Punishment-Free Parenting with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson #22

Episode Transcript
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Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D (00:00):
But I think before we even get to the
consequences thing, we have toremember that if the whole point
and purpose is to teach andbuild skills so they become
self-disciplined, then they haveto be in a state in their
nervous system in which they canlearn.
So that's why, in our no dramadiscipline approach, we really
talk about the idea that thebrain is either in a reactive
state where it can't learn thisis what tantrums look like, this

(00:23):
is what disrespectful backtalklooks like.
So either the brain's in areactive state or it's in a
receptive state in which it'sready to learn.
So the first step is is my childready to learn and am I ready
to teach?
If the answer is no to eitherof those questions.
It's not the right time, and so, in the name of discipline and
by that I mean teaching andskill building the first thing

(00:45):
we have to do is get our kidreceptive, and the way we do
that is through connection,relationship, regulation, time,
space, nurture.
Whatever it takes, it's a brandnew day.
Wake up every morning and sayit's a brand new day.
Take a good day, make it great,Okay.

Jon @wholeparent (01:08):
Hello and welcome to the whole parent
podcast.
My name is John, I am the hostof the whole parent podcast and
I am at whole parent on all ofthe social medias.
Uh, if you are just joiningthis podcast for the first time,
maybe this is the first episodethat you've ever found.
This is a podcast all aboutparenting, but it's not a
podcast that's going to make youfeel worse about your parenting

(01:29):
journey.
It's a podcast that's going togive you excellent,
evidence-based tips that aregoing to help you parent with
confidence and raise resilientkids.
And so, if you're looking toupgrade your parenting, not
because you feel ashamed of theway that you've been parenting,
not because you're uh, you knowI'm stoking your fear or
anything like that, but justbecause you want to have a

(01:50):
community of people that you'relearning alongside, myself
included this is the podcast foryou.
So, if you're not alreadysubscribed, if you haven't
already gone in and rated theshow and, uh, written a review,
if you're a regular listener andyou've listened to a bunch of
episodes, please you help thismessage get out to so many more

(02:11):
parents.
This episode today is probablymy favorite episode that I have
ever recorded, and that isbecause I get to talk to my
personal parenting hero about myfavorite topic in parenting.
It has been a dream getting todo this episode and I have

(02:33):
recorded it and now I'm comingback and recording the intro and
it's just been spinning aroundin my head for days the stuff
that we talked about man.
I feel like I'm bearing thelead here.
This episode is aboutpunishment-free parenting.
That's the title of thisepisode.
You're going to hear me talk somuch more about this topic in

(02:54):
general, but this episode is myfirst episode about
punishment-free parenting and Iget to have my first episode
with Punishment Free Parentingwith Dr Tina Payne Bryson, the
author who co-authored, alongwith Dan Siegel, so many of my
favorite parenting books,including probably my all-time
favorite parenting book, theWhole Brain Child.

(03:15):
They've co-authored bookstogether, including the Whole
Brain Child, no Drama,discipline and so many more, and
so we talk a little bit aboutthat in this episode.
But we also just talk about whypunishment is an ineffective
way to help your kids grow intoresilient, healthy adults, and

(03:36):
so if you are a parent who hascome from a punishment paradigm,
you maybe were punished growingup, like so many parents or so
many kids and who are nowparents.
If you are wondering whetherthat punishment was what you
needed or whether it was helpful, or whether there's another way
to parent.

(03:56):
That's this episode.
We talk all about it, and so,whether you're tuning in for the
first time or whether you havebeen around and you've listened
to this podcast before, welcometo one of the best episodes in
this very young podcastPunishment, pre-parenting with
Tina Payne Bryson.
Welcome everybody to the WholeParent Podcast.

(04:18):
I am super, super excited todaythat we have Dr Tina Payne
Bryson PhD although you don'tsay doctor and PhD at the same
time.
Tina, you are the author of twoof my very favorite parenting
books the Whole Brain Child andno Drama Discipline.
Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much.
I'm so honored to be here.
I'm such a big fan of your workand what you're doing and the
impact you're having, so I can'twait to have a conversation
with you.

That's like the craziest thing that I've
ever heard that you're a fan ofmy work, so I'm going to try and
not fanboy out too much.
But yeah, we're talking about abunch of stuff today, but
especially we're talking aboutpunishment-free parenting, which
is a term that I have not saidthis to anybody else and maybe
I'm going to get in trouble withmy publisher because the
official title of my book whichI have just now finally turned

(05:11):
in the final copy of themanuscript, although it's not
quite through copy editing yetthe title that I have been
working under is punishment-freeparenting.
So this is what my passion isall about, and you're one of my
favorite people on the internetand in books to talk about this
with, and so I'm going to askyou to do something that you've.
I want our conversation to bekind of unique and not just

(05:33):
exactly what you've been on somany podcasts and talked about
this stuff.
But I do want to define twoterms here, because I feel like
we have to begin from this place.
If we're going to talk aboutpunishment-free parenting, and
the two terms are discipline andpunishment, how are those terms
different?
How can we use those termsdifferently?
And, yeah, just go with that.

Well, I'd love to hear your we can
co-create a definition, becauseyou and I are very, very
consilient in our lens.
Well, first of all, when Danand I were writing no drama
discipline, a colleague of ourswho we really respected, another
parenting author, said you know, knew we were writing a book
about discipline.
And she said please don't usethe word discipline in the title

(06:13):
of your book.
And we said well, why?
And she said, because when yousay discipline, people
immediately think, um,punishment.
They immediately you knowthat's, that's connoted in that
word.
And so Dan and I were like yeah, but the meaning of the word?
If you go back to the originalmeaning of the word, it means to
teach.
And really, when we talk aboutit from a brain perspective,

(06:35):
when we're talking aboutrepeated experiences in a brain
that's plastic and moldable fromrepeated experiences we also
add the idea of it's not thediscipline is to teach and to
build skills.
And so Dan and I were likelet's do something really bold
and let's not only use the worddiscipline intentionally in the
title of our book, but let'sreclaim the original meaning of
that word, which is to teach andto build skills.

(06:57):
Now, punishment is really tomake the child or I guess
obviously you can punish yourspouse too.
So punishment is really aboutmaking the other person have a
really unpleasant experiencejust in response to what they
did.
It's not at all based onteaching, it's not at all about

(07:18):
basic on building skills.
It's actually to create a senseof dread, pain, discomfort,
emotional distress in order tokind of give build in the idea
that if the, if this, if I makethem feel terrible, then they
won't repeat the behavior.
But that's actually not howdiscipline works.

(07:38):
So that's you can clearly tellI'm not a big fan of punishment
myself either.
And that's not to say that.
And notice, I never use theword consequences as part of the
conversation of punitiveness orpunishment, but punishment how
would you define punishment?

Yeah.
So you know, I reallyappreciate everything you just
said.
And getting back to theoriginal sense of the word for
discipline, you know mybackground being not in
psychology or developmentalpsychology but in part ancient
languages and specific ancientKoine Greek, from which we get

(08:16):
the word discipline.
I really appreciate thatbecause you don't have that
sense in Koine Greek that thereare punitive actions being taken
, it's more of the follower,right, so you have the person
who's the teacher and then youhave the disciple, or, from
which we get the word discipline.
So I really appreciate the wayin which you reframe that and I

(08:38):
would agree with that.
I also agree with your friendwho said these words are
synonymous, right, discipline.
Discipline means punishment andI have to go through that
because I think, like you said,unless you are bold enough to
call your book no drama,discipline, which I have sitting
next to me because I'm going toread a quote by the way unless

(08:58):
you're bold enough.
discipline was actually one ofour considered titles, so that
just shows you, how much nopunishment, free discipline, wow
, so like, but this is the thing, right, so so okay.
So how I would definepunishment, like, let me not
like go super adhd here and goway off the rails.
I did, I did take the meds, soI'm like we'll stay on track,
but like I think for mepunishment is is anything that's

(09:22):
retributive, right?
So like if, if you're lookingfor retribution, then it's gonna
be punitive.
And so, whether it's theoveremphasis of consequences
which, again, I have an entirechapter in my book that's about
consequences, so it's not likeconsequences-free parenting, I
think would be basically thecritique of the modern gentle

(09:45):
parenting movement, I think,some of which is justified,
which is because we don't reallyhave a right, we don't have a,
we don't have a term for, wedon't know what gentle parenting
is right, it's not a scientificterm.
So because it's not a scientificterm.

I think it's honestly very much
synonymous with permissiveparenting.
I I get put in the gentleparenting category all the time
and some of my books were kindof some of the foundational
pieces of gentle parenting.
I don't accept like that's nothow I identify at all.

Um, because I oh man, you're going to get so
canceled You're going to get soI made this video.
I made this video last week,tina, like I made this video.
It's the last video on myaccount from when we were and I
said I'm not a gentle parentbecause the way in which we
define gentle parenting is toolike, it's just too permissive,
and I don't do that and I'm notabout that.

And people were like well then, you
don't know what gentle parentingis, so I'm just no one knows
what gentle parenting is becauseit's a made up thing that's
basically kind of glumping abunch of stuff together.
So I think what we know for youknow, and we can get into this
what we've known for 80 plusyears is that kids do best when
they have high emotionalresponsiveness, connectedness,

(10:56):
nurturing.
I mean I wrote my dissertationon what I'm about to say here
many, many, many, many years agothat kids do well when they get
that gentle, respectful,connected parent plus and this
is the part that gentleparenting often leaves out plus
really sturdy, stable boundaries, limits and a grown-up who's

(11:21):
really making them feel like.
The grown-up knows what'shappening and is going to
protect them and keep them safe.

Well and even within those boundaries,
flexibility to go up to thoseboundaries Right, which I think
is that's the other side of ofmy critique of gentle parenting,
which is it leads to a gentlechildhood, which is exactly the
opposite of what you want foryour kid, for resilience, right.
Like you don't want a kid who,who is so and and and I get

(11:51):
where it comes from.
Like none of us want our kidsto hurt, like none of us want
our kid to fall off the slide.
The difference is those of uswho understand that kids falling
off the slide is a natural partof their development and is
ultimately a good thing, becausewhen they fall off the slide is
a natural part of theirdevelopment and is ultimately a
good thing, because when theyfall off the slide, then they're
less likely to jump off thesecond story window.
That, like those, that'sactually a good process.

(12:12):
And the kids who have noconsequences, whether those are
the consequences of their ownactions I climbed too high and I
couldn't get down like thoseconsequences.
Actually teach versuspunishment is is saying hey, I
am so, and this is aninteresting kind of point that I
try and make in the book.
I'm so.
So many parents are so worriedabout the actual consequences

(12:36):
their children will face thatthey impose a punishment because
they're unwilling to see theconsequence through.
And so so many parents are likeI'm afraid that my child will
be socially alienated by notsharing, and so I'm going to
punish strictly, because that'smy own shame and baggage from

(12:57):
middle school.
And so now I'm acting that outon my seven-year-old and I'm
basically assuming that this is,you know, the worst possible
scenario.
I think you guys were the oneswho talked about shark music,
right?

so like they do, the shark we did talk
about it, um, but it came from,uh, the circle of security
attachment intervention right, Ijust want to get credit the
circle of security to people'soriginal work yeah, no, for sure
, for sure.

Well, but I think I think, yeah, it's, you
guys kind of brought it in thein the parenting, the pop
parenting area, right, and so Iappreciate that you're that,
you're that you don't identifywith the term gentle parenting,
because I say that and I getlike so much push back.
Part of it is that my primarywork until the book is in social
media.
So because of that, and it's onsocial media, and so because of

(13:43):
that, I think a's on socialmedia, and so because of that, I
think a lot of people are like,hey, you're one of us, come
help us redefine this gentleparenting thing.
My thing is, I like parentingtoo much to wed it to a word,
that's.
That's.
That's currently not helping,right it's.
It's creating more harm I don'twant to say harm, but it's
creating more confusion thanit's and so it's a little bit

(14:03):
different.

And Aliza Pressman and I, in
different conversations, havehad conversations about this
very thing and and we're likewhat could we call it?
You know we never really cameup with anything that great, but
I think it was Mona.
That was like what if we calledit responsive parenting or
something?

like that, that's good.
So.
So this is why I picked wholeparenting.
So I just said, look, we coulddo respectful, we could do
connect.
These were when we started theaccount and we were looking for
the available handles.
It was like connection,responsive, respectful.
Some of those were our three,and then I landed on whole.

(14:43):
And the reason I landed onwhole was because I said, look,
ultimately this is a holisticapproach that also gets to
dealing with the parent.
And so the thing withresponsive parenting is that it
still feels to me somewhat childfocused and that it's all about
how the parent is responding.

(15:03):
And so many parents think likeI have to fake my way into that.
It's all about how the parentis responding, and so many
parents think like I have tofake my way into that response
because all that matters is thatI like do the right thing and
it's like no, no, if you don'tinternalize these principles,
like you, you can't fake yourway through this.
You're going to fall short.
And so that's why I picked whole.
Is because it's kind of acatch-all word.
I mean you guys did too for thewhole.

(15:23):
Is because it's kind of acatch-all word.
I mean you guys did too for thewhole brain child, right, Like
it's a catch-all word and it'stalks, and I got it kind of not
so much from the whole brainchild but from Brene Brown's
work of being wholehearted andand so that's what I was like.
Oh man, like that, thatprinciple really I, I, I
resonate with that.
So that's my, that's mycontribution.
I call it whole parentingbecause I feel like that.

(15:44):
Or in the book, I call itpunishment-free parenting, which
is I don't like because itdefines it by what?

it's not, but I think it's so
important what you're sayingthere because you know,
throughout all of all of the youknow, four books that Dan and I
have written together.
Um, and I actually have a bookcoming out in January of 2024,
co-authored with a playtherapist, called the Way of
Play.
In all of the books I'vewritten, we always talk about

(16:12):
it's not so much what we do butwho we are with our children,
and so and that's one of the bigproblems I have with attachment
parenting I think there aresome beautiful things that
attachment parenting supports,but you know, in my book, the
Power of Showing Up that I wrotewith Dan, you know, one of the
things we say is like I oftendefine when I start talking
about attachment and attachmentscience, I say, well, let me
start with what it's not.

(16:32):
It's not attachment parenting.
Attachment parenting is often achecklist of behaviors and
attachments never about achecklist of behaviors, and what
we do is not as much asimportant as who we are, and so
that's why I really love that.
You chose whole as your thingand, as you know, in all of my
books, at the end of eachchapter, dan and I have a
section that's about integratingourselves, or showing up for

(16:55):
ourselves, or you know thosekinds of things because it does
start with us and really we knowthat when and this is back to
the idea of discipline theresearch is very clear that
children learn best through,number one, what they do
themselves, so what theypractice, what they do, you know
what they, you know, put theirhands on and actually do

(17:16):
themselves.
And number two, what is modeledfor them and um, and so those
two things are part of you knowwe, who we are and what we do
and how whole we are, and alsounderstanding our brokenness I'm
going to use that word inresponse to whole.
Our flaws are whatever and thatwe should always be reflecting

(17:38):
on and repairing.
Those are all part of what webring and how into how our
children's brains get wired.

Those are all part of what we bring and how
into how our children's brainsget wired.
Man, I like, honestly, this isprobably the most affirming
conversation about my book.
Like you know the process,there's definitely these moments
where you're like, oh man, didI just write a terrible?
Maybe you don't have thesemoments like you're like you can
, okay, okay, that makes me feelreally good, because, because I
just imagine like oh man, howmany bestsellers do you have to

(18:06):
write until you're like oh no,it's probably no, I'll tell you.

So I just turned my manuscript in
like two months.
So I'm like two or three months, you know, ahead of you in
terms of manuscript turning ends.
Um, on this latest book.
And I go through this processevery time and my editor at
Penguin Random House is like,okay, tina, you're doing that
thing where I finished the book,I send it in and I'm like this
book sucks.
I hate this book.
No one's going to ever readthis book.
I'm not contributing to theconversation at all, like I have
all this and I am not.

(18:29):
I am not a self, I'm not anegative person like that.
I don't beat myself up.
I'm not critical of myselftypically ever.
But then when they send thecopy edits back and I get, I
read it again.
I'm like, oh, it's so good thatI get.
And then when I do the audiorecording, I fall in love with
the book.
Um and so, uh, it's you're good, you're good, you're good.

So so I'm, so I'm January, so I'm January 25
as well, so January 25 as well.
So so I, so this is my like itjust went through and we're now
it's going to.
It's through the sub edit, it'sthrough the line edit, now it's
going to copy.
So, like I, I've just had thatexperience of reading it and
going, okay, it's actually notthat bad.

(19:10):
But but this conversation,really like this, is a lot of
what I'm trying to talk about inthe book and and it's a lot of
like the hey, it's modeling,it's also learning from mistakes
and how we view mistakes andhow we can readjust the way that
we view mistakes.
So so kind of let's let's kindof go, even, let's take a step
back and ask the question so whydoesn't punishment work?

(19:31):
Because I think that this iswhere a lot of parents they see
punishment seeming to work andthey go okay, well then, this is
all that works.
And I think that what I'vetried to do, what you've tried
to do, is say, actually itdoesn't work and why?
Why doesn't it work?
What's?

what's the point?
I'll say too, we have decadesand decades of research that
show that punishment is actuallydoesn't lead to that great of
outcome.
So we, we kind of know this,but let's get into this question
.
I think you asked a reallyimportant question and I really
want to come back to somethingyou said a few minutes ago,
after I answered this questionabout fears, because one of the

(20:09):
big things I feel like has notbeen talked about and I think
it's fundamental.
I've talked about it quite abit, but it doesn't really get a
lot of airtime on podcasts.
People don't actually want totalk about it much is that?
Um, fear-based parenting iswhat often leads us to
punishment and leads us to thekinds of parenting moments that
are totally unproductive.
So I'm glad you brought that upand I'd love to come back to it

(20:29):
.
The reason that punishmentdoesn't work is because let's
talk about what does work firstand that is that the way that
children.
So let's take one more stepback, if you don't mind.
To me what why, even punish orwhy discipline or why give like?
Why discipline at all?
Why For me?
Why even punish or whydiscipline or why discipline at
all?
Why For me?
And when I talk to thousandsand thousands of parents over

(20:51):
the years, typically what Iarrive to is and I have three
children who are now older, mykids are 17 and up.
So I'm kind of on the otherside of all of the years of
doing discipline and how itcomes out.

And you have three boys, too, right, and how
it comes out.
And you have three boys, I havethree boys, so I have three
boys.
They're the best.

I mean, if I had had three girls, I
would say the same thing.
They're just kids are amazingand hard, hard, hard.
And all of mine are verydifferent, which is again why
you'll very rarely see me besuper prescriptive, Like I
typically don't come in with,you know, except things that are
based on the brain and thenervous system and relationships
.
That I know is typically.
But we have to really know ourkid and know that moment and

(21:34):
really tune into what'shappening in the moment in
ourselves and in our kids.
But why discipline at all?
Well, the point and purpose tome of discipline is that we get
that children becomeself-disciplined so that,
without us looking, without ussaying anything, without us
doing anything, they are makinggood decisions for themselves

(21:55):
and for the world out in theworld as they develop.
Now, the way that we get themthere is number one, something
that is not at all within ourcontrol, and that is development
.
As the brain develops, asdevelopment unfolds, they reach
levels of maturity that allowthem to control impulses, to
pause before action, to considerother people's feelings, to

(22:15):
consider what might happen if Ido this, what might happen if I
don't do this, and these are allprefrontal cortex capacities
that aren't fully developeduntil the late 20s.
So part of what we're talkingabout here in terms of
discipline and I often tellparents this even if you don't
do anything, just developmentunfolding will help your kid
become a more disciplined, goodhuman being.

(22:37):
So that's number one.
And then number two what doeswork, besides waiting for
development, is giving ourchildren repeated experiences
that help them get the reps.
Just like when I lift weightsand I do reps, that muscle gets
stronger when they have repeatedexperiences.
This is how the brain fires andwires.
So the repeated experiencesthey have is what wires their

(22:58):
brains.
So when we talk about discipline, I would like I could throw a
punishment out there and my kidmight feel bad, or they might.
You know, I might be forcingthem to make a retribution
that's totally meaningless.
Or, you know, maybe I spank ormaybe I um, I threatened
something, or maybe I takesomething away, or whatever I do
in the name of punishment willoften make them feel like bad,

(23:24):
but often what they actuallyfeel is that I'm unfair, and I
mean so.
It actually pulls attentionaway from the feelings that we
want them to have and the skillsthat they want to build, and I
can certainly give a specificexample around that from my own
parenting.
But I think that, um, you know,oftentimes if we're like, go to
your room, you can't have yourplay date today because you

(23:45):
clearly can't be with peopleLike, so I'm just throwing out a
punishment.
It's the first thing I think ofUm, so I throw it out there.
My kid goes in his room and hestarts thinking about how mean I
am to do this to him and it wasactually his brother's fault
and I didn't even get the wholestory and I actually love his
brother more than him.
So all of his cognitive,attentional, emotional resources
are to thinking about how it'severybody else's fault and he's

(24:08):
taking zero accountability.
So, it's actuallycounterproductive, and I would
say that 80% of what we do inthe name of discipline is
counterproductive because we'renot holding in mind that really,
what we're trying to do is givethem an experience to practice
building a skill or to learnthat skill, or to learn the
capacity to think about others,or whatever.

(24:30):
It might not be a specificskill, but an actual experience
that is firing and wiring.
And I think I'll say one morething and then I'll pause,
because I could talk for sixhours straight on this.

I'm sure we would all be the wiser for it.

One of the big questions I really try
to ask myself.
And, by the way, parents, Iwant to give you permission to
not respond to the behavior inthat moment.
You don't.
You know, we've all been toldyou have to respond in the
moment or it won't be effective.
That's true of dogs, but it'snot even true of two-year-olds.
I want to give you permissionto say I want to think about how
I want to respond to this.
Or to say you know what, let'sall go take a break.

(25:05):
I'm going to let's come back infive minutes.
We're going to talk about this.
Or, after your two-year-old hashad a nap and a snack, you can
go back and tell the story.
Let's tell the story of how youthrew your shoe at mommy's face
earlier, whatever it is like.
Come back to it responding.
And is the way I'm handlingthis moment going to move my

(25:30):
child closer to doing it betterthe next time?
And if the answer is no, it'snot effective discipline.

Right, right, and I think I think that that's
I mean, that's such a key pointand that's kind of gets to the
quote that I was going to readfrom you guys.
And I don't know, it'sinteresting when I read your
books that you've co-authoredwith others.
There are now moments where Ican see the Tina thread shining
through.
But there are often momentswhere I'm like, oh man, I don't

(26:01):
know who, really, I don't knowwhich one of you said this, and
so I think that's so cool thatyou guys can author books that
way.
I would really struggle to dothat, because I would be like oh
, I got to say it my way.
That's also why the editingprocess has been difficult.
But yeah, so I think that whatyou said is I mean so many good
nuggets in there.
But ultimately we're workingagainst their long-term

(26:23):
development when we're usingpunitive actions.
And I think that for me and Ihave kids on the younger end my
oldest is 7, not 17.
You said that your youngest is17, right, so my oldest is 7.
So when I look at and my threekids are incredibly different
too and I actually thinkprobably if parents paid really

(26:46):
really close attention toparenting which is really really
hard in an age where everybodymost parents have one or two
jobs, most parents are to someextent addicted to their phone,
most parents like and this isnot like to shame any parent
like that's just life, I thinkit's really hard to be super
attentive, but I think if wewere, we would realize that all
of our kids are so differentfrom one another.

(27:08):
So I appreciate that you saidthat, but in my case, what works
for one of my kids?
I probably could have utilizedpunishment in a way that felt
effective for my three-year-old,but because I had my
seven-year-old first, first, andit was never going to work for
him I was, so I guess the wordis blessed that like I, it just

(27:32):
never.
And then I also came out of the,out of foster care training.
So so in in foster care trainingthey tell you like this is not
going to work.
Which is why I think it's sointeresting that so many of us
just have not deconstructed theidea that punishment is the way
that we correct behavior.
Because all of the experts andnot like the you know random guy
who says which I know howironic it is that I'm saying

(27:54):
this but not the random guy whosays, then the people who are in
the trenches in large-scaleacademics and large-scale
institutional spaces like fostercare, they know and they've
known, and I think that it's theaverage parent, we're the last

(28:14):
ones to catch up often.
So, yeah, all this to say it'sreally challenging for all of us
, it's very challenging forevery parent.
And you know, I think I thinkthat the decision to go
punishment free is a good onethat most parents should take
and in fact, all I think all,all parents should take, which
is a pretty audacious claim.

(28:34):
You know, in research you'renever supposed to say all but
like, yeah, I think all parentsshould take this, this approach,
if, if for no other perspectivethan to change the mindset
around it, to be more teaching.

So, john, let's talk about
consequences then, because whenwe, when you say no punishment,
I'm thinking your listeners aresaying well, does that mean I
never give a?
I never like, what do I do Like?
So you know I used to do.
I don't do it very much anymore.
Occasionally I still do, but alot of my clinical practice,
besides doing therapy with kidsand teens, was doing parenting

(29:08):
consults.
So parents would come in for 75to 90 minutes.
They'd come in with theirquestions and we'd wrestle with
stuff and what most parents whenthey would walk in my office
would say we know what we don'twant to do, but we don't know
what we don't know what to do.

I would love to hear how do you think about
consequences?
What do you tell parents aboutconsequences?

or what do they do in the moment.
So yeah, so it's the longestchapter in the book.
I realized that in my last readthrough.
Was that it's so nuanced?

no, it's so nuanced and so so it's the
longest chapter in the book.
And the reason that it'slongest chapter chapter in the
book is because, number we haveto deconstruct the idea that all
punishment is consequences.
I guess all punishment isconsequences, but not all
consequences is punishment.
That's beautifully said, numberone, and you can correct me if

(30:01):
I'm wrong at this point.
I don't know if I can change itin the book, but we'll find out
.
Copy editing.
I say that, yeah, copy editing,I still have a shot, you know.
I say that logical consequencesare a great option if natural
consequences are either tooextreme and become punitive, or
are have have zero effect.

(30:22):
And so my hierarchy forconsequences is the idea that
parents should do something inthe moment.
Almost never should you doanything other than maybe shut
your mouth and walk away, unlessimminent harm is going to come
to someone, in which case youhold the boundary, you take away
the you know chainsaw that yourkid is playing with, and then

(30:44):
yeah, and then you come back tothe situation right right, well,
right, and, and actually youknow, that's what's so
interesting to me and this islike where I get into the gentle
parenting like man I this is.
This is why it's there's so muchnuance.
I know parents who are likeyeah, I went punishment free.
But these parents are stillvery have not done any work

(31:07):
around how brutal their ownchildhoods were, and so they go.
I went punishment free.
Now I just use naturalconsequences.
And I'm like oh, can you giveme an example?
And they're like well, mydaughter forgot to bring water
on our walk.
And I'm like okay, so how wasthe natural consequence?
Like she got thirsty and youhad to walk back to the car.
It's like no, no, we weren'tgoing to go back.
She was just super dehydratedby the time we got back to the
car after 10 miles and Iactually had to carry her back

(31:29):
the last mile because she hadpassed out.
And I'm like not a naturalconsequence?
I mean, I guess a naturalconsequence, but highly punitive
at that point.

Yeah.

Right.
So I would say, at the best weallow our children to face the
consequences of their ownactions.
When those are proportional,then and then I have a whole way
, a whole acronym for how we dological consequences.
Then the next step is to askare consequences warranted?
Am I being reasonable in thismoment?
Most of the time that we'redisciplining, historically we're

(32:00):
not being reasonable, likeparents get triggered and then
we do kind of our worstparenting is.
Is the consequence associatedright to the actual action
that's been taken by the child?
Is the consequence even related, in other words, to what
they're doing?
Or am I just saying give meyour iPad for a week, like that
prop?
Then that just is going to leadto mom's a jerk, dad's a jerk,

(32:22):
and then is it proportional?
And so I think, if we canhandle those things, once the
natural consequences potentiallyfail like, for example, your
kid doesn't clean up their messand the natural consequences
it's messy.
Well, the kid might not care,like I just don't care that it's
messy, not a good naturalconsequence if there's no impact
.
So then we ask okay, well, is aconsequence warranted?

(32:43):
Maybe Cleaning up the room canbe a consequence.
Am I being reasonable If I'mfeeling pretty solid and in my
prefrontal cortex and notreactive, be afraid or
experience either physical,mental, emotional or relational
pain, which I think basicallyall punishment does.

I think you know one of the ways I like
to think about all of this isthe idea that you know,
obviously our child's safety isfirst, and I mean actual safety
like physical safety, I don'tyou know, I don.
I mean actual safety likephysical safety, I don't you
know.
I don't mean that they don'tlike it, I mean like they're
going to get, they're going toburn their hand on the stove
whatever they're going to runinto the street.

So their physical safety is the very
front burner.

The next front burner is the
relationship, and any particularbehavior is back burner.
Um, or to say it this way, tosay it a different way, front
burner is relationship, backburner is behavior.
Unless it's a life-threateningone, then that's a first.
But I think before we even,like, get to the consequences
thing, we have to remember thatif the whole point and purpose
is to teach and build skills sothey become self-disciplined,

(33:59):
then they have to be in a statein their nervous system in which
they can learn.
So that's why, in you know, inour no drama discipline approach
, we really talk about the ideathat the brain is either in a
reactive state where it can'tlearn this is what tantrums look
like, this is whatdisrespectful, you know backtalk
looks like slamming door, likeall of the stuff that our kids
do often when they're reactivein the moment, or that we do

(34:22):
when we're reactive in themoment.
So either the brain's in areactive state or it's in a
receptive state in which it'sready to.
So the first step is is my childready to learn and am I ready
to teach?
If the answer is no to eitherof those questions, it's not the
right time.
And so, in the name ofdiscipline and by that I mean
teaching and skill building thefirst thing we have to do is get

(34:42):
our kid receptive, and the waywe do that is through connection
, relationship, regulation, time, space, nurture, whatever it
takes.
And the biggest pushback I geton that is well.
So you're going to hug them andyou're going to be like I can
see you're having such a hardtime right now.
Buddy, I'm right here with youand you're reinforcing bad
behavior.
And I say no, I'm notreinforcing bad behavior.

(35:04):
I'm giving their brain a rep ofgoing from a dysregulated state
back into a regulated state sothat they can do that for
themselves, which is number onefor self-discipline.
And then, once they'rereceptive, then I'm going to ask
the discipline questions whichwe have in no drama.
Discipline is what is it?
You know, what was what's?
Let's chase the why like what'sthe why behind this behavior?

(35:25):
What was really happening there?
And then the second thing iswhat is it I want my child to
learn or do differently?
And then the third question ishow do I effectively support
having giving them an experienceto help them do that?
So it's that framework.
Before I ever think aboutconsequences, I'm a big fan of
natural consequences.
Even experts who go on nationaltelevision shows get this wrong

(35:46):
.
So let's be really clear.
Natural consequences are thethings that happen without you
doing anything.
So your child leaves their baton the baseball field.
You go back an hour later whenyour kid remembers that the
bat's gone.
That's a natural consequence.
You didn't call someone and say, hey, go, steal my kid's bat to
teach them a lesson, you knowwhatever.

Logical, logical consequence steal my
kid's bat to teach them a lessonyou know whatever.

When a natural consequence happens, we
actually often pile on thelecture at that point and that
actually becomes punitivebecause we're making them feel
worse.
Instead, what's more effectiveis to be like you loved that bat
.
That's so disappointing, likewe can actually authentically
feel with our child with empathyabout that, and then we can do

(36:27):
some problem solving, say, youknow, what do you think we could
do?
Like I know you need a new bat,what should we do?
How do you think we shouldhandle this?
You know, and you kind ofproblem solve with your child,
giving them reps, using theirprefrontal cortex to be part of
the problem solving.
If it's not, and then a logicalconsequence is something that
makes sense, connected to thething that it is to help them

(36:48):
learn to do better the next time.
So, um, it's funny, like lotsof times, people like when we
talk about like, oh, I don't useconsequences, I only have
reflective dialogues.
I'll tell you I won't give thespecifics to protect my child's
privacy, but about three weeksago one of my kids, um, was
dishonest about something andhad violated, uh, um, uh, a

(37:12):
limit that we had agreed upon.
And so we sat down and I saidyou know, I know, you know
that's not okay.
So what happened?
Tell me about this.
And we had a conversation andthen I said hey, I want to talk
to dad about this, and thenlet's all talk together about
how we want to handle this goingforward, because this isn't
okay and I don't want to seethis again.
So we need to come up with adifferent plan together.

(37:33):
And so why don't you thinkabout that too?
So then we came back togetherthe next day and we had like a
30 minute conversation.
It was really sweet.
My son said I know I've brokentrust.
And I said you have not brokentrust.
You have made so many trustdeposits, you made a withdrawal
from the thing and you caneasily make more deposits, you
know.
And so there's, it's allrestoration.

(37:53):
We can refill that, but at theend of that of the conversation
he smirked and I said what?
And he said I'm just not goingto do that again so I don't have
to have this kind of aconversation again.
So even the dialogue feel likeour kids don't want to do that,
they don't want to sit andwrestle, and they feel our
disappointment.
That is a consequence.
So I think anybody who says I'mI don't do any consequences

(38:16):
Well, even the look on your faceor the conversation you have
with your child can be seen as aconsequence.
It's really.
I think we just need to be lessrigid around, you know, saying
it's this or it's not this orwhatever.
We have to be really nuanced,and so the whole point and
purpose, though, of if, how andwhy and when we use consequences

(38:38):
, should be intentional andthoughtful, and it should be in
service of giving them anexperience that helps them move
toward being able to do itbetter the next time not, and I
think I think right so so I'mgonna read the quote, because
you just said it and you said itso beautifully and no drama
discipline that I have to readit please, I haven't all right,
so here's okay.

So, um, it comes from the uh 20 discipline
mistakes, even great parentsmake, and this is the quote I've
made.

I've made on my Instagram account.
I actually maybe this week,maybe this week.
Yeah, exactly, maybe, maybetoday.
Um, on my Instagram account Iactually like went through I did
mistake Mondays and there was aperiod of time where I kind of
went through one every Mondayand I was like I could do this
series forever because we makelots of mistakes every.

Monday and I was like I could do this series
forever because we make lots ofmistakes, I, you know.
And, man, like I feel like thisis, this is a moment.
I mean, let me read thisbecause I feel like this is a
moment.
Okay.
So it says you're, um, it'sfrom this, uh, mistake one
number one.
It says and this is the textbehind it says the goal of
discipline is not to make surethat each infraction is
immediately met with aconsequence.
The real goal of discipline isto teach our children how to

(39:48):
live well in the world, and Ithink that that is that
statement alone.
I think I remember reading thatthe first time and going, oh,
and that might've been I, I it'shard to say like there there's
like a moment of like, oh,eureka, this is the work I need
to do.
But that was the moment where Iwent.

(40:09):
I agree so much with this, buthow did I not?
know, this Like what, I don'teven like.
What year did no dramadiscipline come out Like 2015?

or something.
So it's almost 10 years old,okay.

So, so, almost 10 years old, I I probably read
that quote in 2020.
So, five years after it hadcome out, I read it and I went
how was this not?
And maybe it was nationaldialogue, but how was this not
never presented to me?
Not to mention whole brain,whole brain child's, what?
2012.
So like that's, so that'sanother three years before that.

(40:44):
So, like how, how is this justnot part of the dialogue?
And and I think that that isreally really important and and
I think part of the reason whyit's not part of the dialogue
and this is kind of the pointthat you just made I think the
reason why my account blew up inthe way that it did was not
that I was saying anything new.
I think three things.
One, I think the way in which Icommunicate is pretty

(41:06):
approachable, which I think isgood, right, that's just a good
thing to be, and I think themore that we can continue to be
approachable with conversationslike the one that we're having,
I think the more this dialoguecan be furthered.
Second thing is that I was aguy saying it, which I think,

(41:27):
and I wasn't a guy with a, witha, with an MD or a PhD behind my
name saying it, so I was just adad saying it.
I think that that's important,but I think number three is that
I own all of the mistakes, sothat's the thing that you know.
We were chatting before we evenstarted and I'm not going to
name names.
But one of the struggles that Ithink that we see on social
media especially, but even inparenting books that are

(41:48):
published, even in podcasts, isthat all of the people who are a
little bit insecure in theirexpertise and they're like I'm
talking about parenting, but I'mnot always perfect.
You didn't want to see me inTarget yesterday.
They don't say that, thoughThey'll just continue to kind of
further this.
Look at all these amazing funactivities that I did over the
Easter weekend with my kids andit's like, yeah, but what about

(42:12):
the moment at the end of Easterwhere your kid didn't want to go
to bed because you've beencompletely out of routine and
you were at somebody's house andyou didn't get home in time for
bath time and so all of theneural pathways associated with
melatonin released didn't fire.
So then your kids jumping offthe walls and oh, by the way,
they just had 14 chocolate eggson the way home and they

(42:33):
probably needed to wash them up,but you didn't really.
And so, like they're likefeeling sticky, and then, like
right before they fall asleep,they're like I'm sticky and
you're just gonna sleep like.
You didn't talk about that,though, and so, because you
didn't, you feel like and thisis where I, we can kind of
return as a punishment for yourparenting but, like, because
none of us are owning that and Ithink you do a good job of that

(42:53):
, I try and do a good job ofthat.
I think eliza does a good jobof that.
I know that my friend eli,who's does it she's based
parenting does a good job ofthis.
Like, all of us are trying toforward this idea, because when
you don't talk about that, thenit feels unattainable, and so
that's.
I think the question is, we'vetalked about consequences, okay,
how, this is a betteralternative to punishment, but

(43:16):
really, what do we do?
Like, when we're not going tobe a perfect parent all the time
?
How do we deal with that?
Because I think that's thething where people go.
I can't become a punishment forparenting, because I I have to
have this in my back pocket,because I'm afraid that I'm
going to have no tools, and whatdo I do if I fall short?

I think I think again you came back to
that the F word fear, uh,fear-based parenting, and I will
say that when I reflect afterI've been the parent, I hope not
to be, which happens all thetime and I will say has happened
less and less and less overtime as I've practiced this
approach to parenting and it'sbecome more wired in my brain to

(43:58):
be more automatic.

And yeah, you, Tina, would you say that you've
built some neural pathwaysaround the way that you like to?

talk about it all the time.
I'm always setting my intentionright, so it's like it's.
I get all those reps all thetime in terms of my lens.
But also I will say it's a loteasier not to yell as kids get
older, because it's easier inmany, many ways.
They're, you know they're nothaving meltdown, you know they
go, they say I'm going to bed ateight, 30 and you don't see
them, but you know they're up,you know talking to their
friends or you know whatever.
So I think you don't have thetrenches kind of thing.

(44:26):
It's not to say that teenagersare easier, although I will say,
um, I felt like age four wasthe hardest for all three of my
kids and I have 24, 21 and 17year old kids now.
So those of you withfour-year-olds hanging there,
fear-based parenting.
So almost all when I reflect,almost always my my moments when
I'm not the parent I want to beand I go against what I believe

(44:49):
in terms of this lens thatwe've been talking about, are
always rooted in fear for me,and I think what happens is, you
know, and there's a lot offear-based parenting that gets
stoked on social media too, likestuff like let your kids sleep
in bed with you.
They'll never sleep on theirown.
Or maybe your pediatriciantells you that that's not true.
There's no.
If this, then this forever forevery kid.
That's just not the way itworks, and I think you know,

(45:12):
like I.
I love to tell a story about atime my my kid he was probably
seven or eight at the time and Ihad offered to pick him up
after school and take him to theSticky Theater.
It's not actually called that,but it's a discount theater, so
it's really.
It was gross inside.
So I was like hey, I'm going topick you up after school and he
was like, really that's so fun,Like he was super excited,
grateful, just the response Iwanted from him.

(45:32):
And then he says can I getpopcorn?
And I said, no, we're notgetting popcorn today.
We've already had too much junkfood.
I'll bring a snack.
And when I pick you up and he,he pouted.
You know arms folded, you knowpouting.
And so what, what happensimmediately for me is it moves
me from like it's now, that'snot what I expected, it's not
what I hoped for, but itimmediately moves me to a

(45:54):
fear-based place that my kid isentitled, he's spoiled, he's a
brat, he doesn't understand thehelp, how much privilege he has.
You know all of these things.
And so that leads me to want tobe like I'm not taking you to
the movies, which is totallypunitive, you know.
It makes me my first response,even knowing everything that I
know and practicing, is to sayguess what?
I am in charge here, I'm incontrol of you and I'm going to

(46:17):
take this away from you.
That's my first instinct is tosay, fine, we're not going to
the theaters.
If you're going to pout, youdon't get to go.
But what I did instead in thatmoment, which is it's much more
helpful because I have tons andtons of terrible parenting
moments.
Throwing, like after playingYahtzee with my boys, I threw
the dice across the room, yelledat them because they were
fighting and I lost my mind.
Um, so I have lots and lots ofparenting fails.

(46:39):
But in this moment I firstregulated myself and then I said
to him um, something justhappened.
When I said go to the movies,you got so excited.
When I said no popcorn,something happened, what
happened?
So I start with curiosity andhe says I'm disappointed.
I love movie popcorn.
I don't get it very often andI'm just, I really wanted it.

(47:03):
And so I say, yeah, sometimeswhen we want something and we
don't get it, that can feelreally disappointing.
Um, so what?
I did so and and and I said nowwe're not getting popcorn, but
we can still go to the movies,Would you still like to go?
So I'm still holding myboundary of no popcorns.
I'm not saying fine, you canhave popcorn.
So that's where I'm emotionallyresponsive, connected, gentle,

(47:25):
and I'm using air quotes when Isay that while holding the
boundary.
And what happens then afterwards?
Then is after that moment, Isay to myself behavior is
communication.
Him pouting, told me something.
His behavior there just said,hey, mom, you know those those
skills about being grateful andunderstanding, privilege and all
those things, I don't havethose yet.

(47:46):
So in my mind I'm like, OK, mykid's behavior just added
something to my list of.
Instead of doing something tomy kid punitive, I'm taking the
movie away.
What do I need to do for mychild to help him have repeated
experiences, to build his brain,to have that skill?
And so then I think, okay, whatkind of repeated experiences?
Okay, we can have a gratitudepractice that we can start at

(48:07):
dinner.
We haven't done that for awhile, so we're going to do that
and we're going to actuallytalk about, maybe, how people in
the world live.
Um, and I also, though in thatmoment, taught him.
So if discipline is all aboutteaching, I also taught him.
Him he can have more than oneemotion at once he can feel
excited about, and disappointedabout the popcorn, but I think,
let's say I had screamed at him,taken away the movies.

(48:28):
Um, you know, told him he was aspoiled brat.
What I need to do in thatmoment after that is to start
with curiosity with myself,because shame spiral just
actually makes me more likely tobe reactive again the next time
.
Shame actually primes ournervous system to be more
reactive.
So instead I go to curiosity.
I really want to be gentle withmyself and say okay, tina, that

(48:50):
was not ideal.
What got in the way?
This is the question.
I literally asked myself whatgot in the way of you being the
parent?
You would have wanted to be inthat moment and I would say to
my kid oh, I wish I hadn't donethat.
Um, can I have a do over, right?
And then I might say to myselfyou know what?
I acted that way because Ihaven't had anything to eat all
day, I haven't peed by myself inthree years and I'm exhausted.

(49:12):
Or I might say, when my kid doesthat it reminds me of my dad
who really wounded me you know,or I'm pissed at my husband, or
whatever it is, but it begins tothen create a space for me to
say what is it that I need sothat I'm ready?
To stay receptive and get mykid receptive.

Man, I love, I love that so much.
Can I give you a?
Can I give you a quote, that'sin the book.
So, so, um, I talk about and Isay in those moments when we
fall short of our best, perfectstandard for parenting for
ourselves, in the same way thatpunishment is ineffective as a
way of teaching our children,punishment is ineffective in the

(49:57):
way of teaching ourselves.
So, in the same way that shamedoes not teach your children to
not do that thing again, shamewill not teach you to not do
that thing again.
Beating yourself up is no, nobetter, no more effective than
beating up your kid, and itactually the research shows that
actually makes us more likelyto do it again.
Yeah, of course, and not onlythat.
Yeah, I would say it's.

(50:18):
It's like it's almost the worstthing you can do, which I know
sounds like really, you know,hyperbolic, but like when you
beat yourself up, you're morelikely to do it again.
That's first because now youhave all of those shame
associations and now the nexttime your kid does it, you're
going to be even more reactive,because you've re, you know,
those neural pathways from yourchildhood around shame, around
being ungrateful.

(50:38):
Now you've just you've justfired those again, so like they
got deeper.
So that's that's number one.
Number two you also model toyour kid that when you do a
thing that you don't like, thatthis is how you effectively cope
is by, as my therapist says,beating the shit out of yourself
, so like and my dad did thatlike when he was the parent that

(51:02):
he didn't want to be like.
I watched him just get down onhimself about it and so like.
That's what I do.
And guess what myseven-year-old does when he
doesn't hold up to the perfectstandard?
Like so much self-shame, solike.
I think that's the the secondpiece, and then the third piece
is that shame then leads to thewell, I'm no good and there's no

(51:24):
real reason that I should betrying anyway, and I think that
that's the thing about saying nodrama, discipline, saying
punishment-free parenting, likehowever you want to phrase that.
I think ultimately, at the core, what we have to understand is
that we're probably not going tobe completely punishment free
for our whole lives, although bysetting that intention, trying

(51:47):
hard, we're going to build theneural pathways that we might be
able to be.
And I think you know I'll sayone kind of one more thing to
kind of wrap us, because I knowwe're kind of coming to the end
here of our time.
You said, you know, parentingteenagers isn't any easier, and
then you kind of said, well,actually, I think four years old
is the hardest.
I think that's really tellingbecause I think we say this

(52:08):
culturally like, well, eachstage is difficult.
But I actually and this iscoming from a person who, who
has only helped people who areparenting teenagers, has not
parents of teenagers themselvesparenting teenagers has not
parents of teenagers themselvesI actually don't necessarily
agree that teenagers aren'teasier when we parent
effectively when they're young.
I actually think parentingwithout punishment is maybe the

(52:32):
harder way to parent atwo-year-old, four-year-old,
seven-year-old meaning you don'tget the compliance as quickly,
as easily.
Um, as you have to do much morework, self-work, in those early
years it's harder.
But when they're 10, 14, 17,especially 24, 34, now I think

(52:57):
you've set yourself up, you'redoing, you're playing the long
game the whole time, instead ofhaving to like, rework and redo
and oh well, I did thispunishment and compliance thing
and you never learned how tomake decisions.
And now I have to deal with a16 year old who never learned
how to make decisions.
I think that's why parents say,oh, each age is like equally
hard.
Well yeah, because each agecomes with challenges.

(53:18):
But if you're training thosechallenges at six, they're not
going to be the same challengesat 16.

That's exactly right and I will say,
you know I've loved my boysteenage years and you know the
stakes are higher, the fears arebigger.

Yes.

But I will say my kids, you know
sibling conflict.
My kids fought a lot when theywere little, lot when they were
little.
When my kids became like 16, 13and 10, really the last seven
years there's been almost zerosibling conflict between them.

(53:53):
Not that they don't say shittythings to each other whatever,
but we don't.
We have not dealt with thatbecause we did so much work
around that when they werelittle.
And I will say you know, theteenage years can be really
challenging, but this is what Ihave to come back to control in
just a second.
On this, I have loved theteenage years and you know,
we're certainly trying to figureout the dance differently and I
will say it, for me and myfamily and my kids, the teenage

(54:15):
years have been vastly easierthan early years, because I feel
like we've been doing, we'vebeen building the brain, We've
been working on a whole brain.
No drama, discipline, yes,Brain power, showing up,
approach to parenting.
But here's where where I thinkthat um and this is not to say
that this is true for everybody,because there are some kids who

(54:36):
are neurodiverse and there aresome parents who are
neurodiverse and there arefamilies where trauma has
happened and there are familieswhere um there are um, really
significant stressors and um,and there are health issues and
there are mental health issuesand things.
So this is not at all to like.
You know, families aredifferent.
We want to really honor that.
But I will say that where Ithink the things can really go

(55:00):
sideways during the adolescentyears, more so than the early
childhood years, but still inthe early childhood years is
around the idea of control.
And one of the things I say toparents is, if you are relying
on punishment, threat andcontrol to regulate your child's
behavior, you will always loseeventually.

(55:20):
Because when you say to your 15year old and my, my boys, by the
time they were four.
I'm five, four and my boys areall six feet ish by the time
they were 14, they were waytaller than me.
If I said to my 14 or 15 yearold, you're not going out this
weekend?
If they said, yes, I am, myonly options are to try to

(55:46):
physically restrain them, whichwould be ridiculous, or to call
law enforcement.
So if I'm in a real and I'm notgoing to, I'm not going to do,
I'm not going to do that.

Right Not not to prove a point.
Right, not not if not.
If you're like personal safetyAlso, that would communicate to
my kids.

I'm actually not in control, I have
to rely on somebody else.
I remember one time we were ata restaurant and one of my boys
was being a little wild and Iremember at one point I said, oh
, here comes the man, here comesthe waiter.
And my kid immediately wentlike this and I was like, wow,
that really worked.
But that was one of the worstthings I could have said there,
because what I just said to mykid is I'm relying on somebody

(56:20):
else to manage you.
I can't do that, I'm totallyineffective to do that, and
we're going to behave becausewe're afraid or we're going to
rely on control.
So I realized that was aterrible parent thing to do,
relying on power and control.
And that's especiallyproblematic if you have girls,

(56:49):
because I also in my formersocial work past was a domestic
violence victim advocate and Iwill say power and control is
actually what leads to all kindsof really dangerous things in
relationships down the road.
So we don't want to model thatanyway.
But when we're talking for ourboys as well not only girls, but
I think when we're relying onpower and control and threat
based parenting, we will alwayslose.
And so when you don't do thatwhen they're young, when they

(57:10):
get to be teenagers, you'reactually not trying to control
them, and that's one of thethings, developmentally, that
they push most against.
So if you're in collaborativeconversation and you're saying
this is an issue we need tosolve together, you still have
firm boundaries and limits.
But one of my and this is like Iknow you love to give like
really practical hat kinds ofthings One of my favorite things

(57:32):
to do is starting when they'relittle, but especially in the
teenage years is to it'ssomething happens, is to say to
them I know you know the lectureI really want to give you right
now.
So you give it to me.
Tell me what I would say rightnow.

And they literally, and I'm like, oh my
God, they've been listening tome Like I feel so much better.

Um, and then they're saying it
themselves.
They're hearing themselves sayit it's a much better, like they
say, if you want to learnsomething.

I know, yeah, I think, no, I think it's so.
So I call this role reversaland it's one of my, it's one of
my hacks at the end of the bookand, um, yeah, I think you like
listed three of my hacksactually just now as you went
through, but, but, but, but oneof them I call role reversal and
and I actually the way that Iframe it is not only like in
order to learn something, youreally have to teach it.

(58:19):
How many times, tina, whenyou've had them do that, do they
say something that you wouldn'thave said, right?
Like they actually say whatthey need to hear, not what you
necessarily?

would have said More than that.
They actually will be moreresponsible than what I would
have called for, you know, orthey might say so, because
usually the follow-up questionis okay.
So what do we need to do tomake sure this doesn't happen
again, or how are we going tohandle this the next time?

And and usually what they come up with
is far better than what I would-Far more and often far more
restrictive, like the funnything that I do with my seven.
I do this my seven year old andit's so funny that, like I'll
be like OK, so we're reallyhaving, we're struggling to hold
boundaries around the iPad.
Like we're really how can weand this is the example that I
use in the book forcollaborative discipline is like

(59:07):
what do you need for me to getoff the iPad when it's time to
get off?
And he's like you know, I thinkI need to take a break from it
for for a little while.
And I'm like wow, okay, saymore, okay.
And he's like yeah, I think,like maybe like two months.
And I'm like can we start withlike a week and then see how you
feel and parent and everyonelike man, it's so funny that,

(59:31):
like when you do this work andyou actually do it this way, it
seems unbelievable to theparents that, like are not doing
it this way, because, like,every parent just rolled their
eyes when I said that, becausethey're like oh my, my kid would
have they're always trying toget away with something.
He would have said, like, takeit away for an hour and then
like, oh, then no.
Like when, when they actuallyunderstand that every boundary
that you put in place, every andand in your movie theater

(59:53):
example, right, I think there isa moment to hold that boundary.
There also is a moment to saylike, yeah, you know what, why
don't we get that popcorn?
Let's just not have it today,let's just like put it in a
plastic bag.
You really like movie theaterpopcorn.
We're not going to go back fora couple of weeks.
Like that flexibility to isbeing like, hey, I, I, I care
about the harm, I don't careabout the control.

(01:00:16):
And I think those moments likeactually become and so that
flexibility, even within theboundaries, to say like, yeah,
we're still going to hold theboundary, but but maybe we can
hold it in a different way.
Those moments when your kidtruly believes that you're on
their team, like the disciplinegets easy.
Because, like there's neverbeen a time.

(01:00:36):
So my son's sick right now.
He's really struggling takinghis amoxicillin.
He has sensory stuff.
It makes his stomach hurt, buthe's got to take it.
Like did I have a 45 minuteconversation with a seven year
old about antibiotic resistantbacteria and the threat that it
causes to humanity as a whole.
And he's like this kid justlike was, like it's so hard I'll
do it for human Like but likehe's like I feel better so I

(01:01:02):
don't take it right.
It makes sense, but like peopleare like that's crazy.
Why would you try and explainthat to us?
I don't know, it's like becausehe asked I think john so I think
that that's so important, oneof the key things that I think
is is underlying our wholeconversation.

Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D (01:01:15):
That I haven't yet said is the idea of
assuming that we are the leaderlike so there?
So I think a lot of times whenwe're like, no, you're not
getting the popcorn and you'renever having popcorn your entire
childhood or whatever it is,that comes from an insecurity
about me being in charge.
If I assume and feel secure thatI am in charge, it actually

(01:01:39):
gives me and my kid a sense thatI don't have.
I actually don't have to berigid.
So I talk about how we don'thave to change our minds.
I mean, we don't.
We can change our minds evenafter.
I mean, I've certainly setboundaries or limits that are
ridiculous.
Like you can't swim the wholesummer or you can't go to
grandma's house now, but I'mlike I have to go, I have to
take you to grandma's housebecause I have a dentist
appointment.
So we lay these boundaries down.

(01:02:02):
But if I am secure that I'm incharge and that I'm the leader,
then I can easily say you knowwhat?
And there's a huge.
I can say you know what?
You made a really good point.
I'm going to change my mind Now.
I will say two caveats to that.
One is there's a hugedifference between saying fine,
you can have the popcorn.

Jon @wholeparent (01:02:21):
Yes, yes, yes, yes yes.

I'm going to change my mind because
I'm still in charge, and I'mchanging my mind versus I'm
giving into you, and it's a hugedifference because it teaches
our kids those repeatedexperiences.
If I whine and yell, I'm goingto get what I want.
We don't want them to do that.
But the other piece is thatright you know, I think if we
are secure in knowing that we'rein charge, it does allow us to

(01:02:44):
be less rigid, and that'sanother one of the 20 discipline
mistakes we talked about in thebooks.
It's not, it doesn't have to,you don't have to be rigid.
But the other thing I will sayis if you have a kid who's a
really good negotiator, so ifyou do that occasionally,
they're like oh well, there'sroom to argue, there's room to
negotiate, you, there's room tonegotiate.
It's actually an incrediblywonderful skill for the
prefrontal cortex to try to dothat, because your kid has to
think about your mind and what'sgoing to.

(01:03:05):
You know what's going to appealto you.
And they're like, but we couldhave more time together.
And they're like, oh, that'sgoing to appeal to mom.
You know, one of the things Ihad one kid in particular who
would just push and push, andpush until I would then lose it,
and then I would just you know.
So what I learned with that one, with that kid, is once I said,
yes, we can have one more book,or sure, we can, I'll change my

(01:03:29):
mind about that.
Once I said, but I'm notchanging my mind, then I
wouldn't change my mind.
And so then in the future, thenext time I would say we're not
doing that and I'm not changingmy mind, then it would stop.

Then we wouldn't have the constant
pushing and negotiating, whichwas really important.
I've yeah, I've definitelygotten there, so, so I
definitely have one who's apusher like that.

Tina Payne Bryson (01:03:51):
Unfortunately , he's my, he's my two year old,
so it's my youngest too.

So but but think there is.
I definitely have gotten to thepoint of saying, like you know,
I'm sorry we can't do that, andand even reflecting back
because he's too like you wantmom right now mom's not here
Like at least acknowledgingright, I'm not going to change

(01:04:17):
my mind Even in saying thatyou're saying I hear you.
Not going to change my mindeven in saying that you're
saying I hear you, and that, Ithink, is another really
important aspect that kids, kidshave to feel seen, heard and
valued before they care aboutwhat your discipline is
otherwise you're just the tyrant, and I love that.
You said that it's it's aninsecurity.
I think that that's very, veryaccurate and I think that that

(01:04:39):
for so many, especially men whoI talk to, it's like man, I
don't feel I feel out of controlwith these kids and because of
that, I have to like really lockdown and and what's so
interesting is that, likeanybody who's studied martial
arts which I haven't, but I'vetalked to people who, um, knows
that like that, like trying tobe the immovable object, is just

(01:05:03):
the way that you are going toget taken down every time by the
5-4 judo expert who's who'shalf your weight because, like,
if you try and be rigid, likeyou are so unbalanced, and I
think that that's the truth isthat the moment that I became
the parent more often than notthat's an Elisa Pressman the

(01:05:24):
moment that I became the parentmore often than not, that I
wanted to be, was the momentwhen I realized that I could be
flexible and still be, be andstill be the parent, and I think
that that's in the leader andgood leaders do this.
I mean this is not to get intospecific politicians, but like
this is one of my measuringsticks for politicians is like
how do you like, when you'retalking about things, how do you

(01:05:46):
respond to somebody making agreat point?
Like, do you respond with?
Like no, that's actually areally good point, and I haven't
considered that, and Idefinitely will consider that
here.

Here's my response to that off the cuff
man that I'm like, I'm like,like, let me follow that woman
usually totally, totally, youknow not usually the men, but
the power of showing up dan andI, which is all about secure
attachment, how we cultivate it,knowing that it's one of the
best predictors for how wellkids turn out on everything
they're measured on um is thatfor me.
That's it's.

(01:06:16):
It talks about the four s's andit's my north star, which are
safe, seen soothedothed.
So at your worst, that's whenyou most need connection, um and
secure and knowing someone'sgoing to show up for you so.
I think even in those disciplinemoment, like for me, that also
is part of the frame of thinkingabout.
Discipline is am I respondingin a way that helps my kid feel

(01:06:36):
safe and seen and soothed andsecure, knowing I'm going to
keep showing up no matter what,no matter how they behave, et
cetera, and um and then um,really I, I can then be flexible
.
I can then, you know, hold myboundary and say, you know, say
what we, what we talk about inseveral books is the idea that
you can say no to a behaviorwhile saying yes to your child

(01:06:59):
and their experience of thebehavior we said that you know,
many, many years ago.
And Aliza Pressman has abeautiful way of saying it.
She says all behaviors are notwelcome, but all feelings are
welcome.
So that's the kind of thingwhere I can say I'm not changing
my mind about the popcorn, butif you need to be sad about that
, it's okay, I'm right here withyou while you're feeling sad
about the popcorn, right Likeyeah, I say to, I say to my kids

(01:07:19):
you can be as mad at me as youwant to be.
I can handle your big feelingsand I trust that you can handle
your big feelings ofdisappointment or sadness or
unfairness that your brothergets to stay up later than you.
I trust that you can handlethose big feelings.
I'm not going to overprotectyou from those feelings and
experiences, knowing that theway we become resilient is by

(01:07:39):
practicing dealing withdifficult experiences and
feelings and those kinds ofthings.
Yeah, I kind of have thisformula I made up that's
oversimplified, but the idea isyou know, adversity minus
connection or support is whatleads to fragility and adversity

(01:08:02):
plus.

support and connection leads to resilience,
but not too much support and notbubble wrapping right.

That's a different whole thing.

Yeah, that's similar to the Harvard school
Ruler the different types of.
Yeah, it's not ruler, it's thedifferent types of traumas.
Right, the ruler is the.

Yale Center for Racial Intelligence
right.

Positive, tolerable, toxic right, and it's
the adversity is like.
Those are the positivestressors Adversity plus
connection is the tolerable oris.
Is the is the positive, the toomuch adversity but still
connection.
Is the tolerable and then theany adversity with no connection
?
is the toxic and I think so.
So I think that that's aperfect way of of kind of well,

(01:08:46):
that's a perfect way of ending.
I mean, we could go back andforth.
I have so much more to ask youall.
We'll have to have you back onsoon, um, but yeah, but this has
been such a such a helpfulconversation.
Thank you, tina.
Where can we find you?
What's the work that you'reworking on right now?
What can we be excited for?

I'm excited about the Way of Play,
co-authored with Georgie, who isa play therapist, and it's
called the Way of Play, out inJanuary 25.
And it's about how to play withour children.
Lots of parents know, you knowwe think of play as a way to
pass time or just something ourkids want to do, and it's really
boring and most parents don'tlike it.
So this is like sevenstrategies for how to play with

(01:09:24):
your kids in ways that buildrelationship, build skills and
make it more fun for you andit's a way of being.
That's why it's called the wayof play, and you can find me on
social media at Tina PayneBryson and my website's
tinabrysoncom.

Awesome.
Thank you so much for being onthe podcast.
I'm so excited about the workthat you're doing and your book,
so thank you so much for havingme we'll have to have, like uh
uh, an exchange of instagramstory or something in january 25
, when we're both putting outthe books.
Yeah, awesome, thanks for havingme guys, I hope that you
enjoyed that episode listeningto it as much as I enjoyed

(01:10:00):
recording it.
Um, I don't think that'spossible, but if you did, that's
fantastic and if you did, thereis absolutely no reason why you
shouldn't jump on right now towhatever podcasting platform
you're listening to and write areview, if that's available, and
definitely rate this podcastfive stars, because I'm telling
you, this was an epic episodefor me.

(01:10:22):
I feel like we talked about somany of the different pieces, so
many of the misconceptions thatpeople come away with, so many
of the just the basics ofhealthy parenting, and we even
push back, you know, on some ofthe things that maybe aren't as
healthy parenting that come offas healthy parenting on social

(01:10:44):
media.
So if you are interested inlistening to more episodes,
obviously subscribe on whateverpodcast platform you're
listening to, but you can alsogo to the link in the
description, in the show notes,and you can click on that first
link and join the email list.
Every single Thursday I send outan email.
Sometimes it's supplemental tothe podcast, things related to
what we talked about that weekon the podcast, and other times

(01:11:07):
it's just good parenting tips.
A couple of weeks ago I sentout one three tips for kids, for
parents with picky eaters.
I've talked about how to helpkids process with trauma.
I've talked about so manydifferent things on that email
list, and so all you got to dojust enter your information
there your first name and youremail and you'll join the email
list and you'll be up to date onnot only the amazing stuff that

(01:11:29):
we have going on at wholeparent, but just regular good
content for you.
Uh, that's all I have for youtoday.
That was the episode.
I feel like I just got to stoptalking because this has already
been so long.
But, guys, thank you so muchfor letting me do this, for
being the people who listen tothis on a regular basis so that
I get to have theseconversations.

(01:11:50):
I cannot tell you how gratefulI am that I am able to even do
this, and it's because of you,it's because of the people who
rate and review, it's because ofthe people who join the email
list.
It's because of you, and sothank you so much, and I'll

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