December 2, 2025 • 51 mins
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In today’s episode, Jon returns to the show’s original format—raw, unscripted, brain-based parenting questions—this time focused entirely on sibling dynamics. If you have more than one child (or plan to), this might be one of the most clarifying episodes you ever listen to.
Inside this episode:
Why kids compete… why they fight over nothing… why your nervous system spirals in the cross-fire… and the realistic brain-based tools parents can use to survive those hot-cold sibling dynamics without losing themselves.
What We Cover
1. Why Sibling Rivalry Is Normal
Kids don’t choose their siblings.
They don’t choose their living arrangement.
And unlike adult relationships, they can’t leave or create space.
Jon unpacks why built-in competition, developmental limitations, and underdeveloped emotional regulation make conflict inevitable—and why none of this means anything is “wrong” with your family.
2. Regulating Your Nervous System First
Listener Question: “How do I stay calm when their chaos instantly spikes my anxiety?”
Jon explains:
- Why your body responds like it’s an emergency
- Why entering the conflict dysregulated makes the conflict worse
- The power of taking 30–40 seconds before jumping in
- Quick grounding tools (breathing, sensory checks, tapping, internal scripts like “I’m safe, they’re safe, this is not an emergency”)
- How your energy sets the emotional temperature of the room
This is one of those “if you remember nothing else, remember this” moments.
3. Opposite Temperaments & Constant Clashing
Listener Question: “One kid is sensitive, one is impulsive—they constantly trigger each other. How do I help them get along?”
Jon dives into:
- The difference between describing temperament vs prescribing it
- Why comparison creates competition
- Why kids don’t need fewer shared moments—they need more positive moments
- How to create “positive association loops” in the sibling relationship
- What it means to aim for 51% positive interactions
This is less about fixing fights and more about building a foundation for lifelong friendship.
4. Sharing Without Meltdowns
Listener Question: “Both of my kids fight over everything—even stuff they didn’t care about five minutes ago.”
Jon covers:
- Why sharing is developmentally unnatural
- Why kids experience loss aversion when giving something up
- The game-changing strategy:
Every child gets a small box of “non-sharing” items. Everything else becomes community property. - Why this instantly calms power struggles
- How to use quick “attention flips” to reduce sharing meltdowns in the moment
- And how to speak self-fulfilling prophecies:
“You’re such a good sharer.”
Big Takeaways
- Your calm nervous system is more powerful than any script.
- Siblings don’t need perfect harmony—they need repetition of positive experiences.
- Sharing starts with autonomy, not forced generosity.
- You’re not trying to prevent every fight.
You’re playing the long game—raising adults who can have a lifelong relationship with each other.
If This Episode Helped You…
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon @WholeParent (00:07):
Hello and welcome to the Whole Parent
Podcast.
My name is John.
I'm at Whole Parent on all ofthe social medias.
And this is my podcast where wetalk about parenting,
neuroscience, give youbrain-based solutions to all of
the common parenting problemsthat you might face.
For those who may be joining usfor the first time in a while,
(00:29):
the podcast has gone through abit of an evolution in the last
couple of months.
Boy, what two years ago when wewere starting to record our
first episodes.
Even though we are only onepisode 46, you can see that the
(00:50):
reason for that is actuallybecause for the last, we'll call
it a season, we called it seasontwo, we took the podcast in a
completely different directionwhere we did scripted episodes.
They were more interview-heavy,where I was interviewing guests
and experts.
And while that was a lot of funand those episodes are really,
(01:10):
really awesome, we are gettingback to our roots here and
talking about parenting, justanswering questions, just going
back to the basics and saying,okay, what questions am I
getting?
For those who may not know, Ihave a pretty large social media
following.
And in that social mediafollowing, as well as inside the
membership, I also have amembership, as well as on other
(01:33):
platforms where people messageme about my book, I also have a
book.
I will get questions all thetime.
And so this podcast is devotedto answering questions about
given topics and themes.
And today our theme is questionsrelated to siblings and
specifically sibling rivalry.
So if you have more than onekid, or perhaps you're planning
on having more than one kid inthe future, this might be a
(01:56):
great episode for you to listento.
As always, you can go like,subscribe, share this podcast
wherever you're listening to it,whether that's Apple Podcasts or
Spotify.
We're always trying to rack upthose five-star reviews so that
we can get pushed out to moreand more people.
We can get more and morequestions answered.
And hey, maybe I'll actuallyeventually start to make any
sort of income off of thepodcast instead of just doing it
(02:17):
for fun.
Uh, for those who are notwatching this podcast, but
rather listening to it, that'sthe overwhelming majority of
you.
Boy, what a difference a weekmakes.
Last week I said that I was backout on the porch for the first
time recording episodes in awhile, and it was pleasantly
warm.
It was probably 60 plus degreeson my porch.
Last week, the week ofThanksgiving, and man,
(02:40):
immediately after Thanksgiving,all of the temperature, all the
weather in Chicagoland, I livein Tinley Park, which is just
south of the city, southwest ofthe city.
All the weather just turnedover, and we got dumped on over
the weekend a couple inches ofsnow, probably more like eight
inches at this point.
So my weekend was spent plowingout with uh my dad's 15-year-old
(03:04):
snowblower.
So my dad has died, he diedprobably eight years ago at this
point, and I have his snowblowerthat he used maybe in the last
five years of his life.
My, you know, 12, 13,14-year-old snowblower trying to
get it to start again and thenclearing out all the snow from
my driveway.
My kids spent the time buildingeagle igloos and snowmen, and
(03:25):
this year snow dogs, which hasbeen uh the thing.
They've been making dog snowmen,which is uh a unique thing.
My son built an igloo out of abunch of deck chairs and plywood
and stuff that he found, coveredin snow.
And so that is where I've been,but that means that out on the
porch today it's more like 45degrees rather than 65 degrees,
(03:47):
maybe even less than 45 degrees.
I'm sitting under one of thoseinfrared heaters, uh the same
type that they use to warm upyour pizza when it sits out at
whatever pizza store for howeverlong.
When you're at a pizza shop andthey have all the cheese pizzas
or you know, different types ofpizza you can buy by the slice
and it's sitting under a heater.
That's that's what I am.
I'm just basically a gas stationpiece of pizza right now,
(04:08):
sitting out under here.
Uh, these are also the samethings that they have at the at
the train station.
I remember using these when Iwas in college, and I went to uh
college here in Chicago.
I didn't always have my car, andI was sitting out under these
things in the middle of thewinter, trying to get to and
fro.
But anyway, that's where Irecord the podcast from.
And uh I'm warm enough at leastto answer some questions about
(04:31):
sibling rivalry.
So let me jump right into thefirst question, and I call this
the earthquake moment question.
I don't know why I called itthat.
My my wife writes these out forme ahead of time.
She she organizes them and putsthem into a document so that I
can answer them fresh and cleanwithout uh having a bunch of
time to prepare.
(04:51):
And part of that is that I thinkit it just kind of comes off
better, and also uh I think thatyou it it's able we're able to
have a more natural feel and anorganic feel to these
conversations.
This is what I do in mymembership, by the way, about
once a month.
Sometimes I do it more thanthat.
Also, when I sell my course,which I think I'm gonna be
(05:12):
selling again pretty soon here.
When I sell my course, I do abunch of these group coachings
as part of that that areincluded in that.
But basically what I do everymonth inside the membership, and
I used to do it every weekinside the membership, is I just
get on a Zoom call with parentsand they just rapid fire
questions at me.
And sometimes it's a bunch ofpeople on the call and I have to
answer a question in fiveminutes, and sometimes it's not
(05:33):
very many people on the call,and I can spend 15 minutes on it
on a question.
But that's what I'm gonna doright now.
And my question, my first onecomes from Megan in Colorado.
She specifies, I don't know,people don't always tell me
where they're from, but Megan inColorado in this case probably
knows a little bit about snow.
Says, hi John, my two kids,seven and five, are so hot and
cold with each other.
(05:54):
That's what we were just talkingabout, hot and cold.
Okay.
One minute they're building anentire imaginary world together,
and next, someone is screamingbecause a Lego shifted one inch.
I get so triggered by the chaosbecause I grew up in a house
where arguments escalated fast.
I react like it's an emergencyinstead of normal development.
How do I calm my own nervoussystem so that I can coach them
(06:16):
instead of panicking?
Megan, I love this question fora lot of reasons.
The first reason that I lovethis question is that you're
framing it around what you cando, what you can control as the
parent.
And I can't tell you how often Igo back to parents over and over
and over, and I think I eventalked about this last week on
the podcast.
I have to go back and say, look,there is going to be things that
(06:39):
you just cannot control.
Kids are going to fight.
Kids do, they always fight.
This is just part of life.
It's part of development.
We can talk a little bit, andI'm sure we will get into this
with probably a differentquestion, although I don't know,
maybe I'll have to fit it insomewhere.
But one of the things that Italk about frequently when I
talk about siblings is thatsiblings are wired to compete.
(07:00):
And this is not that we shouldbe saying, oh, well, then we
should lean into that and weshould make them compete more,
or we should set up a tieredstructure in our home, and
everything should be acompetition.
Far from it.
They're going to compete anyway.
In fact, we can mitigate andlimit some of that competition.
It's probably going to be betterfor them.
But they're going to compete andthey're going to argue and
they're going to fight.
(07:21):
And just remember, when yourkids were being born, they
didn't choose to be born into afamily with siblings.
You probably didn't ask theirconsent, although maybe you did.
But you even if you did, theywere probably too young to
really understand what they wereconsenting to.
You didn't ask their consentbefore you brought another child
home.
You didn't ask their consentbefore you had your third or
(07:42):
second or third or maybe evenfourth, if you're like me, kid.
And so understanding that thesibling set that you have, none
of them agreed to be siblingswith one another.
They were born into that.
They didn't have, or perhapsadopted into that.
They didn't have a choice in thematter.
Unlike couples, where we choosewho we get to live with, we
(08:03):
choose who we get to love andcohabitate with.
And we know from massive amountsof research that something
between 30% and 50%, dependingon how you're measuring, of
marriages end in separation anddivorce.
And so understanding that 30 to50% of marriages end in
separation and divorce, and thatare those are the people that we
(08:24):
choose.
Those are the people who we haveintentionally made the call and
said, okay, you know what, Iwant to be with this person.
Our kids get no such choice.
And so we have to frame things,as Megan is doing here, around
the idea of things that we cancontrol, because what we cannot
control is how our kids arealways going to feel with one
another.
And they're not always going tofeel one way or another.
They are going to be somemeasure of hot and cold.
(08:47):
And what you're dealing with inthe case of a seven-year-old and
a five-year-old is two kids whooften seem like they have a
level of development that uhseems more like, let's say, a
teenager than like a toddler.
But that's not always the case.
You still have kids who haveunderdeveloped brains.
They lack deep skills forempathy.
(09:09):
A seven-year-old and afive-year-old can probably do
some perspective taking, and wecan talk a little bit about how
we can frame that.
They can probably do some theoryof mind activity of
understanding what anotherperson might be experiencing.
Those are the basics forempathy.
You have to have thatfoundation, the understanding
that other people thinkdifferent thoughts and they have
a different experience of theworld than you before you can
(09:29):
even have empathy, so they canhave some empathy, but they're
not going to have bottomless orlimitless empathy.
Again, adults don't even havebottomless or limitless empathy.
And so understanding that we cando some of that, but even in the
midst of that, there's stillgoing to be some measure of hot
and cold.
And some kids have differenttemperaments.
Some kids have different justkind of personalities, they have
(09:53):
different developmentalstructures.
You might have one kid who'sexplosive.
And when we talk about explosivekids, oftentimes what we're
talking about is a laggingdevelopmental skill for
emotional regulation.
And so when you could haveneurodivergence in this, and you
didn't mention that, but therecould be, you know, that compli
added complication.
And so when you combine all ofthese different factors and the
(10:15):
the with the fact that your kidsare still underdeveloped, it's
not surprising that they will bein an imaginary world together
and then suddenly be screamingat one another because, you
know, hey, he did that or shedid that, and you know, they're
going back and forth.
And you didn't mention genderhere, which is fine, because
actually, I think almost toomuch stock is placed into, well,
(10:37):
it's a boy and a girl, andthey're so different.
Um, no, in in relationships withone another, kids can kind of
fall into a variety ofcategories.
It's us who wind up pushing theminto those more typical gender
norms as their parents.
We say, well, you shouldn'tbehave like this, or or boys are
gonna just do this, or girls arejust gonna do that.
Um we don't need to go there.
(10:58):
So you're framing this, Megan,around what you can do.
And that was a long thing, uh,which is important to say
everything that I just saidabout siblings in general.
But what you're framing thisaround is what you can do.
How can you, in the midst ofthat chaos, not become
escalated?
And I think the first tip hereis to say that what Megan is
(11:20):
asking is the right question.
We, if we're ever going tointeract with our kids
effectively, we have to firstregulate ourselves.
There's really only been, in myat least from what I've been
able to find, there are chaptersof good parenting books about
siblings.
There are really only two goodparenting books that are
(11:42):
specifically about siblings thatI've been able to find.
If you have more, please uh sendthem to me.
I would love to read more aboutthis.
Uh, but I've spent some good agood amount of time trying to
research siblings, and one ofthem is Peaceful Parent, Happy
Siblings, which is the sequel tothe book Peaceful Parents Happy
Child or something like that, orPeaceful Parent Regulated Child.
(12:02):
I don't remember what it is.
But the author of that book uhframes her entire premise around
the idea that before we interactwith our sibling set, our kids
who are dysregulated with oneanother, we first have to
regulate ourselves.
And so, Megan, the first pieceof advice that I would have for
you, since you are alreadyasking the right question, and
(12:24):
that's usually my first piece ofadvice, is start asking the
right question rather than uhframing the wrong question.
If we don't start with the endin mind, we're gonna wind up
going down the wrong path.
But because you're alreadyasking the right question, I
would say, what are thosecognitive behavioral therapy
tools?
What are those emotionalregulation tools that you can do
in that moment?
(12:45):
Because more likely, more thanlikely, you don't have to jump
in in the moment to fix thatproblem.
You said it can I react likeit's an emergency instead of
that it's understanding thatit's just development.
Well, what can we tell ourselvesin those moments that we won't
(13:06):
dive in?
Because here's something that Ican promise you.
If you bring more aggression,more fear, more anxiety into a
situation with two kids who arealready bickering, fighting, um,
just you know, dysregulated withone another, that is only going
to add to that.
(13:27):
So, what I mean by that is thatwhen two kids are dysregulated,
they're kind of feeding off ofone another's dysregulation.
One thing that we know abouthuman beings is that our
emotions are easily likecontagious.
They're caught.
And so when you walk into a roomand everybody's anxious, you are
more likely, we know, to beanxious.
Even if you don't knowcognitively that the people in
(13:50):
the room are anxious or sad orwhatever, you can feel it
palpably in the body language.
We say something like 75% of allcommunication is nonverbal.
Some people say it's up to 80%or even 85% of communication is
nonverbal.
The communication that we bringinto a scenario with our kids is
always going to be based on ouractual lived experience.
(14:14):
And so you cannot fake it.
If you're feeling dysregulatedand anxious and feeling like
it's just like the end of theworld that your kids are
fighting, you are going to bringthat energy in.
And what's going to happen whenyou bring that energy in is that
it's going to become theirreality.
We call this a self-fulfillingprophecy.
What a self-fulfilling prophecyis, is it's when we make a
(14:36):
prophecy of what is going tohappen, like this is going to be
the end of the world, this isgoing to be so bad.
We actually wind up acting inways that force that to be true.
And so what we do in those casesis our kids start fighting over
the Lego shifting one inch.
We come in going, oh my gosh,you guys have to calm down right
now.
(14:56):
This is so anxiety-producing,and you everybody needs to be
quiet.
And our kids feel that and theygo, Oh, this is a much bigger
deal than I thought it was.
Chances are your kids areprobably not feeling like this
is the end of the world in thatmoment, even if they're reacting
in such a way where they'rereally trying to make their
needs met and felt, which isprobably what's happening in
(15:16):
this case, even if they arereacting or overreacting so that
they can make clear to theirsibling that they are not
pleased about, you know, eitherthe Lego moving or how they the
other sibling reacted to theLego moving, even if they bring
that in, they probably aren'tdeeply dysregulated yet.
Now, here comes a parent thatgoes, All right, you need to
(15:37):
stop fighting right now.
And what happens is the kids go,oh, this is actually more of an
anxiety-producing scenario.
This is actually more of aproblem than I think.
And so the best thing that wecan do in those moments is
actually first, nothing at all.
Now, if your kids are, you know,about to pick up, I call this
(15:58):
the the hammer or you know, thethe the you know, first do no
harm.
The the if your kid's likepicking up a hammer to swing at
their their sibling orsomething, you have to intervene
and you have to stop that reallybad scenario from happening.
But most likely that's notwhat's going on.
Even if they're just pullingback their fist to give their
sibling a knuckle sandwich orpushing them to the ground,
(16:20):
those are not things that aregoing to cause either child to
be hurt in any way that is notthe the normal bumps and bruises
of everyday life.
Am I saying that you should letyour kids beat up on each other?
Absolutely not.
But you that is still not anemergency.
The emergency is your kid picksup a hammer and starts swinging
at the other kid.
Your pick kid picks up a brick.
Well, I don't know why you havea brick laying around your
(16:41):
house, but occasionally I dobecause my kids will, I don't
know, bring a big rock in fromoutside that they thought was
cool.
And they start swinging it attheir sibling.
Okay, now that's an emergency.
You can intervene before you'reregulated.
But by and large, 90% ofscenarios, maybe more, 95% of
scenarios, whatever that'shappening, you can regulate
yourself first.
So first thing that you're gonnado, absolutely nothing.
(17:04):
This is effective in two ways.
One, they may work it out inthat moment, which is good
problem solving.
I'm not saying that they will,they may not.
In fact, uh if they're only fiveand seven, the chances are that
they completely work it out ontheir own every time is
(18:53):
basically zero.
But sometimes, you know, 10%,15% of the time, maybe even 25%
of the time.
And by the way, the more you dothis, the the more frequent
it'll become.
In those moments, they're justgonna work it out.
Okay, fine, you take that, I'mgonna go over here.
The separate, whatever.
In that case, you didn't have todo anything simply by allowing
them to navigate the conflictand then processing with them
(19:15):
later, you've done the mosteffective parenting of all.
But in other cases, they're notgonna be able to work it out,
but it's not life or death.
So they're still gonna befighting.
20 seconds later, when you sayto yourself, This is not an
emergency, I'm gonna take threereally deep breaths before I
engage.
(19:35):
I'm going to, and I'm justgiving you examples here, you
can do whichever one you want.
I'm gonna find something that Ican see, something that I can
hear, something I can smell,taste, touch.
I'm going to listen as carefullyas I can for a quiet noise off
in the distance.
I'm going to count backwards inthe uh with the alphabet, Z, Y,
(19:55):
X, W, all the way to A.
Whatever you're going to do,whatever cognitive behavioral
therapy technique that you wantto do in those moments, I'm
going to do some tapping, right?
This is another one that peoplecan do.
I'm not going to give you all ofthem, but I'm just giving you
some.
Whatever those things thatyou're going to do in that
moment to regulate yourself, theamount of time that that takes
(20:17):
you should be no more than,let's say, 20 seconds, 30
seconds, 40 seconds.
And what you're doing in thatmoment is you're interrupting
your own stress cycle.
What happens in those momentswhen you get triggered is that
immediately your body goes,There is something at risk.
This is an emergency.
This is a danger.
This is a survival situation forme or my child.
(20:39):
What you need to do is anygrounding or emotional
regulation exercise so that inthe next 30 seconds, that
sympathetic response, that'swhat it's called when your body
goes into fight or flight, thesympathetic nervous response
shifts and either is notfulfilled in that it it or not
(21:01):
it's not escalated in that youdon't say, yes, this is a
scenario where I should beafraid, and you let it
dissipate, or you actually dosome sort of, you know, vagal
simulation, which is what I'msaying with that is there's a
nerve, a the tenth cranial nerveis called the vagus nerve, it's
the largest cranial nerve in thebody, and and deep breathing and
things like that will activatethat, which then in turn
(21:22):
activates your parasympatheticnervous response, which is the
antidote to the all of thosestress hormones.
So your sympathetic nervousresponse, your kids start
fighting, you get flooded withcortisol, you get flooded with
adrenaline, then you take somedeep breaths, your
parasympathetic nervous systemkicks in, quiets down all those
hormones, and in the span of 30seconds, instead of jumping into
(21:43):
the scenario, you've actuallyjust become the regulating
force.
Now, we already said at thebeginning that whatever we bring
into that scenario, if we'rebringing in stress and anxiety
and fear and just beingoverwhelmed over stimulation, if
we bring that in, our kids aregoing to feel like, oh my gosh,
this is a big deal.
I need to worry about this.
The same is true if we bring incalm energy, what my wife calls
(22:06):
green energy, where we justenter that scenario and go, hey
guys, what's going on?
Let's let's fix this.
Oh, that really hurts.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry that thathappened.
Oh, that's so disappointing thatthat Lego got moved.
Then we can physically imposeourselves, not in an aggressive
way, but in a non-aggressiveway, to stand between our
siblings set so that thingsdon't come to blows if they
(22:27):
haven't already.
Separate them out and react oruh choose to respond rather than
react.
And then, once we get ournervous system under control,
then, as you said, we canactually coach them through.
But if we are panicking, wecannot coach them through.
So just remember my long, long,long, long, long-winded answer
(22:49):
here is you can do somegrounding exercises, you can do
some cognitive behavioraltherapy techniques, you can do
some deep breathing, you canjust pause for 30 seconds, 40
seconds.
You can say out loud toyourself, I'm safe, my kids are
safe.
You can say out loud toyourself, this is not an
emergency.
Any and all of those things thatyou're doing are helping you to
regulate yourself down so thatwhen you enter into that
(23:11):
scenario with them, they willregulate themselves down.
And even more importantly, youwill be able to navigate that
conflict without adding to thechaos.
So that's how I would enter thescenario first.
And then we can do whatever thenext questions are.
(23:31):
If that makes sense.
Okay, I'm gonna take a quickbreak, and then we're gonna go
on to caller or emailer orwhatever you want to call it,
number two.
Alright.
Question number two comes fromDan.
Dan says, Hey John, my kids aretotal opposites.
(23:55):
One is sensitive and easilyoverwhelmed, the other is loud
and impulsive.
Most fights feel like they'rereally about temperament.
I don't want to keep separatingthem, but they seem to set each
other off constantly.
How do I help the two completelydifferent kids find a rhythm
together?
(24:16):
Dan, I love how you're framingthis.
You have two kids who react inopposite ways.
The first piece of advice that Iwould have for you is it is one
thing to describe your kids,which is what I hear you doing
here.
You are describing theirtemperaments.
You are describing their uh wayof going through the world,
(24:38):
their personalities, perhaps.
Don't allow that to becomeprescribing.
Allow it to maintain and remaindescribing.
You might have one kid who isimpulsive and loud, another who
is sensitive and quiet.
You can know that about yourkids without constantly
(24:58):
reinforcing that that is theirexperience.
My guess is as your kids grow,one is going to remain more
sensitive, more easilyoverwhelmed, one is going to
remain more sensory-seeking.
So one's gonna remain moresensory averse, one's gonna
remain more sensory-seeking.
But my guess is in certainenvironments, the one who is
(25:19):
sensory averse might find thatthey are very sensory-seeking,
and in other environments, theone who is sensory seeking may
need a break, may need to stepaway, may need to go to a
calm-down corner or whatever.
Don't allow your descriptions ofthem to become prescriptive.
Because when we start to castkids into roles, we do the whole
(25:40):
competition thing much more.
The best thing that we can dofor our kids is just not compare
them to each other, right?
So don't compare your kids toeach other.
It's almost never helpful.
Oftentimes we think that it'sgoing to be helpful because
it'll be encouraging to theolder kid, the younger kid,
whatever.
Oh, you're this way, you're thatway.
Oh, you you're doing a reallygood job at this.
Oh, you're doing another goodjob at this.
(26:02):
You're just like your olderbrother, you're just like your
younger sister, whatever.
Almost always comparison is thethief of joy, as we say in the
therapy world.
Um, for kids, comparison isimmediately competition.
So I love that you'reidentifying how they are.
Let's continue to allow that tobe descriptive and not
prescriptive.
That said, the fact that you'reidentifying that most of their
(26:25):
fights seem to be abouttemperament, rather than one kid
trying to uh impose physicallyover the other or one kid
bullying the other, I thinkthat's helpful because it frames
this around development andtemperament.
Nobody is misbehaving, nobody'sbeing bad, everybody's just kind
of doing things to get theirneeds met, and sometimes the
thing that one child is doing toget their needs met is coming in
direct conflict with the otherchild trying to get their needs
(26:47):
met.
The best thing that we can do inthis scenario is to appreciate
the differences in our kidswithout comparing them, and then
try and find ways and avenuesand positive associations for
the relationship.
So rather than trying toconstantly navigate their fights
and be the referee and kind ofdo everything that we just
(27:10):
talked about in the first one,instead, what I would be doing
if I were you, and by the way,this goes for Megan and this
goes for who's my next person?
Lindsay as well, who's gonnacome up with her kids later.
Whatever you're doing, you'regoing to need to associate the
relationship with positiveexperiences.
So when we talk about the factthat kids are going to fight
(27:32):
because they didn't choose tolive with each other, because
they have underdeveloped brains,because they're thrust into this
relationship, whether they likeit or not.
When all of that may be true andmay continue to be true, what we
understand is that fighting isgoing to occur.
There's nothing that we can doto prevent all fighting.
There's not we can help our kidsnavigate that fighting, we can
help them navigate conflict.
(27:52):
And you know what?
We should probably have anotherepisode in the future where we
just talk about how to deal withthese different types of sibling
conflict.
What do you do when your kidsstart fighting beyond just
regulating yourself?
What do you do when your kidscan't share?
What do you do when your kidsargue over this, that, or the
other?
Your kids don't have troubletaking turns, or your kids, you
know, one kid is always gettingsomething that the other kid
wants, whatever.
(28:12):
The better thing to talk aboutnow, though, rather than trying
to play whack-a-mole with all ofthose different scenarios, is to
just say, how often do your kidshave positive association and
experience in the presence ofone another?
This can be through parallelplay, this can be through family
game night, as long as thatfamily game night doesn't become
(28:33):
hyper competitive.
This can even be throughwatching movies together or uh
sharing in other media together,assuming, again, that that
doesn't become a place where onekid always picks the movie, or
one kid has to sit through some,you know, movie or audiobook or
something that they don't enjoy.
So right now, my kids werereading out loud a lot.
(28:53):
That's what we've been doing asthe weather has turned cold.
We've just been narrating a lot.
And we have picked certain booksthat all of the kids like.
Now, is it everybody's favoritebook?
Of course not.
But it's something that both ofthe kids can enjoy while
simultaneously being in oneanother's presence.
We have certain games that wecan play.
(29:14):
We have a Nintendo Switch 1 thatwe've had for a long time, and
my kids almost never play it,but occasionally we'll pull out
Mario Kart or something likethat.
And we like to try and find,it's probably a bad example
because that's a competitivegame, although my kids don't
compete with it because um theytend to do like team races.
We will find ways where they canachieve together.
And if there's going to becompetition, if there's going to
(29:35):
be winning and losing, I alwaystry and frame that around them
winning and or losing together.
So they're winning or losingagainst mom and dad.
They're winning or losingagainst dad.
They're wrestling with me, butthey're on the same team.
They're not fighting with eachother.
And every time our kids have apositive association experience
with their sibling, a neuralpathway is reinforced in their
(29:58):
brain between, wow, I had areally fun time, and in the case
of my kids, you didn't name yourkids, Matt, my the oldest, was
there, if it was Ollie talking,or Matt might say, I had a
really positive experience.
And Liam and Margot, the twoyounger kids, were there.
And I cannot express howimportant it is to just say that
(30:19):
in the case of many siblings,almost all of the interactions
that they have are negative.
They never hang out with theirsibling in a positive way.
Every single interaction isabout who gets this and who's
getting that and who's right andwho's wrong.
And the more times our kids cometo negatively associate with the
uh the experience of living withtheir sibling, the more time
(30:40):
that they're going to findnegative things about their
sibling that they don't like.
And this is uh just part of thenature of the way that our life
is set up is that our kids havea lot of experiences together.
They spend a ton of timetogether.
And a lot of people think, well,that's just gonna lead to a ton
of fighting.
Actually, often kids need tospend more time together, not
less time together, more timefiguring out how to fund
(31:02):
together.
Because, as I said, some degreeof fighting is going to occur.
So, do my kids fight with eachother?
Absolutely, but the majority,51% at least, is my goal.
51% of their interactions are insome way positive.
Even if those interactions arenot directly with one another,
they may not even be with oneanother, but they may be
(31:22):
together at a bowling alley andthey may not be competing with
one another, or they may betogether.
That was a bad example.
We've like never done that, butthey might be together at the
library doing totally separatethings with one than one
another, but Hey, my sibling wasthere and I had a good time.
And that's that repeatedexperience.
My sibling was there and I had agood time.
My sibling was there and I had agood time.
As long as that outweighs mysibling was there and we were
(31:45):
fighting the whole time.
My sibling was there, and everysingle time they show up,
they're just such a nasty littlebum-blah blah blah blah and I
hate them.
The more time that we have thepositive experiences, the more
time we can benefit outweighthose negative experiences.
So, Dan, the challenge for youis going to be what are
experiences that these, asyou've said, opposites, the
sensitive one and the impulsiveone, the loud one and the
(32:08):
sensory-seeking one and thesensory averse one, what are
those experiences that can feelgood for both kids?
That's the challenge.
And what I would encourage youto do is go sit down with a
paper, paper, and pencil.
And I would literally writedown, okay, what are the places
where my kids have had funtogether in the past?
What are those experiences like?
You might not be able to findmany of them.
(32:29):
Okay, go back to your childhood.
What are some things that I liketo do when I was growing up?
For my kids, yesterday it wasplaying in the snow, right?
They just went outside with mywife, my oldest and my um second
youngest, the the second oldest,Oliver, he's sick right now.
He's downstairs with my in-laws.
He's sick right now, he's homefrom sick from school.
He didn't feel like goingoutside.
(32:49):
We didn't push it, we didn'tpress it.
You have to go outside, right?
We just said, okay, go outside.
And one of the things that myoldest, my nine-year-old, kept
repeating to my wife over andover while she was playing
outside with uh histhree-year-old little brother
and him, was he just keptsaying, Wow, mom, this is so
fun.
Well, every time he does that,he is building a neural pathway
in his brain.
Liam was there and it was sofun.
(33:11):
And now let me tell you,sometimes Liam being there makes
things not fun for Matt.
Sometimes Matt being there makesthings not fun for Liam.
Although this is less commonbecause as the older sibling,
the younger sibling tends towant to be around him more.
But he just said, kept sayingover and over, wow, this is so
fun, Mom.
And that's an example of a timewhen they're just building that
(33:34):
positive association.
So, Dan, that's your challenge.
Your challenge this week ortoday, right now, is to sit down
with that paper and pencil andwrite down the experiences that
they can have.
Some of those experiences,you're gonna be wrong.
They're gonna you're gonna sitdown with them, they're gonna
try and do this thing, and it'sgonna devolve and they're gonna
be fighting.
And then you just cross that oneoff the list and go, we don't
have to do that again.
Right?
You don't have to make a bigdeal about it, but we don't have
(33:54):
to do that again.
Let's find something else.
You might find that your kidsreally, really like doing one
thing or another thing.
Let me just say one thing beforeI'm done with this question and
move on to the next one.
They're the things that areoften billed as family bonding,
like I think the the greatestexample of this is the game
sorry from my childhood.
A lot of times they're billed,is like you watch the the ad for
(34:17):
that, or you see the the on thebox on the cover of the box,
there's this family and they'reall laughing and playing this
sorry game together.
Kids don't do well with gameslike sorry, which are
fundamentally about kind ofscrewing over the other person,
which I'm sorry to use that typeof language, but you know, just
just getting one over on theother person.
Kids are not gonna do well withthat because that's gonna be
(34:39):
very dysregulating for them.
So the challenge is find thingsthat aren't just cut constantly
grounded around how can I, youknow, beat my sibling.
Find things that are more fun.
Again, they can just be parallelplay, they can be playing with
Legos, but in the same room,whatever that looks like.
And I promise you, you're gonnafind so much good that comes
from that.
This is not a short-termsolution, Dan.
(35:00):
This is a long-term solution foranybody listening.
This is the type of stuff that Itell people to do when they want
siblings who are gonna betogether for life.
It's this is not like a quickfix, oh, you just do this, and
like the next time they fight,they'll never fight again.
Again, kids are gonna fight, butthis is how we build long-term
association in their brain thatcan lead to positive change.
All right, last question here,and it is about sharing,
(35:24):
according to my wife.
That's the note that I have.
Let me get into that after aquick break.
This one comes from Lindsay.
The question is this She says,Hey John, my six-year-old and my
four-year-old turn sharing intoa competitive sport.
Even if they have the same toy,if one sibling is holding it, it
(35:46):
becomes priceless.
I spend half my day breaking upbattles over things that no one
cared about five minutesearlier.
How do I teach them to sharewithout losing my mind over
these dramatic and ridiculousfights?
Okay, Lindsay, I probably shouldhave an entire episode devoted
to sharing, but I'm gonna giveyou a quick hit tip for sharing
that really can put a positivespin on sharing in general.
(36:11):
First thing that I would say isif you can pay close attention
and play hard with the kid whois not getting the turn, you can
flip sharing on its head.
Why?
Because kids would rather ourpresence and our attention than
that toy.
Even if they don't think in themoment that that's how they
feel.
I promise you, if you startplaying hard with whatever toy
(36:34):
your kid has in, you know, inassociate, you know, in instead
of that toy that they want, thattheir sibling is playing with.
Whatever your presence, yourattention is more valuable than
that toy.
And so very quickly, you canreduce the amount of sharing
fights almost instantly by justpaying attention and giving a
(36:56):
lot of credence and relationshipand attention to that one kid
who is not getting that sharing.
Now, you're not always going tobe able to do that, but that's a
really quick and easy way toreally turn sharing on its head.
Because all of a sudden that toywill be cast aside and your the
other kid who had the toy wantsto play with you as well.
And that's okay, right?
They throw the toy to the side.
(37:16):
You can then redirect your otherkid, hey, do you want to turn
with that while I play withthem?
And all of a sudden, you canjust really kind of flip that.
And if this is a common thingthat happens all the time, we're
gonna need to set up a betterpermanent solution.
But if you're just having areally quick, okay, we're out at
the library or we're out at thewherever, and we're having a
family gathering around theholidays, and they're both
(37:37):
fighting over one toy, and youwant to just quickly navigate
that, that's probably theeasiest way to do it.
The next thing is to set downsome sort of rules.
And maybe I should just have anepisode called Rules for Living,
uh, rules in a in amulti-sibling household.
But one of the rules that Ithink that you should set down
for sharing is actually whatobjects do not have to be shared
(38:00):
first.
Why do I say this?
Because with a six-year-old anda four-year-old, they're at this
time, this formational time,when they are finally
experiencing the true autonomy,what it is, you know, starting
school, starting preschool,whatever, to be their own
individual person with their owndesires and likes and needs and
wants.
Now, this has to occur beforethey can become empathetic
(38:22):
people who can perspective takeand say, oh, well, this is what
I want and need and would like,and now here's this other person
who's come along and maybe theydon't want the same thing as me.
But they first have tounderstand what's what they how
they exist in the world.
And part of understanding howthey exist in the world is
understanding what belongs tothem and what does not belong to
them, what is shared.
And this is something that manyadults never learned.
(38:45):
And as a result, adults getgreedy.
They want everything forthemselves because they can't
imagine having something that isshared.
They can imagine havingsomething that is just
collectively owned.
But in your home, you get tobuild whatever type of socialist
utopia that you want to.
Because guess what?
You're the one funding it.
So what I would say, and what Ihave done personally, and it's
(39:09):
been massively effective, isthat every single kid has a box
or a drawer in their room thatis their stuff.
And by when I say it's theirstuff, I mean this is
non-sharing items, nonegotiation over this.
If they have an item in that boxand uh their sibling really
desperately wants it, I'll buytwo of them.
(39:30):
Now you can see how expensivethis could get in a hurry,
except that their box isactually not very big.
So this is one of the topdresser drawers.
This isn't a big wide dresserdrawer.
This is, you know, a small,let's say, nine by nine dresser
drawer that maybe fits a littlebit more than a shoebox, and
like a you know, a medium-sizedbox.
I'm not talking aboutmedium-sized from the hardware
(39:51):
store.
Those are huge.
I'm talking, you know, a smallbox, something, you know, a
little bit bigger than ashoebox.
And anything that can fit withinthat box, that is their toy.
Now, it's some, and they canthey don't have to share that
toy.
If they want to play with thattoy for 100% of the day and
never give it to their sibling,that is their right.
And you might have to buy two ofthem, but again, they're small.
(40:11):
There are certain things thataren't allowed to go in that
box.
Like, like I said, we in ourhouse we have a Nintendo Switch.
The switch cannot go insomebody's box.
That's not fair.
But you know, a new toy thatthey got for their birthday or
for Christmas or something thatthey saved up their own money
for or something like that,those things can go in that box.
They also all have one stuffedanimal that is just theirs.
(40:32):
It doesn't have to fit in thebox, but it's just theirs.
Why do I say that it's importantto give them things that are
just theirs before theyunderstand sharing?
Because until a childunderstands what is only theirs,
that they do not have to share.
And by the way, before you say,well, you know, me and my
partner share the toaster, andme and my partner share the uh
TV, and me and my partnernavigate differences uh and and
(40:54):
share everything in our house.
We share everything.
Everything belongs to all of us.
Um no, it doesn't.
No, it doesn't.
Uh you don't let your partnershare with your phone.
Now maybe they need to use yourphone for this, that, or the
other occasionally.
Maybe your kids want to use yourphone for this, that, and the
other occasionally.
But by and large, if you'reusing your phone, if you're on a
phone call, your partner can'tjust walk up to you and take it
out of your hands and say, it'smy turn now, the timer went off.
(41:14):
You have stuff that belongs toyou that you don't let other
people touch either.
Right?
That's just part of life.
So don't think that this is thatyou're much better than your
kids in this way.
Uh your kids need to understandthat there are certain things
that belong to them that otherpeople can't just take without
their consent.
Now, once they understand thisprinciple that other people
cannot just take their stuffwithout their consent, now
(41:35):
everything that doesn't fit inthe box becomes something that
is shared.
In order to understand what isnot theirs, they first have to
understand what is theirs.
You see what I'm saying?
So giving them things that theydon't have to share
simultaneously makes it veryclear what is theirs and also
what is not theirs.
What is a sharing toy?
(41:55):
And my kids will fight with eachother over this sometimes when
they say, that's out of yourbox, that's a sharing toy.
Now, when it comes to who getsto use what when, this is a
matter of debate.
And I'm writing a book, I'mtrying to write the proposal for
a book about siblings right now,and there are different phrase
frameworks for this.
Can do we have terms, turns thatare a timer that's set and
(42:18):
everybody can abide by thetimer?
Are there turns that areunlimited in length, but they
reset after the end of the day?
There are different authors whohave different ideas about how
to do the sharing of the sharedstuff, but I promise you, the
first step is not actually anyof that.
It's not to create a timerschedule or a sticker chart
about who's good sharing.
The first step, by and large, isto just give them things that
(42:40):
they don't have to share andthen allow everything else to
fall into that category ofsharing things.
And overnight, almost,especially for the
four-year-old, but I would thinkfor the six-year-old as well,
overnight you're gonna see a lotof the frivolous sharing just
fall off.
Because really what kids aredoing when they're not wanting
to share is that they're saying,if I give this thing up and I
(43:00):
don't share it, I'm never gonnaget it back.
So that's their feeling, right?
That's that's their emotion,that's their fear.
They're experiencing what wecall loss aversion, which is the
tendency for the human mind togreatly overinflate the value of
losing something rather than thevalue of gaining something.
This is why if I told you, hey,if you uh go shoot that basket
over there, and it's a reallyeasy basket, right?
(43:21):
I'll give you$5, every singleperson would do that.
But if I said, but if you miss,I'm gonna take$5 from you, all
of a sudden, a lot of peoplewould not do it anymore.
Even though the value of it islike, well, is it a 50-50 shot
to make it?
Probably better odds that I'mgonna make it.
It's probably more worth my timeto uh to try it, at least, even
(43:42):
if I fail.
That's okay.
That's not how our brains work.
Overvalue losing something morethan gaining something else.
So uh the best advice that Ihave for you is to understand
that that's what's going on intheir brain, and then give them
things that they don't have toshare.
It's gonna make your life somuch easier than constantly
(44:04):
trying to have battles overevery single thing.
Have the non-sharing items andthen have the sharing items.
That'll be a huge thing.
And then the last piece ofadvice here, and I'm not gonna
give you the timer scenario orthe turns, and I'll do that in a
later episode, maybe onespecifically devoted to sharing
where I give you these differentoptions of ways to do sharing.
The last thing that I'll say isthe best thing in the world for
you to do after you've developedthis, these rules about sharing
(44:28):
and understanding why kids don'twant to share, is to speak in
that self-fulfilling prophecythat we talked about in the last
question, to self-fulfillingprophecy sharing, to say, you
know what, you're such a goodsharer to both of your kids.
Oh man, you're such a goodsharer.
Not just when they're sharing,even when they're not sharing,
even when it has nothing to dowith sharing.
(44:48):
You say, you know what I wasjust thinking about the other
day?
You're so good at sharing.
When when your little brother,your little sister wants
something, or when your bigbrother or your big sister wants
something, you always thinkabout what they're what they
want and you often will give itto them.
Now, this may feel likemanipulation, but really what it
is is that you're justmanifesting in them the
permission to be that person.
(45:11):
And understand what your kids,what you say to your kids
becomes their inner voice.
And so if you say all the time,you're great sharer, I know
sometimes it's hard, but really,by and large, you are a great
sharer, kid.
They're gonna come to associategreat sharing with me and what I
am, and I think about others,and I'm a caring person.
And so understanding that allowsyou to kind of speak that into
(45:34):
your kids' life.
And I promise you, along witheverything else we've talked
about today, that is going to beone of the most beneficial
things you can do.
Whatever you want your kid tointernalize about themselves is
the things that you're going totell them.
If you constantly tell yourkids, you're so bad, you're so
wild, I can never control you,you never listen, they won't.
Oh, you're always hurting yourbrother.
(45:55):
Why can't you just get along?
Why are you so mean?
They will be.
You're a great sharer.
I know it's hard sometimes.
I know patience can be reallychallenging for you, but you
have just as much a capacity toshare as everybody else.
And I believe in you.
It too will become true.
Okay.
That's what I have aboutsiblings today.
We've reached the end of ourtime.
(46:16):
But uh, as always, I just wantyou to all know that I think if
you're already listening tothis, if you've made it through
45 minutes of this episodealready, I promise you, I think
you're a great parent already.
And so if you have kids whofight, if you have siblings who
don't get along all the time, ifyou have siblings who struggle
to share, if you have kids whohave personalities that just
don't mesh, if you have kids whojust fight like cats and dogs, I
(46:38):
still think you're a greatparent.
And over time, if you do thisstuff, it's going to come to
fruition.
Remember, we're thinkinglong-term here, right?
We're not just preventing fightswhen they're in middle school or
grade school or when they'retoddlers.
That's a nice thing to havehappen.
And I hope that this advicehelps you to prevent many fights
in your home.
(46:58):
But really remember that thegoal here is how your kids
interact with one another fromthe ages of 30 to 90 years old.
Two-thirds of their life isgoing to be dictated by how they
view one another, not over whogets that toy right now.
And so I want you to parent inthat way, understanding that
(47:19):
excellent parenting leads tokids who can be lifelong
friends, even if they can't befriends right now, in this
moment.
It can still be positive.
Okay, I'll see you in the nextone.
Do all the things.
Take care, everybody.
(47:42):
Thank you again for listening tothis episode of the Whole Parent
Podcast.
If you are listening to thisright now, yes, you in your car
driving somewhere on a walk withyour kids, perhaps your kids are
melting down and you'relistening to this on your
headphones with the noisecancellation turned on.
Whatever you're doing whileyou're listening, doing the
dishes at night after your kidsgo to bed, I don't know.
(48:02):
That would just be me if I waslistening.
Stop right now.
I have three quick favors to askyou.
I promise they're not going totake you very long.
The first one, very, very easy.
Go in to wherever you'relistening to this podcast and
rate it five stars.
That's one, two, three, four,five stars.
The more five star reviews thatour podcast gets as we
accumulate episodes, the morelikely it is to be pushed out to
(48:25):
more parents who are searchingfor parenting podcasts to solve
their problems.
Whatever you got out of thisepisode, whether it was
something that to try with yourkids, whether it was a new way
to think about parenting, maybethis episode was not
specifically about a problemthat you're having, but you're
somebody in your life who'shaving this problem.
Go in and rate it five stars.
And if you have an additional 30seconds, that first one only
(48:46):
takes you 10 seconds.
If you have an additional 30seconds, just type a few words
for me to read.
I'd love to read, I'd love toread the reviews.
If there's something specificthat's helped you, write it out.
It helps me to know what weshould keep doing here on the
podcast, week in and week out.
The second question that I havefor you, or request that I have
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(49:08):
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Uh, it might be a parent,another parent in your kid's
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It might be a sibling who hasyoung kids, maybe it's your
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I know it's vulnerable to sharepodcasts with people who you
(49:29):
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But I promise you, so many ofthe people who listen to this
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You don't know if they listen toit or not, they might never
(49:50):
reply, but maybe, just maybe,they'll love the episode so much
that they become your newparenting partner out there in
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have just made your newparenting bestie.
The last thing that you can dois definitely the biggest ask
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(50:12):
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Paid subscriptions on Substackis the only way currently that I
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If it's not worth the price of acoffee for you, obviously don't
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(50:33):
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Those are the ways that you cansupport me.
And as always, I think thatyou're a great parent already.
But I do hope this episode gaveyou something to make you a
little bit better.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the Whole Parent
Podcast.
My name is John.
I'm at Whole Parent on all ofthe social medias.
And this is my podcast where wetalk about parenting,
neuroscience, give youbrain-based solutions to all of
the common parenting problemsthat you might face.
For those who may be joining usfor the first time in a while,
(00:29):
the podcast has gone through abit of an evolution in the last
couple of months.
Boy, what two years ago when wewere starting to record our
first episodes.
Even though we are only onepisode 46, you can see that the
(00:50):
reason for that is actuallybecause for the last, we'll call
it a season, we called it seasontwo, we took the podcast in a
completely different directionwhere we did scripted episodes.
They were more interview-heavy,where I was interviewing guests
and experts.
And while that was a lot of funand those episodes are really,
(01:10):
really awesome, we are gettingback to our roots here and
talking about parenting, justanswering questions, just going
back to the basics and saying,okay, what questions am I
getting?
For those who may not know, Ihave a pretty large social media
following.
And in that social mediafollowing, as well as inside the
membership, I also have amembership, as well as on other
(01:33):
platforms where people messageme about my book, I also have a
book.
I will get questions all thetime.
And so this podcast is devotedto answering questions about
given topics and themes.
And today our theme is questionsrelated to siblings and
specifically sibling rivalry.
So if you have more than onekid, or perhaps you're planning
on having more than one kid inthe future, this might be a
(01:56):
great episode for you to listento.
As always, you can go like,subscribe, share this podcast
wherever you're listening to it,whether that's Apple Podcasts or
Spotify.
We're always trying to rack upthose five-star reviews so that
we can get pushed out to moreand more people.
We can get more and morequestions answered.
And hey, maybe I'll actuallyeventually start to make any
sort of income off of thepodcast instead of just doing it
(02:17):
for fun.
Uh, for those who are notwatching this podcast, but
rather listening to it, that'sthe overwhelming majority of
you.
Boy, what a difference a weekmakes.
Last week I said that I was backout on the porch for the first
time recording episodes in awhile, and it was pleasantly
warm.
It was probably 60 plus degreeson my porch.
Last week, the week ofThanksgiving, and man,
(02:40):
immediately after Thanksgiving,all of the temperature, all the
weather in Chicagoland, I livein Tinley Park, which is just
south of the city, southwest ofthe city.
All the weather just turnedover, and we got dumped on over
the weekend a couple inches ofsnow, probably more like eight
inches at this point.
So my weekend was spent plowingout with uh my dad's 15-year-old
(03:04):
snowblower.
So my dad has died, he diedprobably eight years ago at this
point, and I have his snowblowerthat he used maybe in the last
five years of his life.
My, you know, 12, 13,14-year-old snowblower trying to
get it to start again and thenclearing out all the snow from
my driveway.
My kids spent the time buildingeagle igloos and snowmen, and
(03:25):
this year snow dogs, which hasbeen uh the thing.
They've been making dog snowmen,which is uh a unique thing.
My son built an igloo out of abunch of deck chairs and plywood
and stuff that he found, coveredin snow.
And so that is where I've been,but that means that out on the
porch today it's more like 45degrees rather than 65 degrees,
(03:47):
maybe even less than 45 degrees.
I'm sitting under one of thoseinfrared heaters, uh the same
type that they use to warm upyour pizza when it sits out at
whatever pizza store for howeverlong.
When you're at a pizza shop andthey have all the cheese pizzas
or you know, different types ofpizza you can buy by the slice
and it's sitting under a heater.
That's that's what I am.
I'm just basically a gas stationpiece of pizza right now,
(04:08):
sitting out under here.
Uh, these are also the samethings that they have at the at
the train station.
I remember using these when Iwas in college, and I went to uh
college here in Chicago.
I didn't always have my car, andI was sitting out under these
things in the middle of thewinter, trying to get to and
fro.
But anyway, that's where Irecord the podcast from.
And uh I'm warm enough at leastto answer some questions about
(04:31):
sibling rivalry.
So let me jump right into thefirst question, and I call this
the earthquake moment question.
I don't know why I called itthat.
My my wife writes these out forme ahead of time.
She she organizes them and putsthem into a document so that I
can answer them fresh and cleanwithout uh having a bunch of
time to prepare.
(04:51):
And part of that is that I thinkit it just kind of comes off
better, and also uh I think thatyou it it's able we're able to
have a more natural feel and anorganic feel to these
conversations.
This is what I do in mymembership, by the way, about
once a month.
Sometimes I do it more thanthat.
Also, when I sell my course,which I think I'm gonna be
(05:12):
selling again pretty soon here.
When I sell my course, I do abunch of these group coachings
as part of that that areincluded in that.
But basically what I do everymonth inside the membership, and
I used to do it every weekinside the membership, is I just
get on a Zoom call with parentsand they just rapid fire
questions at me.
And sometimes it's a bunch ofpeople on the call and I have to
answer a question in fiveminutes, and sometimes it's not
(05:33):
very many people on the call,and I can spend 15 minutes on it
on a question.
But that's what I'm gonna doright now.
And my question, my first onecomes from Megan in Colorado.
She specifies, I don't know,people don't always tell me
where they're from, but Megan inColorado in this case probably
knows a little bit about snow.
Says, hi John, my two kids,seven and five, are so hot and
cold with each other.
(05:54):
That's what we were just talkingabout, hot and cold.
Okay.
One minute they're building anentire imaginary world together,
and next, someone is screamingbecause a Lego shifted one inch.
I get so triggered by the chaosbecause I grew up in a house
where arguments escalated fast.
I react like it's an emergencyinstead of normal development.
How do I calm my own nervoussystem so that I can coach them
(06:16):
instead of panicking?
Megan, I love this question fora lot of reasons.
The first reason that I lovethis question is that you're
framing it around what you cando, what you can control as the
parent.
And I can't tell you how often Igo back to parents over and over
and over, and I think I eventalked about this last week on
the podcast.
I have to go back and say, look,there is going to be things that
(06:39):
you just cannot control.
Kids are going to fight.
Kids do, they always fight.
This is just part of life.
It's part of development.
We can talk a little bit, andI'm sure we will get into this
with probably a differentquestion, although I don't know,
maybe I'll have to fit it insomewhere.
But one of the things that Italk about frequently when I
talk about siblings is thatsiblings are wired to compete.
(07:00):
And this is not that we shouldbe saying, oh, well, then we
should lean into that and weshould make them compete more,
or we should set up a tieredstructure in our home, and
everything should be acompetition.
Far from it.
They're going to compete anyway.
In fact, we can mitigate andlimit some of that competition.
It's probably going to be betterfor them.
But they're going to compete andthey're going to argue and
they're going to fight.
(07:21):
And just remember, when yourkids were being born, they
didn't choose to be born into afamily with siblings.
You probably didn't ask theirconsent, although maybe you did.
But you even if you did, theywere probably too young to
really understand what they wereconsenting to.
You didn't ask their consentbefore you brought another child
home.
You didn't ask their consentbefore you had your third or
(07:42):
second or third or maybe evenfourth, if you're like me, kid.
And so understanding that thesibling set that you have, none
of them agreed to be siblingswith one another.
They were born into that.
They didn't have, or perhapsadopted into that.
They didn't have a choice in thematter.
Unlike couples, where we choosewho we get to live with, we
(08:03):
choose who we get to love andcohabitate with.
And we know from massive amountsof research that something
between 30% and 50%, dependingon how you're measuring, of
marriages end in separation anddivorce.
And so understanding that 30 to50% of marriages end in
separation and divorce, and thatare those are the people that we
(08:24):
choose.
Those are the people who we haveintentionally made the call and
said, okay, you know what, Iwant to be with this person.
Our kids get no such choice.
And so we have to frame things,as Megan is doing here, around
the idea of things that we cancontrol, because what we cannot
control is how our kids arealways going to feel with one
another.
And they're not always going tofeel one way or another.
They are going to be somemeasure of hot and cold.
(08:47):
And what you're dealing with inthe case of a seven-year-old and
a five-year-old is two kids whooften seem like they have a
level of development that uhseems more like, let's say, a
teenager than like a toddler.
But that's not always the case.
You still have kids who haveunderdeveloped brains.
They lack deep skills forempathy.
(09:09):
A seven-year-old and afive-year-old can probably do
some perspective taking, and wecan talk a little bit about how
we can frame that.
They can probably do some theoryof mind activity of
understanding what anotherperson might be experiencing.
Those are the basics forempathy.
You have to have thatfoundation, the understanding
that other people thinkdifferent thoughts and they have
a different experience of theworld than you before you can
(09:29):
even have empathy, so they canhave some empathy, but they're
not going to have bottomless orlimitless empathy.
Again, adults don't even havebottomless or limitless empathy.
And so understanding that we cando some of that, but even in the
midst of that, there's stillgoing to be some measure of hot
and cold.
And some kids have differenttemperaments.
Some kids have different justkind of personalities, they have
(09:53):
different developmentalstructures.
You might have one kid who'sexplosive.
And when we talk about explosivekids, oftentimes what we're
talking about is a laggingdevelopmental skill for
emotional regulation.
And so when you could haveneurodivergence in this, and you
didn't mention that, but therecould be, you know, that compli
added complication.
And so when you combine all ofthese different factors and the
(10:15):
the with the fact that your kidsare still underdeveloped, it's
not surprising that they will bein an imaginary world together
and then suddenly be screamingat one another because, you
know, hey, he did that or shedid that, and you know, they're
going back and forth.
And you didn't mention genderhere, which is fine, because
actually, I think almost toomuch stock is placed into, well,
(10:37):
it's a boy and a girl, andthey're so different.
Um, no, in in relationships withone another, kids can kind of
fall into a variety ofcategories.
It's us who wind up pushing theminto those more typical gender
norms as their parents.
We say, well, you shouldn'tbehave like this, or or boys are
gonna just do this, or girls arejust gonna do that.
Um we don't need to go there.
(10:58):
So you're framing this, Megan,around what you can do.
And that was a long thing, uh,which is important to say
everything that I just saidabout siblings in general.
But what you're framing thisaround is what you can do.
How can you, in the midst ofthat chaos, not become
escalated?
And I think the first tip hereis to say that what Megan is
(11:20):
asking is the right question.
We, if we're ever going tointeract with our kids
effectively, we have to firstregulate ourselves.
There's really only been, in myat least from what I've been
able to find, there are chaptersof good parenting books about
siblings.
There are really only two goodparenting books that are
(11:42):
specifically about siblings thatI've been able to find.
If you have more, please uh sendthem to me.
I would love to read more aboutthis.
Uh, but I've spent some good agood amount of time trying to
research siblings, and one ofthem is Peaceful Parent, Happy
Siblings, which is the sequel tothe book Peaceful Parents Happy
Child or something like that, orPeaceful Parent Regulated Child.
(12:02):
I don't remember what it is.
But the author of that book uhframes her entire premise around
the idea that before we interactwith our sibling set, our kids
who are dysregulated with oneanother, we first have to
regulate ourselves.
And so, Megan, the first pieceof advice that I would have for
you, since you are alreadyasking the right question, and
(12:24):
that's usually my first piece ofadvice, is start asking the
right question rather than uhframing the wrong question.
If we don't start with the endin mind, we're gonna wind up
going down the wrong path.
But because you're alreadyasking the right question, I
would say, what are thosecognitive behavioral therapy
tools?
What are those emotionalregulation tools that you can do
in that moment?
(12:45):
Because more likely, more thanlikely, you don't have to jump
in in the moment to fix thatproblem.
You said it can I react likeit's an emergency instead of
that it's understanding thatit's just development.
Well, what can we tell ourselvesin those moments that we won't
(13:06):
dive in?
Because here's something that Ican promise you.
If you bring more aggression,more fear, more anxiety into a
situation with two kids who arealready bickering, fighting, um,
just you know, dysregulated withone another, that is only going
to add to that.
(13:27):
So, what I mean by that is thatwhen two kids are dysregulated,
they're kind of feeding off ofone another's dysregulation.
One thing that we know abouthuman beings is that our
emotions are easily likecontagious.
They're caught.
And so when you walk into a roomand everybody's anxious, you are
more likely, we know, to beanxious.
Even if you don't knowcognitively that the people in
(13:50):
the room are anxious or sad orwhatever, you can feel it
palpably in the body language.
We say something like 75% of allcommunication is nonverbal.
Some people say it's up to 80%or even 85% of communication is
nonverbal.
The communication that we bringinto a scenario with our kids is
always going to be based on ouractual lived experience.
(14:14):
And so you cannot fake it.
If you're feeling dysregulatedand anxious and feeling like
it's just like the end of theworld that your kids are
fighting, you are going to bringthat energy in.
And what's going to happen whenyou bring that energy in is that
it's going to become theirreality.
We call this a self-fulfillingprophecy.
What a self-fulfilling prophecyis, is it's when we make a
(14:36):
prophecy of what is going tohappen, like this is going to be
the end of the world, this isgoing to be so bad.
We actually wind up acting inways that force that to be true.
And so what we do in those casesis our kids start fighting over
the Lego shifting one inch.
We come in going, oh my gosh,you guys have to calm down right
now.
(14:56):
This is so anxiety-producing,and you everybody needs to be
quiet.
And our kids feel that and theygo, Oh, this is a much bigger
deal than I thought it was.
Chances are your kids areprobably not feeling like this
is the end of the world in thatmoment, even if they're reacting
in such a way where they'rereally trying to make their
needs met and felt, which isprobably what's happening in
(15:16):
this case, even if they arereacting or overreacting so that
they can make clear to theirsibling that they are not
pleased about, you know, eitherthe Lego moving or how they the
other sibling reacted to theLego moving, even if they bring
that in, they probably aren'tdeeply dysregulated yet.
Now, here comes a parent thatgoes, All right, you need to
(15:37):
stop fighting right now.
And what happens is the kids go,oh, this is actually more of an
anxiety-producing scenario.
This is actually more of aproblem than I think.
And so the best thing that wecan do in those moments is
actually first, nothing at all.
Now, if your kids are, you know,about to pick up, I call this
(15:58):
the the hammer or you know, thethe the you know, first do no
harm.
The the if your kid's likepicking up a hammer to swing at
their their sibling orsomething, you have to intervene
and you have to stop that reallybad scenario from happening.
But most likely that's notwhat's going on.
Even if they're just pullingback their fist to give their
sibling a knuckle sandwich orpushing them to the ground,
(16:20):
those are not things that aregoing to cause either child to
be hurt in any way that is notthe the normal bumps and bruises
of everyday life.
Am I saying that you should letyour kids beat up on each other?
Absolutely not.
But you that is still not anemergency.
The emergency is your kid picksup a hammer and starts swinging
at the other kid.
Your pick kid picks up a brick.
Well, I don't know why you havea brick laying around your
(16:41):
house, but occasionally I dobecause my kids will, I don't
know, bring a big rock in fromoutside that they thought was
cool.
And they start swinging it attheir sibling.
Okay, now that's an emergency.
You can intervene before you'reregulated.
But by and large, 90% ofscenarios, maybe more, 95% of
scenarios, whatever that'shappening, you can regulate
yourself first.
So first thing that you're gonnado, absolutely nothing.
(17:04):
This is effective in two ways.
One, they may work it out inthat moment, which is good
problem solving.
I'm not saying that they will,they may not.
In fact, uh if they're only fiveand seven, the chances are that
they completely work it out ontheir own every time is
(18:53):
basically zero.
But sometimes, you know, 10%,15% of the time, maybe even 25%
of the time.
And by the way, the more you dothis, the the more frequent
it'll become.
In those moments, they're justgonna work it out.
Okay, fine, you take that, I'mgonna go over here.
The separate, whatever.
In that case, you didn't have todo anything simply by allowing
them to navigate the conflictand then processing with them
(19:15):
later, you've done the mosteffective parenting of all.
But in other cases, they're notgonna be able to work it out,
but it's not life or death.
So they're still gonna befighting.
20 seconds later, when you sayto yourself, This is not an
emergency, I'm gonna take threereally deep breaths before I
engage.
(19:35):
I'm going to, and I'm justgiving you examples here, you
can do whichever one you want.
I'm gonna find something that Ican see, something that I can
hear, something I can smell,taste, touch.
I'm going to listen as carefullyas I can for a quiet noise off
in the distance.
I'm going to count backwards inthe uh with the alphabet, Z, Y,
(19:55):
X, W, all the way to A.
Whatever you're going to do,whatever cognitive behavioral
therapy technique that you wantto do in those moments, I'm
going to do some tapping, right?
This is another one that peoplecan do.
I'm not going to give you all ofthem, but I'm just giving you
some.
Whatever those things thatyou're going to do in that
moment to regulate yourself, theamount of time that that takes
(20:17):
you should be no more than,let's say, 20 seconds, 30
seconds, 40 seconds.
And what you're doing in thatmoment is you're interrupting
your own stress cycle.
What happens in those momentswhen you get triggered is that
immediately your body goes,There is something at risk.
This is an emergency.
This is a danger.
This is a survival situation forme or my child.
(20:39):
What you need to do is anygrounding or emotional
regulation exercise so that inthe next 30 seconds, that
sympathetic response, that'swhat it's called when your body
goes into fight or flight, thesympathetic nervous response
shifts and either is notfulfilled in that it it or not
(21:01):
it's not escalated in that youdon't say, yes, this is a
scenario where I should beafraid, and you let it
dissipate, or you actually dosome sort of, you know, vagal
simulation, which is what I'msaying with that is there's a
nerve, a the tenth cranial nerveis called the vagus nerve, it's
the largest cranial nerve in thebody, and and deep breathing and
things like that will activatethat, which then in turn
(21:22):
activates your parasympatheticnervous response, which is the
antidote to the all of thosestress hormones.
So your sympathetic nervousresponse, your kids start
fighting, you get flooded withcortisol, you get flooded with
adrenaline, then you take somedeep breaths, your
parasympathetic nervous systemkicks in, quiets down all those
hormones, and in the span of 30seconds, instead of jumping into
(21:43):
the scenario, you've actuallyjust become the regulating
force.
Now, we already said at thebeginning that whatever we bring
into that scenario, if we'rebringing in stress and anxiety
and fear and just beingoverwhelmed over stimulation, if
we bring that in, our kids aregoing to feel like, oh my gosh,
this is a big deal.
I need to worry about this.
The same is true if we bring incalm energy, what my wife calls
(22:06):
green energy, where we justenter that scenario and go, hey
guys, what's going on?
Let's let's fix this.
Oh, that really hurts.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry that thathappened.
Oh, that's so disappointing thatthat Lego got moved.
Then we can physically imposeourselves, not in an aggressive
way, but in a non-aggressiveway, to stand between our
siblings set so that thingsdon't come to blows if they
(22:27):
haven't already.
Separate them out and react oruh choose to respond rather than
react.
And then, once we get ournervous system under control,
then, as you said, we canactually coach them through.
But if we are panicking, wecannot coach them through.
So just remember my long, long,long, long, long-winded answer
(22:49):
here is you can do somegrounding exercises, you can do
some cognitive behavioraltherapy techniques, you can do
some deep breathing, you canjust pause for 30 seconds, 40
seconds.
You can say out loud toyourself, I'm safe, my kids are
safe.
You can say out loud toyourself, this is not an
emergency.
Any and all of those things thatyou're doing are helping you to
regulate yourself down so thatwhen you enter into that
(23:11):
scenario with them, they willregulate themselves down.
And even more importantly, youwill be able to navigate that
conflict without adding to thechaos.
So that's how I would enter thescenario first.
And then we can do whatever thenext questions are.
(23:31):
If that makes sense.
Okay, I'm gonna take a quickbreak, and then we're gonna go
on to caller or emailer orwhatever you want to call it,
number two.
Alright.
Question number two comes fromDan.
Dan says, Hey John, my kids aretotal opposites.
(23:55):
One is sensitive and easilyoverwhelmed, the other is loud
and impulsive.
Most fights feel like they'rereally about temperament.
I don't want to keep separatingthem, but they seem to set each
other off constantly.
How do I help the two completelydifferent kids find a rhythm
together?
(24:16):
Dan, I love how you're framingthis.
You have two kids who react inopposite ways.
The first piece of advice that Iwould have for you is it is one
thing to describe your kids,which is what I hear you doing
here.
You are describing theirtemperaments.
You are describing their uh wayof going through the world,
(24:38):
their personalities, perhaps.
Don't allow that to becomeprescribing.
Allow it to maintain and remaindescribing.
You might have one kid who isimpulsive and loud, another who
is sensitive and quiet.
You can know that about yourkids without constantly
(24:58):
reinforcing that that is theirexperience.
My guess is as your kids grow,one is going to remain more
sensitive, more easilyoverwhelmed, one is going to
remain more sensory-seeking.
So one's gonna remain moresensory averse, one's gonna
remain more sensory-seeking.
But my guess is in certainenvironments, the one who is
(25:19):
sensory averse might find thatthey are very sensory-seeking,
and in other environments, theone who is sensory seeking may
need a break, may need to stepaway, may need to go to a
calm-down corner or whatever.
Don't allow your descriptions ofthem to become prescriptive.
Because when we start to castkids into roles, we do the whole
(25:40):
competition thing much more.
The best thing that we can dofor our kids is just not compare
them to each other, right?
So don't compare your kids toeach other.
It's almost never helpful.
Oftentimes we think that it'sgoing to be helpful because
it'll be encouraging to theolder kid, the younger kid,
whatever.
Oh, you're this way, you're thatway.
Oh, you you're doing a reallygood job at this.
Oh, you're doing another goodjob at this.
(26:02):
You're just like your olderbrother, you're just like your
younger sister, whatever.
Almost always comparison is thethief of joy, as we say in the
therapy world.
Um, for kids, comparison isimmediately competition.
So I love that you'reidentifying how they are.
Let's continue to allow that tobe descriptive and not
prescriptive.
That said, the fact that you'reidentifying that most of their
(26:25):
fights seem to be abouttemperament, rather than one kid
trying to uh impose physicallyover the other or one kid
bullying the other, I thinkthat's helpful because it frames
this around development andtemperament.
Nobody is misbehaving, nobody'sbeing bad, everybody's just kind
of doing things to get theirneeds met, and sometimes the
thing that one child is doing toget their needs met is coming in
direct conflict with the otherchild trying to get their needs
(26:47):
met.
The best thing that we can do inthis scenario is to appreciate
the differences in our kidswithout comparing them, and then
try and find ways and avenuesand positive associations for
the relationship.
So rather than trying toconstantly navigate their fights
and be the referee and kind ofdo everything that we just
(27:10):
talked about in the first one,instead, what I would be doing
if I were you, and by the way,this goes for Megan and this
goes for who's my next person?
Lindsay as well, who's gonnacome up with her kids later.
Whatever you're doing, you'regoing to need to associate the
relationship with positiveexperiences.
So when we talk about the factthat kids are going to fight
(27:32):
because they didn't choose tolive with each other, because
they have underdeveloped brains,because they're thrust into this
relationship, whether they likeit or not.
When all of that may be true andmay continue to be true, what we
understand is that fighting isgoing to occur.
There's nothing that we can doto prevent all fighting.
There's not we can help our kidsnavigate that fighting, we can
help them navigate conflict.
(27:52):
And you know what?
We should probably have anotherepisode in the future where we
just talk about how to deal withthese different types of sibling
conflict.
What do you do when your kidsstart fighting beyond just
regulating yourself?
What do you do when your kidscan't share?
What do you do when your kidsargue over this, that, or the
other?
Your kids don't have troubletaking turns, or your kids, you
know, one kid is always gettingsomething that the other kid
wants, whatever.
(28:12):
The better thing to talk aboutnow, though, rather than trying
to play whack-a-mole with all ofthose different scenarios, is to
just say, how often do your kidshave positive association and
experience in the presence ofone another?
This can be through parallelplay, this can be through family
game night, as long as thatfamily game night doesn't become
(28:33):
hyper competitive.
This can even be throughwatching movies together or uh
sharing in other media together,assuming, again, that that
doesn't become a place where onekid always picks the movie, or
one kid has to sit through some,you know, movie or audiobook or
something that they don't enjoy.
So right now, my kids werereading out loud a lot.
(28:53):
That's what we've been doing asthe weather has turned cold.
We've just been narrating a lot.
And we have picked certain booksthat all of the kids like.
Now, is it everybody's favoritebook?
Of course not.
But it's something that both ofthe kids can enjoy while
simultaneously being in oneanother's presence.
We have certain games that wecan play.
(29:14):
We have a Nintendo Switch 1 thatwe've had for a long time, and
my kids almost never play it,but occasionally we'll pull out
Mario Kart or something likethat.
And we like to try and find,it's probably a bad example
because that's a competitivegame, although my kids don't
compete with it because um theytend to do like team races.
We will find ways where they canachieve together.
And if there's going to becompetition, if there's going to
(29:35):
be winning and losing, I alwaystry and frame that around them
winning and or losing together.
So they're winning or losingagainst mom and dad.
They're winning or losingagainst dad.
They're wrestling with me, butthey're on the same team.
They're not fighting with eachother.
And every time our kids have apositive association experience
with their sibling, a neuralpathway is reinforced in their
(29:58):
brain between, wow, I had areally fun time, and in the case
of my kids, you didn't name yourkids, Matt, my the oldest, was
there, if it was Ollie talking,or Matt might say, I had a
really positive experience.
And Liam and Margot, the twoyounger kids, were there.
And I cannot express howimportant it is to just say that
(30:19):
in the case of many siblings,almost all of the interactions
that they have are negative.
They never hang out with theirsibling in a positive way.
Every single interaction isabout who gets this and who's
getting that and who's right andwho's wrong.
And the more times our kids cometo negatively associate with the
uh the experience of living withtheir sibling, the more time
(30:40):
that they're going to findnegative things about their
sibling that they don't like.
And this is uh just part of thenature of the way that our life
is set up is that our kids havea lot of experiences together.
They spend a ton of timetogether.
And a lot of people think, well,that's just gonna lead to a ton
of fighting.
Actually, often kids need tospend more time together, not
less time together, more timefiguring out how to fund
(31:02):
together.
Because, as I said, some degreeof fighting is going to occur.
So, do my kids fight with eachother?
Absolutely, but the majority,51% at least, is my goal.
51% of their interactions are insome way positive.
Even if those interactions arenot directly with one another,
they may not even be with oneanother, but they may be
(31:22):
together at a bowling alley andthey may not be competing with
one another, or they may betogether.
That was a bad example.
We've like never done that, butthey might be together at the
library doing totally separatethings with one than one
another, but Hey, my sibling wasthere and I had a good time.
And that's that repeatedexperience.
My sibling was there and I had agood time.
My sibling was there and I had agood time.
As long as that outweighs mysibling was there and we were
(31:45):
fighting the whole time.
My sibling was there, and everysingle time they show up,
they're just such a nasty littlebum-blah blah blah blah and I
hate them.
The more time that we have thepositive experiences, the more
time we can benefit outweighthose negative experiences.
So, Dan, the challenge for youis going to be what are
experiences that these, asyou've said, opposites, the
sensitive one and the impulsiveone, the loud one and the
(32:08):
sensory-seeking one and thesensory averse one, what are
those experiences that can feelgood for both kids?
That's the challenge.
And what I would encourage youto do is go sit down with a
paper, paper, and pencil.
And I would literally writedown, okay, what are the places
where my kids have had funtogether in the past?
What are those experiences like?
You might not be able to findmany of them.
(32:29):
Okay, go back to your childhood.
What are some things that I liketo do when I was growing up?
For my kids, yesterday it wasplaying in the snow, right?
They just went outside with mywife, my oldest and my um second
youngest, the the second oldest,Oliver, he's sick right now.
He's downstairs with my in-laws.
He's sick right now, he's homefrom sick from school.
He didn't feel like goingoutside.
(32:49):
We didn't push it, we didn'tpress it.
You have to go outside, right?
We just said, okay, go outside.
And one of the things that myoldest, my nine-year-old, kept
repeating to my wife over andover while she was playing
outside with uh histhree-year-old little brother
and him, was he just keptsaying, Wow, mom, this is so
fun.
Well, every time he does that,he is building a neural pathway
in his brain.
Liam was there and it was sofun.
(33:11):
And now let me tell you,sometimes Liam being there makes
things not fun for Matt.
Sometimes Matt being there makesthings not fun for Liam.
Although this is less commonbecause as the older sibling,
the younger sibling tends towant to be around him more.
But he just said, kept sayingover and over, wow, this is so
fun, Mom.
And that's an example of a timewhen they're just building that
(33:34):
positive association.
So, Dan, that's your challenge.
Your challenge this week ortoday, right now, is to sit down
with that paper and pencil andwrite down the experiences that
they can have.
Some of those experiences,you're gonna be wrong.
They're gonna you're gonna sitdown with them, they're gonna
try and do this thing, and it'sgonna devolve and they're gonna
be fighting.
And then you just cross that oneoff the list and go, we don't
have to do that again.
Right?
You don't have to make a bigdeal about it, but we don't have
(33:54):
to do that again.
Let's find something else.
You might find that your kidsreally, really like doing one
thing or another thing.
Let me just say one thing beforeI'm done with this question and
move on to the next one.
They're the things that areoften billed as family bonding,
like I think the the greatestexample of this is the game
sorry from my childhood.
A lot of times they're billed,is like you watch the the ad for
(34:17):
that, or you see the the on thebox on the cover of the box,
there's this family and they'reall laughing and playing this
sorry game together.
Kids don't do well with gameslike sorry, which are
fundamentally about kind ofscrewing over the other person,
which I'm sorry to use that typeof language, but you know, just
just getting one over on theother person.
Kids are not gonna do well withthat because that's gonna be
(34:39):
very dysregulating for them.
So the challenge is find thingsthat aren't just cut constantly
grounded around how can I, youknow, beat my sibling.
Find things that are more fun.
Again, they can just be parallelplay, they can be playing with
Legos, but in the same room,whatever that looks like.
And I promise you, you're gonnafind so much good that comes
from that.
This is not a short-termsolution, Dan.
(35:00):
This is a long-term solution foranybody listening.
This is the type of stuff that Itell people to do when they want
siblings who are gonna betogether for life.
It's this is not like a quickfix, oh, you just do this, and
like the next time they fight,they'll never fight again.
Again, kids are gonna fight, butthis is how we build long-term
association in their brain thatcan lead to positive change.
All right, last question here,and it is about sharing,
(35:24):
according to my wife.
That's the note that I have.
Let me get into that after aquick break.
This one comes from Lindsay.
The question is this She says,Hey John, my six-year-old and my
four-year-old turn sharing intoa competitive sport.
Even if they have the same toy,if one sibling is holding it, it
(35:46):
becomes priceless.
I spend half my day breaking upbattles over things that no one
cared about five minutesearlier.
How do I teach them to sharewithout losing my mind over
these dramatic and ridiculousfights?
Okay, Lindsay, I probably shouldhave an entire episode devoted
to sharing, but I'm gonna giveyou a quick hit tip for sharing
that really can put a positivespin on sharing in general.
(36:11):
First thing that I would say isif you can pay close attention
and play hard with the kid whois not getting the turn, you can
flip sharing on its head.
Why?
Because kids would rather ourpresence and our attention than
that toy.
Even if they don't think in themoment that that's how they
feel.
I promise you, if you startplaying hard with whatever toy
(36:34):
your kid has in, you know, inassociate, you know, in instead
of that toy that they want, thattheir sibling is playing with.
Whatever your presence, yourattention is more valuable than
that toy.
And so very quickly, you canreduce the amount of sharing
fights almost instantly by justpaying attention and giving a
(36:56):
lot of credence and relationshipand attention to that one kid
who is not getting that sharing.
Now, you're not always going tobe able to do that, but that's a
really quick and easy way toreally turn sharing on its head.
Because all of a sudden that toywill be cast aside and your the
other kid who had the toy wantsto play with you as well.
And that's okay, right?
They throw the toy to the side.
(37:16):
You can then redirect your otherkid, hey, do you want to turn
with that while I play withthem?
And all of a sudden, you canjust really kind of flip that.
And if this is a common thingthat happens all the time, we're
gonna need to set up a betterpermanent solution.
But if you're just having areally quick, okay, we're out at
the library or we're out at thewherever, and we're having a
family gathering around theholidays, and they're both
(37:37):
fighting over one toy, and youwant to just quickly navigate
that, that's probably theeasiest way to do it.
The next thing is to set downsome sort of rules.
And maybe I should just have anepisode called Rules for Living,
uh, rules in a in amulti-sibling household.
But one of the rules that Ithink that you should set down
for sharing is actually whatobjects do not have to be shared
(38:00):
first.
Why do I say this?
Because with a six-year-old anda four-year-old, they're at this
time, this formational time,when they are finally
experiencing the true autonomy,what it is, you know, starting
school, starting preschool,whatever, to be their own
individual person with their owndesires and likes and needs and
wants.
Now, this has to occur beforethey can become empathetic
(38:22):
people who can perspective takeand say, oh, well, this is what
I want and need and would like,and now here's this other person
who's come along and maybe theydon't want the same thing as me.
But they first have tounderstand what's what they how
they exist in the world.
And part of understanding howthey exist in the world is
understanding what belongs tothem and what does not belong to
them, what is shared.
And this is something that manyadults never learned.
(38:45):
And as a result, adults getgreedy.
They want everything forthemselves because they can't
imagine having something that isshared.
They can imagine havingsomething that is just
collectively owned.
But in your home, you get tobuild whatever type of socialist
utopia that you want to.
Because guess what?
You're the one funding it.
So what I would say, and what Ihave done personally, and it's
(39:09):
been massively effective, isthat every single kid has a box
or a drawer in their room thatis their stuff.
And by when I say it's theirstuff, I mean this is
non-sharing items, nonegotiation over this.
If they have an item in that boxand uh their sibling really
desperately wants it, I'll buytwo of them.
(39:30):
Now you can see how expensivethis could get in a hurry,
except that their box isactually not very big.
So this is one of the topdresser drawers.
This isn't a big wide dresserdrawer.
This is, you know, a small,let's say, nine by nine dresser
drawer that maybe fits a littlebit more than a shoebox, and
like a you know, a medium-sizedbox.
I'm not talking aboutmedium-sized from the hardware
(39:51):
store.
Those are huge.
I'm talking, you know, a smallbox, something, you know, a
little bit bigger than ashoebox.
And anything that can fit withinthat box, that is their toy.
Now, it's some, and they canthey don't have to share that
toy.
If they want to play with thattoy for 100% of the day and
never give it to their sibling,that is their right.
And you might have to buy two ofthem, but again, they're small.
(40:11):
There are certain things thataren't allowed to go in that
box.
Like, like I said, we in ourhouse we have a Nintendo Switch.
The switch cannot go insomebody's box.
That's not fair.
But you know, a new toy thatthey got for their birthday or
for Christmas or something thatthey saved up their own money
for or something like that,those things can go in that box.
They also all have one stuffedanimal that is just theirs.
(40:32):
It doesn't have to fit in thebox, but it's just theirs.
Why do I say that it's importantto give them things that are
just theirs before theyunderstand sharing?
Because until a childunderstands what is only theirs,
that they do not have to share.
And by the way, before you say,well, you know, me and my
partner share the toaster, andme and my partner share the uh
TV, and me and my partnernavigate differences uh and and
(40:54):
share everything in our house.
We share everything.
Everything belongs to all of us.
Um no, it doesn't.
No, it doesn't.
Uh you don't let your partnershare with your phone.
Now maybe they need to use yourphone for this, that, or the
other occasionally.
Maybe your kids want to use yourphone for this, that, and the
other occasionally.
But by and large, if you'reusing your phone, if you're on a
phone call, your partner can'tjust walk up to you and take it
out of your hands and say, it'smy turn now, the timer went off.
(41:14):
You have stuff that belongs toyou that you don't let other
people touch either.
Right?
That's just part of life.
So don't think that this is thatyou're much better than your
kids in this way.
Uh your kids need to understandthat there are certain things
that belong to them that otherpeople can't just take without
their consent.
Now, once they understand thisprinciple that other people
cannot just take their stuffwithout their consent, now
(41:35):
everything that doesn't fit inthe box becomes something that
is shared.
In order to understand what isnot theirs, they first have to
understand what is theirs.
You see what I'm saying?
So giving them things that theydon't have to share
simultaneously makes it veryclear what is theirs and also
what is not theirs.
What is a sharing toy?
(41:55):
And my kids will fight with eachother over this sometimes when
they say, that's out of yourbox, that's a sharing toy.
Now, when it comes to who getsto use what when, this is a
matter of debate.
And I'm writing a book, I'mtrying to write the proposal for
a book about siblings right now,and there are different phrase
frameworks for this.
Can do we have terms, turns thatare a timer that's set and
(42:18):
everybody can abide by thetimer?
Are there turns that areunlimited in length, but they
reset after the end of the day?
There are different authors whohave different ideas about how
to do the sharing of the sharedstuff, but I promise you, the
first step is not actually anyof that.
It's not to create a timerschedule or a sticker chart
about who's good sharing.
The first step, by and large, isto just give them things that
(42:40):
they don't have to share andthen allow everything else to
fall into that category ofsharing things.
And overnight, almost,especially for the
four-year-old, but I would thinkfor the six-year-old as well,
overnight you're gonna see a lotof the frivolous sharing just
fall off.
Because really what kids aredoing when they're not wanting
to share is that they're saying,if I give this thing up and I
(43:00):
don't share it, I'm never gonnaget it back.
So that's their feeling, right?
That's that's their emotion,that's their fear.
They're experiencing what wecall loss aversion, which is the
tendency for the human mind togreatly overinflate the value of
losing something rather than thevalue of gaining something.
This is why if I told you, hey,if you uh go shoot that basket
over there, and it's a reallyeasy basket, right?
(43:21):
I'll give you$5, every singleperson would do that.
But if I said, but if you miss,I'm gonna take$5 from you, all
of a sudden, a lot of peoplewould not do it anymore.
Even though the value of it islike, well, is it a 50-50 shot
to make it?
Probably better odds that I'mgonna make it.
It's probably more worth my timeto uh to try it, at least, even
(43:42):
if I fail.
That's okay.
That's not how our brains work.
Overvalue losing something morethan gaining something else.
So uh the best advice that Ihave for you is to understand
that that's what's going on intheir brain, and then give them
things that they don't have toshare.
It's gonna make your life somuch easier than constantly
(44:04):
trying to have battles overevery single thing.
Have the non-sharing items andthen have the sharing items.
That'll be a huge thing.
And then the last piece ofadvice here, and I'm not gonna
give you the timer scenario orthe turns, and I'll do that in a
later episode, maybe onespecifically devoted to sharing
where I give you these differentoptions of ways to do sharing.
The last thing that I'll say isthe best thing in the world for
you to do after you've developedthis, these rules about sharing
(44:28):
and understanding why kids don'twant to share, is to speak in
that self-fulfilling prophecythat we talked about in the last
question, to self-fulfillingprophecy sharing, to say, you
know what, you're such a goodsharer to both of your kids.
Oh man, you're such a goodsharer.
Not just when they're sharing,even when they're not sharing,
even when it has nothing to dowith sharing.
(44:48):
You say, you know what I wasjust thinking about the other
day?
You're so good at sharing.
When when your little brother,your little sister wants
something, or when your bigbrother or your big sister wants
something, you always thinkabout what they're what they
want and you often will give itto them.
Now, this may feel likemanipulation, but really what it
is is that you're justmanifesting in them the
permission to be that person.
(45:11):
And understand what your kids,what you say to your kids
becomes their inner voice.
And so if you say all the time,you're great sharer, I know
sometimes it's hard, but really,by and large, you are a great
sharer, kid.
They're gonna come to associategreat sharing with me and what I
am, and I think about others,and I'm a caring person.
And so understanding that allowsyou to kind of speak that into
(45:34):
your kids' life.
And I promise you, along witheverything else we've talked
about today, that is going to beone of the most beneficial
things you can do.
Whatever you want your kid tointernalize about themselves is
the things that you're going totell them.
If you constantly tell yourkids, you're so bad, you're so
wild, I can never control you,you never listen, they won't.
Oh, you're always hurting yourbrother.
(45:55):
Why can't you just get along?
Why are you so mean?
They will be.
You're a great sharer.
I know it's hard sometimes.
I know patience can be reallychallenging for you, but you
have just as much a capacity toshare as everybody else.
And I believe in you.
It too will become true.
Okay.
That's what I have aboutsiblings today.
We've reached the end of ourtime.
(46:16):
But uh, as always, I just wantyou to all know that I think if
you're already listening tothis, if you've made it through
45 minutes of this episodealready, I promise you, I think
you're a great parent already.
And so if you have kids whofight, if you have siblings who
don't get along all the time, ifyou have siblings who struggle
to share, if you have kids whohave personalities that just
don't mesh, if you have kids whojust fight like cats and dogs, I
(46:38):
still think you're a greatparent.
And over time, if you do thisstuff, it's going to come to
fruition.
Remember, we're thinkinglong-term here, right?
We're not just preventing fightswhen they're in middle school or
grade school or when they'retoddlers.
That's a nice thing to havehappen.
And I hope that this advicehelps you to prevent many fights
in your home.
(46:58):
But really remember that thegoal here is how your kids
interact with one another fromthe ages of 30 to 90 years old.
Two-thirds of their life isgoing to be dictated by how they
view one another, not over whogets that toy right now.
And so I want you to parent inthat way, understanding that
(47:19):
excellent parenting leads tokids who can be lifelong
friends, even if they can't befriends right now, in this
moment.
It can still be positive.
Okay, I'll see you in the nextone.
Do all the things.
Take care, everybody.
(47:42):
Thank you again for listening tothis episode of the Whole Parent
Podcast.
If you are listening to thisright now, yes, you in your car
driving somewhere on a walk withyour kids, perhaps your kids are
melting down and you'relistening to this on your
headphones with the noisecancellation turned on.
Whatever you're doing whileyou're listening, doing the
dishes at night after your kidsgo to bed, I don't know.
(48:02):
That would just be me if I waslistening.
Stop right now.
I have three quick favors to askyou.
I promise they're not going totake you very long.
The first one, very, very easy.
Go in to wherever you'relistening to this podcast and
rate it five stars.
That's one, two, three, four,five stars.
The more five star reviews thatour podcast gets as we
accumulate episodes, the morelikely it is to be pushed out to
(48:25):
more parents who are searchingfor parenting podcasts to solve
their problems.
Whatever you got out of thisepisode, whether it was
something that to try with yourkids, whether it was a new way
to think about parenting, maybethis episode was not
specifically about a problemthat you're having, but you're
somebody in your life who'shaving this problem.
Go in and rate it five stars.
And if you have an additional 30seconds, that first one only
(48:46):
takes you 10 seconds.
If you have an additional 30seconds, just type a few words
for me to read.
I'd love to read, I'd love toread the reviews.
If there's something specificthat's helped you, write it out.
It helps me to know what weshould keep doing here on the
podcast, week in and week out.
The second question that I havefor you, or request that I have
for you, favor, let's call it,is to share this episode with
(49:08):
somebody in your life who youthink could use it.
Uh, it might be a parent,another parent in your kid's
class.
It might be a sibling who hasyoung kids, maybe it's your
kid's teacher or a faith leaderin your life, whomever it is
that you think should have thisepisode of the podcast or any
episode of the podcast, send itdirectly to them.
I know it's vulnerable to sharepodcasts with people who you
(49:29):
might not have that close of arelationship with, or even more
vulnerable if you do have aclose relationship with them.
But I promise you, so many ofthe people who listen to this
podcast listened not becausethey followed me on social
media, but because they got apersonal recommendation from
somebody in their life who said,Hey, this guy has a way of
talking about parenting thatjust works for me.
You don't know if they listen toit or not, they might never
(49:50):
reply, but maybe, just maybe,they'll love the episode so much
that they become your newparenting partner out there in
the world, doing things the sameway that you are, and you might
have just made your newparenting bestie.
The last thing that you can dois definitely the biggest ask
for me, but it is to go over toSubstack.
That link is down below in thebio, and to subscribe so that
(50:12):
these episodes can keep comingto you.
Paid subscriptions on Substackis the only way currently that I
am being funded here on theWhole Parent Podcast.
That is the only money that Ireceive.
It is$5 a month.
I think that this podcast isworth the price of a coffee for
you.
If it's not worth the price of acoffee for you, obviously don't
do it.
But if you're extra cheap likeme, you can just subscribe
(50:33):
annually.
I know that you're gonna listenfor the rest of the year.
If you know that you're gonnalisten for the rest of the year,
just give me 50 bucks up front,and then you don't have to think
about it coming out of yourcredit card every single month.
Those are the ways that you cansupport me.
And as always, I think thatyou're a great parent already.
But I do hope this episode gaveyou something to make you a
little bit better.
Take care.
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