July 19, 2024 • 49 mins
Ask Nigel Rawlins a question or send feedback, click the link to text me.
Episode Summary:
In this episode, Dr. Holly Whelan shares her fascinating journey from academia to the corporate world and eventually to entrepreneurship. She discusses her transition from working in the laboratory to managing global brands at Unilever and how her passion for behaviour change and health led her to co-found Habit Partners® and Younger Lives.
Holly emphasises the importance of sustainable habits, starting a business, and maintaining physical and mental well-being.
She also touches on her collaboration with major organizations like Movember and Weight Watchers and offers practical advice for older professionals looking to stay healthy and engaged in their work.
Key Topics Discussed:
- Holly’s academic background in Biology and Neuroscience
- Transition from academia to Unilever and managing global brands
- Founding Habit Partners® and Younger Lives
- Importance of sustainable habits for well-being and longevity
- Challenges and rewards of entrepreneurship
- Addressing physical and mental health for aging professionals
- Collaborations with organizations like Movember and Weight Watchers
Resources Mentioned:
- Books: Atomic Habits by James Clear
- People: Dr. Mark Cobain, Seth Godin, Joan (Train With Joan)
- Concepts: Life Age Test, Heart Age, Diabetes Age, behaviour change, habit stacking, behavioural activation
Connect with the Holly:
- Website: Younger Lives Group
- LinkedIn: Holly Whelan, PhD
- Programs:
- Life Age Test
- Heart Age
- Diabetes Age
Exclusive Free Offer:
Life Age
The Life Age test takes about 5 minutes and is anonymous. It’s based on leading-edge research and provides a scientifically validated quick snapshot of how your daily habits affect you—and what you can do to feel your best and ‘years younger’ for
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nigel Rawlins (00:00):
Ever wondered how, small daily habits can
transform your life.
I'm speaking with Dr.
Holly Whelan, an expert inbehavioral change and the
co-founder of Habit Partners andYounger Lives.
In this episode, Dr.
Whelan shares her insights onsustainable health habits, her
journey from academia toentrepreneurship and the
importance of understanding yourhealth markers.
(00:23):
Her unique blend of scientificknowledge and practical advice
is perfect for the independentprofessional seeking to enhance
their wellbeing.
Join me for actionable tips toboost your health and longevity.
Welcome, Holly, to theWisepreneurs podcast.
Could you tell us somethingabout yourself and where you're
from?
Holly Whelan (00:42):
Yeah, of course.
Hi.
My name is Dr.
Holly Whelan and I'm the founderof Habit Partners, which is part
of the Younger Lives Group.
And I'm an expert in behaviorchange and habits that keep you
at your best throughout life.
Nigel Rawlins (00:55):
So tell me, how did you get into this habit
stuff?
What was the journey there?
Holly Whelan (00:59):
it's very interesting because I started
off as a scientist.
So I did a biology degree andthen I did a neuroscience PhD.
And after about three years ofdoing that I realized that I
didn't want a lab based researchcareer.
And I changed directioncompletely and joined a huge
multinational company ininternational marketing.
(01:20):
The company was called Unilever.
So I spent 20 years plus workingat Unilever on consumer brands
and the corporate brand and alsocorporate social responsibility.
And it's there when I started torealize, when I was working on
marketing, that I wanted to mashup my neuroscience background
with my marketing expertise andbehavior change, so how can
(01:41):
actually you get people tochange their behavior.
I didn't want to just do it tosell products.
I wanted to actually dosomething to improve people's
health.
And so that's how I ended up, asmy career went on in Unilever, I
went from just normal householdbrands to health brands, and
then I ended up working on newbusiness models using behavior
(02:02):
change to improve health.
So that's how I got into it.
And then finally, set up my ownbusiness 10 years ago, where I
do a mixture of consulting todifferent charities and
organizations to help themcreate campaigns and programs to
improve health through habitchange.
And also we run some of our ownprograms as well.
Nigel Rawlins (02:21):
In the corporate environment doing marketing, did
you have to learn marketing asyou went along or did you do
some courses in that?
Holly Whelan (02:27):
There's actually a really funny story about this
because, as I said, when I wasdoing my PhD, I thought I really
don't want to be staying inacademia, it's fine.
So I finished the PhD, but whileI was finishing off, I went for
some interviews and we havesomething called the Milk Round
In England where I live.
And what happens is the bigcompanies come to the
(02:48):
universities to interview.
So I got an interview with manydifferent companies, but,
Unilever, I remember the firstround interview and they
interviewed me and they said, atthe end, that was a great
interview, Holly, but I'm goingto invite you to the second
round, but when you come, canyou just make sure you know what
marketing is?
At that point, I did someresearch and so I could talk
(03:09):
about marketing, but then thereason I joined Unilever versus
many other companies was thatthey ran what was known as the
Management Trainee Scheme andwhat they did is they really
trained you up in marketing andthey were one of the gold
standards in marketing at thetime.
FMCG marketing was where it wasat back in the sort of, 90s when
(03:30):
I joined.
Now it's digital and socialmarketing, but at the time, FMCG
marketing was the gold standard.
Nigel Rawlins (03:37):
So FMCG marketing, fast moving consumer
Holly Whelan (03:41):
goods, exactly.
Nigel Rawlins (03:43):
There's all sorts of distinctions there, isn't it?
Now it's interesting you said,about behavior change, cause
when Seth Godin talks aboutmarketing he talks about what
change do you want to make,which is what you're offering.
So you've got a PhD inneuroscience.
So how did you keep that alive?
For 20 years whilst you'reworking, in marketing.
Holly Whelan (04:02):
It's quite interesting, isn't it?
Because as you say, what Sethsays about what, what change do
you want to see or make?
I think with marketing it is anelement of behavior change
because what you're trying to dowith marketing is you are
raising awareness and you'recreating engagement.
And those two things are verymuch part of behavior change.
You have to raise awareness.
You have to create engagement.
(04:24):
Do I want this brand?
Am I going to buy it?
But after that, so marketingstops.
But actually real behaviorchange goes on.
If you're really doing behaviorchange, you create awareness,
you create engagement, but thenyou have an action, you make
sure that you stimulate theaction and you stimulate
repeated acts of action.
So you keep that going and thenyou look at the impact of that.
(04:45):
That's behavior change.
And so I think as I was doingmarketing, I loved my career in
Unilever.
It was really great.
I did some amazing things.
But as time went on, I startedto get frustrated because you
only go so far.
So I was working on a brandcalled Flora.
I think that's across the world,either known as Flora or Bessel,
(05:05):
which is a margarine brand.
And it's healthier than butter.
And there was lots of healthclaims that we were making.
And we really took it seriously.
But the issue is that it's quitegood for your heart because it
reduces cholesterol.
And we had the proactive brand,but it's not the only solution
to heart health.
So it's one tiny subset ofhealthy eating, the behavior
(05:28):
change, which has to happen, notonly for that, I'm going to use
margarine and replace butter.
That's one behavioral strategy,but there's many other
behavioral strategies that youcan do.
So what are you going to eat inyour entire diet?
Are you going to exercisebetter?
So I started to get frustrated.
I wanted to do not just a tinysubset and sell this one brand,
but actually look at the entireperson, the entire behaviour
(05:51):
change and really take itthrough.
Are they actually making thesechanges?
How can we make that happen?
So the marketing was absolutelybrilliant training in some ways.
One thing I would say is, havingthat FMCG marketing background
means that I'm not purelyacademic in the way that I come
(06:11):
at my behavior change.
So there's a lot of behaviorchange academics out there,
brilliant people.
But they have a very academicsort of almost dry approach and
there's a lot of advertisingagencies or marketers who say
they do behaviour change, butthey don't really, they do
awareness and engagement.
And so I suppose I'd say myniche is I like to mash up the
(06:32):
both and actually make sure thatyou have real behaviour change,
science and campaigns, but donein a really engaging way.
And if you get that working,then you can really shift the
dial, which is exciting.
Nigel Rawlins (06:44):
Yeah.
So the interesting thing abouthaving a marketing background is
you're actually in a betterposition to sell your services
and sell your consultancy.
So let's have a little talkabout that.
At some point I think you met upwith Dr.
Mark Cobain and you co founded,was it Habit Partners?
(07:04):
So can you tell us what happenedthere?
Holly Whelan (07:07):
Yeah that's an interesting story.
Mark and I met in somethingwhich was called the new
business unit of Unilever.
And this was actually my lastrole within Unilever.
And what it was I, as I said, Iwas starting to, after a while,
starting to feel a bit, itchy.
So I was working in bigcorporate, not big global
consumer brands, across theworld and all sorts of areas,
(07:30):
and then I started, I wanted tochange.
So I worked on the brand andthen I wanted to change again.
And they said, we're starting upa new business unit.
It was a time when a new CEO hadcome in and he wanted to look at
parallel markets to whatUnilever was already working in.
Set up a new business unit.
It was an intrapreneur sort ofsetup, so it was trying to get
(07:52):
people within the organizationto set up new businesses, do
things which is going to beparallel and grow in different
ways.
And so I had come from marketinginto that and Mark was actually
R& D, Unilever.
So he is more of an R& D man.
So he has a PhD in psychologyand neuroscience.
(08:14):
So that was immediate, oh, wow,we agree on this.
He was also obsessed abouthealth and wellness business
models.
So he'd done a lot of work in R&D looking at things like taste
preferences, how can we get kidsto eat vegetables?
Really looking at the mechanismsfor behavior change.
He'd also done a lot of work inhealthy aging, and, behavior
(08:35):
change, which needs to be doneto get people staying at their
best as they get older, stayingbiologically younger, and so
when we met in that unit, welike, wow, you get it.
And it was, we always say it'slike a very nice sort of
marriage because you've got theR& D, and you've got the
marketing, but we bothunderstand each other as well,
(08:57):
because I have an R& Dbackground.
And interestingly, he's a bit ofa polymath.
He's studied a lot of Englishand history and he's not just a
pure scientist.
So that's how we met.
And in that unit, we startedworking on a really brilliant
project where we were, trying tolook at heart health and set up
a new business with the largestheart health charity in the
(09:18):
world.
I don't think I can say whobecause it didn't happen in the
end, but, it was extremelyexciting project.
We were, working how to create areally unique private sector,
charity sector concept and itwas very exciting.
In the end it didn't happen,some rather annoying IP and
business negotiations whichdidn't work out, so the
(09:41):
organizations couldn't work thatout, but at that time, that's
when Mark and I went, wow, wegot to do this.
And so after that, we left theorganization set up on our own.
So it was, what could we do?
Nigel Rawlins (09:53):
So tell us how that started because you're
leaving a corporate job whereyou're getting a nice salary and
it would have been pretty goodby then to go out and take the
risk and then try and find someclients, which every business
has got to have.
So how were those first days?
How did that start out?
Holly Whelan (10:10):
Yeah.
A lot of people said, Oh my God,are you mad?
Or you're very brave.
I think they were the two thingsthat people said, but I think
that I've always been a veryvalues driven person.
So I remember one boss saying tome years ago, Oh, the problem
with you, Holly, is you alwayswant to do the right thing.
And I remember thinking that Idon't know if that's the
problem, but anyway, It got tothe point where I really needed
(10:34):
to leave from a personal pointof view.
And so did Mark, we needed to dosomething differently.
We felt we needed to get moreinto really changing behavior
for health.
So I think that we knew weneeded to do that.
I think the other thing whichhelped, if I'm honest, is that
at the, in the last year of myyears at Unilever, I had set up
(10:55):
I was A CEO of Behavior SmartServices, which was a hundred
percent Unilever owned business.
Which was selling behaviorchange and specifically
something called the Heart AgeTool, which mark owns the patent
on which was about how toexplain your risk of heart
disease in a really nice way.
(11:16):
So it says, your heart is olderthan it is.
And it was based on, thebiological markers.
And so I'd, already set that up.
I was the CEO, he was the CSO,so Chief Science Officer.
And we'd started to get clients.
And at that point the newbusiness unit was actually being
shut down.
As things happen, corporatecycles happen, suddenly that
(11:38):
wasn't something they wanted todo anymore.
So they said, would you like tocome back and work in Unilever
proper?
And I said, no, I'd rather goand we'd like to take the assets
with us.
And luckily we managed tonegotiate that.
So we took HeartAge with us,
Nigel Rawlins (11:54):
That was lucky.
Holly Whelan (11:55):
It was brilliant.
And it was a really, it wasslightly scary that, that
negotiation process wasn'talways smooth, but in the end, I
think it was worth it.
We stuck in there.
We took the assets with us.
And so that helped us get ourfirst clients because we had
something which works wasproven.
So our first client was theSingapore Heart Federation and
(12:19):
University and also Bupa.
So we were actually working withthose two using HeartAge, to
actually improve, explain riskand workplace and actually
population health.
So that was really interestingand it was an easy segue out.
Nigel Rawlins (12:33):
And I think I'm beginning to realise this now
when I talk on the Wisepreneurspodcast, because we're talking
to people who might be shiftingto self employment, or who
already are.
And if you are making thatshift, it is really handy to
have some clients, that you canstart with so that you can at
least survive.
Not like how I jumped out ofteaching and had nothing for
(12:54):
about a year, which is justcrazy.
I do not recommend that toanyone.
But it's very obvious, there's apattern that when you do make
that shift and when you'reobviously a bit older, that you
do have some clients to get yougoing.
That was a really smart moveactually.
Holly Whelan (13:09):
100%.
I agree with you that if youhave something that you have and
that you can sell, it's mucheasier and it's still always
tougher than you think it'sgoing to be.
And one thing I'd say is whenyou're in a big corporate and
you're the big I am and everyonewants to talk to you because
you're part of a big corporatewhich has lots of money, you can
feel very, I think, what's theword maybe, too confident or,
(13:33):
maybe falsely confident.
And then when you're out on yourown and it really is just you
that's can be quite sobering.
And I think it makes you abetter person because you're
less arrogant because actuallyreally have to be good at what
you do.
But it's yeah, I it wasn't plainsailing.
Not like I had those two clientsand then it just took off, it's
(13:53):
a struggle, you have to keepgoing and you have all of those
things if you're anentrepreneur.
You have your good years and youhave your bad years.
Been going now 10 years and I'mstill not used to the ups and
downs.
I don't know if I'm ever goingto get used to it.
It is quite stressful and youjust have to keep believing in
yourself.
Nigel Rawlins (14:11):
Doesn't it feel better that you don't have to
get up and go to a job?
Holly Whelan (14:14):
Oh my God, yeah, also absolutely a hundred
percent.
I really don't want to go backinto the corporate world.
I work a lot with massivecorporates, being my own boss
and being able to choose what Iwork on and really feel that I'm
making the impact that I wantto.
So that's fantastic.
Nigel Rawlins (14:31):
So you've got habit partners and Younger
Lives.
So where does the healthy heartsfit in there?
Holly Whelan (14:36):
The reason we called it YoungerLives is
because we wanted to talk aboutthe habits which can keep you
biologically young.
So it's actually, these are thethings that if you are to do,
then it will keep you younger,you're more likely to have a
better quality of life and livelonger.
So effectively, you're younger.
And the heart health tool that Iwas talking to you about is
(14:58):
called Heart Age.
And so what it does is you putin your blood pressure, your
cholesterol numbers and yourage, it will calculate.
So is your heart older oryounger than you based on your
biological factors?
And, so as I said, Mark was theoriginal inventor.
He had actually worked in theFramingham Risk Study, which is
(15:18):
a huge heart health study inNorth America.
And he'd worked there and comeup with the heart concept.
He'd come back into Unilever andwe used heart in association
with Flora and tens of millionsof people had used it.
So we knew it was a verypowerful thing.
Then we obviously set up YoungerLives and used it with other
(15:40):
clients in many organizations.
And actually now the NHS, so theNational Health Service in the
UK uses heart age as part oftheir health check.
Cause it's a very easy way toexplain risk.
So that's how the name YoungerLives came out.
And since then, we've actuallycreated other tools that we
have.
Diabetes Age, so that actuallyhelps, people understand their
(16:02):
risk and how diabetes is agingthem.
And we also have Life Age, whichis actually, you don't need to
know any of your clinicalnumbers.
It's just looking at your dailyhabits and how that's affecting
you.
Is it keeping you younger orolder?
And in fact, I'll be offeringthat to your listeners and for
free so they can try that.
So that's, that was YoungerLives.
(16:22):
And Habit Partners so HabitPartners is a brand name, see,
my marketing background's stillthere.
But it's actually the name forour consulting arm.
When we work with organizationswho want consultancy on behavior
change and how that can reallydrive their business forward.
We do that under the HabitPartners name.
(16:44):
And that's when we're workingwith them to build their own
campaigns.
We do a lot of work with largeorganizations Movember, AXA,
Royal DSM.
So large organizations wants touse behavior change principles
to drive either their programsor their brands.
Nigel Rawlins (17:00):
Let's go back to the Younger Lives and the
Healthy Heart.
One of the issues that I have isI'm 68 now, and I'm trying to
keep myself as fit and ashealthy as possible.
So I Work with a lot of womenand I'm not too sure if, men's
health is obviously the same aswomen's health.
So the issue for me is if we'regoing to continue working in the
(17:24):
things we love doing when we'reolder, say 60, 70 and 80 years
of age, how do we keep ourcognitive health?
Because we want our brain tokeep working, we need our body
as well.
So what are some of the thingswe can do?
To keep ourselves young.
And I'm assuming diabetesknowledge and heart health is
going to help inform us a littlebit about that.
Holly Whelan (17:46):
I am so passionate about this.
I'm now in my mid fifties and Ireally believe that the body is
amazing.
And so is the mind.
And actually, if you look afterit, it really can stay
absolutely sharp and fantasticinto your 70s, 80s, even 90s
now.
We see this everywhere.
(18:07):
But there's a lot of ageism outthere.
And the problem with ageism isthat, people are discounted.
And the worst part of it is thatpeople self internalize that
ageism.
Nigel Rawlins (18:16):
Yep.
Holly Whelan (18:16):
And they don't feel they can continue to do
things.
And actually, one of the reasonsI wanted to come on this podcast
because I love the idea ofWisepreneurs.
I think it's brilliant.
We have a lot to offer.
But as you say, to have theenergy to, continue to do that,
you need to stay well, fit andhealthy.
And that's not just a physical,fit and healthy, but it's also
(18:38):
an emotional one.
And in the end, unless there canbe some unfortunate genetic
issues or bad luck that, youmight have something, 70 percent
of our health is actually downto our lifestyle and our habits.
And I always loved the phrasethat John Dryden, who was the
(18:59):
first poet laureate of Englandsaid, he said, first you make
your habits and then your habitsmake you.
And I think that is so true andthat was back 300 years ago and
nothing has changed because thehabits that we have day in day
out are the things which willmake you the person that you are
(19:19):
and continue to be.
As you say, you are very fit andhealthy.
You have your walks.
We've talked before, you'reobviously look after your
health.
You have some good routines andit's very important.
So eating well, and making surethat you exercise and I don't
mean crazy exercise.
150 minutes of moderate activitya week isn't very much,
(19:40):
actually, if you break it downevery day.
Don't drink too much, don'tsmoke.
So all the standard things, buthow can you build that into
daily habits that you enjoy.
But not only just the physicalside, we do a lot of work with
actually Toronto GeneralHospital and University, who are
doing a lot of research into thehabits which are which drive
(20:04):
quality of life.
And they are actually the oneswhich are probably the most
important.
So what are the things which aregoing to drive good quality of
life, good, and they load withhealth.
things like, having good socialrelationships, lots of friends,
having a purpose in your life,personally growing all the time.
So continuing to work is a bigpart of that.
(20:26):
Another one is roles andresponsibilities, making sure
you're looking after yourfamily, or maybe community work
or things like that are veryimportant.
And actually probably the mostimportant is valuing yourself,
believing in yourself, lookingafter your health.
So we look at all of those, sowhen we do our Younger Lives
work, we look at all of thosehabits and how those things work
(20:50):
together to keep you at yourbest, biologically younger, good
quality of life.
Of course, as part of that, asyou get older is you do need to
have the habit of keep checkingyour health.
So I think that having a yearlyhealth check, knowing your
numbers, knowing yourcholesterol, knowing your blood
pressure, knowing your bloodsugar levels is really
(21:12):
important.
Because if you can know thoseand catch them, then either,
improve them through lifestyle,but sometimes, taking drugs is
required.
So if you have a geneticpredisposition to having a high
cholesterol, which is nothingyou can do about, it's better to
take a statin every day.
That's a habit as well.
Very little side effects andwill cut your risk of having an
(21:33):
event, a heart attack or strokemassively.
So in the end, it's thesehabits.
Habits of looking afteryourself, habits of, getting
yearly checks, habits of takinga medication if you need, and
that is what will keep you atyour best and really firing on
all cylinders.
Nigel Rawlins (21:52):
And that's just being knowledgeable about
things.
I can tell you now that one ofthe things I've noticed, even
though I get up in the dark andI go walking, and then I do my
strength training, and then Isit down for the rest of the
day, and what I'm noticing, I'mgetting fatter around the
middle.
Now, I generally don't eat anyjunk food or anything like that,
but I don't know if it's an agething, and I don't know if other
(22:13):
people are finding this, is ifyou're a knowledge worker, and
I'm assuming most office workersare going to suffer from this,
you can go to the gym, you cando your exercise in the morning,
and then for the rest of yourday you sit down, then you sit
down on the way home, then yousit down and watch TV, and then
maybe you get up.
You're going to laugh.
My wife gave me some funny looksthe other day.
Because I've got a rising desk,I've got to keep very smart
(22:36):
about how I work because sinceI've been about 23 I've been
into fitness and health and soI've got a desk that can rise.
So I was standing for a whileand then I bought this under
desk treadmill, and that means Ican do couple of 25 minutes slow
walks whilst I'm at the standingdesk and maybe whilst I'm
learning something on a thing.
And it's unusual.
(22:57):
My wife thinks I'm a nut becauseI do this sort of stuff.
But that's what we've got to do,isn't it?
You can't do all your fitnessand health stuff and then sit on
your bum for the rest of theday.
Holly Whelan (23:07):
No, I think what you're saying is so true.
The problem is if you're doing,an office job, you are, you
know, sedentary a lot of thetime.
And, the key is, building anactivity throughout your day.
Exactly as you say.
Half an hour in the gym.
Yes, it's important, don't getme wrong, strength training is
(23:28):
important and I do that too, butactually what's more important
is moving throughout the day andactually half an hour per day is
nowhere near as much as if youwere just walking as your mode
of transport, you're justimmediately getting much more
exercise than if you went to thegym three times a week.
So I think you're right.
Habit change is deeply personal.
(23:50):
And I think that's the thing,the way that I, when I'm talking
to clients is that you need tokeep moving.
And the more activity you canhave, it is just generally the
better, it really is.
So the more you can move thebetter, cause it keeps you
fitter, it keeps youbiologically younger, but the
way you do that is deeplypersonal.
So if what you do is a standingdesk and a treadmill, that
(24:12):
sounds fantastic if you like theidea of it.
And so I have to say that soundsquite fun.
I quite like that, But a lot ofpeople like your wife just goes,
are you completely insane?
So I've got a lot of friends nowwho are totally addicted to open
water swimming and cold waterswimming.
And I have to say that soundslike the worst thing in the
world to me, but they love itand they swear by it and they
(24:35):
will walk to the Lido.
I live next to Europe's biggestLido, which is great.
And they walk there and they getin and they swim in the winter
in four degrees.
And they feel great and thatworks for them.
And they would say, that's theanswer.
I've got other people who likerunning, I'm not a massive
runner.
That works for them.
But what happens is, by your ownway, you find what works for
(24:59):
you.
So for me personally, I don'town a car, I live in London, and
so I don't need a car.
Transport's amazing, I walkeverywhere, and that walking is
how I stay fit and has alwaysbeen my way of getting my
minutes up.
And I also love it for me a bit,it's a way to connect with my
(25:20):
environment.
I can see what's going on.
It makes me happy.
I break my day off and so I geta lunchtime, I'll go for a walk.
It's a way to get out of thehome office as I start getting a
bit mental.
So yeah, it's, everyone hastheir own way, but you're right.
It is, it's how do you stop thesedentary problem.
Because otherwise you are justsitting on your bum all day.
Nigel Rawlins (25:40):
I only noticed it recently, for all the exercise I
was doing, I was putting on thefat.
And the issue, I guess, guessfor everybody who's listening
is, there's a good chance if youare self employed and you are
working at home, you are sittinga lot.
And this is going to affect yourlong term health.
And the thing you said is getyour markers, so you're
(26:02):
understanding, and get somebenchmarking going on.
And so how can they introducethis stuff into their life if
they're not doing it now?
Holly Whelan (26:12):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think the first thing from abehavior change point of view
you have to want to do it.
So I think the first thing is,we can sit here and tell people
that they should, and that'sslightly annoying, isn't it?
You don't want someone to tellyou to do it.
I think the first thing is thatyou have to want to, and there's
lots of reasons how that canhappen.
You might have a wake up call,you might have a health scare,
(26:33):
or you might, be inspired bysomeone.
The life age tests that we haveand, I'm offering for people to
just take is a way to see howyour habits are affecting you.
Are they keeping you younger orolder?
For some people be a nicereassurance they're doing the
right thing, or it might be abit of a wake up call that maybe
they should do more so that canactually stimulate, maybe I
should make some changes, butonce you've made up your mind
(26:55):
that you want to.
I think the answer is to startsmall.
I think people always, Oh, I'mgoing to be fit and I'm going to
run a marathon.
It's just too much, you're justgiving yourself, something to
fail.
And that's not behavior change,that's a wish, right?
I want to run a marathon andactually there's nothing wrong
with that.
If that's your goal, that'sfantastic, but you need to break
(27:15):
it down.
What am I going to do to getthere?
The way I look at it is like,what can you do?
If you want to just startwalking, or going to the gym in
the morning, what could you do?
So firstly, have you got theright walking shoes?
Maybe buying a pair of shoes.
That's sometimes quite a nicetrigger as well.
It's you think about, actually,I've got these shoes, I want to
(27:38):
use them.
So that can work, but only to acertain extent.
The next thing you need to do ishave the right environment.
So say you want to walk beforeyou start work or after you've
just got up, a really good tipis putting your exercise clothes
next to your bed.
And so what you do is you getup, it's there.
There's no barrier.
(27:59):
You stick that on, stick thoseshoes on and you go.
I spoke to one woman a few weeksago and she literally, I've
never heard this before, shesleeps in her exercise gear,
which I thought was a littleextreme, but she does it because
she's wearing it when she getsup and there's no excuse.
And this is something I don'tknow if you've read the book
Atomic Habits by James Clear.
(28:21):
He talks about something calledhabit stacking.
And what's interesting aboutthat is that once you have one
little habit, it could be thatthe keystone habit is just
putting on that exercise gear.
Because once you put thatexercise gear before you know it
you open the door, you're outand you're doing it.
So it's like, what is the habitwhich then stacks from there?
(28:44):
And to use a scientific phrase,it's called behavioral
activation.
Once one thing starts, thenthings start to load from there
because you're doing it youstart to feel good.
Because it's like you're doingthat thing and then if you're
doing more exercise, you tend towant to eat a little bit better.
And then as time goes on, theultimate and the thing that
(29:05):
we're all aiming for is itbecomes part of your identity.
And then once it becomes part ofyour identity, that habit is
impossible to break.
So I, for instance, I, I'm awalker.
it's now part of my identitythat I don't have a car.
And I walk everywhere.
So I don't even think about it.
I don't think about hopping inmy car.
I don't have it because it'sjust, I'm a walker.
(29:27):
And then you start loading onall sorts of things in, in
hindsight, Oh that's good forthe environment.
That's this, that saves memoney, but it's not really
what's happening.
But I think that would be startsmall, habit stack and do things
that you want to don't do thingsthat, because other people tell
you to do it, do it cause youenjoy it and then you're more
likely to keep going.
Nigel Rawlins (29:48):
Oh, definitely.
It's got to be something youlove.
And look, I did a marathon 44years ago.
Holly Whelan (29:55):
Wow.
Nigel Rawlins (29:55):
never wanted to do another one.
I just remember the end of it.
I did a very fast marathonbecause I was very light in
those days.
But, I haven't run for manyyears because I just don't like
bouncing around like thatanymore.
But I was running with some guyswho used to do a marathon every
year.
And they look like really oldmen.
It must have been really wearingthem out.
But yeah we, we know thatrunning is probably good for
(30:19):
you, but the problem when you'reolder is the potential to get
injured.
And if you injure yourself orpull a muscle, that's weeks and
weeks before you recover becausewhen you're older it takes
longer to get better and it canbe costly if you go out and,
have to see a physiotherapistbecause they're not cheap and
and so you ruin it.
So it's better to do somethingnice and gentle and work your
(30:40):
way up.
But the other interesting thingtoo, is if you do look after
your health you can be as fit assomebody who's 20 or 30 years
younger than you.
Holly Whelan (30:51):
I really agree with you, Nigel.
And there is some, I don't knowif you've seen the Instagram
sensation, Joan Train With Joan.
I love this woman.
She is such an example of notsomeone who's always been fit
all her life.
But someone who decided age 73to do something.
(31:14):
So if you check her out herstory is her daughter is a
personal trainer.
However, she was not into it atall.
And age 73, she was seriouslyoverweight.
She's Canadian, I think.
Really overweight, obese and hadtype two diabetes, was in a mess
and, her daughter was reallyupset.
So I'm like, God, you're goingto die.
And she was like, I don't care.
(31:35):
And then I think, I don't know,there was some light bulb
moment.
And she decided to start doingsomething.
I think she's now 77 or 78 andmy God, she is bench pressing
huge amounts and you can see allher muscles.
I'm not suggesting that weshould all be like Joan, but
what I think is amazing aboutthat is that, like you say, you
(31:55):
can still be extremely fit andreally turn things around.
So even if you haven't been ashealthy as you'd like.
It's not too late.
Don't believe that rhetoric.
It's not true.
You can turn it around and getfit.
As I said, the body isincredible and you can not only
lose weight and get more energy,but you can get those serious
(32:17):
issues like blood sugar markersdown.
You can effectively reverse type2 diabetes.
You can get your blood pressureright down.
And those are the things as weget older, they're the markers
that you really do want to keepgood.
I think that those things justnaturally start getting better
when you are looking afteryourself.
Your blood pressure will comedown, your blood sugars will be
(32:40):
managed.
So if you can get to a pointwhere you're just enjoying your
lifestyle and it's doing thatfor you, then you've hit the
jackpot, haven't you?
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (32:49):
And we should just explain that it does take a
little bit of time for all thatto work.
It's not going to happen in thefirst couple of weeks though.
Some of it can improve.
I must admit, I was on bloodpressure medication for about 10
years and then I must have gotto a stage with my weight and my
fitness that I didn't need themanymore.
I haven't had them for years.
Holly Whelan (33:09):
That's fantastic.
Yeah, exactly.
And it's not overnight.
I really agree.
And I think that it's gettingthings in perspective and
enjoying what you're doing foryou anyway, I think.
I think that's the key.
So enjoy the habits that you'redoing, which will also do you
good.
And there is absolutely no shamebeing on medication if you need
it.
(33:29):
Some people need it.
And I'm not one of these peoplesaid, Oh, we must never be on
medication because that's justsimply not true.
It keeps a lot of people alivewho need to be alive and add to
the world.
A lot of the men in my familyall died aged 50, because we had
familial hypercholesterolemia,which is basically genetic high
(33:49):
cholesterol, and if they're noton statins, they'd all be dead.
But now, they're on statins and,they're living till sort of 80,
90 years old, which couldn'thave happened without drugs.
So it is everything.
It's why you should get yournumbers checked as well.
Nigel Rawlins (34:03):
I think men are probably the slowest ones in
doing that.
They tend not to look aftertheir health, their mental
health as well, they don'talways look after until it
collapse and then they'relooking for a quick fix and
there isn't one.
It's, you've got to take yourtime and we may have habits, see
the whole point about, If you'regoing to be a Wisepreneur, you
want to have your mentalcapacity when you're 70 and 80
(34:25):
because if you're reallyinterested in what you're doing,
you really don't want to stop.
It doesn't mean you have to work60 hours a week.
We had on the podcast, HazelEdwards, who's an author.
She's 78 and she's stillworking, but she said she's cut
down her working hours to 35hours a week.
Holly Whelan (34:41):
Love that.
That's fabulous.
Nigel Rawlins (34:43):
that's the thing is, if you are older and you are
an expert in your field, youdon't want to be working every
day.
I do client work.
Still run a marketing servicescompany.
Today I probably spent half anhour sorting out something and
something else, but the rest ofthe day I'm reading, I'm doing
the podcast, I'm looking atarticles I want to write.
I don't want to be doing clientwork all the time.
(35:06):
I get annoyed if I don't get toread and fit my exercise in.
So that's the nature of workingwhen you're older is, plus
you've also probably got familyall my kids, they've all moved
off in different directions.
So I don't often get to seethem.
But other people have probablygot grandchildren and all sorts
of things that demand theirattention, which is really good.
Holly Whelan (35:27):
Just wanted to echo what you've just said about
working as you get older.
If you notice like, a lot of theA list celebrities, that you see
Cher or, I don't know, DollyParton or, you know, all these
people.
And they're really quiteextraordinary.
I mean, okay, they've had a lotof work done, but I'm not
talking about that.
I'm talking about energy and,and they love what they do.
(35:51):
Because it just gives themmeaning.
My dad is, you know, 89 thisyear and he still runs a, a
political blog and he lovesthat.
My mother is, in her late 70s,still teaches drama three days a
week.
And, my mom's actually quiteinteresting.
She's tried to retire twice andcan't do it because she's just
(36:12):
said, what, I need this in mylife.
And why would you mean that tosuddenly, go to nothing to doing
nothing.
So I think it's not, I think,work is really important if you,
if it brings meaning, as I said,the, it brings you back to those
quality of life habits that Iwas talking to you about, the
really important ones.
If it brings you meaning and itkeeps you personally growing,
(36:35):
that keeps you younger, that isabsolutely one of the things
which matter, but also balance.
There's some really interestingthings which are going on now,
we really need to keep olderpeople in the workforce because
as we have an aging population,it's absolutely imperative that
we keep older people in thepopulation because we haven't
got enough people comingthrough.
(36:56):
Firstly, stop the ageism thatpeople aren't recruiting old
people into the workplace, whichis one area, but the other area
is that for people who are inthe workplace, can we give them
more flexible working hours, soactually you can have all the
things that you're discussing.
Unilever, my old employer, isquite interesting.
They created a very interestingproposition where people who had
(37:17):
worked in Unilever could thenleave, but then come back as a
consultant, say two to threedays a week, but still maintain
their pension, which was thoughtwas really excellent.
So they didn't lose theexpertise.
They got two to three days aweek, which is what the people
wanted.
But didn't have to pay fullwhack.
(37:37):
I just thought that was a reallycreative way, that a corporate
was trying to maintainknowledge, but also, keep people
happy.
So I think, yeah, if you canfind the right balance,
everything in your life andwork, has a very important part.
It does keep you young, I think.
Nigel Rawlins (37:54):
I agree.
I think, even part time work,even in a supermarket or
something like that is worthdoing.
But, the thing about knowledgeworkers is that, provided that
they've kept themselves up todate and they've really been
involved in their industry or intheir domain, they're able to
earn reasonably good money forone or two days a week, or even
(38:16):
a month at a time and then amonth off.
There's that flexibility, whichis, I would hate to see,
intelligent people losing theirability to use their knowledge
to help other people.
And I'd never feel anyone who'solder is out of date.
If you saw my technical setupand you saw what I do with AI,
(38:36):
I'd be surprised if there'sanyone, geeks and nerds and
stuff like that are going tooutperform me, and people like
that, but I'd give them a go fortheir money, but I certainly
would like an IT person to comeand sort out all the bits of
wires I've got everywhere.
Holly Whelan (38:51):
I think that's just agism, all the old people
don't understand tech.
That's just simply not true.
Of course you understand thetech, it's your job and it's
your job to know it and youenjoy it.
I think this is where, ageismand prejudice is an issue, I
think.
And then a lot of people even intheir forties, much younger than
me, or, people I know in theirfifties say, Oh I, I'm not very
(39:13):
good with tech, I'm a bit oldfor that.
And they take on that sort ofageist sort of rhetoric,
internalize it and start playingit back.
And it's so annoying becauseIt's simply not true, like you
say.
It's not that difficult to usethis stuff, you just need to
keep up to date, as you say.
Nigel Rawlins (39:30):
Oh I think if, again, if you're a professional
and you're earning consultancyfees and stuff like that, you
can hire the help.
I use lots of technicalspecialists because I run the
marketing services company.
I've got a guy who I'm juststarting to do some work with.
He does automations.
So I want to automate some ofthe processes.
I don't want to have to do themanual anymore because I'm
(39:53):
really bored doing themmanually.
I want to use the brainy stuffto, get the reports, look at the
reports and see what I can dowith them and suggest.
That's using my brain.
But if I had to do the manualwork of because I look after a
number of websites, I do amonthly report.
So I had to look at thestatistics, but I've had to do
it manually, which is reallyannoying.
(40:13):
So now I'm automating.
So, you know, there are somereasonably priced, very smart
people out there who can solveall these problems for you,
whereas you can keep using yourbrain, which is what,
Wisepreneurs is about.
Not trying to do it allyourself.
Holly Whelan (40:30):
Oh God, I love that.
And I think that also, since Iset up my own business, we've
got a very small leans set upbecause, don't want to have, all
the costs of lots of staffbecause, um, especially as we
talked earlier about, the upsand downs of having business,
that can be very stressful.
Very similar to you I have areally trusted group of
affiliates who I know areabsolutely brilliant and can do
(40:53):
the things that I can't, and youjust bring them in and out as
you need.
And it's wonderful because thosepeople want to work that way as
well.
Cause they want the flexibilityto not work in a corporate.
And so once you've got yourlittle gang of people that you
can trust and you can trust withyour life.
It's a wonderful way of working.
And yeah, without all thenightmare of having paid staff
(41:15):
or all of that, that good stuff,which can be very stressful.
And sometimes you don't wantthat as you get older either.
Nigel Rawlins (41:22):
Now I've done that.
I've had an office and hademployees and you just have to
keep them busy.
And then you've got to manageit.
It's much, much niceroutsourcing provided you know
how to do it properly and you'reprepared to pay for it.
So let's come back to some ofthe other things you do, like
you work with Movember.
So tell us something about that.
Holly Whelan (41:41):
Yeah.
Movember is interesting because,I've worked with them since
2017, and, we actually answereda global RFP, a request for a
proposal for behaviour change,and they wanted to get into
behaviour change and they wantedto understand the behaviours
which we should improve men'sHealth.
But it wasn't until, got intoMovember that I realized it was
(42:03):
an Australian organization.
I had no idea.
It is definitely an Australian,organization.
And, it is all over the worldnow.
Mainly the English speakingworld, but not only the English
speaking world.
It's obviously very huge inAustralia, but it's very big in
the UK.
It's in Canada.
It's in, the US and acrossEurope as well now.
(42:24):
That's growing.
Yeah, it's a globalorganization, came out of
Australia, and, answered an RFPin 2017 and they wanted to, set
up a new health promotionagency.
section of the organization,it's a charity.
they wanted help to understandthe behaviors which really drive
men's health.
(42:45):
So we were brought in to look atwhat are the big issues for men?
What are the biggest killers ofmen?
And then what are the behaviorswhich will, mitigate that, make
that less likely to happen.
So we started there and sincethen we've done a huge amount of
work where we now actually helpthem understand, when COVID
happened, for instance, it'slike, this is a pandemic coming,
what should we do?
(43:05):
So we worked with them tounderstand the men which were
most at risk of the COVID.
So we did a big piece of workwhere we identified that teenage
boys were going to be really atrisk because we'd looked at
previous pandemics that impactwould be on mental health.
And then that led to a largepiece of work saying, what are
the behaviors that those teenageboys which are going to be
(43:27):
protective.
And that led to a large campaignworking with YouTube
influencers.
Cause you can't talk directly toa teenage boy, you need to get
someone who they respect to, toencourage certain behaviors.
And then we evaluated that.
It was firstly run just in theUK, showed that it really worked
and showed that we actually didchange behaviour, change
(43:50):
attitudes and behaviours, gotboys to, more likely to have
discussions with their friends.
And then that was then rolledout across the eight countries
in Europe.
So that was really interesting.
So yeah, we do a lot of thattype of work.
We were doing, a reallyinteresting piece of work now on
a EU big project on prostatecancer screening across Europe
(44:11):
and working on that as well.
So I love it.
I really enjoy it.
It's a great organization.
They really trying to championmen's health, trying to do it in
a way which is scientificallyrobust, but also in a fun way.
They've got a really lovely toneof voice.
And, Use a bit of humor to gettheir messages across, which is
also very important for men aswell.
(44:32):
You've got to talk to men in away, which is different to
women, as you said, rightearlier in the podcast men tend
to bury their head in the sand alittle bit more when it comes to
health.
They're less preventative.
Not all men, I shouldn't saythat it's not true, all men.
Some men are really preventativein their health but, a lot of
them will, not do anything untilthey have a wake up call.
(44:53):
So it's you do need to talk tomen in a certain way.
And, unfortunately, thehealthcare system is quite
female in the way that it talks.
It talks about your risk and youlook after yourself and women
tend to respond more to thatthan men.
You have to talk to men usingthe right language, the right
way of taking more control ofyour health, give them more
(45:13):
agency in that, you know.
You are strong if you look afteryourself, so using that type of
language rather than Oh, youmight be at risk, you better
check yourself out.
That's doesn't tend to work sowell for men.
Nigel Rawlins (45:26):
And what about Weight Watchers?
You also work with them, so isthat more female focused?
Holly Whelan (45:31):
It's not just it's not just women, but it is main
mainly women.
That was using the Life AgeTest, so they actually use that
across the UK and US.
And we looked at how couldthinking about your overall
health and your habits andhabits keeping you younger or
older, that is a very importantpart.
Weight management is a huge partof that.
(45:51):
So that was interesting workingwith them.
Weight Watchers are reallyfantastic about habit change,
and they really understand that.
They're a great organization.
It's not just, calorie deficitt.
It really is like theyunderstand habits.
They create brilliant campaignsand programs around that.
And that's why they've been sosuccessful.
Nigel Rawlins (46:10):
Is there something else you would like to
talk about
Holly Whelan (46:13):
Yeah, I think we've talked about it's
personal, which is reallyimportant.
I want to say that habit changeis really personal.
I think we've talked aboutstarting small.
Nigel Rawlins (46:23):
So Holly, how would you like people to connect
with you and find you?
Holly Whelan (46:27):
Oh it'd be lovely to connect with people.
I'm always interested in newconnections.
I think LinkedIn is the bestway.
You can find me on LinkedIn.
It's Holly Wheelan, PhD.
And you'll see yeah, I'm afounder of Habit Partners.
Nigel Rawlins (46:40):
So I'll put all those in the show notes.
And we were also talking aboutthe Life Age, so there's an
offer that you're making.
Holly Whelan (46:46):
Yeah, so I just wanted to offer people the
opportunity to take the Life AgeTest if they wanted to.
The life age test is a evidencebased tool that gives you a
scientifically validatedsnapshot of how your habits,
your daily habits are affectingyou and what you can do to
improve and feel at your best.
If you want to take that I'veset up unique access codes for
(47:08):
the Wisepreneur community andthat's valid until the 4th of
August.
Nigel Rawlins (47:13):
2024.
So if you're listening to it ina year's time, it's gone.
Holly, thank you very much forcoming along and joining me.
Holly Whelan (47:23):
Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Thanks, Nigel.
Ever wondered how, small daily habits can
transform your life.
I'm speaking with Dr.
Holly Whelan, an expert inbehavioral change and the
co-founder of Habit Partners andYounger Lives.
In this episode, Dr.
Whelan shares her insights onsustainable health habits, her
journey from academia toentrepreneurship and the
importance of understanding yourhealth markers.
(00:23):
Her unique blend of scientificknowledge and practical advice
is perfect for the independentprofessional seeking to enhance
their wellbeing.
Join me for actionable tips toboost your health and longevity.
Welcome, Holly, to theWisepreneurs podcast.
Could you tell us somethingabout yourself and where you're
from?
Holly Whelan (00:42):
Yeah, of course.
Hi.
My name is Dr.
Holly Whelan and I'm the founderof Habit Partners, which is part
of the Younger Lives Group.
And I'm an expert in behaviorchange and habits that keep you
at your best throughout life.
Nigel Rawlins (00:55):
So tell me, how did you get into this habit
stuff?
What was the journey there?
Holly Whelan (00:59):
it's very interesting because I started
off as a scientist.
So I did a biology degree andthen I did a neuroscience PhD.
And after about three years ofdoing that I realized that I
didn't want a lab based researchcareer.
And I changed directioncompletely and joined a huge
multinational company ininternational marketing.
(01:20):
The company was called Unilever.
So I spent 20 years plus workingat Unilever on consumer brands
and the corporate brand and alsocorporate social responsibility.
And it's there when I started torealize, when I was working on
marketing, that I wanted to mashup my neuroscience background
with my marketing expertise andbehavior change, so how can
(01:41):
actually you get people tochange their behavior.
I didn't want to just do it tosell products.
I wanted to actually dosomething to improve people's
health.
And so that's how I ended up, asmy career went on in Unilever, I
went from just normal householdbrands to health brands, and
then I ended up working on newbusiness models using behavior
(02:02):
change to improve health.
So that's how I got into it.
And then finally, set up my ownbusiness 10 years ago, where I
do a mixture of consulting todifferent charities and
organizations to help themcreate campaigns and programs to
improve health through habitchange.
And also we run some of our ownprograms as well.
Nigel Rawlins (02:21):
In the corporate environment doing marketing, did
you have to learn marketing asyou went along or did you do
some courses in that?
Holly Whelan (02:27):
There's actually a really funny story about this
because, as I said, when I wasdoing my PhD, I thought I really
don't want to be staying inacademia, it's fine.
So I finished the PhD, but whileI was finishing off, I went for
some interviews and we havesomething called the Milk Round
In England where I live.
And what happens is the bigcompanies come to the
(02:48):
universities to interview.
So I got an interview with manydifferent companies, but,
Unilever, I remember the firstround interview and they
interviewed me and they said, atthe end, that was a great
interview, Holly, but I'm goingto invite you to the second
round, but when you come, canyou just make sure you know what
marketing is?
At that point, I did someresearch and so I could talk
(03:09):
about marketing, but then thereason I joined Unilever versus
many other companies was thatthey ran what was known as the
Management Trainee Scheme andwhat they did is they really
trained you up in marketing andthey were one of the gold
standards in marketing at thetime.
FMCG marketing was where it wasat back in the sort of, 90s when
(03:30):
I joined.
Now it's digital and socialmarketing, but at the time, FMCG
marketing was the gold standard.
Nigel Rawlins (03:37):
So FMCG marketing, fast moving consumer
Holly Whelan (03:41):
goods, exactly.
Nigel Rawlins (03:43):
There's all sorts of distinctions there, isn't it?
Now it's interesting you said,about behavior change, cause
when Seth Godin talks aboutmarketing he talks about what
change do you want to make,which is what you're offering.
So you've got a PhD inneuroscience.
So how did you keep that alive?
For 20 years whilst you'reworking, in marketing.
Holly Whelan (04:02):
It's quite interesting, isn't it?
Because as you say, what Sethsays about what, what change do
you want to see or make?
I think with marketing it is anelement of behavior change
because what you're trying to dowith marketing is you are
raising awareness and you'recreating engagement.
And those two things are verymuch part of behavior change.
You have to raise awareness.
You have to create engagement.
(04:24):
Do I want this brand?
Am I going to buy it?
But after that, so marketingstops.
But actually real behaviorchange goes on.
If you're really doing behaviorchange, you create awareness,
you create engagement, but thenyou have an action, you make
sure that you stimulate theaction and you stimulate
repeated acts of action.
So you keep that going and thenyou look at the impact of that.
(04:45):
That's behavior change.
And so I think as I was doingmarketing, I loved my career in
Unilever.
It was really great.
I did some amazing things.
But as time went on, I startedto get frustrated because you
only go so far.
So I was working on a brandcalled Flora.
I think that's across the world,either known as Flora or Bessel,
(05:05):
which is a margarine brand.
And it's healthier than butter.
And there was lots of healthclaims that we were making.
And we really took it seriously.
But the issue is that it's quitegood for your heart because it
reduces cholesterol.
And we had the proactive brand,but it's not the only solution
to heart health.
So it's one tiny subset ofhealthy eating, the behavior
(05:28):
change, which has to happen, notonly for that, I'm going to use
margarine and replace butter.
That's one behavioral strategy,but there's many other
behavioral strategies that youcan do.
So what are you going to eat inyour entire diet?
Are you going to exercisebetter?
So I started to get frustrated.
I wanted to do not just a tinysubset and sell this one brand,
but actually look at the entireperson, the entire behaviour
(05:51):
change and really take itthrough.
Are they actually making thesechanges?
How can we make that happen?
So the marketing was absolutelybrilliant training in some ways.
One thing I would say is, havingthat FMCG marketing background
means that I'm not purelyacademic in the way that I come
(06:11):
at my behavior change.
So there's a lot of behaviorchange academics out there,
brilliant people.
But they have a very academicsort of almost dry approach and
there's a lot of advertisingagencies or marketers who say
they do behaviour change, butthey don't really, they do
awareness and engagement.
And so I suppose I'd say myniche is I like to mash up the
(06:32):
both and actually make sure thatyou have real behaviour change,
science and campaigns, but donein a really engaging way.
And if you get that working,then you can really shift the
dial, which is exciting.
Nigel Rawlins (06:44):
Yeah.
So the interesting thing abouthaving a marketing background is
you're actually in a betterposition to sell your services
and sell your consultancy.
So let's have a little talkabout that.
At some point I think you met upwith Dr.
Mark Cobain and you co founded,was it Habit Partners?
(07:04):
So can you tell us what happenedthere?
Holly Whelan (07:07):
Yeah that's an interesting story.
Mark and I met in somethingwhich was called the new
business unit of Unilever.
And this was actually my lastrole within Unilever.
And what it was I, as I said, Iwas starting to, after a while,
starting to feel a bit, itchy.
So I was working in bigcorporate, not big global
consumer brands, across theworld and all sorts of areas,
(07:30):
and then I started, I wanted tochange.
So I worked on the brand andthen I wanted to change again.
And they said, we're starting upa new business unit.
It was a time when a new CEO hadcome in and he wanted to look at
parallel markets to whatUnilever was already working in.
Set up a new business unit.
It was an intrapreneur sort ofsetup, so it was trying to get
(07:52):
people within the organizationto set up new businesses, do
things which is going to beparallel and grow in different
ways.
And so I had come from marketinginto that and Mark was actually
R& D, Unilever.
So he is more of an R& D man.
So he has a PhD in psychologyand neuroscience.
(08:14):
So that was immediate, oh, wow,we agree on this.
He was also obsessed abouthealth and wellness business
models.
So he'd done a lot of work in R&D looking at things like taste
preferences, how can we get kidsto eat vegetables?
Really looking at the mechanismsfor behavior change.
He'd also done a lot of work inhealthy aging, and, behavior
(08:35):
change, which needs to be doneto get people staying at their
best as they get older, stayingbiologically younger, and so
when we met in that unit, welike, wow, you get it.
And it was, we always say it'slike a very nice sort of
marriage because you've got theR& D, and you've got the
marketing, but we bothunderstand each other as well,
(08:57):
because I have an R& Dbackground.
And interestingly, he's a bit ofa polymath.
He's studied a lot of Englishand history and he's not just a
pure scientist.
So that's how we met.
And in that unit, we startedworking on a really brilliant
project where we were, trying tolook at heart health and set up
a new business with the largestheart health charity in the
(09:18):
world.
I don't think I can say whobecause it didn't happen in the
end, but, it was extremelyexciting project.
We were, working how to create areally unique private sector,
charity sector concept and itwas very exciting.
In the end it didn't happen,some rather annoying IP and
business negotiations whichdidn't work out, so the
(09:41):
organizations couldn't work thatout, but at that time, that's
when Mark and I went, wow, wegot to do this.
And so after that, we left theorganization set up on our own.
So it was, what could we do?
Nigel Rawlins (09:53):
So tell us how that started because you're
leaving a corporate job whereyou're getting a nice salary and
it would have been pretty goodby then to go out and take the
risk and then try and find someclients, which every business
has got to have.
So how were those first days?
How did that start out?
Holly Whelan (10:10):
Yeah.
A lot of people said, Oh my God,are you mad?
Or you're very brave.
I think they were the two thingsthat people said, but I think
that I've always been a veryvalues driven person.
So I remember one boss saying tome years ago, Oh, the problem
with you, Holly, is you alwayswant to do the right thing.
And I remember thinking that Idon't know if that's the
problem, but anyway, It got tothe point where I really needed
(10:34):
to leave from a personal pointof view.
And so did Mark, we needed to dosomething differently.
We felt we needed to get moreinto really changing behavior
for health.
So I think that we knew weneeded to do that.
I think the other thing whichhelped, if I'm honest, is that
at the, in the last year of myyears at Unilever, I had set up
(10:55):
I was A CEO of Behavior SmartServices, which was a hundred
percent Unilever owned business.
Which was selling behaviorchange and specifically
something called the Heart AgeTool, which mark owns the patent
on which was about how toexplain your risk of heart
disease in a really nice way.
(11:16):
So it says, your heart is olderthan it is.
And it was based on, thebiological markers.
And so I'd, already set that up.
I was the CEO, he was the CSO,so Chief Science Officer.
And we'd started to get clients.
And at that point the newbusiness unit was actually being
shut down.
As things happen, corporatecycles happen, suddenly that
(11:38):
wasn't something they wanted todo anymore.
So they said, would you like tocome back and work in Unilever
proper?
And I said, no, I'd rather goand we'd like to take the assets
with us.
And luckily we managed tonegotiate that.
So we took HeartAge with us,
Nigel Rawlins (11:54):
That was lucky.
Holly Whelan (11:55):
It was brilliant.
And it was a really, it wasslightly scary that, that
negotiation process wasn'talways smooth, but in the end, I
think it was worth it.
We stuck in there.
We took the assets with us.
And so that helped us get ourfirst clients because we had
something which works wasproven.
So our first client was theSingapore Heart Federation and
(12:19):
University and also Bupa.
So we were actually working withthose two using HeartAge, to
actually improve, explain riskand workplace and actually
population health.
So that was really interestingand it was an easy segue out.
Nigel Rawlins (12:33):
And I think I'm beginning to realise this now
when I talk on the Wisepreneurspodcast, because we're talking
to people who might be shiftingto self employment, or who
already are.
And if you are making thatshift, it is really handy to
have some clients, that you canstart with so that you can at
least survive.
Not like how I jumped out ofteaching and had nothing for
(12:54):
about a year, which is justcrazy.
I do not recommend that toanyone.
But it's very obvious, there's apattern that when you do make
that shift and when you'reobviously a bit older, that you
do have some clients to get yougoing.
That was a really smart moveactually.
Holly Whelan (13:09):
100%.
I agree with you that if youhave something that you have and
that you can sell, it's mucheasier and it's still always
tougher than you think it'sgoing to be.
And one thing I'd say is whenyou're in a big corporate and
you're the big I am and everyonewants to talk to you because
you're part of a big corporatewhich has lots of money, you can
feel very, I think, what's theword maybe, too confident or,
(13:33):
maybe falsely confident.
And then when you're out on yourown and it really is just you
that's can be quite sobering.
And I think it makes you abetter person because you're
less arrogant because actuallyreally have to be good at what
you do.
But it's yeah, I it wasn't plainsailing.
Not like I had those two clientsand then it just took off, it's
(13:53):
a struggle, you have to keepgoing and you have all of those
things if you're anentrepreneur.
You have your good years and youhave your bad years.
Been going now 10 years and I'mstill not used to the ups and
downs.
I don't know if I'm ever goingto get used to it.
It is quite stressful and youjust have to keep believing in
yourself.
Nigel Rawlins (14:11):
Doesn't it feel better that you don't have to
get up and go to a job?
Holly Whelan (14:14):
Oh my God, yeah, also absolutely a hundred
percent.
I really don't want to go backinto the corporate world.
I work a lot with massivecorporates, being my own boss
and being able to choose what Iwork on and really feel that I'm
making the impact that I wantto.
So that's fantastic.
Nigel Rawlins (14:31):
So you've got habit partners and Younger
Lives.
So where does the healthy heartsfit in there?
Holly Whelan (14:36):
The reason we called it YoungerLives is
because we wanted to talk aboutthe habits which can keep you
biologically young.
So it's actually, these are thethings that if you are to do,
then it will keep you younger,you're more likely to have a
better quality of life and livelonger.
So effectively, you're younger.
And the heart health tool that Iwas talking to you about is
(14:58):
called Heart Age.
And so what it does is you putin your blood pressure, your
cholesterol numbers and yourage, it will calculate.
So is your heart older oryounger than you based on your
biological factors?
And, so as I said, Mark was theoriginal inventor.
He had actually worked in theFramingham Risk Study, which is
(15:18):
a huge heart health study inNorth America.
And he'd worked there and comeup with the heart concept.
He'd come back into Unilever andwe used heart in association
with Flora and tens of millionsof people had used it.
So we knew it was a verypowerful thing.
Then we obviously set up YoungerLives and used it with other
(15:40):
clients in many organizations.
And actually now the NHS, so theNational Health Service in the
UK uses heart age as part oftheir health check.
Cause it's a very easy way toexplain risk.
So that's how the name YoungerLives came out.
And since then, we've actuallycreated other tools that we
have.
Diabetes Age, so that actuallyhelps, people understand their
(16:02):
risk and how diabetes is agingthem.
And we also have Life Age, whichis actually, you don't need to
know any of your clinicalnumbers.
It's just looking at your dailyhabits and how that's affecting
you.
Is it keeping you younger orolder?
And in fact, I'll be offeringthat to your listeners and for
free so they can try that.
So that's, that was YoungerLives.
(16:22):
And Habit Partners so HabitPartners is a brand name, see,
my marketing background's stillthere.
But it's actually the name forour consulting arm.
When we work with organizationswho want consultancy on behavior
change and how that can reallydrive their business forward.
We do that under the HabitPartners name.
(16:44):
And that's when we're workingwith them to build their own
campaigns.
We do a lot of work with largeorganizations Movember, AXA,
Royal DSM.
So large organizations wants touse behavior change principles
to drive either their programsor their brands.
Nigel Rawlins (17:00):
Let's go back to the Younger Lives and the
Healthy Heart.
One of the issues that I have isI'm 68 now, and I'm trying to
keep myself as fit and ashealthy as possible.
So I Work with a lot of womenand I'm not too sure if, men's
health is obviously the same aswomen's health.
So the issue for me is if we'regoing to continue working in the
(17:24):
things we love doing when we'reolder, say 60, 70 and 80 years
of age, how do we keep ourcognitive health?
Because we want our brain tokeep working, we need our body
as well.
So what are some of the thingswe can do?
To keep ourselves young.
And I'm assuming diabetesknowledge and heart health is
going to help inform us a littlebit about that.
Holly Whelan (17:46):
I am so passionate about this.
I'm now in my mid fifties and Ireally believe that the body is
amazing.
And so is the mind.
And actually, if you look afterit, it really can stay
absolutely sharp and fantasticinto your 70s, 80s, even 90s
now.
We see this everywhere.
(18:07):
But there's a lot of ageism outthere.
And the problem with ageism isthat, people are discounted.
And the worst part of it is thatpeople self internalize that
ageism.
Nigel Rawlins (18:16):
Yep.
Holly Whelan (18:16):
And they don't feel they can continue to do
things.
And actually, one of the reasonsI wanted to come on this podcast
because I love the idea ofWisepreneurs.
I think it's brilliant.
We have a lot to offer.
But as you say, to have theenergy to, continue to do that,
you need to stay well, fit andhealthy.
And that's not just a physical,fit and healthy, but it's also
(18:38):
an emotional one.
And in the end, unless there canbe some unfortunate genetic
issues or bad luck that, youmight have something, 70 percent
of our health is actually downto our lifestyle and our habits.
And I always loved the phrasethat John Dryden, who was the
(18:59):
first poet laureate of Englandsaid, he said, first you make
your habits and then your habitsmake you.
And I think that is so true andthat was back 300 years ago and
nothing has changed because thehabits that we have day in day
out are the things which willmake you the person that you are
(19:19):
and continue to be.
As you say, you are very fit andhealthy.
You have your walks.
We've talked before, you'reobviously look after your
health.
You have some good routines andit's very important.
So eating well, and making surethat you exercise and I don't
mean crazy exercise.
150 minutes of moderate activitya week isn't very much,
(19:40):
actually, if you break it downevery day.
Don't drink too much, don'tsmoke.
So all the standard things, buthow can you build that into
daily habits that you enjoy.
But not only just the physicalside, we do a lot of work with
actually Toronto GeneralHospital and University, who are
doing a lot of research into thehabits which are which drive
(20:04):
quality of life.
And they are actually the oneswhich are probably the most
important.
So what are the things which aregoing to drive good quality of
life, good, and they load withhealth.
things like, having good socialrelationships, lots of friends,
having a purpose in your life,personally growing all the time.
So continuing to work is a bigpart of that.
(20:26):
Another one is roles andresponsibilities, making sure
you're looking after yourfamily, or maybe community work
or things like that are veryimportant.
And actually probably the mostimportant is valuing yourself,
believing in yourself, lookingafter your health.
So we look at all of those, sowhen we do our Younger Lives
work, we look at all of thosehabits and how those things work
(20:50):
together to keep you at yourbest, biologically younger, good
quality of life.
Of course, as part of that, asyou get older is you do need to
have the habit of keep checkingyour health.
So I think that having a yearlyhealth check, knowing your
numbers, knowing yourcholesterol, knowing your blood
pressure, knowing your bloodsugar levels is really
(21:12):
important.
Because if you can know thoseand catch them, then either,
improve them through lifestyle,but sometimes, taking drugs is
required.
So if you have a geneticpredisposition to having a high
cholesterol, which is nothingyou can do about, it's better to
take a statin every day.
That's a habit as well.
Very little side effects andwill cut your risk of having an
(21:33):
event, a heart attack or strokemassively.
So in the end, it's thesehabits.
Habits of looking afteryourself, habits of, getting
yearly checks, habits of takinga medication if you need, and
that is what will keep you atyour best and really firing on
all cylinders.
Nigel Rawlins (21:52):
And that's just being knowledgeable about
things.
I can tell you now that one ofthe things I've noticed, even
though I get up in the dark andI go walking, and then I do my
strength training, and then Isit down for the rest of the
day, and what I'm noticing, I'mgetting fatter around the
middle.
Now, I generally don't eat anyjunk food or anything like that,
but I don't know if it's an agething, and I don't know if other
(22:13):
people are finding this, is ifyou're a knowledge worker, and
I'm assuming most office workersare going to suffer from this,
you can go to the gym, you cando your exercise in the morning,
and then for the rest of yourday you sit down, then you sit
down on the way home, then yousit down and watch TV, and then
maybe you get up.
You're going to laugh.
My wife gave me some funny looksthe other day.
Because I've got a rising desk,I've got to keep very smart
(22:36):
about how I work because sinceI've been about 23 I've been
into fitness and health and soI've got a desk that can rise.
So I was standing for a whileand then I bought this under
desk treadmill, and that means Ican do couple of 25 minutes slow
walks whilst I'm at the standingdesk and maybe whilst I'm
learning something on a thing.
And it's unusual.
(22:57):
My wife thinks I'm a nut becauseI do this sort of stuff.
But that's what we've got to do,isn't it?
You can't do all your fitnessand health stuff and then sit on
your bum for the rest of theday.
Holly Whelan (23:07):
No, I think what you're saying is so true.
The problem is if you're doing,an office job, you are, you
know, sedentary a lot of thetime.
And, the key is, building anactivity throughout your day.
Exactly as you say.
Half an hour in the gym.
Yes, it's important, don't getme wrong, strength training is
(23:28):
important and I do that too, butactually what's more important
is moving throughout the day andactually half an hour per day is
nowhere near as much as if youwere just walking as your mode
of transport, you're justimmediately getting much more
exercise than if you went to thegym three times a week.
So I think you're right.
Habit change is deeply personal.
(23:50):
And I think that's the thing,the way that I, when I'm talking
to clients is that you need tokeep moving.
And the more activity you canhave, it is just generally the
better, it really is.
So the more you can move thebetter, cause it keeps you
fitter, it keeps youbiologically younger, but the
way you do that is deeplypersonal.
So if what you do is a standingdesk and a treadmill, that
(24:12):
sounds fantastic if you like theidea of it.
And so I have to say that soundsquite fun.
I quite like that, But a lot ofpeople like your wife just goes,
are you completely insane?
So I've got a lot of friends nowwho are totally addicted to open
water swimming and cold waterswimming.
And I have to say that soundslike the worst thing in the
world to me, but they love itand they swear by it and they
(24:35):
will walk to the Lido.
I live next to Europe's biggestLido, which is great.
And they walk there and they getin and they swim in the winter
in four degrees.
And they feel great and thatworks for them.
And they would say, that's theanswer.
I've got other people who likerunning, I'm not a massive
runner.
That works for them.
But what happens is, by your ownway, you find what works for
(24:59):
you.
So for me personally, I don'town a car, I live in London, and
so I don't need a car.
Transport's amazing, I walkeverywhere, and that walking is
how I stay fit and has alwaysbeen my way of getting my
minutes up.
And I also love it for me a bit,it's a way to connect with my
(25:20):
environment.
I can see what's going on.
It makes me happy.
I break my day off and so I geta lunchtime, I'll go for a walk.
It's a way to get out of thehome office as I start getting a
bit mental.
So yeah, it's, everyone hastheir own way, but you're right.
It is, it's how do you stop thesedentary problem.
Because otherwise you are justsitting on your bum all day.
Nigel Rawlins (25:40):
I only noticed it recently, for all the exercise I
was doing, I was putting on thefat.
And the issue, I guess, guessfor everybody who's listening
is, there's a good chance if youare self employed and you are
working at home, you are sittinga lot.
And this is going to affect yourlong term health.
And the thing you said is getyour markers, so you're
(26:02):
understanding, and get somebenchmarking going on.
And so how can they introducethis stuff into their life if
they're not doing it now?
Holly Whelan (26:12):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think the first thing from abehavior change point of view
you have to want to do it.
So I think the first thing is,we can sit here and tell people
that they should, and that'sslightly annoying, isn't it?
You don't want someone to tellyou to do it.
I think the first thing is thatyou have to want to, and there's
lots of reasons how that canhappen.
You might have a wake up call,you might have a health scare,
(26:33):
or you might, be inspired bysomeone.
The life age tests that we haveand, I'm offering for people to
just take is a way to see howyour habits are affecting you.
Are they keeping you younger orolder?
For some people be a nicereassurance they're doing the
right thing, or it might be abit of a wake up call that maybe
they should do more so that canactually stimulate, maybe I
should make some changes, butonce you've made up your mind
(26:55):
that you want to.
I think the answer is to startsmall.
I think people always, Oh, I'mgoing to be fit and I'm going to
run a marathon.
It's just too much, you're justgiving yourself, something to
fail.
And that's not behavior change,that's a wish, right?
I want to run a marathon andactually there's nothing wrong
with that.
If that's your goal, that'sfantastic, but you need to break
(27:15):
it down.
What am I going to do to getthere?
The way I look at it is like,what can you do?
If you want to just startwalking, or going to the gym in
the morning, what could you do?
So firstly, have you got theright walking shoes?
Maybe buying a pair of shoes.
That's sometimes quite a nicetrigger as well.
It's you think about, actually,I've got these shoes, I want to
(27:38):
use them.
So that can work, but only to acertain extent.
The next thing you need to do ishave the right environment.
So say you want to walk beforeyou start work or after you've
just got up, a really good tipis putting your exercise clothes
next to your bed.
And so what you do is you getup, it's there.
There's no barrier.
(27:59):
You stick that on, stick thoseshoes on and you go.
I spoke to one woman a few weeksago and she literally, I've
never heard this before, shesleeps in her exercise gear,
which I thought was a littleextreme, but she does it because
she's wearing it when she getsup and there's no excuse.
And this is something I don'tknow if you've read the book
Atomic Habits by James Clear.
(28:21):
He talks about something calledhabit stacking.
And what's interesting aboutthat is that once you have one
little habit, it could be thatthe keystone habit is just
putting on that exercise gear.
Because once you put thatexercise gear before you know it
you open the door, you're outand you're doing it.
So it's like, what is the habitwhich then stacks from there?
(28:44):
And to use a scientific phrase,it's called behavioral
activation.
Once one thing starts, thenthings start to load from there
because you're doing it youstart to feel good.
Because it's like you're doingthat thing and then if you're
doing more exercise, you tend towant to eat a little bit better.
And then as time goes on, theultimate and the thing that
(29:05):
we're all aiming for is itbecomes part of your identity.
And then once it becomes part ofyour identity, that habit is
impossible to break.
So I, for instance, I, I'm awalker.
it's now part of my identitythat I don't have a car.
And I walk everywhere.
So I don't even think about it.
I don't think about hopping inmy car.
I don't have it because it'sjust, I'm a walker.
(29:27):
And then you start loading onall sorts of things in, in
hindsight, Oh that's good forthe environment.
That's this, that saves memoney, but it's not really
what's happening.
But I think that would be startsmall, habit stack and do things
that you want to don't do thingsthat, because other people tell
you to do it, do it cause youenjoy it and then you're more
likely to keep going.
Nigel Rawlins (29:48):
Oh, definitely.
It's got to be something youlove.
And look, I did a marathon 44years ago.
Holly Whelan (29:55):
Wow.
Nigel Rawlins (29:55):
never wanted to do another one.
I just remember the end of it.
I did a very fast marathonbecause I was very light in
those days.
But, I haven't run for manyyears because I just don't like
bouncing around like thatanymore.
But I was running with some guyswho used to do a marathon every
year.
And they look like really oldmen.
It must have been really wearingthem out.
But yeah we, we know thatrunning is probably good for
(30:19):
you, but the problem when you'reolder is the potential to get
injured.
And if you injure yourself orpull a muscle, that's weeks and
weeks before you recover becausewhen you're older it takes
longer to get better and it canbe costly if you go out and,
have to see a physiotherapistbecause they're not cheap and
and so you ruin it.
So it's better to do somethingnice and gentle and work your
(30:40):
way up.
But the other interesting thingtoo, is if you do look after
your health you can be as fit assomebody who's 20 or 30 years
younger than you.
Holly Whelan (30:51):
I really agree with you, Nigel.
And there is some, I don't knowif you've seen the Instagram
sensation, Joan Train With Joan.
I love this woman.
She is such an example of notsomeone who's always been fit
all her life.
But someone who decided age 73to do something.
(31:14):
So if you check her out herstory is her daughter is a
personal trainer.
However, she was not into it atall.
And age 73, she was seriouslyoverweight.
She's Canadian, I think.
Really overweight, obese and hadtype two diabetes, was in a mess
and, her daughter was reallyupset.
So I'm like, God, you're goingto die.
And she was like, I don't care.
(31:35):
And then I think, I don't know,there was some light bulb
moment.
And she decided to start doingsomething.
I think she's now 77 or 78 andmy God, she is bench pressing
huge amounts and you can see allher muscles.
I'm not suggesting that weshould all be like Joan, but
what I think is amazing aboutthat is that, like you say, you
(31:55):
can still be extremely fit andreally turn things around.
So even if you haven't been ashealthy as you'd like.
It's not too late.
Don't believe that rhetoric.
It's not true.
You can turn it around and getfit.
As I said, the body isincredible and you can not only
lose weight and get more energy,but you can get those serious
(32:17):
issues like blood sugar markersdown.
You can effectively reverse type2 diabetes.
You can get your blood pressureright down.
And those are the things as weget older, they're the markers
that you really do want to keepgood.
I think that those things justnaturally start getting better
when you are looking afteryourself.
Your blood pressure will comedown, your blood sugars will be
(32:40):
managed.
So if you can get to a pointwhere you're just enjoying your
lifestyle and it's doing thatfor you, then you've hit the
jackpot, haven't you?
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (32:49):
And we should just explain that it does take a
little bit of time for all thatto work.
It's not going to happen in thefirst couple of weeks though.
Some of it can improve.
I must admit, I was on bloodpressure medication for about 10
years and then I must have gotto a stage with my weight and my
fitness that I didn't need themanymore.
I haven't had them for years.
Holly Whelan (33:09):
That's fantastic.
Yeah, exactly.
And it's not overnight.
I really agree.
And I think that it's gettingthings in perspective and
enjoying what you're doing foryou anyway, I think.
I think that's the key.
So enjoy the habits that you'redoing, which will also do you
good.
And there is absolutely no shamebeing on medication if you need
it.
(33:29):
Some people need it.
And I'm not one of these peoplesaid, Oh, we must never be on
medication because that's justsimply not true.
It keeps a lot of people alivewho need to be alive and add to
the world.
A lot of the men in my familyall died aged 50, because we had
familial hypercholesterolemia,which is basically genetic high
(33:49):
cholesterol, and if they're noton statins, they'd all be dead.
But now, they're on statins and,they're living till sort of 80,
90 years old, which couldn'thave happened without drugs.
So it is everything.
It's why you should get yournumbers checked as well.
Nigel Rawlins (34:03):
I think men are probably the slowest ones in
doing that.
They tend not to look aftertheir health, their mental
health as well, they don'talways look after until it
collapse and then they'relooking for a quick fix and
there isn't one.
It's, you've got to take yourtime and we may have habits, see
the whole point about, If you'regoing to be a Wisepreneur, you
want to have your mentalcapacity when you're 70 and 80
(34:25):
because if you're reallyinterested in what you're doing,
you really don't want to stop.
It doesn't mean you have to work60 hours a week.
We had on the podcast, HazelEdwards, who's an author.
She's 78 and she's stillworking, but she said she's cut
down her working hours to 35hours a week.
Holly Whelan (34:41):
Love that.
That's fabulous.
Nigel Rawlins (34:43):
that's the thing is, if you are older and you are
an expert in your field, youdon't want to be working every
day.
I do client work.
Still run a marketing servicescompany.
Today I probably spent half anhour sorting out something and
something else, but the rest ofthe day I'm reading, I'm doing
the podcast, I'm looking atarticles I want to write.
I don't want to be doing clientwork all the time.
(35:06):
I get annoyed if I don't get toread and fit my exercise in.
So that's the nature of workingwhen you're older is, plus
you've also probably got familyall my kids, they've all moved
off in different directions.
So I don't often get to seethem.
But other people have probablygot grandchildren and all sorts
of things that demand theirattention, which is really good.
Holly Whelan (35:27):
Just wanted to echo what you've just said about
working as you get older.
If you notice like, a lot of theA list celebrities, that you see
Cher or, I don't know, DollyParton or, you know, all these
people.
And they're really quiteextraordinary.
I mean, okay, they've had a lotof work done, but I'm not
talking about that.
I'm talking about energy and,and they love what they do.
(35:51):
Because it just gives themmeaning.
My dad is, you know, 89 thisyear and he still runs a, a
political blog and he lovesthat.
My mother is, in her late 70s,still teaches drama three days a
week.
And, my mom's actually quiteinteresting.
She's tried to retire twice andcan't do it because she's just
(36:12):
said, what, I need this in mylife.
And why would you mean that tosuddenly, go to nothing to doing
nothing.
So I think it's not, I think,work is really important if you,
if it brings meaning, as I said,the, it brings you back to those
quality of life habits that Iwas talking to you about, the
really important ones.
If it brings you meaning and itkeeps you personally growing,
(36:35):
that keeps you younger, that isabsolutely one of the things
which matter, but also balance.
There's some really interestingthings which are going on now,
we really need to keep olderpeople in the workforce because
as we have an aging population,it's absolutely imperative that
we keep older people in thepopulation because we haven't
got enough people comingthrough.
(36:56):
Firstly, stop the ageism thatpeople aren't recruiting old
people into the workplace, whichis one area, but the other area
is that for people who are inthe workplace, can we give them
more flexible working hours, soactually you can have all the
things that you're discussing.
Unilever, my old employer, isquite interesting.
They created a very interestingproposition where people who had
(37:17):
worked in Unilever could thenleave, but then come back as a
consultant, say two to threedays a week, but still maintain
their pension, which was thoughtwas really excellent.
So they didn't lose theexpertise.
They got two to three days aweek, which is what the people
wanted.
But didn't have to pay fullwhack.
(37:37):
I just thought that was a reallycreative way, that a corporate
was trying to maintainknowledge, but also, keep people
happy.
So I think, yeah, if you canfind the right balance,
everything in your life andwork, has a very important part.
It does keep you young, I think.
Nigel Rawlins (37:54):
I agree.
I think, even part time work,even in a supermarket or
something like that is worthdoing.
But, the thing about knowledgeworkers is that, provided that
they've kept themselves up todate and they've really been
involved in their industry or intheir domain, they're able to
earn reasonably good money forone or two days a week, or even
(38:16):
a month at a time and then amonth off.
There's that flexibility, whichis, I would hate to see,
intelligent people losing theirability to use their knowledge
to help other people.
And I'd never feel anyone who'solder is out of date.
If you saw my technical setupand you saw what I do with AI,
(38:36):
I'd be surprised if there'sanyone, geeks and nerds and
stuff like that are going tooutperform me, and people like
that, but I'd give them a go fortheir money, but I certainly
would like an IT person to comeand sort out all the bits of
wires I've got everywhere.
Holly Whelan (38:51):
I think that's just agism, all the old people
don't understand tech.
That's just simply not true.
Of course you understand thetech, it's your job and it's
your job to know it and youenjoy it.
I think this is where, ageismand prejudice is an issue, I
think.
And then a lot of people even intheir forties, much younger than
me, or, people I know in theirfifties say, Oh I, I'm not very
(39:13):
good with tech, I'm a bit oldfor that.
And they take on that sort ofageist sort of rhetoric,
internalize it and start playingit back.
And it's so annoying becauseIt's simply not true, like you
say.
It's not that difficult to usethis stuff, you just need to
keep up to date, as you say.
Nigel Rawlins (39:30):
Oh I think if, again, if you're a professional
and you're earning consultancyfees and stuff like that, you
can hire the help.
I use lots of technicalspecialists because I run the
marketing services company.
I've got a guy who I'm juststarting to do some work with.
He does automations.
So I want to automate some ofthe processes.
I don't want to have to do themanual anymore because I'm
(39:53):
really bored doing themmanually.
I want to use the brainy stuffto, get the reports, look at the
reports and see what I can dowith them and suggest.
That's using my brain.
But if I had to do the manualwork of because I look after a
number of websites, I do amonthly report.
So I had to look at thestatistics, but I've had to do
it manually, which is reallyannoying.
(40:13):
So now I'm automating.
So, you know, there are somereasonably priced, very smart
people out there who can solveall these problems for you,
whereas you can keep using yourbrain, which is what,
Wisepreneurs is about.
Not trying to do it allyourself.
Holly Whelan (40:30):
Oh God, I love that.
And I think that also, since Iset up my own business, we've
got a very small leans set upbecause, don't want to have, all
the costs of lots of staffbecause, um, especially as we
talked earlier about, the upsand downs of having business,
that can be very stressful.
Very similar to you I have areally trusted group of
affiliates who I know areabsolutely brilliant and can do
(40:53):
the things that I can't, and youjust bring them in and out as
you need.
And it's wonderful because thosepeople want to work that way as
well.
Cause they want the flexibilityto not work in a corporate.
And so once you've got yourlittle gang of people that you
can trust and you can trust withyour life.
It's a wonderful way of working.
And yeah, without all thenightmare of having paid staff
(41:15):
or all of that, that good stuff,which can be very stressful.
And sometimes you don't wantthat as you get older either.
Nigel Rawlins (41:22):
Now I've done that.
I've had an office and hademployees and you just have to
keep them busy.
And then you've got to manageit.
It's much, much niceroutsourcing provided you know
how to do it properly and you'reprepared to pay for it.
So let's come back to some ofthe other things you do, like
you work with Movember.
So tell us something about that.
Holly Whelan (41:41):
Yeah.
Movember is interesting because,I've worked with them since
2017, and, we actually answereda global RFP, a request for a
proposal for behaviour change,and they wanted to get into
behaviour change and they wantedto understand the behaviours
which we should improve men'sHealth.
But it wasn't until, got intoMovember that I realized it was
(42:03):
an Australian organization.
I had no idea.
It is definitely an Australian,organization.
And, it is all over the worldnow.
Mainly the English speakingworld, but not only the English
speaking world.
It's obviously very huge inAustralia, but it's very big in
the UK.
It's in Canada.
It's in, the US and acrossEurope as well now.
(42:24):
That's growing.
Yeah, it's a globalorganization, came out of
Australia, and, answered an RFPin 2017 and they wanted to, set
up a new health promotionagency.
section of the organization,it's a charity.
they wanted help to understandthe behaviors which really drive
men's health.
(42:45):
So we were brought in to look atwhat are the big issues for men?
What are the biggest killers ofmen?
And then what are the behaviorswhich will, mitigate that, make
that less likely to happen.
So we started there and sincethen we've done a huge amount of
work where we now actually helpthem understand, when COVID
happened, for instance, it'slike, this is a pandemic coming,
what should we do?
(43:05):
So we worked with them tounderstand the men which were
most at risk of the COVID.
So we did a big piece of workwhere we identified that teenage
boys were going to be really atrisk because we'd looked at
previous pandemics that impactwould be on mental health.
And then that led to a largepiece of work saying, what are
the behaviors that those teenageboys which are going to be
(43:27):
protective.
And that led to a large campaignworking with YouTube
influencers.
Cause you can't talk directly toa teenage boy, you need to get
someone who they respect to, toencourage certain behaviors.
And then we evaluated that.
It was firstly run just in theUK, showed that it really worked
and showed that we actually didchange behaviour, change
(43:50):
attitudes and behaviours, gotboys to, more likely to have
discussions with their friends.
And then that was then rolledout across the eight countries
in Europe.
So that was really interesting.
So yeah, we do a lot of thattype of work.
We were doing, a reallyinteresting piece of work now on
a EU big project on prostatecancer screening across Europe
(44:11):
and working on that as well.
So I love it.
I really enjoy it.
It's a great organization.
They really trying to championmen's health, trying to do it in
a way which is scientificallyrobust, but also in a fun way.
They've got a really lovely toneof voice.
And, Use a bit of humor to gettheir messages across, which is
also very important for men aswell.
(44:32):
You've got to talk to men in away, which is different to
women, as you said, rightearlier in the podcast men tend
to bury their head in the sand alittle bit more when it comes to
health.
They're less preventative.
Not all men, I shouldn't saythat it's not true, all men.
Some men are really preventativein their health but, a lot of
them will, not do anything untilthey have a wake up call.
(44:53):
So it's you do need to talk tomen in a certain way.
And, unfortunately, thehealthcare system is quite
female in the way that it talks.
It talks about your risk and youlook after yourself and women
tend to respond more to thatthan men.
You have to talk to men usingthe right language, the right
way of taking more control ofyour health, give them more
(45:13):
agency in that, you know.
You are strong if you look afteryourself, so using that type of
language rather than Oh, youmight be at risk, you better
check yourself out.
That's doesn't tend to work sowell for men.
Nigel Rawlins (45:26):
And what about Weight Watchers?
You also work with them, so isthat more female focused?
Holly Whelan (45:31):
It's not just it's not just women, but it is main
mainly women.
That was using the Life AgeTest, so they actually use that
across the UK and US.
And we looked at how couldthinking about your overall
health and your habits andhabits keeping you younger or
older, that is a very importantpart.
Weight management is a huge partof that.
(45:51):
So that was interesting workingwith them.
Weight Watchers are reallyfantastic about habit change,
and they really understand that.
They're a great organization.
It's not just, calorie deficitt.
It really is like theyunderstand habits.
They create brilliant campaignsand programs around that.
And that's why they've been sosuccessful.
Nigel Rawlins (46:10):
Is there something else you would like to
talk about
Holly Whelan (46:13):
Yeah, I think we've talked about it's
personal, which is reallyimportant.
I want to say that habit changeis really personal.
I think we've talked aboutstarting small.
Nigel Rawlins (46:23):
So Holly, how would you like people to connect
with you and find you?
Holly Whelan (46:27):
Oh it'd be lovely to connect with people.
I'm always interested in newconnections.
I think LinkedIn is the bestway.
You can find me on LinkedIn.
It's Holly Wheelan, PhD.
And you'll see yeah, I'm afounder of Habit Partners.
Nigel Rawlins (46:40):
So I'll put all those in the show notes.
And we were also talking aboutthe Life Age, so there's an
offer that you're making.
Holly Whelan (46:46):
Yeah, so I just wanted to offer people the
opportunity to take the Life AgeTest if they wanted to.
The life age test is a evidencebased tool that gives you a
scientifically validatedsnapshot of how your habits,
your daily habits are affectingyou and what you can do to
improve and feel at your best.
If you want to take that I'veset up unique access codes for
(47:08):
the Wisepreneur community andthat's valid until the 4th of
August.
Nigel Rawlins (47:13):
2024.
So if you're listening to it ina year's time, it's gone.
Holly, thank you very much forcoming along and joining me.
Holly Whelan (47:23):
Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Thanks, Nigel.
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