully that willencourage sort of more sort of
like you know, encourage likepeople with autism can live
(31:45):
their best life through thatstrategy as well.
So hopefully with some of thosestrategies it will work really
well.
But there can be a couple oflimitations as well.
So obviously I've created apodcast called the Deep Dive uh,
in june last year where Ibasically sort of talked to a
(32:05):
lot of autistic people and a lotof new divergent people and
some disabled people about sortof living their best life with
what they've got and stuff likethat as well, and they're sort
of creating their own spaces andtheir own sort of like you know
, really sort of you know, um,creative spaces and stuff like
that which are really succeedingwith.
So I've been really passionatein terms of like creating this
(32:30):
podcast to be able to sort of,like, you know, visualise those
ideas and stuff like that inplace.
So that's the main reason why Icreated the podcast is so,
basically, people can withautistic sorry, I'm losing my
track of thought here, I doapologize Sometimes, you know,
they can live their bestautistic life and we can sort of
(32:52):
like profile these people thatare living their best autistic
life and then they sort of like,you know, we can sort of like
make their visual to otherpeople and stuff like that.
And then there's sort of likeyou know, tools and tricks and
all that type of thing whichthey've created pretty much by
themselves, which I think isreally really good.
So, yeah, so I think one isUnderstanding, zoe, which I'll
(33:15):
have one of the episodes inSeason 2, which is starting on
the 5th of February.
So I've got four and all theepisodes, but that's one of them
that's coming up in February.
So I think you'll be reallykeen to find out about
understanding Zoe.
So she actually sort of likeyou know, the person I've
interviewed started her fromscratch and it's a really good
(33:37):
sort of AI tool that you canactually use to sort of help
with, you know, basically sortof caring for your autistic
child.
Fiona Kane (33:46):
Oh, okay, well, that sounds really good.
Yes, so that's an episode.
Our episode will probably comeout.
Might come out just a bit afterthat It'll be mid-February or
something.
This episode will come out.
So by the time this is released, that episode of yours will be
out already.
Yeah, sounds about right, yeah,and, and they're looking for.
(34:06):
Remind us what the podcast iscalled the deep dive podcast.
Michael Coles (34:10):
It's called the deep dive podcast, so you can
access it at this website,wwwdeepdiveaunet.
You can actually sort of likelog on to our instagram page or
tiktok page at thedeepdiveau, soyou can log on through our
Instagram or TikTok page.
Or you can go to our LinkedIn,which is the Deep Dive podcast,
(34:31):
our Facebook.
Just search the Deep Divepodcast and you can find it
there.
And you can also sort of likego to our YouTube page where you
can sort of view all our videosat thedeepdiveau as well.
Great, great, and I'll put allof thedeepdiveau as well.
Fiona Kane (34:44):
Great, great, and I'll put all of those links into
the show notes as well.
Before we finish up, I justwanted to say to you as well
there's a couple of things.
One, if the things that youwere talking about before
essentially, it would be greatif people who are living with
autism do learn how to advocatefor themselves and how to ask
(35:04):
for what they need.
But on the other side of things, if I know that I'm working
with someone who's who's livingwith autism, is it reasonable
for me to say to them hey look,I know that you're having some
challenges or that you mighthave some challenges here.
Is there anything I can do tohelp you or support you?
Would that be okay or wouldthat be considered a go?
(35:25):
That would be okay.
Michael Coles (35:27):
And also you can put them in like the direction
of.
There's a helpline calledAutism Connect which is run by
an organisation called Maze inVictoria.
There is a 1300 number whichI'll sort of like put in the
show notes.
I'll email that to you.
But there is a um, but there isa really good autism connect
service which is run by maze andthey can sort of help you with
(35:49):
whatever questions you need,whatever referrals and stuff
like that um and there's alsosort of like you can be, it can
be really accessible and stufflike that um through the
chatbots and also sort of like.
You know there's a phone numberas well and they've got email
support as well.
So that's probably the bestsort of like starting point you
can actually sort of workthrough.
(36:10):
If it wasn't for Autism PeerAssist, which is actually
through Autism Connect, Iwouldn't have been able to get
it on the NDIS.
So I think sort of like havingthat sort of assistance and that
help is really appreciated.
I know there's another sort ofpeople.
There's another sort oforganisation which deals with
(36:31):
women on the spectrum calledYellow Ladybugs.
So that's another organisationwhere they have their own
conference and stuff like thaton a yearly basis.
It's very neuroaffirming aswell, and they've got a lot of
resources and stuff like thatfor a yearly basis.
It's very neuroaffirming aswell, and they've got a lot of
resources and stuff like thatfor autistic girls as well.
So they're probably sort of twosort of organisations which
(36:52):
I'll probably put that in thedirection, for you can also sort
of go to your autismorganisation in your state as
well.
So that's probably a goodresource to go through as well.
Fiona Kane (37:05):
And I'm sure I do have a fair few international
listeners, but I'm sure they'vegot different variations of this
wherever they are, so theycould Google those as well.
But they could certainly lookat some of the Australian
websites and things, I assume.
Michael Coles (37:17):
Yep, sounds good.
Yeah, no, it's really good.
The sort of like you know thethe information is really
evolving and I know for a factthat sort of like you know
there's sort of learning thingsall the time, and I know there's
a lot of neurofibbing people inthis space that are really sort
of like passionate about whatthey're trying to sort of do.
So I think it's really reallygood to sort of have those
(37:40):
people in that sort of space tobe able to sort of help people
with autism.
Fiona Kane (37:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly People who live it, whoknow it, who can really help
others, which is what you'redoing as well.
So I really admire that you'redoing the same thing, but what
I'm going to do is I'm going tolead the way and maybe shine a
light on some of these issuesand point people in the
direction for support andservices that they need.
(38:09):
So that's well done on you.
Michael Coles (38:11):
Yeah, I think it's sort of like it's really
sort of helpful to have thoseresources into place.
I've had to sort of find theseall myself, so it's better to
sort of have those.
You know people you know, solike you know, you want to make
sure that sort of like you know,the people get the right
information, not get a lot ofmisinformation about.
So if you get the rightinformation you can actually
(38:33):
live your best life.
So it's sort of it's reallygood to sort of, like you know,
be sort of like you know, takenin the right direction, have
those resources on hand so youcan actually sort of you can
actually sort of like you know,succeed and thrive.
Fiona Kane (38:48):
Yes, yeah, which is the whole point, and so I'm
really glad that you're doingthat and I'll happily, like I
said to everyone, the show noteswill have all the links and
they can go out and check outyour podcast.
And you've got I think you'vegot a mug there as well, haven't
you?
Michael Coles (39:06):
Yeah, they can go out and check out your podcast.
And you've got I think you'vegot a mug there as well, haven't
you?
Yeah, so basically, I can sortof this is the Deep Dive mug you
can buy through our merchandisepage at our website,
wwwdeepdiveaunet.
I think I really like this one.
So I actually sort of rebrandedthis last year, so it's sort of
it's got our links and stufflike that, and so you can sort
of have that on your desk andyou can have that as a sort of
like.
You know, it's a conversationstarter, that's for sure.
Fiona Kane (39:29):
Yes, yes, I've got mug envy because I don't have
any merch or anything for mypodcast.
So I'm looking at your podcast.
So anyone who's listening tothis.
You have to check out YouTubeor Rumble the video and you can
have a look.
Michael Coles (39:47):
It's quite a cool mug there that you can purchase
.
Uh, you can also purchase alsostickers and also a um, like a
um I was trying to think stubbyholder as well.
So I've, I've diversified, soit's it's not just mugs you can
actually buy, you can actuallybuy a couple of things as well
okay, well done.
Fiona Kane (39:56):
Uh, yeah, I haven't even gone there yet.
Michael Coles (39:57):
So, yes, a bit of a bit of merch, merch envy and
I'm also looking forsponsorships and collabs to sort
of work out, because I'mself-funding the podcast at the
moment but I'm trying to sort ofget that sort of like you know,
the cost back in terms ofsponsorship and collaboration.
So please contact me if youwant to have a sponsorship or
collaboration.
Fiona Kane (40:18):
Yes, yes, definitely contact Michael and look
Michael before we finish up.
Is there anything that you feelthat I've missed, that we
really should, that you wantinformation or anything that you
feel you need to say before wefinish up or you feel like we've
covered everything?
Michael Coles (40:32):
I think we've covered everything.
I'm pretty sure we have.
Fiona Kane (40:35):
Yes, yeah, great, all right.
Well, thank you so much,Michael.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on the show
today.
Thank you, fiona.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you to everyone at homewho's listening and watching.
I hope you enjoyed that episode.
I learn so much when I do thispodcast.
That's what I really lovetalking to people, and talking
to people who have differentexperiences in life to me, and
(40:58):
different advice and information, and all of those contacts and
things that are available that Ididn't know about.
Like I said, I'll put them inthe show notes, but please like
subscribe, share rate.
All of those things.
I really appreciate it.
I like to have realconversations about things that
matter here on the WellnessConnection podcast.
So, thanks for your time todayand I'll see you all again next
(41:19):
week.
Thanks, bye-bye.
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