Breaking the Invisibility Barrier: Danielle Joworski’s Tips for Women in Business

Episode Transcript
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Nigel Rawlins (00:00):
I'm your host, Nigel Rawlins today, I'm
speaking with Danielle Joworski,a dynamic entrepreneur and
visibility expert.
She's passionate about helpingwomen conquer their visibility
fears and boost theirconfidence.
With her experiencetransitioning from corporate
career to working with femaleentrepreneurs, Danielle has
overcome the challenges ofage-ism sexism and the digital

(00:23):
visibility gap head-on.
Danielle says visibility inbusiness means standing out and
being seen and heard, which manywomen are uncomfortable doing.
Being seen and heard increasesyour chance of attracting
opportunities, clients andgrowth, allowing even the most
skilled entrepreneurs to benoticed and appreciated.
Whether you're an establishedentrepreneur or starting,

(00:45):
Danielle's advice will guide youtowards greater visibility and
success.
Welcome Danielle to theWisepreneurs podcast.
Could you tell us somethingabout yourself and where you're
from?

Danielle Joworski (00:56):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, Nigel, forhaving me here.
I am joining you from just westof Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and
I am really passionate abouthelping to make the visibility
journey much easier for femaleentrepreneurs so that they can
conquer their visibility fears,boost their confidence, and then

(01:16):
really make themselves morevisible so that they can grow
their business and create theimpact that they imagine through
the work that they do.

Yeah, that is so important.
Visibility.
And it's coming through loud andclear in every one of my guests.
And I guess that's whatmarketing's about too.
What makes women a little bitreluctant to be visible?

I work with, like myself I'm over 40 and most
of my clients that I work withand who my audience are, they're
over 40 years old.
So we have really almost steppedinto this visability game,
especially with social media andthis online digital world just
really booming in the lastcouple of years.
We've stepped into it, with adifferent kind of history where

(01:57):
we did not grow up with cellphones in our pockets or our
purses.
We had the rotary phone.
Our internet was dial upinternet and we could very
easily hide and do our workbehind a laptop.
We didn't necessarily have toput ourselves out there in front
of a camera, In order to growbusinesses.

(02:18):
So a lot of the times when I'mworking with clients, especially
female entrepreneurs over 40,there's this hesitation to put
yourself out there specificallywhen there's a camera involved,
because it just wasn't the rolethat we were, that we typically
had in either in corporate or asentrepreneurs.
So the challenge of beingvisibility really comes down to,
from my perspective it'sourself.

(02:40):
It's the image that we have ofourself, the perception that we
have of ourselves, and steppingout and allowing that spotlight
to be shone on ourselves.
It comes down to us reallyunderstanding who we are,
finding that inner why and drivethat's going to propel us
through the visibility fears tobe able to get in front of our
ideal audiences and really getto do the work that we know that

(03:03):
we're here to do.

There's a criticism of some women who put
themselves out there thatthey're pushy.
Is that something that they'reprobably trying to ignore?

I think a lot of times you want to have this
conversation.
So it becomes, it's not thepushy that they're trying to
ignore or they're trying toavoid.
It's almost the opposite wherethey're afraid to sell.
They're afraid of what theexternal perception is going to
be from others.
They're afraid of being judged.
They're afraid of beingcanceled, especially in the
online world right now.

(03:32):
So pushy, it's no, it's more theexternal, so people worrying
about, who is she to say whatshe's saying?
How is she the expert?
And really getting stuck inthis, instead of us knowing who
we are and that we're here to doit, we are the expert in our
stories and what it is that wewant to do at our business,

(03:53):
really focusing and putting thatmirror on the outside world and
allowing the thoughts andperceptions of others to really
control and impact how we'reshowing up.

Now that, that is interesting because it is an
issue of confidence.
And as the podcast is aimedtowards, helping professional
women move into business and runtheir businesses and things like
that.
But they are experts.
They are quite knowledgeable andable to do things.
And this is what, upsets me abit when I hear this is that

(04:23):
they lack that confidence.
And I think you've mentioned it,especially for this particular
age group probably non tech.
The other thing too is oncethey're over 50, they start to
think maybe they're over thehill.
And we've had some people on thepodcast, gerontologist and stuff
like that about ageism and that,that's a self imposed belief in

(04:43):
many ways.
So do you think also, ageism andsexism comes into this as well?

I'm going to speak from personal experience
and I'm going to say yes, aroundthe ageism because I took my
first step intoentrepreneurialism at 40 after
growing a successful corporatecareer.
And it became, when I made thatstep, it became, Oh I, geez, I
feel as if I'm starting so muchfurther behind everybody else.
The entrepreneurs that I wasinvolved with and really

(05:13):
connected to at the time, theywere younger than I was.
So I felt really late to thegame.
And then the internet made itseem so easy nine years ago to
start a business.
And then I struggled trying tofigure out how to put all the
parts together to create thisbusiness that would run the way
that the perception, again, theinternet told us that it would

(05:33):
be able to run at that point intime.

Look, I think that's right.
The benefit, of 10 years ago isyou had the internet.
25 years ago, when I decided Iwant to start a business, we
didn't.
We had fax machines

Yeah.
Yeah.

and telephones, mobiles did come in.
So let's just go back a bit tohow you got to that point.
Now you studied microbiology.
You went out to work.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour career transitions and how
you then came about going intobusiness and then what happened.

Started that very traditional, logical career
path, went to university, mydegree is in microbiology, and I
went straight into corporate,getting a job in a microbiology
lab.
I really focused on systems, Iwas in the food industry, I then
had my first child.
Transitioned into thepharmaceutical industry and

(06:24):
really took that verytraditional route where I
climbed the corporate ladder,which is what I wanted.
Graduating university, that'swhat I wanted.
I wanted to be a manager before40.
I wanted to earn a certainsalary by the time I was 40.
And at 38, I achieved the goalsthat I had set back in those
university days.

(06:46):
Once I achieved it, it became, Ialmost see it as, it's that be
careful what you wish for.
Because when I achieved it, Irealized, I looked around and
said, this is, no, it's not thepath for me.
I feel like I lost myself onthat path.
So I made the decision literallyon my 40th birthday to step out

(07:06):
of corporate and really try andfind to discover and explore who
I was.
I lost myself at that point intime.
I didn't know what else I coulddo.
I didn't know what my strengthswere.
I, or at least I felt I didn'tknow what they were without that
corporate title and umbrellabehind me.
So I stepped out of thecorporate world at 40, started

(07:27):
my own business, knowingabsolutely nothing and believing
what the internet told me, thatit was super easy to pick up a
laptop and start a business.
At the end of the day, I failed.
I failed to put myself outthere.
I failed to be visible.
I failed to be seen or heard,which as an entrepreneur, you
need to be seen heard in orderto be found and hired.

(07:49):
And so after about two and ahalf years, I said to my
husband, I said, something's notworking.
This is becoming way too hardand I wasn't seeing the success
that I had wanted, so I returnedto corporate with a lot of
guilt, a lot of shame, and not awhole lot of confidence left in
myself.
But it was that failure in thereturn to corporate that

(08:12):
actually was the catalyst towhere I am today.
Because I got back in thisenvironment and I saw different
challenges that women incorporate were having.
And I thought I don't have thosechallenges anymore.
Why?
Oh, because I worked with a lotof different women entrepreneurs
who are service providers.
And I had these great supportsystems now that I never had

(08:32):
before.
I had this idea let's connectthese career and business
challenges that exist in mycommunity and I figured, around
the world to the solutionproviders and entrepreneurs in
my community.
So I got the courage and Ilearned how to create and then I
pitched and ended up producingand hosting a TV show locally

(08:54):
for three seasons where I had toobviously get over my visibility
fears.
Any fear I had of the camera Ihad to get over because I was
looking into one a couple oftimes a month, and that just
created, once I got over thatvisibility fear, that is my
biggest sense of fulfillment, isbeing able to have that

(09:16):
transformation.
And then that's what I feelcalled to do right now, and the
passion I have is to make thatvisibility journey easier for
other female entrepreneurs.
Because I do not want them toface the same fate.
I don't want them to think thatit's so challenging to be
visible that they end up failingin their business or not
succeeding or not feeling as ifthey're worthy of the success

(09:39):
that they dream of.
So that's that corporate in andout.
It's very illogical.
It's very different, but I, atthe point now, after lots of
years of reflection of reallybeing so grateful.
Grateful of that journey oftaking the risks on myself, of
really pushing myself outside ofthe comfort zone and doing

(09:59):
things differently at the end ofthe day.

I think that's an amazing story.
So I want to go back a littlebit where you said you felt that
you failed in your business andthen you went back into
corporate, but you found yourlife in the corporate life very
different because of thatexperience.
And the danger, I think, when weuse the word failure today it's,
it's something terrible.
The other interesting thing, itwas that age group, you said you

(10:24):
were about 38 when you decided,no, that's not what you want to
continue to do.
And you want to get out andexplore the world.
Now, I think that's what happensat about that age and probably
younger nowadays, you can headin the corporate world, be in a
management position and a verywell paid position.
But, if the energy is not there,you've got to get out.

(10:45):
So that's really quiteinteresting because I think that
two and a half years, probably,Created a whole lot of thinking
and knowledge and experiencethat you then used.
So let's think about that.
So how did you then decide youcould then leave corporate again
and do this?

So when I returned to corporate after that
first business, I was on acontract.
It's interesting because therewas lots of opportunities for me
to be be a full time permanentposition and get into those
roles.
And I always turned them down.
I always said no.
In the back of my mind, it wasalways, I didn't want to
handcuff myself into a permanentposition because then it would

(11:27):
be too easy to stay.
And I knew that I didn't want tostay in that world for too long.
I just didn't know what to do.
I needed to go and just reset.
I needed to go and generate someincome again for myself.
And then that's when this ideafor the show came.
And for me, it just became atthe end of my contract, I made

(11:50):
that choice to not extend it.
And I stepped out into theentrepreneurial world a second
time.
But I vowed to myself that Iwould do things differently.
I made a commitment to myselfthat I would identify all the
things that maybe I didn't do sogreat or I didn't do right the
first time.

(12:10):
And then do things differentlyso that I could avoid the same
mistakes and I would not havethe same outcome.

That's actually very brave when you think about
it.

Thank you.

The first time you were very brave to go out
and realise what you didn'tknow, go back into corporate,
earn some income again, and thencome out and realize again, I
wouldn't call that a fail, thatfirst one a failure.
I think it was a great learningexperience, probably a costly
one because, and I guess that'swhat happened with me too when I
quit my teaching over probablynearly 26, 27 years ago to go

(12:45):
out into business with no ideawhat I was doing or what I was
going to do, which was evencrazier.
What things do you think you hadto learn when you came out?
For example, anyone coming outof corporate who wants to start
their own business.
What do they need to learn, doyou think?

Some of the strategies of my biggest
learnings were one, get acommunity around my, get a
community around myself whereit's people who have been where
I want to go, who can help me.
And then point number two is askfor help.
I had to incorporate, coming outof corporate the first time,
asking for help.
That was not something I did.

(13:21):
In that corporate world, askingfor help was a sign of weakness.
As a leader, it became, Ooh, shedoesn't know everything.
As an entrepreneur, we neverknow anything.
It was becoming comfortable, notknowing everything, and then
being vulnerable to ask othersfor help.
And the third thing was learninghow to give myself a lot of
grace.

(13:41):
And understanding that, yep,things didn't work out the first
time, we're going to do thingsdifferently, and then to give
myself a lot of grace as Icontinue to learn.
There was quite a few years inbetween business number one and
business number two, andtechnology had changed.
between that.
This is number one, but wereally didn't talk on zoom or

(14:02):
even have platforms like whatwe're using today.
By the time business number twocame along, technology came a
lot of a long way.
So there was a lot of differentchallenges that I had to face
that I had to ask for help.
So it was just, getting helpright away.
Literally I, my last day incorporate that second time was
on a Friday.
On the Monday, I was alreadyenrolled in an entrepreneurial

(14:25):
program at a local universityfor women entrepreneurs.
Because again, I wanted to getsurrounded, surrounding myself
with the people who could helpme, surrounding myself with
other entrepreneurs that I couldlearn from, and I could also
help as well.
Creating that community, askingfor help, seeing it as a
strength, not as a weakness thistime and then giving myself the

(14:47):
grace for when things didn't goso great.
If I wasn't growing my businessas fast as, I, you imagine and
you really want, it's okay.
And reflecting on what are thelearnings?
What can I do differently?
Do I need to get more clarity onmy goal?
If I needed to change paths andpivot, absolutely giving myself
grace for that.

(15:07):
But having the courage toreally, at the end of the day,
grow my business the way itfeels really good to me and
become more visible and do it inways that feel really good to me
too.

Okay, let's just have a little talk about that.
You found an entrepreneurialcourse that was available at the
time.
What was the cohort like?
And was the learning that yougot there practical?
And have you kept in contactwith some of those people as
your community?

Lots of yeses to those questions.
So yes, absolutely have gotten,it's interesting because at the
time you're coming together withall of these different strangers
and you never know who you'regoing to connect with.
And people from my cohort, theinstructors were fantastic.
They were all femaleentrepreneurs.
Again, my cohort were femaleentrepreneurs and we were all

(15:53):
from different businesses, whichI thought was really interesting
because it means that we wereserving a lot of different
people.
You're getting a lot ofdifferent perspectives when we
were having group conversations.
We were also from a lot ofdifferent stages of business.
I was restarting from almostground zero and others were a
few years into their business.
Others were like me, juststarting out and having this

(16:14):
idea.
And it was just interestingbeing able to connect with
people at different stages anddoing different things to learn
and have different perspectivesand then just be able to
connect.
So that's been a number ofyears.
I've stayed connected with quitea few of them.
Some of them have actuallybecome clients as well.
So it's for, so for me, thatlearning, and taking the

(16:35):
initiative to, to sign up forthat program and become a part
of that cohort, that wassomething that was instrumental
for me to be where I am today.

Actually, that's really quite an interesting
thought.
That, women, I guess if they'regoing to do this, should have a
look out for those courses.
Now, it was specifically aimedat women entrepreneurs, wasn't
it?
How did that feel?
If there were men in there,would it have changed it, do you
think?

I think it just would have changed the the
vibe of the group, but I thinkthe content still would have
been the same.
The conversations might havebeen a little bit different but
for me, just that was what isavailable.
That's what called to me.
I felt very comfortable being inthe group with other women
entrepreneurs.
I've done programs where men arepart of the cohorts as well, and
I've enjoyed those as well.

(17:18):
It's just when I came out andwanted to start my business
again, I knew I wanted to focuson women entrepreneurs.
And so when this opportunitycame up to be a part of this
cohort, it just seemed like areally natural alignment.

That's why I like working with women.
I find them so smart savvy, andI'm a support role.
In my marketing servicesbusiness, I look after the
website stuff and can adviseabout writing and whether it's
appropriate and do all the SEOand that I'm just so amazed at
their ability, but I thinkyou're dead right about the

(17:51):
visibility thing.
And I think that's one thingthat we have to deal with.
All right.
What was I going to say in thatway?
So what do you think?
In terms of somebody coming outlet me rephrase that a bit.
I'm just going to say I thinkthe big issue that I'm finding
through the podcast, when I talkto a lot of very capable,
intelligent women, and some ofthem just amaze me at the amount

(18:14):
of energy and the things thatthey put out.
For example, one Kate Toon runsfour podcasts, written about six
books runs an SEO agency.
She's only about 50 and she'sgot a a teenage son now, and
she's just bought a bookshop.

Good for her.

And I'm thinking she's a dynamo.
So she's got it and she helpswomen just like yourself.
You've got out there now andyou're getting the message out.
What we spoke a little bit aboutmaybe the reluctance for women
to come out like that.
So what do you think gets in theway of women becoming visible.

(18:53):
I know we've got the technologythere to do it there.
So what's the gap, do you think,that they need to jump over or
the bridge to get to the stage?
For example, like you who comeacross visibly, even though
audience can't see Quite apowerful presence.

Thank you.
So, I'm going to say based on myown personal experience, it
becomes myself and not havingthis image of myself as that
expert.
When I was in business the firsttime it became who's going to,
who's going to want to hear whatI have to say?
And who's going to what ifsomeone doesn't agree with me?

(19:28):
I remember very vivid, vividly,I would spend hours recording
videos only to delete them offof my phone, or I would actually
end up posting them on socialmedia and doing, you can't see
my hands right now, but I'mcrossing my fingers on both
hands.
So I would post and I reallyhoped that nobody saw it.

(19:49):
Because for me, it was this, Ididn't feel I looked like
someone who was an expert.
I didn't feel like that Isounded like an expert.
And then there is this idea ofwho's, who even wants to hear
what I have to say?
Do I actually have a solutionthat somebody wants to hear?
So it was this idea aroundappearance.

(20:10):
And my appearance holding myback.
Then there's the fear ofblunders and things not going so
great.
So when I'm speaking, if Istutter, and I do when I get
really nervous, I stutter.
And, or I use those ums, whichwhen you do a lot of public
speaking courses, they reallygive you a lot of trouble for
using those filler words.
But there's the blunders thathappen, whether it be technology

(20:32):
or how we're speaking orfreezing, because sometimes my
brain moves faster than my mouthor vice versa.
And there's the confidence piecewhere a lot of times I felt I
can't step out or I can't do Xbecause I'm not confident yet.
Over time, I've learned thatconfidence is an outcome of
taking courageous actionsbecause of a deep rooted burning

(20:56):
desire and belief in either whoyou are, what it is that you
want to do, the impact that youcan create, or even someone
else's belief in you.
So really understanding thatcourage it's an outcome, and
understanding that confidence isan outcome.
And when I needed to findconfidence, when I felt like I

(21:17):
didn't have it, looking at allof the experience that I've had,
leveraging that, because that'sthe proof that I've done hard
things.
That's the proof that I'veovercome visibility challenges.
That's the proof that I am ableto do things that are way
outside my comfort zone.
So leveraging that experience tocreate the confidence that I
needed in a moment to dosomething very particular.

(21:40):
So confidence.
A lot of times I can't do thisbecause it's confident.
I was having a conversation awhile ago with a client and she
said like I can't do a webinaryet because I'm not confident.
I don't feel confident yet in myability to do that.
And I said, it's not confidence.
It says you have to have thecourage to do all of these
little steps that are required,that are a part of holding a
webinar.
Holding a webinar is theoutcome.

(22:01):
And that's the big, beautifulthing that people see that very
visual thing.
However, there's a lot of theselittle invisible steps that we
have to take in order toactually have a webinar and post
it and record it.
And it became, it's not theconfidence, it's the courage.
It's the courage to do all thoselittle things.
It's the courage to put yourselfout there.
It's the courage to stand outand be your unique self.

(22:23):
It's the courage to give yourperspective and to be
vulnerable.
And just at the end of the dayto say, I know I'm here to do
something bigger than myself.
I have to find the courage topush through the fears because
somebody needs my solution.
Somebody needs my help.

They definitely do.
In that regard, somebody wouldthink, okay, I need to have
courage to do that, but where doI start?
Where would you suggest?

Making things a lot smaller.
A lot of times we think,especially when it comes to
visibility or like the example Ijust gave around the webinar,
Oh, I want to do a webinar, butit just looks so big and there's
all of these invisible thingsthat happen behind the scenes
that until you do it, you don'tknow that they're there.
And like you having thispodcast, there's a whole bunch
of technology that your audiencelistening is not going to know

(23:12):
that you had to do.
So we get really stuck so, somany times and so often in this
is the big goal, but where weare right now is so far away
from the end result that it justseems overwhelming.
There's so much unknowns,there's so many risks, and then
we just shut down and wecontinue to hide.
So start getting the courage,have a goal that you want to

(23:33):
work towards and then break thatgoal down into small steps.
And make those steps as small asyou have to make them in order
for them to feel manageable, tonot feel so scary, where you can
use just a little bit of courageinstead of a lot of courage.
It's going to all depend again,what your drive is and how big

(23:53):
that belief is, how much courageyou need to take a step.
So to start developing thecourage, break things down into
small steps.
At the end of the day I think ofthe picture of Hopscotch we have
that we play here in Canada, Idon't know if you have the same
thing where it's basicallysquares on the ground with
numbers and you can throw a rockonto a number and then you're

(24:14):
jumping on one leg on all thesquares to get from one to ten.
To get from the start to yourgoal or the number one to number
ten, you can take every singlestep and hit every single number
from one through ten.
Or you can skip.
You can skip one number.
You can skip three numbers.
It all depends.
At the end of the day, itdoesn't matter.

(24:35):
You're still going to get to thesame place, whether you take 10
single steps or you take threeleaps and a small step.
It's understanding what are youcomfortable with?
What feels good to you rightnow?
And then just having the courageto take that next step.
Focusing on taking one step at atime.
Learn from that.

(24:56):
Apply it and then keep moving tocreate the momentum.

That would suggest a coach to help them
through that would be veryhelpful.
But the problem I see there, andI guess that's why I don't do
any webinars or get on theinternet, is I don't know, even
though for 25 years I've beenrunning a marketing services
company, what would people wantto hear from, say, me?
And I would assume that ifyou're lacking confidence, and

(25:21):
you're female, and you're anexpert in your field, and you're
feeling this, what am I to talkabout?

And that's a big fear too.
And what are you going to talkabout?
You talk about just theconversations that you have when
you go networking.
What questions are people askingyou?
What are other, coaches orexperts in your network in your
industry, what are they talkingabout?
But then what's your perspectiveon that topic?
We don't always, we always thinkthat we have to be novel in what

(25:49):
we talk about or how we sharesomething or how we're visible.
A lot of times though to keepthings easy, just look at what
other people are saying and thenapply your unique perspective to
it.
Express yourself it through thattopic and in a very unique way
that is you.
So we don't always have toreinvent the wheel, that's a big
visibility truth, or myth, isthat at the end of the day, you

(26:14):
can talk about the same thingover and over again.
Because then it actually helpsestablish you as the expert in
X, whatever that topic is.
And especially if you're onsocial media with the
algorithms, chances are youraudience isn't seeing you do all
those 10 posts.
So they're only going to catch acouple.
So we always think everythinghas to be novel.

(26:35):
No.
Repetition is actually how we,it's a powerful way to learn.
It's also a powerful way forother people to learn what you
do and what you are an expertin.

You hit that on the nail.
Repetition is everything inmarketing.
So one of the things that I amseeing out there and with my
clients too, for example I'vebeen working with a client for
nearly six years now.
She's too busy to talk to methis month or last month because
she's got a big contract and Ijust work in the background and
I haven't spoken to her for acouple of weeks.
Often you're going to haveclients who are experts in their

(27:06):
field.
They're flat out doing the work.
Now, what we're talking abouthere is actually marketing, and
I keep saying in my newsletter Italk about the Eisenhower
matrix, the important that's noturgent is your marketing.
Where does a busy person findthe time to do this and why
should they do it?

So why I'll start with that and to market
yourself.
If you're a business owner, inorder to be seen and heard, you
have to be found and hired,which means you have to put
yourself out there.
You have to find a way to marketyourself and get in front of
your ideal audience.
That's the why.
If you want to grow yourbusiness, if you want to do what
you feel called to do, you haveto be found.

(27:51):
Which means you have to shinethat spotlight on yourself and
share what it is that you do.
If not, people can't find youand they can't hire you.
And just like how, like the howis important.
There's so many different waysto be visible, to market
yourself right now.
And I get this question a lot,and that's where a lot of my
clients struggle is.
Everyone else is doing this, butI don't feel great doing that.

(28:14):
My response to them is thendon't do it.
And it might be this greatmarketing tool, but is it
something that you can adapt tomake it more your own?
You can adopt certain elementsof it, but not everything.
Or you can just abandon the,that entire strategy that's
working for others, but it's notnecessarily vibing with you.

(28:37):
My big message when I work withfemale entrepreneurs is at the
end of the day, alignment ishuge.
How you market yourself, it hasto feel good because if it's not
feeling good, then you're notgoing to want to show up.
You're not going to want tomarket yourself because you're
not putting yourself like you'renot feeling good putting
yourself out there, which meansyou're not going to want to do
it.
And then when you do, there's anenergy.

(28:58):
Your audience is going to feelthat and then they're not going
to be attracted to it.
It's actually going to do theopposite effective of marketing.
So for me, it becomesunderstand, how do you want to
put yourself out there?
That feels really good to you.
What does visibility look andfeel like to you?
What are you doing?
How are you showing up?
How are you seeing yourself?
How are you hearing yourselfspeak?

(29:20):
And then find differentstrategies that aligned with
that vision.
And then again, you can adoptsomething, parts of it, adapt
elements or just abandonstrategies when they don't feel
good.
They might have felt really goodwhen you started them, but then
over time your business andyourself, you grow and evolve
and they no longer feel good.

(29:41):
You have the ability to abandonthat and try something different
and really explore what feelsgood.

Yep, that is exactly right.
That's what they've got to do.
But they've also got to make thetime to do As I said luckily,
some of my clients have got meworking the background, keeping
an eye on things.
But social media actuallyputting posts out.
For example, I post to Twitter.
Facebook automatic.
I do a lot of automatic postingsbut you've still got to come up

(30:07):
with the content to put stuffout there.
Now, I signed up for a Twitterprogram the other day and it
wants me to put out five times aday and I'm struggling keep up
with this stuff.
But you can automate lot ofthese things, but they still
need the time put together whatare they going to say.
And as I said, a lot of clientsand probably a lot of your

(30:28):
clients get word of mouth work.
Or they have their regulars onretainers, for example, all mine
are on retainer.
So I've been working with someof mine for 15 years which is
incredible.
Some people get workautomatically.
They're the expert, they getasked to quote or something, and
then they get the job.
So they're continuously working.

(30:48):
So they feel that maybe theydon't need to do the marketing.
But I keep saying with thisEisenhower, the important that's
not urgent is that you need toset the time aside and work this
out.
You can't always be working.
You've got to be, oh, runningthe other parts of the business.
Again, Should they make time forthis?
What are your thoughts on it?

Oh, yeah, because there's only so much
time and I don't necessarilybelieve in time management.
I believe in activitymanagement.
So you can manage youractivities because at the end of
the day time is time.
And it see, as I get older, itjust seems to fly so much more.
So it becomes really somewhatunderstanding what at the end of
the day, what is your businessgoal?

(31:31):
What is that vision that you'reworking towards?
What does that look like?
Where are your strengths andyour gifts?
Especially if you're a businessowner, I'm all about focusing on
you being that visible CEO.
You're the visionary.
And so what does that entail?
And then if you can, what arethings that you can delegate to
others like yourselves, yourclients delegating certain work

(31:53):
to you?
What are your must do's that youlove to do that you do not want
to get rid of?
And then what are yourboundaries around things as
well?
So for social media, again, it'sthis, There's the pros and cons
of social media, but we are inthat digital online world right
now.
So for me, it becomes just startsmall and pick one.

(32:14):
I call it the rule of one.
What is one thing you can doevery day to get one step
closer, 1 percent better toachieving your goal.
So if you need to be on socialmedia for your business, pick
one platform.
And then is there systems thatyou can use?
Is there automation that you canuse to take your time out of it?
But understanding what do youreally love to do?

(32:36):
What is your brilliance?
What are other things that haveto happen in order for your
business to run?
Can you delegate them or do theyeven really need to be done?
Or can you not do them shortterm, long term?
But at the end of the day, it'sall about someone has to have
really good clarity around theirbusiness, how everything
operates.

(32:56):
How much time do they want toinvest in being visible in
certain strategies?
Because there may not be areturn on investment.
So it's studying your data,settling your analytics and then
making the decisions.
And sometimes it may not makeany sense to be putting time
into a certain activity.
And other times you may look atyour data and say, Oh, it really

(33:20):
does make sense for me to beputting more time into
marketing, but I just don't haveit.
Okay.
But when you have the data, youcan then make much more clear
decisions on where to spend yourtime and where the things that,
again, you can delegate or youcan just stop doing.

I think that is so spot on.
It's not about time management.
It is a strategic decision, butyou've got to have some sense of
strategy and thinking.
So really, now we're talkingabout how you actually run a
business.
You have to do the work to earnyour money.
But, for some of my clients,look, I've just rebuilt a big

(33:55):
website for one of myconstruction companies I work
with, believe it or not.
They do fairly big jobs.
They don't need that manyclients.
The website that I do for themand do all the writing on it for
them.
It's only just an, a backupbecause word of mouth is where
and they repeat customers causethey, they build big multi story

(34:16):
apartments in the snow andthey're experts at being able to
get in there when it's warm andget the thing done.
So they're continuously busy.
They don't need that manyclients.
They still need a website, butthey just need it managed.
But one of the things youmentioned there was outsourcing
or delegating.
How important is that?

I think it's really extremely important,
especially as you're growing abusiness.
And I was reading this bookcalled Rocket Fuel, and it talks
about how these companies thatare growing and scaling, you've
got the CEO who is visionary.
In order to be in that visionaryrole, where they're thinking of
these great ideas, how are wegoing to grow?
And then they're that veryvisible face of their business.

(34:57):
You have to have this like thisperson in behind the scenes
almost as if it's the engine tothe sports car that's making it
run.
And the CEO is the sports car.
And the COO is the engine.
And they're called, it's thevisionary, the CEO, and then the
integrator.
So for me it becomes likeunderstanding what is your role?

(35:18):
Do you have to delegate?
Yes, over time.
If you really want to grow andscale to a certain level, again,
going back to having a verycrystal clear goal.
What is your goal for yourbusiness?
How big do you want to grow?
How fast do you want to grow?
Because we can, in some cases,control a lot of those
variables.
The understanding you can onlygrow so, so big and so far and

(35:39):
so fast by yourself.
And understanding what are yourstrengths.
And do you want to continue tobe the CEO?
I know of a female entrepreneur.
So she was, she's obviously theCEO, but she hired an external
CEO and she brought in someoneelse to be the CEO of her
business because she realizedthat wasn't her strength.

(36:00):
But it's still her company.
So delegating, I think it'sreally important for you to
understand what your strengthsare.
What do you love to do?
Where is your brilliance?
What comes really easy to you?
And then start delegating as youwant to grow.
Again, having a crystal clearvision.
Delegating activities becauseyou can't do everything You
know, at the end of the day, youcan't do everything.

(36:21):
If you want to sleep, if youwant to have a life, if you want
to spend time with the peoplethat you really care about, and
actually be present with them,even from a self care
perspective, you have to manageyour activities.
So that you have the time to bewhere you want to be.
So delegating, absolutely.
But I think you need to be clearon what's that business goal?

(36:43):
What are your strengths?
What do you love to do?
What are the things you reallydon't want to do?
And then start finding peoplethat you know and trust to take
on those elements of yourbusiness so that you have the
time and the space to create thefreedom to focus on where and
how you grow your business andalso be with the people that you
want to spend your time and yourlife with.

You're spot on.
We do that already.
If you've got an accountant,you've got a bookkeeper, you've
got somebody who mows yourlawns, we're delegating all the
time.
I would suggest probably thefirst one is, for a small.
Independent sort ofprofessionals, maybe they'd get
a VA or, depending on theirturnover too, because, it can
get a bit expensive when you'reoutsourcing.

(37:23):
All right, let's talk about yourbusiness now a bit more.
You do quite a few things.
So there's two sides to do thethings that you do, but you also
run a business.
Obviously, when we're talkingabout visibility, you're making
yourself visible.
Tell me about your business.
So first of all what are thethings you do and can offer?

(37:44):
And then we'll talk about someother bits.

Absolutely.
So one thing that I'm doing is,and I've been very open in and
sharing my own business journey,where I got to the end of 2023
and I realized that my businesswasn't giving me joy anymore.
This beautiful business that Icreated and I grew and I was
successful.
I met my metrics for success.

(38:06):
I was no longer getting as muchjoy out of it as I wanted to.
So in 2024, I switched things upa little bit where I used to do
coaching.
I used to have a coachingprogram that I delivered and
that was really the most thingthat I did.
Now I'm going back to my rootsand my true passion, which came
from the TV show.

(38:27):
And I'm really focusing on localentrepreneurs.
So running workshops,collaborating with other
entrepreneurs and reallyhighlighting them.
And allowing them to be visible.
So that's something I'm workingon now, but I'm also doing a lot
of fractional COO work for smallbusiness owners who they're
stuck in the weeds and theycan't grow their business
because they're doing all theday to day things.

(38:49):
My background in corporate wascompliance, operations,
processes, training, so I get touse all of those very analytical
skill sets to help other peopleto be the engine for their
business, that they can be outthere as a very visible CEO.
So that's what I'm focusing onright now.

Let's just talk about the C O O.
What does that mean?
Now the interesting thing is youmentioned operational.
I think that's really important,because, if you're a one person
business, you do need to stepback and look at the operational
side of it.
So talk to me about what a C Ois.

danielle-joworski_1_07-17- (39:21):
COO.
So a fractional COO is somethingthat is becoming more popular,
at least here in Canada.
And so the fractional chiefOperations Officer, where you're
taking a lot of the Day-to-Daywork off of the plate of the
CEO, so that they can focus onsales conversations, they can
focus on being more visible,coming on podcasts and

(39:41):
networking and closing thebigger deals.
So from an operationsperspective, it really varies
depending on the business andthe stage that they're in.
I've created lead magnets andworkbooks, presentations
webinars done somereconciliations and some
invoicing.
So it really varies, which Ilove.
I love variety and I love beingthat invisible engine behind

(40:06):
other people.
So they can be more visible atthe end of the day.
So it's all those day to dayactivities that are keeping
entrepreneurs hiding or stuck inthe weeds that allows them to
just, again, have that freedomto really focus on those growth
activities for the business.

That's a business a lot of independent
professionals who've hadcorporate experience can be
running, in any country thatthey're in, who's listening to
this.
When you say fractional, whatdoes that mean?

It means part time and really all depending on
however many hours the businessneeds.
One client is 15 hours a week,another client is 10 hours a
month.
So it's really understandingwhat are the needs of the
client.
And then I'm How can I bestsupport and serve them?

That's perfect isn't it?
An independent professional, youonly need, what, four or five of
those, and, as long as you'vegot more than one that's quite a
viable business, isn't it?
Alright stepping back how do youorganize your whole business,
because the way I look at abusiness is you've obviously got
to get revenue by doingsomething, by offering your
services, but you've got to doyour marketing, you've got to

(41:13):
run the business, hopefully,it's profitable.
How are you the COO of your ownbusiness?
Okay.

danielle-joworski_1_07-17- (41:21):
Like we've talked about delegating.
So I delegate out thoseactivities that I do not find
joy doing those things.
Like my bookkeeping, myaccounting, I have someone else
doing that.
I have at different periods oftime over my business, I've had
someone else doing my socialmedia, but I've always taken it
back.
I actually like creating myposts.

(41:43):
I like being that voice For me,that's very important.
I put a lot of time and effortinto developing my voice, and
again, that courage to share myvoice.
I've always taken my socialmedia back for myself as well.
But, there's always this bigpressure to scale to whatever

(42:04):
that number is or whatever thataudience growth is.
But I'm actually lucky where I,most of my clients come from
repeat or referrals.
I have a very loyal client base,so I just get to, I just get to
be, so I don't have to focus toomuch time and energy on a lot of
activities like I still need todo marketing.

(42:25):
So I have a strategy for that.
I have a mastermind group thatI'm a part of where I can bounce
ideas off of, so I don'tnecessarily have to hire someone
to do my marketing.
I do my own PR and I havesystems set up for that.
I also do a lot of asking.
Again, going back to when Istepped into business a second
time, one of the things Ilearned was ask for help.

(42:46):
When I have conversations withpeople, I always ask them, how
can I help you?
Is there something that you needin your business?
How can I help?
Can I make a connection?
Which when I ask for the help,it typically becomes
reciprocated.
So someone will ask me, how canI help you?
And it becomes can you connectme to someone who can help me
with X, Y, or Z?

(43:07):
And that's how I find that I'vebeen able to work smarter, I've
been able to work faster andmanage a lot of the activities
in my business without theoverwhelm.

Now that's an interesting thing I've just
thought of.
Do you think women are moreconfident in asking other women
for help?
Because as a bloke, I probablydon't ask anyone.
I try and, I just try and figureit out or I'll buy a course and
go nuts with 20 trying to getthrough them.
What do you think?

danielle-joworski_1_07 (43:36):
Speaking of her experience, again, my
background was I wouldn't askfor help.
I've since learned from help andI learned to ask for help more
because of really watching otherfemale entrepreneurs who were
very generous with wanting tohelp.
It just makes me want to help aswell.
I had to learn, so I had tolearn that skill set so it

(43:58):
didn't come naturally to me.

And I guess there's some point where you
need to pay for it too.
For example, IT support.
I'd pay for somebody to clean upall the wires on my desk.
I put a picture the other day.
There's wires hanging offeverywhere.
It's reasonably neat, butthere's lots of wires.
I would pay somebody to come inand sort that out and really
neaten it up for me.
So there is a point where it'snice to ask, but there's a point

(44:21):
where you can't go past whereyou need to pay for it, isn't
there, I think.

Absolutely.
Yes.
And I think.
that's where a lot ofentrepreneurs and, maybe your
experiences is different thanmine, but I find a lot of times
the entrepreneurs, especiallywhen you're working with other
entrepreneurs, it becomes we'reso great at helping, but then
all of a sudden, what's thattipping point where you have to
stop and say the next time thereneeds to be a conversation about
payment.
And for me it's that shiftingwhere, and this is where I

(44:46):
struggled, especially inbusiness.
The first time it was, you justwant to help and becomes, Oh,
that, that money conversationcould be really challenging.
Cause I think definitely there'sa money mindset sometimes in
some money limitations arounddoing things that we love to do
and serving others and thingsthat just come naturally to us.
We don't necessarily attach avalue to it or we have a hard

(45:09):
time shifting from thevolunteering to then charging
for a service.
So I think that there'sdefinitely some barriers and
some limitations sometimes, butdefinitely like over time, just,
yeah, it becomes, I want to payyou.
I want to pay you.
And then the other person saysno.
Okay.
So I'm sending you a gift cardthat, or I'm sending you

(45:30):
flowers, but I feel like therehas to be some sort of exchange
of energy in some way.
When you are, when you'rehelping and then when you're
serving and whether you'recharging or not charging, but at
the end of the day, we can'thave hobby businesses that are
super expensive, If we're notcharging people for for our
services.

I think that's the line there.
Whereas you end up becoming ahobby business and you can't pay
for the toys and things and thetechnology and all the things
you want.
Okay, so tell me, who would youlike to work with?

So I love to work with female entrepreneurs
who are over 40 and startingtheir businesses, either at that
idea stage or they're up to fiveyears, who have that clear goal
that they know what they want todo.
They just need help overcomingthose visibility fears, the
doubts, the worries, the fear ofthe blunders, thinking it's

(46:24):
confidence when it's courage.
Like those women who just, theyknow they're here to create some
bigger impact.
They're just struggling to feelcomfortable and confident
putting themselves out there andallowing that spotlight to shine
on them.

And this can be across the world, can't it?
Now so working with you, whatdoes it involve?
When somebody contacts you andsaid, look, I'm one of these
people I'm in this situation,how do you start with them?

Starts with a conversation.
And I don't call theminterviews, I don't call them
discovery calls, nothing likethat.
It's just a conversation at theend of the day.
It's understanding what is yourbusiness?
What are you passionate about?
What is your biggest challengeright now?
And can I help you through myvery diverse skillset?
And if not, it becomes, can Irefer you to somebody else who's

(47:14):
more suited or who's a bettersolution for you?

That is fantastic.
Now that is so helpful in thatregard.
Okay, do you want to talk abouta couple of practical things
that they might like to try andthen we'll talk about how you'd
like to connect with them andyour newsletter because in your
newsletter you had an offerthere as well, didn't you, I
think.

I did Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
So in the newsletter, it's just,if you go to my website, you
sign up for my newsletter, youget a visibility audit.
So it's really understanding andhelping you to gain clarity of
how visible are you.
So often we think to be visible,it's all these big, bold
activities and strategies suchas coming on and recording a

(47:58):
podcast or doing a webinar, butthere's so many small, tangible
actions that we could be taking,and I call them baby steps, that
are just as powerful from avisibility perspective.
An example is having a call toaction in your email signature.
What do you want people whenthey receive an email from you
and they get down to your emailsignature?

(48:19):
What do you want them to do?
Is it a booking link to book aconversation with you?
Is it a link to go to connectwith you on social media?
There's so many little thingsthat we can do to be more
visible in our business thatoften they're so small we don't
think of them, but they'rereally powerful.
So that's in the the visibilityaudit.
That's a part of when you signup for my newsletter.

That sounds like a very generous offer.
I would recommend that highly.
All right.
Thank you very much.
How would you like people toconnect with you?

The best way to connect with me is on social
media.
I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram.
And if you like what I'm sharingon those platforms, you could
always DM me as well.
Again, I, like I said here, I domy own social media.
So if you do DM me and have anyquestions, you will be getting
me responding to you.

That's fantastic.
Danielle, thank you very muchfor being on the podcast.
You've been a wonderful guest,you've given us lots and lots of
stuff.
So thank you for that.

Thank you Nigel for this opportunity and
for making the conversationeasy.

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