August 30, 2024 • 47 mins
Ask Nigel Rawlins a question or send feedback, click the link to text me.
In this episode of the Wisepreneurs Podcast, host Nigel Rawlins chats with Leanne Shelton, a ten-year veteran copywriter and content marketer who has transitioned into AI training. Based in Sydney, Australia, Leanne shares her shift from traditional copywriting to founding Human Edge AI Training, a company that helps businesses integrate AI while preserving the crucial human touch. The discussion explores AI’s growing impact on the creative industry, the significance of prompt engineering, and the challenge of balancing technology with human-centric values. Leanne offers invaluable advice for professionals adapting to the evolving AI landscape, highlighting the importance of continuous learning and strategic thinking.
Key Themes:
- The transition from copywriting to AI training
- The importance of balancing AI with human elements
- Overcoming the fear of AI in the workplace
- The role of prompt engineering in content creation
- The future of copywriting in the age of AI
Mentions:
- Human Edge AI Training
- ChatGPT and other generative AI tools
- Prompt engineering techniques
- AI DIY Club for practical, hands-on AI learning
- Microsoft Copilot for secure AI integration
Contact Details:
- LinkedIn: Leanne Shelton on LinkedIn
- Website: Human Edge AI
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nigel Rawlins (00:00):
It's no exaggeration to say that AI is
(00:02):
transforming how we work.
And one of the biggestchallenges we face is balancing
technology with humancreativity.
Today's episode features, LeanneShelton, who spent nearly a
decade running her contentmarketing business as a
copywriter.
Leanne recognized the growingimpact of AI on her business and
(00:22):
pivoted her career.
Cognitive agility means adaptingquickly to new information and
switching between tasks.
We discussed this in episode 58with Cedric Chin.
This skill was vital as Leannetransitioned into AI training.
Now as the founder of Human EdgeAI Training, leanne helps
businesses integrate AI whilepreserving the essential human
(00:46):
touch.
Welcome, Leanne, to theWisepreneurs podcast.
Could you tell us somethingabout yourself and where you're
from?
Leanne Shelton (00:55):
Sure, thanks, Nigel.
I'm based in Sydney, Australia.
I've had a copywriting business,copywriting slash content
marketing business, for almost10 years and I basically started
up to have flexibility around myyoung family.
I had a nine month old anddidn't want to go back to a full
time work.
And, uh, you know, but they werecramming in full time work in a
(01:15):
part time hours.
So yeah, started my businesscause writing has always been my
passion since I was a kidmyself, but then more recently
I've moved into the AI spacekind of, accidentally fallen
into it, but I'm loving it.
So, now I'm just following myway through and trying to teach
other people how to use AI withthe human touch.
So I started my business HumanEdge AI Training earlier this
(01:38):
year.
And yeah, basically the plan isto keep running workshops, and
my mission is just to ensurepeople are using that
effectively.
And not getting fearful, likegetting over that fear and just
finding the opportunities, butalso understanding the
limitations.
Nigel Rawlins (01:55):
Now that sounds really motivating.
So copywriting business for 10years, so tell us something
about that.
How did that start?
You mentioned that you had ayoung child, you didn't want to
go back to work, but whycopywriting 10 years ago?
Leanne Shelton (02:09):
So when I was on maternity leave, I became the
editor of a sports e newsletterand, um, for a community group
and I thought, Oh, okay, maybe Icould start a business.
I always knew I wanted to have abusiness just didn't know what,
and I thought, Oh, well, maybe Icould do newsletters for
businesses.
And that was actually myintention when I started and
very quickly realized that's notenough of a driver, like for
(02:34):
business owners, but I met awebsite designer and said, hey,
could you write website content?
And I thought, yeah, sure.
Why not?
So I learned all about SEO andhow to write, um, for online and
it kind of took off from there.
I also learned about blogwriting, like, Oh, I, you know,
had done freelance journalismbefore, and I thought, well,
(02:55):
okay, I can write articles andwebsite copy.
And they became my, my mainofferings and I really enjoyed
it, because I realized writingjust comes very easily to me,
but for the majority of people,especially business owners, it
often is like a weak spot forthem.
So I figured, well, I can use myskill to help others.
(03:17):
And it always felt so great whenthey'd be like, Oh, thank you,
this sounds perfect.
I could never written thismyself.
And I think about five yearsago, I started changing the
briefing process in terms ofinterviewing them on zoom and
then getting a transcript andthen literally writing from
their words.
And that made it even easier toreally capture their voice.
(03:37):
And yeah, I've really enjoyedit.
Yeah, probably about around thefive year mark, I brought on
some subcontractors.
So it wasn't just me doing allthe writing and these days I'm
just basically the projectmanager and have my team doing
the writing, but the, thecopywriting has dropped off
because of AI, which is kind ofone reason why I moved into it.
But also because this new spacelights me up so much, I've
(04:00):
probably lost a bit of passionfor the copywriting, but all
that experience now comes intowhat I'm doing because I
realized prompt engineering withAI, it's all about words and I'm
a words person.
So that's kind of where Ifigured, I'm sure there's a
space here for me, uh, to followmy way through and help other
(04:22):
people with getting the wordsright for the prompts to then
get the quality content theywant.
Nigel Rawlins (04:26):
I think you're on the ball there.
That's, that's really good.
I want to step back a little bitthere.
You mentioned about five yearsago, you started bringing on
subcontractors.
So obviously your business wasevolving, so how were you
getting clients at that point?
And what made you decide, Ican't do this all on my own.
I want to outsource some work aswell.
And how you manage it.
(04:47):
Tell us something a bit moreabout that.
Leanne Shelton (04:49):
Yeah, well, I never did any paid ads or
anything.
Uh, it was all organic, did alot of networking, um, and often
it was referrals or people camethrough my website.
Honestly, it was always very,like, I might meet someone who
then, I might do one job forthem, they refer me to someone
else, someone else, andsometimes just the pathway of
(05:10):
how I got clients was veryunique.
And what I found was, you know,I always said, because I've now
got, yeah, two daughters, um,and I'm, you know, married and,
and I'm like, okay, family lifeis important.
I didn't want to work weekends.
I didn't want to work nights.
And I just realized I reached mycapacity.
I wanted to say yes to all thework, but I literally couldn't
(05:31):
do it or do a good job.
And I had joined a onlinecopywriting community, which,
once I got over that fear ofthem being my competitor and I
realized, Oh no, we all havedifferent areas, expertise and
different niches and that'sfine.
So I actually invited some ofthose copywriters from that
community to becomesubcontractors.
(05:52):
And I have very high standards,so some didn't quite meet that.
And I found myself rewriting alot of it and it didn't really
solve the problem, but I'm nowgot, yeah, I think there's about
three or four who I useregularly.
I know, I'll maybe make, minortweaks, but I feel really
comfortable with what they'vedone.
And that's the whole point ofgetting someone to help me.
(06:13):
I don't want to be rewriting itall constantly.
And, um, yeah, so I, I projectmanage, I love doing the, the
client facing briefing, get theexcitement of what they're all
about, and then I get thattranscript, I brief my subbie,
they do a really good job, andthen I liaise with the client.
I did attempt earlier in theyear to do a copyright job
myself.
And I just.
(06:34):
realized I'm not very good withtaking feedback when I've
written it.
I take it too personally.
Cause you would know this,Nigel, you put all your heart
and soul into your writing, andif you get some sort of negative
feedback, it's very hard not totake it at heart.
So I found that having thatdistance.
It's the subcontractor notes theproject, even if I had reviewed
(06:56):
it, I'm like, yep, cool.
I take on the feedback and Ipass it on and I just keep the
project moving along smoothly.
The copywriting projects havebeen dropping off.
The conversions have been a lotharder than they used to be.
I'm an extroverted, extrovertedcopywriter, if you can't tell.
So I was always very comfortablegetting on the phone and like 80
percent of the time I convertedpeople from getting on the
(07:18):
phone.
But then I found out beginningof last year that wasn't even
working.
People would just go, Oh, look,there's ChatchPT, which is free.
Why would I pay you thousands ofdollars to do X when I can get
this thing to do it for free.
So that's part of the reason whyI went into it.
I thought, well, they're goingto be using AI anyway.
(07:38):
At least I can use mycopywriting skills to teach them
how to use it properly.
And, I have been runningtraining for about five years.
Kind of a side thing on contentmarketing topics from LinkedIn
to webinars to podcasts, to allof this blogging.
And I thought, okay, AI trainingcan be my next thing.
And.
It's yeah, obviously it's takenover everything now.
Nigel Rawlins (08:00):
Yeah, look, I think that's a fantastic
explanation.
The interesting thing you'resaying there is the copywriting
jobs are dropping off becausethey think ChatGPT will do the
job.
What do you think of that?
Leanne Shelton (08:14):
Well, this is a lack of education, I think.
And this is part of what I'mtrying to teach people.
Um, once people realize a fairbit of work goes into prompting
ChatGPT or similar to get decentoutput, a lot of people realize,
Oh, okay, it's not as simple assmashing out a one liner like
you would in a Google search.
(08:35):
And, a lot of people at firstgo, Oh, this is really good.
I can never write this.
Not realizing because they'renot looking from a copywriter's
eye, that it's actually verysurface level.
It's doesn't have the depth.
It doesn't have facts.
It doesn't have stories.
It doesn't have that humantouch.
And that's what I'm kind ofseeing.
A lot of people just pumping itout.
And I think it might take alittle while for some people to
(08:57):
realize that they're affectingtheir brand because a lot of us
can pick up on these AIterminology, words and things
that it uses.
Um, And yeah, so a lot of peopledon't even realize that they're
doing it incorrectly.
So there could be very wellwithin, I don't know, a few
months.
I've still actually had somecopyright jobs come in this last
(09:18):
couple of months too, that hadotherwise not been there earlier
in the year, people wererealizing, Oh, okay.
I actually do need to hand thisproject over to the expert.
I don't have the headspace totry and work at AI and write the
content and edit it, and I don'tknow what I'm doing.
And yeah, so it might come fullcircle and resurge of, of the
(09:38):
need for copywriters, but Ithink all copywriters as well
need to understand promptengineering because it's the way
of the future.
We can't dig our head in thesand and think, no, no, it's
okay.
They'll always want us.
Accountants are still needed andwanted, but there's accounting
software, their role haschanged.
You just have to be prepared tochange as well.
Nigel Rawlins (09:58):
I think that's a great point you've just made
there.
The people are going to have ago at doing it themselves
because they think the ChatGPTsgoing to do the work.
Many, many years ago, I workedwith a former marketing manager
from a big American company.
We worked together.
I was the marketing service guy.
He was the strategist.
We worked with a governmentorganization, that was doing
(10:20):
fabulous work.
And when we went to thisorganization, all the people in
there who are doing thespecialist roles, working with
people, wanted to do marketingwith us.
And we had to tell them all off.
We had to say, no, you help yourorganization by doing your
particular specialist area, notby sort of coming to meetings
(10:41):
and talking about marketing andneglecting your, your, your
customers, your clients.
And this is probably, what I'mthinking that you're seeing that
there's people in organizationsthat, Oh, I can do that.
I'll just use Chat GPT and, andputting out rubbish.
Okay.
Let's talk about prompting abit.
One of the interesting thingsyou said there is how you
actually tell GPT, what you wantit to do.
(11:03):
So, it's called promptengineering, but you also, I
think.
hit it on the nail too with it'show you actually prompt it.
So let's talk a little bit aboutgood prompts.
Leanne Shelton (11:16):
Yes.
So I think what a lot of peopledid, and look, I did, I'm guilty
of this too, when I first openedChatGPT the first time, a lot of
people see that message bar atthe bottom, the same way they
see a Google search bar, which Ikind of touched on before.
Uh, but it's not a matter ofjust shouting demands at it.
I want this information, give itto me.
(11:37):
I tell people to treat ChatGPTor other generative AI like an
assistant, like an intern.
Think of it as another humanthat you need to give a really
thorough brief to therefore doits best job.
Just like an intern, it cansearch the internet.
It knows how to do that, but itdoesn't know about your
(11:59):
business.
It doesn't know about yourcustomers.
It doesn't know about your brandvoice and all that kind of
stuff.
So you have to teach it.
It's been pre trained, butthere's biases involved there
and you don't know what sourcesit's used.
And if it hasn't been trained onyour business, it doesn't
understand it.
So the very, very basics I teachis about first of all, training
it up on this is what mybusiness is.
(12:19):
This is what we do.
Here are our services.
Here are all the links that youneed to know.
And here's my customer.
Or can you help me work out mycustomer based on what questions
can I answer?
And then here are some samplesof my writing.
Can you do analysis and tell mewhat my writing style is.
Now, can you always write inthis style?
And I teach this just basicgroundwork because that is going
(12:42):
to straight away in improve youroutput tenfold or maybe even
more so.
And then when you do anyprompts, you say, I treat it
like a person.
So I say things like, please.
And thank you.
I think that's very importantone for just for maintaining a
sense of humanity.
And two, I've actually heardthat because it's trained up to
(13:02):
be human, like in its responses,humans respond better to
manners, so get in the habit.
I have seen AI people,enthusiasts who just go, write
me this, shouting demands.
I say, today we're going to workon this together, could you
please, I just, I'm just kind.
Um, but yeah, so I, you thinkabout this way, if you had an
(13:23):
internist next to you, knowsnothing about your business,
would you say, hey, can you gowrite me this article on this
topic?
They'll be like, okay, they're apaper pleaser, like ChatGPT will
say yes, but then it'll comeback and the draft is rubbish
and they have to go redo it andredo it and you get all
frustrated.
Same thing can happen withChatGPT.
So what you're going to do issay, okay, pretend I'm sitting
(13:44):
down with a person.
How much information would theyneed to do a proper job first
go?
And it will never be perfectbecause they're still learning.
Just like ChatGPT is like ababy.
Um, but you would say, okay,here's everything I know about
this topic.
Here are the sources I want youto use.
Make sure you're using thisbrand voice, blah, blah, blah.
(14:06):
Do you need anything else fromme?
Is there anything unclear?
And this is then you have a bitof a conversation and quite
often you don't realize ifyou've been vague, until you get
the output and realize, Oh,that's not what I wanted.
Okay.
I haven't been clear enough.
And then you go to the nextstep.
So you can't say prompts, as thesame thing as maths equations,
(14:28):
there is no exact prompt.
And you know, I bought one ofthose thousand prompt guides for
$57 when I started, there are noexact prompts.
It all comes down to context,comes down to your business.
If you just speak to it, causethere is actually an option to a
microphone option too.
If you speak or write to it asthough you're speaking to an
(14:48):
intern, you're going to get somuch better, uh, output, then if
you just said, go write me this,
Nigel Rawlins (14:56):
Now that is wonderful.
Basically, you're saying you canhave a conversation with your
ChatGPT to get to the pointwhere you can then ask it to do
an output.
And yes, um, having good mannersis also important.
So having had 10 years in theindustry of copywriting, now one
of the guests, Cedric Chin onepisode 58, writes about tacit
(15:20):
knowledge and getting that tacitknowledge out of people's heads,
now there is a system he talksabout to get that knowledge.
Now, if you've been incopywriting for 10 years and
obviously, were you a journalistbefore that?
Leanne Shelton (15:34):
I've done freelance journalism.
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (15:36):
So you've also got that tacit knowledge of how
to create good writing.
And when it comes tocopywriting, where you're being
paid to create a particularoutput for a brand or a business
or an organization, you've gotan awful lot of tacit knowledge
that you're putting into yourprompts.
Now, the normal everyday personwho's working in a job and said,
(15:57):
yeah, I'm going to use ChatGPTwon't have any of that
knowledge.
So you're teaching, it sounds,like here are some of the things
that I know through myexperience and then putting it
into prompts.
So you're running sessions.
Where and how do you teachpeople?
Leanne Shelton (16:12):
Yeah, so I have a few different offerings.
I run workshops, so for teams,uh, especially when you've got
the innovators in the teams andthose who haven't even touched
it and get everyone on the samepage.
My focus is on marketing teams,I can branch out if you really
want your team to get somesupport.
Um, and I also do like one onones if anyone just, If whether
(16:33):
you're just a business owner onyour own, uh, and really help
you understand how to train itup and be specific with examples
of projects that you want towork on.
And then I also have the AI DIYClub, which is a membership and
we experiment and explore withprompts every week online.
We have a different theme everymonth.
So right now we're working onwebinars as our theme.
(16:56):
So looking at AI tools, lookingat our prompts for script
writing and everything likethat.
And I'm big on getting yourhands dirty.
I don't just run sessions whereyou just go smile and nod.
Yeah, that sounds good.
I'll now find time andexperiment.
I always get people toexperiment with prompts then and
there and see its capabilities,understand the limitations,
(17:19):
because it may not give you theword count you wanted because
maybe it's repeating itselfbecause there's not enough
content based on what's beentrained on.
Or you might realize, no, I knowa lot more on this topic than it
does.
And so then you challenge it alittle bit.
So that's the thing you shoulduse it as a tool, bring all your
(17:40):
skills and expertise to thetable.
So as a copywriter, I have like,this is why I can do really good
marketing projects and contentwith it.
Cause I know what good qualitycontent and strategies look
like.
So when it gives me rubbish.
I can go, no, and then I'll kindof say a bit more like this, or
(18:01):
when it's good, I'll recognizegoing, Oh, I can see from past
experiences, yeah, that couldwork really well.
Oh, that sounds really good.
So whatever industry you're in,you can bring that to the table
and then say, okay, help me withthis project.
So say you're in customerservice, you know what a good
email should look like.
(18:22):
It will give you something yougo, no, actually I want a bit
more of this conversationalfeel, I want a bit more of this
nurturing or, um, problemsolving, or I want this to be
the outcome.
You know, what a good customerservice call, how that would end
up.
So you kind of want to workbackwards.
So there's a lot of strategyinvolved with it that a lot of
people don't realize that it'slike, Oh yeah, bit of that
(18:44):
laziness go, Oh, we're notlaziness.
I think it's just like aknowledge just going, Oh yeah,
cool.
Oh, they gave me this.
Great.
Um, and I think part of myfrustration is I have heard of
at least two examples ofcompanies firing their
copywriting teams, thinking, youI don't know who, maybe their
admin assistant can just pumpout the blogs or the website
(19:04):
content or whatever, or emails,but they don't know all that
background knowledge.
They don't know what makes agood email, what makes a good
article.
So they may end up rehiringthose people down the track.
Nigel Rawlins (19:17):
Oh, I think they will.
I think it will spin backbecause once this is mainstream
and people are realizing, well,it does take work, um, and
they're neglecting their duties.
Just like I mentioned about thisorganization we went into that,
All the staff in there thoughtit was going to be sexy to do
marketing.
And we're saying, no, get backto your jobs and look after your
clients.
(19:37):
You know, you're paying us to dothis and we're good at what we
do.
And it's going to take us onefifth the time it's going to
take you even to get to themeeting.
And then they'll have themeeting and never, they'll just
end up having meetings.
I think it will spin back, but Ithink it will spin back to the
people who are very au fait withusing ChatGPT or AI, plus having
(20:01):
a depth of knowledge like youhave in terms of your
copywriting and knowing what'sgood copy, because I'm assuming
that when you're doing yourbriefings, you're seeking out
quite a lot of information thatif they're a novice, they don't
even know that that's important.
So let's go back a little bit toyour briefing, your briefing
skills when you were doing yourcopywriting.
(20:22):
Do you use some of those skillswhen you're teaching a group
about using prompts?
Because I'm assuming that fitsreally well.
Leanne Shelton (20:32):
Yeah.
Cause a lot of the things that Ineed to find out from a client,
it's the type of stuff you needto plug into ChatGPT.
So it's all about really gettinga thorough understanding of who
you're speaking to, why is thisproject important?
The brand voice, like I said,cause that's what makes you more
unique and not sound like everyother person out there.
Yeah, a lot of that is exactlywhat I would ask in my, my
(20:54):
briefings.
And that's now what I'm askingmyself to therefore put it into
ChatGPT.
And I have used, you know, AIto, to write some content for
clients.
Some get a bit, Oh, Oh, hang onyour AI training.
Oh, are you just going to useAI?
Honestly, yes, I will use it,but I know how to use it and
ensure that it's supporting thecontent.
(21:15):
It's not going to make it soundreally robotic and generalized.
I know the techniques to make itsupport me.
So you don't question the, thegraphic designer who uses
InDesign, Photoshop or Canva andyou don't question the
accountant who uses QuickBooksXero or calculator, basically
now ChatGPT can be seen as atool that copywriters can now
(21:37):
use to enhance what they alreadyknow.
And this is where I get a bitconcerned about, yeah, people
being replaced, that's a bit offear mongering that's still
happening.
Media jobs being replaced.
I think it's actually a matterof upskilling right now and
understanding how this tool canbe used for your role.
My husband works in sales and inthe trades industry.
(21:58):
He's like, I don't think AI isrelated to me cause it's the
online space.
But he came to me to edit a coldemail.
I said, okay, let's use this asa training exercise.
Let's teach up on your company.
Now let's put in your draftemail and ask it to improve on
it.
And he's like, Oh, I get it nowbecause the whole training
(22:20):
process he'd never realized.
He thought it was purely, it's aone way communication.
Like I'm just spitting out, justgiving it demands, spitting it
out and that's it.
No, it's actually workingtogether with it.
A lot of people don't realizethe potential.
Nigel Rawlins (22:34):
That is a very important point.
Because they think, yeah,they're right.
There's putting in a prompt.
Yeah, that'll do.
Not realising, hey, how wouldthis improve or ask some
questions about it?
Well, how would this appear?
I mean, is this nice enough or,um, I'll be honest.
I wrote a letter to thepolitician the other day and I
asked it to be assertive, butpolite and respectful, uh, and
(22:58):
to use this source information.
And the output was amazing.
I thought, that's an almost anacademic level because it was an
important topic that I wanted towrite about.
And I was stunned.
I mean, I still have to edit it,uh, which is an important part,
but yeah, the output, if, if youask the right questions and feed
(23:18):
it, the right stuff is reallyimportant.
So I can, I can really see thebenefit for what you're doing
there, especially have, I think,coming from that copywriting
background and a marketingbackground and, yeah, I think
you're in the right business.
Leanne Shelton (23:30):
I mean, there's a lot of AI people who have got
a real technical or ITbackground and I don't come from
that.
So therefore I don't talk thejargon.
I still keep saying examplesinstead of use cases.
I still stumble over whatChatGPT stands for.
And so I think this is one ofthe reasons why I've connected
so well with my audiences,because I can speak at their,
(23:52):
their level.
I can speak their terms.
Um, I can kind of tell as wellfrom body language of concepts
going over their head and take afew steps back and, and just
explain it or just say, look,you don't need to worry about
that technical stuff.
All you need to know is this.
And I think that's, that's whatalso puts me apart.
I'm, you know, I get people whoactually, like I was saying
before, experiment with it andreally understand how it's
(24:13):
relevant to them.
Um, I, look, I took sometheoretical stuff, like,
overcoming your fears becauseit's, AI is going to become like
electricity.
Believe it or not.
It's going to be embedded in ourday to day lives.
So you've got to get on boardwith it.
I talk about some of thattheoretical stuff, but really
it's just about making peoplefeel comfortable with
experimenting and realize it'snot so scary and you don't have
(24:36):
to use it all the time.
Um, I'm not saying stop, youknow, thinking for yourself, not
at all.
And what I was saying before,like I'm actually thinking
differently and I know there'salso the fear with students and
writing essays with AI and allof that.
But what I reckon will end uphappening, just like with your
maths or science equations andformulas, you have to show your
(24:59):
working out.
That might be a way of thefuture.
Here's my essay.
Here's my working out, here aremy prompts.
Here's my reasoning for thoseprompts.
Here's the output.
Here's how I changed it.
And that's going to be where thehuman will come into it.
We're going to keep beingcritical and keep looking at it.
Um, and there's some AI tools Idid not agree with because they
(25:20):
take that human part away.
Like AI for sales, cold callsales.
I'm like, I don't even like ahuman calling me.
Why would I want a bot callingme?
And I think that's a trap a lotof people get into, the shiny
object, seeing how it benefitsthem.
But if you're doing it for likebusiness purposes or, you know,
you got to think about how it'sgoing to be received.
(25:41):
And that's, I think a missingpiece all the time.
Nigel Rawlins (25:44):
I think you're right there.
I do read quite a bit of stuff.
I don't like reading a lot ofbusiness books because I find
them really, really boring.
But one of the issues I see outthere is to be able to
communicate well with ChatGPT.
It's good to have a more of ageneralist education, or an arts
(26:04):
education, or to enjoyliterature, than having a
business background.
So, I know that sounds a bitstrange, because we're talking
about business here.
But if you've got a moregeneralist, uh, view of things,
you'll probably be able to writemore human like prompts to get
that human like outcome.
What do you think of that?
Leanne Shelton (26:25):
I actually read something similar about that.
You know, don't get them tostudy medicine.
Like I, it was actually, I thinkpretty sure that's what the
article is saying.
Don't send them to thesespecific things because.
In the future, AI is going toplay such a major part in
medicine.
Doctors might be just there justso people feel like there's a
human in the room.
You know, you're better offsending them to do literature,
(26:48):
philosophy all the subjects thatmake you think, not memorize
stuff because AI is going to beable to memorize, memorize stuff
for you.
You don't need to have that.
I mean, even you go to the GPnow, I said, I've got the
symptoms.
They're going, Oh, let me justlook up in the system.
So even now they're not going,or most of them off the top of
their head, you've got this.
(27:09):
They're going, let me justconsult.
So.
I think it's so important aboutthinking for ourselves and this
is where I get very passionateand riled up sometimes because I
can see so many people usingChatGPT to write their, you
know, social media posts or thecomments to replies to comments
and like, how is this servingyou?
(27:30):
Like, are you even, are you evenjust, it may even be automating
that process itself.
I've spoken to people who dothat and they're so proud of
themselves.
Oh yeah, I had this AI tool thatreads all the posts on my feed
and it automatically comes upwith comments to respond.
And then I just do a quick lookand then it posts it out.
What is the point of that?
Like, isn't social media aboutthe human connection?
(27:53):
So there's a lot of this, andlook, I'll probably die down
because it's still very freshand new and exciting.
And look what I can do with thisthing.
It's so cool.
But I think thinking foryourself and going, okay, what
do I actually want right now?
What?
Do I want to achieve with thisproject?
What is the point?
And then thinking backwards,that's going to keep us, you
(28:15):
know, the human side, or I don'tmind if you write some notes and
then you get it to, you know,like submit that letter to the,
you know, the politician, you'vegot the initial thoughts and
then you get it to help clean itup and just get that clarity or
remove the emotion if you'redealing with a difficult
customer via email or, you know,big complaint and you're too
close to it.
(28:36):
Get AI to help you do that stuffso you can move on with your
day.
I totally believe it all gettingover the white screen of death.
You procrastinate so long, butyou need to get this thing done.
It can remove that barrier toentry and get you started.
So you're not wasting yourcreative energy on getting
started.
You can then get started.
Now I can put all that effortinto building upon it.
(28:57):
So, yeah, that's, that's where Ithink it needs to be used.
But a lot of people don'trealize like, Oh, look, it's, I
can just cut corners.
The word productivity is thrownaround a lot and I think, yes,
it will help you be moreproductive.
But a project that took you aweek.
Don't expect it to take fiveminutes with AI, it may take you
a day instead.
Still will save you time, butyou need to be realistic with
(29:20):
how much time it's going to saveyou.
Nigel Rawlins (29:22):
Yeah, I think that's really important too,
because the issue there iscognitive overload, or the
cognitive demands of having todo something.
But if you've got a sense of howyou can work with AI, or
ChatGPT, I think you can work,um, augment, I guess is probably
(29:43):
the better word, augmentyourself to, not only just be
more creative, but be able to bemore, uh, a better communicator.
One, one of the people I I readon Twitter, actually I see him,
and sometimes I think I see himon LinkedIn, is Ethan Mollick.
He, he talks about, cyborgs andcentaurs.
If you came across that, uh, acyborg is using AI all the time,
(30:05):
so that's a person.
For me, because I do a lot ofmarketing work and I do a lot of
website work with WordPress.
And so I'm saying how do Iconfigure my Google analytics
and how do I get it to reportthis?
Um, I'm in and out of AI, notjust for writing.
Uh, I do a lot of writing, butgee, I don't just use ChatGPT
(30:28):
for just that.
So that's a cyborg.
And then Ethan Mullick alsotalks about centaurs.
Now that's the half horse, halfman.
So what he means by that is thatwhere appropriate, you'll use
AI, but not all the time.
Leanne Shelton (30:45):
Yeah.
And I think that's, that's whatI do.
I know there's some AIenthusiasts who go, Oh, I use
AI, this for my emails and thisfor this, and this for this.
And, and it, it runs my life.
And I'm like.
Nah, I prefer to be stillmanaging my emails because I
just don't trust it toaccidentally delete something or
I don't know.
I don't have everything in mybusiness automated, although
(31:06):
everyone keeps, that's abuzzword, automation.
Look, most of the time I'm usingit for my training, to be
honest.
It could be in terms of help mecome up with workshop plans.
And I'm like, I know I want tocover these topics and these
topics and have a game afterlunch or whatever.
It's a full day one.
Give me a plan.
Great.
I'll play around with it.
Help me for my club, I'm goingto talk about this, can you just
write me a five minute scriptjust to kind of introduce the
(31:28):
topic just so I can move on withthat, the prompt stuff and the,
and I'm an AI trainer.
I don't use it all the time.
It's not embedded in my world.
I'm just using it to support mewhen I need it.
When, even like, there's stillsome times I ask my husband a
question, he's like, can't youjust ask ChatGPT for that?
It still doesn't occur to me,um, all the time to go to
ChatGPT and get me to, you know,tell me how to fix the printer.
(31:51):
But yeah, that's, that's thething.
I think we still need to keepour sense of humanity.
And that's, you know, onceagain, why I call my business
Human Edge.
I want us to keep the humanity.
I don't want us to all turn torobots.
You know, forget how to think.
I think of the movie WALL-E.
I don't know if you've seenthat, that cute cartoon, but you
know, humans are just sitting inthese little vehicles and not
(32:12):
even looking at the outsideworld.
Just it's telling them what towear and what to eat and not
even thinking.
I don't want us to turn intothat.
I think so many people are like,that's cool, it can do this for
us and do this.
But why isn't a sense ofhumanity, like what sets us
apart?
I don't want anyone to losethat.
Just go, okay, there are someways that I can support me and
(32:35):
there's some ways that it'sreally onto you.
Nigel Rawlins (32:38):
Well, this is the thing about when I talk about
independent professionals, theseare the professionals who are
working for themselves at home.
I mean, the reason, hopefully,that they're working for
themselves is they're stillpretty excited about their, um,
their area of expertise.
And now we're talking about,well, bring in some AI to to
augment or to help you with yourthinking, helping with your
(33:00):
writing and with your socialmedia, because you can use it
for everything.
You know, the point you'remaking is the prompts have got
to be, uh, good human likeprompts.
So what advice would you giveto, say, an independent
professional who's probablyolder?
I don't know about you, butbecause I'm well, I am a baby
(33:21):
boomer and I'm a bit older.
We didn't have phones when I wasa kid.
I don't even know if we had atelephone in the house.
The TV was black and white.
So people my age, um, now I'mprobably a bit technical, but I
do hire specialists do stuff if,if I can't figure it out, but
people who've been happilyworking away in their business
(33:42):
and getting work as anindependent professional, cause
they're an expert in their job,where do you suggest they
actually begin?
With, um, ChatGPT or AI.
Leanne Shelton (33:51):
Yeah.
It's a great question.
So look, I actually, in my club,there's a couple of regulars who
are similar age to you, Nigel,so it's okay.
And I think that's part of thereason I speak very non
technical and anyone who didn'tknow technology, they can
understand my explanations andthings.
But what I I'd say is first ofall, don't get overwhelmed with
all the AI talk of all thedifferent tools and all the
(34:14):
different things.
I say, just start with ChatGPTbecause if you can work out that
and the basics, and if you docommit to paying for it, it is
worth it, it's 20 US a month.
Which, it depends on exchange.
It's around 30 Australian.
It's worth it because you getthings like, can do the image
creation.
There'll soon be the text tovideo.
(34:34):
Other features will be comingmore to it, so you don't have to
go to all the other tools.
But what I'd say in terms ofgetting started, first of all,
get an account.
Second of all, think of aproject that you're working on
right now.
It could just be an email thatyou need to send out, or an e
newsletter you want to create oran article you want to write.
Just think about somethingthat's relevant to what you're
(34:56):
doing right now.
Don't think about, you know, thepie in the sky to-do list that
you've always wanted to start,you know, always wanted to write
that book.
Don't go there yet.
Start with something that you'dbe doing later today.
And you know, you have to writethat email.
And so just think about what'sthe idea of the email, what's
the point of it?
Is it a responding to someone?
(35:16):
Is it an outreach?
Think about all that kind ofstuff.
And this is purely without eventraining it up, just experiment
with then what it gives you.
So say write this email for me,it's to this person, this is who
they are, give some background.
You can say write in aprofessional tone.
And then say now rewrite in aprofessional and conversational
(35:37):
tone and see how it changes.
And then say like professional,conversational and quirky, and
then see how that changes.
And then you'll start to get afeel for how the prompts that
you put in affects the output.
It's the same thing as you say,this is for a woman, a 20 year
old woman.
It will write a certain way.
If you say it's for a 50 yearold man, it will write a
(35:59):
different way.
So all this stuff is veryimportant.
So I would just say initially tostart experimenting with it, the
next step would be to train itup and properly understand, you
know, your role and your companyand the audience and all that.
That's the next step.
I can help you with that.
Just to begin with, just seewhat it does.
(36:20):
And then put a critical eye overwhat it spits out and think,
okay, what's missing here, whathuman aspect could I add to
this?
Um, You know, I still see foremails, I hope this email finds
you well.
I don't think many people writethat now.
It's, it's caught up in thatbecause obviously they won't be
reading it if it, they didn'tget it., but yeah, just have a
(36:42):
think, have a little play aroundwith it, or even if it's non
business related, get it to helpyou write a travel, agenda for
you, a plan for the weekend withthe grandkids, with your own
kids, with whatever.
Or you want to go on a holidayto a certain location, get it to
suggest different locations tovisit on a 10 day trip, and then
you'll just start to realizewhat it can do, but also what it
(37:05):
can't do.
So yeah, just don't get scared.
Just play around.
Nigel Rawlins (37:08):
I think that's a great idea.
I actually went to Vietnam lastyear and, uh, the doctor
prescribed a whole range ofstuff.
So I listed it all out and said,what would I use this stuff for?
And it gave me a list.
Um, yeah.
So it's, it, it is an amazinglittle tool.
And I think that's fantasticwhat you just said.
Just start off by playing withit and, and see what responses
(37:30):
you get.
Would you suggest that they doany of the online training?
And, and that's a bit of aloaded one because I've done a
few and I want to say somethingabout it, but, um, are there any
good online trainings or placesthey can go?
I mean, obviously, um, if, ifyou're doing a corporate
training, it would be good forthem to go to that, but if, if
(37:51):
they're at home and they'rethinking, oh, well, where can I
learn a bit more about it?
What would you suggest they do?
Leanne Shelton (37:57):
Yeah.
The AI club would come in forsure, cause it's a low cost
every month and it's uh, I'mtoying, whether it's a two hour
or one hour every week, I'vebeen doing two hours of just
experimenting with differentprompts with a different theme
every month.
Someone once said to me, whyshould you even bother doing
training when there's so manyYouTube videos out there for
free?
And I think it's because it'speople want to be able to ask
(38:19):
the questions and be able toexperiment in the safe space and
just say, I've done this, what'swrong with it?
Like, how can I fix this?
Or I've got this project.
Can you give me some tips onthat?
You don't get that from justwatching, watching videos.
And there's lots of courses aswell.
Some are, um, you know, cheaperthan others.
(38:40):
Some are really expensive.
Uh, you need to be aware aboutthe technical aspects of them,
how technical they're going tobe.
And that's why, if you want toget your hands dirty, really
just experiment in a safe,supportive space.
And that's where my club comesin.
We have a Q and A session aswell, as well as an AI playtime
session.
And those that are in it,they're loving it.
(39:00):
They're just learning so muchjust from doing this stuff.
One, one member, Margaret, forexample, we were doing award
writing and the grant writinglast month.
And she's like, I'm still goingto turn up because I'm not
writing any of that stuff, but Ialways learn something new.
And sure enough, there was someprompts that things just like,
talked like you're talking to afriend, just a random little
(39:23):
thing that popped up that wastotally unrelated to the topic,
but she still learned from beingthere.
And yes, everyone's reallyenjoying that.
So it comes down to, I guess,your style of learning.
If you do like to really learnby doing, which I think a lot of
people do, Then you'll probablyfind the club really helpful.
And then if you need a one onone, then obviously I can go
that next level too.
That's all online.
Nigel Rawlins (39:43):
Now that sounds actually lovely.
I've done four courses now.
One I did with some guru that Iread on Twitter and I must admit
it cost me a lot in Americandollars and the thing was
rubbish.
Then I did a cheaper one with aNew Zealand guy who lives in
Vietnam.
I did two of his ones which Ithought were a lot more
(40:04):
practical.
And they weren't too expensive.
And then I've done a fourth onenow, which has blown my mind,
but had I not done some of theseother ones, I would never have
understood this fourth one,which is a lot more technical.
But I agree.
I think an interactive, likeyou're discussing, is probably a
great introduction.
I would actually recommend thatover any of those courses that
(40:26):
I've done.
Leanne Shelton (40:28):
Cause were they all just watching recorded
videos and then, or was thereany live elements to it.
Nigel Rawlins (40:33):
They were all recorded.
So the first just like lecturingme and it was poorly put
together.
Obviously the person rushed intothe space.
They obviously had a really bigfollowing and that, that's a
benefit of being in business.
If you've got a big email listor a big followership, you can
sell them stuff.
And, and, you know, if you onlyget a hundred out of your
thousand people come through,you can make money.
(40:53):
And that's what that personobviously did.
So it was pretty, prettyordinary to start with.
Leanne Shelton (40:59):
Yeah.
I've seen a bit of happeningtoo.
I went to one of those free orlow cost, I think actually maybe
I paid 50 bucks for it, one dayevent from a well known business
entrepreneur and coach orwhatever.
And he was basically justpitching his bootcamp and just
kind of throwing in AI.
Like here's some stuff, somecool things, my team told me
(41:20):
about AI, but ultimately he wasall pushing into his bootcamp,
which all now we're doing AI.
And it was very much jumpingonto the AI bandwagon.
And I'm like, Oh, no cringe.
So I, look how I learned aboutAI, I listened to some different
podcasts.
I don't even remember which onesnow, cause I stopped listening,
but, just look up AI in terms ofpodcasts.
I had one for a few monthscalled the AI Train and then
(41:41):
kind of fizzled out.
But yeah, podcasts are reallygood, especially the ones with
updates, because then you canjust, yeah, really get a quick
update on what's going on.
And also, for me, followingpeople on LinkedIn that are in
the AI space, quite often thosebite sized, um, tips that they
offer, including myself, I'mpretty active there too, that's
how I'm doing most of mylearning now.
(42:02):
I would just even start withthat.
And then you could, you know,once you put up the trust with
them, invest in the courses andwhatever, but yeah, I'm, I'm
working on it at the moment.
I think some sort of a coursethat would include.
A live Q and a every week.
So you might do it over sixweeks pre recorded, but I'll
always be there live to answerquestions.
(42:23):
Cause that's the thing I just,and a lot of people purchase
these courses and never actuallywatch as well or actually
implement.
And I'm so big on, I want you tolearn something.
I want you to have those ahamoments.
So yeah, that's where I'd start.
Just listen to, listen topodcasts or following on
LinkedIn, some AI people, andthen, then you could probably go
for the course option.
(42:43):
But yeah, all of the club, theclub's good too.
Nigel Rawlins (42:46):
I agree.
Do not rush into a paid course,but yes, I would explore your
one because it is going to be alive session and they can ask
questions rather than a prerecorded one.
I've spent hundreds of dollarsand unfortunately they're all in
American dollars, so it costs alot more for Australians.
But yeah, you're right.
Though, I must admit the fourthone I've done, has certainly
(43:06):
stretched my thinking about itall and how I use it.
But yeah, I like that advice.
Okay, so at this point we'veprobably covered everything,
haven't we?
Is there anything else that youcan think of that we need to
cover here?
Leanne Shelton (43:19):
I think just in general, just don't be fearful
of it.
I think there's still a lot offear around, you know, yeah,
like I said before, it's AIreplacing your jobs or, or it's
just too scary or I just don'tknow how to get started.
I think don't, don't getyourself all worked up.
Look, I don't think jobs will bereplaced if the bosses are in
(43:40):
the right mindset.
I think unfortunately it's a bitof a self fulfilling prophecy.
We're hearing about jobs beingreplaced, so therefore managers
think jobs can be replaced.
I would just, yeah, just exploreit.
And invest in the paid versionof ChatGPT, just cause the
output is better.
You don't use up tokens withinan hour of using it and you've
got the whole day ahead of you.
I think, yeah, that's probablythe main thing.
(44:00):
And when it comes to security,there are tools around that now,
I know Microsoft's Copilot has,uh, some sort of option to keep
it private.
ChatGPT has a temporary chat tokeep it private.
And just met someone the otherday, they actually provide
platforms that are purely,purely private.
It has been pre trained.
It's not accessible to anyoneelse except your company.
(44:22):
So I'll be exploring that andmaybe being an affiliate for
that.
But I think that's the mainthing.
Just don't, don't be fearful.
It is still only a baby.
So just remember that it's notgoing to be great quality.
It may seem really great at thesurface, but when you deep dive
into it, it's still a long wayto go and it definitely needs
the humans to run it.
(44:43):
It cannot run itself.
Nigel Rawlins (44:45):
Perfectly said.
So, thank you, Leanne.
How would you like people tofind you or connect with you?
Leanne Shelton (44:52):
Yep.
So you can find me on LinkedIn,just look for Leanne Shelton.
You'll see my profile at themoment is I'm wearing a robotic
outfit from a nap cord photoleap.
And yeah, also my website ishumanedgeai.
com.
So you can check that out andfind out more about the AI DIY
Club and my other services.
But yeah, LinkedIn is where Ihang out.
(45:12):
So that's, that's probably agood place to connect with me.
Nigel Rawlins (45:15):
Oh, that's fantastic.
So thank you very much Leanne,for joining me.
Leanne Shelton (45:17):
Thanks, Nigel.
It's been great.
It's no exaggeration to say that AI is
(00:02):
transforming how we work.
And one of the biggestchallenges we face is balancing
technology with humancreativity.
Today's episode features, LeanneShelton, who spent nearly a
decade running her contentmarketing business as a
copywriter.
Leanne recognized the growingimpact of AI on her business and
(00:22):
pivoted her career.
Cognitive agility means adaptingquickly to new information and
switching between tasks.
We discussed this in episode 58with Cedric Chin.
This skill was vital as Leannetransitioned into AI training.
Now as the founder of Human EdgeAI Training, leanne helps
businesses integrate AI whilepreserving the essential human
(00:46):
touch.
Welcome, Leanne, to theWisepreneurs podcast.
Could you tell us somethingabout yourself and where you're
from?
Leanne Shelton (00:55):
Sure, thanks, Nigel.
I'm based in Sydney, Australia.
I've had a copywriting business,copywriting slash content
marketing business, for almost10 years and I basically started
up to have flexibility around myyoung family.
I had a nine month old anddidn't want to go back to a full
time work.
And, uh, you know, but they werecramming in full time work in a
(01:15):
part time hours.
So yeah, started my businesscause writing has always been my
passion since I was a kidmyself, but then more recently
I've moved into the AI spacekind of, accidentally fallen
into it, but I'm loving it.
So, now I'm just following myway through and trying to teach
other people how to use AI withthe human touch.
So I started my business HumanEdge AI Training earlier this
(01:38):
year.
And yeah, basically the plan isto keep running workshops, and
my mission is just to ensurepeople are using that
effectively.
And not getting fearful, likegetting over that fear and just
finding the opportunities, butalso understanding the
limitations.
Nigel Rawlins (01:55):
Now that sounds really motivating.
So copywriting business for 10years, so tell us something
about that.
How did that start?
You mentioned that you had ayoung child, you didn't want to
go back to work, but whycopywriting 10 years ago?
Leanne Shelton (02:09):
So when I was on maternity leave, I became the
editor of a sports e newsletterand, um, for a community group
and I thought, Oh, okay, maybe Icould start a business.
I always knew I wanted to have abusiness just didn't know what,
and I thought, Oh, well, maybe Icould do newsletters for
businesses.
And that was actually myintention when I started and
very quickly realized that's notenough of a driver, like for
(02:34):
business owners, but I met awebsite designer and said, hey,
could you write website content?
And I thought, yeah, sure.
Why not?
So I learned all about SEO andhow to write, um, for online and
it kind of took off from there.
I also learned about blogwriting, like, Oh, I, you know,
had done freelance journalismbefore, and I thought, well,
(02:55):
okay, I can write articles andwebsite copy.
And they became my, my mainofferings and I really enjoyed
it, because I realized writingjust comes very easily to me,
but for the majority of people,especially business owners, it
often is like a weak spot forthem.
So I figured, well, I can use myskill to help others.
(03:17):
And it always felt so great whenthey'd be like, Oh, thank you,
this sounds perfect.
I could never written thismyself.
And I think about five yearsago, I started changing the
briefing process in terms ofinterviewing them on zoom and
then getting a transcript andthen literally writing from
their words.
And that made it even easier toreally capture their voice.
(03:37):
And yeah, I've really enjoyedit.
Yeah, probably about around thefive year mark, I brought on
some subcontractors.
So it wasn't just me doing allthe writing and these days I'm
just basically the projectmanager and have my team doing
the writing, but the, thecopywriting has dropped off
because of AI, which is kind ofone reason why I moved into it.
But also because this new spacelights me up so much, I've
(04:00):
probably lost a bit of passionfor the copywriting, but all
that experience now comes intowhat I'm doing because I
realized prompt engineering withAI, it's all about words and I'm
a words person.
So that's kind of where Ifigured, I'm sure there's a
space here for me, uh, to followmy way through and help other
(04:22):
people with getting the wordsright for the prompts to then
get the quality content theywant.
Nigel Rawlins (04:26):
I think you're on the ball there.
That's, that's really good.
I want to step back a little bitthere.
You mentioned about five yearsago, you started bringing on
subcontractors.
So obviously your business wasevolving, so how were you
getting clients at that point?
And what made you decide, Ican't do this all on my own.
I want to outsource some work aswell.
And how you manage it.
(04:47):
Tell us something a bit moreabout that.
Leanne Shelton (04:49):
Yeah, well, I never did any paid ads or
anything.
Uh, it was all organic, did alot of networking, um, and often
it was referrals or people camethrough my website.
Honestly, it was always very,like, I might meet someone who
then, I might do one job forthem, they refer me to someone
else, someone else, andsometimes just the pathway of
(05:10):
how I got clients was veryunique.
And what I found was, you know,I always said, because I've now
got, yeah, two daughters, um,and I'm, you know, married and,
and I'm like, okay, family lifeis important.
I didn't want to work weekends.
I didn't want to work nights.
And I just realized I reached mycapacity.
I wanted to say yes to all thework, but I literally couldn't
(05:31):
do it or do a good job.
And I had joined a onlinecopywriting community, which,
once I got over that fear ofthem being my competitor and I
realized, Oh no, we all havedifferent areas, expertise and
different niches and that'sfine.
So I actually invited some ofthose copywriters from that
community to becomesubcontractors.
(05:52):
And I have very high standards,so some didn't quite meet that.
And I found myself rewriting alot of it and it didn't really
solve the problem, but I'm nowgot, yeah, I think there's about
three or four who I useregularly.
I know, I'll maybe make, minortweaks, but I feel really
comfortable with what they'vedone.
And that's the whole point ofgetting someone to help me.
(06:13):
I don't want to be rewriting itall constantly.
And, um, yeah, so I, I projectmanage, I love doing the, the
client facing briefing, get theexcitement of what they're all
about, and then I get thattranscript, I brief my subbie,
they do a really good job, andthen I liaise with the client.
I did attempt earlier in theyear to do a copyright job
myself.
And I just.
(06:34):
realized I'm not very good withtaking feedback when I've
written it.
I take it too personally.
Cause you would know this,Nigel, you put all your heart
and soul into your writing, andif you get some sort of negative
feedback, it's very hard not totake it at heart.
So I found that having thatdistance.
It's the subcontractor notes theproject, even if I had reviewed
(06:56):
it, I'm like, yep, cool.
I take on the feedback and Ipass it on and I just keep the
project moving along smoothly.
The copywriting projects havebeen dropping off.
The conversions have been a lotharder than they used to be.
I'm an extroverted, extrovertedcopywriter, if you can't tell.
So I was always very comfortablegetting on the phone and like 80
percent of the time I convertedpeople from getting on the
(07:18):
phone.
But then I found out beginningof last year that wasn't even
working.
People would just go, Oh, look,there's ChatchPT, which is free.
Why would I pay you thousands ofdollars to do X when I can get
this thing to do it for free.
So that's part of the reason whyI went into it.
I thought, well, they're goingto be using AI anyway.
(07:38):
At least I can use mycopywriting skills to teach them
how to use it properly.
And, I have been runningtraining for about five years.
Kind of a side thing on contentmarketing topics from LinkedIn
to webinars to podcasts, to allof this blogging.
And I thought, okay, AI trainingcan be my next thing.
And.
It's yeah, obviously it's takenover everything now.
Nigel Rawlins (08:00):
Yeah, look, I think that's a fantastic
explanation.
The interesting thing you'resaying there is the copywriting
jobs are dropping off becausethey think ChatGPT will do the
job.
What do you think of that?
Leanne Shelton (08:14):
Well, this is a lack of education, I think.
And this is part of what I'mtrying to teach people.
Um, once people realize a fairbit of work goes into prompting
ChatGPT or similar to get decentoutput, a lot of people realize,
Oh, okay, it's not as simple assmashing out a one liner like
you would in a Google search.
(08:35):
And, a lot of people at firstgo, Oh, this is really good.
I can never write this.
Not realizing because they'renot looking from a copywriter's
eye, that it's actually verysurface level.
It's doesn't have the depth.
It doesn't have facts.
It doesn't have stories.
It doesn't have that humantouch.
And that's what I'm kind ofseeing.
A lot of people just pumping itout.
And I think it might take alittle while for some people to
(08:57):
realize that they're affectingtheir brand because a lot of us
can pick up on these AIterminology, words and things
that it uses.
Um, And yeah, so a lot of peopledon't even realize that they're
doing it incorrectly.
So there could be very wellwithin, I don't know, a few
months.
I've still actually had somecopyright jobs come in this last
(09:18):
couple of months too, that hadotherwise not been there earlier
in the year, people wererealizing, Oh, okay.
I actually do need to hand thisproject over to the expert.
I don't have the headspace totry and work at AI and write the
content and edit it, and I don'tknow what I'm doing.
And yeah, so it might come fullcircle and resurge of, of the
(09:38):
need for copywriters, but Ithink all copywriters as well
need to understand promptengineering because it's the way
of the future.
We can't dig our head in thesand and think, no, no, it's
okay.
They'll always want us.
Accountants are still needed andwanted, but there's accounting
software, their role haschanged.
You just have to be prepared tochange as well.
Nigel Rawlins (09:58):
I think that's a great point you've just made
there.
The people are going to have ago at doing it themselves
because they think the ChatGPTsgoing to do the work.
Many, many years ago, I workedwith a former marketing manager
from a big American company.
We worked together.
I was the marketing service guy.
He was the strategist.
We worked with a governmentorganization, that was doing
(10:20):
fabulous work.
And when we went to thisorganization, all the people in
there who are doing thespecialist roles, working with
people, wanted to do marketingwith us.
And we had to tell them all off.
We had to say, no, you help yourorganization by doing your
particular specialist area, notby sort of coming to meetings
(10:41):
and talking about marketing andneglecting your, your, your
customers, your clients.
And this is probably, what I'mthinking that you're seeing that
there's people in organizationsthat, Oh, I can do that.
I'll just use Chat GPT and, andputting out rubbish.
Okay.
Let's talk about prompting abit.
One of the interesting thingsyou said there is how you
actually tell GPT, what you wantit to do.
(11:03):
So, it's called promptengineering, but you also, I
think.
hit it on the nail too with it'show you actually prompt it.
So let's talk a little bit aboutgood prompts.
Leanne Shelton (11:16):
Yes.
So I think what a lot of peopledid, and look, I did, I'm guilty
of this too, when I first openedChatGPT the first time, a lot of
people see that message bar atthe bottom, the same way they
see a Google search bar, which Ikind of touched on before.
Uh, but it's not a matter ofjust shouting demands at it.
I want this information, give itto me.
(11:37):
I tell people to treat ChatGPTor other generative AI like an
assistant, like an intern.
Think of it as another humanthat you need to give a really
thorough brief to therefore doits best job.
Just like an intern, it cansearch the internet.
It knows how to do that, but itdoesn't know about your
(11:59):
business.
It doesn't know about yourcustomers.
It doesn't know about your brandvoice and all that kind of
stuff.
So you have to teach it.
It's been pre trained, butthere's biases involved there
and you don't know what sourcesit's used.
And if it hasn't been trained onyour business, it doesn't
understand it.
So the very, very basics I teachis about first of all, training
it up on this is what mybusiness is.
(12:19):
This is what we do.
Here are our services.
Here are all the links that youneed to know.
And here's my customer.
Or can you help me work out mycustomer based on what questions
can I answer?
And then here are some samplesof my writing.
Can you do analysis and tell mewhat my writing style is.
Now, can you always write inthis style?
And I teach this just basicgroundwork because that is going
(12:42):
to straight away in improve youroutput tenfold or maybe even
more so.
And then when you do anyprompts, you say, I treat it
like a person.
So I say things like, please.
And thank you.
I think that's very importantone for just for maintaining a
sense of humanity.
And two, I've actually heardthat because it's trained up to
(13:02):
be human, like in its responses,humans respond better to
manners, so get in the habit.
I have seen AI people,enthusiasts who just go, write
me this, shouting demands.
I say, today we're going to workon this together, could you
please, I just, I'm just kind.
Um, but yeah, so I, you thinkabout this way, if you had an
(13:23):
internist next to you, knowsnothing about your business,
would you say, hey, can you gowrite me this article on this
topic?
They'll be like, okay, they're apaper pleaser, like ChatGPT will
say yes, but then it'll comeback and the draft is rubbish
and they have to go redo it andredo it and you get all
frustrated.
Same thing can happen withChatGPT.
So what you're going to do issay, okay, pretend I'm sitting
(13:44):
down with a person.
How much information would theyneed to do a proper job first
go?
And it will never be perfectbecause they're still learning.
Just like ChatGPT is like ababy.
Um, but you would say, okay,here's everything I know about
this topic.
Here are the sources I want youto use.
Make sure you're using thisbrand voice, blah, blah, blah.
(14:06):
Do you need anything else fromme?
Is there anything unclear?
And this is then you have a bitof a conversation and quite
often you don't realize ifyou've been vague, until you get
the output and realize, Oh,that's not what I wanted.
Okay.
I haven't been clear enough.
And then you go to the nextstep.
So you can't say prompts, as thesame thing as maths equations,
(14:28):
there is no exact prompt.
And you know, I bought one ofthose thousand prompt guides for
$57 when I started, there are noexact prompts.
It all comes down to context,comes down to your business.
If you just speak to it, causethere is actually an option to a
microphone option too.
If you speak or write to it asthough you're speaking to an
(14:48):
intern, you're going to get somuch better, uh, output, then if
you just said, go write me this,
Nigel Rawlins (14:56):
Now that is wonderful.
Basically, you're saying you canhave a conversation with your
ChatGPT to get to the pointwhere you can then ask it to do
an output.
And yes, um, having good mannersis also important.
So having had 10 years in theindustry of copywriting, now one
of the guests, Cedric Chin onepisode 58, writes about tacit
(15:20):
knowledge and getting that tacitknowledge out of people's heads,
now there is a system he talksabout to get that knowledge.
Now, if you've been incopywriting for 10 years and
obviously, were you a journalistbefore that?
Leanne Shelton (15:34):
I've done freelance journalism.
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (15:36):
So you've also got that tacit knowledge of how
to create good writing.
And when it comes tocopywriting, where you're being
paid to create a particularoutput for a brand or a business
or an organization, you've gotan awful lot of tacit knowledge
that you're putting into yourprompts.
Now, the normal everyday personwho's working in a job and said,
(15:57):
yeah, I'm going to use ChatGPTwon't have any of that
knowledge.
So you're teaching, it sounds,like here are some of the things
that I know through myexperience and then putting it
into prompts.
So you're running sessions.
Where and how do you teachpeople?
Leanne Shelton (16:12):
Yeah, so I have a few different offerings.
I run workshops, so for teams,uh, especially when you've got
the innovators in the teams andthose who haven't even touched
it and get everyone on the samepage.
My focus is on marketing teams,I can branch out if you really
want your team to get somesupport.
Um, and I also do like one onones if anyone just, If whether
(16:33):
you're just a business owner onyour own, uh, and really help
you understand how to train itup and be specific with examples
of projects that you want towork on.
And then I also have the AI DIYClub, which is a membership and
we experiment and explore withprompts every week online.
We have a different theme everymonth.
So right now we're working onwebinars as our theme.
(16:56):
So looking at AI tools, lookingat our prompts for script
writing and everything likethat.
And I'm big on getting yourhands dirty.
I don't just run sessions whereyou just go smile and nod.
Yeah, that sounds good.
I'll now find time andexperiment.
I always get people toexperiment with prompts then and
there and see its capabilities,understand the limitations,
(17:19):
because it may not give you theword count you wanted because
maybe it's repeating itselfbecause there's not enough
content based on what's beentrained on.
Or you might realize, no, I knowa lot more on this topic than it
does.
And so then you challenge it alittle bit.
So that's the thing you shoulduse it as a tool, bring all your
(17:40):
skills and expertise to thetable.
So as a copywriter, I have like,this is why I can do really good
marketing projects and contentwith it.
Cause I know what good qualitycontent and strategies look
like.
So when it gives me rubbish.
I can go, no, and then I'll kindof say a bit more like this, or
(18:01):
when it's good, I'll recognizegoing, Oh, I can see from past
experiences, yeah, that couldwork really well.
Oh, that sounds really good.
So whatever industry you're in,you can bring that to the table
and then say, okay, help me withthis project.
So say you're in customerservice, you know what a good
email should look like.
(18:22):
It will give you something yougo, no, actually I want a bit
more of this conversationalfeel, I want a bit more of this
nurturing or, um, problemsolving, or I want this to be
the outcome.
You know, what a good customerservice call, how that would end
up.
So you kind of want to workbackwards.
So there's a lot of strategyinvolved with it that a lot of
people don't realize that it'slike, Oh yeah, bit of that
(18:44):
laziness go, Oh, we're notlaziness.
I think it's just like aknowledge just going, Oh yeah,
cool.
Oh, they gave me this.
Great.
Um, and I think part of myfrustration is I have heard of
at least two examples ofcompanies firing their
copywriting teams, thinking, youI don't know who, maybe their
admin assistant can just pumpout the blogs or the website
(19:04):
content or whatever, or emails,but they don't know all that
background knowledge.
They don't know what makes agood email, what makes a good
article.
So they may end up rehiringthose people down the track.
Nigel Rawlins (19:17):
Oh, I think they will.
I think it will spin backbecause once this is mainstream
and people are realizing, well,it does take work, um, and
they're neglecting their duties.
Just like I mentioned about thisorganization we went into that,
All the staff in there thoughtit was going to be sexy to do
marketing.
And we're saying, no, get backto your jobs and look after your
clients.
(19:37):
You know, you're paying us to dothis and we're good at what we
do.
And it's going to take us onefifth the time it's going to
take you even to get to themeeting.
And then they'll have themeeting and never, they'll just
end up having meetings.
I think it will spin back, but Ithink it will spin back to the
people who are very au fait withusing ChatGPT or AI, plus having
(20:01):
a depth of knowledge like youhave in terms of your
copywriting and knowing what'sgood copy, because I'm assuming
that when you're doing yourbriefings, you're seeking out
quite a lot of information thatif they're a novice, they don't
even know that that's important.
So let's go back a little bit toyour briefing, your briefing
skills when you were doing yourcopywriting.
(20:22):
Do you use some of those skillswhen you're teaching a group
about using prompts?
Because I'm assuming that fitsreally well.
Leanne Shelton (20:32):
Yeah.
Cause a lot of the things that Ineed to find out from a client,
it's the type of stuff you needto plug into ChatGPT.
So it's all about really gettinga thorough understanding of who
you're speaking to, why is thisproject important?
The brand voice, like I said,cause that's what makes you more
unique and not sound like everyother person out there.
Yeah, a lot of that is exactlywhat I would ask in my, my
(20:54):
briefings.
And that's now what I'm askingmyself to therefore put it into
ChatGPT.
And I have used, you know, AIto, to write some content for
clients.
Some get a bit, Oh, Oh, hang onyour AI training.
Oh, are you just going to useAI?
Honestly, yes, I will use it,but I know how to use it and
ensure that it's supporting thecontent.
(21:15):
It's not going to make it soundreally robotic and generalized.
I know the techniques to make itsupport me.
So you don't question the, thegraphic designer who uses
InDesign, Photoshop or Canva andyou don't question the
accountant who uses QuickBooksXero or calculator, basically
now ChatGPT can be seen as atool that copywriters can now
(21:37):
use to enhance what they alreadyknow.
And this is where I get a bitconcerned about, yeah, people
being replaced, that's a bit offear mongering that's still
happening.
Media jobs being replaced.
I think it's actually a matterof upskilling right now and
understanding how this tool canbe used for your role.
My husband works in sales and inthe trades industry.
(21:58):
He's like, I don't think AI isrelated to me cause it's the
online space.
But he came to me to edit a coldemail.
I said, okay, let's use this asa training exercise.
Let's teach up on your company.
Now let's put in your draftemail and ask it to improve on
it.
And he's like, Oh, I get it nowbecause the whole training
(22:20):
process he'd never realized.
He thought it was purely, it's aone way communication.
Like I'm just spitting out, justgiving it demands, spitting it
out and that's it.
No, it's actually workingtogether with it.
A lot of people don't realizethe potential.
Nigel Rawlins (22:34):
That is a very important point.
Because they think, yeah,they're right.
There's putting in a prompt.
Yeah, that'll do.
Not realising, hey, how wouldthis improve or ask some
questions about it?
Well, how would this appear?
I mean, is this nice enough or,um, I'll be honest.
I wrote a letter to thepolitician the other day and I
asked it to be assertive, butpolite and respectful, uh, and
(22:58):
to use this source information.
And the output was amazing.
I thought, that's an almost anacademic level because it was an
important topic that I wanted towrite about.
And I was stunned.
I mean, I still have to edit it,uh, which is an important part,
but yeah, the output, if, if youask the right questions and feed
(23:18):
it, the right stuff is reallyimportant.
So I can, I can really see thebenefit for what you're doing
there, especially have, I think,coming from that copywriting
background and a marketingbackground and, yeah, I think
you're in the right business.
Leanne Shelton (23:30):
I mean, there's a lot of AI people who have got
a real technical or ITbackground and I don't come from
that.
So therefore I don't talk thejargon.
I still keep saying examplesinstead of use cases.
I still stumble over whatChatGPT stands for.
And so I think this is one ofthe reasons why I've connected
so well with my audiences,because I can speak at their,
(23:52):
their level.
I can speak their terms.
Um, I can kind of tell as wellfrom body language of concepts
going over their head and take afew steps back and, and just
explain it or just say, look,you don't need to worry about
that technical stuff.
All you need to know is this.
And I think that's, that's whatalso puts me apart.
I'm, you know, I get people whoactually, like I was saying
before, experiment with it andreally understand how it's
(24:13):
relevant to them.
Um, I, look, I took sometheoretical stuff, like,
overcoming your fears becauseit's, AI is going to become like
electricity.
Believe it or not.
It's going to be embedded in ourday to day lives.
So you've got to get on boardwith it.
I talk about some of thattheoretical stuff, but really
it's just about making peoplefeel comfortable with
experimenting and realize it'snot so scary and you don't have
(24:36):
to use it all the time.
Um, I'm not saying stop, youknow, thinking for yourself, not
at all.
And what I was saying before,like I'm actually thinking
differently and I know there'salso the fear with students and
writing essays with AI and allof that.
But what I reckon will end uphappening, just like with your
maths or science equations andformulas, you have to show your
(24:59):
working out.
That might be a way of thefuture.
Here's my essay.
Here's my working out, here aremy prompts.
Here's my reasoning for thoseprompts.
Here's the output.
Here's how I changed it.
And that's going to be where thehuman will come into it.
We're going to keep beingcritical and keep looking at it.
Um, and there's some AI tools Idid not agree with because they
(25:20):
take that human part away.
Like AI for sales, cold callsales.
I'm like, I don't even like ahuman calling me.
Why would I want a bot callingme?
And I think that's a trap a lotof people get into, the shiny
object, seeing how it benefitsthem.
But if you're doing it for likebusiness purposes or, you know,
you got to think about how it'sgoing to be received.
(25:41):
And that's, I think a missingpiece all the time.
Nigel Rawlins (25:44):
I think you're right there.
I do read quite a bit of stuff.
I don't like reading a lot ofbusiness books because I find
them really, really boring.
But one of the issues I see outthere is to be able to
communicate well with ChatGPT.
It's good to have a more of ageneralist education, or an arts
(26:04):
education, or to enjoyliterature, than having a
business background.
So, I know that sounds a bitstrange, because we're talking
about business here.
But if you've got a moregeneralist, uh, view of things,
you'll probably be able to writemore human like prompts to get
that human like outcome.
What do you think of that?
Leanne Shelton (26:25):
I actually read something similar about that.
You know, don't get them tostudy medicine.
Like I, it was actually, I thinkpretty sure that's what the
article is saying.
Don't send them to thesespecific things because.
In the future, AI is going toplay such a major part in
medicine.
Doctors might be just there justso people feel like there's a
human in the room.
You know, you're better offsending them to do literature,
(26:48):
philosophy all the subjects thatmake you think, not memorize
stuff because AI is going to beable to memorize, memorize stuff
for you.
You don't need to have that.
I mean, even you go to the GPnow, I said, I've got the
symptoms.
They're going, Oh, let me justlook up in the system.
So even now they're not going,or most of them off the top of
their head, you've got this.
(27:09):
They're going, let me justconsult.
So.
I think it's so important aboutthinking for ourselves and this
is where I get very passionateand riled up sometimes because I
can see so many people usingChatGPT to write their, you
know, social media posts or thecomments to replies to comments
and like, how is this servingyou?
(27:30):
Like, are you even, are you evenjust, it may even be automating
that process itself.
I've spoken to people who dothat and they're so proud of
themselves.
Oh yeah, I had this AI tool thatreads all the posts on my feed
and it automatically comes upwith comments to respond.
And then I just do a quick lookand then it posts it out.
What is the point of that?
Like, isn't social media aboutthe human connection?
(27:53):
So there's a lot of this, andlook, I'll probably die down
because it's still very freshand new and exciting.
And look what I can do with thisthing.
It's so cool.
But I think thinking foryourself and going, okay, what
do I actually want right now?
What?
Do I want to achieve with thisproject?
What is the point?
And then thinking backwards,that's going to keep us, you
(28:15):
know, the human side, or I don'tmind if you write some notes and
then you get it to, you know,like submit that letter to the,
you know, the politician, you'vegot the initial thoughts and
then you get it to help clean itup and just get that clarity or
remove the emotion if you'redealing with a difficult
customer via email or, you know,big complaint and you're too
close to it.
(28:36):
Get AI to help you do that stuffso you can move on with your
day.
I totally believe it all gettingover the white screen of death.
You procrastinate so long, butyou need to get this thing done.
It can remove that barrier toentry and get you started.
So you're not wasting yourcreative energy on getting
started.
You can then get started.
Now I can put all that effortinto building upon it.
(28:57):
So, yeah, that's, that's where Ithink it needs to be used.
But a lot of people don'trealize like, Oh, look, it's, I
can just cut corners.
The word productivity is thrownaround a lot and I think, yes,
it will help you be moreproductive.
But a project that took you aweek.
Don't expect it to take fiveminutes with AI, it may take you
a day instead.
Still will save you time, butyou need to be realistic with
(29:20):
how much time it's going to saveyou.
Nigel Rawlins (29:22):
Yeah, I think that's really important too,
because the issue there iscognitive overload, or the
cognitive demands of having todo something.
But if you've got a sense of howyou can work with AI, or
ChatGPT, I think you can work,um, augment, I guess is probably
(29:43):
the better word, augmentyourself to, not only just be
more creative, but be able to bemore, uh, a better communicator.
One, one of the people I I readon Twitter, actually I see him,
and sometimes I think I see himon LinkedIn, is Ethan Mollick.
He, he talks about, cyborgs andcentaurs.
If you came across that, uh, acyborg is using AI all the time,
(30:05):
so that's a person.
For me, because I do a lot ofmarketing work and I do a lot of
website work with WordPress.
And so I'm saying how do Iconfigure my Google analytics
and how do I get it to reportthis?
Um, I'm in and out of AI, notjust for writing.
Uh, I do a lot of writing, butgee, I don't just use ChatGPT
(30:28):
for just that.
So that's a cyborg.
And then Ethan Mullick alsotalks about centaurs.
Now that's the half horse, halfman.
So what he means by that is thatwhere appropriate, you'll use
AI, but not all the time.
Leanne Shelton (30:45):
Yeah.
And I think that's, that's whatI do.
I know there's some AIenthusiasts who go, Oh, I use
AI, this for my emails and thisfor this, and this for this.
And, and it, it runs my life.
And I'm like.
Nah, I prefer to be stillmanaging my emails because I
just don't trust it toaccidentally delete something or
I don't know.
I don't have everything in mybusiness automated, although
(31:06):
everyone keeps, that's abuzzword, automation.
Look, most of the time I'm usingit for my training, to be
honest.
It could be in terms of help mecome up with workshop plans.
And I'm like, I know I want tocover these topics and these
topics and have a game afterlunch or whatever.
It's a full day one.
Give me a plan.
Great.
I'll play around with it.
Help me for my club, I'm goingto talk about this, can you just
write me a five minute scriptjust to kind of introduce the
(31:28):
topic just so I can move on withthat, the prompt stuff and the,
and I'm an AI trainer.
I don't use it all the time.
It's not embedded in my world.
I'm just using it to support mewhen I need it.
When, even like, there's stillsome times I ask my husband a
question, he's like, can't youjust ask ChatGPT for that?
It still doesn't occur to me,um, all the time to go to
ChatGPT and get me to, you know,tell me how to fix the printer.
(31:51):
But yeah, that's, that's thething.
I think we still need to keepour sense of humanity.
And that's, you know, onceagain, why I call my business
Human Edge.
I want us to keep the humanity.
I don't want us to all turn torobots.
You know, forget how to think.
I think of the movie WALL-E.
I don't know if you've seenthat, that cute cartoon, but you
know, humans are just sitting inthese little vehicles and not
(32:12):
even looking at the outsideworld.
Just it's telling them what towear and what to eat and not
even thinking.
I don't want us to turn intothat.
I think so many people are like,that's cool, it can do this for
us and do this.
But why isn't a sense ofhumanity, like what sets us
apart?
I don't want anyone to losethat.
Just go, okay, there are someways that I can support me and
(32:35):
there's some ways that it'sreally onto you.
Nigel Rawlins (32:38):
Well, this is the thing about when I talk about
independent professionals, theseare the professionals who are
working for themselves at home.
I mean, the reason, hopefully,that they're working for
themselves is they're stillpretty excited about their, um,
their area of expertise.
And now we're talking about,well, bring in some AI to to
augment or to help you with yourthinking, helping with your
(33:00):
writing and with your socialmedia, because you can use it
for everything.
You know, the point you'remaking is the prompts have got
to be, uh, good human likeprompts.
So what advice would you giveto, say, an independent
professional who's probablyolder?
I don't know about you, butbecause I'm well, I am a baby
(33:21):
boomer and I'm a bit older.
We didn't have phones when I wasa kid.
I don't even know if we had atelephone in the house.
The TV was black and white.
So people my age, um, now I'mprobably a bit technical, but I
do hire specialists do stuff if,if I can't figure it out, but
people who've been happilyworking away in their business
(33:42):
and getting work as anindependent professional, cause
they're an expert in their job,where do you suggest they
actually begin?
With, um, ChatGPT or AI.
Leanne Shelton (33:51):
Yeah.
It's a great question.
So look, I actually, in my club,there's a couple of regulars who
are similar age to you, Nigel,so it's okay.
And I think that's part of thereason I speak very non
technical and anyone who didn'tknow technology, they can
understand my explanations andthings.
But what I I'd say is first ofall, don't get overwhelmed with
all the AI talk of all thedifferent tools and all the
(34:14):
different things.
I say, just start with ChatGPTbecause if you can work out that
and the basics, and if you docommit to paying for it, it is
worth it, it's 20 US a month.
Which, it depends on exchange.
It's around 30 Australian.
It's worth it because you getthings like, can do the image
creation.
There'll soon be the text tovideo.
(34:34):
Other features will be comingmore to it, so you don't have to
go to all the other tools.
But what I'd say in terms ofgetting started, first of all,
get an account.
Second of all, think of aproject that you're working on
right now.
It could just be an email thatyou need to send out, or an e
newsletter you want to create oran article you want to write.
Just think about somethingthat's relevant to what you're
(34:56):
doing right now.
Don't think about, you know, thepie in the sky to-do list that
you've always wanted to start,you know, always wanted to write
that book.
Don't go there yet.
Start with something that you'dbe doing later today.
And you know, you have to writethat email.
And so just think about what'sthe idea of the email, what's
the point of it?
Is it a responding to someone?
(35:16):
Is it an outreach?
Think about all that kind ofstuff.
And this is purely without eventraining it up, just experiment
with then what it gives you.
So say write this email for me,it's to this person, this is who
they are, give some background.
You can say write in aprofessional tone.
And then say now rewrite in aprofessional and conversational
(35:37):
tone and see how it changes.
And then say like professional,conversational and quirky, and
then see how that changes.
And then you'll start to get afeel for how the prompts that
you put in affects the output.
It's the same thing as you say,this is for a woman, a 20 year
old woman.
It will write a certain way.
If you say it's for a 50 yearold man, it will write a
(35:59):
different way.
So all this stuff is veryimportant.
So I would just say initially tostart experimenting with it, the
next step would be to train itup and properly understand, you
know, your role and your companyand the audience and all that.
That's the next step.
I can help you with that.
Just to begin with, just seewhat it does.
(36:20):
And then put a critical eye overwhat it spits out and think,
okay, what's missing here, whathuman aspect could I add to
this?
Um, You know, I still see foremails, I hope this email finds
you well.
I don't think many people writethat now.
It's, it's caught up in thatbecause obviously they won't be
reading it if it, they didn'tget it., but yeah, just have a
(36:42):
think, have a little play aroundwith it, or even if it's non
business related, get it to helpyou write a travel, agenda for
you, a plan for the weekend withthe grandkids, with your own
kids, with whatever.
Or you want to go on a holidayto a certain location, get it to
suggest different locations tovisit on a 10 day trip, and then
you'll just start to realizewhat it can do, but also what it
(37:05):
can't do.
So yeah, just don't get scared.
Just play around.
Nigel Rawlins (37:08):
I think that's a great idea.
I actually went to Vietnam lastyear and, uh, the doctor
prescribed a whole range ofstuff.
So I listed it all out and said,what would I use this stuff for?
And it gave me a list.
Um, yeah.
So it's, it, it is an amazinglittle tool.
And I think that's fantasticwhat you just said.
Just start off by playing withit and, and see what responses
(37:30):
you get.
Would you suggest that they doany of the online training?
And, and that's a bit of aloaded one because I've done a
few and I want to say somethingabout it, but, um, are there any
good online trainings or placesthey can go?
I mean, obviously, um, if, ifyou're doing a corporate
training, it would be good forthem to go to that, but if, if
(37:51):
they're at home and they'rethinking, oh, well, where can I
learn a bit more about it?
What would you suggest they do?
Leanne Shelton (37:57):
Yeah.
The AI club would come in forsure, cause it's a low cost
every month and it's uh, I'mtoying, whether it's a two hour
or one hour every week, I'vebeen doing two hours of just
experimenting with differentprompts with a different theme
every month.
Someone once said to me, whyshould you even bother doing
training when there's so manyYouTube videos out there for
free?
And I think it's because it'speople want to be able to ask
(38:19):
the questions and be able toexperiment in the safe space and
just say, I've done this, what'swrong with it?
Like, how can I fix this?
Or I've got this project.
Can you give me some tips onthat?
You don't get that from justwatching, watching videos.
And there's lots of courses aswell.
Some are, um, you know, cheaperthan others.
(38:40):
Some are really expensive.
Uh, you need to be aware aboutthe technical aspects of them,
how technical they're going tobe.
And that's why, if you want toget your hands dirty, really
just experiment in a safe,supportive space.
And that's where my club comesin.
We have a Q and A session aswell, as well as an AI playtime
session.
And those that are in it,they're loving it.
(39:00):
They're just learning so muchjust from doing this stuff.
One, one member, Margaret, forexample, we were doing award
writing and the grant writinglast month.
And she's like, I'm still goingto turn up because I'm not
writing any of that stuff, but Ialways learn something new.
And sure enough, there was someprompts that things just like,
talked like you're talking to afriend, just a random little
(39:23):
thing that popped up that wastotally unrelated to the topic,
but she still learned from beingthere.
And yes, everyone's reallyenjoying that.
So it comes down to, I guess,your style of learning.
If you do like to really learnby doing, which I think a lot of
people do, Then you'll probablyfind the club really helpful.
And then if you need a one onone, then obviously I can go
that next level too.
That's all online.
Nigel Rawlins (39:43):
Now that sounds actually lovely.
I've done four courses now.
One I did with some guru that Iread on Twitter and I must admit
it cost me a lot in Americandollars and the thing was
rubbish.
Then I did a cheaper one with aNew Zealand guy who lives in
Vietnam.
I did two of his ones which Ithought were a lot more
(40:04):
practical.
And they weren't too expensive.
And then I've done a fourth onenow, which has blown my mind,
but had I not done some of theseother ones, I would never have
understood this fourth one,which is a lot more technical.
But I agree.
I think an interactive, likeyou're discussing, is probably a
great introduction.
I would actually recommend thatover any of those courses that
(40:26):
I've done.
Leanne Shelton (40:28):
Cause were they all just watching recorded
videos and then, or was thereany live elements to it.
Nigel Rawlins (40:33):
They were all recorded.
So the first just like lecturingme and it was poorly put
together.
Obviously the person rushed intothe space.
They obviously had a really bigfollowing and that, that's a
benefit of being in business.
If you've got a big email listor a big followership, you can
sell them stuff.
And, and, you know, if you onlyget a hundred out of your
thousand people come through,you can make money.
(40:53):
And that's what that personobviously did.
So it was pretty, prettyordinary to start with.
Leanne Shelton (40:59):
Yeah.
I've seen a bit of happeningtoo.
I went to one of those free orlow cost, I think actually maybe
I paid 50 bucks for it, one dayevent from a well known business
entrepreneur and coach orwhatever.
And he was basically justpitching his bootcamp and just
kind of throwing in AI.
Like here's some stuff, somecool things, my team told me
(41:20):
about AI, but ultimately he wasall pushing into his bootcamp,
which all now we're doing AI.
And it was very much jumpingonto the AI bandwagon.
And I'm like, Oh, no cringe.
So I, look how I learned aboutAI, I listened to some different
podcasts.
I don't even remember which onesnow, cause I stopped listening,
but, just look up AI in terms ofpodcasts.
I had one for a few monthscalled the AI Train and then
(41:41):
kind of fizzled out.
But yeah, podcasts are reallygood, especially the ones with
updates, because then you canjust, yeah, really get a quick
update on what's going on.
And also, for me, followingpeople on LinkedIn that are in
the AI space, quite often thosebite sized, um, tips that they
offer, including myself, I'mpretty active there too, that's
how I'm doing most of mylearning now.
(42:02):
I would just even start withthat.
And then you could, you know,once you put up the trust with
them, invest in the courses andwhatever, but yeah, I'm, I'm
working on it at the moment.
I think some sort of a coursethat would include.
A live Q and a every week.
So you might do it over sixweeks pre recorded, but I'll
always be there live to answerquestions.
(42:23):
Cause that's the thing I just,and a lot of people purchase
these courses and never actuallywatch as well or actually
implement.
And I'm so big on, I want you tolearn something.
I want you to have those ahamoments.
So yeah, that's where I'd start.
Just listen to, listen topodcasts or following on
LinkedIn, some AI people, andthen, then you could probably go
for the course option.
(42:43):
But yeah, all of the club, theclub's good too.
Nigel Rawlins (42:46):
I agree.
Do not rush into a paid course,but yes, I would explore your
one because it is going to be alive session and they can ask
questions rather than a prerecorded one.
I've spent hundreds of dollarsand unfortunately they're all in
American dollars, so it costs alot more for Australians.
But yeah, you're right.
Though, I must admit the fourthone I've done, has certainly
(43:06):
stretched my thinking about itall and how I use it.
But yeah, I like that advice.
Okay, so at this point we'veprobably covered everything,
haven't we?
Is there anything else that youcan think of that we need to
cover here?
Leanne Shelton (43:19):
I think just in general, just don't be fearful
of it.
I think there's still a lot offear around, you know, yeah,
like I said before, it's AIreplacing your jobs or, or it's
just too scary or I just don'tknow how to get started.
I think don't, don't getyourself all worked up.
Look, I don't think jobs will bereplaced if the bosses are in
(43:40):
the right mindset.
I think unfortunately it's a bitof a self fulfilling prophecy.
We're hearing about jobs beingreplaced, so therefore managers
think jobs can be replaced.
I would just, yeah, just exploreit.
And invest in the paid versionof ChatGPT, just cause the
output is better.
You don't use up tokens withinan hour of using it and you've
got the whole day ahead of you.
I think, yeah, that's probablythe main thing.
(44:00):
And when it comes to security,there are tools around that now,
I know Microsoft's Copilot has,uh, some sort of option to keep
it private.
ChatGPT has a temporary chat tokeep it private.
And just met someone the otherday, they actually provide
platforms that are purely,purely private.
It has been pre trained.
It's not accessible to anyoneelse except your company.
(44:22):
So I'll be exploring that andmaybe being an affiliate for
that.
But I think that's the mainthing.
Just don't, don't be fearful.
It is still only a baby.
So just remember that it's notgoing to be great quality.
It may seem really great at thesurface, but when you deep dive
into it, it's still a long wayto go and it definitely needs
the humans to run it.
(44:43):
It cannot run itself.
Nigel Rawlins (44:45):
Perfectly said.
So, thank you, Leanne.
How would you like people tofind you or connect with you?
Leanne Shelton (44:52):
Yep.
So you can find me on LinkedIn,just look for Leanne Shelton.
You'll see my profile at themoment is I'm wearing a robotic
outfit from a nap cord photoleap.
And yeah, also my website ishumanedgeai.
com.
So you can check that out andfind out more about the AI DIY
Club and my other services.
But yeah, LinkedIn is where Ihang out.
(45:12):
So that's, that's probably agood place to connect with me.
Nigel Rawlins (45:15):
Oh, that's fantastic.
So thank you very much Leanne,for joining me.
Leanne Shelton (45:17):
Thanks, Nigel.
It's been great.
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