December 17, 2024 • 39 mins
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Episode Description:
In this episode of the Whole Parent Podcast, Jon welcomes Dr. Marc Brackett, the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and author of Permission to Feel. Together, they dive into why emotions matter, how to raise emotionally intelligent children, and the essential skills parents need to model emotional regulation effectively.
Jon and Marc discuss the misconceptions around emotions—especially the temptation to suppress unpleasant feelings—and how these unresolved emotions often resurface in unhealthy ways. Marc shares his guiding principle of giving ourselves “permission to feel” and explains the difference between being an emotion scientist and an emotion judge. Whether you’re navigating tough parenting moments or learning to process your own feelings, this episode will equip you with practical tools for building emotional intelligence at home.
Key Takeaways:
- Why Emotions Matter:
- Emotions are critical for attention, decision-making, relationships, mental health, and overall performance.
- Suppressed emotions don’t go away—they often intensify over time.
- The Role of Emotional Intelligence:
- Developing emotional awareness and regulation starts with parents.
- Kids learn emotional intelligence when parents model vulnerability, self-reflection, and healthy coping strategies.
- Becoming an Emotion Scientist vs. Emotion Judge:
- Emotion Scientists: Curious, open, and exploratory when processing feelings.
- Emotion Judges: Critical, dismissive, and reactive to emotions.
- Marc introduces his How We Feel app to help individuals and families develop emotional awareness and vocabulary.
- Practical Regulation Strategies:
- Proactive emotional regulation (e.g., pausing at the “doorknob moment” to prepare for emotional triggers).
- Modeling emotional honesty with kids, even during challenging moments.
Other Amazing Resources from Marc:
- Book: Permission to Feel by Dr. Marc Brackett
- App: How We Feel – Free emotional intelligence app
- Web Series: Dealing with Feelings
Connect with Dr. Marc Brackett:
- Website: marcbrackett.com
- Instagram: @markbrackett
Connect with Jon and the Whole Parent Podcast:
- Instagram: @wholeparent
- Upcoming Book: Punishment-Free Parenting (January 2025)
Call to Action:
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✅ Subscribe to the podcast.
✅ Leave a 5-star rating and write a review—it helps more parents find this resource.
✅ Share this episode with a parent who would benefit from learning how
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon @wholeparent (00:16):
Welcome to the Whole Parent Podcast.
I am so excited for those ofyou who are tuning in.
I have a person who I've been afan of for a long time from a
distance, but who I'm justgetting to meet today.
It's Mark Brackett.
Dr Mark Brackett from the YaleCenter for Emotional
Intelligence.
Mark, welcome to the WholeParent Podcast.
Dr. Marc Brackett (00:33):
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here with you.
Jon @wholeparent (00:36):
Yeah, no, well , your work is so transformative
for so many parents and I thinka lot of us know your work but
we may not know that it's youwho's kind of been behind a lot
of the emotion regulation stuff.
So you, yeah, you are kind ofthe the the hero behind the
scenes.
For for me, I know thatemotional intelligence has been
(00:58):
a really big struggle for me andI definitely was one of those
people who, just in my ownparenting journey, was way more
interested or just my lifejourney way more interested in
just avoiding all of thenegative emotions.
And you know I don't often talkabout her on the podcast, but
my wife, even to a greaterextent, for her, you know, she's
a I don't know how much youknow about Enneagram, but she's
(01:19):
like an Enneagram type three andshe, she, just she feels lots
of big emotions but she's not afan.
And so when we came across yourwork and we were like, oh man,
and then we had children, whenwe had started having kids, our
first child is extremelyemotional and how do we support
and how do we do that well,instead of just kind of
squashing that down?
And a lot of it came fromunderstanding why emotions are
(01:40):
important, and so I wonder ifyou can just speak to that,
because I've talked a lot aboutthat on the podcast.
But I would love to hear yourperspective Like why emotions?
Why should we be encouragingour kids to experience, feel,
their feelings?
Dr. Marc Brackett (01:51):
Yeah, I mean that could be our whole time
together.
You know, I think it's nice tothink about.
Like what would life be likewithout emotion?
I mean we'd have no joy, we'dhave no grief.
We'd have no grief.
We'd have some people would say, okay, that's good, I don't
(02:12):
want any grief, but we'd have nopride, we'd have no excitement,
we'd have no contentment.
It would just be like DrSpock's walking across the world
and a more serious kind of wayof thinking about it.
I like to think about emotionsas being data and their
information, and so there's fivereasons I'm like a broken
record about this.
The first is an emotions driveour attention, memory and
learning.
So, for example, if yourlisteners are bored with us
(02:33):
right now, they've got seriousissues, but they're real, you
know it's.
We're not engaging them right,so we're not creating an
emotional climate on thispodcast that is making them feel
like they want to keep going.
You know listening, and soemotions are the drivers of our
attention.
So that's why it's so importantat school and at work how
(02:55):
people feel matters for wherethey pay attention.
The second is decision making.
You think about it like yourchoice of where you want your
kid to go to college.
Your choice of what you wear,it's all about feeling, it's all
about how it makes you feel.
We'd like to think of ourselvesas being these irrational
creatures, but the truth iswhether or not we get up and
(03:18):
exercise in the morning or whatwe decide to eat is often rooted
in our feelings.
The third is relationships.
I talk about emotions as beingkind of signals to either
approach or avoid.
So, for example, like when wefirst started talking, you're
like a really nice guy, you'rewarm, you're engaging, and so
it's like all right, I want totalk to this guy.
(03:39):
And there are people that Imeet and that you meet and that
your listeners meet, who kind ofhad facial expressions.
That facial expressions thatare signals like stay away, you
know, like I'm more powerfulthan you.
That's not an approach, that'san avoid, right?
So that's facial expression,it's vocal tone, it's body
language.
The fourth is just for ourphysical and mental health.
(04:00):
You know that our emotionsdrive, that so little feelings,
if they're not dealt with,become big feelings.
You know, I talk about emotionsas being, you know, these
automatic kind of experiences,and when they're intense and for
long duration, it means we haveto do something about it.
(04:20):
And if we don't have the skillsto do something about it, our
mental and physical health candecline.
The final is just performance.
You know, as someone who teachesat a very high powered
university, every one of mystudents I always say, has
higher grades than I ever hadand they have better test scores
than I ever had.
I grade their papers and youknow I just had a lot of
(04:44):
imposter syndrome when I firststarted working here, because I
just, you know, I grew up with.
You know, my father was an airconditioning repairman, my
mother had various jobs.
Neither one of them hadgraduated from college.
And here I am now working at anIvy League university.
It was just a lot of weirdfeelings and I just had this
belief system that every one ofmy students was a superstar,
(05:05):
which they kind of were on paper, but they also were all going
to be enormously successful.
Sure, and that has proven to bewrong.
And because I always joke withmy students, you know your IQ
gets you in but it doesn't getyou out.
People really want to be aroundpeople that are emotionally
intelligent, no matter how smartthey are.
People want to be around peoplethat have these skills, and so
(05:26):
those are the five reasons whyemotions matter from my
perspective.
Jon @wholeparent (05:29):
No, I love that for all of the five reasons
that Mark just identified andthe way that I talk about in the
book a couple things that Iheard just pop out in those five
reasons, and you might thinkthat you sound like a broken
record, but I've never heard youarticulate those five in that
exact way.
So it's not a broken record tome and I feel like I've heard
quite a lot from you.
The big things that I heardthat pop out to me are number
(05:51):
one unresolved emotions orunexpressed emotions, unlabeled
emotions.
These are not benign, rightLike these metastasize in us,
and the quote that I use isactually one from somebody in my
counseling program, my master'sdegree.
I had to take some counselingcourses at the School of
Professional Counseling and thetherapist who was there said if
(06:14):
you don't work through yourtrauma, your trauma works
through you.
And so I kind ofrecontextualized that and said
if you don't work through youremotions in general, your
emotions work through you.
And I think that that's thefirst piece is that people who
are terrified of being run bytheir emotions and therefore
they don't want to express theiremotions, are paradoxically way
more likely to be run by theiremotions, and I think that
(06:36):
that's a big thing for parentswho are like man, I can't figure
out why I'm always losing it onmy kid and it's like, well,
actually the reason that you'relosing it on your kid is because
you're not having any outlets,you're not getting the exercise
that you need, you're not doingall of these other things that
help with emotional regulation.
And so that was the first thingthat that just popped out to me
.
And then the second thing youmentioned and I think that this
is a really big point and I justwould love to sit here for a
(06:58):
moment is this idea that we havethis false perception that
humans are rational most of thetime, or that we're logical
creatures, that we live in ourprefrontal cortex.
And I think, at least from howI understand it and if you tell
me I'm wrong, man, I got toemail my publisher immediately,
but the way that I understand itis our brains really work much
(07:20):
quicker in our emotion centers.
Our emotions are much quicker torespond to a situation, and so
most often, what we're actuallydoing is justifying or
rationalizing our emotions orlack thereof, like we're
suppressing our emotions, we'renot thinking about things
logically and then havingemotions about those things that
we think about logically, we'reactually feeling first, and
(07:42):
that's part of the reallyimportant data that you're
talking about.
If you don't let yourself feel,then you're actually only
perceiving, you know, 10% of theworld, or something like that,
and I think that that'sessential for understanding the
performance aspect as well, ofsaying like, yeah, the most
successful people are not thepeople with the highest IQ and
Daniel Goldman says this in hiskind of mid-90s big EQ stuff.
(08:05):
Is that really?
The driver of success is howwell you communicate with people
, and I certainly see that outin the world today, or maybe I
wish I did.
Dr. Marc Brackett (08:16):
You might have to rewrite your chapter.
Just kidding, I thought I wouldjust put that out there.
I'm just kidding.
Good, good, good.
What you say makes a lot ofsense.
You know, I think bifurcatingour emotional life from our
cognitive life is tough, right,because, you know, it creates a
feeling.
You have a feeling, it makesyou think a certain way.
So I would just keep it broaderthan that.
(08:37):
You know, sometimes I'm justlike sitting around, you know,
and I'm like a memory of myfather or mother who have passed
pops into my mind and all of asudden I had that feeling of
nostalgia this past weekend.
You know, I have two brothersand we're very close but we
don't see each other a lot.
They took the train up to myhouse and we spent the weekend
together.
We had a great time and we werereminiscing, and that
(08:59):
reminiscing led to lots offeelings about our upbringing
and our relationships and ourparents.
And you're also I mean you'reright about the idea that I
think the hardest piece is thatoftentimes people have been
taught that emotions make youweak and that when you're having
strong, unpleasant feelings,the job that you have is to
(09:21):
ignore, deny, repress, suppress,which goes back to what you
were saying, which doesn't workfor you.
That's why we eat the things wedon't want to eat, it's why we
don't get enough sleep or goodsleep, it's why we drink too
much alcohol, it's why we blowup with our friends, it's why we
can't say I love you to someonein a beautiful, in a way that
(09:41):
makes them feel loved, orapologize, or apologize or ask
for forgiveness, Because we havethese feelings about our
feelings also, which is a wholenother concept of called meta
emotions.
As a kid, you know, when I wasbeing bullied terribly, I was
feeling shame for a variety ofreasons, but my father was that
(10:04):
kind of tough guy who was, youknow, toughen up son, and so I
was also afraid to tell myfather about my bullying,
because there's just layers andlayers of emotion, and the point
of all that is that we need tohave a new attitude about
emotion, and because our beliefsabout feelings drive what we do
(10:27):
with our feelings, and so Ithink you're in the same boat as
I am, which is that emotionsare data, they're information,
they're everyday experiences.
Let's embrace them, let's lovethem all and let's learn how to
use them wisely so that we canhave good relationships and make
good decisions and have ourdreams come true.
Jon @wholeparent (10:46):
Yeah, and I think that this is I mean,
that's actually I mean I'vestarted to now that I've done
the page person like giving awaytoo much about the book and
people aren't going to buy itbecause they're just like, ah, I
just heard it on the podcast.
But I think that this isactually a really good point
that, like so the chapter titleis emotions are your superpower,
and it's because of thisconcept of all, emotions are
data that we can use in ourlives to actually make better
(11:07):
decisions, to have betterrelationships, and that if we
don't leverage that, that we arejust leaving data on the table
and we're just saying, hey, I'mgoing to make my decisions,
avoid of the best availableinput that my body, my physical
body, is giving me, physicalbody is giving me.
And I think that this is areally yeah, I that was probably
(11:27):
the biggest thing that I'vetaken away from your work, and I
quote you in the book as sayingyou know the difference between
being an emotion scientist andan emotion judge, and I I think
a lot of people don't understandwhat a scientist is, and so I
adjusted a little bit to say anemotions detective, because I
think people have a really clearidea that like an detective is
like a person who'sinvestigating things, but people
don't often realize that ascientist is actually.
(11:47):
That's your term is actuallymore true, right?
Detectives actually do comeinto things, oftentimes trying
to prove something right Versusthe scientist in the best way,
the scientific method isexpressed as yeah, you know what
if I'm right or I'm wrong,those are both good pieces of
information.
Like those both teach mesomething about the world, and
(12:08):
so can you speak to that alittle bit Like why is it so
important that we teach not onlyourselves but also our kids to
become people who are emotionscientists instead of emotion
judges?
Dr. Marc Brackett (12:18):
Yeah, I want to take a step back first, which
is, you know, I have theseguiding principles to my work
and you know, as you mentioned,the title of my book is
permission to feel, and I thinkit's important to start there,
meaning that I feel like thefirst goal that we have to have
for ourselves and for ourchildren is we have to give
ourselves and we have to giveour kids permission to feel.
(12:42):
And what I mean by that is thatwe just have to acknowledge
that we are feelings creaturesand that our emotions are
driving all aspects of our livesand that, whether it's
happiness or anxiety, orserenity or despair, that is
(13:02):
life.
And we're going to giveourselves and we're going to
give our kids the permission tohave all those feelings.
And then, once we have thatpermission and I say people give
me a little bit of pushback onthat whole thing who are you to
give me permission to feel?
Well, the truth is and you knowthis is probably from reading
my book I had a pretty toughchildhood.
You know, I had abuse in mychildhood sexual abuse and a lot
(13:26):
of bullying from a neighbor whothat was the abuse and then
bullying in school, and I didnot have a happy childhood, and
I grew up in a family where mymother was having kind of
nervous breakdowns all the timeand my father was the toughen up
guy.
And so here I was, at five, six,seven, eight, nine, 10 years
old, being terribly abused andnot feeling good Like I could
(13:50):
tell anybody about my experience.
That's a parent's worstnightmare, just to tell you for
the most part, and it's also theworst nightmare for a child
right to have to be livingthrough horrific circumstances
and not feel like they can sayhey mom, hey dad, this is
happening, I'm scared or I feeldisgust or whatever.
(14:12):
It is Right.
And I say that just because Ijust feel it's so important for
people to recognize thesesignals and I know that I was
emitting signals as a child Helpme, I'm not happy, something is
wrong.
But because of my parents' ownchallenges with their own
emotional lives, they miss thosesignals.
And so I just I have to saythat, whether it's uncomfortable
(14:35):
or not for people, and so wehave to be a step ahead of our
kids in terms of creating theconditions for them to be their
true, full feeling selves, andwe can't do that until we are
for ourselves.
It's really hard to do that forour kids when we don't do that
for ourselves?
Jon @wholeparent (14:52):
Yeah, I think Brene Brown even says that's
impossible, right Like BreneBrown even goes as far as to say
, like you cannot give your kidswhat you cannot give yourself,
and I think that that's yeah.
Sorry, I didn't mean tointerrupt that, I just think
that's such a good.
that's like a foundationalprinciple.
And I think that that's whereso many parenting related voices
do miss is that they are sofocused on the child and what's
(15:16):
happening in the child and howto correct the behavior in the
child, how to prepare the childfor resilience or for the long
term, or that they fundamentallymiss.
And what your experience kindof speaks to is your parents
would not have allowed for thatto happen but because of their
own stuff they had no knowledgeor awareness.
Dr. Marc Brackett (15:37):
They weren't attentive to my emotional needs,
they didn't ask questions, theydidn't notice.
You know the signals.
It's hard to notice, and whenyou're anxious yourself and
you're kind of like freaking outevery day, worrying about your
own survival, or you're angry atthe world, you know you're not
looking for these details, youmiss the details.
That's why we need an emotionalintelligence, because how do
(15:57):
you pause and pay attention andprocess and respond accordingly?
But you really asked thequestion about the emotion
scientist versus the emotionjudge, and so you see what I'm
getting at, though.
The permission to feel is kindof the foundation, like just
allowing ourselves to feel andallowing our kids to feel, and
then we have to become curiousexplorers of those feelings, our
(16:20):
own and other people's.
We have to know like what am Ireally feeling?
Why am I feeling this way?
Am I feeling sad or am Ifeeling hopeless?
Am I feeling happy or am Iecstatic?
Am I down or disappointed?
Am I angry, frustrated,overwhelmed or panicky?
And you know, obviously youknow that I'm a big emotion
vocabulary guy which I have toplug.
Just a quick aside my new app Idon't know if you've seen it
(16:43):
yet, but it's called how we Feel.
Jon @wholeparent (16:45):
I have not seen it yet.
Okay, I'm downloading this likeas soon as we get off this how
to Feel, and it's a related toemotional how we feel.
Okay, I'll try and I think Ihave a way in the show notes to
have people have a direct link,whether they have a google or
it's on both okay, I think I cando that great.
Dr. Marc Brackett (17:04):
Well, you can just find it.
It's called how we feel and itwas co-developed with the
co-founder and former ceo ofpinterest.
So ben silverman and I and ourteams worked on this for three
years and we have about amillion people who use the app
and it's really.
I mean, I don't want to bragabout an app that I built
because I feel like it's alittle off, but I'm bragging
(17:25):
about it.
It's really freaking cool.
It's beautifully designed 144emotions that you can choose
from with the words.
It's got about 40evidence-based regulation
strategies built into it thatpeople can practice.
You can track your emotionsover time and look for patterns
at home, at school, at work.
So check it out.
Jon @wholeparent (17:43):
Mark, how did I not know about this?
This is the coolest thing.
Dr. Marc Brackett (17:47):
I was not prepared.
Jon @wholeparent (17:51):
I was not prepared, wait.
So this app has has a hundredand you said 144, or roughly 144
, emotions.
Dr. Marc Brackett (17:59):
Actually, it has more than that it has 144 on
the interface and then, if youdo, you can actually search for
another 500 feelings.
Jon @wholeparent (18:06):
This is so good.
So, like most adults and thisis, you know I'm I usually don't
like quote one person so much,but Brene Brown, again, atlas of
the Heart, which I'm sureyou've read and is very, very
well-versed.
It's kind of the layperson'sversion of an emotional
vocabulary.
Right In that book she talksabout how most adults are
(18:26):
experiencing basically a halfdozen emotions at most, emotions
at most.
And so to have a place whereyou can go and, in your ruler
framework, actually be able toaccurately label which is such a
profound coping mechanism inand of itself, I mean that's a
regulation strategy.
But then you have on top ofthat another, you know three
dozen regulation strategies thatyou can do as well.
(18:46):
That's super, super cool.
Dr. Marc Brackett (18:48):
So that was my little side plug for the app,
which, by the way, will alwaysbe available for free.
There's a special fund that wascreated, so it'll always be
free, so cool.
But going back to, so I'm goingto just bring people back to
where we're at.
We're going to give ourselvesand everyone we love, and even
the people we don't love thatmuch, permission to feel.
We're going to strive to beemotion scientists, be curious
(19:10):
explorers, as opposed tocritical judges.
So what does that look like?
Well, the emotion scientistsays tell me more, I'm curious.
You know, what I'm hearing yousay is that you're frustrated,
but from my frustration is abouta goal being blocked, and what
I'm hearing is an injustice inyour story.
So it sounds like you might befeeling angry.
Jon @wholeparent (19:31):
Yeah, anger.
Dr. Marc Brackett (19:32):
And, importantly, the emotion
scientist recognizes thatfailure is inevitable.
So I talk about this endlesslybecause, you know, this next
book I work is strictly onemotion regulation, and so I've
been like thinking about emotionregulation for three years now
and let me tell you, my family'sbeen thinking about it too and
they've been witnessing mydysregulation from writing the
(19:55):
freaking book Because, like, ifI'm not getting the words out
that I want to get out, it'severybody else's fault.
Just so you know.
It's unbelievable.
Jon @wholeparent (20:03):
That's helpful .
Can I just take a?
I know that we just keepgetting sidetracked.
That's so helpful to hear that,like Mark Brackett, this is one
of the things that I try and doall the time is talk about like
if you saw me in Target notusing any of my parenting hacks
and just like you know beinglike, just get my friggin cart
like to my kid, like you wouldrealize that, like, parenting is
(20:23):
definitely the marathon, notthe sprint.
But to hear that Mark Brackettgets dysregulated and then
misplaces his frustration as youknow anger at other people or
whatever dysregulation justmakes me feel so good about my
own dysregulation.
Dr. Marc Brackett (20:40):
Can I just say that I'm happy to share my.
Jon @wholeparent (20:42):
It was just like it's just such a human
thing.
It's just such a human thingand I think that, like one of
the downsides of the socialmedia you know, generation,
whatever you want to call it isthat we have this picture that
some people haven't figured out.
And the truth is, the more youdig into the people like you who
are actually on the ground,doing the research kind of, some
people might be more advancedbecause of practice and
(21:05):
journaling and using your app,but not like nobody's perfect
and failure is inevitable.
Dr. Marc Brackett (21:12):
I will tell you I'm way better at dealing
with my emotions today than Iwas five years ago, 10 years ago
, 15 years ago.
Way better.
I know more strategies, I'vepracticed more strategies, but
when I get triggered, you knowat home, and it's a rough one.
There are days where I'm likeMark, take your moment, mark,
(21:33):
take a breath, walk out of theroom, say kind things to
yourself.
Remember this feeling isimpermanent.
And then I walk back to them.
I'm like, if I have to tell youone more time, I'm like Mark,
what are you doing right now?
And it's like in that momentI'm just like forget it, but who
cares that?
I'm the director of a centerfor freaking emotional
intelligence.
Jon @wholeparent (21:53):
Anyway, it's, you gotta give yourself
permission to feel, Mark.
You gotta give yourselfpermission to feel in those
moments.
Dr. Marc Brackett (21:59):
my man A permission to feel doesn't give
you permission to be a jerk.
Yes, yes.
Jon @wholeparent (22:06):
Good point.
Dr. Marc Brackett (22:11):
My goal is to prevent myself from being as
nasty as I could be.
Sure, and I've gotten a lotbetter and we can all get better
at it and it is life's work andI just think that's it's very
relieving for people because,like you said not that I'm some
like guru, you know aboutemotions, but you know I'm a
(22:31):
scientist who's writtencurriculum for 30 years and
written books and practice it,and I'm still struggling.
And so I always think to myselfgosh mark, if you're still
struggling, like good luck forthe rest of the world, yeah, but
the rest of the world needs tojust learn more practice, more
refine and you get better.
Jon @wholeparent (22:50):
But you're never going to be perfect,
that's okay you know, practicemakes better, practice makes
better and I think that that's,you know, with an emotion, being
an emotion scientist, like evenin that, there are moments when
all of us aspire to be.
For those of us who are awareof this paradigm and of course
I'm sure that you would agreewith this, none of us are all or
(23:12):
none right Like.
This is variations of gray.
We're not always an emotionscientist, we're not always an
emotion judge.
This is just a paradigm thathelps us frame our own emotional
intelligence.
But, like, we all exist on thiscontinuum where, when life is
hard, when we're triggered, when, you know, I've also lost my
dad and it's we're coming up onthe anniversary, you know, I
just start to get a little bitless patient with my kids.
(23:35):
I start to get a little bitless emotionally aware with my
spouse.
Like those, I realize thatsometimes the best I can do is
kind of being in the middle.
Dr. Marc Brackett (23:46):
You know, the best example I have for that is
, my mother-in-law got stuckhere during the pandemic.
It was unexpected.
She came up from Panama for awedding and a very close friend
of mine, who she likes, wasgetting married on March 3rd of
2020.
Little did we know that noflights to Panama would occur.
(24:07):
She was going to stay till likeMarch 15th.
On March 13th, all the airlinesshut down and they didn't open
up to go to Panama untilSeptember.
So April, may, june, july, andit was like you know, I love her
, she's great, I speak Spanishso we can communicate well.
But let me tell you, by April15th I was like what is
(24:28):
happening?
And then we had a real familyblow up and she yelled at me and
I yelled at her and she saidnasty things and I said them
back and then I did go to bedthat night and going back to
this joke about you know myprofession, I'm like walking up
to my bedroom thinking, mark,you're the freaking director of
a center for emotionalintelligence, like you are a
terrible, terrible role model.
(24:50):
So let's do some scientificinvestigation here.
Let's go to bed and let's askyourself some questions what's
going on?
I hated being at home.
I didn't like working from home.
Two my mother-in-law was alittle codependent.
You know she didn't want tomake her own coffee in the
morning.
She wanted me to make hercoffee.
I'm like you know you learn howto make your own coffee.
I don't like people in themorning.
(25:11):
I'm not a morning.
You know.
Make your own coffee.
I don't like people in themorning.
I'm not a morning.
We're going to work on that.
Three is I'm always traveling.
I travel 50% of the time andthat was like a long time I
hadn't been traveling and I'mlike the routine was like
monotonous.
I wasn't going to my hot yogaclass, like all these things,
and but I had a pause to justgain an understanding of what
were all the reasons, all thethings that were behind my
(25:35):
unpleasant emotions.
And then I had to set a goal,you know, which is how do I want
to be seen by my mother-in-law?
Sure, how do I want to beexperienced by my mother-in-law.
And that really helped.
And you know, I walked down thenext morning and made her a cup
of coffee and I just I shiftedmy brain.
I had a new attitude, and I'mgoing to tell you something that
I think is helpful for peopleis I started making emotion
(25:58):
regulation a game.
I love that and a creativeprocess, and so I started
thinking to myself, like Mark,you're going to come up with the
most fun ways of dealing withyour mother-in-law's emotions,
or you're going to figure out away to like not be so freaking
narcissistic.
You know, and actually realizethat, like do you think she's 81
(26:20):
years old?
I think she wants to be trappedin your house with you.
Like let's get real here Forsure.
For sure.
Anyhow, my point behind allthis is that I started like I'd
go for walks and before I'd comeinto my home, I would grab the
doorknob and I would pause andsay, Mark, how do you want to
show up tonight?
And that would help me get intothe right frame of mind to be
(26:40):
the person I wanted to be.
And then I would strategize,you know, just start thinking
what do you need to do?
What do you need to show upthat way?
All right, you need a longerwalk today.
You need to reframe, you needto take a few deep breaths, you
need to be curious about herlife instead of just so focused
on your life.
Jon @wholeparent (26:56):
So yeah, I think, yeah, we're, we're, I
think I, I I'm sure I've heardyou say something to this effect
, but one of the things thatI've been lamenting on social
media lately is that the way inwhich I get the most engagement
interaction from parents is byparent telling parents what to
do in the responsive moment,like when your kid does this
(27:21):
dysregulated thing.
What should you do?
And what I've been lamenting tothe very few people who
actually see the videos thataren't viral, which is one of
those things right is you know,most of the best parenting we do
is actually proactive, notreactive.
What I'm hearing from you isthat the real work of emotional
intelligence is not what you doin the moment.
(27:42):
It's not what you do when yourkid starts hitting, starts
biting, starts, whatever right.
When your teenager has a mentalhealth crisis, it's actually in
the preparation.
Like it's really easy forparents to prioritize mental
illness when they're sitting inan ER.
It's really hard for those sameparents to prioritize mental
(28:04):
health and mental illness whentheir child's seven and showing
no signs of anxiety, depression,even though they know,
statistically speaking, likethere has never been a time in
recorded history when teenagershave greater mental health risk.
How do we actually start tobecome proactive in how we're
(28:25):
teaching emotion regulation?
How do we become people whostand at the doorknob whenever
that is in our lives and say,okay, how am I going to respond
to my kid when not, if theytrigger me today?
Am I going to respond to my kidwhen not, if they trigger me
today?
How do you?
You know, like know, whenyou're standing at the doorknob,
(28:46):
whatever that place is, whenyou're drinking a cup of coffee
in the morning?
What are my strategies, whatare my go-tos?
And so you've already said theapp as we wrap here in the next
two to three minutes.
How can we connect with you andlearn how to be proactive
emotion scientists, to beprepare ourselves before we're
triggered, to become emotionscientists with our kids and
teach our kids to do the same?
Dr. Marc Brackett (29:05):
yeah, I appreciate that setup.
Here's the thing when you havea mindset as an interventionist,
right, you're always waitingfor the bad thing to happen to
fix.
When you're a preventionscientist, which is what I like
to call myself, you're thinkingabout what needs to happen to
fix.
When you're a preventionscientist, which is what I like
to call myself, you're thinkingabout what needs to happen in
advance to reduce the number ofnew cases that go into the
(29:25):
system.
Let's say it's the prisonsystem, let's say it's the
mental health system, let's sayit's every system.
And it's always morecost-effective.
It's always easier forourselves and others.
When we think prevention, thechallenge is that we have not
raised the skills of emotionalintelligence high enough that
(29:46):
people pay attention to themearly on.
Right, we're still obsessed ineducation with literacy and math
and other subject areas whichare important.
But I'm not going to sleepuntil emotional intelligence
becomes the other side of thereport card, because it's
critical that we start teachingchildren these skills as early
(30:06):
as possible.
Everyone, it's a human right tobe self-aware.
It's a human right to haveskills that you need to navigate
your emotional life, becauseyou can't have a life worth
living if you can't deal withyour emotions.
It's just you struggle way toomuch and it's not fair when it
can be prevented.
So you know, I always say thatwhen I, if I do workshops for
(30:29):
families which I do quite a bitof them if I call it how to
raise an emotionally intelligentchild who gets into an Ivy
League university, 5,000 peopleshow up.
If I call it how to become anemotionally intelligent parent,
two people show up and it'sagain.
You know, it's always aboutlike the teachers think about
I'm adopting a curriculum tomake the kids learn something.
(30:52):
The parents think I'm readingthis book to teach this to my
kid, and the real challenge isthat people haven't worked on
themselves first.
And so for me, you know, myrecommendation to your listeners
is ask yourself do you reallygive yourself permission to feel
?
Do you give your kid thepermission to feel?
(31:14):
Are you the scientist or thejudge with your kid?
If you have multiple children,are you a scientist with one of
your kids and a judge with theother?
Are there certain days of theweek where you're more
judgmental?
Are there certain emotions thatyou're more judgmental about?
And then I think the big one,based on where we went today
with our conversation, is areyou the best possible role model
(31:35):
for your child in terms ofhealthy regulation, best
possible role model for yourchild in terms of healthy
regulation.
So when you come home from workand you're frustrated, do you
say, like leave me alone.
Or do you just go into thekitchen or the bathroom or your
room and lock the door and justsay, you know, daddy needs time?
Or do you come home and say,you know, son, you know daddy
had a rough day at work and Iactually said something that was
mean to a colleague of mine andI feel terrible about it, and
(31:59):
so I may look a little offtonight and I just want you to
know it has nothing to do withyou.
I said I'm really upset withmyself and I'm trying to figure
out what I'm going to say tothis colleague of mine tomorrow
to fix the situation, cause Ijust don't want to have that in
my relationships.
And so I just want you to knowthat honey and I need about 15
minutes to myself just to getmyself kind of make that
(32:20):
transition home, and then we'regoing to go outside and take our
walk or do something together.
And so in that moment what I'vedone is I've shown I'm
vulnerable, I show I care aboutpeople, I've shown that I'm
introspective, I problem solve,I mean, the list goes on, and so
(32:41):
that's my final recommendationfor people that listen to your
work is that it sounds like it'sa lot of work.
It's a lot of work when youdon't know what it is, but once
you know what it is, you canstart thinking about the kind of
bite-sized practices that youcan employ.
You know, as in at home, youknow and everywhere else.
Jon @wholeparent (32:58):
Right, all right, mark, where can we find
you?
Yeah, this has been such afruitful conversation.
You know if I very rarely likeplug my book, but one of the one
of the foundational principlesof what has become the book
Punishment, free Parenting,which comes out in January, is
that most of our good disciplineis done by modeling.
So you really put the ball on atee.
(33:19):
There you go.
Well you put the ball on a teethere.
Yeah, I know my four likepillars of parenting.
I won't give you all four, butone of the four is modeling.
So yeah, put the ball on thetee for me.
But you know people are goingto know where to find my stuff
because they're listening tothis podcast.
But where can we find yourstuff?
Dr. Marc Brackett (33:39):
your stuff.
How can we get in touch?
You know I'm on all the socialmedia channels.
That easy to find me, likeInstagram is, you know, I guess
the one I'm primarily on, whichis just at markbracket, and my
website is markbracketcom.
It's M-A-R-C-B-R-A-C-K-E-T-Tcom.
Two other things is you knowwell, three things.
One is obviously, my book isPermission to Feel.
The app is called how we Feeland then, because all I do is
(34:02):
stuff with feelings, I have thisnew web series where I
interview the leading experts aswell as artists to learn about
how they deal with the feelings,and it's called Dealing with
Feelings on YouTube.
And so I'm delighted for peopleto participate in all those
things.
Jon @wholeparent (34:18):
Fantastic.
All of those resources will belinked in the show notes for
anybody who's listening to this.
Wherever you're finding it, youwill find those resources
linked below.
Mark, thank you so much for allof your time today.
You were so generous with usand, yeah, let's go give
ourselves the permission to feel.
Thank you again to Mark forbeing on the podcast today.
I just wanted to say, if youhave not followed his work yet,
(34:38):
make sure that you go find hisstuff in the show notes.
Get his book Permission to Feel.
I know that he's going to haveanother book coming out soon.
Obviously, we're going to haveto have him back on the podcast
to talk about that work.
Obviously, all the stuff hedoes for the Yale Center for
Emotional Intelligence as well.
Make sure that you'reinteracting, engaging in that.
His work is something that Ireference as much as any other
individual person in my upcomingbook.
(35:00):
It comes out in January of 2025.
We talked about it a little bithere, but, yeah, I just want to
say thank you, mark.
You're one of my heroes.
Thank you so much for sharingwith all of us and, if you love
this episode and you love thetypes of guests that we're able
to get on the Whole ParentPodcast.
Make sure that you like this,that you subscribe to this
podcast.
Make sure that you write areview.
Your reviews are how I knowthat these podcasts are not just
(35:21):
going out into the abyss.
That they're helping you.
They're helping you to parentmore effectively, that they're
helping you to understand yourchild's brain and their emotions
and build emotional regulationand build emotional intelligence
with your child.
All of that, if you want, ifyou love this, make sure that
you are letting me know that Iread every single review that I
get and rating the show fivestars so that you can get out to
(35:41):
as many parents as possible.
Until then, this is all we havefor you on this episode.
Thank you again, mark of theWhole Parent Podcast.
Welcome to the Whole Parent Podcast.
I am so excited for those ofyou who are tuning in.
I have a person who I've been afan of for a long time from a
distance, but who I'm justgetting to meet today.
It's Mark Brackett.
Dr Mark Brackett from the YaleCenter for Emotional
Intelligence.
Mark, welcome to the WholeParent Podcast.
Dr. Marc Brackett (00:33):
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here with you.
Jon @wholeparent (00:36):
Yeah, no, well , your work is so transformative
for so many parents and I thinka lot of us know your work but
we may not know that it's youwho's kind of been behind a lot
of the emotion regulation stuff.
So you, yeah, you are kind ofthe the the hero behind the
scenes.
For for me, I know thatemotional intelligence has been
(00:58):
a really big struggle for me andI definitely was one of those
people who, just in my ownparenting journey, was way more
interested or just my lifejourney way more interested in
just avoiding all of thenegative emotions.
And you know I don't often talkabout her on the podcast, but
my wife, even to a greaterextent, for her, you know, she's
a I don't know how much youknow about Enneagram, but she's
(01:19):
like an Enneagram type three andshe, she, just she feels lots
of big emotions but she's not afan.
And so when we came across yourwork and we were like, oh man,
and then we had children, whenwe had started having kids, our
first child is extremelyemotional and how do we support
and how do we do that well,instead of just kind of
squashing that down?
And a lot of it came fromunderstanding why emotions are
(01:40):
important, and so I wonder ifyou can just speak to that,
because I've talked a lot aboutthat on the podcast.
But I would love to hear yourperspective Like why emotions?
Why should we be encouragingour kids to experience, feel,
their feelings?
Dr. Marc Brackett (01:51):
Yeah, I mean that could be our whole time
together.
You know, I think it's nice tothink about.
Like what would life be likewithout emotion?
I mean we'd have no joy, we'dhave no grief.
We'd have no grief.
We'd have some people would say, okay, that's good, I don't
(02:12):
want any grief, but we'd have nopride, we'd have no excitement,
we'd have no contentment.
It would just be like DrSpock's walking across the world
and a more serious kind of wayof thinking about it.
I like to think about emotionsas being data and their
information, and so there's fivereasons I'm like a broken
record about this.
The first is an emotions driveour attention, memory and
learning.
So, for example, if yourlisteners are bored with us
(02:33):
right now, they've got seriousissues, but they're real, you
know it's.
We're not engaging them right,so we're not creating an
emotional climate on thispodcast that is making them feel
like they want to keep going.
You know listening, and soemotions are the drivers of our
attention.
So that's why it's so importantat school and at work how
(02:55):
people feel matters for wherethey pay attention.
The second is decision making.
You think about it like yourchoice of where you want your
kid to go to college.
Your choice of what you wear,it's all about feeling, it's all
about how it makes you feel.
We'd like to think of ourselvesas being these irrational
creatures, but the truth iswhether or not we get up and
(03:18):
exercise in the morning or whatwe decide to eat is often rooted
in our feelings.
The third is relationships.
I talk about emotions as beingkind of signals to either
approach or avoid.
So, for example, like when wefirst started talking, you're
like a really nice guy, you'rewarm, you're engaging, and so
it's like all right, I want totalk to this guy.
(03:39):
And there are people that Imeet and that you meet and that
your listeners meet, who kind ofhad facial expressions.
That facial expressions thatare signals like stay away, you
know, like I'm more powerfulthan you.
That's not an approach, that'san avoid, right?
So that's facial expression,it's vocal tone, it's body
language.
The fourth is just for ourphysical and mental health.
(04:00):
You know that our emotionsdrive, that so little feelings,
if they're not dealt with,become big feelings.
You know, I talk about emotionsas being, you know, these
automatic kind of experiences,and when they're intense and for
long duration, it means we haveto do something about it.
(04:20):
And if we don't have the skillsto do something about it, our
mental and physical health candecline.
The final is just performance.
You know, as someone who teachesat a very high powered
university, every one of mystudents I always say, has
higher grades than I ever hadand they have better test scores
than I ever had.
I grade their papers and youknow I just had a lot of
(04:44):
imposter syndrome when I firststarted working here, because I
just, you know, I grew up with.
You know, my father was an airconditioning repairman, my
mother had various jobs.
Neither one of them hadgraduated from college.
And here I am now working at anIvy League university.
It was just a lot of weirdfeelings and I just had this
belief system that every one ofmy students was a superstar,
(05:05):
which they kind of were on paper, but they also were all going
to be enormously successful.
Sure, and that has proven to bewrong.
And because I always joke withmy students, you know your IQ
gets you in but it doesn't getyou out.
People really want to be aroundpeople that are emotionally
intelligent, no matter how smartthey are.
People want to be around peoplethat have these skills, and so
(05:26):
those are the five reasons whyemotions matter from my
perspective.
Jon @wholeparent (05:29):
No, I love that for all of the five reasons
that Mark just identified andthe way that I talk about in the
book a couple things that Iheard just pop out in those five
reasons, and you might thinkthat you sound like a broken
record, but I've never heard youarticulate those five in that
exact way.
So it's not a broken record tome and I feel like I've heard
quite a lot from you.
The big things that I heardthat pop out to me are number
(05:51):
one unresolved emotions orunexpressed emotions, unlabeled
emotions.
These are not benign, rightLike these metastasize in us,
and the quote that I use isactually one from somebody in my
counseling program, my master'sdegree.
I had to take some counselingcourses at the School of
Professional Counseling and thetherapist who was there said if
(06:14):
you don't work through yourtrauma, your trauma works
through you.
And so I kind ofrecontextualized that and said
if you don't work through youremotions in general, your
emotions work through you.
And I think that that's thefirst piece is that people who
are terrified of being run bytheir emotions and therefore
they don't want to express theiremotions, are paradoxically way
more likely to be run by theiremotions, and I think that
(06:36):
that's a big thing for parentswho are like man, I can't figure
out why I'm always losing it onmy kid and it's like, well,
actually the reason that you'relosing it on your kid is because
you're not having any outlets,you're not getting the exercise
that you need, you're not doingall of these other things that
help with emotional regulation.
And so that was the first thingthat that just popped out to me
.
And then the second thing youmentioned and I think that this
is a really big point and I justwould love to sit here for a
(06:58):
moment is this idea that we havethis false perception that
humans are rational most of thetime, or that we're logical
creatures, that we live in ourprefrontal cortex.
And I think, at least from howI understand it and if you tell
me I'm wrong, man, I got toemail my publisher immediately,
but the way that I understand itis our brains really work much
(07:20):
quicker in our emotion centers.
Our emotions are much quicker torespond to a situation, and so
most often, what we're actuallydoing is justifying or
rationalizing our emotions orlack thereof, like we're
suppressing our emotions, we'renot thinking about things
logically and then havingemotions about those things that
we think about logically, we'reactually feeling first, and
(07:42):
that's part of the reallyimportant data that you're
talking about.
If you don't let yourself feel,then you're actually only
perceiving, you know, 10% of theworld, or something like that,
and I think that that'sessential for understanding the
performance aspect as well, ofsaying like, yeah, the most
successful people are not thepeople with the highest IQ and
Daniel Goldman says this in hiskind of mid-90s big EQ stuff.
(08:05):
Is that really?
The driver of success is howwell you communicate with people
, and I certainly see that outin the world today, or maybe I
wish I did.
Dr. Marc Brackett (08:16):
You might have to rewrite your chapter.
Just kidding, I thought I wouldjust put that out there.
I'm just kidding.
Good, good, good.
What you say makes a lot ofsense.
You know, I think bifurcatingour emotional life from our
cognitive life is tough, right,because, you know, it creates a
feeling.
You have a feeling, it makesyou think a certain way.
So I would just keep it broaderthan that.
(08:37):
You know, sometimes I'm justlike sitting around, you know,
and I'm like a memory of myfather or mother who have passed
pops into my mind and all of asudden I had that feeling of
nostalgia this past weekend.
You know, I have two brothersand we're very close but we
don't see each other a lot.
They took the train up to myhouse and we spent the weekend
together.
We had a great time and we werereminiscing, and that
(08:59):
reminiscing led to lots offeelings about our upbringing
and our relationships and ourparents.
And you're also I mean you'reright about the idea that I
think the hardest piece is thatoftentimes people have been
taught that emotions make youweak and that when you're having
strong, unpleasant feelings,the job that you have is to
(09:21):
ignore, deny, repress, suppress,which goes back to what you
were saying, which doesn't workfor you.
That's why we eat the things wedon't want to eat, it's why we
don't get enough sleep or goodsleep, it's why we drink too
much alcohol, it's why we blowup with our friends, it's why we
can't say I love you to someonein a beautiful, in a way that
(09:41):
makes them feel loved, orapologize, or apologize or ask
for forgiveness, Because we havethese feelings about our
feelings also, which is a wholenother concept of called meta
emotions.
As a kid, you know, when I wasbeing bullied terribly, I was
feeling shame for a variety ofreasons, but my father was that
(10:04):
kind of tough guy who was, youknow, toughen up son, and so I
was also afraid to tell myfather about my bullying,
because there's just layers andlayers of emotion, and the point
of all that is that we need tohave a new attitude about
emotion, and because our beliefsabout feelings drive what we do
(10:27):
with our feelings, and so Ithink you're in the same boat as
I am, which is that emotionsare data, they're information,
they're everyday experiences.
Let's embrace them, let's lovethem all and let's learn how to
use them wisely so that we canhave good relationships and make
good decisions and have ourdreams come true.
Jon @wholeparent (10:46):
Yeah, and I think that this is I mean,
that's actually I mean I'vestarted to now that I've done
the page person like giving awaytoo much about the book and
people aren't going to buy itbecause they're just like, ah, I
just heard it on the podcast.
But I think that this isactually a really good point
that, like so the chapter titleis emotions are your superpower,
and it's because of thisconcept of all, emotions are
data that we can use in ourlives to actually make better
(11:07):
decisions, to have betterrelationships, and that if we
don't leverage that, that we arejust leaving data on the table
and we're just saying, hey, I'mgoing to make my decisions,
avoid of the best availableinput that my body, my physical
body, is giving me, physicalbody is giving me.
And I think that this is areally yeah, I that was probably
(11:27):
the biggest thing that I'vetaken away from your work, and I
quote you in the book as sayingyou know the difference between
being an emotion scientist andan emotion judge, and I I think
a lot of people don't understandwhat a scientist is, and so I
adjusted a little bit to say anemotions detective, because I
think people have a really clearidea that like an detective is
like a person who'sinvestigating things, but people
don't often realize that ascientist is actually.
(11:47):
That's your term is actuallymore true, right?
Detectives actually do comeinto things, oftentimes trying
to prove something right Versusthe scientist in the best way,
the scientific method isexpressed as yeah, you know what
if I'm right or I'm wrong,those are both good pieces of
information.
Like those both teach mesomething about the world, and
(12:08):
so can you speak to that alittle bit Like why is it so
important that we teach not onlyourselves but also our kids to
become people who are emotionscientists instead of emotion
judges?
Dr. Marc Brackett (12:18):
Yeah, I want to take a step back first, which
is, you know, I have theseguiding principles to my work
and you know, as you mentioned,the title of my book is
permission to feel, and I thinkit's important to start there,
meaning that I feel like thefirst goal that we have to have
for ourselves and for ourchildren is we have to give
ourselves and we have to giveour kids permission to feel.
(12:42):
And what I mean by that is thatwe just have to acknowledge
that we are feelings creaturesand that our emotions are
driving all aspects of our livesand that, whether it's
happiness or anxiety, orserenity or despair, that is
(13:02):
life.
And we're going to giveourselves and we're going to
give our kids the permission tohave all those feelings.
And then, once we have thatpermission and I say people give
me a little bit of pushback onthat whole thing who are you to
give me permission to feel?
Well, the truth is and you knowthis is probably from reading
my book I had a pretty toughchildhood.
You know, I had abuse in mychildhood sexual abuse and a lot
(13:26):
of bullying from a neighbor whothat was the abuse and then
bullying in school, and I didnot have a happy childhood, and
I grew up in a family where mymother was having kind of
nervous breakdowns all the timeand my father was the toughen up
guy.
And so here I was, at five, six,seven, eight, nine, 10 years
old, being terribly abused andnot feeling good Like I could
(13:50):
tell anybody about my experience.
That's a parent's worstnightmare, just to tell you for
the most part, and it's also theworst nightmare for a child
right to have to be livingthrough horrific circumstances
and not feel like they can sayhey mom, hey dad, this is
happening, I'm scared or I feeldisgust or whatever.
(14:12):
It is Right.
And I say that just because Ijust feel it's so important for
people to recognize thesesignals and I know that I was
emitting signals as a child Helpme, I'm not happy, something is
wrong.
But because of my parents' ownchallenges with their own
emotional lives, they miss thosesignals.
And so I just I have to saythat, whether it's uncomfortable
(14:35):
or not for people, and so wehave to be a step ahead of our
kids in terms of creating theconditions for them to be their
true, full feeling selves, andwe can't do that until we are
for ourselves.
It's really hard to do that forour kids when we don't do that
for ourselves?
Jon @wholeparent (14:52):
Yeah, I think Brene Brown even says that's
impossible, right Like BreneBrown even goes as far as to say
, like you cannot give your kidswhat you cannot give yourself,
and I think that that's yeah.
Sorry, I didn't mean tointerrupt that, I just think
that's such a good.
that's like a foundationalprinciple.
And I think that that's whereso many parenting related voices
do miss is that they are sofocused on the child and what's
(15:16):
happening in the child and howto correct the behavior in the
child, how to prepare the childfor resilience or for the long
term, or that they fundamentallymiss.
And what your experience kindof speaks to is your parents
would not have allowed for thatto happen but because of their
own stuff they had no knowledgeor awareness.
Dr. Marc Brackett (15:37):
They weren't attentive to my emotional needs,
they didn't ask questions, theydidn't notice.
You know the signals.
It's hard to notice, and whenyou're anxious yourself and
you're kind of like freaking outevery day, worrying about your
own survival, or you're angry atthe world, you know you're not
looking for these details, youmiss the details.
That's why we need an emotionalintelligence, because how do
(15:57):
you pause and pay attention andprocess and respond accordingly?
But you really asked thequestion about the emotion
scientist versus the emotionjudge, and so you see what I'm
getting at, though.
The permission to feel is kindof the foundation, like just
allowing ourselves to feel andallowing our kids to feel, and
then we have to become curiousexplorers of those feelings, our
(16:20):
own and other people's.
We have to know like what am Ireally feeling?
Why am I feeling this way?
Am I feeling sad or am Ifeeling hopeless?
Am I feeling happy or am Iecstatic?
Am I down or disappointed?
Am I angry, frustrated,overwhelmed or panicky?
And you know, obviously youknow that I'm a big emotion
vocabulary guy which I have toplug.
Just a quick aside my new app Idon't know if you've seen it
(16:43):
yet, but it's called how we Feel.
Jon @wholeparent (16:45):
I have not seen it yet.
Okay, I'm downloading this likeas soon as we get off this how
to Feel, and it's a related toemotional how we feel.
Okay, I'll try and I think Ihave a way in the show notes to
have people have a direct link,whether they have a google or
it's on both okay, I think I cando that great.
Dr. Marc Brackett (17:04):
Well, you can just find it.
It's called how we feel and itwas co-developed with the
co-founder and former ceo ofpinterest.
So ben silverman and I and ourteams worked on this for three
years and we have about amillion people who use the app
and it's really.
I mean, I don't want to bragabout an app that I built
because I feel like it's alittle off, but I'm bragging
(17:25):
about it.
It's really freaking cool.
It's beautifully designed 144emotions that you can choose
from with the words.
It's got about 40evidence-based regulation
strategies built into it thatpeople can practice.
You can track your emotionsover time and look for patterns
at home, at school, at work.
So check it out.
Jon @wholeparent (17:43):
Mark, how did I not know about this?
This is the coolest thing.
Dr. Marc Brackett (17:47):
I was not prepared.
Jon @wholeparent (17:51):
I was not prepared, wait.
So this app has has a hundredand you said 144, or roughly 144
, emotions.
Dr. Marc Brackett (17:59):
Actually, it has more than that it has 144 on
the interface and then, if youdo, you can actually search for
another 500 feelings.
Jon @wholeparent (18:06):
This is so good.
So, like most adults and thisis, you know I'm I usually don't
like quote one person so much,but Brene Brown, again, atlas of
the Heart, which I'm sureyou've read and is very, very
well-versed.
It's kind of the layperson'sversion of an emotional
vocabulary.
Right In that book she talksabout how most adults are
(18:26):
experiencing basically a halfdozen emotions at most, emotions
at most.
And so to have a place whereyou can go and, in your ruler
framework, actually be able toaccurately label which is such a
profound coping mechanism inand of itself, I mean that's a
regulation strategy.
But then you have on top ofthat another, you know three
dozen regulation strategies thatyou can do as well.
(18:46):
That's super, super cool.
Dr. Marc Brackett (18:48):
So that was my little side plug for the app,
which, by the way, will alwaysbe available for free.
There's a special fund that wascreated, so it'll always be
free, so cool.
But going back to, so I'm goingto just bring people back to
where we're at.
We're going to give ourselvesand everyone we love, and even
the people we don't love thatmuch, permission to feel.
We're going to strive to beemotion scientists, be curious
(19:10):
explorers, as opposed tocritical judges.
So what does that look like?
Well, the emotion scientistsays tell me more, I'm curious.
You know, what I'm hearing yousay is that you're frustrated,
but from my frustration is abouta goal being blocked, and what
I'm hearing is an injustice inyour story.
So it sounds like you might befeeling angry.
Jon @wholeparent (19:31):
Yeah, anger.
Dr. Marc Brackett (19:32):
And, importantly, the emotion
scientist recognizes thatfailure is inevitable.
So I talk about this endlesslybecause, you know, this next
book I work is strictly onemotion regulation, and so I've
been like thinking about emotionregulation for three years now
and let me tell you, my family'sbeen thinking about it too and
they've been witnessing mydysregulation from writing the
(19:55):
freaking book Because, like, ifI'm not getting the words out
that I want to get out, it'severybody else's fault.
Just so you know.
It's unbelievable.
Jon @wholeparent (20:03):
That's helpful .
Can I just take a?
I know that we just keepgetting sidetracked.
That's so helpful to hear that,like Mark Brackett, this is one
of the things that I try and doall the time is talk about like
if you saw me in Target notusing any of my parenting hacks
and just like you know beinglike, just get my friggin cart
like to my kid, like you wouldrealize that, like, parenting is
(20:23):
definitely the marathon, notthe sprint.
But to hear that Mark Brackettgets dysregulated and then
misplaces his frustration as youknow anger at other people or
whatever dysregulation justmakes me feel so good about my
own dysregulation.
Dr. Marc Brackett (20:40):
Can I just say that I'm happy to share my.
Jon @wholeparent (20:42):
It was just like it's just such a human
thing.
It's just such a human thingand I think that, like one of
the downsides of the socialmedia you know, generation,
whatever you want to call it isthat we have this picture that
some people haven't figured out.
And the truth is, the more youdig into the people like you who
are actually on the ground,doing the research kind of, some
people might be more advancedbecause of practice and
(21:05):
journaling and using your app,but not like nobody's perfect
and failure is inevitable.
Dr. Marc Brackett (21:12):
I will tell you I'm way better at dealing
with my emotions today than Iwas five years ago, 10 years ago
, 15 years ago.
Way better.
I know more strategies, I'vepracticed more strategies, but
when I get triggered, you knowat home, and it's a rough one.
There are days where I'm likeMark, take your moment, mark,
(21:33):
take a breath, walk out of theroom, say kind things to
yourself.
Remember this feeling isimpermanent.
And then I walk back to them.
I'm like, if I have to tell youone more time, I'm like Mark,
what are you doing right now?
And it's like in that momentI'm just like forget it, but who
cares that?
I'm the director of a centerfor freaking emotional
intelligence.
Jon @wholeparent (21:53):
Anyway, it's, you gotta give yourself
permission to feel, Mark.
You gotta give yourselfpermission to feel in those
moments.
Dr. Marc Brackett (21:59):
my man A permission to feel doesn't give
you permission to be a jerk.
Yes, yes.
Jon @wholeparent (22:06):
Good point.
Dr. Marc Brackett (22:11):
My goal is to prevent myself from being as
nasty as I could be.
Sure, and I've gotten a lotbetter and we can all get better
at it and it is life's work andI just think that's it's very
relieving for people because,like you said not that I'm some
like guru, you know aboutemotions, but you know I'm a
(22:31):
scientist who's writtencurriculum for 30 years and
written books and practice it,and I'm still struggling.
And so I always think to myselfgosh mark, if you're still
struggling, like good luck forthe rest of the world, yeah, but
the rest of the world needs tojust learn more practice, more
refine and you get better.
Jon @wholeparent (22:50):
But you're never going to be perfect,
that's okay you know, practicemakes better, practice makes
better and I think that that's,you know, with an emotion, being
an emotion scientist, like evenin that, there are moments when
all of us aspire to be.
For those of us who are awareof this paradigm and of course
I'm sure that you would agreewith this, none of us are all or
(23:12):
none right Like.
This is variations of gray.
We're not always an emotionscientist, we're not always an
emotion judge.
This is just a paradigm thathelps us frame our own emotional
intelligence.
But, like, we all exist on thiscontinuum where, when life is
hard, when we're triggered, when, you know, I've also lost my
dad and it's we're coming up onthe anniversary, you know, I
just start to get a little bitless patient with my kids.
(23:35):
I start to get a little bitless emotionally aware with my
spouse.
Like those, I realize thatsometimes the best I can do is
kind of being in the middle.
Dr. Marc Brackett (23:46):
You know, the best example I have for that is
, my mother-in-law got stuckhere during the pandemic.
It was unexpected.
She came up from Panama for awedding and a very close friend
of mine, who she likes, wasgetting married on March 3rd of
2020.
Little did we know that noflights to Panama would occur.
(24:07):
She was going to stay till likeMarch 15th.
On March 13th, all the airlinesshut down and they didn't open
up to go to Panama untilSeptember.
So April, may, june, july, andit was like you know, I love her
, she's great, I speak Spanishso we can communicate well.
But let me tell you, by April15th I was like what is
(24:28):
happening?
And then we had a real familyblow up and she yelled at me and
I yelled at her and she saidnasty things and I said them
back and then I did go to bedthat night and going back to
this joke about you know myprofession, I'm like walking up
to my bedroom thinking, mark,you're the freaking director of
a center for emotionalintelligence, like you are a
terrible, terrible role model.
(24:50):
So let's do some scientificinvestigation here.
Let's go to bed and let's askyourself some questions what's
going on?
I hated being at home.
I didn't like working from home.
Two my mother-in-law was alittle codependent.
You know she didn't want tomake her own coffee in the
morning.
She wanted me to make hercoffee.
I'm like you know you learn howto make your own coffee.
I don't like people in themorning.
(25:11):
I'm not a morning.
You know.
Make your own coffee.
I don't like people in themorning.
I'm not a morning.
We're going to work on that.
Three is I'm always traveling.
I travel 50% of the time andthat was like a long time I
hadn't been traveling and I'mlike the routine was like
monotonous.
I wasn't going to my hot yogaclass, like all these things,
and but I had a pause to justgain an understanding of what
were all the reasons, all thethings that were behind my
(25:35):
unpleasant emotions.
And then I had to set a goal,you know, which is how do I want
to be seen by my mother-in-law?
Sure, how do I want to beexperienced by my mother-in-law.
And that really helped.
And you know, I walked down thenext morning and made her a cup
of coffee and I just I shiftedmy brain.
I had a new attitude, and I'mgoing to tell you something that
I think is helpful for peopleis I started making emotion
(25:58):
regulation a game.
I love that and a creativeprocess, and so I started
thinking to myself, like Mark,you're going to come up with the
most fun ways of dealing withyour mother-in-law's emotions,
or you're going to figure out away to like not be so freaking
narcissistic.
You know, and actually realizethat, like do you think she's 81
(26:20):
years old?
I think she wants to be trappedin your house with you.
Like let's get real here Forsure.
For sure.
Anyhow, my point behind allthis is that I started like I'd
go for walks and before I'd comeinto my home, I would grab the
doorknob and I would pause andsay, Mark, how do you want to
show up tonight?
And that would help me get intothe right frame of mind to be
(26:40):
the person I wanted to be.
And then I would strategize,you know, just start thinking
what do you need to do?
What do you need to show upthat way?
All right, you need a longerwalk today.
You need to reframe, you needto take a few deep breaths, you
need to be curious about herlife instead of just so focused
on your life.
Jon @wholeparent (26:56):
So yeah, I think, yeah, we're, we're, I
think I, I I'm sure I've heardyou say something to this effect
, but one of the things thatI've been lamenting on social
media lately is that the way inwhich I get the most engagement
interaction from parents is byparent telling parents what to
do in the responsive moment,like when your kid does this
(27:21):
dysregulated thing.
What should you do?
And what I've been lamenting tothe very few people who
actually see the videos thataren't viral, which is one of
those things right is you know,most of the best parenting we do
is actually proactive, notreactive.
What I'm hearing from you isthat the real work of emotional
intelligence is not what you doin the moment.
(27:42):
It's not what you do when yourkid starts hitting, starts
biting, starts, whatever right.
When your teenager has a mentalhealth crisis, it's actually in
the preparation.
Like it's really easy forparents to prioritize mental
illness when they're sitting inan ER.
It's really hard for those sameparents to prioritize mental
(28:04):
health and mental illness whentheir child's seven and showing
no signs of anxiety, depression,even though they know,
statistically speaking, likethere has never been a time in
recorded history when teenagershave greater mental health risk.
How do we actually start tobecome proactive in how we're
(28:25):
teaching emotion regulation?
How do we become people whostand at the doorknob whenever
that is in our lives and say,okay, how am I going to respond
to my kid when not, if theytrigger me today?
Am I going to respond to my kidwhen not, if they trigger me
today?
How do you?
You know, like know, whenyou're standing at the doorknob,
(28:46):
whatever that place is, whenyou're drinking a cup of coffee
in the morning?
What are my strategies, whatare my go-tos?
And so you've already said theapp as we wrap here in the next
two to three minutes.
How can we connect with you andlearn how to be proactive
emotion scientists, to beprepare ourselves before we're
triggered, to become emotionscientists with our kids and
teach our kids to do the same?
Dr. Marc Brackett (29:05):
yeah, I appreciate that setup.
Here's the thing when you havea mindset as an interventionist,
right, you're always waitingfor the bad thing to happen to
fix.
When you're a preventionscientist, which is what I like
to call myself, you're thinkingabout what needs to happen to
fix.
When you're a preventionscientist, which is what I like
to call myself, you're thinkingabout what needs to happen in
advance to reduce the number ofnew cases that go into the
(29:25):
system.
Let's say it's the prisonsystem, let's say it's the
mental health system, let's sayit's every system.
And it's always morecost-effective.
It's always easier forourselves and others.
When we think prevention, thechallenge is that we have not
raised the skills of emotionalintelligence high enough that
(29:46):
people pay attention to themearly on.
Right, we're still obsessed ineducation with literacy and math
and other subject areas whichare important.
But I'm not going to sleepuntil emotional intelligence
becomes the other side of thereport card, because it's
critical that we start teachingchildren these skills as early
(30:06):
as possible.
Everyone, it's a human right tobe self-aware.
It's a human right to haveskills that you need to navigate
your emotional life, becauseyou can't have a life worth
living if you can't deal withyour emotions.
It's just you struggle way toomuch and it's not fair when it
can be prevented.
So you know, I always say thatwhen I, if I do workshops for
(30:29):
families which I do quite a bitof them if I call it how to
raise an emotionally intelligentchild who gets into an Ivy
League university, 5,000 peopleshow up.
If I call it how to become anemotionally intelligent parent,
two people show up and it'sagain.
You know, it's always aboutlike the teachers think about
I'm adopting a curriculum tomake the kids learn something.
(30:52):
The parents think I'm readingthis book to teach this to my
kid, and the real challenge isthat people haven't worked on
themselves first.
And so for me, you know, myrecommendation to your listeners
is ask yourself do you reallygive yourself permission to feel
?
Do you give your kid thepermission to feel?
(31:14):
Are you the scientist or thejudge with your kid?
If you have multiple children,are you a scientist with one of
your kids and a judge with theother?
Are there certain days of theweek where you're more
judgmental?
Are there certain emotions thatyou're more judgmental about?
And then I think the big one,based on where we went today
with our conversation, is areyou the best possible role model
(31:35):
for your child in terms ofhealthy regulation, best
possible role model for yourchild in terms of healthy
regulation.
So when you come home from workand you're frustrated, do you
say, like leave me alone.
Or do you just go into thekitchen or the bathroom or your
room and lock the door and justsay, you know, daddy needs time?
Or do you come home and say,you know, son, you know daddy
had a rough day at work and Iactually said something that was
mean to a colleague of mine andI feel terrible about it, and
(31:59):
so I may look a little offtonight and I just want you to
know it has nothing to do withyou.
I said I'm really upset withmyself and I'm trying to figure
out what I'm going to say tothis colleague of mine tomorrow
to fix the situation, cause Ijust don't want to have that in
my relationships.
And so I just want you to knowthat honey and I need about 15
minutes to myself just to getmyself kind of make that
(32:20):
transition home, and then we'regoing to go outside and take our
walk or do something together.
And so in that moment what I'vedone is I've shown I'm
vulnerable, I show I care aboutpeople, I've shown that I'm
introspective, I problem solve,I mean, the list goes on, and so
(32:41):
that's my final recommendationfor people that listen to your
work is that it sounds like it'sa lot of work.
It's a lot of work when youdon't know what it is, but once
you know what it is, you canstart thinking about the kind of
bite-sized practices that youcan employ.
You know, as in at home, youknow and everywhere else.
Jon @wholeparent (32:58):
Right, all right, mark, where can we find
you?
Yeah, this has been such afruitful conversation.
You know if I very rarely likeplug my book, but one of the one
of the foundational principlesof what has become the book
Punishment, free Parenting,which comes out in January, is
that most of our good disciplineis done by modeling.
So you really put the ball on atee.
(33:19):
There you go.
Well you put the ball on a teethere.
Yeah, I know my four likepillars of parenting.
I won't give you all four, butone of the four is modeling.
So yeah, put the ball on thetee for me.
But you know people are goingto know where to find my stuff
because they're listening tothis podcast.
But where can we find yourstuff?
Dr. Marc Brackett (33:39):
your stuff.
How can we get in touch?
You know I'm on all the socialmedia channels.
That easy to find me, likeInstagram is, you know, I guess
the one I'm primarily on, whichis just at markbracket, and my
website is markbracketcom.
It's M-A-R-C-B-R-A-C-K-E-T-Tcom.
Two other things is you knowwell, three things.
One is obviously, my book isPermission to Feel.
The app is called how we Feeland then, because all I do is
(34:02):
stuff with feelings, I have thisnew web series where I
interview the leading experts aswell as artists to learn about
how they deal with the feelings,and it's called Dealing with
Feelings on YouTube.
And so I'm delighted for peopleto participate in all those
things.
Jon @wholeparent (34:18):
Fantastic.
All of those resources will belinked in the show notes for
anybody who's listening to this.
Wherever you're finding it, youwill find those resources
linked below.
Mark, thank you so much for allof your time today.
You were so generous with usand, yeah, let's go give
ourselves the permission to feel.
Thank you again to Mark forbeing on the podcast today.
I just wanted to say, if youhave not followed his work yet,
(34:38):
make sure that you go find hisstuff in the show notes.
Get his book Permission to Feel.
I know that he's going to haveanother book coming out soon.
Obviously, we're going to haveto have him back on the podcast
to talk about that work.
Obviously, all the stuff hedoes for the Yale Center for
Emotional Intelligence as well.
Make sure that you'reinteracting, engaging in that.
His work is something that Ireference as much as any other
individual person in my upcomingbook.
(35:00):
It comes out in January of 2025.
We talked about it a little bithere, but, yeah, I just want to
say thank you, mark.
You're one of my heroes.
Thank you so much for sharingwith all of us and, if you love
this episode and you love thetypes of guests that we're able
to get on the Whole ParentPodcast.
Make sure that you like this,that you subscribe to this
podcast.
Make sure that you write areview.
Your reviews are how I knowthat these podcasts are not just
(35:21):
going out into the abyss.
That they're helping you.
They're helping you to parentmore effectively, that they're
helping you to understand yourchild's brain and their emotions
and build emotional regulationand build emotional intelligence
with your child.
All of that, if you want, ifyou love this, make sure that
you are letting me know that Iread every single review that I
get and rating the show fivestars so that you can get out to
(35:41):
as many parents as possible.
Until then, this is all we havefor you on this episode.
Thank you again, mark of theWhole Parent Podcast.
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