From Chaos to Clarity: Eliška Šestáková on Building Smarter Note Systems

Episode Transcript
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Nigel Rawlins (00:00):
Welcome to today's episode on note-taking,

(00:02):
with my special guest, EliškaŠestáková.
Eliška a productivity expert,and an academic from the Czech
Republic was recommended to mefor her innovative methods for
organizing information.
With a background in computerscience and exploration of
techniques for personalknowledge management, she has
developed systems that helpprofessionals boost their

(00:24):
learning, productivity andproject management.
In this episode, Eliška sharesher insights on the power of
note-taking systems likeZettelkasten and Roam Research,
an app designed to help youorganize ideas and connect
knowledge.
She'll explain how effectivedigital or paper note taking
helps professionals stayorganized, improve

(00:45):
decision-making and enhancetheir project management skills.
Eliška's, his advice willencourage you to rethink how you
manage information.
So listen and discover howefficient note taking can
transform how you work, thinkand grow.
Eliška,, welcome to theWisepreneurs podcast.
Could you tell us where you'refrom and something about you?

Eliška Šestáková (01:08):
Hello, Nigel.
So first, thank you for havingme, thank you for inviting me,
it's an honor.
So, I'm from Czech Republic.
So it's in the middle of Europeand, something about me, what I
love to say, uh, is that I am apassionate note taker, because I
take notes almost abouteverything and almost always.

(01:33):
So that's the first thing I,that I talk about myself.
And.
I also love systems, uh,organizing stuff, building note
taking systems.
And, as for my professionalbackground, I am an academic.
And I work at Faculty ofInformation Technology, in
Prague at Czech TechnicalUniversity.

Thomas Baranek, told me to talk to you because
he said you were the expert innote taking.
And note taking is really big inthe world, but the thing I have
a problem with with the notetaking is there's fantastic ways
of doing it, but shouldeverybody be taking notes?
And particularly, this podcastis aimed at independent

(02:18):
professionals.
These are people who areprobably older, working for
themselves.
Should they still be takingnotes?
And what is the use of notes?
I want to talk a lot about notestoday.

Yeah, it's my favorite topic.
So, great.

Good.

First, Tomáš is very kind.
He's using very kind words whenhe's talking about me.
So, I appreciate it.
I think notes can be beneficialto, like, really everyone.
Of course people will use notesdifferently, so, and we are all
different people, so we need adifferent, uh, let's say, level

(02:58):
of note taking, or, uh,different, approach to it.
So, for example, me, I am very,uh, nerdy and very, uh,
systematically oriented.
So my note taking system is verycomplex and maybe most people,
would be scared of it, but, uh,it doesn't mean that they can't

(03:20):
take notes.
Even, uh, very simple systemscan be very beneficial and can
help them in many ways, like inwork and also in personal life.

I think at the simple level, we might make a
note to say that, look, if Idon't write down the shopping
list when I go to thesupermarket, there's a good
chance I'll forget something.
So that's at its simplest level.
But for a professional, whyshould they be taking notes?
And what should they be doingwith them?

Well, for professionals, I think I see
maybe two main ways, uh, howthey can use notes.
And first is for theirprofessional development.
So, they usually need to, uh,grow as a professional, reading
books, taking courses.
And, if we don't take notes onthis knowledge, then, uh, we

(04:16):
don't use that knowledge as muchas we could, or we don't exploit
it as much as we could.
Uh, so this is definitely, uh,one way of doing it.
And the second one is forprojects.
So when I'm a professional, forexample, uh, me, I'm writing a
newsletter, running a website.
So I take lots of notes, uh, onmy projects.

(04:37):
So when I put down the projectfor, I don't know, a month or
two, because I am busy withdoing something, something else.
I can get back to it veryquickly, uh, like in a minute,
basically, because I took notesabout where I, where my work
ended and where my thoughtswere, and I have all the

(04:59):
materials gathered.
So it's the working on theproject, it's, it's faster and
it's easier, definitely easier.
So that's, I think, uh, is themost beneficial.

Well, that was the main thing.
I, I think if, for example, ifyou're an independent
professional, you're working foryourself, you really do have to
keep up to date and therefore,um, maybe listening to podcasts,
reading books, reading articles,that's a great deal of
information coming in.
What do you do with your notesand how do you sort them out and

(05:36):
what happens with them?

Well, I think maybe I will go back a little.
And, uh, before I take notes, Ithink it's very important to
decide what you will spend yourtime on.
Like, what books, what podcasts,what articles you will be
reading.
And notes can be alsobeneficial, with this question
and answer.
Because when I, I don't know,found a podcast or a book or

(06:01):
something, I just put it into mynotes.
Like I call it a contentfreezer.
So I put it there and I take asmall notes about why it
interested me.
So why I think it could bebeneficial and it's, it's there
in my list.
And, uh, usually, from time totime, once a week, uh, I don't

(06:25):
know, once a month, when I havetime, I go through this list and
I, uh, like, skim the, skim thecontent, skim the book, skim the
podcast, uh, it's calledinspectional reading, if I'm
using, like, the term, it's fromthe book How to Read a Book from
Mortimer Adler.
I don't know.

(06:45):
Do you know that book?

Yes,

I found that fascinating.
So I do the inspectional readingphase on these sources to get a
bigger picture, broad picture onwhat the source is about.
And I'm thinking about how itcan help me with what projects,
what questions I have, myproblems.

(07:08):
And I will connect it inside mynote taking system.
I will connect it with these,uh, like problems, questions,
and, and projects.
So when it comes out to decidewhat I want to read next or
listen to next, I will not go tomy reading list, but I will go
to, like, my projects, myproblems, my questions, and I

(07:34):
will find what is like, mybiggest priority, because, uh,
and, uh, and after that, I willchoose the sources I linked to
that problem, for example.
So, when I'm really, really,like, unsatisfied with, let's
say, my sleep, that it could bebetter.
So, I have a question in my notetaking system, how can I make my

(07:56):
sleep better?
So, and if it's really like, anissue for me, then I will have a
high motivation for, uh, readingthe sources and taking,
absorbing the information andtaking notes because taking
notes is hard.
It's hard when you do it on thewrong stuff.

(08:16):
Uh, it may become boring.
You may feel it's boring.
You might feel likeprocrastinate on, uh, finishing
the book or something.
And I feel it's because wechose, the wrong book or the
wrong content because it is not,uh, as relevant to us at the
moment as it could be.

(08:38):
So I always go or start, uh,from the project questions and
problems when I'm deciding whatto, what to read.
So that's, that's the firstpart.
Maybe I will stop here if youwant to add anything and then I
will continue.

I was going to say that's a very disciplined
approach.
So there's a couple of thingsthere too, because what I think
you're saying there is there'spersonal notes, and then there's
also the research type notesthat to use for your projects or
maybe your articles and stufflike that.
So first of all, are you readingactually physical books or

(09:13):
digital books?
And what's the system and wheredo you put them?

Yeah, well, I came from being a paper person
to paperless person like ebooksonly.
And then I, it's like one yearback, I think I came back to
paper books.
So at the moment I'm paperperson again, and I'm very happy

(09:38):
about it.
So, uh, I think maybe I willtalk a bit about this transition
because it may be interesting topeople.
So, first when I was reading,uh, paper books and, uh, it was
a course I took, uh, buildingsecond brain from Tiago Forte,
where he explained like benefitsof ebooks, like that you can

(10:02):
extract highlights, like on oneclick and you can get it to tool
like Readwise, and then it canbe synced to your note taking
app.
And I saw that and it was like,oh, I can be so much smarter
with these tools.
So I ditch almost all my paperbooks, I bought all electronic

(10:24):
ebooks.
And, it took me, I think, liketwo years, um, before I realized
that I don't like that approachas much.
And that it is, it was likeonly, um, an illusion of getting
smarter, faster.
Because I was extractinghighlights.

(10:44):
But It felt like work when Ineeded to go back to those
highlights in my note taking appand do something with them.
So it felt like work.
I really needed the disciplineto do it.
When I was reading paper books,I could really just focus on the
book, read a chapter orsomething, think about it, and

(11:07):
take notes in my own words, notjust extract highlights and
stuff.
So I think, the main, the mainreason is definitely that it
makes me happier to read, uh,paper books.
So that's definitely the mainreason.
And also that I realized that,uh, the speed is not the issue

(11:29):
or the way that when I learnfaster, it doesn't make me
happier when I'm learningfaster, and I'm still not sure
if that is even the truth that Iam learning faster.
It's maybe just the illusionwith the, with the e books.
So I came back, uh, to paperbooks, and, um, it was because
of the book How to Read a Book,which I first started to read as

(11:53):
an e book, and I was makinghighlights, and I was realizing
that I'm trying to take thehighlights and extract the
essence of the chapter, but itdoesn't matter.
It didn't matter how manyhighlights I took.
It still wasn't the wholepicture or, or something.

(12:14):
I really needed to take my ownnotes.
So, uh, that's when I realizedthat taking highlights doesn't
make any justice to this book.
And for some books, it's okay.
For some books, for somearticles, I do use electronic
versions and highlights, butwhen the book or the source is,
like, really something, reallysomething, and I want to dig it

(12:36):
out completely, and it'simportant for me, then I use it.
prefer paper, uh, and takingnotes with my own words and
writing them on paper or marginsand then going to note taking
app.
Yeah, so this was maybe alsopart of your question.

(12:57):
So I take notes in margins inthe paper books.
I underline and take, uh, smallnotes and it depends how long
the book is, but sometimes Imove these notes.
To my note taking app after Ifinish the whole book.
Sometimes, when I finish achapter.

(13:17):
So it depends on the length ofthe book and also on its
complexity and topic.

I had to do something similar recently.
I read a book digitally tookhighlights, but I've never
checked them.
But

Mm hmm.

was quite fascinating for me.
It was about, believe it or not,strategy, business strategy by a
chap called Peter Compo, who I'mspeaking to in September on the
podcast.
I had to buy his book, thephysical book, and then go
through the book and I take lotsof notes on cards.
So I took 160 cards and then I

Wow.

through those cards to, till I distilled it
down to about 20 cards

Mm

to write about it to really understand and then
I've got to try and put it intopractice because it's quite a
practical book but it's, it'shard to get your head around.

Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.

trying to read it digitally, It just wasn't
getting into my head,

Yeah.
It just didn't work.
I don't know why, but sometimesit just didn't work.

Yeah.
Well, that's the secret.
And I think we, like, I haveprobably hundreds of books.
I'm, I'm, I've got to stopbuying books.
I've just got to get throughthem on my Kindle, but I also
have hundreds of books on mybookshelves and which I'd still
like to get to, but some of theKindle books, I came across a
really good sounding,interesting books, and I just
grab it digitally and some ofthem are fast to read and some I

(14:36):
don't really want the book, thetopic's interesting.
And I have a serious problem, Ibuy too many different subjects.
But the lovely thing I findabout some of the books and some
of the words and and that's whysome of the highlights are
really good is some people havegot a really good way of
explaining things and you wantto capture that But Yeah,

I know what you mean.

I agree with you.
I think both methods are good,but I agree having the book in
front of you and having asystem.
So how does how does yourreading and your note taking
work with your computer science?

Well, it was actually my PhD studies that led
me to note taking.
Because when I was writing mydissertation, I was overwhelmed
with articles and books and myown thoughts and my own articles
that I needed to transformsomehow into dissertation.
And I had notes on the papers onthe articles I printed out.

(15:39):
I had some, some, some notebooksand, papers and everything.
So I didn't use as much, someapps, note taking apps back
then.
Uh, I had Evernote, but I rarelyopened it.
So when I tried to these allinto dissertation.

(16:00):
I quickly realized that I needsome help, so I Googled just,
uh, I'm not sure what I Googled.
I think first it was somethingabout how to write dissertation,
so, lots of books ondissertation writing, I read
several of them, but I realizedthat some of them were
motivational.

(16:21):
Some of them were practical, butusually for humanities, like
humanities studies, but I wasfrom a computer science
department.
So there was some, I don't know,like qualitative research or
quantitative research.
And so it wasn't relevant for,for, for me.
So it was when I found A bookcalled, Writing in Computer

(16:43):
Science, from I'm not sure howhis name is pronounced.
It's Zober, I think.
And it's very, very highlyrelevant for computer
scientists.
So it was, it was a great book,but it still wasn't enough.
It still didn't give me theabout how to manage all the
stuff and transform it Intodissertation So it was when I

(17:07):
found the book How to TakeNotes.
I just Googled and found thebook and read the annotation and
it sounded relevant.
I wasn't giving it high hopes.
But, uh, I thought, okay, itwill not hurt to read it.
So I start reading it and, uh, Iquickly realized that it's

(17:32):
highly relevant.
And that there is a system thatcan really help me to get this
through.
It was also when I ordered, likepaper version, because first I
purchased the digital versionand I realized that I need the
paper version, uh, to get themost of it.
So I ordered it.
I read it.
I implemented what is called theZettelkasten system.

(17:52):
And, It was, yeah, basicallythis system and Roam Research
software I found when I wasimplementing the Zettelkasten
note taking system that helpedme to get through it, to help me
sort the notes I already had,but also when I was reading
other books and articles that Ineeded to finish my thesis.

(18:16):
Also with this new stuff, uh, ithelped me to get, get the
dissertation done andsuccessfully, I, I may say now,
so, successfully.
So, yeah, that, that's one wayhow notes helped me in my
academic field.
And it also is helping me withmy teacher career.

(18:37):
And when I'm teaching studentsand preparing correct lectures
it's also very beneficial.
For example, if studentsstruggle with some exercise, I
may take notes, what thestruggles, uh, were.
So for example, where they wereconfused or about their
questions and next year, uh,when I am teaching this course

(19:01):
again, without notes, most ofthe stuff I would forget, but
with those notes, I can lookinto them and prepare much
better for the lecture.
So, uh, the lectures are gettingmuch, much better with the notes
I have.
So it's definitely another wayhow to use notes.

Okay.
So what you did, what you'vementioned is the Zettelkasten,
was Sonke Ahrens book, how toTake Smart Notes.

Yes, yes, yes, that's it.

Did you ever come across a lady called Lisa-Marie
Cabrelli?
she,

I was, uh, in her course, it was Academic
Magical Note Taking, something,something like that.
Yes.
I was a beta tester.

nigel-rawlins_1_08-23-202 (19:46):
Okay, so you've done that course.
Lisa's been on the podcast twicenow.

Okay.

nigel-rawlins_1_08-23-202 (19:50):
that, that's where I came across her.
Not that I wanted to do a PhD oranything, I just wanted to get a
better idea of how to use RoamResearch.
She actually spoke about RoamResearch, a couple of others
have mentioned it.
Maybe you could talk a littlebit about Roam Research, or
about note taking apps, becausethere's a lot more around
nowadays, and how they'reuseful.

(20:11):
And, and then I'll mention someof the stuff I do with them.

Yeah, I'm actually doing a course at the,
at the moment on how to choosethe note taking app, because, I
think it's a jungle out therewith lots of these apps popping
out.
And, if people are new to thisrealm of note taking and they
can be overwhelmed with lots ofchoices they have.

(20:36):
So, um, I am putting together acourse that will help them
navigate through this land.
Uh, so what a note taking appis, is it's an app for, for
taking notes, of course.
But, I think we can firstdiscuss what a note is,
basically, because we all havesome vague idea about what a

(20:59):
note is.
But I have some specificdefinition for that.
And that's, it's any record, itcan be text, or it can be audio,
it can be graphic, anything thatis that you are the final
audience for this record.
Because when you write a text tosomeone, you are not the target

(21:20):
audience.
You are writing to someone else.
You need to, uh, for example,over explain some things you
already know, but you aretalking to someone else, so you
need to explain it in otherwords or some other explanation.
But when you are talking toyourself, you can leave things
out because you know them, forexample.
So a note is something that ishelping you to communicate with

(21:45):
yourself, with your future selfand with your present self.
It is for present self as well,because you can, for example,
reflect on your problems andtalk to yourself through these
apps and note taking apps aredesigned for this communication.
For communication with yourfuture and present self, and

(22:06):
they are, uh, equipped with lotsof smart functions for that.
One of the most interestingfunction that came recently are
called bi directional links,which help you connect notes and
then not only to create a linkto some note, but also to see

(22:27):
where you mentioned, all placesin your app where you mentioned,
the specific note.
So that this function or featurethat I'm using heavily in my
workflow, for example, and ithelps you organize with lots of
features like tags, folders, ofcourse, and, and the links and

(22:47):
there are some smart featureslike graph views which basically
led me to Roam Research.
Like, the graph view, it felt soessential that I needed that.
And at the moment, I'm rarelyusing it.
It's there.

We should mention what, what you mean by the
graph.
It's like a picture of space,isn't it?

Yeah.
It's good.
Or, or a web, you can say, a webspider web with, with the dots
connected with, with lines.

And the dots are masses of the same sort of
notes.

Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.

I've been using Roam Research since it came out,
and trying to look at my graph,it takes forever to load because
there's thousands of notes inthere.
I have no idea what's in my RoamResearch, but I do tag all the
time, and like you with thedigital notes, I'm way behind
with processing them, because Iread anything.

(23:41):
I'll read an article on LinkedInor I'll read an article
somewhere else and I'llhighlight it.
Goes through Readwise, ends upin Roam Research and sits there
waiting for me to come back in.
But the only way I'm ever goingto find anything is to learn how
to search in and find it.
Because I'm not reallyorganised.

(24:01):
There's just a mass notes inthere.
But you sound like you're betterorganised than I am.

Well, maybe a little better, but of course my
Roam is also a mess.
But what is great about Roam, Ithink, is that it doesn't bother
you.
Even though you are a controlfreak and you love to organize
stuff.
It doesn't bother you if youhave a mess in Roam because it
is somehow hidden.
You can still have a cleanenvironment even though If there

(24:30):
is some mess underneath andyeah, I think that's great about
Roam and, for example, I thinkyou can't achieve that in
traditional note taking appslike Evernote, maybe even
Obsidian, which are based onfolders.
So if you have a mess in foldersor something, you are still
seeing it.

(24:51):
But in Roam Research, there arepages and blocks and they are in
the background.
And if you don't create ashortcut, for example, for that,
to left sidebar or something, itis It's in the background, you
can search for it, you can findit if you want it, but it's
there, it doesn't bother you,so, yeah, so that's how I

(25:12):
survive.
It's basically, I think, themain reason why I'm still using
Roam, because I am also creatingmess, but it didn't bother me in
Roam.

Well, the biggest danger is having thousands and
thousands of notes in RoamResearch and then wanting maybe
to change to another one.
Now, other ones can import it,but I have no idea what to be
like because I have tried acouple of the others.
And the problem with having beenin one particular note taking
app for a long time, I did tryEvernote before, but it just

(25:45):
wasn't I found it too clunky andjust full of folders, as you
mentioned, Roam Research cameout, so I think I paid 500 US
dollars and I think that gave itto me for five years.
So mine's probably going to runout soon, and I have no idea
what it's going to cost me tokeep going.
But all the others will costsome money too, as well.
But when you said shortcuts, weshould explain that.

(26:07):
It means that if I load all thenotes I've got of a particular
book, but I haven't yet gonethrough and tagged them.
So tag them, that, that's how welink to all the other notes with
the same tag in, in the thing.
You can highlight it and it'llappear on the site.
So it'll always be there and youcan click on rather than having
to search for it.

(26:27):
The other thing about RoamResearch is being able to find a
lot of the linked notes and I'llbe honest, I have never learned
how to search.
I mean, you can put a search inthe top, but you'll only come up
with particular pages, but youcan do query searches, can't
you?
I not a master of querysearches,

Mhm.
Mhm.

But since AI's come in, I get AI to write the
query for me.
So you've got a particular topicyou want to write about, you've
got lots and lots and lots ofnotes in there that are tagged
to each other, so do you queryit to find what you want?

Well, uh, usually when I decide that I
want to write about something,for example, um, a newsletter
issue or a blog post or, I don'tknow, a course, for example,
that I want to create, I createa project page for that or a
page in, in Roam.
And I see it as a hook, a notetaking hook.

(27:20):
And I will hang notes on thishook.
So, I just create a blankproject and I leave it there.
And for some time, for example,a week, a month, it depends on
how much time I have.
I'm just collecting, sources,ideas.
Because when I start to createthe project page and I go for a

(27:41):
walk, for example, thatafternoon or a week after that,
Ideas will start popping into myhead, so I will capture them
into Roam, into daily note page,and I will tag it with the
project page.
So this phase usually takesabout, um, from one week to one

(28:01):
month, and then I will go intothis page and I will sort what I
collected.
And if it is enough, I willstop.
But if it is not enough, then Iwill go through my note taking
system and try to find somethingelse.
I usually don't use queries.
I also just use the simplesearch for keywords, so let's

(28:23):
say I am writing aboutproductivity, so I will just put
a keyword productivity into thesearch bar and look through all
the mentions I have, or I mayhave a note called productivity
in my note taking system, likethe Zettelkasten.
So it is like an index note, andfrom there I may find something

(28:49):
highly relevant for the pieceI'm writing, creating.
So, It's another way how I'mpulling information to my
project.
And, sometimes I just need tosay, okay, now it's enough
because the research may go onand on and on.
So there is a line where I needto just listen to my intuition

(29:10):
that I have enough now and I canstop researching.
So I stop and I've switch to thesecond phase, like creating and
transforming all the stuff Ihave into something new.

Now, this is interesting because one of the
podcast guests I had

hmm.

was Debbie Jenkins

Mm

Debbie, talks about writing how-to books.
rather than writing about thewhole subject, just write a
short how-to book.
And this is where, notetakingespecially for the independent
professionals, if you've gotyour notes somewhere organized
and you can pull them out, thenthis will help you write a

(29:50):
little how-to book.
They don't have to be big books.

Hmm.
Definitely.
Yeah.
Mm hmm.

So, this is, the benefit of taking notes and
reading widely, not overdoingit.
As you said, the intuition is,hey, enough's enough.
Get the damn thing out.

Yeah.

Okay.
So that's interesting becauseyou came across Lisa-Marie
Cabrelli.
You use Roam Research.
You've tried Readwise andhighlighting notes and book
notes and organising them.
So you have a system.
Did you find by doing TiagoForte's course

Building a second brain.

Yeah, so how did that help you with your
organisation?

Mm-Hmm.
Yeah.
So it was where after I read thebook How To Take Smart Notes
from Sonke Ahrens, I was lookingon the internet, searching how
to implement the Zettelkastendigitally because, uh, the book
is about the analog system andnot giving too much advice on
how to do it digitally.

(30:50):
So at first I thought it will beeasy, like, these are the
principles.
Of course, I can do itdigitally.
But when I was trying to make itwork, I came out with lots of
questions.
So I started to, um, look intothem on the internet.
And it was when I found thecourse and Tiago and his course,

(31:10):
Building a Second Brain.
And, I knew it was not aboutZettelkasten, but it was about
Personal Knowledge Management,so highly connected topics.
So I decided to join in.
It was cohort 12, I think, likethree, four years ago.
And, um, again, I didn't havehigh hopes, but, from the

(31:33):
beginning I wrote a tweet aboutmy experience that it was like
my first visit, visit toDisneyland, like I was jumping
from one thing to another andsaying, wow, this is so cool.
So it was really a fascinating,uh, experience for me.
And, it helped me I think toput.

(31:55):
like, basic layer of my notetaking system on which I built
my Zettelkasten.
Because Zettelkasten I see as away of organizing, like, pure
knowledge.
Like, knowledge from books, forexample, and courses, and your
own thinking.
So doing research.
But, of course, you are alsohaving information on your

(32:18):
projects, on your household, onyour loved ones, on your health
or something.
And you also want to sort thisinformation somewhere.
But Zettelkasten, for me, itdoesn't felt like the right way
of doing it.
Because it was for the pureresearch.
So when I had the document aboutmy health, well, where do I put

(32:39):
it?
So, it was the course, Buildinga Second Brain, which provided
answers for these questions.
So where do I put all the basicinformation?
And after that, I, uh, somehowmerge it with Zettelkasten,
which is, I think, a higherlevel of how to organize
knowledge if you are up to it.

(33:00):
But, uh, so Building a SecondBrain, the course and the book
for my point of view is for thereally like the beginners, if
you are starting with personalknowledge management or
information management, and youdon't know what to do, then this
book will help you.
And if you are not satisfiedwith the depth of knowledge, or

(33:21):
if you want more than how totake smart notes and the
Zettelkasten system, maybe theupgrade you are looking for.

And I probably should have mentioned at the
start, I've been taking notesfor years and I've got many,
many notebooks in the cupboard.
But the problem with an analogueor paper notes is it's not easy
to retrieve them.
So, I have no idea, I'm sure Itook really good notes about
topics years ago they'redisorganised and I've still got

(33:50):
piles of them and I really haveto go through.
But the problem is I've got allmy new notes as well.
So, and I'm assuming there'speople out there who are
drowning in notes as well.
Maybe they just need to hiresomebody to scan them and turn
them into text and load theminto something.
I have encouraged people to dothat.

(34:11):
So that's the thing we're tryingto do is not be overwhelmed with
our notes, but have some sort ofsystem where we can retrieve
them use them when we need to.
And really, if you're going tocontinue growing, you've got to
read and take notes and, youknow, understand what the
language means.
And I struggle with words likeepistemology and all that stuff

(34:35):
and and I do take notes about itand keep pulling it out and
pedagogy and how does this allwork and it can be overwhelming
can't it?

Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And also what came to my mind isthat you mentioned like
retrieving the information andstuff from your system.
And I think the system is alsobeneficial in that it provides
you information you are not evenlooking for, but what you may
need.
So what you already forgot, whenyou connect it with a good

(35:07):
keyword and after year or twoyou are looking for that
keyword, then you will stumbleon the notes you already forgot
you had, but that are highlyrelevant or highly useful for
you at the moment.
So, when this moment arises inmy note taking systems, I'm
always happy when, when thishappens.

That's what I like about retrieving notes too,
is because it reminds me ofthings I forget, and stimulates
me because I haven't publishedanything onto my website for
months, but I've written thearticles because I writing stuff
because new topics come up allthe I get, I'm 68 and I'm still
getting excited about topics.

(35:47):
And I've got lots and lots towrite about.
And, um, I've just got to pullthem together.
And I do want to write somesimple how to books about the
stuff, but I don't know, whichone do I want to start with
first?
I need somebody to organize me.
But there's so much fabulousstuff out there.
I can get lost on Twitter andand I do follow people and I

(36:08):
make sure I get notified of theones I'm really interested in
they say here's a fantastic noteabout decision making or
negotiation, an interestingaspect of marketing and oh, I
can get lost and I read aboutWordPress and everything.
It's just crazy.
What I would love is a reallygood AI system to work with

(36:30):
Roam.
Not, to do it all for me, but tohelp me find things and organize
things.
I think that might be comingbecause I downloaded an AI app
on my Macbook the other day,just organises files for me, and
it does it beautifully.
It doesn't lose it justorganises them.
And I'm thinking, that would bewonderful.

Nice.
Nice.

It might be coming, but I haven't seen
anything from Roam.
I don't think I've tried tolearn anything about it lately.
Look, I have tried Obsidian.

Mm

This is the other thing too I'm noticing with note
taking apps.
People get really excited aboutthem and they become an expert
on them and then they do acourse on them and then another
app comes along and they eithermove to that one or somebody
else does it and their one goesout of date.
So that's the danger with havingtoo many note taking apps too.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I think it's called shiny newapp syndrome.
Like when a new app is comingout and people are crazy about
it.
tweeting about it and, uh,posting stuff on social
networks.
Like, this is the app, like,this will change the world.
And you just go with the flowand you install the app and be

(37:45):
there, but only for the periodof time where a new app comes
out and new wave starts.
So, yeah, I myself I was in thishamster wheel for, for, for a
while, but, yeah, when I foundRoam, sometimes people say that
when you are using Roam, youwill have a hard time when you

(38:06):
want to move stuff somewhereelse, but I found that actually
beneficial because it preventsme to migrate, uh, like quickly
and install new app and moveeverything.
So I don't see it as, uh, that Iam like locked in this system
that I can't export my notes.
I can export them.

(38:28):
I can put them in some otherapp.
It will not maybe works sonicely, but it will work
somehow.
But the vision of doing itprevents me to jump ships so
quickly.

Totally agree.
that's the biggest danger,there's so much happening in the
world there's so many thingsthat we want to use like AI and
automation is the next bigthing.
How do we just cut down thestuff that we keep having to do,
how can we automate that?
And there's new software all thetime.
And if, if you're like me,you're using this app and you're

(39:03):
using that app.
And every time you bring a newapp in, you've got to learn it.
And I keep buying all thecourses that are going to show
me how, and I've still got 10courses to get through, which
never get through.
So, what advice would you giveto somebody now saying, okay,
I've got lots of paper notes,you know, this is not working
for me anymore.
What should they do?

(39:23):
Where should they start?

Yeah, just one more thing that came to my mind
about the switching the apps andit's a sentence or something,
some mantra that I try to remindmyself when a new app comes out
and I'm inclined to try it andmaybe, uh, use that instead of
Roam, is that I remind myselfthat Niklas Luhmann, the most

(39:48):
famous user I think ofZettelkasten System didn't have
any note taking app.
He used only wooden boxes withcards, with paper cards, and how
productive he was.
So, I don't need, or we don'tneed, like, the best or perfect
app for doing the work, uh,doing the thinking.
Uh, really just a simple appwill do.

(40:09):
Uh, If there is something thatreally bothers me, like some
feature missing or something,for example, it loads too slowly
or something like this, it is agood reason to switch apps, but
if everything is working and youjust think that you might be

(40:31):
maybe more productive if youmove to this app, then I myself
don't do it.
I always remind myself, Niklashas only wooden box.
And he was productive, so.

nigel-rawlins_1_08-23-2024_ (40:43):
And he wrote lots of books And

yes, yes, yes,

And always incredibly productive.
I think that's the importantthing.
If you've got lots of papernotes now, I think it will be
overwhelming to think about,especially if you're older, how
to digitise those, unless you'reprepared to pay somebody to do
it for you organise it.
One of the things about RoamResearch that annoys me a little

(41:07):
bit, it is a bit technical.
However, that doesn't stop me.
It is the searching is moretech.
And then I guess there's,there's tech heads out there, or
what do you call them?
Who are doing amazing thingswith it because they know how to
write the software for it, mineis very basic.
I just, I just tag stuff andthen hopefully pull it out.

(41:31):
Okay.
So our advice to somebody is, isnot go mad on this, keep it
simple, but gee, where would wepoint them?

Yeah, but in this moment it will be in Czech
language, but, we plan totranslate it into English as
well.
So, after that it will beavailable for most of the
people.
But, for start, I would say justchoose, like, 10 apps, for
example, Use them for a while,just 10 apps, but not use them

(41:59):
like properly, but just to liketest them out, like to see what
options people have and try totake notes about what you like,
what you don't like, what youare looking for, what your use
cases are, for example, what youwant to take notes on, and so
on, and look on the featuresthat the applications offer, and

(42:21):
then just choose one.
Just choose one app, from theseten, and use it, let's say, for
two months.
And don't switch apps, just useit for two months, and then re
evaluate if maybe you findsomething else, but, uh, always
remember that Niklas Luhmann hadjust wooden box.
So you don't need some best,newest app to do the work.

(42:45):
Just some app.
I think Apple Notes would workfor me just fine.
I'm happy with Roam Research.
It has great functions, but Icould do the work with Apple
Notes as well.

I'm going to suggest to people, if you do
subscribe to something, just payby the month.
Don't do what I do and pay bythe year and then suddenly find
after three months that it'sjust terrible.

Yeah.

That's why I waste an awful lot of money.
So if people want to know stuff,I can tell you, I've spent the
money.
I've got lots of programs that Ihave to keep cancelling at the
end of the year.
And I get caught sometimes and Iforget to cancel and I've paid
for another year or somethinglike that.

Yeah, I have a note about that, actually.
I have a note called mysubscriptions.
And I have a list of all mysubscriptions, and I also have a
notification in my calendarreminding me, like, week before
the subscription is renewed.

Cancel.
Cancel.

Do you want to cancel?
Do you want to continue?
Think hard.

Mine's all on a card, I keep updating it, and I
suddenly realise, oh, there'sanother one I forgot about.
Especially apps on my MacBookPro.
I've just gone to Set App, I'llput it in the show notes, where
you don't have to buy all thelittle apps, you just pay I
think$11 a month or somethinglike that and you can download
tiny little apps that do littlejobs.

(44:04):
Rather than me buying this appand that app and that app, and
then having to pay them, I justpay a monthly fee they're
fantastic.
As I said, I paid for Roam aboutfour or five years ago, so I
don't even know what it costsanymore.
Are there any others that you'veheard of that maybe people
should look at?

Mm, I think that if there wasn't Roam, I
would definitely try Logseq orRemNote.
I like RemNote as well.
Basically, I would look foroutliners.
Because, I realized that what Ineed from note taking app is the
outlining feature.
Which basically means that youare always writing lists.

(44:43):
And, also zoom in and out todifferent levels.
So it's very, for example,useful when you are writing
Dissertation, for example.
So when I need to focus only onsome specific section, I can
zoom in and don't see anythingelse.
And if I want to switchchapters, switch sections, I can

(45:04):
do it very easily in outliners.
So this is definitely a featurethat I would be looking for.
And other than that, some appwhich is also providing the
feature we talk about, thebidirectional links, which I
think is very useful.
I'm.
I'm heavily using it, for, Ithink I mentioned it a bit also,

(45:28):
like an inbox workflow.
For example, find some source orhave some idea, I put it on my
note taking inbox, which is theDaily Notes page.
And I tag it with thedestination where I want to see
it.
And, thanks to the bidirectional link feature, when I
go to the destination, I seelinked references or all the

(45:50):
places where I mentioned thisnote, but the body of the note
is, is empty.
It's clean.
So I can go through the list andmove it, transform it into the
body.
And, uh, so this.
workflow, I'm using it heavilyin my projects, in my notes I'm
doing in Zettelkasten, forexample.

(46:11):
When I have a note inZettelkasten about some topic in
linked references, I may havesome vague ideas about it that I
want to incorporate.
Or some sources that may beabout that source.
They are all in the linkedreferences, so when I want to
push the note forward somehow, Iwant to upgrade it, I can just
see the linked references, picksomething and, move it, process

(46:34):
it into the body.
So I would, for myself, I wouldlook for outlining and
bidirectional links and, thespecific note taking apps are
Lockseq, RemNote, Tana, peoplelike Tana, but it is quite
complex.
I think, so maybe not for mostpeople, but Workflowy, yeah,
Workflowy is, I think, forbeginners.

(46:57):
Is very nice app provides theoutlining feature, also the
bidirectional links, but it isnot overwhelming with features,
so, If people want to start withthat, I would recommend that,
for example.

I think that's a pretty good explanation there.
Now, tell me, what aremysterious new notes?

I would translate it as Strange New
Notes.
Actually, according to Star TrekStrange New Worlds, I am writing
a newsletter called Strange NewNotes.
And, it's my newsletter.
I am publishing like, uh, twicea month, every other Saturday.
And it answers questions abouthow we can grow more efficiently

(47:48):
in professional and personallife, how we can organize stuff,
how we can build note takingsystems, how we can take notes,
basically.
So, yeah.
I published there my thoughtsthat I gathered in my
Zettelkasten system, because forquite some time I was just
writing in my system, but Iwasn't publishing anything, so I

(48:12):
needed to put a little pressureon myself.
So I decided to publish everytwo weeks, something from my
Zettelkasten, and not to createsome big article with tons of
research because before that Iwas publishing on my website,
articles about, I don't know,10, 15, 000 words, uh, with lots

(48:34):
of references and everything.
And it took me always like halfa year to write it.
So at the moment I am scaling toget it smaller, like, every
issue of the newsletter is aboutbetween 1, 000 and 2, 000 words
and focusing on one thoughtonly.
Or at least I try to focus onone message only that I want to,

(48:56):
uh, give to people.
But, one, one message only isbecause I like to go deep into
stuff.
I don't like shallow explanationon something.
So I just choose one smallthought and I write 2000 words
about it to get it to peoplesomehow with, uh, I don't know,
also stories and examples.
I love examples because I thinkthat people, uh, learn best, uh,

(49:20):
from examples.
So I use them heavily.
Yeah.
So, so.
Those are strange new notes.

Now I do subscribe to it, and it comes
through in the Czech language,but because I pay for G Suite,
it translates it into Englishfor me.
Or, if I go to your website,Google translates it into
English again.
Or, if it does come through inCzech, I just cut and paste it

(49:48):
into ChatGPT and it translatesit into English for me.
So, it's, it's not There's nolonger a problem, I don't think,
about reading people in adifferent language to ourselves.
The difficulty is finding thegood writers like that and then
figuring out how to subscribe totheir newsletters and then doing
it.

(50:08):
So language, differentlanguages, is not a barrier
anymore to good stuff.
Okay, so we've been going a fairwhile now.
Is there anything else you'dlike to say?
Uh, I know you're, you mentionedyou were going to do a little
course with Sonke Ahrens.

Yeah, we are working, it has been I think a
year or two maybe now.
We are both very perfectionistpeople.
And yeah, he was planning tocreate a course on Zettelkasten
for some time to accompany hisbook.
which is more theoretical, so tocreate an online course which

(50:45):
will be more practical andexplain how to, uh, implement
Zettelkasten digitally in aspecific app.
And I met Sonke in CzechRepublic when there was book
meeting.
So I talked to him and then I,uh, approached him after the
meeting via email and justsaying that I had some thoughts

(51:08):
on his course, if you want tolike listen to them.
And, uh, we had a call and, uh,he offered me to join him on
this course creation.
So since then we are workingtogether and it's coming
together, I would say.
So hopefully, first half of nextyear, it could be out.

(51:30):
So fingers crossed.

Yes.
Well, that's, that's one of thebig issues, uh, that we always
underestimate how long it takescreate a course or write a book
or anything like that, or to doa project.
Well, that's been fantastic.
So how would you like people toconnect with you?
I will put things in the shownotes.
So I will put your websiteaddress and how to get your

(51:54):
email newsletter.
So how would you like people toconnect with you?

Hopefully I will, uh, manage to translate my
website and my newsletter intoEnglish so people won't need to
use AI and stuff to translatethem and translate it for
themselves.
At the moment I think socialnetworks, like, uh, I'm, I'm on
Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn,Instagram, Facebook as well.
I have a page there so we canput links to notes for the show

(52:19):
and people can approach me.

I'll do that.
All right, this has beenfantastic.
So thank you very much forjoining me, Alishka.
It's been wonderful.
Thank you again.

Thank you.
Thank you, Nigel.

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