September 12, 2024 • 47 mins
Ask Nigel Rawlins a question or send feedback, click the link to text me.
In this episode, my guest, Gail Greatorex, is a leading expert in product safety with over 25 years of experience. Gail shares her journey from working with the Australian government to becoming a self-employed consultant, where she helps businesses navigate consumer protection laws, compliance, and product recalls.
She reflects on the freedom and flexibility of working for herself, allowing her to choose projects that align with her values and passions.
We explore the rising challenges of e-commerce safety, particularly with third-party sellers, and the risks posed by everyday items like button batteries and toppling furniture.
Gail also discusses her role in shaping regulatory standards and her passion for advocacy, establishing herself as a key voice in ensuring safer products for consumers worldwide.
Additionally, she highlights her work as co-founder of ClimateWise Associations, which promotes addressing climate risks alongside product safety.
Key Themes:
• The importance of product safety and consumer protection
• Navigating the risks of e-commerce platforms and third-party sellers
• The complexities of product recall and business compliance
• Gail’s advocacy work and influence on government regulations
• Insights into emerging product risks like button batteries and unsafe toys
• Gail’s thoughts on the freedom of self-employment and choosing value-driven projects
• ClimateWise Associations and its connection between climate risks and product safety
Mentions:
- Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC)
- Button battery safety regulations
- ClimateWise Associations https://climatewise.org.au/
- Product recalls in e-commerce
- Cherry Blossom Footsteps https://gailholloway.com/
- Manager’s Checklist https://productsafetysolutions.com.au/downloadable-resources/
Contact Details:
Website: https://productsafetysolutions.com.au/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nigel Rawlins (00:05):
My guest today is Gail Greatorex, a leading
Australian expert in productsafety with over 25 years of
experience in consumerprotection.
Gail is the advisor you wantwhen product safety issues
arise, she uses her rareexpertise to help businesses
navigate often overlookedchallenges, making her
indispensable to her clients.
(00:25):
She offers insights that gobeyond surface level advice.
I'm excited to welcome Gail backto the podcast.
She has been my client for manyyears and was my first guest.
Now 60 episodes later, we'rerevisiting her journey in
self-employment, exploring howshe balances her high-value
skills with the freedom ofindependence.
(00:47):
Gail chooses her projectscarefully, aligning them with
her values and making her thego-to expert in her field.
In this episode, Gail addressesoften overlooked product safety
challenges, and how herobjective advice, which has
significantly influencedgovernment bodies and industry
associations is crucial forbusinesses facing the
(01:09):
complexities of modern consumersafety.
If you're seeking rare andvaluable insights, insights that
solve problems others mightmiss, it's experts like Gail who
make the difference.
True specialists with deepknowledge in their field,
provide solutions that aren'teasily found elsewhere.
Their ability to foreseechallenges and offer specific
(01:32):
and focused guidance isessential in navigating complex
landscapes like product safety.
back to the Wisepreneurspodcast.
You were my first guest fouryears ago in 2020.
This is the 61st episode and Iwanted you to come back and tell
us what's been happening withyour business, Product Safety
(01:54):
Solutions.
So Gail, welcome to theWisepreneurs podcast.
Could you tell us somethingabout yourself and where you're
from?
Gail Greatorex (02:01):
Thank you, Nigel.
I'm delighted to be returning toyour podcast.
I know that you've, gone far andwide to find people to talk to,
and it's a privilege to be ableto have a repeat performance, so
to speak.
I'm based in Melbourne,Australia, and I have a long
history in consumer productsafety.
(02:23):
So, that's essentially around,the safety of everyday consumer
products, be they householdthings, especially children's
products.
So it might be bunk beds orcots, toys, uh, any of those
kind of children's products, butalso a random selection of
everyday products might besunglasses, it might be remote
(02:47):
controls containing buttonbatteries, it might be magnets
that are a problem.
There's so many bicycles,bicycle helmets, just to make
sure that they're safe.
And so I, I had a long careerwith the Australian government
agency that looks after productsafety.
That was for about 25 years andthen I left them in 2012 and
(03:11):
decided to set up my ownbusiness.
I was conscious, having workedin government, that there were
some gaps in the understandingbetween industry, retailers,
importers, manufacturers, etc.
And what government expected andneeded of them.
What consumers expected andneeded of them.
(03:31):
And on the flipside too, wheregovernment needed a better
understanding of how the marketworks.
How it changes the dynamics, thecosts and all of that sort of
thing.
So I've set up a business thatis part consulting and I consult
to a range of different types oforganizations.
(03:53):
I also run training courses forthose businesses.
These days I really call myselfan advocate as much as I am a
consultant.
I work with a couple of industryassociations that engage with
government in particular, andalso provide guidance for their
members on how to make productssafe and how to comply, but I
(04:17):
also help the associationsadvocate for the changes of a
big picture policy and that sortof thing.
So, a bit of lobbying withgovernment and engagement on
that side.
Nigel Rawlins (04:31):
So would you say over the last few years that the
nature of products, especiallywith online trading taking off
like it has since COVID, hasthat made the problem of product
safety any better or worse?
Gail Greatorex (04:47):
There are some traps associated with online
trading.
The leading platforms are makingan effort and they have actually
engaged staff to help to managetheir platforms and all of the
products, but of course, youknow, even those ones have got
such vast, vast numbers ofproducts available through their
(05:07):
own platform.
Some of which, depending onwhich ones they are, some of
which are ones that they sourcethemselves and they can more
easily manage those, but othersare third party sellers, what
they call third party sellers.
And, the checks and balances interms of product safety on that
front is much less effective.
Some of the other platforms,very high volume and less
(05:30):
infrastructure, there appears tobe very little interest in
managing product safety.
It seems like volume and, andprofit is the bottom line.
So that's a problem in itself.
In addition to the platforms andhow they operate, it's the fact
that we've got vast numbers ofindividual people who set
(05:52):
themselves up as importers andsellers.
And so they don't have that kindof background in safety.
They don't know what to look forand how to find it.
And it's even hard to find if,even if you are looking.
So, I do get some inquiries fromtime to time, and I help people
understand how it works.
(06:12):
There's a handful of people likeme in the business who can guide
people, but I would like to seethe government platforms
providing a little bit moresupport and guidance for
business, just in a generalsense, getting the basic
principles out there of how togo about finding, the right
(06:33):
information on, on making sure aproduct is safe.
Nigel Rawlins (06:37):
Okay, so if you've decided that you want to
bring in some extra income, soyou think, all right, I'll start
a little e commerce storeonline, because they're simple
to set up, and you source anumber of products from China.
How should they go aboutthinking about product safety,
if, if they've got no idea,they've just, they just want to
start a business.
(06:57):
They're busy, you know, probablyworking in a job.
What are a couple of things theyneed to keep in mind?
Gail Greatorex (07:03):
One of the simple measures that I think
people can take and I alwaysrecommend is sign up to get
details of product recalls, getnotified if there's any product
that gets recalled.
That's useful whether you're aconsumer and you're managing a
household and you want to knowwhether a product that you
purchased last week has beenrecalled.
(07:23):
It's been found to have aterrible safety flaw in it and
it's now being recalled fromeverybody.
So to protect your own family, Ithink it's very good for, for
everybody to be signed up torecall notifications.
If you're actually a smallbusiness, or any business for
that matter, that same recallsubscription list will feed you
(07:46):
through details of any productthat has been recalled.
And so that's kind of a bit offree intel because if some
business, a competitor perhaps,has had to recall the same
product, or a similar product tothe one you're selling, you can
have a look at it and say, okay,well, happily, that wasn't me
(08:08):
that got caught out with a, uh,unsafe product, but I can see
now that product that is similarto the one I'm selling, has got
a fault in it.
So.
Let me go and check if myproduct has got the same fault
in it, and then you can go awayand fix it, and you may indeed
have to end up doing your ownrecall, but generally speaking,
(08:28):
not, you know, it's a case of anopportunity to review your own
products and what has gone wrongwith, with others.
Nigel Rawlins (08:38):
So if you were one of these businesses, an e
commerce business based inAustralia, and you've imported
and you've sold a product and itgets recalled, what happens to
that business or that, thatowner?
What have they got to do?
Gail Greatorex (08:50):
you mean the owner that's conducting the
recall?
Nigel Rawlins (08:53):
They've sold the product through their e commerce
store.
What are the implications ifthere is a recall for one of the
products they've sold?
Gail Greatorex (08:59):
Well, conducting a recall is complicated and it
depends how you've sold theproduct.
If it's, if all of your salesare online, then you should have
records of everyone you've soldit to and you can directly
contact them and, and let themknow to stop using the product
and you can provide them with areplacement or refund or
(09:19):
whatever the case may be.
It's not quite as easy if you'vesold them through a physical
store, because not everyone willhave the details and you have to
rely on working out how tocontact the people and let them
know.
If you're conducting a recall,then you have to let the
government know, and in fact youhave to do that within two days
(09:41):
of making the decision torecall.
And the government agency thengets involved in helping you
work out how to achieve the bestresult of contacting your
consumers and retrieving all ofthe products.
So, the best situation with anykind of recall is to have a plan
ahead of time.
The last thing you want to do ishave a situation where you've
(10:06):
never given any thought to theidea of doing a recall in the
past and all of a sudden thegovernment knocks on your door
and says, Hey, we've had acomplaint to say that somebody's
got injured by this product, wethink you need to recall it.
You've got to work out whetherthat's legitimate.
Did the consumer actually misusethe product in some way, or did
(10:27):
it have an actual flaw in it?
So you need to understand howto, how to make that assessment
in the first place.
But at the same time, you know,you, if there's any kind of
publicity around this, you'regoing to have media hounding
you.
If you're a small business andyou go to a lawyer, the lawyer
might say, well, don't talk toanybody about this.
Don't admit any fault.
But if you've got a PR person,they'll say, Oh no, you have to
(10:49):
be up front about it.
And, do a bit of a mea culpa.
Say you're sorry on yourFacebook page or whatever.
There's those, competing forcesyou've got to contend with.
And you might have customers,giving you a hard time.
It's much better if you've givenit some thought in advance and
worked out what if, what if anyof the products that I'm selling
(11:13):
end up injuring somebody or ahazard is identified and I might
have to do a recall.
So definitely a bit offorethought and planning goes
into recall.
And that's really the case withanybody selling any kind of
consumer product.
Nigel Rawlins (11:28):
I think that's really quite an important point.
It would be crazy, and peopleprobably are crazy.
They go into something, theythink it's a fabulous product,
they sell it, But if you're atiny, tiny online reseller, that
could destroy your business, Imean, and if they're not
careful, they could bankruptthemselves, lose their house if
(11:51):
they own a house.
So there are some repercussionsfor being naive about this sort
of thing.
Gail Greatorex (11:56):
Absolutely.
There's product liability lawsas well.
So if you've sold something andit injures somebody, then they
can take you to court.
And, that's certainly to beavoided.
And if you've, sold somethingthat is not compliant with one
of the actual regulations, suchas sold a toy with a small part
(12:17):
that breaks off to a child underthree, then you would be
potentially in breach of theconsumer law and face penalties
from the enforcement agency, theregulator.
Nigel Rawlins (12:28):
Well, the point I was trying to make there is
there's a difference between theknowledge that you have, because
you are an expert in your field,as against the novice.
And it sounds like there's anawful lot of novices out there.
So they won't know how to thinkabout this thing.
They see, well, I think some ofthe things you've talked about
is the children's headrestraints car seats and other
(12:51):
things.
Could you explain what they are,rather than me go on a bit.
Somebody obviously thoughtsomething was lovely for little
babies, but there was a a bitewith it.
Gail Greatorex (13:00):
Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why
government has to step in andwhy conscientious businesses
actually learn enough abouttheir product to identify where
there might be a hazard.
It's not always obvious to theconsumer.
It's not always obvious to asmall business person who
doesn't take the time to, tolook at what safety is involves.
(13:24):
You mentioned the headstrap, sowhat you're referring to there
is a little project that I'vehad.
I saw something on my LinkedInfeed I think, and that's often
my source of information ofunusual hazards.
You never know when a new hazardis going to emerge.
So, somebody has come up withthe idea of having a little head
(13:44):
strap that children can wearwhen they're sitting in the car
seat, and it loops around theirforehead and attaches to the
back of the child restraint,with the idea that it stops
their head lolling about.
in the car, especially if theyfall asleep.
Now, a lot of people wouldthink, well, that's a good idea.
It seems a bit uncomfortable andmaybe even unsafe to have your
(14:08):
child's head lolling around.
And we're talking kind ofchildren, the ones that are
sitting up in the car seat.
So maybe between two or threeand six, something like that.
And so, it seems like a goodidea, it's a very simple
product, but I read online thatif in the case of your car
having a collision, anythingrestraining the head from moving
(14:32):
forward, the thrust of thecollision will move your body
forward and if your head is notcoming at the same time, then it
can actually break the child'sneck.
It only takes a split second andit can be life affecting or even
fatal.
I'm pleased to say actually thatwe haven't identified any
(14:56):
Australian physical stores thatare selling them.
The main way that they're beingsold is through overseas online
platforms.
And so I actually led a group ofroad safety and related experts
to lobby for a, a ban on them.
And, the ACCC, being theAustralian Competition and
(15:18):
Consumer Commission, which looksafter product safety and the
consumer law, is considering thesituation at the moment.
The first step there was thatthe minister actually released a
warning notice in the last fewweeks to advise consumers to
stop using them and stoppurchasing them.
As we said, you can't reallyanticipate that there's a hazard
(15:39):
with those and, and that's wherethe government needs to step in
to, to help manage these things.
Nigel Rawlins (15:46):
Now, one of your other projects that we did talk
about, I think on the firstepisode, was button batteries.
And there's been a victorythere, hasn't there?
So what's happened with buttonbatteries?
Gail Greatorex (15:55):
Well, I'm pleased to say that the
Australian Competition andConsumer Commission has actually
led the world in introducing amandatory standard for button
batteries.
In fact, there's standards thatapply to both batteries
themselves.
So spare batteries, which nowrequire childproof packaging and
(16:16):
warning labels.
It's the reason why we allstruggle to open our packet of
batteries, which seems veryfrustrating, but it's come about
through necessity.
And, the other standards are forproducts that actually use
button batteries.
So they now have to have, childresistant compartments and
(16:37):
warnings.
Now, just to give you somebackground, the problem with
button batteries is that youngchildren in particular are prone
to swallowing batteries.
In fact, seen a study that saidthe most common thing that
toddlers will swallow will becoins.
Now, we've got fewer and fewercoins around at the moment.
(16:59):
Those button batteries that aresimilar to a coin's shape and
size, if they can get stuck inthe child's esophagus, on the
way between their throat andtheir stomach.
And if it lodges there, then itwill start to react.
It actually activates the chargein the battery and it starts
burning through the muscle thatis in your esophagus.
(17:22):
And of course, that's a terriblething.
It's not something that isobvious to a consumer without
thinking about it, or even ifthey do think about it.
I'm pleased to say that thelevel of awareness is now very
high in Australia.
I don't talk to very manypeople, certainly not parents,
who aren't very aware andvigilant on button batteries,
(17:44):
but it's something that I gotinvolved with around about 10
years ago, although it had beenan issue prior to that.
It's not, wasn't something I,involve myself with, but I've
recognized the extent of thechallenge that's involved with
this particular product problem.
So I helped work on the industryguidelines and I helped work
(18:08):
with associations to work outwhat the standards should
comprise and then the guidelinesabout how to meet the standards.
They still ended up being quitecomplex and businesses are still
struggling to, to meet thestandards.
It's always a problem when yougo first in writing a brand new
standard.
(18:28):
Other jurisdictions around theworld, including the USA, have
brought in some new standards,which is great, new regulations.
So there's starting to be a bitmore effort there, and I think
finally the battery companiesand other independent
researchers are trying to workout how to resolve the problem
altogether.
So, it requires an all in effortof all sectors to try to work
(18:52):
out how best to manage this,but, I've been frustrated that
despite the fact that theAustralian regulation has been
in place for more than 12 monthsnow, there's still about two
recalls a month or maybe evenone a week these days.
So either the businesses haven'tgot the message or the standards
(19:13):
are too tricky to meet fully,I'm not sure which, but I did
post a blog recently on mywebsite to say one of the
measures that I think that couldbe being taken by the government
is for them to work for the ACCCto work with the customs people
to require a Declaration ofCompliance where any importer
(19:37):
brings in a product that uses abutton battery in it.
So I'm hoping that the ACCC is,is engaging with the border
force agency to bring thatabout.
Cause you know, there's so manydifferent products increasingly
electronic these days.
One of the things that of theresponsible businesses have done
(19:57):
is telling their manufacturersto not include a button battery.
And the other thing is to havesomething that's rechargeable
where there's inaccessiblebatteries and you just use a USB
to recharge it.
So there's ways and means andhopefully we'll get there, but
not there yet.
Nigel Rawlins (20:15):
Okay.
Anybody listening can tell thatyou're an expert in the product
safety field.
How do you keep up to dateyourself?
What do you do to keep your mindsharp and focused on these
issues?
Gail Greatorex (20:26):
Well.
I mentioned that I get a bit ofintel from LinkedIn through my
contacts and other things thatcome through on that platform.
I get an email from Google ifanything comes up with button
battery in it or magnet andswallow, if you swallow more
than one powerful magnet,that'll cause problems in your
digestive system as well.
(20:47):
So, probably one email a day atleast on that front.
Oh, and toppling furniture.
That's another, been another oneof my main projects, with, with
the risk of particular types offurniture being climbed on by
children and then toppling, andhaving potential crushing
injuries.
One of the other main ways Istay in touch is with these
(21:11):
associations and their productsafety committees.
I work with the National RetailAssociation and with the Infant
and Nursery Product Alliance.
They're two of the most activein the area that I work in and
I'm so impressed with the workthat gets done.
People take on differentprojects and quite often, a
(21:32):
couple of times I've actuallyraised an issue that I've seen
on my socials, and they'll takethem on and say, okay, let's
form a working group to go andsort out how best to manage this
one.
Nigel Rawlins (21:43):
Now, I guess the thing I'm thinking about here is
obviously we've got some majorcompanies across Australia and
in the other advanced industrialcountries as well.
Do they have people working inproduct safety within these
companies?
I think you mentioned some ofthe big online companies do.
What are some of the positionsthey have?
And, how do they go abouttraining themselves up to be
(22:05):
expert like you?
Gail Greatorex (22:06):
I think that it's a lot of learning on the
job.
I think they have created someof their own in house learning.
But there is no formal trainingtraining program for product
safety, which is a frustrationof mine.
The people who work as productsafety practitioners and
compliance practitioners, a lotof them are within the big
retail firms.
(22:28):
You know, Australia doesn't haveterribly many manufacturers
these days, but those that we dohave and those elsewhere, they
really get their heads aroundthe issue of how to assess a
product for where the hazardsmight lie.
And then whether there's astandard that tells you how to
address those hazards, or ifthere's not a standard, then
(22:51):
they have their ownunderstanding of the sort of
measures that you can put inplace to, to counteract that
hazard.
Ideally you'll eliminate it, butthere's a process you go
through.
If you can't eliminate thehazard then you might put a
guard in, or put some other kindof stopgap that stops the actual
(23:12):
hazard from being as likely tooccur.
The number of products that areon the market is always growing.
The number of regulations thatare in place around the world
seems to grow exponentially aswell.
The job that these practitionershave is just extraordinary
(23:33):
because they're not just lookingat the product itself.
They then have to manage theirrelationship with their own
company, where the buyers arewanting to either have some
attractive little element on aproduct, which may or may not be
safe.
And they want to get the productfor the cheapest price, which
might mean that there's a riskof cheaper materials or cheaper
(23:56):
production practices.
So they have to negotiate thatin house, and they then have to
possibly negotiate it with thesuppliers themselves.
So a bit of supply chainmanagement.
We've got, not just themanufacturer, but you've got
your distributor or yourwholesaler.
(24:16):
And at the other end, at thevery start of the manufacturing
process, you've got your rawmaterial suppliers.
So there has to be checks andbalances for all of those to
make sure that it's working.
And then there's testingcompanies and third party
inspectors.
All of this has to be factoredin by these practitioners.
(24:37):
So I really don't envy themtheir job.
And in Australia we've gotgenerally got some good
harmonization nationwide, butelectrical products is regulated
by each different state andthey're all different, and that
gives everybody nightmares.
Thankfully, there's some actionat government level to try to
(24:58):
fix that at the moment.
But I do worry that there's notraining, there's no recognized
qualifications, and withoutthat, it's less attractive as a
career option, so this is whereI'd like to see a bit more
support for those practitionersin the game.
Nigel Rawlins (25:15):
Now, that's an interesting point because you
are an expert, from havingworked for the ACCC in Australia
and through the work you've doneover the number of years, you've
become more expert in this.
Yet, if there's not a lot ofsupport for product safety
people within the organisations,who's going to replace you when
you've said, I've had enough?
(25:36):
Who's going to be the experts inAustralia if they're not coming
through.
Gail Greatorex (25:39):
Well, that's right.
I'm pleased to say there havebeen a couple of younger people
going out into the consultingbusiness lately, which is very
heartening.
Most of the people who areinvolved and active and
proactive are getting older.
So, it's a bit of a concern.
Nigel Rawlins (25:57):
Okay, let's Just shift a little bit.
You're self employed.
You're running your ownbusiness.
How do you go about getting newbusiness or attracting these
people who need your help?
And what are some of the thingsyou do?
You mentioned training andconsulting.
What are some of the otherthings you also do?
But how do you get people tofind you?
gail_1_08-28-2024_144737 (26:18):
Oh, look, I think that thanks to
your advice back in the earlydays of me starting off, I've
set up a website with quite afew standard pages that are
available, but, I also writeblog posts that keep people
informed on new issues, andsometimes they argue for one
particular course of action, oralert people to a new safety
(26:42):
problem.
And, by maintaining the websiteit seems to keep me front and
centre on search engines.
Whereas I mentioned that there'sa few other consultants around,
but they don't have the samelevel of online presence as far
as I know to manage theirsearchability.
So that's, that's one of themain things I think quite often,
(27:03):
where I get a inquiry out of theblue, it'll be somebody who's
just found me by doing a simplesearch.
I guess that's the main way somepeople can sometimes find me
through LinkedIn too, I guess.
And, and as well through mynetworking, by doing some of the
advocacy, which a lot of whichis unpaid, I'm still putting
(27:25):
myself front of mind for peoplewho then understand that I can
potentially help them out withdifferent aspects of their
product safety needs.
Nigel Rawlins (27:34):
I guess you could also say you're in a very
specialist niche too.
There's not many competitors inyour field, and that helps.
Plus, I should be honest, I'veworked with you for many, many
years.
I'm a backend marketing servicesperson.
So you're one of the websites,or I think you've got two
websites.
I look after, you have gotseveral hundred pages on your
website.
(27:54):
I haven't done that work.
You've done all that work.
You've been writing thearticles, and they are
specialist articles, and I getto see, Gail's statistics, and
she does pretty well.
But you've also put a lot ofeffort into, and I haven't done
this myself, but you havedownloadable papers.
And, one in particular is yourmanager's checklist.
So tell us something about that.
Gail Greatorex (28:15):
That's one of the products that I've got on my
website.
It's a two A4 sheet sizedchecklist, which is a summary of
the two ISO standards on how tomake products that are safe and
how to manage them after they'veleft the factory, which includes
the recall side of it.
(28:37):
The two standards are globalstandards and the only two real
documents of their kind.
And I just thought in developingthe checklist, it was just
simply a lot of considerationsfor managing product safety.
And I've called it a manager'schecklist because I was hoping
to target the managers and themiddle managers, or even the
(28:59):
executives in a big business.
And I've published that, oh, itmust be eight years ago now, I
suppose.
And it's the most downloadedthing that I have.
And, the people who aredownloading it are from all
around the world.
And I haven't done much topromote it actually, and that's
(29:20):
something that you and I havebeen going to talk about is how
we might better raise awarenessof that checklist that's clearly
a unique product and of greathelp to anybody who's trying to
get their heads around how to doproduct safety.
We've been talking about doingsome little video or slideshows,
that sort of thing, just tocomplement the checklist, show
(29:44):
that it's not just a staticdocument, but something that's a
little bit more alive.
Nigel Rawlins (29:49):
Well, the reason I wanted to bring that up is
because this is an issue for anyprofessional working for
themselves is to attract peopleto their websites.
And one way of doing it is tohave some downloadable documents
or something that's helpful totheir particular client group
that they'd like to work with.
And obviously they're supposedto capture emails and put them
(30:11):
onto their email list and thatsort of stuff, which is quite
helpful.
And you've done that, and I'veseen the stats, so I know how
successful that is for you.
And I have seen who downloadsit, and, these are major
manufacturing companies acrossthe world.
Not just China, Sweden, I'venoticed Germany and, fairly big
companies.
So they obviously see somethingin there.
(30:32):
So that's the message to anyonewho's running their own
business.
Okay, so can you tell ussomething about how you actually
go about your work?
And then I want to talk aboutsome of the other projects
you've taken on, because, one ofthe issues is that life's not
all about business when you're abit older.
How do you go about tackling thejobs you've got to do?
(30:52):
So, somebody wants you to do ajob, so you take that on.
How do you sort of balanceeverything?
Gail Greatorex (30:58):
I'm not sure I've got a good answer on that,
Nigel.
I'm an infinitely distractibleperson.
And, the, good thing is that Ienjoy what I'm doing.
So, if there's a task that's infront of me that I know needs
doing, then I'll just sit downand do it basically.
And.
It's a case of just keeping aneye on what else is in the
(31:20):
background, needs doing.
Not many of my projects involvemore than a day or a week's
work.
They're all pretty short.
And so, it's easy to strike abalance with different things
that come in.
Nigel Rawlins (31:32):
In terms of projects, do you take all
projects on, or are you a bitselective with the projects
gail_1_08-28-2024_144737 (31:38):
Well, in terms of requests that come
in from businesses, I quiteoften we'll refer those to one
of my associates, either becauseI don't feel as though I have
quite the necessary expertise,or, I just want to do something
else.
A lot of the other project work,you might call it, might be
(31:59):
advocating for certain policychanges, including regulatory
policy.
So, for example, the topplingfurniture issue has been one
that I voluntarily took on andworked with the National Retail
Association.
And more recently, the ACCC hasintroduced a mandatory standard,
(32:20):
but there were some practicalconsiderations that needed
fixing.
And I then organized a workinggroup meeting and then I put
together a submission in orderto hopefully get some better
guidance happening on how tocomply.
Nigel Rawlins (32:37):
And the secret there is you know what you're
doing, and this doesn't soundlike it's too complicated to do.
Obviously, because you do workfor yourself and you have some
choices, what are some of theother things you've taken on,
not so much to do with yourbusiness, that you find
interesting to do?
Gail Greatorex (32:53):
I realized I had a real pleasure in writing, and
I do a bit of business writingwith my blogs and my advocacy,
but I tried my hand at creativewriting a little while ago and
ended up self publishing anovel.
At the time it was the only bitof creative writing I had done,
and I didn't expect to write anovel.
(33:15):
And I deliberately chose not todo any study on how to write,
because I simply didn't want toput any pressure on myself about
while I was doing it, am I doingthis the correct way?
So it started off as actually astress release project, and it
(33:36):
was straight from head tokeyboard and I thoroughly
enjoyed it.
The book that I wrote is atravel narrative, a little
fictionalized travel story, witha bit of romance thrown in and
it's an engaging read withoutbeing a challenging one.
I decided not to approach apublisher, but I've had a
(33:58):
limited amount of success inactually selling the book
through Amazon and other means.
The novel is called CherryBlossom Footsteps, and I use the
pseudonym, Nom de Plume, if youwill of Gail Holloway, just to
keep my writing separate fromprofessional life.
So this was just a hobby really,I'm only counting it as a hobby,
(34:20):
and it actually cost me quite abit to publish it, but that's
the price I was happy to pay.
I've said my next book would besomething more meaty, and now,
having written about 25, 000words, I realized I can't just
wing it like I did with thefirst one.
And, I sat down to do thewriting, I thought, Oh, I don't
(34:42):
know where this is going, whatthe plot line is.
So I found a book about how toplan a novel.
It's actually a local publishedauthor called Graeme Simsion,
who wrote The Rosie Project, andhe's actually a screenwriter.
And so he's got a particularapproach to planning, and so I'm
(35:06):
trying to follow everything thathe's got in his book, but he's
basically said the planning hasto take place completely before
the novel gets going, and if youdon't do that then you'll have a
much poorer result.
So, much as I like to just sitdown and, and type and write,
uh, I'm trying to work out how Ican actually get enjoyment out
(35:30):
of the planning process.
And it does take a bit of freeheadspace in which to do that.
And I've just taken two weeksoff and gone interstate to try
and allow that space to becreated and then continue where
I've picked up and get it going.
Nigel Rawlins (35:50):
That's an interesting way of looking at
things, is that you have toallow yourself headspace to do
this sort of stuff, and that'sone of the biggest things about
being an older self employedperson, I'm going on about this
a little bit, is that, you know,there's other things we want to
do apart from just running abusiness, you know, but there
are some projects we want to do.
(36:11):
All right, do you think byhaving done some fiction writing
that it changes how you do yournon fiction writing, say your
blog articles.
gail_1_08-28-2024_144737 (36:20):
I'd say so.
Yes, I've got a little bit morethought about how I set up an
opinion piece, especially if I'mdoing some advocacy, I, I need
to factor in how to engagepeople early on with, with the
topic.
And then run my argument.
Yeah, so it's, it's about beinga little bit creative in, in how
you're putting things together.
(36:40):
I know that I used to, havingworked with government for so
long, I used to have arelatively bureaucratic style.
And I think I've moved away fromthat, so it's, I can give some
credit to my creative writing onthat front.
Nigel Rawlins (36:52):
That's a positive, isn't it?
Now, you've also had a majorproject that I have been
involved in, in the back endsort of thing, on Climate Wise.
So tell us, how did that comeabout?
Gail Greatorex (37:03):
Okay, so back in the beginning of 2020, Australia
was experiencing the severebushfires that made news all
around the world.
We had Sydney shrouded in smoke,and we had those massive
bushfires down in easternVictoria, where they had to
evacuate a town by gettingpeople onto naval ships.
(37:27):
And it went for weeks, and thewhole country was very unsettled
by all of that.
And my good friend, HelenMillicer, a climate advocate and
sustainability expert, called afew people around to her house
of just a few friends and said,what could we as a group of
random professionals do tocontribute to managing climate
(37:50):
change?
So that was the first time I'dreally had any involvement in
doing anything apart fromsorting my recycling.
And, after doing a little bit ofwork on lobbying local council
to some good effect, we thought,well, what else can we do?
And, because I work withassociations in product safety
(38:11):
and know them to be drivers ofgood action.
I thought, well, let's see ifany climate programs have been
targeting associations.
And it turned out that wecouldn't find any, certainly not
in Australia and hardly anyelsewhere.
And so we recognized thatassociations have got enormous
(38:32):
influence with their members,but also up the line to
government as well.
And some of them lobbygovernment and they also work
with their fellow associationsin their own general sector.
So we set about developing someways in which we could help
associations become moreproactive because the other
(38:54):
advantage of associations isthat they are, experts in their
own little sector or field.
Nobody knows furnituremanufacturing like the Furniture
Manufacturing Association andnobody knows electrical products
like the Electrical ProductsAssociation.
So they have got their ownexpertise and what they can do
is sit down and look at, well,where are the risks being
(39:17):
imposed by climate change andwhat are the opportunities?
So opportunities might beshifting to a cheaper energy
source that's renewable.
Opportunities might be shiftingtheir finances to companies that
make sustainability a priority.
Some of the risks actuallyevolved and became apparent
during COVID, which happenedfrom that same time.
(39:40):
Supply chain disruption.
What happens if a major storm orother kind of disruption affects
the supply of your products orthe spare parts for your
products.
And that means that your wholebusiness has to go on hold.
So doing some planning toidentify what the risks are and
(40:00):
how you can manage those seemedlike something that associations
could do together with theirmembers and, you know, we know
that a lot of associations arerun on a shoestring, but we took
that into account by saying, putthe message out to your members
and chances are you'll probablyfind that there's a handful of
(40:22):
members who are already thinkingabout these issues, may be
willing to share thatinformation with their fellow
members, may be willing to leada working group on how to
usefully manage all of thosethings within your sector and
how to identify what the risksand opportunities are.
So it's an idea that has, wethink, has got great potential
(40:48):
and I'm pleased to say thatwe've got a really good website
now that is essentially a selfhelp website.
So any association or any memberof an association can go on and
find resources on that website.
It's Climate Wise Associationsand the, URL is climatewise.
(41:08):
org.
au.
We deliberately made it at nocost at all to any participant
to download and use any of thematerials that we've provided.
We've got all sorts ofguidelines, checklists, a self
rating benchmarking tool.
Lots and lots of information toget you started and in fact
(41:28):
we've organized it for some interms of if you're just starting
out, here are these five thingsthat you can do.
So it's very much available.
We were hoping to hand this overto an NGO or some other
organization to work with, witha bit more engagement and
promotion.
Because Helen and I have bothbeen doing this as a side
(41:49):
project, with no funding and westill hopeful that we might get
some funding.
So if anybody listening to thispodcast thinks, Oh, there's a
good idea.
It wouldn't take a lot offunding to put it together.
And it can build from there, andwe've got a range of business
models where there is a fee forservice involved.
(42:10):
And we would Be happy to have aconversation with anybody if
they're interested.
Nigel Rawlins (42:15):
So what I'm hearing is the projects you're
involved in and your website isall trying to be helpful and
trying to inform and helppeople.
And, that's a wonderful thing.
So you've been actually giving alot of your energy and a lot of
your time, plus working, whichis good.
So, is there any advice youwould give to somebody who is
(42:37):
working and considering whetherthey want to become self
employed or become anindependent professional.
Gail Greatorex (42:43):
Well, I guess if you can find something that you
enjoy doing and or arepassionate about, it makes all
the difference.
I do it because I like thechallenge and I know that I'm
doing good work for the benefitof the broader community.
And it's an opportunity to workwith some really good people who
(43:05):
I enjoy their company.
I enjoy getting together to tryand work through some issues.
I'm not very good at sittingdown doing nothing.
So, I do it because I enjoydoing it.
And, you know, that makes allthe difference in terms of your
motivation to get the work doneand to achieve something
meaningful.
nigel-rawlins_1_08-28-202 (43:25):
Yeah, but I think the other thing
you've been commenting on is youwent off to Brisbane for a
couple of weeks so you couldfocus on your writing.
So you're, you've got a balancein there.
So you're, you're choosing tonot work all the time.
So that's an important thing.
I mean, I think when you'reolder and I'll just be clear
here when I'm talking aboutolder, I'm older than you, so
(43:48):
I'm not saying you're old oranything like that, is that it's
not all about work.
It's, it's about having a lifebecause you've spent a lifetime
getting the expertise.
It's just being focused withthat expertise that you've got.
Gail Greatorex (44:01):
I've spent relatively a lifetime working
full time for an employer.
And it's nice not to have to dothat.
And you know, the, it's not onlythe flexibility, but the
autonomy, you can make your owndecisions.
You're not answerable to peopleif you don't want to be and
that's important.
That's important to me.
And I certainly, it's a veryflexible arrangement that I have
(44:24):
in terms of how much time Ispend working and, uh, which
days I work and that sort ofthing.
Nigel Rawlins (44:30):
I totally agree with that because, I don't think
I can actually start a morningbefore 10 o'clock.
Gail Greatorex (44:35):
No, but it's not, you don't, you don't get up
at like 9.
30 and say, okay, I can start at10.
You're up early, and you'redoing exercise and you're
probably, gathering some eggsfrom your garden or something.
No, the chickens Ah, ah,
Nigel Rawlins (44:52):
No, those little rotters, they were controlling
me.
So anyone who's got chickenswill know what I mean.
They've got a tiny little brainbut they totally control you.
Now I do get up fairly early andI go for walks and I do my
exercise and then I have mycoffee, waste a bit of time on
Twitter and then I start andthen I have a nice lunch.
(45:14):
But that's the whole idea ofworking.
I don't even know what we callourselves anymore.
Wise Elders, as Meredith Fullerkeeps calling us.
But at the same time, we'restill wanting to do some work
that we love to do.
All right.
So, how would you like people tofind you?
Gail Greatorex (45:30):
Well, product safety solutions.
Uh.com au is the website for myproduct safety business.
Also see my face pop up on theClimate Wise Associations
website.
There is a website for GailHolloway author.
But maybe it's easiest just viaLinkedIn.
I do some regular posts thereand it's an easy way to engage
(45:53):
with people.
Nigel Rawlins (45:54):
I will put all of those in the show notes, so
these will be able to be found.
So thank you Gail for beingguest 61, 60 episodes later.
It was fabulous talking to youagain.
gail_1_08-28-2024_14473 (46:07):
Thanks, Nigel.
I enjoyed it
My guest today is Gail Greatorex, a leading
Australian expert in productsafety with over 25 years of
experience in consumerprotection.
Gail is the advisor you wantwhen product safety issues
arise, she uses her rareexpertise to help businesses
navigate often overlookedchallenges, making her
indispensable to her clients.
(00:25):
She offers insights that gobeyond surface level advice.
I'm excited to welcome Gail backto the podcast.
She has been my client for manyyears and was my first guest.
Now 60 episodes later, we'rerevisiting her journey in
self-employment, exploring howshe balances her high-value
skills with the freedom ofindependence.
(00:47):
Gail chooses her projectscarefully, aligning them with
her values and making her thego-to expert in her field.
In this episode, Gail addressesoften overlooked product safety
challenges, and how herobjective advice, which has
significantly influencedgovernment bodies and industry
associations is crucial forbusinesses facing the
(01:09):
complexities of modern consumersafety.
If you're seeking rare andvaluable insights, insights that
solve problems others mightmiss, it's experts like Gail who
make the difference.
True specialists with deepknowledge in their field,
provide solutions that aren'teasily found elsewhere.
Their ability to foreseechallenges and offer specific
(01:32):
and focused guidance isessential in navigating complex
landscapes like product safety.
back to the Wisepreneurspodcast.
You were my first guest fouryears ago in 2020.
This is the 61st episode and Iwanted you to come back and tell
us what's been happening withyour business, Product Safety
(01:54):
Solutions.
So Gail, welcome to theWisepreneurs podcast.
Could you tell us somethingabout yourself and where you're
from?
Gail Greatorex (02:01):
Thank you, Nigel.
I'm delighted to be returning toyour podcast.
I know that you've, gone far andwide to find people to talk to,
and it's a privilege to be ableto have a repeat performance, so
to speak.
I'm based in Melbourne,Australia, and I have a long
history in consumer productsafety.
(02:23):
So, that's essentially around,the safety of everyday consumer
products, be they householdthings, especially children's
products.
So it might be bunk beds orcots, toys, uh, any of those
kind of children's products, butalso a random selection of
everyday products might besunglasses, it might be remote
(02:47):
controls containing buttonbatteries, it might be magnets
that are a problem.
There's so many bicycles,bicycle helmets, just to make
sure that they're safe.
And so I, I had a long careerwith the Australian government
agency that looks after productsafety.
That was for about 25 years andthen I left them in 2012 and
(03:11):
decided to set up my ownbusiness.
I was conscious, having workedin government, that there were
some gaps in the understandingbetween industry, retailers,
importers, manufacturers, etc.
And what government expected andneeded of them.
What consumers expected andneeded of them.
(03:31):
And on the flipside too, wheregovernment needed a better
understanding of how the marketworks.
How it changes the dynamics, thecosts and all of that sort of
thing.
So I've set up a business thatis part consulting and I consult
to a range of different types oforganizations.
(03:53):
I also run training courses forthose businesses.
These days I really call myselfan advocate as much as I am a
consultant.
I work with a couple of industryassociations that engage with
government in particular, andalso provide guidance for their
members on how to make productssafe and how to comply, but I
(04:17):
also help the associationsadvocate for the changes of a
big picture policy and that sortof thing.
So, a bit of lobbying withgovernment and engagement on
that side.
Nigel Rawlins (04:31):
So would you say over the last few years that the
nature of products, especiallywith online trading taking off
like it has since COVID, hasthat made the problem of product
safety any better or worse?
Gail Greatorex (04:47):
There are some traps associated with online
trading.
The leading platforms are makingan effort and they have actually
engaged staff to help to managetheir platforms and all of the
products, but of course, youknow, even those ones have got
such vast, vast numbers ofproducts available through their
(05:07):
own platform.
Some of which, depending onwhich ones they are, some of
which are ones that they sourcethemselves and they can more
easily manage those, but othersare third party sellers, what
they call third party sellers.
And, the checks and balances interms of product safety on that
front is much less effective.
Some of the other platforms,very high volume and less
(05:30):
infrastructure, there appears tobe very little interest in
managing product safety.
It seems like volume and, andprofit is the bottom line.
So that's a problem in itself.
In addition to the platforms andhow they operate, it's the fact
that we've got vast numbers ofindividual people who set
(05:52):
themselves up as importers andsellers.
And so they don't have that kindof background in safety.
They don't know what to look forand how to find it.
And it's even hard to find if,even if you are looking.
So, I do get some inquiries fromtime to time, and I help people
understand how it works.
(06:12):
There's a handful of people likeme in the business who can guide
people, but I would like to seethe government platforms
providing a little bit moresupport and guidance for
business, just in a generalsense, getting the basic
principles out there of how togo about finding, the right
(06:33):
information on, on making sure aproduct is safe.
Nigel Rawlins (06:37):
Okay, so if you've decided that you want to
bring in some extra income, soyou think, all right, I'll start
a little e commerce storeonline, because they're simple
to set up, and you source anumber of products from China.
How should they go aboutthinking about product safety,
if, if they've got no idea,they've just, they just want to
start a business.
(06:57):
They're busy, you know, probablyworking in a job.
What are a couple of things theyneed to keep in mind?
Gail Greatorex (07:03):
One of the simple measures that I think
people can take and I alwaysrecommend is sign up to get
details of product recalls, getnotified if there's any product
that gets recalled.
That's useful whether you're aconsumer and you're managing a
household and you want to knowwhether a product that you
purchased last week has beenrecalled.
(07:23):
It's been found to have aterrible safety flaw in it and
it's now being recalled fromeverybody.
So to protect your own family, Ithink it's very good for, for
everybody to be signed up torecall notifications.
If you're actually a smallbusiness, or any business for
that matter, that same recallsubscription list will feed you
(07:46):
through details of any productthat has been recalled.
And so that's kind of a bit offree intel because if some
business, a competitor perhaps,has had to recall the same
product, or a similar product tothe one you're selling, you can
have a look at it and say, okay,well, happily, that wasn't me
(08:08):
that got caught out with a, uh,unsafe product, but I can see
now that product that is similarto the one I'm selling, has got
a fault in it.
So.
Let me go and check if myproduct has got the same fault
in it, and then you can go awayand fix it, and you may indeed
have to end up doing your ownrecall, but generally speaking,
(08:28):
not, you know, it's a case of anopportunity to review your own
products and what has gone wrongwith, with others.
Nigel Rawlins (08:38):
So if you were one of these businesses, an e
commerce business based inAustralia, and you've imported
and you've sold a product and itgets recalled, what happens to
that business or that, thatowner?
What have they got to do?
Gail Greatorex (08:50):
you mean the owner that's conducting the
recall?
Nigel Rawlins (08:53):
They've sold the product through their e commerce
store.
What are the implications ifthere is a recall for one of the
products they've sold?
Gail Greatorex (08:59):
Well, conducting a recall is complicated and it
depends how you've sold theproduct.
If it's, if all of your salesare online, then you should have
records of everyone you've soldit to and you can directly
contact them and, and let themknow to stop using the product
and you can provide them with areplacement or refund or
(09:19):
whatever the case may be.
It's not quite as easy if you'vesold them through a physical
store, because not everyone willhave the details and you have to
rely on working out how tocontact the people and let them
know.
If you're conducting a recall,then you have to let the
government know, and in fact youhave to do that within two days
(09:41):
of making the decision torecall.
And the government agency thengets involved in helping you
work out how to achieve the bestresult of contacting your
consumers and retrieving all ofthe products.
So, the best situation with anykind of recall is to have a plan
ahead of time.
The last thing you want to do ishave a situation where you've
(10:06):
never given any thought to theidea of doing a recall in the
past and all of a sudden thegovernment knocks on your door
and says, Hey, we've had acomplaint to say that somebody's
got injured by this product, wethink you need to recall it.
You've got to work out whetherthat's legitimate.
Did the consumer actually misusethe product in some way, or did
(10:27):
it have an actual flaw in it?
So you need to understand howto, how to make that assessment
in the first place.
But at the same time, you know,you, if there's any kind of
publicity around this, you'regoing to have media hounding
you.
If you're a small business andyou go to a lawyer, the lawyer
might say, well, don't talk toanybody about this.
Don't admit any fault.
But if you've got a PR person,they'll say, Oh no, you have to
(10:49):
be up front about it.
And, do a bit of a mea culpa.
Say you're sorry on yourFacebook page or whatever.
There's those, competing forcesyou've got to contend with.
And you might have customers,giving you a hard time.
It's much better if you've givenit some thought in advance and
worked out what if, what if anyof the products that I'm selling
(11:13):
end up injuring somebody or ahazard is identified and I might
have to do a recall.
So definitely a bit offorethought and planning goes
into recall.
And that's really the case withanybody selling any kind of
consumer product.
Nigel Rawlins (11:28):
I think that's really quite an important point.
It would be crazy, and peopleprobably are crazy.
They go into something, theythink it's a fabulous product,
they sell it, But if you're atiny, tiny online reseller, that
could destroy your business, Imean, and if they're not
careful, they could bankruptthemselves, lose their house if
(11:51):
they own a house.
So there are some repercussionsfor being naive about this sort
of thing.
Gail Greatorex (11:56):
Absolutely.
There's product liability lawsas well.
So if you've sold something andit injures somebody, then they
can take you to court.
And, that's certainly to beavoided.
And if you've, sold somethingthat is not compliant with one
of the actual regulations, suchas sold a toy with a small part
(12:17):
that breaks off to a child underthree, then you would be
potentially in breach of theconsumer law and face penalties
from the enforcement agency, theregulator.
Nigel Rawlins (12:28):
Well, the point I was trying to make there is
there's a difference between theknowledge that you have, because
you are an expert in your field,as against the novice.
And it sounds like there's anawful lot of novices out there.
So they won't know how to thinkabout this thing.
They see, well, I think some ofthe things you've talked about
is the children's headrestraints car seats and other
(12:51):
things.
Could you explain what they are,rather than me go on a bit.
Somebody obviously thoughtsomething was lovely for little
babies, but there was a a bitewith it.
Gail Greatorex (13:00):
Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why
government has to step in andwhy conscientious businesses
actually learn enough abouttheir product to identify where
there might be a hazard.
It's not always obvious to theconsumer.
It's not always obvious to asmall business person who
doesn't take the time to, tolook at what safety is involves.
(13:24):
You mentioned the headstrap, sowhat you're referring to there
is a little project that I'vehad.
I saw something on my LinkedInfeed I think, and that's often
my source of information ofunusual hazards.
You never know when a new hazardis going to emerge.
So, somebody has come up withthe idea of having a little head
(13:44):
strap that children can wearwhen they're sitting in the car
seat, and it loops around theirforehead and attaches to the
back of the child restraint,with the idea that it stops
their head lolling about.
in the car, especially if theyfall asleep.
Now, a lot of people wouldthink, well, that's a good idea.
It seems a bit uncomfortable andmaybe even unsafe to have your
(14:08):
child's head lolling around.
And we're talking kind ofchildren, the ones that are
sitting up in the car seat.
So maybe between two or threeand six, something like that.
And so, it seems like a goodidea, it's a very simple
product, but I read online thatif in the case of your car
having a collision, anythingrestraining the head from moving
(14:32):
forward, the thrust of thecollision will move your body
forward and if your head is notcoming at the same time, then it
can actually break the child'sneck.
It only takes a split second andit can be life affecting or even
fatal.
I'm pleased to say actually thatwe haven't identified any
(14:56):
Australian physical stores thatare selling them.
The main way that they're beingsold is through overseas online
platforms.
And so I actually led a group ofroad safety and related experts
to lobby for a, a ban on them.
And, the ACCC, being theAustralian Competition and
(15:18):
Consumer Commission, which looksafter product safety and the
consumer law, is considering thesituation at the moment.
The first step there was thatthe minister actually released a
warning notice in the last fewweeks to advise consumers to
stop using them and stoppurchasing them.
As we said, you can't reallyanticipate that there's a hazard
(15:39):
with those and, and that's wherethe government needs to step in
to, to help manage these things.
Nigel Rawlins (15:46):
Now, one of your other projects that we did talk
about, I think on the firstepisode, was button batteries.
And there's been a victorythere, hasn't there?
So what's happened with buttonbatteries?
Gail Greatorex (15:55):
Well, I'm pleased to say that the
Australian Competition andConsumer Commission has actually
led the world in introducing amandatory standard for button
batteries.
In fact, there's standards thatapply to both batteries
themselves.
So spare batteries, which nowrequire childproof packaging and
(16:16):
warning labels.
It's the reason why we allstruggle to open our packet of
batteries, which seems veryfrustrating, but it's come about
through necessity.
And, the other standards are forproducts that actually use
button batteries.
So they now have to have, childresistant compartments and
(16:37):
warnings.
Now, just to give you somebackground, the problem with
button batteries is that youngchildren in particular are prone
to swallowing batteries.
In fact, seen a study that saidthe most common thing that
toddlers will swallow will becoins.
Now, we've got fewer and fewercoins around at the moment.
(16:59):
Those button batteries that aresimilar to a coin's shape and
size, if they can get stuck inthe child's esophagus, on the
way between their throat andtheir stomach.
And if it lodges there, then itwill start to react.
It actually activates the chargein the battery and it starts
burning through the muscle thatis in your esophagus.
(17:22):
And of course, that's a terriblething.
It's not something that isobvious to a consumer without
thinking about it, or even ifthey do think about it.
I'm pleased to say that thelevel of awareness is now very
high in Australia.
I don't talk to very manypeople, certainly not parents,
who aren't very aware andvigilant on button batteries,
(17:44):
but it's something that I gotinvolved with around about 10
years ago, although it had beenan issue prior to that.
It's not, wasn't something I,involve myself with, but I've
recognized the extent of thechallenge that's involved with
this particular product problem.
So I helped work on the industryguidelines and I helped work
(18:08):
with associations to work outwhat the standards should
comprise and then the guidelinesabout how to meet the standards.
They still ended up being quitecomplex and businesses are still
struggling to, to meet thestandards.
It's always a problem when yougo first in writing a brand new
standard.
(18:28):
Other jurisdictions around theworld, including the USA, have
brought in some new standards,which is great, new regulations.
So there's starting to be a bitmore effort there, and I think
finally the battery companiesand other independent
researchers are trying to workout how to resolve the problem
altogether.
So, it requires an all in effortof all sectors to try to work
(18:52):
out how best to manage this,but, I've been frustrated that
despite the fact that theAustralian regulation has been
in place for more than 12 monthsnow, there's still about two
recalls a month or maybe evenone a week these days.
So either the businesses haven'tgot the message or the standards
(19:13):
are too tricky to meet fully,I'm not sure which, but I did
post a blog recently on mywebsite to say one of the
measures that I think that couldbe being taken by the government
is for them to work for the ACCCto work with the customs people
to require a Declaration ofCompliance where any importer
(19:37):
brings in a product that uses abutton battery in it.
So I'm hoping that the ACCC is,is engaging with the border
force agency to bring thatabout.
Cause you know, there's so manydifferent products increasingly
electronic these days.
One of the things that of theresponsible businesses have done
(19:57):
is telling their manufacturersto not include a button battery.
And the other thing is to havesomething that's rechargeable
where there's inaccessiblebatteries and you just use a USB
to recharge it.
So there's ways and means andhopefully we'll get there, but
not there yet.
Nigel Rawlins (20:15):
Okay.
Anybody listening can tell thatyou're an expert in the product
safety field.
How do you keep up to dateyourself?
What do you do to keep your mindsharp and focused on these
issues?
Gail Greatorex (20:26):
Well.
I mentioned that I get a bit ofintel from LinkedIn through my
contacts and other things thatcome through on that platform.
I get an email from Google ifanything comes up with button
battery in it or magnet andswallow, if you swallow more
than one powerful magnet,that'll cause problems in your
digestive system as well.
(20:47):
So, probably one email a day atleast on that front.
Oh, and toppling furniture.
That's another, been another oneof my main projects, with, with
the risk of particular types offurniture being climbed on by
children and then toppling, andhaving potential crushing
injuries.
One of the other main ways Istay in touch is with these
(21:11):
associations and their productsafety committees.
I work with the National RetailAssociation and with the Infant
and Nursery Product Alliance.
They're two of the most activein the area that I work in and
I'm so impressed with the workthat gets done.
People take on differentprojects and quite often, a
(21:32):
couple of times I've actuallyraised an issue that I've seen
on my socials, and they'll takethem on and say, okay, let's
form a working group to go andsort out how best to manage this
one.
Nigel Rawlins (21:43):
Now, I guess the thing I'm thinking about here is
obviously we've got some majorcompanies across Australia and
in the other advanced industrialcountries as well.
Do they have people working inproduct safety within these
companies?
I think you mentioned some ofthe big online companies do.
What are some of the positionsthey have?
And, how do they go abouttraining themselves up to be
(22:05):
expert like you?
Gail Greatorex (22:06):
I think that it's a lot of learning on the
job.
I think they have created someof their own in house learning.
But there is no formal trainingtraining program for product
safety, which is a frustrationof mine.
The people who work as productsafety practitioners and
compliance practitioners, a lotof them are within the big
retail firms.
(22:28):
You know, Australia doesn't haveterribly many manufacturers
these days, but those that we dohave and those elsewhere, they
really get their heads aroundthe issue of how to assess a
product for where the hazardsmight lie.
And then whether there's astandard that tells you how to
address those hazards, or ifthere's not a standard, then
(22:51):
they have their ownunderstanding of the sort of
measures that you can put inplace to, to counteract that
hazard.
Ideally you'll eliminate it, butthere's a process you go
through.
If you can't eliminate thehazard then you might put a
guard in, or put some other kindof stopgap that stops the actual
(23:12):
hazard from being as likely tooccur.
The number of products that areon the market is always growing.
The number of regulations thatare in place around the world
seems to grow exponentially aswell.
The job that these practitionershave is just extraordinary
(23:33):
because they're not just lookingat the product itself.
They then have to manage theirrelationship with their own
company, where the buyers arewanting to either have some
attractive little element on aproduct, which may or may not be
safe.
And they want to get the productfor the cheapest price, which
might mean that there's a riskof cheaper materials or cheaper
(23:56):
production practices.
So they have to negotiate thatin house, and they then have to
possibly negotiate it with thesuppliers themselves.
So a bit of supply chainmanagement.
We've got, not just themanufacturer, but you've got
your distributor or yourwholesaler.
(24:16):
And at the other end, at thevery start of the manufacturing
process, you've got your rawmaterial suppliers.
So there has to be checks andbalances for all of those to
make sure that it's working.
And then there's testingcompanies and third party
inspectors.
All of this has to be factoredin by these practitioners.
(24:37):
So I really don't envy themtheir job.
And in Australia we've gotgenerally got some good
harmonization nationwide, butelectrical products is regulated
by each different state andthey're all different, and that
gives everybody nightmares.
Thankfully, there's some actionat government level to try to
(24:58):
fix that at the moment.
But I do worry that there's notraining, there's no recognized
qualifications, and withoutthat, it's less attractive as a
career option, so this is whereI'd like to see a bit more
support for those practitionersin the game.
Nigel Rawlins (25:15):
Now, that's an interesting point because you
are an expert, from havingworked for the ACCC in Australia
and through the work you've doneover the number of years, you've
become more expert in this.
Yet, if there's not a lot ofsupport for product safety
people within the organisations,who's going to replace you when
you've said, I've had enough?
(25:36):
Who's going to be the experts inAustralia if they're not coming
through.
Gail Greatorex (25:39):
Well, that's right.
I'm pleased to say there havebeen a couple of younger people
going out into the consultingbusiness lately, which is very
heartening.
Most of the people who areinvolved and active and
proactive are getting older.
So, it's a bit of a concern.
Nigel Rawlins (25:57):
Okay, let's Just shift a little bit.
You're self employed.
You're running your ownbusiness.
How do you go about getting newbusiness or attracting these
people who need your help?
And what are some of the thingsyou do?
You mentioned training andconsulting.
What are some of the otherthings you also do?
But how do you get people tofind you?
gail_1_08-28-2024_144737 (26:18):
Oh, look, I think that thanks to
your advice back in the earlydays of me starting off, I've
set up a website with quite afew standard pages that are
available, but, I also writeblog posts that keep people
informed on new issues, andsometimes they argue for one
particular course of action, oralert people to a new safety
(26:42):
problem.
And, by maintaining the websiteit seems to keep me front and
centre on search engines.
Whereas I mentioned that there'sa few other consultants around,
but they don't have the samelevel of online presence as far
as I know to manage theirsearchability.
So that's, that's one of themain things I think quite often,
(27:03):
where I get a inquiry out of theblue, it'll be somebody who's
just found me by doing a simplesearch.
I guess that's the main way somepeople can sometimes find me
through LinkedIn too, I guess.
And, and as well through mynetworking, by doing some of the
advocacy, which a lot of whichis unpaid, I'm still putting
(27:25):
myself front of mind for peoplewho then understand that I can
potentially help them out withdifferent aspects of their
product safety needs.
Nigel Rawlins (27:34):
I guess you could also say you're in a very
specialist niche too.
There's not many competitors inyour field, and that helps.
Plus, I should be honest, I'veworked with you for many, many
years.
I'm a backend marketing servicesperson.
So you're one of the websites,or I think you've got two
websites.
I look after, you have gotseveral hundred pages on your
website.
(27:54):
I haven't done that work.
You've done all that work.
You've been writing thearticles, and they are
specialist articles, and I getto see, Gail's statistics, and
she does pretty well.
But you've also put a lot ofeffort into, and I haven't done
this myself, but you havedownloadable papers.
And, one in particular is yourmanager's checklist.
So tell us something about that.
Gail Greatorex (28:15):
That's one of the products that I've got on my
website.
It's a two A4 sheet sizedchecklist, which is a summary of
the two ISO standards on how tomake products that are safe and
how to manage them after they'veleft the factory, which includes
the recall side of it.
(28:37):
The two standards are globalstandards and the only two real
documents of their kind.
And I just thought in developingthe checklist, it was just
simply a lot of considerationsfor managing product safety.
And I've called it a manager'schecklist because I was hoping
to target the managers and themiddle managers, or even the
(28:59):
executives in a big business.
And I've published that, oh, itmust be eight years ago now, I
suppose.
And it's the most downloadedthing that I have.
And, the people who aredownloading it are from all
around the world.
And I haven't done much topromote it actually, and that's
(29:20):
something that you and I havebeen going to talk about is how
we might better raise awarenessof that checklist that's clearly
a unique product and of greathelp to anybody who's trying to
get their heads around how to doproduct safety.
We've been talking about doingsome little video or slideshows,
that sort of thing, just tocomplement the checklist, show
(29:44):
that it's not just a staticdocument, but something that's a
little bit more alive.
Nigel Rawlins (29:49):
Well, the reason I wanted to bring that up is
because this is an issue for anyprofessional working for
themselves is to attract peopleto their websites.
And one way of doing it is tohave some downloadable documents
or something that's helpful totheir particular client group
that they'd like to work with.
And obviously they're supposedto capture emails and put them
(30:11):
onto their email list and thatsort of stuff, which is quite
helpful.
And you've done that, and I'veseen the stats, so I know how
successful that is for you.
And I have seen who downloadsit, and, these are major
manufacturing companies acrossthe world.
Not just China, Sweden, I'venoticed Germany and, fairly big
companies.
So they obviously see somethingin there.
(30:32):
So that's the message to anyonewho's running their own
business.
Okay, so can you tell ussomething about how you actually
go about your work?
And then I want to talk aboutsome of the other projects
you've taken on, because, one ofthe issues is that life's not
all about business when you're abit older.
How do you go about tackling thejobs you've got to do?
(30:52):
So, somebody wants you to do ajob, so you take that on.
How do you sort of balanceeverything?
Gail Greatorex (30:58):
I'm not sure I've got a good answer on that,
Nigel.
I'm an infinitely distractibleperson.
And, the, good thing is that Ienjoy what I'm doing.
So, if there's a task that's infront of me that I know needs
doing, then I'll just sit downand do it basically.
And.
It's a case of just keeping aneye on what else is in the
(31:20):
background, needs doing.
Not many of my projects involvemore than a day or a week's
work.
They're all pretty short.
And so, it's easy to strike abalance with different things
that come in.
Nigel Rawlins (31:32):
In terms of projects, do you take all
projects on, or are you a bitselective with the projects
gail_1_08-28-2024_144737 (31:38):
Well, in terms of requests that come
in from businesses, I quiteoften we'll refer those to one
of my associates, either becauseI don't feel as though I have
quite the necessary expertise,or, I just want to do something
else.
A lot of the other project work,you might call it, might be
(31:59):
advocating for certain policychanges, including regulatory
policy.
So, for example, the topplingfurniture issue has been one
that I voluntarily took on andworked with the National Retail
Association.
And more recently, the ACCC hasintroduced a mandatory standard,
(32:20):
but there were some practicalconsiderations that needed
fixing.
And I then organized a workinggroup meeting and then I put
together a submission in orderto hopefully get some better
guidance happening on how tocomply.
Nigel Rawlins (32:37):
And the secret there is you know what you're
doing, and this doesn't soundlike it's too complicated to do.
Obviously, because you do workfor yourself and you have some
choices, what are some of theother things you've taken on,
not so much to do with yourbusiness, that you find
interesting to do?
Gail Greatorex (32:53):
I realized I had a real pleasure in writing, and
I do a bit of business writingwith my blogs and my advocacy,
but I tried my hand at creativewriting a little while ago and
ended up self publishing anovel.
At the time it was the only bitof creative writing I had done,
and I didn't expect to write anovel.
(33:15):
And I deliberately chose not todo any study on how to write,
because I simply didn't want toput any pressure on myself about
while I was doing it, am I doingthis the correct way?
So it started off as actually astress release project, and it
(33:36):
was straight from head tokeyboard and I thoroughly
enjoyed it.
The book that I wrote is atravel narrative, a little
fictionalized travel story, witha bit of romance thrown in and
it's an engaging read withoutbeing a challenging one.
I decided not to approach apublisher, but I've had a
(33:58):
limited amount of success inactually selling the book
through Amazon and other means.
The novel is called CherryBlossom Footsteps, and I use the
pseudonym, Nom de Plume, if youwill of Gail Holloway, just to
keep my writing separate fromprofessional life.
So this was just a hobby really,I'm only counting it as a hobby,
(34:20):
and it actually cost me quite abit to publish it, but that's
the price I was happy to pay.
I've said my next book would besomething more meaty, and now,
having written about 25, 000words, I realized I can't just
wing it like I did with thefirst one.
And, I sat down to do thewriting, I thought, Oh, I don't
(34:42):
know where this is going, whatthe plot line is.
So I found a book about how toplan a novel.
It's actually a local publishedauthor called Graeme Simsion,
who wrote The Rosie Project, andhe's actually a screenwriter.
And so he's got a particularapproach to planning, and so I'm
(35:06):
trying to follow everything thathe's got in his book, but he's
basically said the planning hasto take place completely before
the novel gets going, and if youdon't do that then you'll have a
much poorer result.
So, much as I like to just sitdown and, and type and write,
uh, I'm trying to work out how Ican actually get enjoyment out
(35:30):
of the planning process.
And it does take a bit of freeheadspace in which to do that.
And I've just taken two weeksoff and gone interstate to try
and allow that space to becreated and then continue where
I've picked up and get it going.
Nigel Rawlins (35:50):
That's an interesting way of looking at
things, is that you have toallow yourself headspace to do
this sort of stuff, and that'sone of the biggest things about
being an older self employedperson, I'm going on about this
a little bit, is that, you know,there's other things we want to
do apart from just running abusiness, you know, but there
are some projects we want to do.
(36:11):
All right, do you think byhaving done some fiction writing
that it changes how you do yournon fiction writing, say your
blog articles.
gail_1_08-28-2024_144737 (36:20):
I'd say so.
Yes, I've got a little bit morethought about how I set up an
opinion piece, especially if I'mdoing some advocacy, I, I need
to factor in how to engagepeople early on with, with the
topic.
And then run my argument.
Yeah, so it's, it's about beinga little bit creative in, in how
you're putting things together.
(36:40):
I know that I used to, havingworked with government for so
long, I used to have arelatively bureaucratic style.
And I think I've moved away fromthat, so it's, I can give some
credit to my creative writing onthat front.
Nigel Rawlins (36:52):
That's a positive, isn't it?
Now, you've also had a majorproject that I have been
involved in, in the back endsort of thing, on Climate Wise.
So tell us, how did that comeabout?
Gail Greatorex (37:03):
Okay, so back in the beginning of 2020, Australia
was experiencing the severebushfires that made news all
around the world.
We had Sydney shrouded in smoke,and we had those massive
bushfires down in easternVictoria, where they had to
evacuate a town by gettingpeople onto naval ships.
(37:27):
And it went for weeks, and thewhole country was very unsettled
by all of that.
And my good friend, HelenMillicer, a climate advocate and
sustainability expert, called afew people around to her house
of just a few friends and said,what could we as a group of
random professionals do tocontribute to managing climate
(37:50):
change?
So that was the first time I'dreally had any involvement in
doing anything apart fromsorting my recycling.
And, after doing a little bit ofwork on lobbying local council
to some good effect, we thought,well, what else can we do?
And, because I work withassociations in product safety
(38:11):
and know them to be drivers ofgood action.
I thought, well, let's see ifany climate programs have been
targeting associations.
And it turned out that wecouldn't find any, certainly not
in Australia and hardly anyelsewhere.
And so we recognized thatassociations have got enormous
(38:32):
influence with their members,but also up the line to
government as well.
And some of them lobbygovernment and they also work
with their fellow associationsin their own general sector.
So we set about developing someways in which we could help
associations become moreproactive because the other
(38:54):
advantage of associations isthat they are, experts in their
own little sector or field.
Nobody knows furnituremanufacturing like the Furniture
Manufacturing Association andnobody knows electrical products
like the Electrical ProductsAssociation.
So they have got their ownexpertise and what they can do
is sit down and look at, well,where are the risks being
(39:17):
imposed by climate change andwhat are the opportunities?
So opportunities might beshifting to a cheaper energy
source that's renewable.
Opportunities might be shiftingtheir finances to companies that
make sustainability a priority.
Some of the risks actuallyevolved and became apparent
during COVID, which happenedfrom that same time.
(39:40):
Supply chain disruption.
What happens if a major storm orother kind of disruption affects
the supply of your products orthe spare parts for your
products.
And that means that your wholebusiness has to go on hold.
So doing some planning toidentify what the risks are and
(40:00):
how you can manage those seemedlike something that associations
could do together with theirmembers and, you know, we know
that a lot of associations arerun on a shoestring, but we took
that into account by saying, putthe message out to your members
and chances are you'll probablyfind that there's a handful of
(40:22):
members who are already thinkingabout these issues, may be
willing to share thatinformation with their fellow
members, may be willing to leada working group on how to
usefully manage all of thosethings within your sector and
how to identify what the risksand opportunities are.
So it's an idea that has, wethink, has got great potential
(40:48):
and I'm pleased to say thatwe've got a really good website
now that is essentially a selfhelp website.
So any association or any memberof an association can go on and
find resources on that website.
It's Climate Wise Associationsand the, URL is climatewise.
(41:08):
org.
au.
We deliberately made it at nocost at all to any participant
to download and use any of thematerials that we've provided.
We've got all sorts ofguidelines, checklists, a self
rating benchmarking tool.
Lots and lots of information toget you started and in fact
(41:28):
we've organized it for some interms of if you're just starting
out, here are these five thingsthat you can do.
So it's very much available.
We were hoping to hand this overto an NGO or some other
organization to work with, witha bit more engagement and
promotion.
Because Helen and I have bothbeen doing this as a side
(41:49):
project, with no funding and westill hopeful that we might get
some funding.
So if anybody listening to thispodcast thinks, Oh, there's a
good idea.
It wouldn't take a lot offunding to put it together.
And it can build from there, andwe've got a range of business
models where there is a fee forservice involved.
(42:10):
And we would Be happy to have aconversation with anybody if
they're interested.
Nigel Rawlins (42:15):
So what I'm hearing is the projects you're
involved in and your website isall trying to be helpful and
trying to inform and helppeople.
And, that's a wonderful thing.
So you've been actually giving alot of your energy and a lot of
your time, plus working, whichis good.
So, is there any advice youwould give to somebody who is
(42:37):
working and considering whetherthey want to become self
employed or become anindependent professional.
Gail Greatorex (42:43):
Well, I guess if you can find something that you
enjoy doing and or arepassionate about, it makes all
the difference.
I do it because I like thechallenge and I know that I'm
doing good work for the benefitof the broader community.
And it's an opportunity to workwith some really good people who
(43:05):
I enjoy their company.
I enjoy getting together to tryand work through some issues.
I'm not very good at sittingdown doing nothing.
So, I do it because I enjoydoing it.
And, you know, that makes allthe difference in terms of your
motivation to get the work doneand to achieve something
meaningful.
nigel-rawlins_1_08-28-202 (43:25):
Yeah, but I think the other thing
you've been commenting on is youwent off to Brisbane for a
couple of weeks so you couldfocus on your writing.
So you're, you've got a balancein there.
So you're, you're choosing tonot work all the time.
So that's an important thing.
I mean, I think when you'reolder and I'll just be clear
here when I'm talking aboutolder, I'm older than you, so
(43:48):
I'm not saying you're old oranything like that, is that it's
not all about work.
It's, it's about having a lifebecause you've spent a lifetime
getting the expertise.
It's just being focused withthat expertise that you've got.
Gail Greatorex (44:01):
I've spent relatively a lifetime working
full time for an employer.
And it's nice not to have to dothat.
And you know, the, it's not onlythe flexibility, but the
autonomy, you can make your owndecisions.
You're not answerable to peopleif you don't want to be and
that's important.
That's important to me.
And I certainly, it's a veryflexible arrangement that I have
(44:24):
in terms of how much time Ispend working and, uh, which
days I work and that sort ofthing.
Nigel Rawlins (44:30):
I totally agree with that because, I don't think
I can actually start a morningbefore 10 o'clock.
Gail Greatorex (44:35):
No, but it's not, you don't, you don't get up
at like 9.
30 and say, okay, I can start at10.
You're up early, and you'redoing exercise and you're
probably, gathering some eggsfrom your garden or something.
No, the chickens Ah, ah,
Nigel Rawlins (44:52):
No, those little rotters, they were controlling
me.
So anyone who's got chickenswill know what I mean.
They've got a tiny little brainbut they totally control you.
Now I do get up fairly early andI go for walks and I do my
exercise and then I have mycoffee, waste a bit of time on
Twitter and then I start andthen I have a nice lunch.
(45:14):
But that's the whole idea ofworking.
I don't even know what we callourselves anymore.
Wise Elders, as Meredith Fullerkeeps calling us.
But at the same time, we'restill wanting to do some work
that we love to do.
All right.
So, how would you like people tofind you?
Gail Greatorex (45:30):
Well, product safety solutions.
Uh.com au is the website for myproduct safety business.
Also see my face pop up on theClimate Wise Associations
website.
There is a website for GailHolloway author.
But maybe it's easiest just viaLinkedIn.
I do some regular posts thereand it's an easy way to engage
(45:53):
with people.
Nigel Rawlins (45:54):
I will put all of those in the show notes, so
these will be able to be found.
So thank you Gail for beingguest 61, 60 episodes later.
It was fabulous talking to youagain.
gail_1_08-28-2024_14473 (46:07):
Thanks, Nigel.
I enjoyed it
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