February 6, 2025 • 37 mins
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Why does it feel like one partner carries the weight of managing the home and kids while the other thinks everything is equal? If you've ever felt exhausted by the invisible labor of parenting—or if you've ever felt like nothing you do measures up to your partner’s expectations—this episode is for you.
In this episode of The Whole Parent Podcast, I sit down with Eve Rodsky, author of Fair Play, to unpack the division of labor in parenting. We dive into the mental load, the emotional labor, and why so many families fall into patterns where one parent (usually mom) takes on the bulk of the work—often without even realizing it.
Eve shares the Fair Play framework, a system that helps couples move from frustration and resentment to true partnership in running a household. We’ll talk about:
✔️ Why "helping" isn't the same as "ownership"
✔️ How assumptions about gender roles silently shape our parenting dynamics
✔️ The hidden labor of planning, managing, and executing daily family life
✔️ How to start creating a more equitable system
✔️ The simple mindset shift that can transform your relationship
If you’ve ever caught yourself saying “I have to do everything around here” and “I shouldn’t have to ask for help”, OR "My partner doesn't trust me" and "I can't do anything right...." this episode will change the way you think about parenting, partnership, and fairness in your home.
If this episode resonated with you, share it with a partner or a friend. Let’s change the way we divide the mental load—one family at a time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
There's a moment in almost every two-parent
household with kids, a momentthat's so universal that if you
close your eyes you can probablyalmost hear it.
It happens somewhere betweenthat first sip of coffee, the
scramble to get out the door andone of the parents usually mom
(00:29):
realizes that she's the only onewho knows where the soccer
cleats are.
Maybe it's going to be dadwho's actually responsible for
driving her to soccer practicethat day, but will he remember
if he doesn't get a text frommom?
Will he remember that on theway to soccer practice he
probably needs to stop somewhereto get dinner?
And who will remember to grabthe soccer ball on the way to
the car?
And what about the fact thattoday is also pajama day for her
(00:53):
little brother?
Or that somebody needs to textthe babysitter?
And then there's the moment,much later, when the kids are
finally in bed, when a differentrealization sets in.
It's a slow, creepingfrustration.
How did we get here?
Why does it feel to one partnerlike everything's equal, like
the responsibilities ofparenting and managing a home
(01:14):
are shared, while the otherpartner feels like they're
carrying all the weight?
Maybe you've had that moment too.
Maybe it was after the thirdtime that you had to remind your
partner to schedule thatpediatrician appointment.
That wasn't just going tomagically happen on its own.
Maybe it was the time that youcame home from work to find your
partner smiling at you becausethey had quote emptied the
(01:36):
dishwasher for you.
Maybe it was a text that youreceived from your partner.
I'm surprised that you didn'tget blueberries.
All right, we got to go.
It's time, do you need?
cookies no no, no, leave them.
We don't have time for cookiesright now.
In sociology there's a term forthis.
It's called the invisible laborof parenting, and studies show
(01:56):
it's not just about who does thething, it's about the mental
load, the planning, theanticipating, the emotional
labor of keeping a familyrunning.
And here's the kicker, even incouples who think that they're
doing things equally.
Even when both partners workfull-time, the research is clear
Moms, in the overwhelmingmajority of cases, still do more
(02:19):
, and yet in almost every couplethere's a different version of
this same conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I feel like I have to do everything around here.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I help just as much as everybody else.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
But I shouldn't have to ask you to help.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Does that sound familiar to you?
In today's episode, we'retalking about division of labor
and parenting, how the work ofrunning a family gets divided,
why it's rarely as equal as wethink and, most importantly,
what we can actually do to fixit.
If you've ever felt exhaustedby feeling like you have to
carry the mental load of yourhousehold, or if you've ever
(02:57):
felt exhausted by feeling likenothing you do can ever measure
up to your partner'sexpectations, this episode is
probably for you.
As I've been digging intoseason two here on the Whole
Parent Podcast, you've noticedthat the episodes have changed a
(03:18):
little bit.
Most of the episodes in seasontwo are structured differently
than the episodes in season one.
The solo episodes are much morefocused and they have a lot
higher production quality, andthe episodes with guests feel
more like those guests arecontributing to a conversation
that we're having rather thanyou just listening into a
conversation that I'm havingwith someone else.
(03:38):
I'm really committed to thisapproach going forward because I
think it makes for a much moreinteresting and engaging podcast
.
There are so many other amazingparenting podcasts out there
that function as sort of a hostand guest discussing a given
topic of their expertise.
What I felt like is lacking inthe parenting world is a podcast
that's really designed like apodcast More focused, more
(04:00):
storytelling and just kind ofbetter overall structure.
A lot of the episodes in seasontwo were recorded with this new
structure in mind, but I stillhave a few that were recorded in
the old format.
Some of them I've been able toadapt and make them feel a
little bit more like season two,but some of them just don't
really fit into that mold, whichI actually think is okay, and
(04:20):
this episode today is more likethat.
Today on the episode, my guestis Eve Rodsky, bestselling
author of Fair Play, which is abook all about how we can divide
labor more equitably inmarriages.
Obviously, a lot of that laborhas to do with the work of
parenting, and Eve has even toldme that that is the point in
(04:43):
most relationships, when therelationship starts to fragment
and break down.
You'll hear from her story thatthat was the point in her
relationship the blueberriestext, a moment that birthed the
fair play way.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I think the origin story is important and what I
always say is that this startedwith a text that my husband,
seth, sent me that just saidvery simply I'm surprised you
didn't get blueberries.
But the I'm surprised youdidn't get blueberries text
happened within context.
I had a newborn baby in thehouse and a toddler at home and
(05:18):
I was actually that day that Igot the I'm surprised you didn't
get blueberries text.
I was actually racing to get mytoddler, zach, at his toddler
transition program, which inAmerica, you know, costs our
entire salaries and lasts aboutlike 10 minutes.
And there was a baby at home.
So I had a breast pump and adiaper bag on the passenger seat
of my car.
I had gifts for the newbornbaby, ben, to return in the
(05:38):
backseat of my car.
I had a client contract in mylap because I had left the
corporate workforce.
Now I say I was forced outbecause I actually asked to work
from home on Fridays and theysaid no.
And then I went to this toddlertransition program over those
couple of days before I got thetext from Seth and what I
noticed was that my name tagjust said Zach's mom.
(06:01):
These are the people that aresupposed to be supporting me,
but they don't even know my name.
So at that time in my life I hada newborn baby and a toddler.
I was being abandoned by myworkplace that didn't want me
there, or that's how I felt andI was being abandoned by my
community my new schoolcommunity that didn't even know
my name.
And then, on top of that, myhusband sends me this text.
(06:24):
I'm surprised you didn't getblueberries.
And so I remember pulling overto the side of the road and just
starting to sob, sobbing for mycareer and for my new identity
as just a role somebody's parentbut really sobbing more for the
fact that I was the fulfillerof Seth's smoothie needs and the
fact that I was living astatistic that I didn't even
(06:46):
know at the time, which is thatwomen married to men shoulder
two thirds or more of what ittakes to run a home and family.
And I think that I wrote FairPlay because I never wanted any
woman or any partner really toget to the place that I was in
(07:06):
that day on the side of the road.
It's a lot higher since we'vebeen doing our studies over 10
years, but two-thirds was thestatistic at the time, in 2011.
We have our first quantitativestudy that shows that those that
have not been introduced toFair Play.
Things have not gotten betterfor those families and, in fact,
because of intensive parentingand all the things that the
(07:27):
Surgeon General is talking aboutthe stress on parents it could
actually be getting worse.
Fair Play came out in October1st 2019.
And I got to go to the WorldEconomic Forum in January of
2020, where I said that we'reone crisis away from losing 30
to 40 years of women's laborforce participation, and I think
(07:48):
why Fair Play became a movementwas because I was able to say
that in January 2020, when wehad no inkling that there was
going to be a pandemic thatactually showed us that we would
lose it within one month.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I just want to interrupt here for a moment and
say that this has to change.
My conversation with Eve isgoing to continue, but what she
just said about two-thirds ofprobably a gross underestimation
of the disproportionate loadthat women carry in
(08:28):
relationships, especiallyparenting and domestic
relationships, as compared totheir male counterparts.
If you're looking for furtherevidence of this, just go back
and listen to some of the newsstories about virtual schooling
in the early days of the 2020COVID pandemic.
Because of the stay-at-homeorders, a ton of domestic labor
and childcare responsibilitieswere just dropped onto families
(08:49):
and, according to surveys at thetime and researchers, over 80%
of that increased burden wastaken on by women.
So not only are they doingtwo-thirds of the invisible
labor at home on a daily basis.
When a crisis happens and a tonof unexpected new
responsibilities are droppedonto a household, women take
almost all of it.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
After the blueberries breakdown.
How did I end up getting to theplace where I knew that this
was the same shit, differentdecade problem?
Well, it turns out that thething I'm talking about has a
name.
It's been called the secondshift, it's been called
emotional labor.
It's been called the secondshift, it's been called
emotional labor, it's beencalled the mental load, but my
favorite term was actuallyinvisible work, and it was
(09:30):
coined in 1986.
And the idea was that women willalways and continue to shoulder
the invisible work of the homebecause it's unpaid and in a
society that values pay acapitalist patriarchy men are
going to take the time, eithertake it on leisure or things
(09:53):
that make money, and women aregoing to have to shoulder the
rest.
And so that was an interestingpiece for me, john, because what
I thought I could do and thiswas very naive at the time was,
as a lawyer and a mediator, Ithought I could look at this
through an organizationalmanagement lens and basically
say to myself well, all you haveto do is what Peter Drucker
(10:15):
says about organizations thatyou don't manage but you don't
measure.
That's what I did.
I started with the should I do?
Spreadsheet, where I started tomake the invisible, visible.
And then I would ask men andwomen about those 2000 items
that I put on that spreadsheetJohn who does groceries in your
house, john who takes the kidsto school, john who cleans?
(10:40):
And the biggest problem was thatthe answer was we both do.
And so we got into a dataproblem, because if it's true
that women shoulder two-thirdsor more of what it takes to run
a home and family, and then whenI ask individual couples and
they tell me they both do it,how was I actually going to get
to the right answer?
And that answer came throughasking the most important
(11:04):
question I've asked in the past10 years, and that question was
how does mustard get in yourrefrigerator?
That's how I ended up gettingto the Fair Play system, because
(11:24):
I asked it in 17 countries overthe past 10 years and what we
found was that women married tomen in 17 countries, even in the
Nordic countries like Norwayand Sweden, the places where we
think things are moreegalitarian.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Men were helping for sure the both of the groceries,
but this is what was happeningwere helping for sure, the both
of the groceries, but this iswhat was happening.
Women were noticing that theirsecond son, johnny, likes yellow
mustard, not spicy Dijon withthe protein, otherwise he chokes
.
Then that woman was actuallythe one monitoring the mustard
for when it ran low and gettingstakeholder buy-in from her
(12:00):
family for what they needed fromthe grocery store.
And then men were stepping into go purchase the yellow
mustard, but they were bringinghome spicy Dijon every time.
And so then women start to sayto me how am I going to trust my
husband with my living will?
The dude can't even bring homethe right type of mustard.
(12:21):
So once you looked at that as anorganizational problem of women
do conception, women do theplanning and men step into the
execution you can actually solvefor that organizational problem
.
Because that in an organizationthat's not the home and the
workplace.
If someone does conception andplanning and someone else does
execution, you call that apsychological safety fail.
(12:43):
That organization doesn't haveaccountability and trust, the
two things you need actually tobe a good partner and a good
parent.
And so that's what Fair Playdoes.
It solves for that problem byhelping parents and partners
take ownership of the fullconception, planning and
(13:04):
execution of a task, so thatthere is not an organizational
failure around expectations.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I think that this is such an important point because
because when you listed thosethings like who goes to school,
who does this the differencebetween and and I am by no means
flawless in this, but thedifference between just taking
full ownership of, like I'mdoing, drop-off now for my son
great, and if I can't dodrop-off, I have to make sure
(13:35):
that someone else is going to dodrop-off.
Yes and like there's no like, ohwell, then she'll just do it
Like I communicate.
Like you have to do drop-offtoday because I have a dentist
appointment.
That's actually today.
But when it comes to leavingthe house, I still packed the
lunch.
I still made sure that he wasready to go at the time that he
was ready to go.
I still made sure that he wasready to go at the time that he
(13:56):
was ready to go.
I still made sure, like shoesclosed, he has to bring certain
things to school.
He goes to forest school.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
He has to go forest.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
He goes to forest school, so like it's more than
just like a backpack, like hedoesn't have to remember his
homework, cause there's not alot of that, but he does have to
remember his galoshes, like hiswaiters you know, so, like,
like the waiters are stillsitting there, I'm like wait,
wait, wait, here's the waiters.
And just the idea that, like Iknow that, like getting him to
(14:21):
school is still my job, eventhough someone else is doing it,
it's still my job.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Put that clip on repeat for other men for the
rest of your life and you willbe doing, you'll be a cultural
warrior forever, because that issomething that is so simple yet
so still profoundlymisunderstood.
This is why Fair Play became alove letter to men, because I
(14:49):
actually think and this was verycontroversial to say to a lot
of women that the lack ofpsychological safety that men
reported to me in 17 countriesin their home is just as big of
a problem as the mental load forwomen.
What do I mean by that?
When you just come in atexecution, which means you're a
helper to the leader, not apartner, it's infantilizing B,
(15:16):
it's, as we said, there's verylittle psychological safety.
And here's why Because I don'tlike the word nagging.
I think that's a terrible word,but I like the word.
I call the rat, like nobodywants their homes infested with
rats.
A rat is a random assignment ofthe task, a random assignment of
a task and in 17 countries,like I said, even the
(15:39):
egalitarian ones men told methat they did not feel always
safe in their homes because theycouldn't get anything right.
When you are that personbringing home the spicy Dijon
and you get a rolling of youreyes like Jesus again, like you
don't know how to do anything.
It does not feel good to some.
(16:00):
Anybody's ego want to do thatagain.
I'm not blaming women becauseagain, the assumptions around
gender are the reasons why womenhave had to hold the conception
and planning the mental load inthe first place.
And that idea of getting ifyou're so overwhelmed, get help.
We've been using the word helpto women for so, so long as
(16:20):
opposed to get partnership.
But I do feel I feel for menall the time, because what they
say to me is that they weretasked with bringing the flowers
to recital and they broughtcarnations.
And their wife looks at themand says no one would ever bring
carnations.
Like what's wrong with you?
So there's a lot of times whereI feel like the rat.
The random assignment of a taskis really really, really
(16:43):
detrimental to men as well.
But the way that you get to asituation where you're not
failing at the execution, ittakes work.
You have to have those.
Why conversations?
And I'll give you an example, areverse example.
(17:07):
My husband is in charge of mealplanning, or you know he'll.
He'll be in charge of theconception planning, whether he
has, you know, our babysitter.
Help us to make that meal, orwhether he orders it in when I
take it over sometimes.
Oftentimes, it'll be like let'shave donuts for dinner and what
.
Seth said to me was that youbelieve in a minimum standard of
(17:29):
care.
That's a big piece of fair playhaving this idea of a minimum
standard of care.
What is the minimum we can bothdo to make each other happy
around this task, seth, when hesaid you take over meals, when
you were in charge of meals hesaid to me the only green on our
plates can't be just like aLucky Charms shamrock.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So I think that, like one of the things about
parenting that's such achallenge and that you just
express so clearly and fair play, with relationship to like
other family dynamics,particularly obviously
husband-wife partnership right,or just partnership, I should
say is that there are all ofthese unconscious assumptions of
like what the one side is isfeeling, thinking, doing
(18:21):
absolutely.
And that's where, like, from aparenting perspective, I go, I'm
reading fair play and I'm going, man, I have absolutely
struggled with this stuff inthis book, like I've absolutely
struggled with the gender norms.
I've absolutely struggled withthe just like assumed, like my
wife has also struggled with,especially the pretending that I
just know what she means andlike you know.
(18:43):
Like that I know, and part ofthat is that I have an ADHD
brain and she doesn't, and soshe's just like I don't get why
you don't just do stuff Right.
So so I get all that, but thenI go my gosh wait.
We're doing this with our kids.
Like, get all that, but then Igo, my gosh wait.
We're doing this with our kidsLike we're assuming that they
(19:03):
have the capacity, we'reassuming that they know what we
want they're assuming that theyknow what we need, and so like
that I feel like is is a bigpiece, Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I pretty much grew up as a latchkey kid living solely
on bodega food and McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yep, yep, yep, and, and I think, well, and that's so
, so, that's so, you're gettingto it right.
We have to appreciate that we'reall coming to this partnership,
this parenting relationship,with different expectations,
different goals in some cases,even if there are shared values,
oftentimes different goals,different expectations, and so
(19:34):
my example always of how I fallwoefully short as a husband is
that I do not see clutter andmess.
I don't see it, and it'sbecause partially it's become
because of my neurodivergence,but partially it's because I
grew up in an incrediblycluttered messy house and so
(19:55):
everything being kind of in thegeneral vicinity of where it is
and like you vacuumed one roomlike that's really clean, and
for my wife it's like that isdisgusting because her house
growing up like there was nodust.
There was no dust, and sothere's also.
It's not like, oh, one person'snot trying and I love that you
(20:15):
said that right Like it's notthat one person's not trying.
It's also that we have to beclear about our expectations.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Successful organizations have two things
accountability and trust.
So I'll give you an exampleabout the garbage.
When Seth took over ownershipof the garbage, he really
understood this term Once Istarted to develop the Fair
Place system and understood thatthat was the data, that we were
failing at the both trap.
We weren't really getting atthe fact that women were holding
this cognitive labor and menwere helping with execution.
(20:43):
I gave Seth garbage, but forthe first I would say, two
months I was like his garbagestalker.
I would follow him like a shadowaround the kitchen saying you
know when are you going to betaking out the garbage, until he
had to sit me down and say,look, this is not working.
I'm not going to take out thegarbage every second of every
day.
So I had to sit him down backto that.
(21:05):
Why that?
You just said earlier aboutwhat your house looked like
growing up and say to Seth, allright, let me just give you some
context for why I'm maybe yourgarbage stalker.
I grew up in a hoarder's houseand the biggest memory I have of
growing up was that I have adisabled brother and he would
want like water at night, and soI would like help him.
(21:25):
I'd put him to bed.
My mother worked nights and Iremember this was my routine.
If he needed water and hereally wanted me to get it, I'd
say fine.
So I'd go into the kitchen.
The light was already off.
I'd have to close my eyes inour sort of small kitchen in the
Lower East Side of New YorkCity and turn on the light and
wait for the cockroaches toscatter until I would get, and
(21:47):
then so just they would be goneand then I'd go get the water.
So for me, the idea of seeingeven a banana peel out of a
trash bag is really you know alot about me, right, and not
Seth.
And so I think when heunderstood that, he still said
to me I'm not going to be takingout the garbage every hour, but
he did promise me that garbagewould go out once a day and that
(22:08):
a liner would go back in thebag.
I think once I started to seethat accountability and trust
that he was doing that.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
There's a lot of accountability and trust that
are built back.
I hate the term default parent,like with a fiery passion.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Well, we call it she-fault.
Parent in the Fair.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Play world.
Yes, well, yeah, yes, yes, youhave the she-fault, like.
That's just what it is right.
I hate the term default parentand the reason why I hate it is
twofold.
One, I think if you are thedefault parent, like I
understand that you may havebeen pressed into that role
based on society, based on yourpartner, but to stay there when
(23:00):
you know that this is one of thegreat joys of life, you
actually reduced and AbsolutelyLike, the life satisfaction of
your partner is being harmed.
I'm not I'm gonna use this termvery loosely by your selfishness
of saying I am going to takecare of all of this.
And I don't mean selfish as inI'm doing what I want.
(23:20):
I mean selfish as in I am theself and I am in charge of this,
and so that's number one.
And if you're the defaultparent, like and I had to get
into this with my wife, we gotkind of reversed for a moment in
time.
She was still doing more than50% of the parenting, but I felt
like I had to bail her out Ifyou don't have the concept of
default parent, is that oneparent is no longer responsible,
(23:43):
and I think that that is likeone of the worst things.
One of the worst dynamics aparent pair can get into that
one person feels that they'renot really responsible.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Absolutely, but they only get into that, john, if
they don't have the three things.
That is a secret formula thatwe find in fair play couples,
which is boundaries, and theboundaries is nexus systems,
which is what we've been talkingabout so far, and the last is
communication, because when youdon't have boundaries and
(24:16):
systems and communication, whatyou do have are people who
become defaults because they usethree toxic words that never
work, and those usually are.
We're going to figure it out.
Nobody figures things out.
So, if you believe me thatthose are toxic words, what,
(24:39):
instead, you want to replacewith we're going to figure it
out which often leads to genderexpectations and usually women
being the default parent.
But again, it happens to mentoo, and they also feel the same
resentment that women feel whenthey're stuck in that role.
What we like to say is you takethe system, which means, instead
of a default parent, there areowners of tasks and you can
(25:02):
redeal those tasks.
As John was saying, when hecan't transport his kid to
school, he redeals it with fullownership to another person.
There is a reason we use thecard metaphor, because it shows
that things can be fluid.
You can redeal cards, you canchange things up.
If you're the default parenttoday, it doesn't have to stay
that way.
Of course, I was the defaultparent the day that I had the
breakdown about blueberries.
(25:23):
Not only was I the fulfiller ofSeth's smoothie needs, but I
was the holder of probably 88 ofthese cards, which was all that
were in play at the time,because some of them were not
relevant, aka things like pets.
But what you can do and thebeauty is that when you change
this figure it out assumption,where I can't talk about the
home because it's too triggering, you move into, I can
(25:47):
communicate about the home.
This is a communication shift.
I can create systems for thehome that can change at any
point because they're fluid andwe can talk about who owns what
tasks.
And on top of it this is theboundary piece I value my
partner's time.
I will never, john, as you, asmy partner, I will tell you, I
will never assume that you'rethe one to pick up the kids from
(26:10):
school because, a my job ismore flexible or your job is
more flexible, john, I can tellyou, as my partner, I will give
you the respect that I willnever assume, because you make
less money than me, that you'rethe one who has to do the tasks.
I can promise you, as a partner,that I will never say, john, in
the time it takes me to tellyou how to clean the floors,
(26:32):
I'll do it myself.
John, I can give you therespect to say, yes, we're both
nurse practitioners with PhDs,but I can find the time where I
will say you're better atfocusing on one task at a time,
so I will not give you thatopportunity.
These are all toxic messages wegive each other for why we
don't communicate about the home.
If you can hold your boundaryand say I will not say those
(26:55):
things, because those areexpectations that I have no idea
whether John actually believes,and I will come to the table
and say I value you, john, as mypartner and I know you value me
, regardless of how much money Imake, regardless of my gender,
then all of a sudden we can cometo the system and the
communication in a way that's usagainst the cards as opposed to
(27:16):
I have to fight for my leisuretime in my right against you.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
So the problem, though, becomes no matter which
partner it is, one of them islike I don't trust you to parent
, Like I don't trust you todiscipline, whether it's social
media or something else Iactually just don't trust you.
What do you do when you're inthat situation?
Like do we throw the cards outand just give up?
(27:53):
Like how does that work?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
That's a great question, john.
I think, as with everythingright, it's very futile to try
to change somebody else.
Usually.
Typically, you have to makeinternal changes for yourself.
You have to make internalchanges for yourself.
I will say that it was very,very alarming to me here at the
(28:18):
outcome of the question youasked.
When I asked a lot of womenwhat they did in those
situations, they would say to meI have three magic words for
you, eve.
I have three magic words foryou, eve, that have solved all
of my problems, and I'd beeagerly.
What are those three words thatsolved all your problems?
Often it was court order,custody or that allowed them to
have finally a full partner whenthey had somebody who was
(28:39):
taking over.
Now again, as somebody who grewup with a single mother and a
child of divorce, I was hoping Istill see, and this is the
beauty of it when I started this.
But this is the beauty of whatFair Play became.
Fair Play is sort of likedivorce or marry people, because
it leads to the same outcomesof ownership, which is really
good, without hopefully you knowthe divorce piece of you coming
(29:02):
to it, you know early enough.
But I want to just saysomething about changing
yourself and what you just said.
Hardest thing for me to hear,john, is what you just said I
don't trust my partner so I'mnot going to involve them
anymore.
It's very, very painful to hearthat, especially when there's a
child involved, typically theway it manifests is somebody
(29:24):
will say that to me.
I don't trust them anymore.
We've had these conversations.
I always end up with John notputting that extra dish back in
the sink, so I might as welljust do it myself, but I realize
it's happening there that thatperson is saying that they've
given up on communicating withthat person.
So typically I'd like for thatperson to start there.
So you're not even closegetting to the system yet.
(29:46):
You are, john and me, and we'realready educated in this work
and we just need a tune-up.
Yes, go straight to the cards,either as a way to tell your
stories or start the system.
We have tons of free resourceson our website that hopefully
John will link to in the shownote.
We have a book, we have adocumentary.
There's lots of ways toimplement the system.
(30:07):
But if you aren't there yet andJohn's question is that trust
question you have to look backat what happened to your
communication with your partner.
One thing during the pandemicreally really felt painful and
this is a story we can end onbecause it was really painful,
but I think it's reallyimportant.
There was a Facebook group.
The Facebook group was calledthe Reasons I Hate my Partner
(30:27):
During the Pandemic.
So that's what they said.
That's what this Facebook groupsaid.
Within that Facebook groupthere was a woman who says my
partner dies of COVID won't bebecause of the disease, it'll be
because of me.
So I reached out to this womanor my team did and we said hey,
can we ask you a couplequestions?
(30:48):
And what this woman said to uswas we said hey, you, we ask you
a couple questions.
And what this woman said to uswas we said hey, how do you
communicate with your partnerabout domestic life?
She said, with no irony, Idon't communicate with my
partner about domestic life.
This is my safe space, so Ijust want to reflect on that.
Quickly threatening to murderher partner in front of 27,000
(31:11):
strangers felt safer to her thancommunicating directly with her
partner.
We all get there at some point.
It felt safer to me to cry bymyself on the side of the road
and bang on my steering wheelthan to tell Seth how painful it
was to get his text.
I'm surprised you didn't getblueberries and what it meant to
(31:33):
me.
We can't let it get that bad.
You have to start investing incommunication.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Any final words for people who want to connect with
you more or want to start FairPlay.
Where do they start.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I would just say at this point just start where you
are, start where you are and themost important thing, which is
so in line with, I think, theparent message there should be
zero guilt and shame for,wherever you are, the situation
you're in the situation that wewere all put in because we have
(32:20):
a lack of structural support forparents in the United States.
So things should feel hard.
Because they are hard Doesn'tmean we can't change them.
One partnership at a time.
While you're changing things,one partnership at a time, john,
I'm fighting for all parents.
We have a Fair Play PolicyInstitute.
We are fighting for paid leave.
(32:40):
We are fighting for access tochild care, so there's no child
care deserts in this country.
We're fighting for parents.
While we do this, we can changedynamics, one partnership at a
time, and the more people cometo the table looking at their
organization through a lens ofnot 50-50 equality, partnership
(33:03):
and ownership, the better.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Thank you to Eva Rodsky for joining us for
today's episode of the WholeParent Podcast.
You can find all of her linksand resources, including to her
book Fair Play, down in theepisode description.
If you like this episode of theWhole Parent Podcast, make sure
that you go and like andsubscribe wherever you're
listening to it, and alsoconsider getting my audio book,
which came out on January 28th2025, called Punishment-Free
(33:35):
Parenting.
It's a step-by-step,brain-based guide to make
parenting a heck of a lot easier, so that you won't have to
struggle as much with thosecards as always.
If you have a person in yourlife in this case anyone,
whether they have kids or notwho's in a partnership, make
sure that you share this episodewith them personally.
Just shoot it to them in a text.
Tell them that you liked it,that you listened to it, that it
(33:59):
might help.
It's the best way that you canhelp spread this message.
See you next week.
There's a moment in almost every two-parent
household with kids, a momentthat's so universal that if you
close your eyes you can probablyalmost hear it.
It happens somewhere betweenthat first sip of coffee, the
scramble to get out the door andone of the parents usually mom
(00:29):
realizes that she's the only onewho knows where the soccer
cleats are.
Maybe it's going to be dadwho's actually responsible for
driving her to soccer practicethat day, but will he remember
if he doesn't get a text frommom?
Will he remember that on theway to soccer practice he
probably needs to stop somewhereto get dinner?
And who will remember to grabthe soccer ball on the way to
the car?
And what about the fact thattoday is also pajama day for her
(00:53):
little brother?
Or that somebody needs to textthe babysitter?
And then there's the moment,much later, when the kids are
finally in bed, when a differentrealization sets in.
It's a slow, creepingfrustration.
How did we get here?
Why does it feel to one partnerlike everything's equal, like
the responsibilities ofparenting and managing a home
(01:14):
are shared, while the otherpartner feels like they're
carrying all the weight?
Maybe you've had that moment too.
Maybe it was after the thirdtime that you had to remind your
partner to schedule thatpediatrician appointment.
That wasn't just going tomagically happen on its own.
Maybe it was the time that youcame home from work to find your
partner smiling at you becausethey had quote emptied the
(01:36):
dishwasher for you.
Maybe it was a text that youreceived from your partner.
I'm surprised that you didn'tget blueberries.
All right, we got to go.
It's time, do you need?
cookies no no, no, leave them.
We don't have time for cookiesright now.
In sociology there's a term forthis.
It's called the invisible laborof parenting, and studies show
(01:56):
it's not just about who does thething, it's about the mental
load, the planning, theanticipating, the emotional
labor of keeping a familyrunning.
And here's the kicker, even incouples who think that they're
doing things equally.
Even when both partners workfull-time, the research is clear
Moms, in the overwhelmingmajority of cases, still do more
(02:19):
, and yet in almost every couplethere's a different version of
this same conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I feel like I have to do everything around here.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I help just as much as everybody else.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
But I shouldn't have to ask you to help.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Does that sound familiar to you?
In today's episode, we'retalking about division of labor
and parenting, how the work ofrunning a family gets divided,
why it's rarely as equal as wethink and, most importantly,
what we can actually do to fixit.
If you've ever felt exhaustedby feeling like you have to
carry the mental load of yourhousehold, or if you've ever
(02:57):
felt exhausted by feeling likenothing you do can ever measure
up to your partner'sexpectations, this episode is
probably for you.
As I've been digging intoseason two here on the Whole
Parent Podcast, you've noticedthat the episodes have changed a
(03:18):
little bit.
Most of the episodes in seasontwo are structured differently
than the episodes in season one.
The solo episodes are much morefocused and they have a lot
higher production quality, andthe episodes with guests feel
more like those guests arecontributing to a conversation
that we're having rather thanyou just listening into a
conversation that I'm havingwith someone else.
(03:38):
I'm really committed to thisapproach going forward because I
think it makes for a much moreinteresting and engaging podcast
.
There are so many other amazingparenting podcasts out there
that function as sort of a hostand guest discussing a given
topic of their expertise.
What I felt like is lacking inthe parenting world is a podcast
that's really designed like apodcast More focused, more
(04:00):
storytelling and just kind ofbetter overall structure.
A lot of the episodes in seasontwo were recorded with this new
structure in mind, but I stillhave a few that were recorded in
the old format.
Some of them I've been able toadapt and make them feel a
little bit more like season two,but some of them just don't
really fit into that mold, whichI actually think is okay, and
(04:20):
this episode today is more likethat.
Today on the episode, my guestis Eve Rodsky, bestselling
author of Fair Play, which is abook all about how we can divide
labor more equitably inmarriages.
Obviously, a lot of that laborhas to do with the work of
parenting, and Eve has even toldme that that is the point in
(04:43):
most relationships, when therelationship starts to fragment
and break down.
You'll hear from her story thatthat was the point in her
relationship the blueberriestext, a moment that birthed the
fair play way.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I think the origin story is important and what I
always say is that this startedwith a text that my husband,
seth, sent me that just saidvery simply I'm surprised you
didn't get blueberries.
But the I'm surprised youdidn't get blueberries text
happened within context.
I had a newborn baby in thehouse and a toddler at home and
(05:18):
I was actually that day that Igot the I'm surprised you didn't
get blueberries text.
I was actually racing to get mytoddler, zach, at his toddler
transition program, which inAmerica, you know, costs our
entire salaries and lasts aboutlike 10 minutes.
And there was a baby at home.
So I had a breast pump and adiaper bag on the passenger seat
of my car.
I had gifts for the newbornbaby, ben, to return in the
(05:38):
backseat of my car.
I had a client contract in mylap because I had left the
corporate workforce.
Now I say I was forced outbecause I actually asked to work
from home on Fridays and theysaid no.
And then I went to this toddlertransition program over those
couple of days before I got thetext from Seth and what I
noticed was that my name tagjust said Zach's mom.
(06:01):
These are the people that aresupposed to be supporting me,
but they don't even know my name.
So at that time in my life I hada newborn baby and a toddler.
I was being abandoned by myworkplace that didn't want me
there, or that's how I felt andI was being abandoned by my
community my new schoolcommunity that didn't even know
my name.
And then, on top of that, myhusband sends me this text.
(06:24):
I'm surprised you didn't getblueberries.
And so I remember pulling overto the side of the road and just
starting to sob, sobbing for mycareer and for my new identity
as just a role somebody's parentbut really sobbing more for the
fact that I was the fulfillerof Seth's smoothie needs and the
fact that I was living astatistic that I didn't even
(06:46):
know at the time, which is thatwomen married to men shoulder
two thirds or more of what ittakes to run a home and family.
And I think that I wrote FairPlay because I never wanted any
woman or any partner really toget to the place that I was in
(07:06):
that day on the side of the road.
It's a lot higher since we'vebeen doing our studies over 10
years, but two-thirds was thestatistic at the time, in 2011.
We have our first quantitativestudy that shows that those that
have not been introduced toFair Play.
Things have not gotten betterfor those families and, in fact,
because of intensive parentingand all the things that the
(07:27):
Surgeon General is talking aboutthe stress on parents it could
actually be getting worse.
Fair Play came out in October1st 2019.
And I got to go to the WorldEconomic Forum in January of
2020, where I said that we'reone crisis away from losing 30
to 40 years of women's laborforce participation, and I think
(07:48):
why Fair Play became a movementwas because I was able to say
that in January 2020, when wehad no inkling that there was
going to be a pandemic thatactually showed us that we would
lose it within one month.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I just want to interrupt here for a moment and
say that this has to change.
My conversation with Eve isgoing to continue, but what she
just said about two-thirds ofprobably a gross underestimation
of the disproportionate loadthat women carry in
(08:28):
relationships, especiallyparenting and domestic
relationships, as compared totheir male counterparts.
If you're looking for furtherevidence of this, just go back
and listen to some of the newsstories about virtual schooling
in the early days of the 2020COVID pandemic.
Because of the stay-at-homeorders, a ton of domestic labor
and childcare responsibilitieswere just dropped onto families
(08:49):
and, according to surveys at thetime and researchers, over 80%
of that increased burden wastaken on by women.
So not only are they doingtwo-thirds of the invisible
labor at home on a daily basis.
When a crisis happens and a tonof unexpected new
responsibilities are droppedonto a household, women take
almost all of it.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
After the blueberries breakdown.
How did I end up getting to theplace where I knew that this
was the same shit, differentdecade problem?
Well, it turns out that thething I'm talking about has a
name.
It's been called the secondshift, it's been called
emotional labor.
It's been called the secondshift, it's been called
emotional labor, it's beencalled the mental load, but my
favorite term was actuallyinvisible work, and it was
(09:30):
coined in 1986.
And the idea was that women willalways and continue to shoulder
the invisible work of the homebecause it's unpaid and in a
society that values pay acapitalist patriarchy men are
going to take the time, eithertake it on leisure or things
(09:53):
that make money, and women aregoing to have to shoulder the
rest.
And so that was an interestingpiece for me, john, because what
I thought I could do and thiswas very naive at the time was,
as a lawyer and a mediator, Ithought I could look at this
through an organizationalmanagement lens and basically
say to myself well, all you haveto do is what Peter Drucker
(10:15):
says about organizations thatyou don't manage but you don't
measure.
That's what I did.
I started with the should I do?
Spreadsheet, where I started tomake the invisible, visible.
And then I would ask men andwomen about those 2000 items
that I put on that spreadsheetJohn who does groceries in your
house, john who takes the kidsto school, john who cleans?
(10:40):
And the biggest problem was thatthe answer was we both do.
And so we got into a dataproblem, because if it's true
that women shoulder two-thirdsor more of what it takes to run
a home and family, and then whenI ask individual couples and
they tell me they both do it,how was I actually going to get
to the right answer?
And that answer came throughasking the most important
(11:04):
question I've asked in the past10 years, and that question was
how does mustard get in yourrefrigerator?
That's how I ended up gettingto the Fair Play system, because
(11:24):
I asked it in 17 countries overthe past 10 years and what we
found was that women married tomen in 17 countries, even in the
Nordic countries like Norwayand Sweden, the places where we
think things are moreegalitarian.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Men were helping for sure the both of the groceries,
but this is what was happeningwere helping for sure, the both
of the groceries, but this iswhat was happening.
Women were noticing that theirsecond son, johnny, likes yellow
mustard, not spicy Dijon withthe protein, otherwise he chokes
.
Then that woman was actuallythe one monitoring the mustard
for when it ran low and gettingstakeholder buy-in from her
(12:00):
family for what they needed fromthe grocery store.
And then men were stepping into go purchase the yellow
mustard, but they were bringinghome spicy Dijon every time.
And so then women start to sayto me how am I going to trust my
husband with my living will?
The dude can't even bring homethe right type of mustard.
(12:21):
So once you looked at that as anorganizational problem of women
do conception, women do theplanning and men step into the
execution you can actually solvefor that organizational problem
.
Because that in an organizationthat's not the home and the
workplace.
If someone does conception andplanning and someone else does
execution, you call that apsychological safety fail.
(12:43):
That organization doesn't haveaccountability and trust, the
two things you need actually tobe a good partner and a good
parent.
And so that's what Fair Playdoes.
It solves for that problem byhelping parents and partners
take ownership of the fullconception, planning and
(13:04):
execution of a task, so thatthere is not an organizational
failure around expectations.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I think that this is such an important point because
because when you listed thosethings like who goes to school,
who does this the differencebetween and and I am by no means
flawless in this, but thedifference between just taking
full ownership of, like I'mdoing, drop-off now for my son
great, and if I can't dodrop-off, I have to make sure
(13:35):
that someone else is going to dodrop-off.
Yes and like there's no like, ohwell, then she'll just do it
Like I communicate.
Like you have to do drop-offtoday because I have a dentist
appointment.
That's actually today.
But when it comes to leavingthe house, I still packed the
lunch.
I still made sure that he wasready to go at the time that he
was ready to go.
I still made sure that he wasready to go at the time that he
(13:56):
was ready to go.
I still made sure, like shoesclosed, he has to bring certain
things to school.
He goes to forest school.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
He has to go forest.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
He goes to forest school, so like it's more than
just like a backpack, like hedoesn't have to remember his
homework, cause there's not alot of that, but he does have to
remember his galoshes, like hiswaiters you know, so, like,
like the waiters are stillsitting there, I'm like wait,
wait, wait, here's the waiters.
And just the idea that, like Iknow that, like getting him to
(14:21):
school is still my job, eventhough someone else is doing it,
it's still my job.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Put that clip on repeat for other men for the
rest of your life and you willbe doing, you'll be a cultural
warrior forever, because that issomething that is so simple yet
so still profoundlymisunderstood.
This is why Fair Play became alove letter to men, because I
(14:49):
actually think and this was verycontroversial to say to a lot
of women that the lack ofpsychological safety that men
reported to me in 17 countriesin their home is just as big of
a problem as the mental load forwomen.
What do I mean by that?
When you just come in atexecution, which means you're a
helper to the leader, not apartner, it's infantilizing B,
(15:16):
it's, as we said, there's verylittle psychological safety.
And here's why Because I don'tlike the word nagging.
I think that's a terrible word,but I like the word.
I call the rat, like nobodywants their homes infested with
rats.
A rat is a random assignment ofthe task, a random assignment of
a task and in 17 countries,like I said, even the
(15:39):
egalitarian ones men told methat they did not feel always
safe in their homes because theycouldn't get anything right.
When you are that personbringing home the spicy Dijon
and you get a rolling of youreyes like Jesus again, like you
don't know how to do anything.
It does not feel good to some.
(16:00):
Anybody's ego want to do thatagain.
I'm not blaming women becauseagain, the assumptions around
gender are the reasons why womenhave had to hold the conception
and planning the mental load inthe first place.
And that idea of getting ifyou're so overwhelmed, get help.
We've been using the word helpto women for so, so long as
(16:20):
opposed to get partnership.
But I do feel I feel for menall the time, because what they
say to me is that they weretasked with bringing the flowers
to recital and they broughtcarnations.
And their wife looks at themand says no one would ever bring
carnations.
Like what's wrong with you?
So there's a lot of times whereI feel like the rat.
The random assignment of a taskis really really, really
(16:43):
detrimental to men as well.
But the way that you get to asituation where you're not
failing at the execution, ittakes work.
You have to have those.
Why conversations?
And I'll give you an example, areverse example.
(17:07):
My husband is in charge of mealplanning, or you know he'll.
He'll be in charge of theconception planning, whether he
has, you know, our babysitter.
Help us to make that meal, orwhether he orders it in when I
take it over sometimes.
Oftentimes, it'll be like let'shave donuts for dinner and what
.
Seth said to me was that youbelieve in a minimum standard of
(17:29):
care.
That's a big piece of fair playhaving this idea of a minimum
standard of care.
What is the minimum we can bothdo to make each other happy
around this task, seth, when hesaid you take over meals, when
you were in charge of meals hesaid to me the only green on our
plates can't be just like aLucky Charms shamrock.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So I think that, like one of the things about
parenting that's such achallenge and that you just
express so clearly and fair play, with relationship to like
other family dynamics,particularly obviously
husband-wife partnership right,or just partnership, I should
say is that there are all ofthese unconscious assumptions of
like what the one side is isfeeling, thinking, doing
(18:21):
absolutely.
And that's where, like, from aparenting perspective, I go, I'm
reading fair play and I'm going, man, I have absolutely
struggled with this stuff inthis book, like I've absolutely
struggled with the gender norms.
I've absolutely struggled withthe just like assumed, like my
wife has also struggled with,especially the pretending that I
just know what she means andlike you know.
(18:43):
Like that I know, and part ofthat is that I have an ADHD
brain and she doesn't, and soshe's just like I don't get why
you don't just do stuff Right.
So so I get all that, but thenI go my gosh wait.
We're doing this with our kids.
Like, get all that, but then Igo, my gosh wait.
We're doing this with our kidsLike we're assuming that they
(19:03):
have the capacity, we'reassuming that they know what we
want they're assuming that theyknow what we need, and so like
that I feel like is is a bigpiece, Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I pretty much grew up as a latchkey kid living solely
on bodega food and McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yep, yep, yep, and, and I think, well, and that's so
, so, that's so, you're gettingto it right.
We have to appreciate that we'reall coming to this partnership,
this parenting relationship,with different expectations,
different goals in some cases,even if there are shared values,
oftentimes different goals,different expectations, and so
(19:34):
my example always of how I fallwoefully short as a husband is
that I do not see clutter andmess.
I don't see it, and it'sbecause partially it's become
because of my neurodivergence,but partially it's because I
grew up in an incrediblycluttered messy house and so
(19:55):
everything being kind of in thegeneral vicinity of where it is
and like you vacuumed one roomlike that's really clean, and
for my wife it's like that isdisgusting because her house
growing up like there was nodust.
There was no dust, and sothere's also.
It's not like, oh, one person'snot trying and I love that you
(20:15):
said that right Like it's notthat one person's not trying.
It's also that we have to beclear about our expectations.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Successful organizations have two things
accountability and trust.
So I'll give you an exampleabout the garbage.
When Seth took over ownershipof the garbage, he really
understood this term Once Istarted to develop the Fair
Place system and understood thatthat was the data, that we were
failing at the both trap.
We weren't really getting atthe fact that women were holding
this cognitive labor and menwere helping with execution.
(20:43):
I gave Seth garbage, but forthe first I would say, two
months I was like his garbagestalker.
I would follow him like a shadowaround the kitchen saying you
know when are you going to betaking out the garbage, until he
had to sit me down and say,look, this is not working.
I'm not going to take out thegarbage every second of every
day.
So I had to sit him down backto that.
(21:05):
Why that?
You just said earlier aboutwhat your house looked like
growing up and say to Seth, allright, let me just give you some
context for why I'm maybe yourgarbage stalker.
I grew up in a hoarder's houseand the biggest memory I have of
growing up was that I have adisabled brother and he would
want like water at night, and soI would like help him.
(21:25):
I'd put him to bed.
My mother worked nights and Iremember this was my routine.
If he needed water and hereally wanted me to get it, I'd
say fine.
So I'd go into the kitchen.
The light was already off.
I'd have to close my eyes inour sort of small kitchen in the
Lower East Side of New YorkCity and turn on the light and
wait for the cockroaches toscatter until I would get, and
(21:47):
then so just they would be goneand then I'd go get the water.
So for me, the idea of seeingeven a banana peel out of a
trash bag is really you know alot about me, right, and not
Seth.
And so I think when heunderstood that, he still said
to me I'm not going to be takingout the garbage every hour, but
he did promise me that garbagewould go out once a day and that
(22:08):
a liner would go back in thebag.
I think once I started to seethat accountability and trust
that he was doing that.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
There's a lot of accountability and trust that
are built back.
I hate the term default parent,like with a fiery passion.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Well, we call it she-fault.
Parent in the Fair.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Play world.
Yes, well, yeah, yes, yes, youhave the she-fault, like.
That's just what it is right.
I hate the term default parentand the reason why I hate it is
twofold.
One, I think if you are thedefault parent, like I
understand that you may havebeen pressed into that role
based on society, based on yourpartner, but to stay there when
(23:00):
you know that this is one of thegreat joys of life, you
actually reduced and AbsolutelyLike, the life satisfaction of
your partner is being harmed.
I'm not I'm gonna use this termvery loosely by your selfishness
of saying I am going to takecare of all of this.
And I don't mean selfish as inI'm doing what I want.
(23:20):
I mean selfish as in I am theself and I am in charge of this,
and so that's number one.
And if you're the defaultparent, like and I had to get
into this with my wife, we gotkind of reversed for a moment in
time.
She was still doing more than50% of the parenting, but I felt
like I had to bail her out Ifyou don't have the concept of
default parent, is that oneparent is no longer responsible,
(23:43):
and I think that that is likeone of the worst things.
One of the worst dynamics aparent pair can get into that
one person feels that they'renot really responsible.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Absolutely, but they only get into that, john, if
they don't have the three things.
That is a secret formula thatwe find in fair play couples,
which is boundaries, and theboundaries is nexus systems,
which is what we've been talkingabout so far, and the last is
communication, because when youdon't have boundaries and
(24:16):
systems and communication, whatyou do have are people who
become defaults because they usethree toxic words that never
work, and those usually are.
We're going to figure it out.
Nobody figures things out.
So, if you believe me thatthose are toxic words, what,
(24:39):
instead, you want to replacewith we're going to figure it
out which often leads to genderexpectations and usually women
being the default parent.
But again, it happens to mentoo, and they also feel the same
resentment that women feel whenthey're stuck in that role.
What we like to say is you takethe system, which means, instead
of a default parent, there areowners of tasks and you can
(25:02):
redeal those tasks.
As John was saying, when hecan't transport his kid to
school, he redeals it with fullownership to another person.
There is a reason we use thecard metaphor, because it shows
that things can be fluid.
You can redeal cards, you canchange things up.
If you're the default parenttoday, it doesn't have to stay
that way.
Of course, I was the defaultparent the day that I had the
breakdown about blueberries.
(25:23):
Not only was I the fulfiller ofSeth's smoothie needs, but I
was the holder of probably 88 ofthese cards, which was all that
were in play at the time,because some of them were not
relevant, aka things like pets.
But what you can do and thebeauty is that when you change
this figure it out assumption,where I can't talk about the
home because it's too triggering, you move into, I can
(25:47):
communicate about the home.
This is a communication shift.
I can create systems for thehome that can change at any
point because they're fluid andwe can talk about who owns what
tasks.
And on top of it this is theboundary piece I value my
partner's time.
I will never, john, as you, asmy partner, I will tell you, I
will never assume that you'rethe one to pick up the kids from
(26:10):
school because, a my job ismore flexible or your job is
more flexible, john, I can tellyou, as my partner, I will give
you the respect that I willnever assume, because you make
less money than me, that you'rethe one who has to do the tasks.
I can promise you, as a partner,that I will never say, john, in
the time it takes me to tellyou how to clean the floors,
(26:32):
I'll do it myself.
John, I can give you therespect to say, yes, we're both
nurse practitioners with PhDs,but I can find the time where I
will say you're better atfocusing on one task at a time,
so I will not give you thatopportunity.
These are all toxic messages wegive each other for why we
don't communicate about the home.
If you can hold your boundaryand say I will not say those
(26:55):
things, because those areexpectations that I have no idea
whether John actually believes,and I will come to the table
and say I value you, john, as mypartner and I know you value me
, regardless of how much money Imake, regardless of my gender,
then all of a sudden we can cometo the system and the
communication in a way that's usagainst the cards as opposed to
(27:16):
I have to fight for my leisuretime in my right against you.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
So the problem, though, becomes no matter which
partner it is, one of them islike I don't trust you to parent
, Like I don't trust you todiscipline, whether it's social
media or something else Iactually just don't trust you.
What do you do when you're inthat situation?
Like do we throw the cards outand just give up?
(27:53):
Like how does that work?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
That's a great question, john.
I think, as with everythingright, it's very futile to try
to change somebody else.
Usually.
Typically, you have to makeinternal changes for yourself.
You have to make internalchanges for yourself.
I will say that it was very,very alarming to me here at the
(28:18):
outcome of the question youasked.
When I asked a lot of womenwhat they did in those
situations, they would say to meI have three magic words for
you, eve.
I have three magic words foryou, eve, that have solved all
of my problems, and I'd beeagerly.
What are those three words thatsolved all your problems?
Often it was court order,custody or that allowed them to
have finally a full partner whenthey had somebody who was
(28:39):
taking over.
Now again, as somebody who grewup with a single mother and a
child of divorce, I was hoping Istill see, and this is the
beauty of it when I started this.
But this is the beauty of whatFair Play became.
Fair Play is sort of likedivorce or marry people, because
it leads to the same outcomesof ownership, which is really
good, without hopefully you knowthe divorce piece of you coming
(29:02):
to it, you know early enough.
But I want to just saysomething about changing
yourself and what you just said.
Hardest thing for me to hear,john, is what you just said I
don't trust my partner so I'mnot going to involve them
anymore.
It's very, very painful to hearthat, especially when there's a
child involved, typically theway it manifests is somebody
(29:24):
will say that to me.
I don't trust them anymore.
We've had these conversations.
I always end up with John notputting that extra dish back in
the sink, so I might as welljust do it myself, but I realize
it's happening there that thatperson is saying that they've
given up on communicating withthat person.
So typically I'd like for thatperson to start there.
So you're not even closegetting to the system yet.
(29:46):
You are, john and me, and we'realready educated in this work
and we just need a tune-up.
Yes, go straight to the cards,either as a way to tell your
stories or start the system.
We have tons of free resourceson our website that hopefully
John will link to in the shownote.
We have a book, we have adocumentary.
There's lots of ways toimplement the system.
(30:07):
But if you aren't there yet andJohn's question is that trust
question you have to look backat what happened to your
communication with your partner.
One thing during the pandemicreally really felt painful and
this is a story we can end onbecause it was really painful,
but I think it's reallyimportant.
There was a Facebook group.
The Facebook group was calledthe Reasons I Hate my Partner
(30:27):
During the Pandemic.
So that's what they said.
That's what this Facebook groupsaid.
Within that Facebook groupthere was a woman who says my
partner dies of COVID won't bebecause of the disease, it'll be
because of me.
So I reached out to this womanor my team did and we said hey,
can we ask you a couplequestions?
(30:48):
And what this woman said to uswas we said hey, you, we ask you
a couple questions.
And what this woman said to uswas we said hey, how do you
communicate with your partnerabout domestic life?
She said, with no irony, Idon't communicate with my
partner about domestic life.
This is my safe space, so Ijust want to reflect on that.
Quickly threatening to murderher partner in front of 27,000
(31:11):
strangers felt safer to her thancommunicating directly with her
partner.
We all get there at some point.
It felt safer to me to cry bymyself on the side of the road
and bang on my steering wheelthan to tell Seth how painful it
was to get his text.
I'm surprised you didn't getblueberries and what it meant to
(31:33):
me.
We can't let it get that bad.
You have to start investing incommunication.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Any final words for people who want to connect with
you more or want to start FairPlay.
Where do they start.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I would just say at this point just start where you
are, start where you are and themost important thing, which is
so in line with, I think, theparent message there should be
zero guilt and shame for,wherever you are, the situation
you're in the situation that wewere all put in because we have
(32:20):
a lack of structural support forparents in the United States.
So things should feel hard.
Because they are hard Doesn'tmean we can't change them.
One partnership at a time.
While you're changing things,one partnership at a time, john,
I'm fighting for all parents.
We have a Fair Play PolicyInstitute.
We are fighting for paid leave.
(32:40):
We are fighting for access tochild care, so there's no child
care deserts in this country.
We're fighting for parents.
While we do this, we can changedynamics, one partnership at a
time, and the more people cometo the table looking at their
organization through a lens ofnot 50-50 equality, partnership
(33:03):
and ownership, the better.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Thank you to Eva Rodsky for joining us for
today's episode of the WholeParent Podcast.
You can find all of her linksand resources, including to her
book Fair Play, down in theepisode description.
If you like this episode of theWhole Parent Podcast, make sure
that you go and like andsubscribe wherever you're
listening to it, and alsoconsider getting my audio book,
which came out on January 28th2025, called Punishment-Free
(33:35):
Parenting.
It's a step-by-step,brain-based guide to make
parenting a heck of a lot easier, so that you won't have to
struggle as much with thosecards as always.
If you have a person in yourlife in this case anyone,
whether they have kids or notwho's in a partnership, make
sure that you share this episodewith them personally.
Just shoot it to them in a text.
Tell them that you liked it,that you listened to it, that it
(33:59):
might help.
It's the best way that you canhelp spread this message.
See you next week.
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