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September 5, 2024 24 mins

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In this episode of The Wild Photographer, host Court Whelan explores the evolving role of physical filters in the age of digital photography. While many photographers rely heavily on post-processing software like Photoshop and Lightroom, Court argues that there are still certain filters that remain essential for achieving specific effects that digital tools can't replicate. Whether you're a seasoned pro or a photography enthusiast, this episode provides valuable insights into which filters you should consider keeping in your kit.

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Court Whelan, a seasoned wildlife, nature, and landscape photographer with over 20 years of experience, hosts The Wild Photographer. Court is passionate about sharing his extensive knowledge of photography gear, techniques, and tips with his audience, helping them capture stunning images across the globe. His expertise is grounded in real-world experience, making his advice practical and valuable for photographers of all levels.

Expect to Learn:

  • The historical significance of filters in photography and how digital tools have replaced many traditional filters.
  • The essential filters that remain relevant today, including UV, polarizing, and neutral density filters.
  • Tips on choosing the right UV and polarizing filters to protect your lens and enhance your photos.
  • How to achieve the popular "silky water" effect in bright conditions using neutral density filters.
  • Why certain modern filters, like black mist and gold mist filters, are gaining popularity, especially in cinematography.

Episode Breakdown with Timestamps:

  • [00:00:00] - Introduction and Sponsor Shoutout:
    • Court introduces the episode topic and thanks the podcast sponsor, Lens Rentals.
  • [00:03:00] - The History of Filters in Photography:
    • A look back at the traditional use of filters and their evolution in the digital age.
  • [00:07:20] - The UV Filter: Protecting Your Investment:
    • Court explains the importance of UV filters and how they act as a protective layer for your lenses.
  • [00:11:45] - Polarizing Filters: Do You Need One?
    • The benefits of using a polarizing filter, especially for landscape photography, and tips for selecting a high-quality one.
  • [00:18:10] - Neutral Density Filters: Essential for Silky Water Effects:
    • Court discusses how neutral density filters allow for long exposure shots in daylight, creating stunning effects with moving water.
  • [00:25:30] - Graduated Neutral Density Filters: Are They Still Relevant?
    • An exploration of graduated ND filters and how modern software might replace their use.
  • [00:30:40] - Emerging Filters: Black Mist and Gold Mist:
    • A look at the rising trend of
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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Wild Photographer.
I'm your host, court Whalen,and today we are talking about
filters.
Do you actually need anyfilters anymore?
But before we get into that, Iwanted to point out a couple of
quick things.
One is that if you are enjoyingthis podcast whether this is
the first one or a multi-timelistener the very best thing you
can do to help me, to help theshow, is to leave a review and

(00:21):
perhaps leave up to a five-starreview and, more importantly,
leave some sort of comment thatreally, really helps the show.
Whether it's on Spotify, itunes, youtube, you name it, it does
more than you think.
So thank you in advance fordoing that.
I also want to thank thesponsor of our podcast,
lensrentalscom, and I've saidthis before, but the reason I'm
partnering with them isprimarily because I love

(00:42):
LensRrentalscom.
They're absolutely incredible.
It's such a huge tool to thephotographer to be able to rent
gear, whether it's high-end gearor gear you just don't know if
you need.
Not only can you rent it for aweek or a day or two weeks, but
they also give you the option tobuy it afterwards, which is a
really cool test before you buyscenario.
So I really like them.
Just big shout out tolensrentalscom Thank you for

(01:10):
sponsoring the podcast, and ifyou use wild photographer 15,
they will give you 15% off.
So it's a pretty cool way, andwe also get to track that as
part of the show to show whatsort of awesome reach we have to
our dedicated photographers outthere.
So thank you so much in advancefor all of that.
So on to the show.
Filters Do you actually needthem anymore?
Let's start by talking aboutthe history of filters.
They are a topic, they are athing in photography.
A lot of times nowadays,especially with the younger

(01:32):
folks, they're probably thinkingabout filters being like
Photoshop filters, but they haveroots in the single lens reflex
world, in the film camera world, where you actually screw a
filter on.
There's still a lot of optionsto do that today and we're going
to go over each and every oneof those and kind of give the
pros and cons my personalopinion as to why they might be
useful or why I, why I hate them.

(01:52):
I don't mean to be so one orthe other, but I do have
opinions about pretty much everysingle filter out there.
But back in the day they wereyour warming filters, they were
your cooling filters, they wereyour golden light filters.
The thing is is like so much ofwhat that once was is indeed
done by Photoshop.
So carrying around a hugebackpack full of filters yes, I

(02:14):
had a huge purpose back in theday, but it really isn't that
important anymore.
But there are a handful offilters you absolutely want to
consider, and there is onefilter that you probably have on
your camera right now, or, ifyou don't have it, you should
really think about investing.
Every single lens that I ownhas this filter.
So let's start off with thatmost important filter.
It's the UV filter.

(02:35):
This is the most benign kind ofmilk toast filter.
It doesn't do much, it's not.
You know the UV filteringaspect isn't this game changing
thing when you take photos ofcertain light.
It's not going to alter thelight really at all.
Primarily, what a UV filter isis it's a protector for your
lens.
I can't tell you how many timesmy UV filter will have a little

(02:57):
scratch on it, just from yearsof wear and tear.
Yet my main lens itself theactual element, the glass there
is completely crystal cleanafter years of use.
So UV filter is actually prettyinexpensive.
It's relatively benign.
They can be something like $20,$30, $40.
Yes, there are companies thatwill sell you $100, $200, $400,

(03:19):
$500 UV filters, and I'm surethey are a little bit better.
But you can get a really,really good UV filter for like
$40 or $50.
And oftentimes what I look foris first that price range.
There are a few brands that Ireally look for, like Hoya, b&w,
singray is kind of like the topof the line, but something in

(03:39):
the $40 to $50 range.
And then the additional thingthat I look for.
It has some sort of acronymlike MRC, like multi-reflection
coating or something of thatnature.
This is not critical.
Again, the primary function ofa UV filter is to do nothing,
just protect your lens.
So don't go too heavy into this.
But oftentimes themanufacturers they brag about
having this little extra coatingon the filter itself.

(04:01):
I think it's worth the extra$10 or $20 compared to the
uncoated version.
So I think it's a really nicething to have.
Maybe it's just placebo effect,but I think maybe it keeps my
lens a little bit cleaner so Idon't have to wipe it off quite
as much.
Okay, so now the next filter.
I'm kind of going slightly inorder of importance here.
The next one that I think a lotof people have, or at least

(04:23):
consider, is going to be yourpolarizing filter.
So this is again one of thefilters that made its way
through the photoshop era and isactually still quite useful,
primarily because the physicalactivity of a polarizer is one
of the few things you cannot doin photoshop itself.
So the way a polarizer works isactually kind of like see

(04:43):
through venetian blinds for yourlens, so light only enters your
lens, your sensor, through acertain plane.
Don't worry about thescientific technicalities of it.
The basic gist is that you can,you will be able to reduce
reflections on water, reducereflections on windows, etc.
Etc.
Now, that's not really theprimary purpose in my mind.

(05:04):
As a nature wildlife, landscapephotographer, what I like about
polarizers is that they helpclouds pop.
They create that silver lining,they create that awesome puffy
look of the big cumulus cloudsand they make blues and really
dark colors like that richer.
It actually brings more blueout of the clouds.
So I think, more than anythingit's just a way to make your

(05:26):
photos pop.
Now I've talked to fellowphotographers and they say that
they use it for everything, evenlandscape photos, because it
reduces a little bit theluminance on like green colors
of leaves and trees and biglandscapes like that.
So you know, it's one of thosethings.
I think most pro photographersdo have a polarizing filter in
their bag, whether they use itor not.
It's kind of up to you.

(05:47):
I will caution you.
This is going for all filtersacross the board.
One of the big risks of using afilter is you get this
infringement, this vignetting atthe corners, and you'll notice
this especially with lessexpensive filters.
They are thicker glass andadding anything between your
lens, or I should say yoursensor, and the subject is

(06:10):
adding another layer that needsto be really high quality for
the inherent quality of thephoto to come out.
What I mean by that is you'reslapping a piece of glass
between you and the photo, andso the more glass you add, like
if you stack filters or if youuse inexpensive filters that are
very thick glass, they docreate this vignetting at the
edges and it's in most cases sodark that it's relatively

(06:32):
unacceptable, like you literallyhave to crop your photo in.
So the takeaway from that is, ifyou are shooting with an ultra
wide angle lens and you needevery little millimeter to get
this big view and you'reshooting with an inexpensive
filter of any kind.
Be very, very cognizant.
Review your photos and look atthe corners, because you're
probably getting some darkvignetting that you're going to

(06:54):
have to crop out after the fact.
If you're shooting ultra wideand you don't need every single
little inch in the frame, maybeit's okay, you can crop and
that'd be just fine.
But this is I've noticed.
The reason I'm talking aboutthis with the polarizing
category here is I've noticed itto be especially prominent with
polarizers, especiallyinexpensive polarizers.
So of all these filters thatI'm talking about, if there's

(07:15):
one that you drop a little bitmore money on like, frankly, a
couple hundred dollars a reallygood polarizing filter is going
to be significantly better foryou and your photography than an
inexpensive polarizing filter.
In fact, my humble advice is,if you're not spending $100 on a
polarizer, you may not want touse it at all.
You may just want to leave itoff your camera, leave it off

(07:36):
your lens and just stick withmanipulating the photo in
Photoshop or Lightroom, likesaturating the blues.
A little known trick is thatone of the effects of polarizers
can be done by simplydecreasing the blue luminance.
So if you're in Lightroom orPhotoshop, you can look for that
luminance tab.
It's usually under, like thecolor mixer, decrease the
luminance of blues, and that'sdoing about the same thing

(07:59):
visually not physically, butvisually.
It's really really similar towhat a polarizing filter would
do for your lens.
So polarizers I do have one, Ido like them.
I'm headed to Greenland soonand I will absolutely be having
my polarizer on by default, so Ithink it's going to really
really pop the blues out of theicebergs and out of like skies

(08:20):
and clouds, just make more of adynamic landscape.
But again, it's not one ofthose things that I think is
really critical, like a UVfilter might be.
There is one other category offilter that I'm going to tell
you about that is prettycritical for certain kinds of
shots.
A polarizer is not one of those.
It's just kind of like a reallynice to have.
If you have spent the money andyou've gotten all the other

(08:40):
gear you wanted, you're like Ihave a little bit of cash left,
or I just made the next thingneutral density filters.
This is what I was talkingabout where you physically
cannot get the shot if you don'thave a neutral density filter.
The shots that I'm talkingabout they're very, very
specific.

(09:00):
There is kind of one purpose fora neutral density filter and it
is to take long exposurephotography in bright conditions
.
The idea is that if you'reshooting at night and you're
doing long exposure photographyone second, two, second, four,
second, 20 seconds there's solittle light in the atmosphere,
there's so little light reachingyour sensor that you can do
that and be at F4, f5, 6, heck,f16, your aperture can balance

(09:26):
out that really long shutterspeed.
Now the problem is is if you'rein front of a waterfall or
moving river these are kind ofthe main applications here.
If you're in front of awaterfall or moving river, these
are kind of the mainapplications here.
If you're in front of thosethings, but you're in daylight
conditions, even if you're underthe canopy of a forest in Costa
Rica or you're on the shadowyside of a mountain in Colorado
or Wyoming, you still are goingto need some way to physically
darken the amount of lightcoming into your sensor.

(09:49):
It's kind of an abstractthought.
We don't think usually of havingtoo much light in photography
Nine times out of 10, it's theopposite.
We're trying to increase theamount of light reaching our
sensor.
But when you want to do a onesecond, two, second, three,
second shot of moving water,specifically the silky water
effect in bright daylightconditions.
You got to slap a neutraldensity filter on your lens to

(10:11):
limit the amount of light.
Otherwise aperture just cannotcompensate for that flow of
light.
You can't stop down youraperture to a small enough
pinhole to compensate for theamount of light flowing through
in one to four seconds Now.
So neutral density filters.
They usually come in variouscategories or degrees and they
are usually categorized by stops, the amount of stops that this

(10:35):
dark tinted lens gives to yourcamera.
I don't really really recommendgetting too scientific in this
and reading too far into it.
I think a good six stop neutraldensity filter is about ideal.
A one stop just means you'rehaving the amount of light by
50%.
That really doesn't do a wholelot.
You kind of want to make a big,significant push because if

(10:56):
you're in big daylightconditions you want to be able
to slash that lightsignificantly.
And the reality is every timeyou go up a stop in aperture
you're having that amount oflight.
So to add just one more halfbeyond F22 or what have you is
not going to do a whole lot.
So six stops to me is thatsweet spot.

(11:16):
But I want to tell you about acool thing that's really come
about and very, very popular inrecent years is called a
variable neutral density filter.
If you turn out to be a neutraldensity nut and you're
photographing waterfalls andmoving rivers and cascades all
day long on all of your photoexpeditions, you might want to
consider a variable neutraldensity filter.
It's a really interestingconcept.

(11:38):
For most of them, from what Iunderstand, they are essentially
two polarizing filters.
Remember, polarizing filtersare kind of like Venetian blinds
, where they only let light inthrough one plane.
But if you stack two polarizingfilters on top of one another,
as you rotate, all of a suddenit gets much, much brighter and
much, much darker.
So you actually have completecontrol over how much light is

(11:59):
let through this filter, givingyou super, super precise control
over how many stops of lightare allowed in to get basically
the perfect shutter speed andthe perfect aperture for your
lighting conditions.
So I may have gotten down avery, very techie rabbit hole
here.
I want to come back to thesurface and basically encourage
you to think about a neutraldensity filter.

(12:20):
This is one of those filters inmy mind you don't need to spend
a lot of money on.
Yes, variable neutral densityfilters are expensive just
because of the tech involvedwith polarizing filters and
stacking them and making surethey're calibrated.
But if you want to just get arun of the mill, six stop
neutral density filter, you canprobably go for one of the
cheaper brands or at leastcheaper versions, because,

(12:42):
honestly, you're probably goingto use them on a typical photo
trip once or twice out of 2000,3000, 4000 photos.
So to make sure you get theutmost quality by dropping a
couple hundred dollars more, Idon't personally think it's
worth it.
So, in other words, neutraldensity filter a really cool
thing to have in your kit forphotographing waterfalls or

(13:03):
moving water, to get that silkyeffect in daylight conditions.
But don't break the bank to getthem, okay.
So there's a version of neutraldensity filters I think is quite
interesting.
I'm going to be upfront.
This one's kind of going theway of the dodo.
Photoshop and Lightroom havereally figured out a way to do
this quite well, and it's calledthe graduated neutral density
filter.
So what graduated basicallymeans is that there is a

(13:25):
gradient between the dark tintof that neutral density and
completely clear, and so whatthis allows you to do, the most
common application.
I have one, I've used one.
I like them.
I don't use them much anymore,but basically what it allows you
to do is imagine yourself in asunset scene where you want to
get great foreground lightmeaning the stuff in front of

(13:46):
the sunset and also get really,really great color and texture
on the sunset itself.
So a photo a few years back thatcomes to mind is photographing
in Bryce Canyon National Park ofa glorious sunset.
Now it's hard to have your cakeand eat it too with sunset
photography, because if you wantto get a great shot to
illuminate the foreground inthis case Bryce Canyon these

(14:07):
beautiful hoodoos with the pinksand yellows and reds and
oranges, they're really, reallygreat.
But if you want to get thatproperly exposed while also
exposing the pretty brightsunset, you're going to either
have good exposure on theforeground and a blown out,
overly bright sunset, or youneed to darken your shot and get
a really evenly exposed sunsetat the expense of a shadowy,

(14:30):
dark, hard to see, obscuredforeground.
The answer well, a physical wayto do it is to screw on or clip
on a graduated neutral densityfilter such that it manually
darkens that sunset so you canexpose for the foreground but
then it manually darkens thatsunset.
It's an interesting hack.
It's not something that youmight think of if you're newer

(14:50):
to photography, but by literallysplitting your frame in half or
in thirds and darkening thatsunset it gives you, it allows
you to have your cake and eat ittoo.
Now, since I'm on this topic, Iwill mention that to get a
really good graduated neutraldensity filter, the best way to
do it is to get one of thesethat are actually like
rectangular filters, such thatthey clamp on to the tip of your

(15:13):
lens and you can slide it upand down.
So, as you can imagine, ifyou're in front of let's go back
to this Bryce Canyon sunsetthing if you're in front of that
, do you really want to put thehorizon smack dab in the middle?
Because that's what mostcircular neutral density or
circular graduated neutraldensity filters are is.
They are gradient, such thattransition zone is in the middle

(15:35):
.
But, as we all know, you kindof want to make your scene a
little more compelling.
You want to add someinteresting composition, like
the rule of thirds, and so tohave it smacked out in the
middle actually goes againstthose rules, so it's kind of
weird.
The affordable, consumer-based,practical ones are these split
in the middle.
But to get them really good youwant to buy.

(15:55):
I think they're called likeKoken filters or Lee filters I
honestly don't remember but theyare a little bit more money, in
fact oftentimes a lot moremoney, a bit more work, because
it's a screw on a clamp and thenyou have to clamp this glass
and what if the clamp loosensand the glass slips through?
It's kind of a headache.
So what I do nowadays is Idon't use any of the graduated

(16:15):
neutral density filters and Iinstead rely on the graduated
neutral density tool inPhotoshop.
It works surprisingly well.
Now, if you have the most variedlight and dark conditions on
the planet, it might not workwell enough, but honestly, for
most things we're talking abouta stop or two of light and
Photoshop actually works reallyquite, quite well.

(16:37):
Pro tip on that if you plan onusing the graduated neutral
density filter feature ofPhotoshop to take the best shot
to allow that feature to workwell, it is always better to
lighten something that is toodark than to darken something
that is too light.
Let me say that again it isbetter to shoot a little bit
darker so that you can lightenit in Photoshop than to shoot

(17:00):
overly bright in camera and thenuse Photoshop to darken it.
That's just the way theprocessing works, the way the
data works in terms of the darksand the lights.
You have more data in theshadows than you do in the blown
out highlights.
So shoot a little bit darker.
Leave the graduated neutraldensity at home, or don't buy
one and start to practice onPhotoshop, because it's a pretty

(17:20):
inexpensive, really precise,game changing way to do it.
I absolutely love it.
Okay, so now we're going to moveon to a couple of filters that
are kind of newer in the worldand I'm exploring them myself
and the first one is going to beyour black mist filters.
And for whatever reason, I'mgetting advertised these things
left and right on Instagram andon websites, probably because
I'm looking at companies thatalso make those and they're

(17:43):
their newest, hottest product.
But basically, a black mistfilter is truly kind of creating
a more ethereal, darker,mysterious scene.
It darkens your photo, it makeshighlights a little bit blurry,
kind of like a foggy evening inLondon kind of look, that's the
best way I can describe it.

(18:03):
It's quite interesting thatthey have caught on with such
popularity, because I thinkthese are things that you can be
doing in Photoshop.
But if you love that look withyour mysterious kind of dark
tone travel photography.
There are a few companies thatare making black mist filters
and they look pretty cool.
It's not really my style so Idon't think I'm going to pick

(18:23):
one up necessarily.
But in the full spirit oftalking about all filters past,
present and future, I thinkblack mist filter is something
that we're going to see more ofin the future and it tends to be
a little bit more forcinematography than for
photography.
But nevertheless, you know thecamera, you have probably does
both, so it might be somethingthat would be fun to experiment

(18:44):
with if you're looking atgetting a filter kit Along those
lines.
There's also what's called goldmist, and you know.
Much like the black mist, thatkind of darkens and makes
highlights a little bit morebursty and more cloudy and foggy
.
The gold mist does that cloudyeffect but injects a warmth,
this kind of like warming goldenglow.
Again, I don't think thesethings are necessarily game

(19:06):
changers.
If you like that look, you canprobably replicate it in
Photoshop with a few clicks of abutton, but nevertheless I want
to tell you about them.
Gold mist it in Photoshop witha few clicks of a button, but
nevertheless I want to tell youabout them.
Gold mist, black mist filtersare two that I see are kind of
the hip filters these days,especially for video on your
DSLR or your mirrorless camera.
Okay, so the last one I'd beremiss if I didn't talk about.
They're known as starburstfilters.

(19:27):
I am guilty.
I picked up one several yearsago.
I wanted to get starburstphotos, meaning like I'm saying
starburst, but it's really astarburst of the sun, meaning
when you take a photo of the sunit has those beautiful rays
coming out of it and this filteractually amplifies that.
And I'll tell you how it doesit.
I actually didn't know themechanics until I bought it, but

(19:48):
in the filter itself there arejust minute etched lines going
across, almost like a crisscrosstic-tac-toe pattern that the
light gets into and kind ofbounces around lightly and
creates these lines of light tomake it kind of look like any
light source is shining, withbig sunburst starburst effect.

(20:08):
I got to say I think I've sincegotten rid of that filter.
I may have thrown it awaybecause it was like $7 or
something.
I did not spend a lot of moneybecause I just wanted to
experiment, but I really wantedthat sunburst effect, especially
as the sun was coming up.
We're going to go back to BryceCanyon I don't know.
This is on my mind.
As the sun's coming up over theAquarius Plateau, it makes just
this really really beautiful,soft, almost pink golden light

(20:34):
across the entire hoodoo range,this Bryce Canyon Amphitheater,
and I wanted to get the sky tobe shining with a shimmery
golden light in the array ofstarbursts.
Well, again, this filter overdidit.
It was too much starburst, itlooked too fake.
So I'm going to tell you rightnow, as a bonus tip for this
episode, of how to get thestarburst effect without a
filter, and it's pretty simple.
So this is my way.

(21:00):
There are other ways to do it,but the quick and dirty way is
to set your camera on aperturepriority mode or some mode so
you can directly controlaperture and ramp that aperture
all the way up to F 16 or,ideally, f 22.
Get that sun where it's abouthalf visible and half hidden.
That's why a sunrise is sogreat is because as it's rising,
it's automatically half visible, half hidden.
But if you are not in front ofa sunrise, let's say you're in

(21:21):
front of a rock formation andit's midday, just move your body
.
So about half of that sun isexposed.
With that F22, that very, verynarrow aperture, it's going to
give you that sunburst effectand you can exaggerate the rays,
the prominence of the rays, asyou expose more and more of the
sun.
So, as it's more hidden, verysmall, subdued little rays as

(21:45):
the sun peeks out from aroundthe corner, as you move yourself
to expose yourself to more ofthe sun, the rays just get
bigger and bigger and biggeruntil it's all clouded out and
there's a point of no return.
So yeah, bonus tip, a way to doit.
I think it's still the tried andtrue way, regardless of what
filter technology is out there.
I think it's a really, reallyfun thing to do and you don't
need a filter for it.
So leave that one at home.
Don't bother buying it in thefirst place.

(22:05):
Okay, well, folks, that is it.
So a little recap.
We talked about the history offilters in a lot of this warming
and cooling effect.
We're seeing a little bit of aresurgence of that with the
black mist and the gold filters,but a lot of it is taken care
of with Photoshop, with whitebalance settings today.
So the need for filters is very, very minimal.
You do not need to carry aseparate backpack of 12, 20

(22:26):
filters.
Like photographers in the oldendays but there's still maybe a
few you consider Primarily UVfilters for every lens you have.
Highly recommend it.
Protect your lens, protect yourinvestment, be a little more
conscientious of cleaning yourlens so you don't worry about
scratching it.
But then you also havepolarizing filters, which I
think is a really important oneto at least consider.

(22:47):
I have been hot and cold formany years on polarizers, but
it's one that I think a lot ofpro photographers consider.
And then we talked aboutneutral density and graduated
neutral density.
You cannot take silky photos ofwaterfalls and moving water and
daylight conditions without aneutral density filter.
So I highly recommend you lookinto one of those, especially if
you're going on a trip orphotographing somewhere where

(23:07):
moving water is likely to be athing mountains, think of
streams, creeks, et cetera, etcetera.
And honestly, it's kind of justfun to practice in your
backyard.
If you have a river nearby or aCreek or a stream or anything
like that, you can create somebeautiful works of art with that
silky water effect.
And then graduated neutraldensity.
I like Photoshop.
I think it does a better job,so I no longer carry one with me

(23:29):
.
So, folks, there you have it.
Wild photographer episode onfilters.
Are they even practical anymore?
So, folks, thanks so much forlistening today.
As you can tell, this is reallya passion project of mine.
I've been photographing aroundthe world for over 20 years now
and this is my way of givingback a little bit, delivering
tips, tricks and techniques,giving the tools to take better
and better wildlife, nature,landscape and travel photography

(23:52):
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Again, the best way you cansupport the podcast is leave a
review, leave a star rating upto a five-star review, and you
know.
Thank you so much for joiningtoday and I look forward to
seeing you next time.
Thanks, bye, thank you.
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