Navigating Self-Employment in L&D: Jane Hudson’s Success Story

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nigel Rawlins (00:00):
My special guest is Jane Hudson.

(00:02):
She was guest number five andnow returns for the 55th
episode, marking a milestone inour journey together.
Jane is an expert in learningand development with a niche
focus on regulatory training.
In this episode we'll catch upon what's transpired over the
last 50 episodes, delving intothe evolution of her career as

(00:23):
an independent professional.
We'll explore the intricacies ofhow she manages her business.
The projects that she'scurrently working on and her
tips on running a successful Land D consultancy.
Whether you're an aspiringentrepreneur or you're already a
professional in the learning anddevelopment field or any other
field, Jane's insight onself-employment, remote team

(00:47):
management and effective pricingstrategies, will offer some
practical guidance andinspiration.
So get ready to learn a littlebit more about running an
independent professionalbusiness.
Welcome, Jane.
You were my guest number fiveand now you're my guest 55, so
we're going to do some catchingup.
Jane, can you tell us somethingabout yourself and where you're

(01:09):
from?

Jane Hudson (01:09):
Okay, so I work as a learning and development
consultant and my background, myfirst career was a professional
freelancing musician in Sydney.
I did that for about 10 yearsand then, moved to Melbourne and
then decided to get a day job,mainly because I've become a

(01:30):
sole supporting parent, so I, ohgosh, I've got to actually pay
the rent for two now, I'd betterdo something about that.
So I landed in government andspent about 20 years working
with different governmentregulators, and then moved from
being a government employee torunning my own business.
Basically doing the same kind ofwork, but doing it for me as
opposed to being an employee.

And where are you based?

So I'm based in central Victoria.
Moved up here six years ago,tomorrow being the 1st of August
and spent the first yearcommuting back down to Melbourne
running J Bass Learning as aside hustle and still having
full time employment.
And then after the first year, Igot a really good project offer
and I went, you know what?

(02:13):
It's now or never.
Let's just take the leap andaccept the project and leave the
day gig and see if I can makethis business pay for Jane,
basically.

So let's talk about where you live.
You moved from Melbourne, whichis the capital of Victoria in
Australia, to a country town.
The benefit I know because wespoke on episode number five is
that you're on a rail line.
That commute to Melbourne, howwas that?

It's easy.
It's an hour and a half.
So I live in central Victoria,about an hour and a half north
of Melbourne.
So we do have good regionaltrain services.
And I work from home.
So it's a really greatenvironment.
It's a great town.
I don't feel like we're cut offfrom the city and all the work I
do is online.
And that was pre COVID and thenCOVID really cemented that and

(03:02):
changed people's understandingsof how online work can work.
So I don't travel to go and meetclients.
The advantage is I get to workwith people from all across the
country and not so much aroundthe world, but sometimes.
So the project I'm working on atthe moment I've got a team of
five working with me based inBrisbane, the Blue Mountains

(03:25):
Melbourne, New Zealand,Adelaide.
So it makes it reallyinteresting.
You get to work with some reallyamazing people and it doesn't
matter where they live, you canall come together have fun, if
that makes sense in a workcontext.

I guess in many ways, since COVID, we've got
used to online meetings andconnecting in that way.
Now, just before we go on with alittle bit about that like you,
I'm a hundred kilometressoutheast of Melbourne we're on
a train line too, but I've gotto catch a bus to get it.
But the benefit of living out inthe country, I guess housing's a

(03:59):
little bit cheaper, but alsoit's lovely and quiet.
Like I can't hear any car noisefrom you, and I haven't had a
car go past since about seveno'clock this morning, I think.

Yeah, I think, and there's a real it's big skies
and lots of space.
Yeah so yeah, it works for me.
Our town is a very active,vibrant town.
It has a really strong artscommunity.
They run an annual jazzfestival, we have the amazing
Theatre Royal, with all sorts ofbands and concerts coming

(04:31):
through, so it's not like we'remissing out on, the benefits of
being in a big city, but we havethe advantage that we're not
living an urban life anymore.

I just like my quiet little town with a couple
of supermarkets.
All right.
Let's go back to what we weretalking about.
The fact is that you can workanywhere in the world or connect
with anyone within a team.
Now this has happened sinceCOVID hasn't it?
Can we talk a little bit aboutthat?
Has your work changed sinceCOVID as a result?

I'm going to actually say not really, I think
what I was doing it beforeCOVID, I think what COVID has
done is shown people differentways of working that it can be
done effectively online,depending on the work that
you're doing.
Sometimes you do need to go andbe there in person.
I tend to avoid those types ofjobs.

(05:22):
That's just a personal choice.
But so I think what COVID'sreally done is it's really made
it a lot easier for people tounderstand how it can be done.
And it's, look, it's better forthe environment.
Why would I fly around and drivearound when I can do it online?
Why would you?
Unless you're an extrovert andthen you really want to be in
the same room with the people.

(05:44):
Fortunately, I am not.
Online works.

Now the other interesting thing you were
talking about is generally wedon't record, but we can see
each other online.
And you were concerned that Icould actually see the
environment behind you, that youlike to blur out the background.
Tell us something about that.
You don't like people seeinginto your place?

No, I think it's more, it's about distractions.
Like one person I work with hereye for detail, I blows me away.
So I'm talking to you now and Idon't have the background
blurred..
She would get distracted and go,Oh, I really like that painting.
Oh, do you have a piano?
So if I blur it out there's notthat distraction.

(06:21):
And it's a weird thing to say,but it's also it depends how
well I know people, whether Ifeel I want to blur the
background or not.
Yeah, it's a bit of a privacything around, look, you're new
to me, if you're a stranger,it's a professional
relationship, but you don't needto see the pile of washing on
the couch that needs folding orwhatever it happens to be.

One of the things about that, though, is you do
get to see the whole person,whereas that's the danger of
just meeting online is, if youjust see the person, you don't
see anything about their life.
Like I don't hide mine, but I dokeep it really tidy.

It's interesting about getting to know the person
because I take your point, butif I was meeting with you
physically, you wouldn't see myhome and I wouldn't see yours.
We would be in a businesssetting, focusing on the
business stuff we're doing,trying to act professional and
generally failing, but giving ita go.

The issue there is that when you're meeting
somebody you're actually lookinginto each other's eyes With our
cameras, I don't even know ifI'm looking at you.
My camera's up there.
And I'm looking down there, soif I'm looking at you and I took
a picture, I'm probably notlooking at your eyes.
So that's the difference.
You can get cameras now thatit's like I'm looking into your

(07:35):
eyes, but I don't know how thataffects our communication.
We're not actually looking intoeach other's eyes as we talk,
like we would if we met.

Yeah, it's an interesting one.
I don't know.
Yeah, I do know that I'm muchmore conscious as I've been
doing more and more of theseonline meetings.
I'm much more conscious of ifI'm wanting to talk to you, like
I actually want to make a pointto you directly looking in your
eyes.
I'll look at the camera becauseI figured that's how I'm looking
into your eyes, do you know whatI mean?
Yeah, I've had to work on that.

There are cameras now that are at eye level and it
looks like you're looking atyou.
And there's also software thatmakes your eyes look like you're
looking at you.
All right.
Let's go into L& D, learning anddevelopment.
You've probably been in thelearning and development field
for quite a number of years.
How do you think it'sdeveloping?
What are your thoughts aboutlearning and development today?

There's the technology side of course, a lot
more e learning, a lot moreonline workshops, and that also
was another impact of COVID,where companies really had to
pivot how they were supportingtheir staff's capability with
learning and development,because they couldn't run in
person workshops, and thingslike that.
What I'm noticing, which I thinkis quite interesting, is now

(08:49):
that COVID has passed, I'mworking with a client and they
said we want e learning modules,we want online workshops.
So we're like, oh, okay, cool,we can do that.
And it's a long time, it's a bigproject.
It's a 12 month project.
And over the time, they'veshifted.
They're going We don't want theworkshops to be online anymore.
We want them to be face to face.
Everybody's crying out for theface to face experience again,

(09:11):
which I thought was superinteresting just because they're
a National organization and theyhave an office in every capital
city and territory in thecountry.
So that means I have 10 officesaround the country and they
actually see the benefit inflying trainers to the local

(09:32):
office to run training face toface, which technically is going
to cost a lot more than if theyran it online.
But they're saying the benefitsof that extra cost of flights,
accommodation, the time it takesa trainer to travel.
They still think that is goingto give them a good return with
their learning development.
So they'll do the face to face.

(09:53):
They'll run them, I'm justdesigning it and I give it to
them.
But I thought that wasinteresting, even though online
is great and it's really openedup all sorts of opportunities
like we talked about earlier.
You can work with people fromall around the country or
internationally.
At the end of the day, humansare still just humans.
And people like to be in thesame room together.
It creates a whole differentfeel and energy and connection.

(10:16):
Yeah.

Oh, it's definitely an energetic thing.
So let's just go into that alittle bit.
How do you design for a livesession now, as against for the
online one?
So for the online one, I guessyou would have designed
everything just to run.
Whereas a live one would bequite different, what's the
difference in design for thosetwo?

Activities and timing is really the key
difference.
So your learning outcomes don'tchange.
You still know what you need toachieve.
If you run a workshop online,you need to treat time
differently.
Online learning is a much moreintense experience.
So you generally make theworkshop sessions a bit shorter.
You have much more flexibility,you can actually get people

(11:00):
physically standing up andmoving around and moving into
groups and working onwhiteboards and flip charts and
having conversations.
And it's really different, likein online, what can you do?
A breakout room.
So you send them off to do smallgroup activities in the breakout
room.
Most of the technologies likewhiteboards and Miro boards and

(11:21):
things, I work with government.
Government can't access any ofthose extra technologies.
They're restricted to MS Teams,which is really limited.
So you're very narrow in whatyou can do in an online workshop
for the activities.
But face to face, it feels likeyou'll be more adventurous and
have more options for how peoplelearn and what you get them to

(11:42):
do.

That's really quite interesting because one of
the issues about learning that Iunderstand is, you can do an
online course and do a quiz andyou can tick the box and you can
assume you've got somecompetency, Then the issue is,
can you actually do that?
Which is capability.
So with the live classes orlearning, I would assume that

(12:05):
they get a sense that thelearning is actually occurring
whereas, we can only do a tickthe box when it's online.
And I've done online learningbefore, and if I can't remember
something, I'll go back or I'lltake copious notes so I can tick
the box.
What about recall then?
You're following that in termsof, is one better than the
other, do you think?

I think with online learning, the risk is exactly
what you described.
It can be quite easy to skatethrough, make sure you've ticked
all the boxes, and potentiallybe more focused on getting that
piece of paper at the end, likea credential.
Oh, I did this, I can put it onmy LinkedIn profile, I can put
it in my resume.
So there's more risk, I think,of that sort of approach

(12:44):
happening when people are doingonline learning, also known as
self directed learning, so theydon't have a facilitator or
anyone supporting them.
But outside of that, for eitheroption, whether you're online or
face to face.
there's always a challengeabout, you asked about recall,
how the learner who's done theworkshop either online or in

(13:05):
person, to take that learningand apply it in their job.
And that's something that in thelearning and development
community we wrestle with allthe time.
And for me, because I work inmore organizational learning
settings, I'm not just designinga workshop.
It's a workshop as part of abigger program.
So one of the things we'reworking on at the moment, you

(13:27):
come in, you do the e learningmodule that gives you your
underpinning knowledge.
There's some practice questionsand scenarios, so that's useful.
And then you need to come and doa half day workshop.
That's where you're going topractice and use scenarios to
apply the learning, and then weconnect it to their manager and
team leader, and basically themanager's role is to support

(13:50):
their staff members to take whatthey've learned in the e
learning module and theworkshop, and make sure they're
applying it on the job.
So support them, check, answerquestions, nudge, and if it goes
on too long, like they've donethe training, but they're not
doing it in their work, you gofrom nudge to push to
performance improvement, butthat's how we address it.

(14:14):
Yeah.
So everything is in context.
It's not just do this e learningmodule.
It's always making it link intowhat are you going to do with
this in the job and how will wesee, or how would your manager
see that you've taken thatlearning on board and you've
made any changes and you'redoing your work in inverted
commas better, more efficiently,more confidently.

And I guess we should say that your niche is
regulatory learning.
Is that the context we'retalking about?

Yes, government regulators.
So I live in a world where Iwork with government regulators
to help them improve theircapability to go out and
regulate.
The community for whatever itis.
I worked with WorkSafe Victoria.
So their mandate was protectingOH& S, protecting workers from

(15:02):
harms and risks at work.
So I worked with theirinspectors and investigators,
they developed the skills andknowledge they needed to
effectively interpret thelegislation, go out and inspect
the premises, understand what isthe legal entity, the duty
holder is doing right, and whatthey're not.
And then give them advice.

(15:24):
I use that word carefullybecause regulators are not
consultants, but guide themwith, hey, this isn't compliant
with legislation.
You need to do X.
So yeah, government regulators,Environment Protection
Authority, mining, childprotection disability sector.
Yeah, so different things thatthey're regulating but the

(15:45):
principles underneath are thesame.
So that's my niche, I'm not justL& D, I'm regulatory L& D.

That's really important because we're going to
talk about business a bit laterbecause one of the problems a
lot of people have is beingreally clear about what they're
doing and who it's for, whichis, positioning in many ways.
So your niche is regulation.
Now you mentioned the word selfdirected learning just before.
Can you tell us something aboutthat and how does that impact

(16:12):
your own learning?

Self directed learning is when someone's doing
an e learning module and themodule's completely self
contained and there's no humanwho's going to, guide them,
remind them and it's just up tothe individual to say, I want to
do this course, I'm going to doit.
That's self directed learningand it takes quite a lot of self
discipline to continue to theend.

(16:34):
So the problem that e learningfaces is very poor completion
rates.
I'm thinking like 20–25 percentcompletion rates on online
courses.
Because people lose interest,get distracted, they don't have
the ongoing discipline to comeback and finish the course and
do the activities and answer thequestions.
On the one hand we say elearning is great, it's

(16:54):
flexible, people can do it intheir own time and it's a really
viable option for largeorganisations with, dispersed
workforces.
The downside is that people findthose courses quite hard to see
through to the end, unless theyhave a manager saying, have you
done this?
Or unless maybe they gettogether with a group of friends
and they all say, let's do ittogether and we can help each

(17:17):
other, so that's a nutshell forself directed learning.
Good thing, but easier said thandone.

For the self employed keeping up to date.
For example, for me, I've paidfor a number of online courses.
Some I paid for them two yearsago.
I haven't yet started them.
I am working through them and Ithink I've mentioned it on the
podcast before.
I've got a desk that rises upand down and I've just bought a
little under desk treadmill.
So what I do now is, because Ineed to move more because I'm

(17:46):
getting a bit bigger in themiddle, I get on my treadmill
and that's when I'll do myonline learning.
So I'm actually starting to getthrough it a bit.
I was

thinking, you're not treadmilling now are you
Nigel, because you're notmoving.

Nah, you'd hear it.
No, I've already walked about 4kthis morning.
I went out early.
Oh wow.
Did a long walk.
this is the problem with workingfrom home.
it's too easy to sit on your bumall day.
As humans, we have to move.
I've paid for lots of onlinelearning and some I go on and
it's just totally boring, andit's just so badly done.
I've spent too much money on it,but I am working my way through

(18:18):
them.
And that's my little excusegetting on this treadmill a
couple of times a day that givesme half an hour and I don't go
too fast on the treadmill.
It just gives me some moremoving and getting off the seat.
And that's one of our issues, aswe're older and working for
ourselves, it's just keeping ourmind active and not getting
burnt out.
All right, so what do you liketo learn about for

yourself to keep yourself up to date?
Okay, at this stage, for thisyear, I'm saying I'm learning on
the job, basically.
So this project I talked aboutearlier is seven E-learning
modules, four face-to-faceworkshops, five subcontractors
and a whole implementation plan,a comms plan.

(19:02):
So I'm learning on the job.
I've learned a ton about,producing e-learning modules,
like not just writing thecontent but the actual
production.
I've learned a lot about, howrandom people can be.
As a learning and developmentproject manager, which is my
thing, I do design, but Iproject manage, I am a
professional cat herder, butthis project is really testing

(19:25):
my cat herding For example,Module 3 has been approved.
So the process is we send thesoftware package to the client,
it is now theirs, they put it ontheir system, everybody's happy.
And the client came backyesterday with more feedback.
None of it was needed, butthey're just having more ideas.

(19:49):
So I've literally, just beforemeeting with you, I sent you the
email saying, so just let meconfirm.
Do you want this change or not?
We're going to have to gobackwards and forwards to
accommodate the change, but asI'm writing it, Nigel, I'm
going, Why?
Why did you think this now?
I wasn't expecting you.
And you've signed it off.
And then you go, Oh, one morechange.

(20:09):
No.
I don't think so.
And that I've learned too, howdo you politely say to a really
enthusiastic, meaning client,how do you politely say, do you
know what, the door's shut onthat one.
We're finished.
Move on.
Outside of that conferences,professional memberships are a
useful thing, so I'm a memberwith Australian Institute of

(20:31):
Training and Development, andthe Institute for Learning
Professionals.
So that keeps me in touch withjust what my learning and
development peers are thinkingabout, debating, what new trends
may be coming.
There's a big flurry around ChatGPT when it first really hit,

(20:52):
everybody's saying it's going tochange the whole world.
It's going to change what we doin learning and development.
We won't need instructionaldesigners anymore, which is all
just rubbish.
And people have settled down andgone it's a tool.
Yes, it's useful.
So that seems to quietened off.
And like I said, what I'mlearning is technology is great.
Online learning has it's placebut at the end of the day, we're

(21:15):
just human beings and we reallylike getting in a room solving
problems basically.
You've

just said is that the client is outsourced
completely.
They're getting you to projectmanage and you've got a team
together.
So they're not trying to havethis in house anymore.
I do know that someorganizations have, in house
training and all that to try anddo this.
So why couldn't thisorganisation organise that
themselves?

(21:40):
Or is this project you've beenworking on so specialised that
they haven't got the capabilityin house?

It's all of the above and some.
So this particular one, theydon't have internal capability
and they knew that.
This is where it gets awkwardbecause I'm going to sound like,
I think I'm so special.
I'm not, but what I do is reallyquite unique.
And so the person who engagedme, this is networking and

(22:08):
marketing in action, right?
The person who engaged me to dothis piece of work, I was her
training manager with anotherregulator about seven years ago.
So she reached out and said,I've just moved into this new
role.
We have a massive need.
There's no learning anddevelopment happening for our
regulatory staff.
Our time is of the essence.

(22:30):
We don't have the internalcapability.
What could you do?
So what I've pitched to them,which they've accepted, it feeds
into your comment aboutoutsourcing.
it's a partnership approach.
So I think of it like Star Trek.
So you have a spaceship voyager,big spaceship cruising through
space.
That is my client.

(22:50):
I'm the little runabout thatpulls up beside them and hooks
on for 12 months.
I do the build outside with themon the inside.
So they also have a team on theinside.
And the idea is that as we'redoing this together, that's
building their internalcapability.
And then once the project isfinished, they have the ability

(23:14):
to implement the e learnings,the workshops, the whole
internal program, and I willdetach and sail off in a
different direction.
So it is a slightly differentrole and it's the first time
I've done it this way and beenable to convince someone this
will work because most peoplewill come to you and go, just do
it for me.
No, that won't serve you in thelongterm.

Jane, there's a couple of things I heard in
there.
One is they're augmenting theirteam by finding you.
And you're not trying to,override them or run them.
You've said, I'm going tocollaborate with you.
You are now working on a projectthat you are saying is 12 months
long,'cause I was gonna say,what is the process to ensure

(23:57):
good learning and development?
So is it normal to do a 12months project?

It's just a big one because we're implementing their
entire learning and developmentapproach and strategy at the
same time, and we are doing anumber of e learning modules and
workshops.
But if you look at an individuale learning module, and these are
30 to 45 minutes long.
To make one of those end to endtakes four months.
It's a long process.

(24:21):
So we start with the clientprovides the materials that they
have available.
We have a content discoveryworkshop with the nominated
subject matter experts.
And from there, the InstructorDesigner writes an overview,
like a high level overview, howthey see the module working.
These are the learning outcomes,these are the topics, this is a
sketch of the activities, and weget the client to sign that off.

(24:44):
Once they've signed off theoverview, they're ready to go.
we go on to write thestoryboard, and that's all the
detail.
Every single word, interaction,image, instruction, everything
goes in the storyboard.
And I'm finding thosestoryboards are taking 10 days
to write and they're averagingaround 10,000 words, for a 30 to
45 minute module.

(25:05):
Storyboard goes to the clientfor review and feedback.
It comes back.
We take in their comments.
We send version two.
They sign off.
Then we go into development inthe software, our developer
creates us two versions.
There's alpha, which is thefirst version where the
storyboard's being convertedfrom the Word document into the

(25:26):
software.
That goes for checking.
It comes back.
We take in their feedback.
Next stage is what we call beta.
We're getting close to thefinish now.
Beta is where all the finalimages.
Interactions are all in there.
They check.
It comes back.
Then we do the final updates andwe send it to them for QA and

(25:48):
accessibility testing.
A couple of weeks after that, ifthey're happy, they sign off.
So it's an amazingly detailedprocess.
it goes through many hands.
the client's really happy withthe process.
They have maximum input cocreation, we're doing the
updates and guiding andcontrolling the direction of the
module.

(26:08):
By the time it gets finished,I've got to say, I'm lucky I've
got a really good team they lookreally schmick.
They look really sexy.
So we want them to look sexybecause then people want to do
it, right?
But it's a real process.
So an e learning module, fourmonths.
A workshop is much quicker, To,yeah, write it, go through the

(26:30):
checks and balances and get itapproved.
Yeah.

So when you say you use software, is there a
particular software that you useto feed it into or do you have
to create it from scratch?

No, the common e learning software packages are
either Articulate Storyline orArticulate RISE 360, which is a
simpler version, or AdobeCaptivate.
And the client told us theywanted us to use RISE.
So RISE has less functionsavailable than Storyline.

(27:01):
Storyline in Articulate is likethe big, fancy, you can do
anything you want, softwarepackage.
RISE is a simpler, quickerversion, that was the one they
said they wanted to use.
That's because that's whatthey're used to and they have a
license.
So when we transfer the sourcefiles over, they have the
capability if they want to makefuture updates or changes.

(27:23):
Yeah.

You also mentioned that you've got a
team.
Did you choose the team or howdid that come about?

I chose and it was evolutionary.
So when I put the proposal in, Ithought, oh, one instructional
designer, one e learningdeveloper and me.
This is going to be great.
But then when I looked at, sotheir procurement took six
months longer than they'dintended, but they still wanted
the deliverable at the sametimeframe.
So we started off thinking wehad 18 months, took them six

(27:49):
months for their procurement.
So we came down, we have 12months.
So when I did the schedule, Iwent, we'll never do this
without an additionalinstructional designer.
And then I went, Oh my God, nowI've got three subcontractors.
So I roped in cottage industry,I roped in number one son to do
the books, because now I've gotlike people sending me monthly

(28:11):
invoices that all have to beprocessed and accounted for.
And then I started to I'veinvolved a couple of extra
subject matter experts.
to make these videos, which thenmeant I had to find a
videographer.
So it was evolutionary and I wasjust lucky that in my network,
people could make goodrecommendations.
So the videographer was one ofmy instructional designers.

(28:32):
I spoke to Diana and said, Hey,you don't happen to know anyone.
She said actually I do.
Talk to Dan.
He's been great.

The difference is in episode five, you were
working on your own and here youare now project managing.
So you've moved up the tree alittle bit.
And you're managing a team.
So that's a big shift from whenwe first talked in episode 5 and
we're up to episode 55.
So we've talked about yoursteps, we've talked about tools,

(29:02):
we've talked about self directedlearning.
Let's talk about being selfemployed being in business for
yourself.
Now, you had a corporate careerfor many years.
So you went from, let's just say10 years, you were a self
employed musician, or gigmusician.
Now that was for big musicals.
that wasn't just going off anddoing gigs in a bar or

(29:23):
something.
This was no pubs.
And so now you're self employed.
Let's talk about.
we talked a bit before westarted this that you were still
working and you had a side gig.
So let's talk about theevolution from the side gig
through to today.
Tell us about that.

Okay, sure.
so I did the side gig for aboutfive or six years.
And like I said earlier, I gotan offer that was one of those
sliding door moments.
It was a project withCaterpillar, it was big enough
for me to really have to think,can I take on this project and
fit it in around my day job?
And I just made a decision andwent, you know what, I've always

(30:00):
wanted J Bass Learning to becomeindependent, like the thing that
I do to generate income.
I've had enough of this nonsenseworking as a government worker,
so I just took the leap, let'sdo it.
But I did that I've workedtowards it for some years, so
from a business perspective, Icould afford to take the risk.
Gradually moving myself furtherand further out of the city to

(30:24):
this regional area where it'scheaper to live, mortgages are
not as large, the environment'sfabulous, and I'm only an hour
and a half from Melbourne if Ihave to go.
So then it was just me trundlingalong, taking work that I could
do myself.
I'll take this job, I'll do it.
I'll take that job, I'll do it.
And it was like that untilNovember last year when this

(30:45):
client that I'm working with nowfinally sent their, requests for
quote through, and I looked atthe size of what they wanted.
We talked, and I knew, but whenI saw it written down, I went,
Oh my God, I'm going to have toget people in to help.
So I went and found this team.
The difference, like I'vemanaged people when I was in
corporate world, I had teams andI managed them, and I've got to
be honest, it's not something Ireally enjoy doing.

(31:07):
But this time it's differentbecause they're all
subcontractors, right?
So we're here to do a job, we'rehere to be professional, they're
great to collaborate with, but Idon't have to performance
manage, I don't have to do anyof that stuff, right?
There's a deliverable, we worktogether, we get it done, we
move it on.
Yeah, so it's good.
I've got one who is a bit overenthusiastic and that's all

(31:30):
good.

Okay.
So what have you learned aboutbusiness in this time?

That's a good question.
Take care of it, I came to thisone with a bit of a business
head, because I think it's, itcan be really romantic to go,
I'm going to be self employed.
I'm going to ditch my day job.
I'm going to forge my way in theworld.
But there's some reallypractical stuff that needs to be
considered.
Cashflow.
Have you got enough to keep yougoing between when your clients
are going to pay you?

(31:54):
Tax.
I know these are not veryinteresting things so I think
it's just understanding whatyour obligations are, what your
risk appetite is.
Are you going to be a completestress head if you finish one
job and the next one hasn'tturned up?
Are you going to sit in yourland room and fret about, why
hasn't the phone rung?
The phone hasn't rung.
I don't have a job.
What's going on?

(32:15):
Can you live in that sort ofmore uncertain uncertain world?
I'm doing that now.
I've had this 12 month project,Nigel.
It's August.
And I'm already going, Oh myGod, what am I going to do next
year?
I don't know what I'm going todo.
And I have to say to myself,stop it, Jane.
Sometimes you need a splitpersonality and I only mean that
like I'm self employed and I'm acompany, but I'm self employed.

(32:35):
In effect, I'm a sole trader.
So I am my manager.
So I get it.
The giggles sometimes when myemployee being me, it's, being
difficult or bolshie.
And then the manager, who isalso me, needs to take her
employee out for lunch and go,Settle, Petal.
You've got this.
It's good.

(32:56):
You can have fun in that space.
It means you're running from oneside of the desk to the other,
right?
Jane, the manager.
Now Jane performs a fluke andcomplain, Oh no, what are you
going to say to me?
Yeah, so I think there's a realpractical thing to this.
So the romantic side is great,the forging your own way, being
your own person.
But don't forget to take care ofthe business side of things.

(33:17):
Be aware of what your needs are,what kind of personality you
have, and whether working fromhome is going to suit.
Are you going to get lonely,twitchy, bored, distracted?
Because it does require somediscipline.
So I always make sure I'm in theoffice, which is where we are
now, by about 8.
30 in the morning.

(33:39):
Not every day is like we'resitting at a desk all day.
But that kind of discipline, andhow are you going to make your
weekends feel different ifyou're working from home, living
from home, how is the weekendgoing to feel different?
Doesn't sound like a big thing,but it actually really is.
Otherwise, you feel like I'mlocked in this building seven
days a week.
Working.
yeah, so one of my strategies onthe weekend is I don't set the

(34:02):
alarm.
Sounds like a really simplething, but it feels amazing if
you don't wake up until eighto'clock on a Saturday morning.
Oh, it's the weekend.
Look at me.
Yeah, look at me.
I'm on a weekend.
Yay.
So I think be realistic andreally understand what your
obligations are, what insurance,what you're paying for.
I'm a company so I have to dothings like work cover so you

(34:23):
don't get undone along the wayand end up having to go back to
full time employment.
Yeah, would be my thoughts.

One of the things I guess we need to consider
there is once you've got to acertain age in Australia, you
could probably retire and haveyour superannuation, but if
you've got a bit of a brain oryou're a professional in your
field, you don't want tonecessarily give up.
So it sounds like you're stillworking reasonably full time
hours.
You going to back off at somestage and, do less?

Probably.
I do think next year might be alittle bit less for a while
because this has beenridiculously intense.
So this project, I startedworking on it at the beginning
of January, and this is notabout, oh, it's not playing the
martyr.
But I have literally done six toseven days a week since the 3rd
of January.
So I am getting a bit tired, andI do think I want to slow it

(35:14):
down a bit.
But it depends what work comesup.
Interesting work withinteresting people.
If an interesting job turned upI wouldn't say no and in terms,
we are in a age where we couldlook at retiring, But what are
you going to do?
There's only so many overseastrips, so many gardens, so many
lunches you can go out for, andyou talk about keeping your
brain going.
This is where I think, the riskis for people of our age if we

(35:37):
stop doing things that requireus to think and solve problems
and be creative.
Okay so I'll be 64 next month.
I've set this up, that I couldpotentially be doing this for
another 10 years.

Yep.
I think that's the thing is towork out, to keep yourself
intellectually engaged in theworld, design the life.
But one of the things we didtalk about is, making sure your
financials are correct.
That you have got a bit of abuffer.
This is not something you jumpout and do if you haven't got a
reasonable place behind you orsome sort of assets.

(36:13):
One of the things I was going totalk about in terms of the
business, now that you'rerunning a team, that makes
things quite different, doesn'tit?
You've actually got to get thempaid because they're depending
on you to put your invoices inon time and for them to get
paid.

So what I did, you're completely right, and
that was the cashflow comment.
That was the biggest risk.
With a project of this size, andmy size as a company, that was
my biggest risk.
So I just said to the client,you pay 25 percent up front,
full stop.
And they went, Oh, okay.
That put the cash flow into mybusiness.
It's like an installment andthat gives me the buffer.

(36:50):
Because, yes, all thesubcontractors invoice on the
first of every month.
I've asked them to send that andthen they send them to Will, who
is doing the bookkeeping andmanaging in the background.
He processes and checks them.
So we've got budgeted checks ofthe number of hours we were
expecting that subcontractor tospend on this piece of work.

(37:12):
He does all that checking.
And then he lets me know.
And then it's I just payeverybody.
But yeah, there's a process thatgoes into that.
There are some tax implicationsin that space.
So I asked the team that theyall had to have their invoices
in by the 25th of June so wecould pay it out before the
30th.
Otherwise, the money I'm holdingto pay them looks like profit

(37:35):
when, it's not.
So it's just those sorts ofthings you need to be more alert
to.
And you get lots of questionsevery day from all these
different people.
So I've tried to be quick andresponsive.
So if one of them comes back andsays, Oh, I'm not sure what to
do here.
Or I've got this idea, we talkand we work it out so they can
keep doing their work becausethey are subcontractors.

(37:57):
So they're not employees.
It's not a matter of, we needyou to do this work by X date.
They'll do it to the standardthey can based on the support
they get, but it's not an easything to say can you add an
extra week?
No, they have other commitments.
They have other clients.
It's a tight ship and theschedule is ridiculous.
Like in terms of this, from aproject's perspective, there's

(38:19):
almost no slack in the schedule.
That's the biggest risk we carryis if someone gets sick or can't
quite get something done in thetimeframe we've asked, it makes
it a little bit morechallenging.
Cause then I'm talking, theclient understands what I'm
going by saying, hey, can we youWednesday?
That's how tight the scheduleis.

Now, that's interesting because what I'm
hearing is you've not only gotto manage yourself, you've got
to manage your subcontractorsand you've got to manage the
client.

Yeah.
This might be the only type ofproject I do because I'm the
only one.
Yeah, might be the only onebecause yes, it takes a lot of
time and energy, but we'relucky.
No, I'm not so lucky becausethere's a lot of talent that I'm
working with.
What we're producing is makingeverybody super happy and super
excited, which is what wewanted.

(39:10):
So yes, it's a lot of jugglingand corralling and, but if we're
getting the outcome, then I go,okay, it's worth it.
Yeah.
But we're getting there, Nigel.
We're delivering, nothing'sfalling over and we're not
beating up on each other.
So I figure it's a good day.

The one thing I can see there, and obviously
people are probably thinkingabout it in terms of running a
business.
How do you figure out how tocharge?
For a project like that?

I started with my first instructional designer and
I just asked her to give me anestimate, to say help me here,
I've got to write a proposal.
How long would you estimate towrite a 30 minute e learning
module storyboard because that'swhat she would do.
She said I'd do an overview thatwould take two days.
I would then get that approved.

(39:55):
I've got the storyboard thatwould take me nine days.
Okay, fine.
And then I went to the elearning developer and said,
okay, so what would you bethinking?
And out of all that, I justpieced it together.
And then it was interestingbecause, What you charge the
client is different to whatyou're paying your
subcontractors.
And then I had to engage inthat.
Okay.
So my subbies would charge me X.

(40:15):
But what's my actual charge outto the client, right?
Because that's where I sit.
Yeah.
So it was just four days.
It took me four days to writethis proposal and work it all
out.
And even now, and I know what alearnings that I've had over the
years, and I think allconsultants have this challenge.
I chronically underestimate howlong things will take.

(40:38):
Yep.
This project has been okay, butif I did it again, I know where
I would need to be morerealistic.
This will take this long andcost this much.
So there's a few little costblowouts in amongst the budget
that I've just had to absorbbecause I miscalculated.
Yeah, so if you're doing quotes,I think you and I have talked

(40:59):
about this in the past, writeit, then add 50%, you're
guaranteed going to beunderestimating the effort that
you're going to have to make.

Most people underestimate how long projects
take, especially learning anddevelopment projects.

Yeah, I had another client, a state based client,
Write me an induction program.
It's really urgent.
Do it as quick as you can.
But when I sat down and just dida bit of a quick reconnoiter,
how did we go?
On that particular project, Iended up spending twice as long
as estimated.
Yeah but there's nothing you cando about that.

(41:33):
Except learn from it and getbetter at setting expectations
up front with the client aboutwhat you are there to do, how
long it will take, and whatyou're not there to do, and how
if they don't cooperate in termsof doing their role, then that
cost becomes theirs.

That's a wonderful conversation.
At that point, we've probablybeen going for about an hour
now, so let's start finishingup.
Is there anything else you'dlike to add?

I don't think so.
Just that I made that commentearlier, but it's not for
everyone.
But I've got to say, if it isfor you, it's fabulous.
We talk about the challenges andthings, but would I go back to
being a worker for someone else?
No, not in a million years.
Hell no.
Would I like, so I think that'sjust it.
Don't be afraid.
Just Plan it.

(42:23):
Understand what the risks mightbe.
Know your target audience, andgo for it.
Do you know what I mean?
And don't don't, I spend a loton overheads, so I don't have a
lot of overheads.
I'm not hiring a shop or, anddon't even worry about getting
into, paid social mediamarketing or any of that stuff
yet.
Leverage your network and havefun.

And that sounds wonderful.
Jane, thank you very much.
How would you like people tocontact you or find you?

My email address is probably a good place to start.
So that's jane@jbsselearning.comau or the website, JBass
learning.com au.
Or I'm on LinkedIn, you can findme there as well.

Okay, and I'll put all of that in the show
notes.
So thank you, Jane.
It's been wonderful speaking toyou again.
50 episodes later.

Thanks, Nigel.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Navigating Self-Employment in L&D: Jane Hudson’s Success Story

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Navigating Self-Employment in L&D: Jane Hudson’s Success Story

24/7 News: The Latest