January 23, 2025 • 40 mins
Resources Mentioned:
Punishment Free-Parenting
The Way of Play
Emotional Regulation Game Guide
Traditional Parenting Fails for ADHD Kids.
Growing up with ADHD this is the episode I wish my parents had...
In this episode, I’m sharing why traditional, compliance-based parenting doesn’t work for kids with ADHD and what we can do instead. I sat down with Dr. Josh Wyner and Dr. Tina Payne Bryson—two incredible experts—to break down the science behind ADHD and offer practical, brain-based strategies you can start using today.
We talk about identifying ADHD in kids, what’s really happening in the ADHD brain, why traditional parenting (aka compliance and punishments) backfire. We also give an alternatives: collaboration, creativity, and especially play to completely transform your relationship with your ADHD child.
This episode is personal, practical, and, I hope, incredibly helpful for anyone raising an ADHD kid—or even just trying to parent differently.
What You'll Learn in This Episode:
- Why traditional parenting strategies fail kids with ADHD.
- How understanding emotional tagging and time blindness can change your perspective on ADHD behaviors.
- Three practical strategies to connect with ADHD kids: collaborative problem-solving, fostering autonomy, and using play to build essential skills.
- BONUS: An exclusive never before heard exerpt from my upcoming book Punishment-Free Parenting
Featured Guests:
- Dr. Josh Wyner: Neuroscientist and founder of Willow Family Health, a nonprofit focused on neurodiversity-affirming mental health care.
- Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Co-author of The Whole-Brain Child and The Way of Play—and one of the most compassionate voices in parenting today.
My Key Takeaways:
- ADHD isn’t about laziness or bad behavior—it’s about brain's placing different emotional value on things. Understanding those differences is the first step to parenting with empathy.
- Collaboration is everything. When we involve our kids in problem-solving, we’re building lifelong skills and deeper connections.
- Play isn’t just for fun; it’s one of the most effective ways to help ADHD kids build impulse control, emotional regulation, and attention skills.
Call to Action:
If this episode resonates with you, I’d love for you to preorder my book, Punishment-Free Parenting. It’s packed with practical tools and real stories, just like this episode, and it’s designed to help you parent with more connection and less stress—whether your child has ADHD or not.
Thanks for listening to The Whole Parent Podcast! If you found this episode helpful, share it with a friend or on social media—I’d love to keep this conversation going.
Follow Us:
@drjoshuawyner
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon @wholeparent (00:00):
Welcome to the Whole Parent Podcast.
My name is John.
I think the first time Irealized that there was
something different about methan other kids was first grade.
Back then I thought I was justbad at being a person Not bad in
a dramatic movie villain typeof way.
Bad in the small, unremarkableways that make you wonder if
(00:20):
you're just weird, like how Iwas the only one who got in
trouble for not being able tosit still during reading time,
or how my handwriting wastotally illegible, or how I
could never remember whichspelling list we were on, even
though everyone else seemed toknow this.
One time my first grade teacher, mrs Amos, handed me a sheet of
graph paper that I was supposedto write consecutive numbers on
one to a hundred.
(00:41):
She said that it was due by theend of the day.
I stared at it like I hadn'tunderstood her.
I had, it wasn't hard, but Ijust couldn't start.
I sat there tapping my pencilagainst the desk, distracting
other kids, feeling the secondsslip by.
By the end of the day I'dwritten seven numbers, seven.
(01:02):
A couple of months later, allof the other kids had five or
ten sheets of graph paper alltaped together, their numbers
tallying up into the thousands,I was still on my first sheet.
It wasn't that I was lazy orindifferent.
In fact, I almost cared toomuch.
I cared so much that every timeI failed which felt like every
(01:23):
day it felt suffocating,overwhelming.
I was the kid who couldn't keepup.
By the time I was in middleschool, my life was a blur of
missed assignments, forgottengym clothes and half-finished
science project that livedeternally incomplete.
My parents would sigh and saythings like why don't you just
plan?
I tried harder.
I even started to finish thehomework, but then I wouldn't
(01:45):
turn it in.
Every assignment felt like Iwas standing at the bottom of a
giant staircase looking up.
I couldn't make my legs move,while everyone else seemed to
just fly to the top.
Once in sixth grade, I forgot mymath homework for five days in
a row.
It was a clean sweep for theweek.
My teacher I can't evenremember her name called me to
(02:05):
her desk after class and saidyou're smart, but you have to
focus.
You know this stuff, just payattention.
I nodded, demoralized.
What could I say?
In seventh grade, I wasdiagnosed with what was called
then ADD attention deficitdisorder.
Today we call it ADHDinattentive type, if you want to
(02:27):
be specific.
I got accommodations andmedications and the results
improved, but I still waiteduntil the last few days of May
of my junior year of high schoolto start on the big junior
research paper that we wereassigned in October.
The truth is, more than themeds or the extra time, it was
the fact that in middle school,I had been given another word, a
(02:48):
word other than lazy, todescribe why I struggled, and
that alone made things better.
But even so, my parents didn'tget it.
My dad still freaked out when Imissed stuff and yelled that I
needed to try harder.
My mom still made excuses anddefended me to teachers, without
ever actually understanding.
It wasn't until I was 30,having spent more than half of
my life in formal school, that Ifinally understood what it
(03:10):
meant to be a kid with ADHD.
On this episode of the WholeParent Podcast, we're answering
one simple question why doesn'ttraditional parenting work for
kids with ADHD, and what can wedo that will work for kids with
ADHD?
And what can we do that will Alot of people have advice about
what works for kids with ADHD Ifyou have a child with ADHD who
(03:33):
struggles to listen.
Dr. Josh Wyner (03:34):
The four best things you can do to help your
child with ADHD.
Jon @wholeparent (03:37):
Number one ADHD parenting tip.
Here are five tips when yourchild has ADHD.
If you're a mom with an ADHDkid, then this video is for you.
Some of that advice comes fromexperts and is grounded in
research.
Act, don't yak.
Dr. Josh Wyner (03:53):
The more you blather, the more you natter.
The more you nag, the lessinfluence you have.
I'm going to explain whypunishments don't work and what
you should do instead.
Jon @wholeparent (04:03):
Some is not.
Dr. Josh Wyner (04:04):
Two supplements that kept my daughter off of
ADHD medicine.
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (04:07):
Do the exact same thing with kids, with
.
Jon @wholeparent (04:09):
ADHD and ODD.
They are no different.
They are exactly the same.
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (04:13):
In today's society, a lot of people
are susceptible to get ADHDbecause they have bad diets.
Jon @wholeparent (04:20):
With all of the conflicting information, it
can be hard to know if your kidactually has ADHD, much less
what you're actually going to doabout it if they do.
I'm not going to lie, I'vehesitated to talk about ADHD on
social media or on the podcast.
I'm not a psychologist or apsychiatrist or even a person
who has studied ADHD.
All that much I just don't wantto add to the noise.
(04:40):
But on season two we're pushingboundaries, and so I had a
conversation this week with twoexperts.
First is Dr Joshua Weiner.
We call him Dr Josh.
He's a clinical neuroscientist,program chair of marriage and
family therapy at the ChicagoSchool and founder and executive
director of Willow FamilyHealth, a nonprofit counseling
center dedicated to providingneurodiversity-affirming mental
(05:02):
health services to families inneed.
Then, later on in the episode,we have Dr Tina Payne Bryson,
founder and director of theCenter for Connection and
Neurodiversity and co-author ofnot one but two New York Times
best-selling parenting books.
With their help, we're going totry to one learn some telltale
signs that parents can use tomake a reasonable guess at
whether their kid has ADHD.
(05:23):
Two, deconstruct some harmfulmyths about ADHD, including why
traditional parenting usuallybackfires.
And then three, implement threepractical tips that we can use
for parenting kids with ADHD.
If there is any chance that youthink your kid has ADHD, you
are not going to want to missthis.
You are not going to want tomiss this.
(05:47):
So the first step in learninghow to parent a child with ADHD
is actually determining whetheryour child has ADHD, and recent
studies show it's actually waymore common than you might
expect.
According to the CDC, rates ofADHD diagnosis in kids have
risen dramatically in the lastdecade.
In their last report from 2022,rates of ADHD diagnosis in kids
have risen dramatically in thelast decade.
(06:08):
In their last report from 2022,it showed that over 7 million
kids in the US that's one innine have been diagnosed with
ADHD.
That's more than a million morekids from the previous report
in 2016.
Of those more than 7 million, alittle more than half of them
were already on medication and alittle less than half of them
had already received some formof formal behavioral
intervention.
(06:28):
That said, as a parent, it canstill be hard to know.
A lot of that is because wedon't even really understand how
ADHD manifests in kids, what'sgoing on in their brain.
Here's what Dr Josh had to sayabout that.
Dr. Josh Wyner (06:41):
When we talk about ADHD, what we're really
talking about is what we callemotional tags.
So I'm sitting here, we'retalking and I want to talk to
you.
You're emotionally valuable tome.
To talk to, that matters.
I want, maybe I don't know ifI'm hungry, maybe that's
emotionally important to me.
(07:02):
I'm thinking, oh, I can payattention to you, maybe I run
off and get a snack.
Or if I had to go to thebathroom, that's going to be
valuable to me.
Or I know there's somethingcoming any moment that I have to
worry about at the door.
Those matter.
But what's happening outside mydoor?
Not necessarily important to me.
(07:23):
What color the wall is behindme not important to me.
I'm not even thinking about it.
So the choices that I've beenpresented with are pay attention
and talk to you, go get somefood, go to the bathroom, worry
about whether the doorbell isgoing to ring, and then I choose
between those choices.
So each of those has anemotional tag.
(07:45):
Then you take your ADHD kidright.
They're sitting there and,unlike that neurotypical
experience you have, all ofthose have emotional value, but
that emotional value is less forthem than for your neurotypical
person, for them than for yourneurotypical person.
(08:07):
Each of those tags I justrepresented have reduced
emotional value.
And then now what's going onoutside?
Maybe it had that little bit ofvalue, maybe the color of my
wall is kind of interesting.
Well, now I've got six things tochoose from.
That's the better descriptionof ADHD.
So if one of those talking toyou happens to be bigger than
(08:28):
the others and I focus on you,and then all of a sudden
somebody comes to the door and Idon't even notice it because
I'm talking to you, you say, oh,you're ADHD, you're hyper
fixating.
Well, you know, that was thething that mattered, the others
don't.
Or I switch between them reallyquickly and you're like, oh,
look, how the thing thatmattered, the others don't.
Or I switch between them reallyquickly and you're like, oh,
look, how hyperactive you are.
(08:49):
Again, same thing, right.
And we can go through all theothers inattentive and
everything else.
That's all that's happening is,all of those emotional tags are
reduced and now, depending onyour experience of that
reduction, you express it inthese different ways, right?
(09:10):
So if you understand it fromthat perspective instead, then
you can start to unravel a lotof the myths and
misunderstandings.
Jon @wholeparent (09:18):
Okay.
So that kind of leads me to mysecond question, which is what
are some of the outdated ordamaging myths that you hear out
, just kind of said parents thathave come to you, or just out
in public, when people talkabout ADHD, what are they
getting wrong and how is itharmful to our kids if we adopt
or internalize those things?
Dr. Josh Wyner (09:38):
The worst is they're lazy.
Just try harder or just make alist, right, that's.
That's.
That's a favorite that you hearfrom a lot of folks as they
come in and say, well, if youjust made a list of things you
could do and you followed thelist, then you'd be fine.
But you're so lazy that youwon't even do that and the
consequence is we actually havea word for it is demoralized.
(10:02):
So what will happen is an ADHD,especially an adult, will come
into the office and they'll sayI'm depressed.
And you'll say explain, what doyou mean by depressed?
Well, I'm just such a shittyperson.
I do everything wrong.
I can never follow through withanything.
I'm just bad at life.
That's not quite depression, isit?
No, you're demoralized.
(10:22):
You've been told you're lazy,you're not good enough, and
you've taken that in now as fact.
Jon @wholeparent (10:29):
Yeah, I'm smiling because I did not intend
to go to therapy right now, butthat feels dangerously close to
my experience of the world andI am a person who I've had some
success with making lists, whenI can actually determine that
making the list is the rightthing to do, of course.
But I've had some success offollowing the list because there
(10:50):
is an inattentiveness and alook, the next thing can come up
and I can just be distracted.
I can just move on to that.
I can just move on to that, andso I found that lists are
helpful.
Dr. Josh Wyner (11:00):
And I think they can be helpful if they're yours
Because notice what you said Idecided to make the list, which
means you tagged the list withsome emotional value, of course.
Jon @wholeparent (11:18):
Okay, let's pause for a moment and think
about that.
We'll come back to the partabout lists at the end of the
episode, but let's considerfirst what he said before that.
What Dr Josh is saying here isthat, for kids with ADHD,
labeling their struggles aslaziness, far from encouraging
them to improve, actuallydemoralizes them.
It causes them to adopt aself-image that's grounded in
(11:38):
their inadequacies rather thantheir inherent value.
This really shouldn't surpriseus.
One of the things I talk aboutextensively in my book,
something that we talk about onthe podcast all the time, is how
our words about our kids becometheir inner voice, that our
perception of them shapes theirperception of themselves, and so
(11:58):
when we call our ADHD kids lazy, they believe us, not because
it's true, but because we aretheir parents, and they're more
likely to act in accordance withthat self-critical mindset as a
result.
But how do we know that if thatexperience of having diminished
value for emotional tags, asJosh called it, is actually
what's going on with our kid?
Dr. Josh Wyner (12:19):
Yeah, I think with ADHD there's a lot of
misunderstanding about what isactually happening for the kid.
So, in a very short form, ifyou notice that your child is
able to do things like mostchildren can do, that really
(12:40):
engage them, that they find thatthey're really interested in,
right, and that's a normal humanthing too.
Of course we do the stuff welike, but when it comes to the
stuff that they are notconnected to, there is an
exceptional struggle to engagewith it.
That is the first clue.
(13:01):
So it's not so much directlyabout attention and
hyperactivity those words thatgo with the name as much as that
connection to the thing thatwe're trying to engage with.
If we go back to the model thatI appreciate from Russell
Barkley, he will talk about itfrom the perspective of time.
(13:22):
So rather than saying, let'stalk about attention, can you
pay attention?
Are you hyper fixated orhyperactive or are you
inattentive?
Instead of talking about thosepotential symptoms, he will talk
about your sense of time.
Are you what he would call timeblind or nearsighted?
(13:42):
In time He'll say temporarilymyopic, but that seems like a
big mouthful.
Are you very focused in what'shappening in the present, often
at the expense of the future,even the near future.
The kid is doing somethingwhere you're looking and you're
like hey, don't you realize thatif you do that thing, if you go
(14:04):
and play with those Legos afterwe've talked about how you need
to put them down or else goingto have to take them away and
they can't disconnect from it,even in that moment where the
consequence is like 10 secondsin the future, that's not that
far Right.
Here's a timer, ten nine Right,and they're like whatever Legos
.
Now we're potentially in thattime blind mode.
Jon @wholeparent (14:31):
So now that we've determined what ADHD
actually looks like in kids andwhat actually is going on in our
kids' brains who have ADHD, wehave to figure out how, as
parents, we're supposed to dealwith that.
How are we supposed to parentkids with ADHD?
Maybe it's obvious at thispoint, but the answer is not
traditional, authoritarianparenting.
When I say traditionalparenting, what I'm talking
(14:53):
about here is parenting thatemphasizes strict adherence to
rules, unquestioned obedienceand high expectations for
compliance, without negotiationor explanation.
It usually relies on some sortof hierarchical structure where
the parent holds ultimateauthority and the child is
expected to follow directionswithout discussion.
Expected to follow directionswithout discussion.
Discipline in this approach isoften punitive, using fear,
(15:22):
shame or well punishments toenforce what they call good
behavior.
If you were raised like this,how most of us were raised, you
know that emotional expressionand individual autonomy are not
usually encouraged.
Compliance and even convenienceare prioritized, while
fostering understanding orconnection are just not the
focus in traditional parentingis less about guiding a child's
emotional development orunderstanding the reason behind
(15:43):
their behavior, and more aboutshaping their immediate actions
to align with the parent'sexpectations, and that just
doesn't work for kids with ADHD,which actually leads us to our
tip number one.
If you have a kid with ADHD,you have to ditch traditional
parenting.
Dr. Josh Wyner (16:01):
With ADHD, there is going to be more of a
disconnect between thequote-unquote value of complying
and doing the task, Becausethere's other things that have
more positive value.
One of my favorite examples iswith ADHD, you often have
something that's calledinveracity, meaning the child
(16:23):
will say something that's nottrue, but it's not a lie in the
way we mean it normally, becauseit's more reflexive.
They're often not even aware ithappened and so, for example,
the parent will say clean yourroom, and the kid will be
playing a video game and they'llsay, sure, Right, and they
won't even register that theyactually were asked to clean the
room.
And then later the parent willsay did you clean your room?
(16:44):
Yep, Right, and they're playingtheir game Like no, they didn't
, but they won't actuallyremember saying yep, and then
the parent will come in and saywhat the hell?
And they start screaming and wehave a whole thing and the kid
will be.
I don't.
Genuinely, I don't know whatyou're talking about.
I never said that because thereflex was simply this is the
thing I'm doing.
It matters.
There was this noise in thebackground mommy's voice and I
(17:07):
had to make a noise with mymouth to make the noise go away,
because I'm working on this andthat was the whole.
So there wasn't actually aconversation, but it's perceived
that way, and so if we takethat model a step further now,
there's not compliance, andthat's part of the reason why is
we have that reflexivedismissal rather than a genuine,
(17:29):
you know, noncompliance or kindof thing.
It's very in reflexive space.
The second is, we also havethis feature of what we
sometimes I hate the term havepathological demand avoidance,
which we see more in autism.
However, there's a lot ofoverlap with autism ADHD we have
(17:50):
that whole term ADHD for peoplewith both, and at that point
what that's really about isgoing through life feeling like
they have reduced autonomy tobegin with, and then the
compliance-based request comesin and now it's just one too
many and we say, no, I've hadenough, I cannot comply anymore.
Jon @wholeparent (18:19):
Okay, let me summarize this for you really
quickly.
The way that kids with ADHDrespond to this type of
parenting punishments,compliance, focus, command,
demand parenting is withresistance.
So if traditional parentingdoesn't work for them, what does
?
Dr. Josh Wyner (18:34):
Parent collaboratively.
That's it.
Let them guide you in what itis that matters to them.
I'll use a real example.
We have a young kid that reallystruggles, like many, to brush
their teeth and you say, hey,what would be helpful for you?
And the kid will say, well,it's just really boring, I don't
(18:57):
like brushing my teeth.
Could I have my iPad in thereand watch a two-minute video
while I brush my teeth for twominutes?
And I'll say, sure, right,that's a good use of the iPad.
That's not the bad screen timewe often talk about of oh no,
you're vegging off and you'renot engaging.
(19:17):
It's hey, you're using it inorder to make something less
difficult, because the pain ofthe toothbrushing is often that
it has so little emotional valuethat it's like being stuck in
an emotional void for twominutes, and nobody wants that.
Jon @wholeparent (19:38):
This leads us to tip number two we have to
learn to parent collaboratively.
Rather than explain how I woulduse collaborative problem
solving, I want to read you asection from my new book which,
unless you're listening thisbefore January 28th, is already
available wherever books aresold.
It comes from the very end ofmy book, where I give this
five-step practical guide tohandling any behavior or big
(20:00):
emotions in the moment.
What I didn't know when I firstwrote it was that, like the
rest of the book, this isactually tailor-made for parents
with ADHD kids.
But I guess I shouldn't besurprised.
That's just what happens when akid with ADHD grows up, does a
bunch of research and thenwrites a parenting book.
Here's the section Empowerthrough collaborative problem
solving.
I talked about this in Chapter4, but collaborative
(20:23):
consequences are a great exampleof collaborative problem
solving.
Collaborative problem solvingdoesn't always have to be about
consequences, though Often it'sjust that problem solving always
have to be about consequences,though.
Often it's just that problemsolving.
If the issue is, for example,getting out of the house in the
morning on time, ask your kidwhat they think some good
strategies might be.
Younger children usually needto pick between options that you
(20:44):
provide, while older gradeschoolers, preteens and even
teenagers will be able to comeup with solutions totally on
their own.
When they do, even if theirideas aren't what you would have
come up with, you need tocelebrate it.
It's a snapshot into theirfuture where you won't be around
and they'll be left to parentthemselves.
They're building neuralpathways in these moments that
will serve them for the rest oftheir lives.
(21:07):
Celebration isn't enough, though.
The key to all of this is thatyou have to be actually willing
to consider what they propose.
This is not the meaninglesschoice that you give to a
toddler between putting theirleft or right shoe on first,
though that's effective in itsown way, especially when they're
seeking autonomy.
This is truly gaining theirinput, because it's valuable to
(21:27):
them and you, their guide.
Just like with collaborativeconsequences, they have insight
into their own minds that youcan't have.
If they say that listening toRage Against the Machine as
their alarm clock is going tohelp get them up, as I did when
that was my struggle at 16 yearsold, trust them If it doesn't
work, you can always reassess.
(21:49):
This is the ultimate power ofthe win-win mindset in action.
When our kids know that we'reseeking their flourishing on
their terms, that we'reultimately preparing them to be
in charge the hero of their ownstory.
They're going to help us do thework of discipline.
A simple way to do that is tosit down with your child around
(22:09):
a problem where everyone isregulated and you've already
gone through steps one throughfour in the method with a pen
and a piece of paper andphysically write out solutions.
When your child sees youwriting their solutions out,
physically putting them down onpaper, it communicates to them
that you're involving them inthe problem-solving process.
If you feel like you need toadd a few potential solutions,
(22:30):
you can offer those as well.
Pro tip here make sure that atleast one or two of the
solutions that you write haveinherent flaws.
You'll see why in a second,write down all of their
solutions and then this is themost important point you
absolutely do not want to startcriticizing or judging these
potential solutions until youhave all of them down on paper.
(22:51):
If you do this, it's going tobackfire, undermining your
child's sense of agency andreinforcing that you are
ultimately uninterested in theircollaboration.
As a result, the solutions youcome up with will never be as
effective.
One reason that you want theirinput is to leverage and
exercise their capacity for whatresearchers call divergent
(23:11):
thinking.
Divergent thinking for ourpurposes can be classified
essentially as creative problemsolving or coming up with new
ideas.
Convergent thinking, processedin a different part of the brain
, is our decision engine,logically considering the
plausibility or efficacy ofsolutions.
The overwhelming majority ofadults have developed or have
been conditioned, depending onwhich social neuroscientist you
(23:34):
ask, to simultaneously use theirconvergent thinking to critique
and shoot down their owndivergent thinking as creative
ideas occur.
This means that most of ourbest creative ideas will never
even make it to our consciousawareness.
Your kids, regardless of age,likely still have a higher
capacity for creative problemsolving and divergent thinking,
(23:54):
as well as more informationabout what's causing the issue
for them in the first place.
So their ideas, even if theyfeel strange to you, actually
have a much higher likelihood ofbeing effective at solving the
problem than you think.
Once they're all down on paper,you can talk about the
potential issues with them,including those solutions that
you offered, highlighting whatyou like or dislike about them.
(24:15):
If your kids are older, theymight say something like that
doesn't work for me.
That's not going to bemotivating.
Bite your tongue.
They're the hero and ultimatelythey're the one who will suffer
the consequences if thesolutions fail.
Eventually, you'll come up witha collaborative solution that
they can get behind that doesn'tundermine the boundaries that
you put in place for theirsafety and well-being and the
(24:37):
safety of others, win, win.
Okay, you've probably beenwondering where Tina comes into
all this.
I mentioned at the beginningthat she was going to be in our
episode.
If you don't already know, sheendorsed and actually wrote the
foreword for my book,punishment-free Parenting.
But she also has a new bookthat comes out this week, a book
(25:01):
that just so happens to focuson one particular parenting
strategy that is perfect forkids with ADHD.
Her book, written with GeorgieWise Vincent, is called the Way
of Play, and that's our thirdand final tip.
If we have kids who have ADHD,we need to learn how to parent
with play.
Tina couldn't join us this weekbecause, along with launching
(25:23):
her book, which is a ton of work, believe me, she's also been
responding quite heroically.
I'll add to the devastatingwildfires dangerously close to
her home and clinic inCalifornia.
Devastating wildfiresdangerously close to her home
and clinic in California.
She's raised money for victims,opened up her clinic for free
support to affected parents andeven opened up her home.
She has embodied everythingthat we should aspire to be, not
(25:44):
only as parents, but as humanbeings.
That said, she wanted to haveinput, so she did record
something for us.
In spite of all that going on,here she is giving us some free
advice on why play is such animportant tool in parenting kids
with ADHD.
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (26:06):
The skills that we want kids with
ADHD to build are aroundemotional regulation, impulse
control and, primarily, theability to flexibly regulate
their attention, meaning nothyper-focusing so much that they
can't hear their parents'instructions or move on to the
next transition, and not beingunable to focus their attention.
So somewhere in the middle orkind of a more sophisticated
layering of both of those skills, where we want them to flexibly
be able to move their attentiontoward and away from different
(26:30):
stimuli.
So we want our kids to be ableto move their attention away
from what they're doing Ifsomething else important is
happening, like an instructionbeing given.
Something like that Playprovides the reps over and over
and over, allowing kids to movetheir attention toward and away
from other things when we areplaying with our kids, and this
(26:51):
is what I talk about in my newbook, the Way of Play, with
Georgie Wiz and Vincent.
We talk about these strategiesfor how to do this.
When we play with our children,we are actually following their
lead, but we're giving themmany, many opportunities to
practice emotional vocabulary,emotional regulation, resilience
, building the ability to moveattention toward in a way.
(27:12):
So if your kid's hyper-focusedon something but you want them
to listen to something else ormove on and practice stretching
those attentional flexibilitymuscles, the way that we play
with them can help them do that.
We also can practice impulsecontrol with silliness, with
playfulness and when play is funenough and it is much more fun
for them.
When we are playing with themand following their lead, they
(27:35):
actually are able to stretchtheir capacity, which then gives
them the reps over and over andover practicing impulse control
, attentional flexibility,emotional vocabulary, emotional
resilience and resilienceoverall.
So when you play with your kidsand we talk about how to do
this in the book, your kid willlearn all of these strategies
giving their brain practice,building the skills that they
(27:57):
could really use some growth in.
Jon @wholeparent (28:00):
Okay, let's just stay here for a moment.
What Tina is offering us hereis that not only the what of
play, but even just theenvironment of play provides
neurodivergent kids with anincredible opportunity to build
lagging skills.
Where compliance-driven,traditional parenting is met
with resistance or outrightdefiance, play becomes this
perfect framework for kids whoactually want to practice
(28:22):
emotional regulation, empathyand impulse control.
That's the real key here, theprimary takeaway for this
episode.
It's what Josh was talkingabout when I, a person with ADHD
, said that I have success withmaking lists Because I was the
one choosing to create thatsupport system for myself,
because I had the autonomy,because, in other words, I
(28:42):
placed value on improving thoselagging skills, I was able to
find success.
Here it is in a sentence Allkids, but especially ADHD kids,
learn better when they want tolearn.
I want to end this episode withthree practical examples of how
we can replace traditionalparenting with collaboration and
play for kids with ADHD,embodying our three tips.
(29:03):
Two come from Tina and one isfrom Josh.
Here they are.
I'm going to start with twofrom Tina, both which come from
her new book about play, andsorry for the background noise.
She recorded this while she wasat LAX.
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (29:15):
One of the amazing things about ADHD
kids is that they tend to haveincredible cognitive skills, but
development for all kids isusually not linear and it's
usually not synchronous, meaningyou might have really strong
cognitive development, but yoursocial and emotional development
might be lagging a little bitbehind and this is especially
the case for kids with ADHD.
(29:35):
A lot of the time.
So they might be incrediblyahead of their peers in terms of
their cognition, but when itcomes to social and emotional
stuff, they need a little moresupport and some more time for
development to unfold.
One of the best things we knowabout the brain is that we can
give repeated experiences thathelp build those skills, and one
(29:56):
of the best ways to do that isthrough play.
Here's my strategy for buildingthese emotional skills.
One of the strategies in thebook called bring emotions to
life, and when we talk aboutbringing emotions to life, it's
where you are playing with thecharacter.
Anyway, you're playing and youknow following your kids lead.
Maybe you are pretending to bea restaurant and as you are
playing, you introduce emotionsinto the character that you're
(30:18):
playing.
So, for example, your customer,your child, is really demanding
.
They keep complaining andinstead of just, you know, going
along with it.
You can say, oh, I feel sofrustrated, nothing I can do
seems to make things go well foryou.
You're such a demandingcustomer and you bring those
kinds of emotions in If yourchild is wanting you to be the
(30:41):
pirate and you are, you know, onthe edge of the ship and
someone makes you walk the plank.
You're like but I'm scared.
I don't want to go into thewater.
It's going to be so cold andI've never jumped in the water
before.
What if there's scary things inthe water?
So you introduce emotions andas you do this you are building
social and emotional skills.
You are creating scenarioswhere your child has to then
(31:08):
respond to you and be like don'tworry, I'm gonna throw you a
life vest.
So you are creating reciprocityin your interaction with your
kid.
But you're also naming emotions, bringing emotions to life.
Where they are expanding theiremotional vocabulary, they are
seeing how you problem-solve andrespond to emotions.
So one of the ways we helpbuild the social and emotional
skills that may be lagging withyour kid's amazing cognition
development is to play and playwith them.
(31:34):
One game you can play that Italk about in detail in the way
of play is to dial intensity upand down.
This allows your kid topractice the skills of reining
in their motor impulses, theiremotional impulses, and paying
attention to what you need aswell.
So here's the way it works.
Let's say you are goofingaround with your kid.
(31:55):
Maybe you're sword fighting oryou're playing in some way.
That's kind of a little bitphysical and it starts getting a
little too much.
You can say that was hard.
Let's try medium Okay, nowlet's try light.
Okay, now let's try a littlebit harder.
And so you're dialing theintensity of their motor
activity up and down, based ontheir ability to regulate their
(32:16):
motor states, their impulses andeven the emotions that come
with those.
So try dialing the intensity upand down by practicing hard,
medium, soft, a little more, alittle softer, a little harder,
and you can play with those withbetter activity.
Jon @wholeparent (32:30):
Now here's one from Josh.
It's actually more than just anexample.
It's a story about a family whoswitched from the traditional
command-demand approach to theirstruggling ADHD kid to
something more fun actually,with video games.
Dr. Josh Wyner (32:43):
So I remember many years ago there was a child
who was really struggling withhomework.
I know that's never happenedbefore, but they were really
behind, right, they were, I wantto say months behind on their
schoolwork, failing out of theirclasses, and the parents were
at a loss.
(33:03):
They said we do the homeworkevery night.
We send them to their classes.
And the parents were at a loss.
They said we do the homeworkevery night.
We send them to their room.
We say you can play your videogames once you're done with your
homework, go to the room forthree hours.
They come out and they wouldn'tdo anything.
We repeat over and over againand I said well, they like their
video games, right, yeah, okay.
They like their video gamesright, yeah, okay.
(33:24):
And with ADHD really with anykid, but especially with ADHD,
one of the difficulties is alsobecause of that whole time
situation.
You can't sit and do somethingfor that long successfully.
You've got to do chunking withyour time.
We do this even withaccommodations for adult
students.
And here's my suggestioninstead, do less homework.
(33:49):
This is easy buy-in for the kid,by the way, right, this is only
difficult with the parents.
Don't ask them to do as muchhomework.
Instead break it up into maybe40 minute homework breaks,
followed by 20 or 30 minutes ofgetting to play video games, and
then you have to act as theinternal or the replacement for
(34:10):
the internal structure and youcome in, you say, okay, now it's
time for another 30, 40 minutesof homework and then repeat,
and only do this maybe two, atmost three times a night.
So you're only doing maybe two45 minute chunks of homework a
night, at most a third one, andlet's just see what happens.
Right, because the kid is inagreement with this, they like
(34:31):
this idea.
That's just the collaborativepart, and the parent is also
letting go of being the one thatcomes in and just says, hey,
everything, my way, comply.
They came back two weeks laterand the kid had already caught
up almost a month on theirhomework.
Such a stark difference,because the kid was able to
(34:55):
identify what mattered to them.
They wanted to play this gameevery night and the parent was
willing to let go of thecompliance.
Jon @wholeparent (35:05):
If you like this episode of the Whole Parent
Podcast, you're going to lovemy new book Punishment-Free
Parenting the Brain-Based Way toRaise Kids Without Raising your
Voice.
According to Josh, tina andothers, this is the perfect book
to read if you're a parent whohas a kid who has ADHD and good
news, it turns out if your kiddoesn't have ADHD, it's actually
a better and more effective wayto parent neurotypical kids too
(35:28):
.
Find it wherever books are soldon January 28th.
And if you're already a podcastfan, chances are you're going
to love the audio version,because they let a kid who
almost failed junior English,who has ADHD, read it himself.
Of course, a special thank youto doctors Josh Weiner and Tina
Payne Bryson for lending theirvoice and expertise to this
(35:48):
episode.
Links to their social media, aswell as to Tina's new book, the
Way of Play, can be found inthe show notes Until next week.
Thanks for listening.
This has been the Whole ParentPodcast.
Um, I I'm actually just sittinghere trying to keep attention
(36:15):
on moving our conversation, butI'm just sitting here going.
I'm just sitting here goingthat reflexive, like lying and I
do this like to this day andI'm like like my wife will be
like did you like clean the backroom?
My, my, my parents are comingand I'm like focused on like
trying to do the other thingsfor and I'll just be like, yeah,
I did, and I will immediately,within, within a second, I'll go
(36:39):
wait, no, I didn't, I don'tknow why.
I just said that.
And like she's like what thehell is wrong with you, like
what's, why did you just lie?
And then just immediately belike, oh, I just lied.
Anyway, you should be myrelationships therapist.
Welcome to the Whole Parent Podcast.
My name is John.
I think the first time Irealized that there was
something different about methan other kids was first grade.
Back then I thought I was justbad at being a person Not bad in
a dramatic movie villain typeof way.
Bad in the small, unremarkableways that make you wonder if
(00:20):
you're just weird, like how Iwas the only one who got in
trouble for not being able tosit still during reading time,
or how my handwriting wastotally illegible, or how I
could never remember whichspelling list we were on, even
though everyone else seemed toknow this.
One time my first grade teacher, mrs Amos, handed me a sheet of
graph paper that I was supposedto write consecutive numbers on
one to a hundred.
(00:41):
She said that it was due by theend of the day.
I stared at it like I hadn'tunderstood her.
I had, it wasn't hard, but Ijust couldn't start.
I sat there tapping my pencilagainst the desk, distracting
other kids, feeling the secondsslip by.
By the end of the day I'dwritten seven numbers, seven.
(01:02):
A couple of months later, allof the other kids had five or
ten sheets of graph paper alltaped together, their numbers
tallying up into the thousands,I was still on my first sheet.
It wasn't that I was lazy orindifferent.
In fact, I almost cared toomuch.
I cared so much that every timeI failed which felt like every
(01:23):
day it felt suffocating,overwhelming.
I was the kid who couldn't keepup.
By the time I was in middleschool, my life was a blur of
missed assignments, forgottengym clothes and half-finished
science project that livedeternally incomplete.
My parents would sigh and saythings like why don't you just
plan?
I tried harder.
I even started to finish thehomework, but then I wouldn't
(01:45):
turn it in.
Every assignment felt like Iwas standing at the bottom of a
giant staircase looking up.
I couldn't make my legs move,while everyone else seemed to
just fly to the top.
Once in sixth grade, I forgot mymath homework for five days in
a row.
It was a clean sweep for theweek.
My teacher I can't evenremember her name called me to
(02:05):
her desk after class and saidyou're smart, but you have to
focus.
You know this stuff, just payattention.
I nodded, demoralized.
What could I say?
In seventh grade, I wasdiagnosed with what was called
then ADD attention deficitdisorder.
Today we call it ADHDinattentive type, if you want to
(02:27):
be specific.
I got accommodations andmedications and the results
improved, but I still waiteduntil the last few days of May
of my junior year of high schoolto start on the big junior
research paper that we wereassigned in October.
The truth is, more than themeds or the extra time, it was
the fact that in middle school,I had been given another word, a
(02:48):
word other than lazy, todescribe why I struggled, and
that alone made things better.
But even so, my parents didn'tget it.
My dad still freaked out when Imissed stuff and yelled that I
needed to try harder.
My mom still made excuses anddefended me to teachers, without
ever actually understanding.
It wasn't until I was 30,having spent more than half of
my life in formal school, that Ifinally understood what it
(03:10):
meant to be a kid with ADHD.
On this episode of the WholeParent Podcast, we're answering
one simple question why doesn'ttraditional parenting work for
kids with ADHD, and what can wedo that will work for kids with
ADHD?
And what can we do that will Alot of people have advice about
what works for kids with ADHD Ifyou have a child with ADHD who
(03:33):
struggles to listen.
Dr. Josh Wyner (03:34):
The four best things you can do to help your
child with ADHD.
Jon @wholeparent (03:37):
Number one ADHD parenting tip.
Here are five tips when yourchild has ADHD.
If you're a mom with an ADHDkid, then this video is for you.
Some of that advice comes fromexperts and is grounded in
research.
Act, don't yak.
Dr. Josh Wyner (03:53):
The more you blather, the more you natter.
The more you nag, the lessinfluence you have.
I'm going to explain whypunishments don't work and what
you should do instead.
Jon @wholeparent (04:03):
Some is not.
Dr. Josh Wyner (04:04):
Two supplements that kept my daughter off of
ADHD medicine.
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (04:07):
Do the exact same thing with kids, with
.
Jon @wholeparent (04:09):
ADHD and ODD.
They are no different.
They are exactly the same.
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (04:13):
In today's society, a lot of people
are susceptible to get ADHDbecause they have bad diets.
Jon @wholeparent (04:20):
With all of the conflicting information, it
can be hard to know if your kidactually has ADHD, much less
what you're actually going to doabout it if they do.
I'm not going to lie, I'vehesitated to talk about ADHD on
social media or on the podcast.
I'm not a psychologist or apsychiatrist or even a person
who has studied ADHD.
All that much I just don't wantto add to the noise.
(04:40):
But on season two we're pushingboundaries, and so I had a
conversation this week with twoexperts.
First is Dr Joshua Weiner.
We call him Dr Josh.
He's a clinical neuroscientist,program chair of marriage and
family therapy at the ChicagoSchool and founder and executive
director of Willow FamilyHealth, a nonprofit counseling
center dedicated to providingneurodiversity-affirming mental
(05:02):
health services to families inneed.
Then, later on in the episode,we have Dr Tina Payne Bryson,
founder and director of theCenter for Connection and
Neurodiversity and co-author ofnot one but two New York Times
best-selling parenting books.
With their help, we're going totry to one learn some telltale
signs that parents can use tomake a reasonable guess at
whether their kid has ADHD.
(05:23):
Two, deconstruct some harmfulmyths about ADHD, including why
traditional parenting usuallybackfires.
And then three, implement threepractical tips that we can use
for parenting kids with ADHD.
If there is any chance that youthink your kid has ADHD, you
are not going to want to missthis.
You are not going to want tomiss this.
(05:47):
So the first step in learninghow to parent a child with ADHD
is actually determining whetheryour child has ADHD, and recent
studies show it's actually waymore common than you might
expect.
According to the CDC, rates ofADHD diagnosis in kids have
risen dramatically in the lastdecade.
In their last report from 2022,rates of ADHD diagnosis in kids
have risen dramatically in thelast decade.
(06:08):
In their last report from 2022,it showed that over 7 million
kids in the US that's one innine have been diagnosed with
ADHD.
That's more than a million morekids from the previous report
in 2016.
Of those more than 7 million, alittle more than half of them
were already on medication and alittle less than half of them
had already received some formof formal behavioral
intervention.
(06:28):
That said, as a parent, it canstill be hard to know.
A lot of that is because wedon't even really understand how
ADHD manifests in kids, what'sgoing on in their brain.
Here's what Dr Josh had to sayabout that.
Dr. Josh Wyner (06:41):
When we talk about ADHD, what we're really
talking about is what we callemotional tags.
So I'm sitting here, we'retalking and I want to talk to
you.
You're emotionally valuable tome.
To talk to, that matters.
I want, maybe I don't know ifI'm hungry, maybe that's
emotionally important to me.
(07:02):
I'm thinking, oh, I can payattention to you, maybe I run
off and get a snack.
Or if I had to go to thebathroom, that's going to be
valuable to me.
Or I know there's somethingcoming any moment that I have to
worry about at the door.
Those matter.
But what's happening outside mydoor?
Not necessarily important to me.
(07:23):
What color the wall is behindme not important to me.
I'm not even thinking about it.
So the choices that I've beenpresented with are pay attention
and talk to you, go get somefood, go to the bathroom, worry
about whether the doorbell isgoing to ring, and then I choose
between those choices.
So each of those has anemotional tag.
(07:45):
Then you take your ADHD kidright.
They're sitting there and,unlike that neurotypical
experience you have, all ofthose have emotional value, but
that emotional value is less forthem than for your neurotypical
person, for them than for yourneurotypical person.
(08:07):
Each of those tags I justrepresented have reduced
emotional value.
And then now what's going onoutside?
Maybe it had that little bit ofvalue, maybe the color of my
wall is kind of interesting.
Well, now I've got six things tochoose from.
That's the better descriptionof ADHD.
So if one of those talking toyou happens to be bigger than
(08:28):
the others and I focus on you,and then all of a sudden
somebody comes to the door and Idon't even notice it because
I'm talking to you, you say, oh,you're ADHD, you're hyper
fixating.
Well, you know, that was thething that mattered, the others
don't.
Or I switch between them reallyquickly and you're like, oh,
look, how the thing thatmattered, the others don't.
Or I switch between them reallyquickly and you're like, oh,
look, how hyperactive you are.
(08:49):
Again, same thing, right.
And we can go through all theothers inattentive and
everything else.
That's all that's happening is,all of those emotional tags are
reduced and now, depending onyour experience of that
reduction, you express it inthese different ways, right?
(09:10):
So if you understand it fromthat perspective instead, then
you can start to unravel a lotof the myths and
misunderstandings.
Jon @wholeparent (09:18):
Okay.
So that kind of leads me to mysecond question, which is what
are some of the outdated ordamaging myths that you hear out
, just kind of said parents thathave come to you, or just out
in public, when people talkabout ADHD, what are they
getting wrong and how is itharmful to our kids if we adopt
or internalize those things?
Dr. Josh Wyner (09:38):
The worst is they're lazy.
Just try harder or just make alist, right, that's.
That's.
That's a favorite that you hearfrom a lot of folks as they
come in and say, well, if youjust made a list of things you
could do and you followed thelist, then you'd be fine.
But you're so lazy that youwon't even do that and the
consequence is we actually havea word for it is demoralized.
(10:02):
So what will happen is an ADHD,especially an adult, will come
into the office and they'll sayI'm depressed.
And you'll say explain, what doyou mean by depressed?
Well, I'm just such a shittyperson.
I do everything wrong.
I can never follow through withanything.
I'm just bad at life.
That's not quite depression, isit?
No, you're demoralized.
(10:22):
You've been told you're lazy,you're not good enough, and
you've taken that in now as fact.
Jon @wholeparent (10:29):
Yeah, I'm smiling because I did not intend
to go to therapy right now, butthat feels dangerously close to
my experience of the world andI am a person who I've had some
success with making lists, whenI can actually determine that
making the list is the rightthing to do, of course.
But I've had some success offollowing the list because there
(10:50):
is an inattentiveness and alook, the next thing can come up
and I can just be distracted.
I can just move on to that.
I can just move on to that, andso I found that lists are
helpful.
Dr. Josh Wyner (11:00):
And I think they can be helpful if they're yours
Because notice what you said Idecided to make the list, which
means you tagged the list withsome emotional value, of course.
Jon @wholeparent (11:18):
Okay, let's pause for a moment and think
about that.
We'll come back to the partabout lists at the end of the
episode, but let's considerfirst what he said before that.
What Dr Josh is saying here isthat, for kids with ADHD,
labeling their struggles aslaziness, far from encouraging
them to improve, actuallydemoralizes them.
It causes them to adopt aself-image that's grounded in
(11:38):
their inadequacies rather thantheir inherent value.
This really shouldn't surpriseus.
One of the things I talk aboutextensively in my book,
something that we talk about onthe podcast all the time, is how
our words about our kids becometheir inner voice, that our
perception of them shapes theirperception of themselves, and so
(11:58):
when we call our ADHD kids lazy, they believe us, not because
it's true, but because we aretheir parents, and they're more
likely to act in accordance withthat self-critical mindset as a
result.
But how do we know that if thatexperience of having diminished
value for emotional tags, asJosh called it, is actually
what's going on with our kid?
Dr. Josh Wyner (12:19):
Yeah, I think with ADHD there's a lot of
misunderstanding about what isactually happening for the kid.
So, in a very short form, ifyou notice that your child is
able to do things like mostchildren can do, that really
(12:40):
engage them, that they find thatthey're really interested in,
right, and that's a normal humanthing too.
Of course we do the stuff welike, but when it comes to the
stuff that they are notconnected to, there is an
exceptional struggle to engagewith it.
That is the first clue.
(13:01):
So it's not so much directlyabout attention and
hyperactivity those words thatgo with the name as much as that
connection to the thing thatwe're trying to engage with.
If we go back to the model thatI appreciate from Russell
Barkley, he will talk about itfrom the perspective of time.
(13:22):
So rather than saying, let'stalk about attention, can you
pay attention?
Are you hyper fixated orhyperactive or are you
inattentive?
Instead of talking about thosepotential symptoms, he will talk
about your sense of time.
Are you what he would call timeblind or nearsighted?
(13:42):
In time He'll say temporarilymyopic, but that seems like a
big mouthful.
Are you very focused in what'shappening in the present, often
at the expense of the future,even the near future.
The kid is doing somethingwhere you're looking and you're
like hey, don't you realize thatif you do that thing, if you go
(14:04):
and play with those Legos afterwe've talked about how you need
to put them down or else goingto have to take them away and
they can't disconnect from it,even in that moment where the
consequence is like 10 secondsin the future, that's not that
far Right.
Here's a timer, ten nine Right,and they're like whatever Legos
.
Now we're potentially in thattime blind mode.
Jon @wholeparent (14:31):
So now that we've determined what ADHD
actually looks like in kids andwhat actually is going on in our
kids' brains who have ADHD, wehave to figure out how, as
parents, we're supposed to dealwith that.
How are we supposed to parentkids with ADHD?
Maybe it's obvious at thispoint, but the answer is not
traditional, authoritarianparenting.
When I say traditionalparenting, what I'm talking
(14:53):
about here is parenting thatemphasizes strict adherence to
rules, unquestioned obedienceand high expectations for
compliance, without negotiationor explanation.
It usually relies on some sortof hierarchical structure where
the parent holds ultimateauthority and the child is
expected to follow directionswithout discussion.
Expected to follow directionswithout discussion.
Discipline in this approach isoften punitive, using fear,
(15:22):
shame or well punishments toenforce what they call good
behavior.
If you were raised like this,how most of us were raised, you
know that emotional expressionand individual autonomy are not
usually encouraged.
Compliance and even convenienceare prioritized, while
fostering understanding orconnection are just not the
focus in traditional parentingis less about guiding a child's
emotional development orunderstanding the reason behind
(15:43):
their behavior, and more aboutshaping their immediate actions
to align with the parent'sexpectations, and that just
doesn't work for kids with ADHD,which actually leads us to our
tip number one.
If you have a kid with ADHD,you have to ditch traditional
parenting.
Dr. Josh Wyner (16:01):
With ADHD, there is going to be more of a
disconnect between thequote-unquote value of complying
and doing the task, Becausethere's other things that have
more positive value.
One of my favorite examples iswith ADHD, you often have
something that's calledinveracity, meaning the child
(16:23):
will say something that's nottrue, but it's not a lie in the
way we mean it normally, becauseit's more reflexive.
They're often not even aware ithappened and so, for example,
the parent will say clean yourroom, and the kid will be
playing a video game and they'llsay, sure, Right, and they
won't even register that theyactually were asked to clean the
room.
And then later the parent willsay did you clean your room?
(16:44):
Yep, Right, and they're playingtheir game Like no, they didn't
, but they won't actuallyremember saying yep, and then
the parent will come in and saywhat the hell?
And they start screaming and wehave a whole thing and the kid
will be.
I don't.
Genuinely, I don't know whatyou're talking about.
I never said that because thereflex was simply this is the
thing I'm doing.
It matters.
There was this noise in thebackground mommy's voice and I
(17:07):
had to make a noise with mymouth to make the noise go away,
because I'm working on this andthat was the whole.
So there wasn't actually aconversation, but it's perceived
that way, and so if we takethat model a step further now,
there's not compliance, andthat's part of the reason why is
we have that reflexivedismissal rather than a genuine,
(17:29):
you know, noncompliance or kindof thing.
It's very in reflexive space.
The second is, we also havethis feature of what we
sometimes I hate the term havepathological demand avoidance,
which we see more in autism.
However, there's a lot ofoverlap with autism ADHD we have
(17:50):
that whole term ADHD for peoplewith both, and at that point
what that's really about isgoing through life feeling like
they have reduced autonomy tobegin with, and then the
compliance-based request comesin and now it's just one too
many and we say, no, I've hadenough, I cannot comply anymore.
Jon @wholeparent (18:19):
Okay, let me summarize this for you really
quickly.
The way that kids with ADHDrespond to this type of
parenting punishments,compliance, focus, command,
demand parenting is withresistance.
So if traditional parentingdoesn't work for them, what does
?
Dr. Josh Wyner (18:34):
Parent collaboratively.
That's it.
Let them guide you in what itis that matters to them.
I'll use a real example.
We have a young kid that reallystruggles, like many, to brush
their teeth and you say, hey,what would be helpful for you?
And the kid will say, well,it's just really boring, I don't
(18:57):
like brushing my teeth.
Could I have my iPad in thereand watch a two-minute video
while I brush my teeth for twominutes?
And I'll say, sure, right,that's a good use of the iPad.
That's not the bad screen timewe often talk about of oh no,
you're vegging off and you'renot engaging.
(19:17):
It's hey, you're using it inorder to make something less
difficult, because the pain ofthe toothbrushing is often that
it has so little emotional valuethat it's like being stuck in
an emotional void for twominutes, and nobody wants that.
Jon @wholeparent (19:38):
This leads us to tip number two we have to
learn to parent collaboratively.
Rather than explain how I woulduse collaborative problem
solving, I want to read you asection from my new book which,
unless you're listening thisbefore January 28th, is already
available wherever books aresold.
It comes from the very end ofmy book, where I give this
five-step practical guide tohandling any behavior or big
(20:00):
emotions in the moment.
What I didn't know when I firstwrote it was that, like the
rest of the book, this isactually tailor-made for parents
with ADHD kids.
But I guess I shouldn't besurprised.
That's just what happens when akid with ADHD grows up, does a
bunch of research and thenwrites a parenting book.
Here's the section Empowerthrough collaborative problem
solving.
I talked about this in Chapter4, but collaborative
(20:23):
consequences are a great exampleof collaborative problem
solving.
Collaborative problem solvingdoesn't always have to be about
consequences, though Often it'sjust that problem solving always
have to be about consequences,though.
Often it's just that problemsolving.
If the issue is, for example,getting out of the house in the
morning on time, ask your kidwhat they think some good
strategies might be.
Younger children usually needto pick between options that you
(20:44):
provide, while older gradeschoolers, preteens and even
teenagers will be able to comeup with solutions totally on
their own.
When they do, even if theirideas aren't what you would have
come up with, you need tocelebrate it.
It's a snapshot into theirfuture where you won't be around
and they'll be left to parentthemselves.
They're building neuralpathways in these moments that
will serve them for the rest oftheir lives.
(21:07):
Celebration isn't enough, though.
The key to all of this is thatyou have to be actually willing
to consider what they propose.
This is not the meaninglesschoice that you give to a
toddler between putting theirleft or right shoe on first,
though that's effective in itsown way, especially when they're
seeking autonomy.
This is truly gaining theirinput, because it's valuable to
(21:27):
them and you, their guide.
Just like with collaborativeconsequences, they have insight
into their own minds that youcan't have.
If they say that listening toRage Against the Machine as
their alarm clock is going tohelp get them up, as I did when
that was my struggle at 16 yearsold, trust them If it doesn't
work, you can always reassess.
(21:49):
This is the ultimate power ofthe win-win mindset in action.
When our kids know that we'reseeking their flourishing on
their terms, that we'reultimately preparing them to be
in charge the hero of their ownstory.
They're going to help us do thework of discipline.
A simple way to do that is tosit down with your child around
(22:09):
a problem where everyone isregulated and you've already
gone through steps one throughfour in the method with a pen
and a piece of paper andphysically write out solutions.
When your child sees youwriting their solutions out,
physically putting them down onpaper, it communicates to them
that you're involving them inthe problem-solving process.
If you feel like you need toadd a few potential solutions,
(22:30):
you can offer those as well.
Pro tip here make sure that atleast one or two of the
solutions that you write haveinherent flaws.
You'll see why in a second,write down all of their
solutions and then this is themost important point you
absolutely do not want to startcriticizing or judging these
potential solutions until youhave all of them down on paper.
(22:51):
If you do this, it's going tobackfire, undermining your
child's sense of agency andreinforcing that you are
ultimately uninterested in theircollaboration.
As a result, the solutions youcome up with will never be as
effective.
One reason that you want theirinput is to leverage and
exercise their capacity for whatresearchers call divergent
(23:11):
thinking.
Divergent thinking for ourpurposes can be classified
essentially as creative problemsolving or coming up with new
ideas.
Convergent thinking, processedin a different part of the brain
, is our decision engine,logically considering the
plausibility or efficacy ofsolutions.
The overwhelming majority ofadults have developed or have
been conditioned, depending onwhich social neuroscientist you
(23:34):
ask, to simultaneously use theirconvergent thinking to critique
and shoot down their owndivergent thinking as creative
ideas occur.
This means that most of ourbest creative ideas will never
even make it to our consciousawareness.
Your kids, regardless of age,likely still have a higher
capacity for creative problemsolving and divergent thinking,
(23:54):
as well as more informationabout what's causing the issue
for them in the first place.
So their ideas, even if theyfeel strange to you, actually
have a much higher likelihood ofbeing effective at solving the
problem than you think.
Once they're all down on paper,you can talk about the
potential issues with them,including those solutions that
you offered, highlighting whatyou like or dislike about them.
(24:15):
If your kids are older, theymight say something like that
doesn't work for me.
That's not going to bemotivating.
Bite your tongue.
They're the hero and ultimatelythey're the one who will suffer
the consequences if thesolutions fail.
Eventually, you'll come up witha collaborative solution that
they can get behind that doesn'tundermine the boundaries that
you put in place for theirsafety and well-being and the
(24:37):
safety of others, win, win.
Okay, you've probably beenwondering where Tina comes into
all this.
I mentioned at the beginningthat she was going to be in our
episode.
If you don't already know, sheendorsed and actually wrote the
foreword for my book,punishment-free Parenting.
But she also has a new bookthat comes out this week, a book
(25:01):
that just so happens to focuson one particular parenting
strategy that is perfect forkids with ADHD.
Her book, written with GeorgieWise Vincent, is called the Way
of Play, and that's our thirdand final tip.
If we have kids who have ADHD,we need to learn how to parent
with play.
Tina couldn't join us this weekbecause, along with launching
(25:23):
her book, which is a ton of work, believe me, she's also been
responding quite heroically.
I'll add to the devastatingwildfires dangerously close to
her home and clinic inCalifornia.
Devastating wildfiresdangerously close to her home
and clinic in California.
She's raised money for victims,opened up her clinic for free
support to affected parents andeven opened up her home.
She has embodied everythingthat we should aspire to be, not
(25:44):
only as parents, but as humanbeings.
That said, she wanted to haveinput, so she did record
something for us.
In spite of all that going on,here she is giving us some free
advice on why play is such animportant tool in parenting kids
with ADHD.
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (26:06):
The skills that we want kids with
ADHD to build are aroundemotional regulation, impulse
control and, primarily, theability to flexibly regulate
their attention, meaning nothyper-focusing so much that they
can't hear their parents'instructions or move on to the
next transition, and not beingunable to focus their attention.
So somewhere in the middle orkind of a more sophisticated
layering of both of those skills, where we want them to flexibly
be able to move their attentiontoward and away from different
(26:30):
stimuli.
So we want our kids to be ableto move their attention away
from what they're doing Ifsomething else important is
happening, like an instructionbeing given.
Something like that Playprovides the reps over and over
and over, allowing kids to movetheir attention toward and away
from other things when we areplaying with our kids, and this
(26:51):
is what I talk about in my newbook, the Way of Play, with
Georgie Wiz and Vincent.
We talk about these strategiesfor how to do this.
When we play with our children,we are actually following their
lead, but we're giving themmany, many opportunities to
practice emotional vocabulary,emotional regulation, resilience
, building the ability to moveattention toward in a way.
(27:12):
So if your kid's hyper-focusedon something but you want them
to listen to something else ormove on and practice stretching
those attentional flexibilitymuscles, the way that we play
with them can help them do that.
We also can practice impulsecontrol with silliness, with
playfulness and when play is funenough and it is much more fun
for them.
When we are playing with themand following their lead, they
(27:35):
actually are able to stretchtheir capacity, which then gives
them the reps over and over andover practicing impulse control
, attentional flexibility,emotional vocabulary, emotional
resilience and resilienceoverall.
So when you play with your kidsand we talk about how to do
this in the book, your kid willlearn all of these strategies
giving their brain practice,building the skills that they
(27:57):
could really use some growth in.
Jon @wholeparent (28:00):
Okay, let's just stay here for a moment.
What Tina is offering us hereis that not only the what of
play, but even just theenvironment of play provides
neurodivergent kids with anincredible opportunity to build
lagging skills.
Where compliance-driven,traditional parenting is met
with resistance or outrightdefiance, play becomes this
perfect framework for kids whoactually want to practice
(28:22):
emotional regulation, empathyand impulse control.
That's the real key here, theprimary takeaway for this
episode.
It's what Josh was talkingabout when I, a person with ADHD
, said that I have success withmaking lists Because I was the
one choosing to create thatsupport system for myself,
because I had the autonomy,because, in other words, I
(28:42):
placed value on improving thoselagging skills, I was able to
find success.
Here it is in a sentence Allkids, but especially ADHD kids,
learn better when they want tolearn.
I want to end this episode withthree practical examples of how
we can replace traditionalparenting with collaboration and
play for kids with ADHD,embodying our three tips.
(29:03):
Two come from Tina and one isfrom Josh.
Here they are.
I'm going to start with twofrom Tina, both which come from
her new book about play, andsorry for the background noise.
She recorded this while she wasat LAX.
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (29:15):
One of the amazing things about ADHD
kids is that they tend to haveincredible cognitive skills, but
development for all kids isusually not linear and it's
usually not synchronous, meaningyou might have really strong
cognitive development, but yoursocial and emotional development
might be lagging a little bitbehind and this is especially
the case for kids with ADHD.
(29:35):
A lot of the time.
So they might be incrediblyahead of their peers in terms of
their cognition, but when itcomes to social and emotional
stuff, they need a little moresupport and some more time for
development to unfold.
One of the best things we knowabout the brain is that we can
give repeated experiences thathelp build those skills, and one
(29:56):
of the best ways to do that isthrough play.
Here's my strategy for buildingthese emotional skills.
One of the strategies in thebook called bring emotions to
life, and when we talk aboutbringing emotions to life, it's
where you are playing with thecharacter.
Anyway, you're playing and youknow following your kids lead.
Maybe you are pretending to bea restaurant and as you are
playing, you introduce emotionsinto the character that you're
(30:18):
playing.
So, for example, your customer,your child, is really demanding
.
They keep complaining andinstead of just, you know, going
along with it.
You can say, oh, I feel sofrustrated, nothing I can do
seems to make things go well foryou.
You're such a demandingcustomer and you bring those
kinds of emotions in If yourchild is wanting you to be the
(30:41):
pirate and you are, you know, onthe edge of the ship and
someone makes you walk the plank.
You're like but I'm scared.
I don't want to go into thewater.
It's going to be so cold andI've never jumped in the water
before.
What if there's scary things inthe water?
So you introduce emotions andas you do this you are building
social and emotional skills.
You are creating scenarioswhere your child has to then
(31:08):
respond to you and be like don'tworry, I'm gonna throw you a
life vest.
So you are creating reciprocityin your interaction with your
kid.
But you're also naming emotions, bringing emotions to life.
Where they are expanding theiremotional vocabulary, they are
seeing how you problem-solve andrespond to emotions.
So one of the ways we helpbuild the social and emotional
skills that may be lagging withyour kid's amazing cognition
development is to play and playwith them.
(31:34):
One game you can play that Italk about in detail in the way
of play is to dial intensity upand down.
This allows your kid topractice the skills of reining
in their motor impulses, theiremotional impulses, and paying
attention to what you need aswell.
So here's the way it works.
Let's say you are goofingaround with your kid.
(31:55):
Maybe you're sword fighting oryou're playing in some way.
That's kind of a little bitphysical and it starts getting a
little too much.
You can say that was hard.
Let's try medium Okay, nowlet's try light.
Okay, now let's try a littlebit harder.
And so you're dialing theintensity of their motor
activity up and down, based ontheir ability to regulate their
(32:16):
motor states, their impulses andeven the emotions that come
with those.
So try dialing the intensity upand down by practicing hard,
medium, soft, a little more, alittle softer, a little harder,
and you can play with those withbetter activity.
Jon @wholeparent (32:30):
Now here's one from Josh.
It's actually more than just anexample.
It's a story about a family whoswitched from the traditional
command-demand approach to theirstruggling ADHD kid to
something more fun actually,with video games.
Dr. Josh Wyner (32:43):
So I remember many years ago there was a child
who was really struggling withhomework.
I know that's never happenedbefore, but they were really
behind, right, they were, I wantto say months behind on their
schoolwork, failing out of theirclasses, and the parents were
at a loss.
(33:03):
They said we do the homeworkevery night.
We send them to their classes.
And the parents were at a loss.
They said we do the homeworkevery night.
We send them to their room.
We say you can play your videogames once you're done with your
homework, go to the room forthree hours.
They come out and they wouldn'tdo anything.
We repeat over and over againand I said well, they like their
video games, right, yeah, okay.
They like their video gamesright, yeah, okay.
(33:24):
And with ADHD really with anykid, but especially with ADHD,
one of the difficulties is alsobecause of that whole time
situation.
You can't sit and do somethingfor that long successfully.
You've got to do chunking withyour time.
We do this even withaccommodations for adult
students.
And here's my suggestioninstead, do less homework.
(33:49):
This is easy buy-in for the kid,by the way, right, this is only
difficult with the parents.
Don't ask them to do as muchhomework.
Instead break it up into maybe40 minute homework breaks,
followed by 20 or 30 minutes ofgetting to play video games, and
then you have to act as theinternal or the replacement for
(34:10):
the internal structure and youcome in, you say, okay, now it's
time for another 30, 40 minutesof homework and then repeat,
and only do this maybe two, atmost three times a night.
So you're only doing maybe two45 minute chunks of homework a
night, at most a third one, andlet's just see what happens.
Right, because the kid is inagreement with this, they like
(34:31):
this idea.
That's just the collaborativepart, and the parent is also
letting go of being the one thatcomes in and just says, hey,
everything, my way, comply.
They came back two weeks laterand the kid had already caught
up almost a month on theirhomework.
Such a stark difference,because the kid was able to
(34:55):
identify what mattered to them.
They wanted to play this gameevery night and the parent was
willing to let go of thecompliance.
Jon @wholeparent (35:05):
If you like this episode of the Whole Parent
Podcast, you're going to lovemy new book Punishment-Free
Parenting the Brain-Based Way toRaise Kids Without Raising your
Voice.
According to Josh, tina andothers, this is the perfect book
to read if you're a parent whohas a kid who has ADHD and good
news, it turns out if your kiddoesn't have ADHD, it's actually
a better and more effective wayto parent neurotypical kids too
(35:28):
.
Find it wherever books are soldon January 28th.
And if you're already a podcastfan, chances are you're going
to love the audio version,because they let a kid who
almost failed junior English,who has ADHD, read it himself.
Of course, a special thank youto doctors Josh Weiner and Tina
Payne Bryson for lending theirvoice and expertise to this
(35:48):
episode.
Links to their social media, aswell as to Tina's new book, the
Way of Play, can be found inthe show notes Until next week.
Thanks for listening.
This has been the Whole ParentPodcast.
Um, I I'm actually just sittinghere trying to keep attention
(36:15):
on moving our conversation, butI'm just sitting here going.
I'm just sitting here goingthat reflexive, like lying and I
do this like to this day andI'm like like my wife will be
like did you like clean the backroom?
My, my, my parents are comingand I'm like focused on like
trying to do the other thingsfor and I'll just be like, yeah,
I did, and I will immediately,within, within a second, I'll go
(36:39):
wait, no, I didn't, I don'tknow why.
I just said that.
And like she's like what thehell is wrong with you, like
what's, why did you just lie?
And then just immediately belike, oh, I just lied.
Anyway, you should be myrelationships therapist.
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