December 19, 2024 • 39 mins
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It’s the ultimate parenting conundrum: Do you tell your kids the truth about Santa? In this episode, I dive into the psychology, cultural traditions, and ethical questions behind the Santa myth. Why do kids believe so wholeheartedly, and how do we respond when the questions about Santa’s reality start rolling in? Plus, I explore the tricky balance between keeping the magic alive and maintaining honesty and trust with your children.
This episode includes insights from child development experts, My personal parenting reflections, and an adorable interview with my own kids about their own feelings on Santa Claus.
Whether you’re Team Santa or Team No Santa, this episode will help you navigate the holidays with intention and a deeper understanding of how magical traditions impact your kids’ development and emotional well-being.
What We Covered in This Episode:
- The Big Question:
- When your child asks, “Is Santa real?” how do you respond in a way that honors both their wonder and your values?
- The Psychology of Belief:
- Why kids naturally embrace magical thinking until around age seven.
- How the Santa myth fosters imagination, perspective-taking, and moral reasoning.
- The Controversy:
- Should parents perpetuate the Santa myth?
- The downside of using Santa (and Elf on the Shelf) for behavior modification.
- Why the “naughty and nice list” might be doing more harm than good.
- Navigating Tricky Conversations:
- How to approach the Santa topic with sensitive or skeptical kids.
- Why honesty at the right age builds trust and helps children process big truths.
Resources Mentioned:
- Alfie Kohn’s book, Punished by Rewards, for understanding the impact of extrinsic motivation on kids.
- The 1973 episode of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood where Fred Rogers talks about Santa Claus.
- Jon’s upcoming book, Punishment-Free Parenting: The Brain-Based Way to Raise Kids Without Raising Your Voice.
How to support Whole Parent:
- Subscribe, Rate, and Review: Your feedback keeps the podcast going and helps other parents find it!
- Share with Friends: Know someone grappling with the Santa conversation? Share this episode with three friends who have kids between ages 3 and 10.
- Pre-order Jon’s Book: Available in hardcover, eBook, and audiobook formats. Pre-order now to support the release and start 2025 with fresh parenting strategies!
Thank you for tuning in! Wishing you and your family a joyful and meaningful holiday season, whether you’re celebrating with Santa or creating your own traditions. See you next week! 🎄
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon @wholeparent (00:01):
Just a warning this episode is about
Santa Claus and how we talk tokids about Santa.
If you would prefer for yourlittle ones to not hear what
we're talking about today, thismight be a better episode for
you to listen to alone.
It's a crisp December eveningand you're sitting by the fire
with your kids.
The tree is twinkling, thestockings are hanging neatly we
(00:24):
have six this year, it's a lotyour kids are carefully setting
out cookies for Santa becauseit's Christmas Eve.
There's that magic feeling inthe air, the kind of magic that
all makes us feel like kidsagain.
And then, from across the room,you hear the words that you
have been dreading since yourchild was born Is Santa real?
In that moment, time freezes.
(00:46):
You glance at your partner.
You're caught in the silentparental game of chicken.
Who's going to take this one?
For generations, the story ofSanta has been this pillar of a
magical childhood the idea ofthis jolly old elf who travels
the whole world every singleChristmas, fueled by cookies and
goodwill.
But the magic also comes withquestions.
(01:08):
What do we do when our kidsstart wondering, if it's true,
what happens when theirwide-eyed wonder gives away to
skepticism?
How do we strike a balancebetween nurturing an imagination
and a childhood and stayingtrue to values.
Today, on the Whole ParentPodcast, we're diving into the
great Santa controversy.
Is it okay to lie to your kidsabout Santa?
(01:29):
We'll explore the psychology ofwhy kids believe the moment
they start to doubt, and how younavigate those tricky questions
in a way that honors theirwonder without compromising
their trust.
Because at the end of the day,it's not really about Santa.
It's about how we show up forour kids when the questions are
big, when the answers aren'teasy and the stakes feel
impossibly high.
(01:50):
I'm John.
Today we're talking about SantaClaus, why he matters, how we
can talk about him and why hisstory, like parenting itself, is
more about a journey than anydestination.
So this year so far we've beenwatching some Christmas movies,
(02:12):
maybe fewer than years past.
I think we got kind of burnedout on them, but we did watch
the Santa Claus with my oldest.
It's a story about a guy namedScott Calvin.
He's this workaholic toyexecutive.
He's played by Tim Allen and heis doing the bare minimum
parenting for his son, charlie.
He reluctantly takes him onChristmas Eve and everything
just goes terribly.
He burns the turkey.
(02:33):
They have to go out to eat.
He doesn't know how to talk toCharlie when they're sitting
there.
It's awkward.
There's this general vibe oflike when is this going to be
over?
And then something trulyunexpected happens.
Scott accidentally kills SantaClaus in front of his son.
I'm paraphrasing, but that'swhat happens, right?
He yells at Santa when he's onhis roof.
(02:53):
Santa falls off his roof andplunges to his doom.
Now you might think, as alogical adult, that maybe Scott,
this very grown up, very mature, a logical adult, that maybe
Scott, this very grown up, verymature executive, is going to
call 911, maybe check to see ifSanta's okay.
(03:14):
But no, not Scott, calvin.
He is going to put on the suitof the man that he has just
killed, because apparently, whenyou kill Santa, that is what
you were expected to do.
What Scott doesn't realize isthat this small act is going to
have massive implications forhim.
You see, there is a clause, aSanta clause.
Get it C-L-A-U-S-E, and it'swritten in microscopic legal
language that binds him to beingSanta as his job for the rest
(03:38):
of his life, because that's thereal power and magic of a
well-written contract.
Charlie and Scott spend therest of the night delivering
presents, doing Santa's job.
Eventually they wind up at theNorth Pole, where they learn the
extent of this contract,including that Scott is now
officially Santa.
It's a fun movie.
I found myself enjoying it,like I did probably when I was a
little kid, but I really foundmyself doing something that I'd
(03:59):
never done before, which isempathize with the villain of
the movie, the antagonist.
His name is Neil.
He's Charlie's stepdad.
He's a psychiatrist who wearsthese horrible sweaters and
whose primary fault seems to bethe fact that he is deeply
troubled that Charlie's beliefsin Santa go way beyond what's
normal.
Charlie doesn't just believe inSanta, he said that his dad is
(04:21):
the real Santa, and if we takethis outside the context of the
movie, you can see how apsychiatrist would probably be
pretty unnerved by this.
Neil is even more concernedthat Scott, a man who, neil, has
been nothing but nice to so farin the movie, although a little
patronizing, if we'll admit, isfeeding into this delusion.
For context, the magic of thiscontract is transforming Scott
(04:45):
into Santa, but what Neil seesis this adult that's going to
these extreme lengths, puttingon hundreds of pounds, growing
this massive beard, changing hishair color to manipulate this
vulnerable and confused child ofdivorce.
I have to admit I have a reallyhard time hating Neil and, for
that matter, you know Charlie'smom.
(05:06):
I could keep going on about this, but really what they seem to
be struggling with is somethingthat I very much so empathize
with, which is how do we talk toour kids about these sort of
magical things?
What do we tell our kids aboutSanta?
Let's start by acknowledgingthe elephant in the room that
Santa is a really big deal.
For many families, santa isthis figure who represents joy
(05:27):
and magic and the spirit ofgiving, and for others, the idea
of Santa feels just kind ofdishonest Just I can't lie to my
kids that way and I've walkedthat struggle right Like it
feels kind of at odds with yourvalues of trying to instill
honesty and transparency withyour kids.
Perpetuating this myth and thatkind of leads us to the reality
, which is the reason Santa isso controversial is that it's
(05:51):
really hard to take a neutralapproach to Santa.
Kids are going to ask you reallypointed questions and at
different times it can be reallyhard to know what to say.
How does Santa get to everyhouse in one night?
Why does Santa have differenthandwriting or use different
wrapping paper at one friend'shouse or another?
Why did my friend get thislarger, bigger thing than my
(06:12):
other friend, who has less money?
Doesn't Santa, you know, haveunlimited resources to be able
to give every kid what they areasking for?
And eventually it leads to thiskind of fundamental question,
that one that I talked about inthat setting of the scene on
Christmas Eve, and that's thebig one, you know is Santa real?
So how do we answer thesequestions without crushing the
(06:33):
magic or compromising our kid'schildhood or anything like that,
or our integrity as parents?
First, I think it's reallyimportant that we answer the
question, or at least ask thequestion, why kids are so drawn
to Santa.
Why are parents so drawn toSanta?
Why do kids find it so easy tobelieve this?
(06:54):
And if you're going to askchildhood development
specialists, they're going tohighlight that before about the
age of seven, kids live in whatwe might think of as this kind
of magical way of seeing theworld.
Just take, for example.
You know, when we think aboutmagic and ask these fundamental
questions, we are doing so froma place where we understand how
(07:17):
things work, and so whensomething like Santa Claus,
which clearly doesn't work,comes up, it competes with our
views of other things that dowork, whereas for our kids they
live in a world that they don'treally fundamentally understand
before the age of seven.
They don't know how an elevatoryou know doors open and how
it's hydraulically or whateverpulley system to move it up and
(07:39):
down.
I don't even know really howelevators work, I just know that
they kind of do.
They don't really understandhow cars work, they just kind of
you know you press a pedal andthen they move.
They don't understand internalcombustion engines or electric
engines or whatever.
And so because of this they arejust kind of wired to be open
to magic and wonder andimagination.
(08:01):
So they're not just believingin Santa because we tell them to
.
They're believing because italigns with the way that they're
really processing everything inthe world.
Santa's story for them just kindof feels normal.
It feeds into their sense ofwonder that they're experiencing
all over the place and it givesthem some frameworks for some
positive considerations,concepts like generosity and
(08:23):
kindness and even delayedgratification, and that's that's
the positive side of santa, ifwe're being honest.
Waiting for christmas morningteaches patience.
It teaches tolerance ofemotions.
Writing letters to santa isthis reflective process?
It allows us to Santa.
Is this reflective process.
It allows us to evenparticipate in some gratitude.
(08:46):
You're leaving out cookies.
That's a lesson in hospitalityand generosity and doing
something for others, and soSanta's not all bad.
In fact, during this 2016interview that I was able to
find with the Wall StreetJournal, developmental
psychologist and bestsellingparenting author also podcast
host of my favorite parentingpodcast, raising Good Humans
(09:07):
Elisa Pressman who, by the way,herself is Jewish, so she has no
vested interest in this Santaquestion said to the Wall Street
Journal that it's not onlyacceptable for us to perpetuate
the myth of Santa in kids underthe age of seven.
It actually can be beneficialto helping them develop this
rich imaginary life.
She goes on to talk about howkids are learning all the time
(09:28):
through imagination.
This is how they're doingperspective taking and
developing moral reasoning.
It's something I talk aboutextensively in my book that we
utilize and leverage theirimagination to teach them the
life skills, and that traditionshave been doing this forever
not just the Santa Claustradition, but traditions going
back to indigenous communitiesfor thousands of years.
So participating in the Santamyth with your four-year-old is
(09:52):
probably not as harmful as someof the people who are on the
extreme.
I will never lie to my kid sideare maybe forwarding that it is
, but it also can depend on thekid, and that's an important
consideration.
And really, what this allbrings us to is the central
question that we have to askourselves when we're considering
this whole Santa thing, whichis really the central question
(10:13):
that we have to ask ourselveswhenever we're talking to our
kids, and it's why are we doingwhat we're doing?
What are we getting out of it?
Is it for our kids?
Is it only for our kids?
Is it for both us and our kids?
Who is this Santa myth actually?
For it's complicated, I think.
(10:39):
One thing that kind of gets tothis is this interesting
phenomenon where kids pretendand I don't know the statistics
on this, but I have heard thisin multiple different interviews
with parents.
I watched so many interviews,read so many interviews about
Santa from developmental childexperts, and one of the things
that often they will point toagain I don't know the
(11:01):
percentage of kids who do thisis that at some point kids will
actually learn that Santa's notreal from school or from a
friend, or maybe they will just,you know, kind of logic it out
for themselves and they'll stopbelieving, or maybe they, you
know, saw it on a show orsomething.
And they will actually lie andpretend to believe that Santa's
(11:23):
real for the benefit of theirparents.
And when they're asked aboutthis, you know it's not just
like they're saying oh yeah,well, I like the presents, I'm
going to keep pretending so thatI can keep getting the presents
.
These kids will actually comeright out and say no, you know,
my mom or my dad really lovesthis Santa thing.
They love that I believe in itand so like I just kind of do it
for them.
And so I think we often tellourselves that Santa is only for
(11:47):
our kids, it's to keep theirchildhood magical.
I think the truth is often morecomplicated and I think our
kids even sometimes will knowthat.
And then there's the other kindof issues with Santa that we
often don't really consider,that are really not for the
benefit of our kids.
I think about specificallySanta's omnipotence, and now he
(12:10):
has spies to assist in thatomnipotence.
We call them the elves on theshelf right, and these are tools
of behavior modification forparents and have been for
decades.
The holidays, the winter break,like these, are dysregulating
times for kids.
We have holiday parties andfamily gatherings.
(12:31):
Parents, can you know, that canbring up some childhood stuff
for us.
We don't often parent our bestin front of our families.
Obviously there's someuncomfortable clothing, itchy
sweaters all of that, at leastfor my childhood and just
generally way too much sugar.
We're missing bedtime, we'reout after dark, and this just
means that kids are out ofroutine during this time of year
(12:51):
, and so it's nice for manyparents to have a way of sort of
mitigating those tantrums andthose meltdowns.
And that's, I think, the kindof uncomfortable part of Santa
that we do need to touch onbefore we keep going with just
the do we believe, do we notbelieve?
And that's the part of theSanta myth where Santa becomes
(13:13):
the bribe or the threat thatkeeps kids doing what we want
them to do rather than, you know, doing the things we don't want
them to do misbehaving, havingtantrums, melt-ons, whatever
when they're in less than idealscenarios.
I have a story about this.
It actually just happened to meyesterday I'm recording this in
December of 2024.
(13:34):
And we went to the library butnot our local library because
it's currently underconstruction.
We went to the one in the town,the next town over, and I go
there often with my middle kids.
So I have a four-year-old, Ihave an almost three-year-old,
and then I have aneight-year-old and a
two-month-old.
And the four-year-old and thethree-year-old are the ones who
(13:54):
are with me in the morning whiletheir brother is at forest
school and we go to this locallibrary and we're playing in
their play area and they bothreach for the same piece at the
same time.
They're playing with thelibrary Legos and they both
reach for the same piece at thesame time.
They're playing with thelibrary Legos and they both
reach for the same piece.
And then they both proceeded tokind of let each other know
that they wanted it.
(14:14):
Now nobody laid hands on eachother, but they both expressed
their displeasure, let's say toone another and this is totally
normal, right, sharing isdifficult, especially with
siblings, and a librarian walkedover and said to them she
intervened, which was a littlestrange because I was sitting
right there.
Usually you don't see adults dothis but she felt empowered to
(14:36):
come over and say you know, weneed to share and we need to be
nice to each other at thelibrary, especially this time of
year.
And this, in my view, is justlike the highlight of and I
don't mean to you know thislibrarian had the best of
intentions and she's justoperating from her worldview too
, like I'm not knocking her atall, but this is the gross
underbelly of the Santa myth,right, the way that we use kids'
(15:00):
sense of magic and wonder togain compliance and to try and
incentivize good behavior.
You're being watched, you know.
He knows when you're sleeping,he knows when you're awake.
You better be good, and I wouldargue that if we are going to
choose to participate in thisSanta myth with our kids, at the
very least that part of it,what I call the naughty and nice
(15:21):
list, part of it, we shoulddeconstruct and get rid of Now.
I don't think you have to getrid of the entire myth, then I'm
saying that the part of themyth that is used primarily as
behavior modification isproblematic, no matter how old
your kids are and how you'reutilizing that.
And the reason I say this isbecause home really needs to be
(15:43):
a safe place for kids to expresstheir big feelings when they
have bad days, and it cannot bea place where there are elves
narking on them because they gottoo hungry or because they had
trouble sharing or because theyhad a bad day at school and they
just let off some steam andthat kind of goes.
And even if you don't do theelves, you know the narking
elves.
You also need to yourself be asafe person.
(16:06):
The number of times I've beenin the grocery store or we've
been walking by the toy aisleand you hear a parent say
something like well, I'm goingto tell Santa that you are X, y,
z right now.
We need to be safe too and ourkids need to know that we can be
people who they can bring theirproblems to.
The world is not a place whereour mess, our kids' mess, is
(16:27):
always going to be welcome andso that it needs to be welcome
in our home.
Like that's the basis of secureattachment.
As Eli Harwood attachmentexpert says, you have to give
kids a safe home base, like whenyou're playing tag and there's
like a home base where a kid cango and be safe from being
tagged.
Like that has to be home andyou can't have that place be a
(16:49):
place where they're constantlybeing watched and assessed and
monitored, and immediately bythe way, this was my son's, my
oldest aversion to Santa and Elfon a Shelf, like immediately.
He was like what do you mean?
This thing is watching me.
I am not okay with that, andeven if it's not the removal by
the way of presence like oh, ifyou aren't good, you're not
(17:12):
going to get any presents, evenif it's the reward side, the
other side of this coin, westill have the question should
we be using rewards, likepresents from Santa on Christmas
, to incentivize good behavior?
I actually have a snippet herethat I'm going to play from an
interview that I did for anupcoming episode of the podcast
It'll be later on in this seasonfrom Alfie Kohn, who wrote a
(17:35):
book called Punished by Rewards,but anyway, this is his take on
rewards with kids.
Alfie Kohn (17:42):
Studies have continued to show that children
who are frequently rewarded orpraised by their parents tend to
be less generous and caringthan other kids.
You might buy the behavior ofgetting them to do something,
(18:03):
but now the point is to see thatactivity as a means to an end.
Jon @wholeparent (18:13):
I want to stop here for a moment and ask
you, if you're enjoying thisepisode of the whole parent
podcast, to subscribe, whereveryou're listening, to rate this
episode and review the podcast.
I read every single reviewmyself.
They are what keep me going,and I want you to go and do one
extra thing for me here, andthat's to share it with at least
three friends in your life.
You can share it on socialmedia.
(18:34):
I think that that's great, butI want you to actually send this
episode to three people in yourlife who have kids between the
ages of three and 10 and say,hey, check this out, especially
your friends, maybe, who havealready talked about this.
Are we doing Santa?
Are you not doing Santa?
And send it to them.
You have no idea how much ithelps not only me to grow the
(18:55):
podcast, to get more listenersto keep us going doing this
thing, but also how it how ithelps people.
You don't know what, what,what's helping, and you can just
point to this episode, thispart in the episode, after you
share it with them and if theysay, you know, wait, do you
think I'm a bad parent?
Why are you sharing this withme?
You just say no, no, no, hejust told me I had to share it
(19:20):
and so I'm just doing what I'msupposed to do.
It, you know.
And if you don't do it, I wantyou to know.
Santa Claus is watching you andyou're going to get coal in
your stocking for Christmas ifyou don't share this with three
people.
Also, if you're looking tostart the new year off parenting
, better consider pre orderingmy book punishment free
parenting the brain based way toraise kids without raising your
voice.
It's available at the link inthe description, as well as
wherever books are sold, andit's also available on audiobook
.
So if you like this episode,where I'm kind of doing episodes
(19:41):
a little differently if youdidn't know that this season I'm
doing them more similarly tothe way that I wrote the book
and the audiobook.
So chances are, if you likethis episode, you're going to
love the book.
Okay, speaking of the episode,let's get back to it.
How do you handle thatinevitable moment when your kid
looks you in the eye and asksyou for real?
You know, is Santa real?
(20:03):
I'm going to give you threeapproaches that I think you can
take, depending on your child'sage and personality.
The first one is kind of theclassic way of talking to kids
about Santa, and that's to frameSanta as a symbol.
This works better for olderkids, you know, seven or older,
and this is where you saysomething to the extent of like
Santa is real in the sense thathe represents the spirit of
(20:26):
Christmas, or giving or kindness, and grownups get to take on
that role to keep that magicalive for kids.
Now you're old enough, you getto be part of that tradition too
.
You get to be Santa, and thisapproach does something that's
really cool.
It empowers kids to graduateinto the role of Santa, which
we're going to talk about herein a moment is a really helpful
balancing point for thatdisappointment that Santa is not
(20:49):
real and, especially with oldersiblings, it can help them feel
more empowered, like they'recontributing to these acts of
kindness, helping the youngersiblings.
The second way to answer this isto answer the question with a
question.
This is what I would use withyounger kids.
So if your child's asking youabout Santa but you think you
know they really want you tojust validate that you know
(21:11):
Santa is real, you just respondby saying, well, what do you
think?
And this gives them a windowinto their own thought processes
and allows you to kind of gaugehow much information they're
ready for.
This can often just lead themto tell you everything that they
think about Santa Claus, whichmight be the reason that they
were asking you in the firstplace is just to kind of bounce
(21:31):
it off of you and at the end youcan validate that.
You don't have to then say,like you, oh well, that's not
true.
Like you, you can just kind ofsay, oh, that's, that's really
cool.
Thank you for telling me that.
The last way is what I use formore logical kids, and this is
just to give them it's what Icall the it's pretend answer and
(21:53):
it goes something like this yousay santa is not a person who
lives at the North Pole.
This is for the kids who areasking all of the technical
questions you know about timetravel.
If you're getting into quantummechanics to explain Santa Claus
, like at this point, we'reprobably past the point where we
should have had the it'spretend conversation.
So you say you know, santa isnot a person who lives at the
(22:15):
North Pole, but the story ofSanta is something that families
, as grown-ups, like to pretend,and it's fun to pretend
sometimes, and so you canpretend along with us.
And this last approach, theit's pretend approach, is the
one that Fred Rogers used in hisvery infamous 1973 episode of
(22:37):
Mr Rogers' Neighborhood calledIs Santa Claus Real.
It's hard to imagine now thatthat show was ever considered
controversial, but there areactually a handful of episodes
of Mr Rogers' Neighborhood thatwere incredibly controversial,
some of them so much so that youcan't even watch them.
I can't find them anywhere.
There's a whole week in the1980s where he talks about
(22:59):
nuclear weapons and disarmament.
I mean, like Fred really waspretty radical in many respects.
But in this you know 1973 isSanta Claus real episode he
effectively tells kids at theend no, santa is just pretend.
And it's remembered for thatmoment when he admits that at
(23:21):
the end and then he sings thissong about pretending.
But it also features what Ithink is one of the best
children's most poignantconversations about Santa in the
make believe world.
So in make believe world, ifyou're familiar with the show,
this is where Daniel Tiger.
So in Make-Believe World, ifyou're familiar with the show,
this is where Daniel Tiger lives.
This is where the puppets liveand Daniel Tiger in this case is
(23:41):
concerned.
Mr. Rogers Neighborhood C (23:42):
Santa Claus is coming to the
neighborhood of Make-BelieveSanta Claus.
What's he going to do to us?
Oh well, I imagine it will besomething good.
Oh, I try to be good, but I'mnot always good.
I think I'm afraid of SantaClaus.
Jon @wholeparent (24:05):
I wish he weren't coming here.
Daniel basically says like hedoesn't want Santa to come
because Santa is watching himwhile he's sleeping and Daniel
knows he hasn't always been goodTo which Santa, who is being
played by one of the kind ofregulars on the show something
that Mr Rogers is going to pointout later when they talk about
the land of make-believe that itwas just a person in a costume
Santa says you know, I'm noteven always good.
Mr. Rogers Neighborhood Clip (24:28):
I am Daniel Striped Tiger and I'm
not always good.
Well, I'm Santa Claus, and I'mnot always good either.
Jon @wholeparent (24:37):
And Santa has this line.
I can just imagine Fred writingit.
Mr. Rogers Neighborhood Cli (24:41):
You aren't, of course not.
Good people aren't always good,they just try to be.
Jon @wholeparent (24:47):
By the end of the episode.
I think it's kind ofinescapable that Fred has kind
of put on a master class in howyou can effectively and
ethically talk to kids aboutSanta.
But I'm telling you, parents in1973, according to people who
have researched Fred and hislife they were not happy.
They did not feel this way.
(25:08):
They felt like the man thatthey had trusted to teach their
kids about emotions had justhurt them.
So I think it's important topoint out that the reason they
felt that way, I think isbecause one of the biggest
reasons that parents will keepup the Santa charade is because
we're afraid of how kids aregoing to respond to the truth
and react.
So the next kind of point herethat I want to make is to ask
(25:30):
the question is that fear thatour kids are going to be
absolutely devastated bylearning that Santa is not real
grounded in reality for us?
And according to Dr EileenKennedy Moore, who's this PhD
host of this Kids Ask DoctorFriendtastic podcast, which I
had never heard of untilresearching for this episode,
(25:51):
she says you know, yes, there'sdisappointment, but actually
it's okay.
She's phenomenal in thissegment that I watched.
She says, yeah, you know what,there is going to be
disappointment, but it'sactually okay, because if
they're at this age wherethey're really looking for
answers, then they actually needthe honesty and that if they're
at the right age to learn thiswhich, by the way, the right age
(26:13):
is not old enough, it's not tooold.
If they're young enough tolearn this, they'll recover
quickly.
The disappointment is actuallyalso going to be balanced out,
according to her and this iskind of what we were talking
about in that first response bythe sense of growth and pride,
of being trusted with this adultconcept that Santa's not real.
But what is very clear is thatthat happens if you are able to
(26:38):
express that Santa is not realyoung enough.
On the other hand, kids who aregoing to you know by some
miracle make it to middle schooland still believe in Santa,
they have a much harder roadcoming ahead of them.
They face a much biggerbetrayal and there are social
implications.
At some point it stops beingnaive and imaginative to believe
(27:02):
in this immortal elf who useshis flying reindeer to break
into millions of houses aroundthe world to deliver gifts and,
you know, satiate his seeminglybottomless appetite for cookies
and milk.
At some point it just getsweird, like, if you have a 12 or
13 year old who believes this,their friends are not going to
see that as like an endearingquirk.
(27:24):
They are going to experiencesome social blowback as a result
of expressing that belief topeople in their life.
And finding out about Santa toolate, doesn't?
You're not going to get thebenefit of that pride or the
sense of maturity.
It becomes a point of shame.
So that leads us to kind of thefinal point in this episode,
which is when is the right timeto spill the beans and in the
(27:45):
view of some parents some of mylisteners I'm sure murder your
child's sense of innocence andChristmas magic.
I think every parent has toanswer this for themselves.
It can't be too late, as we'vejust highlighted, but it doesn't
you don't have to do it whenthey're four either.
I think it depends on the kids.
For some kids, santa is justnever going to work and I think
(28:07):
parents who press it when itdoesn't work actually wind up
going to more harm.
This is kind of what happenedto Daniel Tiger.
The thought of a person cominginto your house in the middle of
the night, regardless of whatthey're bringing you, can be
unnerving, especially for highlysensitive kids.
For other kids it's that kindof underbelly of the tradition.
He knows when you're sleeping,he knows when you're awake, he
(28:28):
knows if you've been bad or good, so be good, for goodness sake.
That is going to bother a lotof kids and if you are unable to
divorce that from the mythitself, you may have to kind of
end the myth earlier than youmight like, because that's a
really difficult piece and a lotof kids have trouble with that.
That was the piece for my son.
Once he had heard that he waslike no way, no, no way, jose.
(28:52):
For some kids the tradition isfun and whimsical and later,
once their brain develops, thefacts catch up with St Nick and
you know it's a pretty natural.
Oh yeah, that was just a forfun thing.
And yes, for some you're goingto have to have a hard
conversation that they may notwant to have, but for them it is
(29:13):
the kinder option than allowingthem to kind of keep
perpetuating in this way.
And one last note on the whenhere it's not always a clear
line for our kids or for us.
Kids often reflect later thatthey knew, but they chose to
keep up the charade.
But that might not even havebeen a conscious choice.
For them, the magic was justkind of worth perpetuating.
(29:35):
So with that in mind, I want toend this episode a little bit
differently.
In our house we have three boyswho have very different views
on Santa.
I interviewed two of them andI'm going to play that for you
now.
Okay, you can start by sayingyour name and yeah, just for
people who are listening to sayyour name and say how old you
(29:58):
are.
Matt and Ollie (30:00):
My name is Matt and I am eight.
Jon @wholeparent (30:02):
Okay, matt, I have called you here with a
really important set ofquestions.
My first one I've already kindof told you what we're going to
talk about, but my first one iswhat do you think about Santa
Claus?
Matt and Ollie (30:17):
I think that I don't think he's real because I
don't like the idea of someonejust sneaking to our house every
year.
What do the kids at your schoolthink about Santa?
Jon @wholeparent (30:33):
Most of them, yes, about like 2% of them
think that Santa isn't real, soyou're in the minority.
There's not very many peoplewho think what you think.
Yes.
What do you think about yourbrothers?
Do you think that your brothersbelieve in Santa or do you
think that they don't believe in?
Matt and Ollie (30:50):
Santa, I've never asked them.
Jon @wholeparent (30:51):
If you had to guess.
Matt and Ollie (30:53):
Probably Liam believes in and Ollie's like not
so sure.
Jon @wholeparent (30:59):
Can you say your name and how old you are?
Matt and Ollie (31:05):
Um what's the name?
Um my actual name or mynickname?
Jon @wholeparent (31:11):
Whichever one you want.
Matt and Ollie (31:14):
Okay, oliver, and four years old.
Jon @wholeparent (31:18):
You're Oliver and you are four years old.
Matt and Ollie (31:20):
Actually I'm four and a half years.
Jon @wholeparent (31:23):
Oliver, who's four and a half years old, can
you tell me about Santa Claus?
Tell me what you know aboutSanta Claus?
Matt and Ollie (31:30):
Him give presents to somebody.
Jon @wholeparent (31:32):
He gives presents to people.
When does he come?
Matt and Ollie (31:37):
At nighttime.
Jon @wholeparent (31:39):
He comes at nighttime.
What do you think about SantaClaus coming into our house
while we're all sleeping?
Matt and Ollie (31:44):
How he get into the house.
He goes in the chimney.
Jon @wholeparent (31:50):
Do you think that's okay that he comes in our
house while we're sleeping Toleave us presents?
Matt and Ollie (31:55):
What.
Jon @wholeparent (31:56):
Yeah, that doesn't make you nervous or
anything.
Matt and Ollie (31:59):
Well, that's because his head not goes
upstairs.
Jon @wholeparent (32:02):
Oh, because he doesn't go upstairs where we
sleep, so it's okay.
Matt and Ollie (32:06):
Well, because our tree's not upstairs it,
because he doesn't go upstairswhere we sleep, so it's okay.
Well, because our tree's notupstairs, it's downstairs.
Jon @wholeparent (32:11):
He just comes out and he goes to our tree.
Matt and Ollie (32:14):
Right, and then he puts the presents under the
tree.
Jon @wholeparent (32:18):
Nice.
So do you think that it's okaythat grown-ups do Santa with
kids, or do you think, do youwish that grown-ups didn't do
Santa?
Matt and Ollie (32:25):
I wish that grown-ups didn't do Santa.
I wish that grown-ups didn't do.
Jon @wholeparent (32:28):
Santa Really why?
Matt and Ollie (32:29):
Because it's like, if you're good, you get
presents, if you're bad, youeither get coal or nothing.
Jon @wholeparent (32:36):
What if that part of Santa was gone?
So what if we took away thegood and the bad part?
What do you think about Santathen?
Matt and Ollie (32:49):
A little bit better, but still not the idea
of someone sneaking into yourhouse.
He can give everyone presentsin the whole time war, or
because everyone in the worldand the house is all over the
world does he care if kids havebeen good or bad?
Jon @wholeparent (33:03):
Um, or do you think that he just gives
presents to everyone?
Matt and Ollie (33:08):
Him, him this, those that one is good.
Jon @wholeparent (33:13):
He just gives presents to the good people.
Matt and Ollie (33:16):
Well, I'm a good person so I say silly things
like the poopy stuff.
Jon @wholeparent (33:22):
I say yeah, you are a good person.
If we decide to do Santa thisyear with Ollie, are you going
to help us do it or are yougoing to tell him that Santa's
not real?
What do you think?
Matt and Ollie (33:35):
I'll help him.
Jon @wholeparent (33:36):
Do you think that Matt believes in Santa
Claus?
Matt and Ollie (33:38):
What does he believe in?
Santa Claus?
I like playing along.
I play along with my friendsnext door all the time, like if
they see like Mom would pull inand it was like really dark,
they would think, oh no, there'sa monster sneaking into your
house.
I'll just be like oh no, eventhough I know it's my mom.
Jon @wholeparent (34:00):
Do you think that it's okay if other kids
believe in Santa, or do youthink that that's?
Matt and Ollie (34:04):
Anyone can believe what anyone wants to
believe thank you for being onthe podcast, matt you're welcome
thanks again for listening tothis episode of the whole parent
podcast.
Jon @wholeparent (34:15):
If you enjoyed it, please go wherever
you are listening to it and rateand review.
Make sure that you aresubscribed so that you get
updates.
If you'd like to learn moreabout whole parent, get a copy
of the book.
You can go down to thedescription below.
There should be links there toall of the things, but
especially the audiobook, for myupcoming book, punishment-free
(34:35):
Parenting the Brain-Based Way toRaise Kids Without Raising your
Voice.
Make sure that you get yourcopy pre-ordered.
It helps me incredibly whenpeople order before the release
date.
I cannot state that enough.
Best of luck to you and yourfamily this holiday season,
whether you're celebrating SantaClaus or not.
And just remember, in the endyou are the expert on your kids.
(34:55):
You can adapt your parenting tofit their needs and I think
that you are doing an amazingjob.
Till next time.
This has been the Whole ParentPodcast.
Just a warning this episode is about
Santa Claus and how we talk tokids about Santa.
If you would prefer for yourlittle ones to not hear what
we're talking about today, thismight be a better episode for
you to listen to alone.
It's a crisp December eveningand you're sitting by the fire
with your kids.
The tree is twinkling, thestockings are hanging neatly we
(00:24):
have six this year, it's a lotyour kids are carefully setting
out cookies for Santa becauseit's Christmas Eve.
There's that magic feeling inthe air, the kind of magic that
all makes us feel like kidsagain.
And then, from across the room,you hear the words that you
have been dreading since yourchild was born Is Santa real?
In that moment, time freezes.
(00:46):
You glance at your partner.
You're caught in the silentparental game of chicken.
Who's going to take this one?
For generations, the story ofSanta has been this pillar of a
magical childhood the idea ofthis jolly old elf who travels
the whole world every singleChristmas, fueled by cookies and
goodwill.
But the magic also comes withquestions.
(01:08):
What do we do when our kidsstart wondering, if it's true,
what happens when theirwide-eyed wonder gives away to
skepticism?
How do we strike a balancebetween nurturing an imagination
and a childhood and stayingtrue to values.
Today, on the Whole ParentPodcast, we're diving into the
great Santa controversy.
Is it okay to lie to your kidsabout Santa?
(01:29):
We'll explore the psychology ofwhy kids believe the moment
they start to doubt, and how younavigate those tricky questions
in a way that honors theirwonder without compromising
their trust.
Because at the end of the day,it's not really about Santa.
It's about how we show up forour kids when the questions are
big, when the answers aren'teasy and the stakes feel
impossibly high.
(01:50):
I'm John.
Today we're talking about SantaClaus, why he matters, how we
can talk about him and why hisstory, like parenting itself, is
more about a journey than anydestination.
So this year so far we've beenwatching some Christmas movies,
(02:12):
maybe fewer than years past.
I think we got kind of burnedout on them, but we did watch
the Santa Claus with my oldest.
It's a story about a guy namedScott Calvin.
He's this workaholic toyexecutive.
He's played by Tim Allen and heis doing the bare minimum
parenting for his son, charlie.
He reluctantly takes him onChristmas Eve and everything
just goes terribly.
He burns the turkey.
(02:33):
They have to go out to eat.
He doesn't know how to talk toCharlie when they're sitting
there.
It's awkward.
There's this general vibe oflike when is this going to be
over?
And then something trulyunexpected happens.
Scott accidentally kills SantaClaus in front of his son.
I'm paraphrasing, but that'swhat happens, right?
He yells at Santa when he's onhis roof.
(02:53):
Santa falls off his roof andplunges to his doom.
Now you might think, as alogical adult, that maybe Scott,
this very grown up, very mature, a logical adult, that maybe
Scott, this very grown up, verymature executive, is going to
call 911, maybe check to see ifSanta's okay.
(03:14):
But no, not Scott, calvin.
He is going to put on the suitof the man that he has just
killed, because apparently, whenyou kill Santa, that is what
you were expected to do.
What Scott doesn't realize isthat this small act is going to
have massive implications forhim.
You see, there is a clause, aSanta clause.
Get it C-L-A-U-S-E, and it'swritten in microscopic legal
language that binds him to beingSanta as his job for the rest
(03:38):
of his life, because that's thereal power and magic of a
well-written contract.
Charlie and Scott spend therest of the night delivering
presents, doing Santa's job.
Eventually they wind up at theNorth Pole, where they learn the
extent of this contract,including that Scott is now
officially Santa.
It's a fun movie.
I found myself enjoying it,like I did probably when I was a
little kid, but I really foundmyself doing something that I'd
(03:59):
never done before, which isempathize with the villain of
the movie, the antagonist.
His name is Neil.
He's Charlie's stepdad.
He's a psychiatrist who wearsthese horrible sweaters and
whose primary fault seems to bethe fact that he is deeply
troubled that Charlie's beliefsin Santa go way beyond what's
normal.
Charlie doesn't just believe inSanta, he said that his dad is
(04:21):
the real Santa, and if we takethis outside the context of the
movie, you can see how apsychiatrist would probably be
pretty unnerved by this.
Neil is even more concernedthat Scott, a man who, neil, has
been nothing but nice to so farin the movie, although a little
patronizing, if we'll admit, isfeeding into this delusion.
For context, the magic of thiscontract is transforming Scott
(04:45):
into Santa, but what Neil seesis this adult that's going to
these extreme lengths, puttingon hundreds of pounds, growing
this massive beard, changing hishair color to manipulate this
vulnerable and confused child ofdivorce.
I have to admit I have a reallyhard time hating Neil and, for
that matter, you know Charlie'smom.
(05:06):
I could keep going on about this, but really what they seem to
be struggling with is somethingthat I very much so empathize
with, which is how do we talk toour kids about these sort of
magical things?
What do we tell our kids aboutSanta?
Let's start by acknowledgingthe elephant in the room that
Santa is a really big deal.
For many families, santa isthis figure who represents joy
(05:27):
and magic and the spirit ofgiving, and for others, the idea
of Santa feels just kind ofdishonest Just I can't lie to my
kids that way and I've walkedthat struggle right Like it
feels kind of at odds with yourvalues of trying to instill
honesty and transparency withyour kids.
Perpetuating this myth and thatkind of leads us to the reality
, which is the reason Santa isso controversial is that it's
(05:51):
really hard to take a neutralapproach to Santa.
Kids are going to ask you reallypointed questions and at
different times it can be reallyhard to know what to say.
How does Santa get to everyhouse in one night?
Why does Santa have differenthandwriting or use different
wrapping paper at one friend'shouse or another?
Why did my friend get thislarger, bigger thing than my
(06:12):
other friend, who has less money?
Doesn't Santa, you know, haveunlimited resources to be able
to give every kid what they areasking for?
And eventually it leads to thiskind of fundamental question,
that one that I talked about inthat setting of the scene on
Christmas Eve, and that's thebig one, you know is Santa real?
So how do we answer thesequestions without crushing the
(06:33):
magic or compromising our kid'schildhood or anything like that,
or our integrity as parents?
First, I think it's reallyimportant that we answer the
question, or at least ask thequestion, why kids are so drawn
to Santa.
Why are parents so drawn toSanta?
Why do kids find it so easy tobelieve this?
(06:54):
And if you're going to askchildhood development
specialists, they're going tohighlight that before about the
age of seven, kids live in whatwe might think of as this kind
of magical way of seeing theworld.
Just take, for example.
You know, when we think aboutmagic and ask these fundamental
questions, we are doing so froma place where we understand how
(07:17):
things work, and so whensomething like Santa Claus,
which clearly doesn't work,comes up, it competes with our
views of other things that dowork, whereas for our kids they
live in a world that they don'treally fundamentally understand
before the age of seven.
They don't know how an elevatoryou know doors open and how
it's hydraulically or whateverpulley system to move it up and
(07:39):
down.
I don't even know really howelevators work, I just know that
they kind of do.
They don't really understandhow cars work, they just kind of
you know you press a pedal andthen they move.
They don't understand internalcombustion engines or electric
engines or whatever.
And so because of this they arejust kind of wired to be open
to magic and wonder andimagination.
(08:01):
So they're not just believingin Santa because we tell them to
.
They're believing because italigns with the way that they're
really processing everything inthe world.
Santa's story for them just kindof feels normal.
It feeds into their sense ofwonder that they're experiencing
all over the place and it givesthem some frameworks for some
positive considerations,concepts like generosity and
(08:23):
kindness and even delayedgratification, and that's that's
the positive side of santa, ifwe're being honest.
Waiting for christmas morningteaches patience.
It teaches tolerance ofemotions.
Writing letters to santa isthis reflective process?
It allows us to Santa.
Is this reflective process.
It allows us to evenparticipate in some gratitude.
(08:46):
You're leaving out cookies.
That's a lesson in hospitalityand generosity and doing
something for others, and soSanta's not all bad.
In fact, during this 2016interview that I was able to
find with the Wall StreetJournal, developmental
psychologist and bestsellingparenting author also podcast
host of my favorite parentingpodcast, raising Good Humans
(09:07):
Elisa Pressman who, by the way,herself is Jewish, so she has no
vested interest in this Santaquestion said to the Wall Street
Journal that it's not onlyacceptable for us to perpetuate
the myth of Santa in kids underthe age of seven.
It actually can be beneficialto helping them develop this
rich imaginary life.
She goes on to talk about howkids are learning all the time
(09:28):
through imagination.
This is how they're doingperspective taking and
developing moral reasoning.
It's something I talk aboutextensively in my book that we
utilize and leverage theirimagination to teach them the
life skills, and that traditionshave been doing this forever
not just the Santa Claustradition, but traditions going
back to indigenous communitiesfor thousands of years.
So participating in the Santamyth with your four-year-old is
(09:52):
probably not as harmful as someof the people who are on the
extreme.
I will never lie to my kid sideare maybe forwarding that it is
, but it also can depend on thekid, and that's an important
consideration.
And really, what this allbrings us to is the central
question that we have to askourselves when we're considering
this whole Santa thing, whichis really the central question
(10:13):
that we have to ask ourselveswhenever we're talking to our
kids, and it's why are we doingwhat we're doing?
What are we getting out of it?
Is it for our kids?
Is it only for our kids?
Is it for both us and our kids?
Who is this Santa myth actually?
For it's complicated, I think.
(10:39):
One thing that kind of gets tothis is this interesting
phenomenon where kids pretendand I don't know the statistics
on this, but I have heard thisin multiple different interviews
with parents.
I watched so many interviews,read so many interviews about
Santa from developmental childexperts, and one of the things
that often they will point toagain I don't know the
(11:01):
percentage of kids who do thisis that at some point kids will
actually learn that Santa's notreal from school or from a
friend, or maybe they will just,you know, kind of logic it out
for themselves and they'll stopbelieving, or maybe they, you
know, saw it on a show orsomething.
And they will actually lie andpretend to believe that Santa's
(11:23):
real for the benefit of theirparents.
And when they're asked aboutthis, you know it's not just
like they're saying oh yeah,well, I like the presents, I'm
going to keep pretending so thatI can keep getting the presents
.
These kids will actually comeright out and say no, you know,
my mom or my dad really lovesthis Santa thing.
They love that I believe in itand so like I just kind of do it
for them.
And so I think we often tellourselves that Santa is only for
(11:47):
our kids, it's to keep theirchildhood magical.
I think the truth is often morecomplicated and I think our
kids even sometimes will knowthat.
And then there's the other kindof issues with Santa that we
often don't really consider,that are really not for the
benefit of our kids.
I think about specificallySanta's omnipotence, and now he
(12:10):
has spies to assist in thatomnipotence.
We call them the elves on theshelf right, and these are tools
of behavior modification forparents and have been for
decades.
The holidays, the winter break,like these, are dysregulating
times for kids.
We have holiday parties andfamily gatherings.
(12:31):
Parents, can you know, that canbring up some childhood stuff
for us.
We don't often parent our bestin front of our families.
Obviously there's someuncomfortable clothing, itchy
sweaters all of that, at leastfor my childhood and just
generally way too much sugar.
We're missing bedtime, we'reout after dark, and this just
means that kids are out ofroutine during this time of year
(12:51):
, and so it's nice for manyparents to have a way of sort of
mitigating those tantrums andthose meltdowns.
And that's, I think, the kindof uncomfortable part of Santa
that we do need to touch onbefore we keep going with just
the do we believe, do we notbelieve?
And that's the part of theSanta myth where Santa becomes
(13:13):
the bribe or the threat thatkeeps kids doing what we want
them to do rather than, you know, doing the things we don't want
them to do misbehaving, havingtantrums, melt-ons, whatever
when they're in less than idealscenarios.
I have a story about this.
It actually just happened to meyesterday I'm recording this in
December of 2024.
(13:34):
And we went to the library butnot our local library because
it's currently underconstruction.
We went to the one in the town,the next town over, and I go
there often with my middle kids.
So I have a four-year-old, Ihave an almost three-year-old,
and then I have aneight-year-old and a
two-month-old.
And the four-year-old and thethree-year-old are the ones who
(13:54):
are with me in the morning whiletheir brother is at forest
school and we go to this locallibrary and we're playing in
their play area and they bothreach for the same piece at the
same time.
They're playing with thelibrary Legos and they both
reach for the same piece at thesame time.
They're playing with thelibrary Legos and they both
reach for the same piece.
And then they both proceeded tokind of let each other know
that they wanted it.
(14:14):
Now nobody laid hands on eachother, but they both expressed
their displeasure, let's say toone another and this is totally
normal, right, sharing isdifficult, especially with
siblings, and a librarian walkedover and said to them she
intervened, which was a littlestrange because I was sitting
right there.
Usually you don't see adults dothis but she felt empowered to
(14:36):
come over and say you know, weneed to share and we need to be
nice to each other at thelibrary, especially this time of
year.
And this, in my view, is justlike the highlight of and I
don't mean to you know thislibrarian had the best of
intentions and she's justoperating from her worldview too
, like I'm not knocking her atall, but this is the gross
underbelly of the Santa myth,right, the way that we use kids'
(15:00):
sense of magic and wonder togain compliance and to try and
incentivize good behavior.
You're being watched, you know.
He knows when you're sleeping,he knows when you're awake.
You better be good, and I wouldargue that if we are going to
choose to participate in thisSanta myth with our kids, at the
very least that part of it,what I call the naughty and nice
(15:21):
list, part of it, we shoulddeconstruct and get rid of Now.
I don't think you have to getrid of the entire myth, then I'm
saying that the part of themyth that is used primarily as
behavior modification isproblematic, no matter how old
your kids are and how you'reutilizing that.
And the reason I say this isbecause home really needs to be
(15:43):
a safe place for kids to expresstheir big feelings when they
have bad days, and it cannot bea place where there are elves
narking on them because they gottoo hungry or because they had
trouble sharing or because theyhad a bad day at school and they
just let off some steam andthat kind of goes.
And even if you don't do theelves, you know the narking
elves.
You also need to yourself be asafe person.
(16:06):
The number of times I've beenin the grocery store or we've
been walking by the toy aisleand you hear a parent say
something like well, I'm goingto tell Santa that you are X, y,
z right now.
We need to be safe too and ourkids need to know that we can be
people who they can bring theirproblems to.
The world is not a place whereour mess, our kids' mess, is
(16:27):
always going to be welcome andso that it needs to be welcome
in our home.
Like that's the basis of secureattachment.
As Eli Harwood attachmentexpert says, you have to give
kids a safe home base, like whenyou're playing tag and there's
like a home base where a kid cango and be safe from being
tagged.
Like that has to be home andyou can't have that place be a
(16:49):
place where they're constantlybeing watched and assessed and
monitored, and immediately bythe way, this was my son's, my
oldest aversion to Santa and Elfon a Shelf, like immediately.
He was like what do you mean?
This thing is watching me.
I am not okay with that, andeven if it's not the removal by
the way of presence like oh, ifyou aren't good, you're not
(17:12):
going to get any presents, evenif it's the reward side, the
other side of this coin, westill have the question should
we be using rewards, likepresents from Santa on Christmas
, to incentivize good behavior?
I actually have a snippet herethat I'm going to play from an
interview that I did for anupcoming episode of the podcast
It'll be later on in this seasonfrom Alfie Kohn, who wrote a
(17:35):
book called Punished by Rewards,but anyway, this is his take on
rewards with kids.
Alfie Kohn (17:42):
Studies have continued to show that children
who are frequently rewarded orpraised by their parents tend to
be less generous and caringthan other kids.
You might buy the behavior ofgetting them to do something,
(18:03):
but now the point is to see thatactivity as a means to an end.
Jon @wholeparent (18:13):
I want to stop here for a moment and ask
you, if you're enjoying thisepisode of the whole parent
podcast, to subscribe, whereveryou're listening, to rate this
episode and review the podcast.
I read every single reviewmyself.
They are what keep me going,and I want you to go and do one
extra thing for me here, andthat's to share it with at least
three friends in your life.
You can share it on socialmedia.
(18:34):
I think that that's great, butI want you to actually send this
episode to three people in yourlife who have kids between the
ages of three and 10 and say,hey, check this out, especially
your friends, maybe, who havealready talked about this.
Are we doing Santa?
Are you not doing Santa?
And send it to them.
You have no idea how much ithelps not only me to grow the
(18:55):
podcast, to get more listenersto keep us going doing this
thing, but also how it how ithelps people.
You don't know what, what,what's helping, and you can just
point to this episode, thispart in the episode, after you
share it with them and if theysay, you know, wait, do you
think I'm a bad parent?
Why are you sharing this withme?
You just say no, no, no, hejust told me I had to share it
(19:20):
and so I'm just doing what I'msupposed to do.
It, you know.
And if you don't do it, I wantyou to know.
Santa Claus is watching you andyou're going to get coal in
your stocking for Christmas ifyou don't share this with three
people.
Also, if you're looking tostart the new year off parenting
, better consider pre orderingmy book punishment free
parenting the brain based way toraise kids without raising your
voice.
It's available at the link inthe description, as well as
wherever books are sold, andit's also available on audiobook
.
So if you like this episode,where I'm kind of doing episodes
(19:41):
a little differently if youdidn't know that this season I'm
doing them more similarly tothe way that I wrote the book
and the audiobook.
So chances are, if you likethis episode, you're going to
love the book.
Okay, speaking of the episode,let's get back to it.
How do you handle thatinevitable moment when your kid
looks you in the eye and asksyou for real?
You know, is Santa real?
(20:03):
I'm going to give you threeapproaches that I think you can
take, depending on your child'sage and personality.
The first one is kind of theclassic way of talking to kids
about Santa, and that's to frameSanta as a symbol.
This works better for olderkids, you know, seven or older,
and this is where you saysomething to the extent of like
Santa is real in the sense thathe represents the spirit of
(20:26):
Christmas, or giving or kindness, and grownups get to take on
that role to keep that magicalive for kids.
Now you're old enough, you getto be part of that tradition too
.
You get to be Santa, and thisapproach does something that's
really cool.
It empowers kids to graduateinto the role of Santa, which
we're going to talk about herein a moment is a really helpful
balancing point for thatdisappointment that Santa is not
(20:49):
real and, especially with oldersiblings, it can help them feel
more empowered, like they'recontributing to these acts of
kindness, helping the youngersiblings.
The second way to answer this isto answer the question with a
question.
This is what I would use withyounger kids.
So if your child's asking youabout Santa but you think you
know they really want you tojust validate that you know
(21:11):
Santa is real, you just respondby saying, well, what do you
think?
And this gives them a windowinto their own thought processes
and allows you to kind of gaugehow much information they're
ready for.
This can often just lead themto tell you everything that they
think about Santa Claus, whichmight be the reason that they
were asking you in the firstplace is just to kind of bounce
(21:31):
it off of you and at the end youcan validate that.
You don't have to then say,like you, oh well, that's not
true.
Like you, you can just kind ofsay, oh, that's, that's really
cool.
Thank you for telling me that.
The last way is what I use formore logical kids, and this is
just to give them it's what Icall the it's pretend answer and
(21:53):
it goes something like this yousay santa is not a person who
lives at the North Pole.
This is for the kids who areasking all of the technical
questions you know about timetravel.
If you're getting into quantummechanics to explain Santa Claus
, like at this point, we'reprobably past the point where we
should have had the it'spretend conversation.
So you say you know, santa isnot a person who lives at the
(22:15):
North Pole, but the story ofSanta is something that families
, as grown-ups, like to pretend,and it's fun to pretend
sometimes, and so you canpretend along with us.
And this last approach, theit's pretend approach, is the
one that Fred Rogers used in hisvery infamous 1973 episode of
(22:37):
Mr Rogers' Neighborhood calledIs Santa Claus Real.
It's hard to imagine now thatthat show was ever considered
controversial, but there areactually a handful of episodes
of Mr Rogers' Neighborhood thatwere incredibly controversial,
some of them so much so that youcan't even watch them.
I can't find them anywhere.
There's a whole week in the1980s where he talks about
(22:59):
nuclear weapons and disarmament.
I mean, like Fred really waspretty radical in many respects.
But in this you know 1973 isSanta Claus real episode he
effectively tells kids at theend no, santa is just pretend.
And it's remembered for thatmoment when he admits that at
(23:21):
the end and then he sings thissong about pretending.
But it also features what Ithink is one of the best
children's most poignantconversations about Santa in the
make believe world.
So in make believe world, ifyou're familiar with the show,
this is where Daniel Tiger.
So in Make-Believe World, ifyou're familiar with the show,
this is where Daniel Tiger lives.
This is where the puppets liveand Daniel Tiger in this case is
(23:41):
concerned.
Mr. Rogers Neighborhood C (23:42):
Santa Claus is coming to the
neighborhood of Make-BelieveSanta Claus.
What's he going to do to us?
Oh well, I imagine it will besomething good.
Oh, I try to be good, but I'mnot always good.
I think I'm afraid of SantaClaus.
Jon @wholeparent (24:05):
I wish he weren't coming here.
Daniel basically says like hedoesn't want Santa to come
because Santa is watching himwhile he's sleeping and Daniel
knows he hasn't always been goodTo which Santa, who is being
played by one of the kind ofregulars on the show something
that Mr Rogers is going to pointout later when they talk about
the land of make-believe that itwas just a person in a costume
Santa says you know, I'm noteven always good.
Mr. Rogers Neighborhood Clip (24:28):
I am Daniel Striped Tiger and I'm
not always good.
Well, I'm Santa Claus, and I'mnot always good either.
Jon @wholeparent (24:37):
And Santa has this line.
I can just imagine Fred writingit.
Mr. Rogers Neighborhood Cli (24:41):
You aren't, of course not.
Good people aren't always good,they just try to be.
Jon @wholeparent (24:47):
By the end of the episode.
I think it's kind ofinescapable that Fred has kind
of put on a master class in howyou can effectively and
ethically talk to kids aboutSanta.
But I'm telling you, parents in1973, according to people who
have researched Fred and hislife they were not happy.
They did not feel this way.
(25:08):
They felt like the man thatthey had trusted to teach their
kids about emotions had justhurt them.
So I think it's important topoint out that the reason they
felt that way, I think isbecause one of the biggest
reasons that parents will keepup the Santa charade is because
we're afraid of how kids aregoing to respond to the truth
and react.
So the next kind of point herethat I want to make is to ask
(25:30):
the question is that fear thatour kids are going to be
absolutely devastated bylearning that Santa is not real
grounded in reality for us?
And according to Dr EileenKennedy Moore, who's this PhD
host of this Kids Ask DoctorFriendtastic podcast, which I
had never heard of untilresearching for this episode,
(25:51):
she says you know, yes, there'sdisappointment, but actually
it's okay.
She's phenomenal in thissegment that I watched.
She says, yeah, you know what,there is going to be
disappointment, but it'sactually okay, because if
they're at this age wherethey're really looking for
answers, then they actually needthe honesty and that if they're
at the right age to learn thiswhich, by the way, the right age
(26:13):
is not old enough, it's not tooold.
If they're young enough tolearn this, they'll recover
quickly.
The disappointment is actuallyalso going to be balanced out,
according to her and this iskind of what we were talking
about in that first response bythe sense of growth and pride,
of being trusted with this adultconcept that Santa's not real.
But what is very clear is thatthat happens if you are able to
(26:38):
express that Santa is not realyoung enough.
On the other hand, kids who aregoing to you know by some
miracle make it to middle schooland still believe in Santa,
they have a much harder roadcoming ahead of them.
They face a much biggerbetrayal and there are social
implications.
At some point it stops beingnaive and imaginative to believe
(27:02):
in this immortal elf who useshis flying reindeer to break
into millions of houses aroundthe world to deliver gifts and,
you know, satiate his seeminglybottomless appetite for cookies
and milk.
At some point it just getsweird, like, if you have a 12 or
13 year old who believes this,their friends are not going to
see that as like an endearingquirk.
(27:24):
They are going to experiencesome social blowback as a result
of expressing that belief topeople in their life.
And finding out about Santa toolate, doesn't?
You're not going to get thebenefit of that pride or the
sense of maturity.
It becomes a point of shame.
So that leads us to kind of thefinal point in this episode,
which is when is the right timeto spill the beans and in the
(27:45):
view of some parents some of mylisteners I'm sure murder your
child's sense of innocence andChristmas magic.
I think every parent has toanswer this for themselves.
It can't be too late, as we'vejust highlighted, but it doesn't
you don't have to do it whenthey're four either.
I think it depends on the kids.
For some kids, santa is justnever going to work and I think
(28:07):
parents who press it when itdoesn't work actually wind up
going to more harm.
This is kind of what happenedto Daniel Tiger.
The thought of a person cominginto your house in the middle of
the night, regardless of whatthey're bringing you, can be
unnerving, especially for highlysensitive kids.
For other kids it's that kindof underbelly of the tradition.
He knows when you're sleeping,he knows when you're awake, he
(28:28):
knows if you've been bad or good, so be good, for goodness sake.
That is going to bother a lotof kids and if you are unable to
divorce that from the mythitself, you may have to kind of
end the myth earlier than youmight like, because that's a
really difficult piece and a lotof kids have trouble with that.
That was the piece for my son.
Once he had heard that he waslike no way, no, no way, jose.
(28:52):
For some kids the tradition isfun and whimsical and later,
once their brain develops, thefacts catch up with St Nick and
you know it's a pretty natural.
Oh yeah, that was just a forfun thing.
And yes, for some you're goingto have to have a hard
conversation that they may notwant to have, but for them it is
(29:13):
the kinder option than allowingthem to kind of keep
perpetuating in this way.
And one last note on the whenhere it's not always a clear
line for our kids or for us.
Kids often reflect later thatthey knew, but they chose to
keep up the charade.
But that might not even havebeen a conscious choice.
For them, the magic was justkind of worth perpetuating.
(29:35):
So with that in mind, I want toend this episode a little bit
differently.
In our house we have three boyswho have very different views
on Santa.
I interviewed two of them andI'm going to play that for you
now.
Okay, you can start by sayingyour name and yeah, just for
people who are listening to sayyour name and say how old you
(29:58):
are.
Matt and Ollie (30:00):
My name is Matt and I am eight.
Jon @wholeparent (30:02):
Okay, matt, I have called you here with a
really important set ofquestions.
My first one I've already kindof told you what we're going to
talk about, but my first one iswhat do you think about Santa
Claus?
Matt and Ollie (30:17):
I think that I don't think he's real because I
don't like the idea of someonejust sneaking to our house every
year.
What do the kids at your schoolthink about Santa?
Jon @wholeparent (30:33):
Most of them, yes, about like 2% of them
think that Santa isn't real, soyou're in the minority.
There's not very many peoplewho think what you think.
Yes.
What do you think about yourbrothers?
Do you think that your brothersbelieve in Santa or do you
think that they don't believe in?
Matt and Ollie (30:50):
Santa, I've never asked them.
Jon @wholeparent (30:51):
If you had to guess.
Matt and Ollie (30:53):
Probably Liam believes in and Ollie's like not
so sure.
Jon @wholeparent (30:59):
Can you say your name and how old you are?
Matt and Ollie (31:05):
Um what's the name?
Um my actual name or mynickname?
Jon @wholeparent (31:11):
Whichever one you want.
Matt and Ollie (31:14):
Okay, oliver, and four years old.
Jon @wholeparent (31:18):
You're Oliver and you are four years old.
Matt and Ollie (31:20):
Actually I'm four and a half years.
Jon @wholeparent (31:23):
Oliver, who's four and a half years old, can
you tell me about Santa Claus?
Tell me what you know aboutSanta Claus?
Matt and Ollie (31:30):
Him give presents to somebody.
Jon @wholeparent (31:32):
He gives presents to people.
When does he come?
Matt and Ollie (31:37):
At nighttime.
Jon @wholeparent (31:39):
He comes at nighttime.
What do you think about SantaClaus coming into our house
while we're all sleeping?
Matt and Ollie (31:44):
How he get into the house.
He goes in the chimney.
Jon @wholeparent (31:50):
Do you think that's okay that he comes in our
house while we're sleeping Toleave us presents?
Matt and Ollie (31:55):
What.
Jon @wholeparent (31:56):
Yeah, that doesn't make you nervous or
anything.
Matt and Ollie (31:59):
Well, that's because his head not goes
upstairs.
Jon @wholeparent (32:02):
Oh, because he doesn't go upstairs where we
sleep, so it's okay.
Matt and Ollie (32:06):
Well, because our tree's not upstairs it,
because he doesn't go upstairswhere we sleep, so it's okay.
Well, because our tree's notupstairs, it's downstairs.
Jon @wholeparent (32:11):
He just comes out and he goes to our tree.
Matt and Ollie (32:14):
Right, and then he puts the presents under the
tree.
Jon @wholeparent (32:18):
Nice.
So do you think that it's okaythat grown-ups do Santa with
kids, or do you think, do youwish that grown-ups didn't do
Santa?
Matt and Ollie (32:25):
I wish that grown-ups didn't do Santa.
I wish that grown-ups didn't do.
Jon @wholeparent (32:28):
Santa Really why?
Matt and Ollie (32:29):
Because it's like, if you're good, you get
presents, if you're bad, youeither get coal or nothing.
Jon @wholeparent (32:36):
What if that part of Santa was gone?
So what if we took away thegood and the bad part?
What do you think about Santathen?
Matt and Ollie (32:49):
A little bit better, but still not the idea
of someone sneaking into yourhouse.
He can give everyone presentsin the whole time war, or
because everyone in the worldand the house is all over the
world does he care if kids havebeen good or bad?
Jon @wholeparent (33:03):
Um, or do you think that he just gives
presents to everyone?
Matt and Ollie (33:08):
Him, him this, those that one is good.
Jon @wholeparent (33:13):
He just gives presents to the good people.
Matt and Ollie (33:16):
Well, I'm a good person so I say silly things
like the poopy stuff.
Jon @wholeparent (33:22):
I say yeah, you are a good person.
If we decide to do Santa thisyear with Ollie, are you going
to help us do it or are yougoing to tell him that Santa's
not real?
What do you think?
Matt and Ollie (33:35):
I'll help him.
Jon @wholeparent (33:36):
Do you think that Matt believes in Santa
Claus?
Matt and Ollie (33:38):
What does he believe in?
Santa Claus?
I like playing along.
I play along with my friendsnext door all the time, like if
they see like Mom would pull inand it was like really dark,
they would think, oh no, there'sa monster sneaking into your
house.
I'll just be like oh no, eventhough I know it's my mom.
Jon @wholeparent (34:00):
Do you think that it's okay if other kids
believe in Santa, or do youthink that that's?
Matt and Ollie (34:04):
Anyone can believe what anyone wants to
believe thank you for being onthe podcast, matt you're welcome
thanks again for listening tothis episode of the whole parent
podcast.
Jon @wholeparent (34:15):
If you enjoyed it, please go wherever
you are listening to it and rateand review.
Make sure that you aresubscribed so that you get
updates.
If you'd like to learn moreabout whole parent, get a copy
of the book.
You can go down to thedescription below.
There should be links there toall of the things, but
especially the audiobook, for myupcoming book, punishment-free
(34:35):
Parenting the Brain-Based Way toRaise Kids Without Raising your
Voice.
Make sure that you get yourcopy pre-ordered.
It helps me incredibly whenpeople order before the release
date.
I cannot state that enough.
Best of luck to you and yourfamily this holiday season,
whether you're celebrating SantaClaus or not.
And just remember, in the endyou are the expert on your kids.
(34:55):
You can adapt your parenting tofit their needs and I think
that you are doing an amazingjob.
Till next time.
This has been the Whole ParentPodcast.
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