December 23, 2025 • 51 mins
In this episode, Jon reflects on the ROUGH moments at family gatherings where love, history, and boundaries collide.... especially when you’re parenting in front of the people who raised you. Anchored in the reminder that “love does not require you to violate your boundaries,” he walks through real parent questions about food comments, gift overload, and forced affection. Parents will leave feeling less alone, more grounded in their authority, and clearer about how to protect their kids without carrying everyone else’s feelings.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon @WholeParent (00:00):
Welcome to the Whole Parent Podcast.
This week it's Christmas.
And every holiday gathering hasits moment.
You know?
It's usually something small,something easy to miss if you're
not paying attention.
Someone says something at atable, someone shows up with too
many gifts, someone leans in fora hug when your child's like,
(00:22):
no.
And suddenly the room shifts.
In this episode, we're lookingat those moments.
The ones where love and goodintentions collide with your
boundaries.
We're gonna hear from parentswho left holiday gatherings
wondering if they handled itright, if they overreacted, if
(00:45):
they should have stayed silent,or maybe if they shouldn't have
stayed silent.
And we'll talk about what'sactually being taught in those
moments.
Not through lectures and rules,but through who steps in, who
absorbs the discomfort, andwho's expected to carry whose
feelings.
This is an episode about familyand about love and about
(01:09):
holidays and the mess that itthat is, and ultimately about
the invisible lines that appearwhen everybody finally gets in
the same room.
Let's get into it.
(01:37):
It's warming up right asChristmas is starting in
Chicago.
It's gonna be like 50 degrees onChristmas, which it's not
uncommon that it's warm onChristmas.
December is usually not thecoldest month in Chicago, but
this December has been reallycold, a lot of snow, which has
been so fun for my kids.
And I thought for sure we weregonna have a white Christmas.
(01:57):
And turns out looks like we'refor sure not gonna have a white
Christmas at this point.
But you know, snow is not whatChristmas is all about.
Presents are not what Christmasis all about.
Caroling is not what Christmasis all about.
Food is not what Christmas isall about.
If you are like most people, theholidays are about one thing,
(02:21):
especially people with kids, Ishould say.
I'm assuming that you have kidsor you have kids in your life,
or maybe you're a grandparent.
The holidays are about onething.
The intersection of parenting infront of the people who raised
you.
And I want to tell, start with astory, and it's not a specific
story, but just kind of ageneral feeling of how I feel
(02:41):
around the holidays.
Holidays are weird for me.
Uh, they're weird for me for acouple of reasons.
The first reason is because Ilove holidays.
Uh, not everybody does, but Ido.
I am the type of person whoreally like shows up and tries
to engage deeply.
And uh I like seeing my family.
(03:03):
I like being around people who Imiss.
I get to see some people aroundChristmas time who I don't often
get to see.
The best man at my wedding, mycousin, who lives on the uh
other side of the country.
Uh, he's around almost everyChristmas and he's got little
ones, and so it's fun to seethem.
And they're just growing up, andso it's it's really fun to see
them because it's like I'mwatching him become a dad too,
(03:26):
and his wife become a mom.
And uh I also get together withthe family who I live closer by
too.
I see them several times a year,but we always see each other on
the holidays.
And I love holidays for that,and I love holidays for their
traditions, and I love all ofthat, I love it for my kids, but
it's weird because I I'll tellyou, nobody thinks of me at
(03:48):
whole parent at thesegatherings, right?
Nobody even thinks of me asPastor John at these gatherings.
Like I am still Jonathan, theyoungest.
I'm not one person I'm olderthan is my cousin.
Maybe I'm giving it away thatI'm I like seeing him, but uh,
I'm like one of the youngestpeople in my generation.
My brothers are eight and tenyears older than me.
(04:08):
Most of my of my other cousinson both sides of my family are
much older than me.
I'm the youngest on my mom'sside, and I'm the second
youngest, along with my cousinon my my dad's side.
And so uh I'm I'm the babystill, and I see my aunts and
uncles, and some of them willhave a have an interesting thing
to say about my life.
(04:30):
Uh, they were excited last yearwhen I was gonna be on a TV
show, the one TV show that I'veever done.
But most of them like kind oflaugh at me and they they just
kind of joke.
And I remember one scenario, onespecific uh situation, I think
it was two years ago, wasn'tlast year, where my aunt was was
over, and I kind of mentionedsomething about how whole parent
(04:54):
was getting bigger and I had themembership or I was starting the
I don't know if I had juststarted the membership or I was
uh it was a year after I'dstarted the membership, but she
came early.
She arrived early, and and so itwas just kind of me standing
there with her, and I said,Well, yeah, there's you know,
there's people out there thatare looking to me for parenting
advice and and parentingeducation, and I get to use my
(05:18):
neuroscience stuff and mypastoral counseling stuff, and
they know that I went to schoolfor this stuff, they they
understand that aspect of it,but they also know that I have
young kids, and my kids were atthat exact moment kind of like
melting down, and one of themwas like biting another one, and
it was just not a good moment.
Like my my at that timethree-year-old was biting my at
(05:40):
that time seven-year-old, and itwas like, man, of course, of
course, it's because things areout of routine and and
everything's going bad.
And so I don't look like a greatparent in this moment.
Um, I think I actually handledthe situation well, but I didn't
handle it probably how it wasexpected that I would handle it,
which is, you know, hey, wedon't do that around here.
And if you do that again, I'mgonna give you X, Y, and Z
(06:01):
punishment, you're gonna have atimeout, or you're gonna be sent
to your room, and nobody's gonnawant to see you around.
I don't know.
I don't know what I was everwhat people were expecting me to
do, but I probably didn't liveup to that expectation.
And the conversation continuedon, and I kind of said, Yeah,
you know that people are lookingto me for this parenting advice
and stuff, and she laughed.
She laughed so hard.
Like, I don't I've not heard herlaugh that hard, maybe in like
(06:24):
years.
Um and she was like, Why wouldanybody want any advice from
you?
And I in that moment was just alittle kid again, like
desperately seeking theaffirmation of the people in the
room.
(06:45):
And it was at that moment that Ithen had to go and process uh
the situation had calmed downwith my kids in front of these
people, their sibling problemthat they had just had.
Somebody had taken something andI don't know who started it.
I know who finished it.
(07:05):
The three-year-old finished itby biting the seven-year-old
hard.
That's that's what I rememberabout the situation.
But I remember walking over andbeing like parenting in front of
these people is harder thanparenting in front of like
millions uh on the internet.
Parenting in front of one personor one room full of people who
(07:29):
watched you grow up is harder.
It's harder for me to regulatemyself, it's harder for me to do
the things that I believe in,it's harder for me to follow the
science, to follow theneuroscience in front of those
people than it is for me toadvocate for this stuff and get
shredded in the comments by ahundred thousand people.
Like, I don't care about that.
(07:49):
But the judgment of a familymember, boy, that can sting.
And so that was a long, longintro, probably too long for
this episode for everything wehave to call it cover.
But I just want you to hearfirst and foremost that it's
hard for all of us because we goback to being that little kid in
(08:13):
that relationship.
And a lot of the questions thatI'm answering today, I got I got
these from Instagram, by theway.
I put out a call, hey, I needyou know, questions for my
holiday episode.
What do you guys want to hearabout?
And and the number one mostasked for thing was like, we
want to hear about how do wedeal with relatives who like
(08:33):
don't align around the holidays.
We have to see these people, butwe we don't necessarily align
with them, they don't followboundaries, they don't, they
don't do gentle parenting, theydon't do whole parenting, they
don't, they haven't read yourbook, um, they don't seem to
have any interest in that.
How do we parent?
And so I just wanted to start bysaying, I I understand why
that's so hard because it's sohard for me.
(08:55):
And so if it's so hard for you,like welcome.
Welcome to the safe space.
Well, we're gonna talk about ittonight or today or whenever you
listen to this.
And there's no judgment for me.
There's no judgment for me ifyou don't do everything
perfectly, if you use way morescreens when your family is
(09:16):
around because you just don'tknow how to regulate.
There's no judgment for me ifyou snap at your kids more than
is typical because everything'sout of routine and you're
parenting in front of thesepeople.
There's no judgment for mebecause even though I think I,
in retrospect, I probablyhandled the biting situation
pretty well.
I I remember then talking tothem afterwards and feeling like
(09:37):
I couldn't really have theheart-to-heart conversation that
I needed to have, especiallywith the seven-year-old, about
his brother who had just bit himand how he didn't really
understand, but also he's stilllearning and all this stuff.
I remember being reallydistracted and feeling like,
yeah, I probably don't know whatI'm doing here, which is not a
good feeling to feel totallylacking in confidence in your
(10:00):
own home with your own kidsbecause it doesn't feel like
your home when the people fromyour childhood are there.
Um, and so without further ado,it's a long intro.
I'm sorry.
I want to get to my firstquestion from Kelsey.
Kelsey says, at familygatherings, my mom always
(10:20):
comments about how much my kidsare eating.
Who's going back for seconds?
Whether someone needs to slowdown on the sweets.
Sometimes it's phrased aspraise, sometimes it's phrased
as concern, but it's justunnecessary, in my opinion.
I'm trying to raise kids whohave healthy relationships with
food and their bodies.
(10:41):
I grew up with a lot of bodyshame and disoriented disordered
eating, but I'm trying to beintentional about not praising,
passing that on to my kids.
I've tried to gently redirecther in the moment, but it keeps
happening.
When I've addressed it directly,she always says that I'm
overreacting or projecting myown issues.
How do I intervene in real timewithout escalating things?
(11:03):
Kelsey, this is such a goodquestion.
And I think it gets to the heartof the boundaries that we're
talking about.
First, I just want to highlightfor you and give you the, if
you're looking for theammunition for why most experts,
both child dietitians orpediatric dietitians and
(11:24):
nutritionists, also just likechild psychologists and
psychiatrists, say that thistype of relationship with food,
you know, hey, you need to slowdown or you need to watch your
weight or like just constantlyhyperfixating about food, why
that's a problem.
Let me just lay out for youreally quickly.
Bang, bang, bang.
Number one, your job as aparent, number one, is to help
(11:47):
your child develop a healthyrelationship with food, full
stop.
That is your primary job as faras nutrition is concerned.
Unless your child issignificantly underweight or
they have some criticaldeficiency, that your
pediatrician is saying they needto X, Y, and Z.
And your pediatrician is puttingthat on you.
Hey, look, in your specificcase, your child needs to blah,
(12:07):
blah, blah, blah, blah, whateverit is.
Trust your pediatrician.
But beyond that, if your childis growing normally and they're
within a reasonably healthy likeweight and size and growth
pattern, which probably does notlook like what your mom maybe
wants it to look like, but butfor sure that that that it's
your pediatrician does not haveconcerns.
(12:30):
What you're saying, nothyper-fixating, hyper-focusing,
constantly commenting on bodiesand food, is the right way.
Because your number one job isto create a positive
relationship with food.
Say it last time.
Your number one job is to createa positive relationship with
food.
It's not for them to get alltheir veggies, it's not for them
to clean their plate, it's notfor them to, again, anything
(12:52):
else.
Positive relationship with food.
When you constantly comment andyou have this running commentary
about food and bodies, it doesthree things.
Number one, it teachessurveillance, which is that
everyone is watching andeverybody's judging me for how
much I eat or how little I eat,but I'm just I'm under a
constant threat of monitoring.
(13:13):
Not a healthy relationship withfood to feel constantly
surveilled while you're eating,like everybody's watching you.
Two, it assigns moral value,right, to something that is
amoral.
The act of eating is amoral.
It is not moral, it is notimmoral.
Eating more or less does not saysomething about who a person is
intrinsically.
(13:35):
There is no moral value toconsuming calories.
It is sometimes an unhealthy,maladaptive coping mechanism
when you have disordered eating,which you said was a struggle
for you.
A lot of that comes from moralvalue being assigned to body
(13:56):
types, but especially toconsumption of food.
And number three, and I thinkthis is probably the thing
that's most overlooked, it justdisconnects kids from their
internal hunger and full cues.
Like healthy relationship withfood looks like I eat until I'm
full and then I stop eating.
That's that's a healthyrelationship with food.
(14:17):
Your hunger, you're full.
You like this, you'reexperiencing pleasure through
eating, satisfaction, right?
Like all of these are what yourgoal is for eating.
If you have constant commentaryrunning, it just disrupts all of
those things.
And so if you're looking for thehere is why, mom, number one, I
(14:40):
don't want my kids to feel likethey're being watched.
Number two, there in my opinion,there is no moral value to food,
eating or not eating.
Like there, that is not a moralchoice that our kids are making.
And number three, I am trustingthe science that when you
constantly distract kids fromtheir internal cues about when
(15:01):
they're hungry, when they'refull, by saying you should be
more hungry or you should bemore full, or you should stop
eating, or you should keepeating, that that is not healthy
for them and that it createsdisordered eating.
And I'm not projecting my ownissues, I'm telling you exactly
what I've been told by mentalhealth experts, by pediatric
dietitians, by mental healthcounselors, by uh child
(15:23):
psychologists.
And all of them seem to agreeabout this.
I mean, there are in the worldof wellness and nutrition,
you're gonna get a lot of peoplewho kind of come out of nowhere
with their crazy schemes andthoughts and stuff.
It's crazy how the consensus isreally pretty solid on this,
that the goal for childhood isnot like getting enough
(15:45):
cruciferous vegetables, which isby the way, like broccoli and
leafy greens and stuff likethat.
We used to think that that waslike, oh, you gotta do that.
Like I remember sitting there,you gotta eat your vegetables to
grow up big and strong, right?
Um, and and we had multiplepeople, by the way, Kelsey, and
if you're listening to this, askabout something related to my my
parents make comments aboutfood.
And so it's and it's notunusual.
(16:07):
My grandmother used to makecomments about what everybody
was eating and whether we wereeating more, or here, take more,
take more, or oh, you don't needthat, you know.
And and I hate to say it, butoften there is gender play at
play here where our little boyswere telling them, Oh, you need
to keep eating, you're a growingboy.
And our little girls weresaying, You need to start
watching your weight.
Seven-year-old, like, what arewe doing, guys?
(16:29):
And so the the old oldergeneration just needs to shut up
about it.
And it's this is a place whereyou know you have to intervene,
but your question is a is avalid one.
How do you intervene withoutescalating things?
I think number one, you justaddress it up front.
I one of the things that I'mgonna like continually come back
to here is that one of thestruggles for us as grown
(16:53):
children, everybody's a grown-upkid, right?
When your parents or yourin-laws or your grandparents are
in the room, all of a sudden youdon't feel like a grown-up kid
anymore, you just feel like akid again.
And this is a common thingacross most people, like like
many people experience this.
This is not just a me projectingmy issues onto this.
This is a common thing that I'veworked with many parents who go
(17:16):
through this phenomenon, feelinglike I'm back in I'm back in
trouble again.
Because I, you know, my parentscan still get me in trouble,
even though I'm 30 years old or35 years old, whatever.
Um, on the contrary, on thecontrary, oftentimes parents uh
from that generation, boomersand you know, the greatest
(17:36):
generation, whatever, they needto be told who's boss.
And they're gonna respect you alot more for that.
So just come right out and sayit up front.
Hey, mom, we're not makingcomments about how she eats.
And if we are, then we're gonnahave a problem.
And what I said in the intro, Ithink is really important here.
A lot of times we don't want toget in trouble with our parents,
(18:00):
and so essentially we hang ourkids out to dry.
We like let them receive thosenegative comments, and we're
just like, oh, it's just a yeah,but I don't want to, you know,
go in and you know, I don't wantto get in trouble.
Like, wait, it's like when yourbrother's getting in trouble and
you're growing up, you don'twant to like step in and be like
defend him because then you'regonna be in trouble.
Like, that's what it feels like.
Your parents your parents arekind of coming down on your
(18:21):
kids.
It can feel like I don't want toget in in between this,
especially when it's somethingwhere it's like, do I really
need to make this a big dealright now?
Do I have to make this a thing?
I think, I think in this case,you know, let's cut this off
before it becomes a biggerthing.
You didn't say how old your kidsare, but I'm just assuming by
the wording of the questionthey're younger.
Like, let's cut this off beforethis becomes a big thing.
(18:44):
Here, here's exactly what youcan say.
Number one, you can say, we'rehelping our kids to listen to
their bodies so we don't labelfood or portions.
We don't have common, we don'thave commentary about it.
But that's what we're doing.
Or you can say to your child,and this is almost riskier.
(19:08):
I'm gonna be honest.
For some parents, this will bethis will be seen as
disrespectful and defiant.
They'll want you to address itwith them.
If you feel that they're justnot taking the hint, you can
literally look directly at yourchild and you can say, You're
allowed to eat until your bodyfeels full, and then you don't
have to eat anymore, and no onecan make you eat.
(19:29):
And you can just name that andjust call it what it is, and
that can create some issues, butI'll be totally transparent.
I had a a run in with my mom,not even over my kid, over
another kid in our family, w inFebruary of last year, or maybe
March.
(19:49):
And uh I kind of felt likebacking down, and I was like,
you know what, though, like it'seither me or it's this kid.
And I just stood my ground.
And it was brutal.
But even though it was brutal,like I can't think the kid, the
kid wasn't in the crosshairsanymore.
(20:10):
And my mom is like really goodabout this stuff.
She's not usually this person.
And it wasn't about like you'reeating too much or it's body
image thing.
It was it was about like ummanners.
And I was like, do they reallyhave to have manners?
And she was like, Yeah.
And I was like, Ah, do theythough?
And it was not a pretty sight.
I mean, it was it's prettybrutal.
(20:32):
Like everybody in the room waslike, dude, cut the tension with
a knife.
But I think that that's it'sworthy to do.
So, how do you intervene withoutescalating things?
You can address it up front sothat it doesn't become a whole
thing over the dinner table.
And you can also just prepareyour kid.
Hey, you know what?
Grandma says weird stuffsometimes about how much you
(20:53):
eat.
I can't have to listen to that.
I don't listen to her about thateither.
In our family, we eat untilwe're full.
And then we stop eating.
If grandma doesn't like that,that's her family.
That's not our problem.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Let me take a quick break before I get to question
number two.
Jon @WholeParent (23:27):
Question number two comes again from
Instagram.
These are all from Instagram, Ithink, because they are all a
part of that uh back and forththat we did.
I responded to people and theygave me these in the DMs.
My in-laws comes from Patrick.
My in-laws are very involved inour life.
They, on the surface, they'reloving and generous, but they
(23:49):
don't always respect boundaries.
Two things can be true.
We can have parents who are.
I'm sorry to interrupt thequestion, but one of the real
challenges in dealing withfamily members is like we can
love them and we can know thatthey're flawed, and we can know
that like on the whole, it's agood thing that they're around.
(24:10):
We are presented often withthis, these, this binary of like
either your parents are perfectand you like let them watch your
kids and like you just trustthem intrinsically, and they
they're the greatest parentsthat you've ever had and they're
the greatest grandparents, orlike you go no contact and you
never see these people.
I don't think that those are theonly options.
(24:30):
If if you have to make it anoption to cut ties based on what
I say in this episode, um thatis your call.
It's not my call.
I I doubt that that that uhyou're gonna make that choice
based on what I say, but butthat's a call that you make,
it's not a call that I'm helpingyou make.
That said, I think most oftenwe're in the messy middle.
(24:53):
And the messy middle is on thesurface, our parents are loving
and generous, and they don'talways respect boundaries.
Okay, back to the question.
My wife and I have been clearand consistent about certain
parenting boundaries, thingslike screen time, discipline,
sugar, routines.
In the moment, they seem toagree.
They nod, they say theyunderstand, and then as soon as
(25:15):
we're not around, they doexactly what we asked them not
to do.
This time of year, it shows upmost around gifts.
We've asked them to keep thingssimple, not overwhelm the kids.
Specifically, we asked them toonly get one gift for each kid.
But I already know that thisrequest will be annoying,
ignored.
We try and hold the line, but itoften turns into this is just
(25:38):
the type of grandparent that Iwant to be, or you're taking
away my way of showing love.
I'm exhausted from feeling likeI constantly have to choose
between protecting our parentingchoices and keeping the peace.
How do you hold boundaries within-laws who don't see boundaries
as valid without blowing up theentire relationship?
Great question, Patrick.
(26:00):
I want to begin by understandingwhat boundaries are.
Boundaries are, in the words ofBrene Brown, what is okay and
what is not okay.
If you say something is not okayfor your child, that is a
boundary.
Parents in-laws who choose toviolate those boundaries need to
(26:25):
be held accountable for theirviolation of those boundaries.
Parents and in-laws who violateour boundaries need to be held
accountable for thoseviolations.
And I don't know how what thataccountability looks like in
your house, but true just sayingwe're going to keep the peace by
(26:46):
ignoring the boundary oversteponly permits further boundary
incursions.
I think I cut this entirely outof the book.
I might have had it still in thebook.
I don't remember.
But one of the stories that Ihad in the book initially, in
the initial drafts, if it's notstill in there, was about
boundaries.
And it was about my friend fromuh my first job out of college,
(27:13):
and she had these this sharedbackyard.
There was no fence in thebackyard.
And there was this property lineboundary that they had and with
their neighbor.
And they noticed that theirneighbor had like built a
vegetable patch that kind ofcrossed the boundary a little
(27:34):
bit.
And they had just moved in andthey were like, We're not gonna,
we're not gonna make a big dealabout this.
This is like an old guy.
He's like, he's likes ustomatoes.
We don't, we're not putting up afence.
Like, who cares if like one rowof tomatoes is technically on
our side of the boundary?
And over time, that boundaryincursion turned into more
(27:55):
boundary incursions.
Specifically, the culmination ofthis is that he built a full
shed like a foot and a half overthe boundary line.
And so he built a shed next tohis garden.
And, you know, his garden likeexpanded into their yard more,
and then he built a shed next tothe garden.
Meanwhile, her kids are gettingolder, and her kids want to
(28:17):
start playing like backyardbaseball, and they get a dog and
they go, We got to put up afence.
So they call the fencingcompany, and the fencing company
runs a survey and they go, Yeah,you know, this guy is over the
property line.
And they're like, Yeah, we know,but like, can we just like put
it in a little bit?
And they're like, Yeah, no,that's not how this works.
(28:38):
I mean, we could put the fencein further, but but then you're
gonna, it's gonna look weird.
You're gonna have to like buildit around this stuff, and and
really he has no right to be onthis property right here.
And they're like, Yeah, but wedidn't tell him, you know, about
his tomatoes, and then he builtthis shed and he didn't ask.
And he's like, It's not yourfault.
He built an unpermitted shedwithout asking, like, getting a
plot of survey, that's not yourfault.
(28:59):
And they're going back andforth.
So finally they tell him,they're like, hey, we we're
gonna have to, you know, wegotta ask you, like, move the
shed or figure out how to moveit because like they can't build
the fence here, they need tobuild it right here.
And by the way, your tomatoesare over the line, so like we're
gonna lose road tomatoes.
And the guy's like, I'm notmoving anything.
They have to go to get a courtorder and then tear down this
guy's shed, ruins therelationship forever.
(29:22):
Like, cannot have a relationshipwith his neighbor ever again.
If you live next to somebody whojust absolutely hates your guts,
it's not a pleasant thing.
And I'm not gonna say that itwas their fault entirely, but
there is some blame to be passedon the fact that they did
nothing about the early boundaryincursions that were not a big
deal.
(29:43):
Like, they did nothing about thetomatoes and they did nothing
about the guarding going in.
And that failing to hold thatboundary when they knew that it
had been crossed and not comingforward.
I mean, when they bought thehouse, they said this guy's
encroaching on your propertyline.
You have to get a survey whenyou buy a house.
They said, this guy's over theline.
You should tell him that he'sover the line.
And they're like, ah, we don'twant to bother him.
(30:04):
We don't want to make him mad.
We want to be good neighbors.
Turns out you ruined therelationship.
You blew it up.
And the reason that you blew itup is because you failed to hold
boundaries effectively when theboundaries were still small.
So here's what I'll say.
As I said before, I think thisgeneration, this older
(30:26):
generation, they understand theyou're the parent, take some
charge.
They they want to, they're allup in my comments frequently,
telling me how I'm too soft onkids or I'm giving parents
permission to be too permissive.
And um, you know, parents needto be their kids' parents, not
their friends, and they need totake charge, and they need to
(30:47):
kids need to learn morediscipline, and kids need to
learn more respect, and kidsneed to, you know, have be
obedient to their parents, andthat's in the Bible, or
whatever, right?
Whatever they want to say.
Um, you can turn that backaround and go, hey, I know that
you know that I'm their parent.
I know that you know that I'mtheir dad.
(31:08):
I know that you know that she'stheir mom.
As their mom, as their dad, weare making the call, and it's
not your call.
This isn't the type ofgrandparent you want to be.
I'm sorry.
It's not your call.
It's our call.
So you can get them one gift oryou can get them no gifts.
You can do no gifts.
(31:29):
That's cool.
We can do no gifts this year.
If you feel like one gift showslike too little of your love,
you can get them a bigexperience.
You can get them an expensivegift to keep you.
You can get the offer themalternatives, but you can't get
them more than one gift.
And if you do, we're gonna havea problem.
We're gonna have an issue.
We're gonna have to address thisboundary violation.
Because here's the thing thatsmall boundary violation does
(31:52):
become a bigger boundaryviolation.
When they turn it back and useit, well, you're not letting me
show my love to these kids.
I have not no problem with youshowing love.
You just can't show love in thisway.
I'm not going to ask my kid to,we're not gonna uproot
everything and upend everythingso that you can show love in
this way.
Like, this is not what we look,we don't view uh consumerism as
(32:18):
a as a as a thing of uh uhindication of your love.
And we don't want to startgiving our kids the idea that
they that that it is a measureof love.
I understand why you'reexhausting for constantly having
to choose protecting yourparenting choices versus keeping
your peace, Patrick.
What I'm saying is you will bemore exhausted if you don't
(32:41):
protect your parenting choices.
And this is, I usually do notgive such harsh advice on the
podcast, but we are dealing withgrown-ups here.
And just because your yourin-laws' emotional dysregulation
is not your concern.
Your children's development andemotional dysregulation is your
concern.
Now, within reason, right?
(33:03):
Like you can't control how yourkid feels.
Sometimes you have to let theemotions just you have to learn
to surf their emotional waves.
But when your in-laws or yourparents show up and they're
trying to guilt you or trying tosh, you know, do this
narcissistic, like emotionalmanipulation tactics, I'm sorry,
(33:25):
I'm not here for it.
And if they cannot hold respectin this relationship, because
what they're saying to you rightnow is that they don't respect
you.
What they're saying to you rightnow is, yeah, you are the
parent, and we don't actuallyrespect that.
And I think they need to learnhow to respect that.
And I think if that takes aconversation, hopefully not in
(33:47):
front of the kids.
I mean, sometimes it has to be,but but hopefully, this is a
conversation that you can have.
You pull them aside and you go,hey, we need to have a chat over
here.
Kids go play in the basement.
We need to go have a chat rightnow.
Hey, that was inappropriate.
We're not doing that anymore.
You need to respect ourparenting choices, or we're
gonna make different choices.
And you're not gonna like thosechoices.
(34:07):
It's not a threat, it's apromise.
Like, name it and hold theboundary.
Not because your parents aren'tor your in-laws are not loving
and generous, but because thatis not the whole story here, and
we need to hold the boundary.
(34:29):
If it is not okay that they areviolating these routines, then
they have become untrustworthycaregivers for you.
And untrustworthy caregivers arenot people who you want with
your kids.
I want you to bring them backinto trust.
And I don't think that this hasto be a punitive thing.
I think that oftentimes theolder generation who only knows
(34:51):
punishment will try and make itpunitive.
Well, you're punishing me.
I'm not punishing you.
I'm anti-punishment.
I'm telling you what theboundary is and I'm asking you
to respect it.
And if you can't respect it,then I have to make different
choices.
That's not a threat, that isjust the facts of the matter.
If you have to write it outbeforehand, do it.
(35:14):
Instead of saying somethinglike, please stop buying so many
gifts, start saying things like,We're gonna be keeping the extra
gifts at your house.
We're gonna donate them, we'regonna space them out after the
holidays, but they're not openin all of them today.
(35:38):
Instead of saying, you know, weneed to when they say something
like, We're you know, you'retaking away our our way of
showing love, you just say, Weknow that you're trying to show
them love.
We're just being intentionalthat love is not expressed this
way with our kids.
Just very clearly.
(35:59):
And like I said, you can offerthem alternatives, experience
gate-based gifts, whatever.
But I think, and and I this Ispent the longest time on this
answer in this podcast episode,because I think this
encapsulates so many differentpieces.
Because it's not a a like aspecific thing that we really
can't like handle, it's not it'snot a toxic um like body image
(36:22):
related thing or personalautonomy thing, which we're
gonna talk about now.
It's it's just like people notrespecting your boundaries, and
I think that you have to I thinkyou have to make people respect
your boundaries.
Because the other thing here isthat your kids see this and they
learn that some people are notdon't have to respect your
boundaries, and that's not alesson that you want them to
(36:43):
learn.
You don't want you don't wantyour parent you don't want your
kids to learn that just becausethey're somebody who's family,
they're allowed to do whateverthey want to you.
It's a hard lesson to unlearn.
SPEAKER_01 (36:57):
I'm still learning unlearning that one.
Okay.
Little break.
10 out of three.
Jon @WholeParent (37:11):
Question three.
Uh, I did not ask you if I wasallowed to share your name, and
so I'm not gonna share yourname.
This parent said, my daughterdidn't want to give my mom a hug
goodbye.
But instead of respecting that,my mom got visibly upset and
really pushy about it until mydaughter was literally burying
her face into my leg.
Later, when I brought it up tomy mom, she doubled down and
(37:34):
said that my daughter hurt herfeelings and that I'm teaching
her to be rude, and that whydon't I care about her feelings
too?
What am I supposed to say tothat?
I think the personal autonomypiece for kids is a good place
(37:55):
for us to wrap up this episodebecause I think this is one of
those we we we had a firstquestion about values, we had a
second question aboutboundaries, and now we have a
third question about respectingkids and treating kids with
dignity and as full humans whoare allowed to make their own
choices.
And I think it's a good place toend because this is the third
(38:17):
place that people struggle.
I had a very similar commentthat was almost identical to
this, where the mom said that uhthe the parent who didn't get
hugs said that she was being ameanie.
Like this was like she said shecalled my daughter a meanie.
You're being a meanie to likethis whatever, four-year-old,
five-year-old kid.
(38:39):
The thing that we have to remindourselves is that just because
our parents say something doesnot make it true, your daughter
was not being rude.
She was communicating herboundaries and her desires.
Not your boundaries, but herboundaries.
Burying her face in your leg isher way of saying, I need to get
back to my safe home basebecause this does not feel safe
(39:01):
to me.
I made a statement, I don't wantto give a hug right now.
And now, in the moment, when anadult who has power over that
child because they are biggerand stronger, and they can
leverage manipulation, pushespast that, the issue stops
becoming about manners.
It becomes whose feelingsmatter.
(39:24):
Does the adult's feelings mattermore than a child's bodily
autonomy?
And I think the answer to thatis resoundingly no.
Unfortunately, this has notalways been true in our society
or in the way in which we parentkids, like like very frequently,
abuse, outright abuse has beenjustified by saying, well, like
(39:47):
kid doesn't really understandit.
Like we're not gonna work, butwe're not gonna go and get uncle
so-and-so thrown in jail overthis.
We just need to keep a bettercloser eye on him.
And it goes unreported.
And that person continues toabuse, and that child goes
without counseling and therapythat they need.
And and all of this comes fromthis idea that children should
(40:09):
not be able to or should not bepermitted to say no.
And I'm gonna tell you rightnow, I am a strong advocate for
this is how we groom childrenfor not only abuse now, but
abuse later.
It is how we you know, you know,like, why don't you give me a
hug?
Don't you love me?
Becomes abusive partners later,saying, Why don't you do this
(40:31):
with me right now, even thoughyou're not in the mood, even
though you don't feel like it,even though you don't want to?
Don't you love me?
These types of emotionalmanipulations take root.
And I know it's not that I I'mI'm making a mountain out of
what many people feel as amoleho.
It's just a hug.
Come on, why are you being sucha whatever about it?
I'm being that way because thechild very clearly made it that.
(40:53):
I I don't think that we need tolike if you offer a kid a hug
and they're kind of likeambivalent about it and they're
kind of like, ah, whatever,fine.
And then they kind of like don'treally hug you back, but they're
like, whatever, I don't reallycare.
That's how my kids aresometimes.
Um, I think that that's onething.
I don't think you need to makethat like the world and
anything, but why do people needto hug kids?
This is a strange thing to me.
(41:13):
I don't feel like the need tohug every kid that I know um in
order to show them that I amaffectionate about them, even
kids who are related to me.
I don't, you know, I don't makemy kids hug me when you know
when I feel close to them and Imight ask for a hug and if they
say no, that's that's it, right?
I might turn it into a gamesometimes.
Be like, oh, you can't hug me.
Such a just just a little, Ijust want a little hug.
(41:35):
I don't want a big hug.
My kids come over, give me a bighug.
Again, that's a that's a game.
But we I don't I'm not trying tomake this into like something
that it's not, but the secondthat the child turns away and
goes, like, mom, get me out ofhere.
Okay, that that's when we knowthat it's it's drawn past this
point.
I got in big trouble.
My most viral video early onTikTok was this girl smashing
(41:56):
her phone with a hammer andshe's like melting down while
she's doing it.
She's a teenager, maybe 13, andshe's uh she's like crying,
weeping, like hyperventilatingas she's being forced by her
mother's boyfriend, I think, wasthe End of the video, mother's
boyfriend making her smash herown cell phone with a hammer.
And I said, This is abuse.
And many people said, How couldthis possibly be abuse?
(42:18):
John, what do you know?
You don't know what you'retalking about.
I said, It's abuse because lookat their face.
It's abuse because look at howshe's responding.
I don't care what you do to aperson.
I mean, I do.
Obviously, there's many thingsthat are abuse.
I shouldn't have said that thatwas a dumb thing to say.
It's not always what you do to aperson that's obviously abuse.
It's how they respond.
If a person feels deeply unsafeand and emotionally distraught
(42:43):
by you demanding a hug as theyleave, they're not being a
meanie, they're not being rude.
You at that point have put themin a position where they are
distressed.
And so I want you to rememberthat no child is ever
responsible for managing anadult's emotions.
(43:03):
And you are not responsible asyour mother's child for managing
her emotions either.
There's gonna be a whole notherepisode someday all about
parents who try and do rolereversal later in life, where
they kind of do this, like,well, now that I'm 60 and you're
(43:27):
30, why don't you take care ofme a little bit?
Parents aren't allowed to dothat.
That's not healthy, ever.
If you find yourself in thatrelationship, something has gone
very wrong.
That's not how parent-childrelationships are supposed to
function.
I understand when your parent isdying of cancer.
I've been there.
I cared for my dad when he wasdying of cancer.
(43:50):
At no point did he ask me to behis dad.
That would have beeninappropriate.
And so the problem is many of usgrew up managing our parents'
emotions because we controlledour behavior and we controlled
our emotional reactions tothings in order to not set them
off.
So all of this to say, you arenot responsible for her
(44:12):
emotions.
Your daughter is certainly notresponsible for her emotions.
And I would interveneimmediately, if that ever
happens again, and make itawkward if it has to be.
You take the awkward hit.
This is exactly what I did.
It was again, it was notsomething that was this bad.
It was like a manners-relatedthing.
(44:33):
But I saw an adult relativegetting into it with a kid and
going, like, you need to stopdoing this thing.
It's gross and I don't like it.
And the kid was like two.
And I was like, Hey, how aboutyou pick on somebody your own
size?
And it was bad and awkward andterrible.
(44:53):
But at least it was awkward andterrible for me, and not for the
two-year-old.
I think you intervene and youput yourself in harm's way if
necessary.
Put yourself, your body betweenyour daughter and your mom.
I think that's the right thingto do.
You correct the message withyour child afterwards.
Hey, you did not do anythingwrong.
You are allowed to choose whoyou hug and who touches you, and
(45:15):
who touches your body.
And if you don't want to touchsomebody, or you don't want
somebody to touch you, you cantell them.
And that is not that is not bad.
That is good.
And if anybody ever touches youand they're not supposed to,
when you say no, you tell meright away, and we I will make
sure it never happens again withthat person.
And then clearly address it withyour mom after the fact outside
(45:37):
the moment.
Because I promise you, in thatmoment, when you step in
between, when you do all the sheis dysregulated, she is not
ready, and she is not in alearning receptive state, she's
gone.
And so you have to address itwith her, but it's not gonna
happen in that moment, not well.
So come back later and say, hey,look, I'm not gonna allow you to
(45:59):
guilt my kids about physicalaffection, I'm not gonna allow
you to demean them aboutphysical not wanting to hug you,
I'm not gonna allow you to callthem names like meanie.
If that choice is not going tobe respected, then we are going
to limit our contact with you.
And she's not gonna hug youever.
(46:21):
Even if it hurts your feelings.
Make it real clear.
We're not doing this.
We're not playing those games.
Don't do it in the moment.
Do it after the fact.
It's just way better.
But there is no justificationfor making a child feel bad for
not wanting to hug a relative.
(46:41):
Ever.
You can have that conversationlater.
Yeah, you know, grandma camefrom a different time, and she
probably had to hug people shedidn't want to hug, and now she
feels like she should be able tomake people hug her who don't
want to hug her, but we're notdoing that anymore.
We live in a better time now,and we're not gonna do that.
A little adult discomfort inthat moment is teaching your
(47:03):
child a valuable lesson.
Your body is yours, nobody isallowed to touch it, touch you.
Mom will always come and protectyou when you need me.
And love does not require you toviolate your own boundaries.
And that should be the title ofthis whole holiday episode.
It has not been a cheery one.
We have not talked aboutbeautiful, warm, and fuzzy
(47:27):
things, but it's because that'snot what you asked me to talk
about on this episode.
You all came forward and yousaid, This is what we want to
hear about, John.
And so that's the episode that Imade.
And it really should be LoveDoes Not Require You to Violate
Your Boundaries.
That should be the title.
It's not going to be, but youknow that that's what it is.
Okay, I've already gone toolong.
(47:49):
I'm over time.
Anyway, hope you have a goodholiday week.
See you on the next one.
Thank you for your timelistening to the whole parent
podcast today.
I hope you got something out ofit.
I have a couple quick favors toask of you as we end the
episode.
(48:09):
The first one is to jump over onwhatever podcast platform that
you are listening to right nowand rate this show five stars.
You'll notice there are a lot offive-star ratings on this show,
whether that's on Spotify orApple Music or Apple Podcasts.
We have a ton of five-starratings, and it helps our
podcast get out to more peoplethan almost any other parenting
(48:31):
podcast out there.
And so it's a really quick thingthat you can do if you have 15
or 20 seconds.
And if you have an additional 30seconds, I'd love to read a
review from you.
I read all the reviews that comethrough.
If some of you particularly likeone part of the podcast or you
like when I talk about somethingor whatever, imagine that you're
writing that review directly tome.
The second thing that you can dois go and send this episode to
(48:55):
somebody in your life who youthink could use it.
Think about all the parents inyour life.
Think about your friends, yourfamily members who could use a
little bit of help parenting.
It's vulnerable to share anepisode of a parenting podcast
with them.
I get it.
But imagine how much better yourlife is as a result of listening
to this podcast, of following meon social media, of getting the
(49:16):
emails that I send out.
You can share that with someoneelse too.
And so I encourage you, just goover, shoot them a quick text,
share this episode with them, orshare another episode that you
feel like is particularlyrelevant to them.
The last thing you can do is godown to the link show notes at
the bottom.
And like I said, in themid-roll, you can subscribe on
Substack.
(49:37):
It's$5 a month or$50 a year.
Uh I don't have that many peopledoing it, and yet the people who
are doing it have made thispossible.
And so if you like this episode,if you like all of the episodes,
if you want them to continue,the only way that I can keep
making them is through donorsupport, free will donations to
(49:58):
the podcast.
Please, please, please, please,as you're thinking about the end
of this year, as you're thinkingabout your charitable giving, I
know I'm not a 501c3.
You can't write it off on yourtaxes, but if you'd like to give
me a little gift to just saythank you for what you've done
this year, the best way to dothat is over on Substack.
Again,$5 a month,$50 a year.
(50:18):
It's not going to break thebank.
It's probably less than youspend on coffee every week.
Definitely less than you spendon coffee every week.
Maybe uh less than you spend onalmost anything, right?
Five bucks a month is very, verysmall, but it goes a long way
when it's multiplied by all ofthe different people who listen
to the podcast.
It's sending that over to me.
I get all of that money.
(50:39):
It's just my way of being ableto produce the podcast, spend
money on equipment, spend moneyon subscription fees, hosting
fees for the podcast, all ofthat stuff.
Email server fees, all that.
So if you're willing to do that,I would love it.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode, and I'll see
you next time.
Welcome to the Whole Parent Podcast.
This week it's Christmas.
And every holiday gathering hasits moment.
You know?
It's usually something small,something easy to miss if you're
not paying attention.
Someone says something at atable, someone shows up with too
many gifts, someone leans in fora hug when your child's like,
(00:22):
no.
And suddenly the room shifts.
In this episode, we're lookingat those moments.
The ones where love and goodintentions collide with your
boundaries.
We're gonna hear from parentswho left holiday gatherings
wondering if they handled itright, if they overreacted, if
(00:45):
they should have stayed silent,or maybe if they shouldn't have
stayed silent.
And we'll talk about what'sactually being taught in those
moments.
Not through lectures and rules,but through who steps in, who
absorbs the discomfort, andwho's expected to carry whose
feelings.
This is an episode about familyand about love and about
(01:09):
holidays and the mess that itthat is, and ultimately about
the invisible lines that appearwhen everybody finally gets in
the same room.
Let's get into it.
(01:37):
It's warming up right asChristmas is starting in
Chicago.
It's gonna be like 50 degrees onChristmas, which it's not
uncommon that it's warm onChristmas.
December is usually not thecoldest month in Chicago, but
this December has been reallycold, a lot of snow, which has
been so fun for my kids.
And I thought for sure we weregonna have a white Christmas.
(01:57):
And turns out looks like we'refor sure not gonna have a white
Christmas at this point.
But you know, snow is not whatChristmas is all about.
Presents are not what Christmasis all about.
Caroling is not what Christmasis all about.
Food is not what Christmas isall about.
If you are like most people, theholidays are about one thing,
(02:21):
especially people with kids, Ishould say.
I'm assuming that you have kidsor you have kids in your life,
or maybe you're a grandparent.
The holidays are about onething.
The intersection of parenting infront of the people who raised
you.
And I want to tell, start with astory, and it's not a specific
story, but just kind of ageneral feeling of how I feel
(02:41):
around the holidays.
Holidays are weird for me.
Uh, they're weird for me for acouple of reasons.
The first reason is because Ilove holidays.
Uh, not everybody does, but Ido.
I am the type of person whoreally like shows up and tries
to engage deeply.
And uh I like seeing my family.
(03:03):
I like being around people who Imiss.
I get to see some people aroundChristmas time who I don't often
get to see.
The best man at my wedding, mycousin, who lives on the uh
other side of the country.
Uh, he's around almost everyChristmas and he's got little
ones, and so it's fun to seethem.
And they're just growing up, andso it's it's really fun to see
them because it's like I'mwatching him become a dad too,
(03:26):
and his wife become a mom.
And uh I also get together withthe family who I live closer by
too.
I see them several times a year,but we always see each other on
the holidays.
And I love holidays for that,and I love holidays for their
traditions, and I love all ofthat, I love it for my kids, but
it's weird because I I'll tellyou, nobody thinks of me at
(03:48):
whole parent at thesegatherings, right?
Nobody even thinks of me asPastor John at these gatherings.
Like I am still Jonathan, theyoungest.
I'm not one person I'm olderthan is my cousin.
Maybe I'm giving it away thatI'm I like seeing him, but uh,
I'm like one of the youngestpeople in my generation.
My brothers are eight and tenyears older than me.
(04:08):
Most of my of my other cousinson both sides of my family are
much older than me.
I'm the youngest on my mom'sside, and I'm the second
youngest, along with my cousinon my my dad's side.
And so uh I'm I'm the babystill, and I see my aunts and
uncles, and some of them willhave a have an interesting thing
to say about my life.
(04:30):
Uh, they were excited last yearwhen I was gonna be on a TV
show, the one TV show that I'veever done.
But most of them like kind oflaugh at me and they they just
kind of joke.
And I remember one scenario, onespecific uh situation, I think
it was two years ago, wasn'tlast year, where my aunt was was
over, and I kind of mentionedsomething about how whole parent
(04:54):
was getting bigger and I had themembership or I was starting the
I don't know if I had juststarted the membership or I was
uh it was a year after I'dstarted the membership, but she
came early.
She arrived early, and and so itwas just kind of me standing
there with her, and I said,Well, yeah, there's you know,
there's people out there thatare looking to me for parenting
advice and and parentingeducation, and I get to use my
(05:18):
neuroscience stuff and mypastoral counseling stuff, and
they know that I went to schoolfor this stuff, they they
understand that aspect of it,but they also know that I have
young kids, and my kids were atthat exact moment kind of like
melting down, and one of themwas like biting another one, and
it was just not a good moment.
Like my my at that timethree-year-old was biting my at
(05:40):
that time seven-year-old, and itwas like, man, of course, of
course, it's because things areout of routine and and
everything's going bad.
And so I don't look like a greatparent in this moment.
Um, I think I actually handledthe situation well, but I didn't
handle it probably how it wasexpected that I would handle it,
which is, you know, hey, wedon't do that around here.
And if you do that again, I'mgonna give you X, Y, and Z
(06:01):
punishment, you're gonna have atimeout, or you're gonna be sent
to your room, and nobody's gonnawant to see you around.
I don't know.
I don't know what I was everwhat people were expecting me to
do, but I probably didn't liveup to that expectation.
And the conversation continuedon, and I kind of said, Yeah,
you know that people are lookingto me for this parenting advice
and stuff, and she laughed.
She laughed so hard.
Like, I don't I've not heard herlaugh that hard, maybe in like
(06:24):
years.
Um and she was like, Why wouldanybody want any advice from
you?
And I in that moment was just alittle kid again, like
desperately seeking theaffirmation of the people in the
room.
(06:45):
And it was at that moment that Ithen had to go and process uh
the situation had calmed downwith my kids in front of these
people, their sibling problemthat they had just had.
Somebody had taken something andI don't know who started it.
I know who finished it.
(07:05):
The three-year-old finished itby biting the seven-year-old
hard.
That's that's what I rememberabout the situation.
But I remember walking over andbeing like parenting in front of
these people is harder thanparenting in front of like
millions uh on the internet.
Parenting in front of one personor one room full of people who
(07:29):
watched you grow up is harder.
It's harder for me to regulatemyself, it's harder for me to do
the things that I believe in,it's harder for me to follow the
science, to follow theneuroscience in front of those
people than it is for me toadvocate for this stuff and get
shredded in the comments by ahundred thousand people.
Like, I don't care about that.
(07:49):
But the judgment of a familymember, boy, that can sting.
And so that was a long, longintro, probably too long for
this episode for everything wehave to call it cover.
But I just want you to hearfirst and foremost that it's
hard for all of us because we goback to being that little kid in
(08:13):
that relationship.
And a lot of the questions thatI'm answering today, I got I got
these from Instagram, by theway.
I put out a call, hey, I needyou know, questions for my
holiday episode.
What do you guys want to hearabout?
And and the number one mostasked for thing was like, we
want to hear about how do wedeal with relatives who like
(08:33):
don't align around the holidays.
We have to see these people, butwe we don't necessarily align
with them, they don't followboundaries, they don't, they
don't do gentle parenting, theydon't do whole parenting, they
don't, they haven't read yourbook, um, they don't seem to
have any interest in that.
How do we parent?
And so I just wanted to start bysaying, I I understand why
that's so hard because it's sohard for me.
(08:55):
And so if it's so hard for you,like welcome.
Welcome to the safe space.
Well, we're gonna talk about ittonight or today or whenever you
listen to this.
And there's no judgment for me.
There's no judgment for me ifyou don't do everything
perfectly, if you use way morescreens when your family is
(09:16):
around because you just don'tknow how to regulate.
There's no judgment for me ifyou snap at your kids more than
is typical because everything'sout of routine and you're
parenting in front of thesepeople.
There's no judgment for mebecause even though I think I,
in retrospect, I probablyhandled the biting situation
pretty well.
I I remember then talking tothem afterwards and feeling like
(09:37):
I couldn't really have theheart-to-heart conversation that
I needed to have, especiallywith the seven-year-old, about
his brother who had just bit himand how he didn't really
understand, but also he's stilllearning and all this stuff.
I remember being reallydistracted and feeling like,
yeah, I probably don't know whatI'm doing here, which is not a
good feeling to feel totallylacking in confidence in your
(10:00):
own home with your own kidsbecause it doesn't feel like
your home when the people fromyour childhood are there.
Um, and so without further ado,it's a long intro.
I'm sorry.
I want to get to my firstquestion from Kelsey.
Kelsey says, at familygatherings, my mom always
(10:20):
comments about how much my kidsare eating.
Who's going back for seconds?
Whether someone needs to slowdown on the sweets.
Sometimes it's phrased aspraise, sometimes it's phrased
as concern, but it's justunnecessary, in my opinion.
I'm trying to raise kids whohave healthy relationships with
food and their bodies.
(10:41):
I grew up with a lot of bodyshame and disoriented disordered
eating, but I'm trying to beintentional about not praising,
passing that on to my kids.
I've tried to gently redirecther in the moment, but it keeps
happening.
When I've addressed it directly,she always says that I'm
overreacting or projecting myown issues.
How do I intervene in real timewithout escalating things?
(11:03):
Kelsey, this is such a goodquestion.
And I think it gets to the heartof the boundaries that we're
talking about.
First, I just want to highlightfor you and give you the, if
you're looking for theammunition for why most experts,
both child dietitians orpediatric dietitians and
(11:24):
nutritionists, also just likechild psychologists and
psychiatrists, say that thistype of relationship with food,
you know, hey, you need to slowdown or you need to watch your
weight or like just constantlyhyperfixating about food, why
that's a problem.
Let me just lay out for youreally quickly.
Bang, bang, bang.
Number one, your job as aparent, number one, is to help
(11:47):
your child develop a healthyrelationship with food, full
stop.
That is your primary job as faras nutrition is concerned.
Unless your child issignificantly underweight or
they have some criticaldeficiency, that your
pediatrician is saying they needto X, Y, and Z.
And your pediatrician is puttingthat on you.
Hey, look, in your specificcase, your child needs to blah,
(12:07):
blah, blah, blah, blah, whateverit is.
Trust your pediatrician.
But beyond that, if your childis growing normally and they're
within a reasonably healthy likeweight and size and growth
pattern, which probably does notlook like what your mom maybe
wants it to look like, but butfor sure that that that it's
your pediatrician does not haveconcerns.
(12:30):
What you're saying, nothyper-fixating, hyper-focusing,
constantly commenting on bodiesand food, is the right way.
Because your number one job isto create a positive
relationship with food.
Say it last time.
Your number one job is to createa positive relationship with
food.
It's not for them to get alltheir veggies, it's not for them
to clean their plate, it's notfor them to, again, anything
(12:52):
else.
Positive relationship with food.
When you constantly comment andyou have this running commentary
about food and bodies, it doesthree things.
Number one, it teachessurveillance, which is that
everyone is watching andeverybody's judging me for how
much I eat or how little I eat,but I'm just I'm under a
constant threat of monitoring.
(13:13):
Not a healthy relationship withfood to feel constantly
surveilled while you're eating,like everybody's watching you.
Two, it assigns moral value,right, to something that is
amoral.
The act of eating is amoral.
It is not moral, it is notimmoral.
Eating more or less does not saysomething about who a person is
intrinsically.
(13:35):
There is no moral value toconsuming calories.
It is sometimes an unhealthy,maladaptive coping mechanism
when you have disordered eating,which you said was a struggle
for you.
A lot of that comes from moralvalue being assigned to body
(13:56):
types, but especially toconsumption of food.
And number three, and I thinkthis is probably the thing
that's most overlooked, it justdisconnects kids from their
internal hunger and full cues.
Like healthy relationship withfood looks like I eat until I'm
full and then I stop eating.
That's that's a healthyrelationship with food.
(14:17):
Your hunger, you're full.
You like this, you'reexperiencing pleasure through
eating, satisfaction, right?
Like all of these are what yourgoal is for eating.
If you have constant commentaryrunning, it just disrupts all of
those things.
And so if you're looking for thehere is why, mom, number one, I
(14:40):
don't want my kids to feel likethey're being watched.
Number two, there in my opinion,there is no moral value to food,
eating or not eating.
Like there, that is not a moralchoice that our kids are making.
And number three, I am trustingthe science that when you
constantly distract kids fromtheir internal cues about when
(15:01):
they're hungry, when they'refull, by saying you should be
more hungry or you should bemore full, or you should stop
eating, or you should keepeating, that that is not healthy
for them and that it createsdisordered eating.
And I'm not projecting my ownissues, I'm telling you exactly
what I've been told by mentalhealth experts, by pediatric
dietitians, by mental healthcounselors, by uh child
(15:23):
psychologists.
And all of them seem to agreeabout this.
I mean, there are in the worldof wellness and nutrition,
you're gonna get a lot of peoplewho kind of come out of nowhere
with their crazy schemes andthoughts and stuff.
It's crazy how the consensus isreally pretty solid on this,
that the goal for childhood isnot like getting enough
(15:45):
cruciferous vegetables, which isby the way, like broccoli and
leafy greens and stuff likethat.
We used to think that that waslike, oh, you gotta do that.
Like I remember sitting there,you gotta eat your vegetables to
grow up big and strong, right?
Um, and and we had multiplepeople, by the way, Kelsey, and
if you're listening to this, askabout something related to my my
parents make comments aboutfood.
And so it's and it's notunusual.
(16:07):
My grandmother used to makecomments about what everybody
was eating and whether we wereeating more, or here, take more,
take more, or oh, you don't needthat, you know.
And and I hate to say it, butoften there is gender play at
play here where our little boyswere telling them, Oh, you need
to keep eating, you're a growingboy.
And our little girls weresaying, You need to start
watching your weight.
Seven-year-old, like, what arewe doing, guys?
(16:29):
And so the the old oldergeneration just needs to shut up
about it.
And it's this is a place whereyou know you have to intervene,
but your question is a is avalid one.
How do you intervene withoutescalating things?
I think number one, you justaddress it up front.
I one of the things that I'mgonna like continually come back
to here is that one of thestruggles for us as grown
(16:53):
children, everybody's a grown-upkid, right?
When your parents or yourin-laws or your grandparents are
in the room, all of a sudden youdon't feel like a grown-up kid
anymore, you just feel like akid again.
And this is a common thingacross most people, like like
many people experience this.
This is not just a me projectingmy issues onto this.
This is a common thing that I'veworked with many parents who go
(17:16):
through this phenomenon, feelinglike I'm back in I'm back in
trouble again.
Because I, you know, my parentscan still get me in trouble,
even though I'm 30 years old or35 years old, whatever.
Um, on the contrary, on thecontrary, oftentimes parents uh
from that generation, boomersand you know, the greatest
(17:36):
generation, whatever, they needto be told who's boss.
And they're gonna respect you alot more for that.
So just come right out and sayit up front.
Hey, mom, we're not makingcomments about how she eats.
And if we are, then we're gonnahave a problem.
And what I said in the intro, Ithink is really important here.
A lot of times we don't want toget in trouble with our parents,
(18:00):
and so essentially we hang ourkids out to dry.
We like let them receive thosenegative comments, and we're
just like, oh, it's just a yeah,but I don't want to, you know,
go in and you know, I don't wantto get in trouble.
Like, wait, it's like when yourbrother's getting in trouble and
you're growing up, you don'twant to like step in and be like
defend him because then you'regonna be in trouble.
Like, that's what it feels like.
Your parents your parents arekind of coming down on your
(18:21):
kids.
It can feel like I don't want toget in in between this,
especially when it's somethingwhere it's like, do I really
need to make this a big dealright now?
Do I have to make this a thing?
I think, I think in this case,you know, let's cut this off
before it becomes a biggerthing.
You didn't say how old your kidsare, but I'm just assuming by
the wording of the questionthey're younger.
Like, let's cut this off beforethis becomes a big thing.
(18:44):
Here, here's exactly what youcan say.
Number one, you can say, we'rehelping our kids to listen to
their bodies so we don't labelfood or portions.
We don't have common, we don'thave commentary about it.
But that's what we're doing.
Or you can say to your child,and this is almost riskier.
(19:08):
I'm gonna be honest.
For some parents, this will bethis will be seen as
disrespectful and defiant.
They'll want you to address itwith them.
If you feel that they're justnot taking the hint, you can
literally look directly at yourchild and you can say, You're
allowed to eat until your bodyfeels full, and then you don't
have to eat anymore, and no onecan make you eat.
(19:29):
And you can just name that andjust call it what it is, and
that can create some issues, butI'll be totally transparent.
I had a a run in with my mom,not even over my kid, over
another kid in our family, w inFebruary of last year, or maybe
March.
(19:49):
And uh I kind of felt likebacking down, and I was like,
you know what, though, like it'seither me or it's this kid.
And I just stood my ground.
And it was brutal.
But even though it was brutal,like I can't think the kid, the
kid wasn't in the crosshairsanymore.
(20:10):
And my mom is like really goodabout this stuff.
She's not usually this person.
And it wasn't about like you'reeating too much or it's body
image thing.
It was it was about like ummanners.
And I was like, do they reallyhave to have manners?
And she was like, Yeah.
And I was like, Ah, do theythough?
And it was not a pretty sight.
I mean, it was it's prettybrutal.
(20:32):
Like everybody in the room waslike, dude, cut the tension with
a knife.
But I think that that's it'sworthy to do.
So, how do you intervene withoutescalating things?
You can address it up front sothat it doesn't become a whole
thing over the dinner table.
And you can also just prepareyour kid.
Hey, you know what?
Grandma says weird stuffsometimes about how much you
(20:53):
eat.
I can't have to listen to that.
I don't listen to her about thateither.
In our family, we eat untilwe're full.
And then we stop eating.
If grandma doesn't like that,that's her family.
That's not our problem.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Let me take a quick break before I get to question
number two.
Jon @WholeParent (23:27):
Question number two comes again from
Instagram.
These are all from Instagram, Ithink, because they are all a
part of that uh back and forththat we did.
I responded to people and theygave me these in the DMs.
My in-laws comes from Patrick.
My in-laws are very involved inour life.
They, on the surface, they'reloving and generous, but they
(23:49):
don't always respect boundaries.
Two things can be true.
We can have parents who are.
I'm sorry to interrupt thequestion, but one of the real
challenges in dealing withfamily members is like we can
love them and we can know thatthey're flawed, and we can know
that like on the whole, it's agood thing that they're around.
(24:10):
We are presented often withthis, these, this binary of like
either your parents are perfectand you like let them watch your
kids and like you just trustthem intrinsically, and they
they're the greatest parentsthat you've ever had and they're
the greatest grandparents, orlike you go no contact and you
never see these people.
I don't think that those are theonly options.
(24:30):
If if you have to make it anoption to cut ties based on what
I say in this episode, um thatis your call.
It's not my call.
I I doubt that that that uhyou're gonna make that choice
based on what I say, but butthat's a call that you make,
it's not a call that I'm helpingyou make.
That said, I think most oftenwe're in the messy middle.
(24:53):
And the messy middle is on thesurface, our parents are loving
and generous, and they don'talways respect boundaries.
Okay, back to the question.
My wife and I have been clearand consistent about certain
parenting boundaries, thingslike screen time, discipline,
sugar, routines.
In the moment, they seem toagree.
They nod, they say theyunderstand, and then as soon as
(25:15):
we're not around, they doexactly what we asked them not
to do.
This time of year, it shows upmost around gifts.
We've asked them to keep thingssimple, not overwhelm the kids.
Specifically, we asked them toonly get one gift for each kid.
But I already know that thisrequest will be annoying,
ignored.
We try and hold the line, but itoften turns into this is just
(25:38):
the type of grandparent that Iwant to be, or you're taking
away my way of showing love.
I'm exhausted from feeling likeI constantly have to choose
between protecting our parentingchoices and keeping the peace.
How do you hold boundaries within-laws who don't see boundaries
as valid without blowing up theentire relationship?
Great question, Patrick.
(26:00):
I want to begin by understandingwhat boundaries are.
Boundaries are, in the words ofBrene Brown, what is okay and
what is not okay.
If you say something is not okayfor your child, that is a
boundary.
Parents in-laws who choose toviolate those boundaries need to
(26:25):
be held accountable for theirviolation of those boundaries.
Parents and in-laws who violateour boundaries need to be held
accountable for thoseviolations.
And I don't know how what thataccountability looks like in
your house, but true just sayingwe're going to keep the peace by
(26:46):
ignoring the boundary oversteponly permits further boundary
incursions.
I think I cut this entirely outof the book.
I might have had it still in thebook.
I don't remember.
But one of the stories that Ihad in the book initially, in
the initial drafts, if it's notstill in there, was about
boundaries.
And it was about my friend fromuh my first job out of college,
(27:13):
and she had these this sharedbackyard.
There was no fence in thebackyard.
And there was this property lineboundary that they had and with
their neighbor.
And they noticed that theirneighbor had like built a
vegetable patch that kind ofcrossed the boundary a little
(27:34):
bit.
And they had just moved in andthey were like, We're not gonna,
we're not gonna make a big dealabout this.
This is like an old guy.
He's like, he's likes ustomatoes.
We don't, we're not putting up afence.
Like, who cares if like one rowof tomatoes is technically on
our side of the boundary?
And over time, that boundaryincursion turned into more
(27:55):
boundary incursions.
Specifically, the culmination ofthis is that he built a full
shed like a foot and a half overthe boundary line.
And so he built a shed next tohis garden.
And, you know, his garden likeexpanded into their yard more,
and then he built a shed next tothe garden.
Meanwhile, her kids are gettingolder, and her kids want to
(28:17):
start playing like backyardbaseball, and they get a dog and
they go, We got to put up afence.
So they call the fencingcompany, and the fencing company
runs a survey and they go, Yeah,you know, this guy is over the
property line.
And they're like, Yeah, we know,but like, can we just like put
it in a little bit?
And they're like, Yeah, no,that's not how this works.
(28:38):
I mean, we could put the fencein further, but but then you're
gonna, it's gonna look weird.
You're gonna have to like buildit around this stuff, and and
really he has no right to be onthis property right here.
And they're like, Yeah, but wedidn't tell him, you know, about
his tomatoes, and then he builtthis shed and he didn't ask.
And he's like, It's not yourfault.
He built an unpermitted shedwithout asking, like, getting a
plot of survey, that's not yourfault.
(28:59):
And they're going back andforth.
So finally they tell him,they're like, hey, we we're
gonna have to, you know, wegotta ask you, like, move the
shed or figure out how to moveit because like they can't build
the fence here, they need tobuild it right here.
And by the way, your tomatoesare over the line, so like we're
gonna lose road tomatoes.
And the guy's like, I'm notmoving anything.
They have to go to get a courtorder and then tear down this
guy's shed, ruins therelationship forever.
(29:22):
Like, cannot have a relationshipwith his neighbor ever again.
If you live next to somebody whojust absolutely hates your guts,
it's not a pleasant thing.
And I'm not gonna say that itwas their fault entirely, but
there is some blame to be passedon the fact that they did
nothing about the early boundaryincursions that were not a big
deal.
(29:43):
Like, they did nothing about thetomatoes and they did nothing
about the guarding going in.
And that failing to hold thatboundary when they knew that it
had been crossed and not comingforward.
I mean, when they bought thehouse, they said this guy's
encroaching on your propertyline.
You have to get a survey whenyou buy a house.
They said, this guy's over theline.
You should tell him that he'sover the line.
And they're like, ah, we don'twant to bother him.
(30:04):
We don't want to make him mad.
We want to be good neighbors.
Turns out you ruined therelationship.
You blew it up.
And the reason that you blew itup is because you failed to hold
boundaries effectively when theboundaries were still small.
So here's what I'll say.
As I said before, I think thisgeneration, this older
(30:26):
generation, they understand theyou're the parent, take some
charge.
They they want to, they're allup in my comments frequently,
telling me how I'm too soft onkids or I'm giving parents
permission to be too permissive.
And um, you know, parents needto be their kids' parents, not
their friends, and they need totake charge, and they need to
(30:47):
kids need to learn morediscipline, and kids need to
learn more respect, and kidsneed to, you know, have be
obedient to their parents, andthat's in the Bible, or
whatever, right?
Whatever they want to say.
Um, you can turn that backaround and go, hey, I know that
you know that I'm their parent.
I know that you know that I'mtheir dad.
(31:08):
I know that you know that she'stheir mom.
As their mom, as their dad, weare making the call, and it's
not your call.
This isn't the type ofgrandparent you want to be.
I'm sorry.
It's not your call.
It's our call.
So you can get them one gift oryou can get them no gifts.
You can do no gifts.
(31:29):
That's cool.
We can do no gifts this year.
If you feel like one gift showslike too little of your love,
you can get them a bigexperience.
You can get them an expensivegift to keep you.
You can get the offer themalternatives, but you can't get
them more than one gift.
And if you do, we're gonna havea problem.
We're gonna have an issue.
We're gonna have to address thisboundary violation.
Because here's the thing thatsmall boundary violation does
(31:52):
become a bigger boundaryviolation.
When they turn it back and useit, well, you're not letting me
show my love to these kids.
I have not no problem with youshowing love.
You just can't show love in thisway.
I'm not going to ask my kid to,we're not gonna uproot
everything and upend everythingso that you can show love in
this way.
Like, this is not what we look,we don't view uh consumerism as
(32:18):
a as a as a thing of uh uhindication of your love.
And we don't want to startgiving our kids the idea that
they that that it is a measureof love.
I understand why you'reexhausting for constantly having
to choose protecting yourparenting choices versus keeping
your peace, Patrick.
What I'm saying is you will bemore exhausted if you don't
(32:41):
protect your parenting choices.
And this is, I usually do notgive such harsh advice on the
podcast, but we are dealing withgrown-ups here.
And just because your yourin-laws' emotional dysregulation
is not your concern.
Your children's development andemotional dysregulation is your
concern.
Now, within reason, right?
(33:03):
Like you can't control how yourkid feels.
Sometimes you have to let theemotions just you have to learn
to surf their emotional waves.
But when your in-laws or yourparents show up and they're
trying to guilt you or trying tosh, you know, do this
narcissistic, like emotionalmanipulation tactics, I'm sorry,
(33:25):
I'm not here for it.
And if they cannot hold respectin this relationship, because
what they're saying to you rightnow is that they don't respect
you.
What they're saying to you rightnow is, yeah, you are the
parent, and we don't actuallyrespect that.
And I think they need to learnhow to respect that.
And I think if that takes aconversation, hopefully not in
(33:47):
front of the kids.
I mean, sometimes it has to be,but but hopefully, this is a
conversation that you can have.
You pull them aside and you go,hey, we need to have a chat over
here.
Kids go play in the basement.
We need to go have a chat rightnow.
Hey, that was inappropriate.
We're not doing that anymore.
You need to respect ourparenting choices, or we're
gonna make different choices.
And you're not gonna like thosechoices.
(34:07):
It's not a threat, it's apromise.
Like, name it and hold theboundary.
Not because your parents aren'tor your in-laws are not loving
and generous, but because thatis not the whole story here, and
we need to hold the boundary.
(34:29):
If it is not okay that they areviolating these routines, then
they have become untrustworthycaregivers for you.
And untrustworthy caregivers arenot people who you want with
your kids.
I want you to bring them backinto trust.
And I don't think that this hasto be a punitive thing.
I think that oftentimes theolder generation who only knows
(34:51):
punishment will try and make itpunitive.
Well, you're punishing me.
I'm not punishing you.
I'm anti-punishment.
I'm telling you what theboundary is and I'm asking you
to respect it.
And if you can't respect it,then I have to make different
choices.
That's not a threat, that isjust the facts of the matter.
If you have to write it outbeforehand, do it.
(35:14):
Instead of saying somethinglike, please stop buying so many
gifts, start saying things like,We're gonna be keeping the extra
gifts at your house.
We're gonna donate them, we'regonna space them out after the
holidays, but they're not openin all of them today.
(35:38):
Instead of saying, you know, weneed to when they say something
like, We're you know, you'retaking away our our way of
showing love, you just say, Weknow that you're trying to show
them love.
We're just being intentionalthat love is not expressed this
way with our kids.
Just very clearly.
(35:59):
And like I said, you can offerthem alternatives, experience
gate-based gifts, whatever.
But I think, and and I this Ispent the longest time on this
answer in this podcast episode,because I think this
encapsulates so many differentpieces.
Because it's not a a like aspecific thing that we really
can't like handle, it's not it'snot a toxic um like body image
(36:22):
related thing or personalautonomy thing, which we're
gonna talk about now.
It's it's just like people notrespecting your boundaries, and
I think that you have to I thinkyou have to make people respect
your boundaries.
Because the other thing here isthat your kids see this and they
learn that some people are notdon't have to respect your
boundaries, and that's not alesson that you want them to
(36:43):
learn.
You don't want you don't wantyour parent you don't want your
kids to learn that just becausethey're somebody who's family,
they're allowed to do whateverthey want to you.
It's a hard lesson to unlearn.
SPEAKER_01 (36:57):
I'm still learning unlearning that one.
Okay.
Little break.
10 out of three.
Jon @WholeParent (37:11):
Question three.
Uh, I did not ask you if I wasallowed to share your name, and
so I'm not gonna share yourname.
This parent said, my daughterdidn't want to give my mom a hug
goodbye.
But instead of respecting that,my mom got visibly upset and
really pushy about it until mydaughter was literally burying
her face into my leg.
Later, when I brought it up tomy mom, she doubled down and
(37:34):
said that my daughter hurt herfeelings and that I'm teaching
her to be rude, and that whydon't I care about her feelings
too?
What am I supposed to say tothat?
I think the personal autonomypiece for kids is a good place
(37:55):
for us to wrap up this episodebecause I think this is one of
those we we we had a firstquestion about values, we had a
second question aboutboundaries, and now we have a
third question about respectingkids and treating kids with
dignity and as full humans whoare allowed to make their own
choices.
And I think it's a good place toend because this is the third
(38:17):
place that people struggle.
I had a very similar commentthat was almost identical to
this, where the mom said that uhthe the parent who didn't get
hugs said that she was being ameanie.
Like this was like she said shecalled my daughter a meanie.
You're being a meanie to likethis whatever, four-year-old,
five-year-old kid.
(38:39):
The thing that we have to remindourselves is that just because
our parents say something doesnot make it true, your daughter
was not being rude.
She was communicating herboundaries and her desires.
Not your boundaries, but herboundaries.
Burying her face in your leg isher way of saying, I need to get
back to my safe home basebecause this does not feel safe
(39:01):
to me.
I made a statement, I don't wantto give a hug right now.
And now, in the moment, when anadult who has power over that
child because they are biggerand stronger, and they can
leverage manipulation, pushespast that, the issue stops
becoming about manners.
It becomes whose feelingsmatter.
(39:24):
Does the adult's feelings mattermore than a child's bodily
autonomy?
And I think the answer to thatis resoundingly no.
Unfortunately, this has notalways been true in our society
or in the way in which we parentkids, like like very frequently,
abuse, outright abuse has beenjustified by saying, well, like
(39:47):
kid doesn't really understandit.
Like we're not gonna work, butwe're not gonna go and get uncle
so-and-so thrown in jail overthis.
We just need to keep a bettercloser eye on him.
And it goes unreported.
And that person continues toabuse, and that child goes
without counseling and therapythat they need.
And and all of this comes fromthis idea that children should
(40:09):
not be able to or should not bepermitted to say no.
And I'm gonna tell you rightnow, I am a strong advocate for
this is how we groom childrenfor not only abuse now, but
abuse later.
It is how we you know, you know,like, why don't you give me a
hug?
Don't you love me?
Becomes abusive partners later,saying, Why don't you do this
(40:31):
with me right now, even thoughyou're not in the mood, even
though you don't feel like it,even though you don't want to?
Don't you love me?
These types of emotionalmanipulations take root.
And I know it's not that I I'mI'm making a mountain out of
what many people feel as amoleho.
It's just a hug.
Come on, why are you being sucha whatever about it?
I'm being that way because thechild very clearly made it that.
(40:53):
I I don't think that we need tolike if you offer a kid a hug
and they're kind of likeambivalent about it and they're
kind of like, ah, whatever,fine.
And then they kind of like don'treally hug you back, but they're
like, whatever, I don't reallycare.
That's how my kids aresometimes.
Um, I think that that's onething.
I don't think you need to makethat like the world and
anything, but why do people needto hug kids?
This is a strange thing to me.
(41:13):
I don't feel like the need tohug every kid that I know um in
order to show them that I amaffectionate about them, even
kids who are related to me.
I don't, you know, I don't makemy kids hug me when you know
when I feel close to them and Imight ask for a hug and if they
say no, that's that's it, right?
I might turn it into a gamesometimes.
Be like, oh, you can't hug me.
Such a just just a little, Ijust want a little hug.
(41:35):
I don't want a big hug.
My kids come over, give me a bighug.
Again, that's a that's a game.
But we I don't I'm not trying tomake this into like something
that it's not, but the secondthat the child turns away and
goes, like, mom, get me out ofhere.
Okay, that that's when we knowthat it's it's drawn past this
point.
I got in big trouble.
My most viral video early onTikTok was this girl smashing
(41:56):
her phone with a hammer andshe's like melting down while
she's doing it.
She's a teenager, maybe 13, andshe's uh she's like crying,
weeping, like hyperventilatingas she's being forced by her
mother's boyfriend, I think, wasthe End of the video, mother's
boyfriend making her smash herown cell phone with a hammer.
And I said, This is abuse.
And many people said, How couldthis possibly be abuse?
(42:18):
John, what do you know?
You don't know what you'retalking about.
I said, It's abuse because lookat their face.
It's abuse because look at howshe's responding.
I don't care what you do to aperson.
I mean, I do.
Obviously, there's many thingsthat are abuse.
I shouldn't have said that thatwas a dumb thing to say.
It's not always what you do to aperson that's obviously abuse.
It's how they respond.
If a person feels deeply unsafeand and emotionally distraught
(42:43):
by you demanding a hug as theyleave, they're not being a
meanie, they're not being rude.
You at that point have put themin a position where they are
distressed.
And so I want you to rememberthat no child is ever
responsible for managing anadult's emotions.
(43:03):
And you are not responsible asyour mother's child for managing
her emotions either.
There's gonna be a whole notherepisode someday all about
parents who try and do rolereversal later in life, where
they kind of do this, like,well, now that I'm 60 and you're
(43:27):
30, why don't you take care ofme a little bit?
Parents aren't allowed to dothat.
That's not healthy, ever.
If you find yourself in thatrelationship, something has gone
very wrong.
That's not how parent-childrelationships are supposed to
function.
I understand when your parent isdying of cancer.
I've been there.
I cared for my dad when he wasdying of cancer.
(43:50):
At no point did he ask me to behis dad.
That would have beeninappropriate.
And so the problem is many of usgrew up managing our parents'
emotions because we controlledour behavior and we controlled
our emotional reactions tothings in order to not set them
off.
So all of this to say, you arenot responsible for her
(44:12):
emotions.
Your daughter is certainly notresponsible for her emotions.
And I would interveneimmediately, if that ever
happens again, and make itawkward if it has to be.
You take the awkward hit.
This is exactly what I did.
It was again, it was notsomething that was this bad.
It was like a manners-relatedthing.
(44:33):
But I saw an adult relativegetting into it with a kid and
going, like, you need to stopdoing this thing.
It's gross and I don't like it.
And the kid was like two.
And I was like, Hey, how aboutyou pick on somebody your own
size?
And it was bad and awkward andterrible.
(44:53):
But at least it was awkward andterrible for me, and not for the
two-year-old.
I think you intervene and youput yourself in harm's way if
necessary.
Put yourself, your body betweenyour daughter and your mom.
I think that's the right thingto do.
You correct the message withyour child afterwards.
Hey, you did not do anythingwrong.
You are allowed to choose whoyou hug and who touches you, and
(45:15):
who touches your body.
And if you don't want to touchsomebody, or you don't want
somebody to touch you, you cantell them.
And that is not that is not bad.
That is good.
And if anybody ever touches youand they're not supposed to,
when you say no, you tell meright away, and we I will make
sure it never happens again withthat person.
And then clearly address it withyour mom after the fact outside
(45:37):
the moment.
Because I promise you, in thatmoment, when you step in
between, when you do all the sheis dysregulated, she is not
ready, and she is not in alearning receptive state, she's
gone.
And so you have to address itwith her, but it's not gonna
happen in that moment, not well.
So come back later and say, hey,look, I'm not gonna allow you to
(45:59):
guilt my kids about physicalaffection, I'm not gonna allow
you to demean them aboutphysical not wanting to hug you,
I'm not gonna allow you to callthem names like meanie.
If that choice is not going tobe respected, then we are going
to limit our contact with you.
And she's not gonna hug youever.
(46:21):
Even if it hurts your feelings.
Make it real clear.
We're not doing this.
We're not playing those games.
Don't do it in the moment.
Do it after the fact.
It's just way better.
But there is no justificationfor making a child feel bad for
not wanting to hug a relative.
(46:41):
Ever.
You can have that conversationlater.
Yeah, you know, grandma camefrom a different time, and she
probably had to hug people shedidn't want to hug, and now she
feels like she should be able tomake people hug her who don't
want to hug her, but we're notdoing that anymore.
We live in a better time now,and we're not gonna do that.
A little adult discomfort inthat moment is teaching your
(47:03):
child a valuable lesson.
Your body is yours, nobody isallowed to touch it, touch you.
Mom will always come and protectyou when you need me.
And love does not require you toviolate your own boundaries.
And that should be the title ofthis whole holiday episode.
It has not been a cheery one.
We have not talked aboutbeautiful, warm, and fuzzy
(47:27):
things, but it's because that'snot what you asked me to talk
about on this episode.
You all came forward and yousaid, This is what we want to
hear about, John.
And so that's the episode that Imade.
And it really should be LoveDoes Not Require You to Violate
Your Boundaries.
That should be the title.
It's not going to be, but youknow that that's what it is.
Okay, I've already gone toolong.
(47:49):
I'm over time.
Anyway, hope you have a goodholiday week.
See you on the next one.
Thank you for your timelistening to the whole parent
podcast today.
I hope you got something out ofit.
I have a couple quick favors toask of you as we end the
episode.
(48:09):
The first one is to jump over onwhatever podcast platform that
you are listening to right nowand rate this show five stars.
You'll notice there are a lot offive-star ratings on this show,
whether that's on Spotify orApple Music or Apple Podcasts.
We have a ton of five-starratings, and it helps our
podcast get out to more peoplethan almost any other parenting
(48:31):
podcast out there.
And so it's a really quick thingthat you can do if you have 15
or 20 seconds.
And if you have an additional 30seconds, I'd love to read a
review from you.
I read all the reviews that comethrough.
If some of you particularly likeone part of the podcast or you
like when I talk about somethingor whatever, imagine that you're
writing that review directly tome.
The second thing that you can dois go and send this episode to
(48:55):
somebody in your life who youthink could use it.
Think about all the parents inyour life.
Think about your friends, yourfamily members who could use a
little bit of help parenting.
It's vulnerable to share anepisode of a parenting podcast
with them.
I get it.
But imagine how much better yourlife is as a result of listening
to this podcast, of following meon social media, of getting the
(49:16):
emails that I send out.
You can share that with someoneelse too.
And so I encourage you, just goover, shoot them a quick text,
share this episode with them, orshare another episode that you
feel like is particularlyrelevant to them.
The last thing you can do is godown to the link show notes at
the bottom.
And like I said, in themid-roll, you can subscribe on
Substack.
(49:37):
It's$5 a month or$50 a year.
Uh I don't have that many peopledoing it, and yet the people who
are doing it have made thispossible.
And so if you like this episode,if you like all of the episodes,
if you want them to continue,the only way that I can keep
making them is through donorsupport, free will donations to
(49:58):
the podcast.
Please, please, please, please,as you're thinking about the end
of this year, as you're thinkingabout your charitable giving, I
know I'm not a 501c3.
You can't write it off on yourtaxes, but if you'd like to give
me a little gift to just saythank you for what you've done
this year, the best way to dothat is over on Substack.
Again,$5 a month,$50 a year.
(50:18):
It's not going to break thebank.
It's probably less than youspend on coffee every week.
Definitely less than you spendon coffee every week.
Maybe uh less than you spend onalmost anything, right?
Five bucks a month is very, verysmall, but it goes a long way
when it's multiplied by all ofthe different people who listen
to the podcast.
It's sending that over to me.
I get all of that money.
(50:39):
It's just my way of being ableto produce the podcast, spend
money on equipment, spend moneyon subscription fees, hosting
fees for the podcast, all ofthat stuff.
Email server fees, all that.
So if you're willing to do that,I would love it.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode, and I'll see
you next time.
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