Bridging the Gap Between Law and Heartache in Family Conflicts (repost)

Send us a text

Join us as we sit down with Nancy Purpole, to peel back the layers of divorce law and the importance of client engagement. Nancy's journey from the courtroom offers a unique vantage point, as she discusses the subtle nuances of family law and the emotional toll it can take. We delve into how one's past can shape communication in relationships, the shifting sands of legal acceptance for LGBTQ+ individuals, and the impact of upbringing on one's ability to navigate legal challenges.

This episode is a roller coaster of emotions, touching on the heartache that comes with custody battles and the contentious nature of using children as pawns. We share poignant stories from Nancy's career that highlight the complexities of attorney-client dynamics and the ethical quandaries lawyers face in family law. The discussion also sheds light on the surprising number of divorces arising from COVID-19 disagreements, serving as a stark reminder of the unforeseen challenges in marriage and the legal framework that surrounds it.

As we wrap up, we tackle the tough questions about advocacy, particularly when it comes to children's welfare post-divorce. We also share the significance of role models during life's transitions and the necessity for resilience in the face of adversity. And because we understand the need for levity amidst serious topics, we end on a lighter note debating holiday nutcrackers and the virtues of vodka, inviting you to join in on the fun. This conversation with Nancy Purpole is not just an exploration of the law—it's a journey through the human experience, marked by growth, struggle, and the quest for justice.

Support the show

Want to host a Podcast? Buzzsprout can help! Use this link to Find out More.

Check out Paul's Website

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hey guys, this is Andrew from Things.
I Want to Know.
If you like the podcast, pleaseleave a five-star rating.
Don't really know why this isimportant, but it is, so let's
get the voice out.
Also, don't forget to check outthe podcast Paul G's Corner, a
podcast where everyone gets avoice.
Have you ever wanted to sitdown in front of an attorney and

(00:50):
just ask questions?
Have you ever wanted to learnwhat to do in court, what not to
do in court and what the lawreally states, even though
sometimes it's very unfair?
And today our guest is NancyPurpole she's going to be able

(01:10):
to answer some of those exactquestions.
So, nancy, how are you doingtoday?

Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm doing very well, except I woke up with allergies,
so I apologize to your audienceif I sound raspy.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Oh don't worry, I'm pretty raspy too after just
getting over the flu, sexy raspy.
I don't know about that Tryingnot to cough in the mic, and I'm
just tired of coughing.
The flu is a pain in the butt,guys.
It's flu A.
I even had my flu shot and Istill caught the flu.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
It was a bad flu man.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Well, my kid went to spend the night at somebody's
house and then brought it to us.
So no more having sleepovers.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
You're actually talking to my ghost.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
I died from it, you died from it.
Yes, this could get interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
I'm a ghost, you're a ghost.
I've talked to enough mediums.
I got them all together andthey're channeling me all at
once to finish the episode.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
So what's the one?
That's a.
I thought you had the positiveenergies when you walked in the
room.
Yeah, really.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
I am pretty shocking.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Sorry, couldn't help it.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
So I guess for me, I've had a little experience in
the court system.
I have children, I'm divorcedand I also had a little bit of I
guess you'd say backgroundknowledge with being a nurse,
paralegal, so I kind of have alittle bit of this.
But I've always just wanted topick somebody's brain, because
when you go to the attorneyyou're obviously needing their

(02:35):
assistance.
So what do you think is one ofthe most number one hands-down
worst thing a client could dowhen they're coming to you?

Speaker 2 (02:45):
I think the worst thing they can do is not really
know what they want out of theinterview, what they want the
attorney to accomplish for them,just because you hire an
attorney.
If you're going and we're justgoing to talk about divorce at
the moment, if you're going andwe're just going to talk about
divorce at the moment, if you'regoing to go through a divorce

(03:06):
and you hire an attorney, youare under a misconception.
If you think the attorney isgoing to take care of everything
, they can't take care ofeverything without your help.
You are the only one who knowsabout your case.
If there's a car accident, theaccident has already happened.

(03:30):
You've got investigators thatare going to tell you how the
accident happened.
You're going to have witnessesthat are going to say how the
accident happened.
In a divorce, the divorce is.
You're still living your life.
The problems that you had arestill going on and you really
need to go to the attorney andexplain to them what your goals

(03:52):
are.
You have to come with yourfinancial information.
You have to come with yourgoals with respect to custody
and you have to come with yourgoals with respect to
distribution of property and youhave to come with your goals
with respect to distribution ofproperty.
So the biggest misconception isgoing in and thinking that the
attorney is going to do it allfor you.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
So I want to get to just a little bit here.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your credentials, so
people know who we're talking to?

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Oh sure, my name?
Well, obviously you know.
My name is Nancy McCall and Iwas a critical care nurse before
I became an attorney.
And Andrea was a nurse beforeshe became a paralegal, that's
true.
So she jumped, just like I did.
In any event, I became anattorney and became a divorce

(04:41):
attorney, not by choice, bycircumstance.
When I was hired I was the onlywoman in the office, and my
first day I was hired to dodefense malpractice, and the
first day on my job I had 75divorce files.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
And I went to the senior manager and I said I was
hired to do defense malpractice.
I'm going through a divorcemyself.
I'm really not interested indivorce.
And he leaned across the deskand put his finger an inch from
my nose and said you're notgoing to make it here.
You do what we tell you to doand you're a woman and women do

(05:41):
divorce work.
Ouch, well, you know what?
I'm the middle of sevenchildren and when you tell me I
can't do something and I've beensurgery, you know, without an
amylase and they may have aruptured spleen and you have to
say no, I'm not sending himuntil you order the amylase.
So I mean, I was sort of usedto being trying to be bullied.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
And so you've kind of branched out as well and
written some books too.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Oh, yes, I actually wrote a textbook with some
people from the University ofPennsylvania.
It was Advanced Concepts ofClinical Nursing and it was
published by JB Lippincott in1973, so you can guess how old I
am.
But in any event, the book wasadopted by a number of nursing

(06:32):
schools and also many hospitalsstarted to promulgate all the
protocols we wrote about in thatbook because it was advanced
concepts in clinical nursing.
We were trying to improvepatient outcome by changing some
of the old protocols.
So I went to the administrationin the hospital that I was
working at, as I said in theemergency room, and I said you

(06:53):
know you are not adopting any ofthese things.
I've written this for you, I'vedone this certificate of need
for you and can you tell me whyyou're not thinking about this?
And the administrator said tome you're not thinking about
this.
And the administrator said tome you're a nurse and at this
hospital the doctors are theones who are going to make the
protocols so of course that was1973.

(07:15):
Yeah, I don't think that wouldhappen again, but in any event,
yeah I don't know um.

Speaker 3 (07:21):
It depends on the hospital I've heard some stories
that I won't repeat, but Ithink honestly, your book was
used in my nursing school.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
That that sounds so familiar.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Well, in any event, I went to this woman who had been
just hired by the hospital.
She was a lawyer but she hadbeen a nurse and she was hired
to do sort of you know, examinethe different protocols which I
was trying to change becausethere were some significant
issues at the hospital I wasworking at.
In any event, I said to herthey're not, they're not

(07:56):
listening to me, you know.
And I gave her everything I hadgiven to the administration and
she said I'll look at this andI'll see what I can do for you,
but if you want things to change, go to law school, you'll have
power.
So that's why I went to lawschool.
I had every intention of goingback into the hospital, setting
in administration and changingthings that I knew.

(08:19):
I mean, I entered nursing, Igraduated in 1968.
So I saw all the changes and somany times when things would
develop, we weren't ready forthat.
The nursing staff, even theinterns, the residents, some of
the doctors, weren't ready forall of the changes.

(08:40):
And there were so many patientswho, frankly, I'll be honest
with you, were guinea pigs, andyou know, I mean, when they
first came out with they used tocall them.
Oh, my goodness, there was acertain catheter, a bayonet
catheter, and it was.

(09:01):
It's pretty premature, I mean,it's primitive compared to what
is available now, but what wouldhappen is you'd slip the
catheter, which is plastic,through this thing that looked
like a bayonet, into the vein ofthe patient and it would sear
off the plastic in five minutes.
Three minutes later the patientwould be dead with an embolism.

(09:22):
No, I mean, I saw that manytimes, you know, and you know
what can I say?
So many?
I saw many things that I was sodesperate to change.
But the only way I could changeit was to become a lawyer and
then go back into administration.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
And since then you've been in the family law and
you've you've seen someinteresting things there too, I
suppose um, yes, those things Ican't really talk about and then
you've written a book oh well,I know I've written a book about
related.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
It's a novel, it's fiction okay, okay um, it's a
debut novel.
It's called called Around whichAll Things Bend, and that's love
.
Love is the thing around whichwe bend to get love and give
love, until the emotional tollthat it takes breaks us.
And it's the story about ayoung man who comes back from

(10:17):
Afghanistan and he's a verywealthy rancher in Montana and I
started writing this bookbefore Yellowstone, by the way,
I really did, and whenYellowstone came out I went.
Somebody stole my idea, but inany event, he's the heir to this

(10:37):
you know enormousYellowstone-sized ranch, his
mother's widowed.
She pressures him to settledown, get married, pump out some
heirs to inherit the propertyand the wealth.
So he sort of succumbs to itand gets engaged with this woman
who they're very compatible inthe bedroom, but they don't have

(10:59):
the same values.
And he realizes that rightbefore the wedding and he breaks
the engagement.
And then the story is about thisevolution and the consequences.
And what happens in the storyis his two army buddies come and
he couldn't call them offbecause they were en route to

(11:20):
come to the ranch when he breaksoff the engagement and so they
show up and one of them askedhim to help him with something
that he's got a problem with inCharleston, south Carolina.
So this guy goes to Charleston,south Carolina and, lo and
behold, he falls in love withthis guy's sister.
And it's just.
It's a.

(11:40):
It's a nice story.
It's getting really goodreviews on Amazon.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
Now is it?
Is it a self-published typething, or did you get a?

Speaker 2 (11:49):
It's what they call a hybrid published.
As I said, you know I'm alittle long at the tooth to try
to get traditionally published.
Yeah Well, by the time you getan agent.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
Yeah, trust me, I know.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
And then the agent has to sell that right and then
it takes two or three years.
I mean I don't want to do itposthumously, I want the book to
be out there now.
I mean I'm giving lectures, I'mon a lot of podcasts talking
about prenuptial agreements,things you should talk about to

(12:26):
your fiance, excuse me, or yourintended, before you get married
.

Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
Find out if you're compatible before you get
married.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
It always helps, you know.
Yeah, divorce is not fun.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
Find out if they have a lot of debt before you get
married debt before you getmarried so that after you get
married and you find out they'rein debt for 40 or $50,000, are
they expecting you to pay thatwithout a prenuptial agreement
or some other agreement?
Yeah, so many people arerealizing after they get married

(12:59):
that their spouse has come tothe marriage with significant
debt which was not disclosed.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
See, I always look at the newspaper to see who hit
the lottery.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
Well, it's called financial infidelity.
That's the new thing.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Oh wow, they even have a term for it.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Financial infidelity how does that work?

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Fidelity?

Speaker 3 (13:20):
How does that work?
Financial infidelity is whenyou have not disclosed, or you,
serotypically, serotypically,serotypically, let's go, and
then we all know at that point,I'll spit that out no-transcript

(14:03):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
Well, think about it, though.
I mean, you could be someonethat's got a ton of debt and
you're marrying this personwho's probably has no debt, and
you're using their income on topof yours to pay off your debt.
That would kind of tend to makethe other spouse a little
perturbed, to say the least.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
Maybe I mean, it depends, you know.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
It depends on the person, I guess.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
Maybe I mean it depends, you know, it depends on
the person, I guess.
But again you should probably agood idea to tell the person
hey, I've got four hundredmillion dollars in debt.
I don't really know how to fixthat.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
I had a close purse friend of mine that didn't find
out that her significant otherhad a child, much less behind on
child support until she filedher taxes.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
What, yes, child support until she filed her
taxes.
What, yes, he failed todisclose he had a child for
which he owed child support.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, I was just like wow, I'm so sorry, so obviously
you have to do the injuredspouse filing and basically her
refund was delayed significantly.
Like she didn't get a refunduntil like April or May of that
year, I presume.
She got a divorce.

(15:10):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, she got adivorce a couple years later.
She was trying to be, you know,make it work, kind of thing,
but yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
What women try to do.
Women always try to make itwork.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
Not all the time.
No for you, Not all the timeFor you, you tried hard, I tried
to make it work, I tried to doeverything I was supposed to do
and I was just married to anidiot.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
Well, I was married to an idiot too.
I think we've all been marriedto idiots.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
Well, mine was pretty stupid.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
He seriously thinks that her IQ probably level or
her ability is.
She's a woman that does notwant to grow up.
It still wants to be 12 or 13.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
And you didn't see that before you got married.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
Well, she was 19 and I was thought that I was
worthless.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
So oh yeah, One of those things.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
I was 26.
She was 19.
Oh yeah, one of those things Iwas 26.
She was 19.
I thought that I was aworthless person, because
everyone in my life had told methat I was a worthless person,
that I, you know listen to.
And I didn't understand thedifference and I figured.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
You know it's interesting.
You raise that issue becauseyou said that you studied or
you're interested in psychology.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
The new theory about communication and I don't know
how new it is, but it's nowbecome accepted and you really
learn in your family of origin,your self-worth, how to
communicate your level ofconfidence in yourself and what
you reflect out in terms of whatyou think you deserve in life.

(16:49):
And if you don't work throughthose issues before you go into
a relationship, it ends indisaster every time.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
It can.
Yes, for sure.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
It makes sense.
I mean your whole basis of whoyou are and what you feel is
normal is based upon your family.
So I mean that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
Well, I, you know for me, I just decided one day I'm
not going to do this anymore.
This is stupid.
I hate it and it's doingnothing but hurting me, and I
adopted the reasoning of if youdon't like me, that's your
problem.
Because I like me, that's yourproblem, because I'm not a bad

(17:30):
person.
I do care, I have empathy, Itry.
I don't let people run over me,but you know that's it and I'm,
I'm me.
My mantra for years was I am me, andrea, and I need your help.
If you like our episodes,please give us a five-star
rating and a review.
Not sure exactly how that helpsus, but it does and it makes
people want to listen when theysee that five stars and a good

(17:53):
review from you.
So go to wherever you'relistening to your podcast apple,
itunes, spotify, iheart media,wherever and hit that five stars
so I got a question to ask you.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Just I'm curious, I we live in arkansas.
It's a little different here,obviously probably much
different than other areas ofcountry.
Do you feel like family law hasevolved where it's a little bit
more accepting for couples tosplit due to, I don't know,
being gay, trans couples, youknow, gay lesbian couples?

(18:34):
Do you feel like maybe that'sgetting better in the court
system?
I guess the reason why I'masking is because when my
parents split this was in 2000and very rural part of this
state or I don't know.
We're 10, 15 years behind.
Probably everybody else At leastand my mother obviously was
upset.
I mean, I would be too, afterbeing married to somebody for 25

(18:56):
years.
All of a sudden they saythey're gay, yeah, so Sorry.
She.
If you knew her mother, you'd belike yeah, yeah, well she tried
to slam my father in court forbringing up constantly him being
gay, and it was like it wasconstantly being discussed and
so I couldn't watch the courtproceedings anymore.
I just packed up my car andmoved to Michigan to go to

(19:17):
school out of get out of it.
Feel like that's getting better, or does some areas of the
country still have issues withthat, where people put their
more of their personal opinionsinto the courtroom versus trying
to be totally, you know,objective, and there's the facts
well, I think that's a goodquestion.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
Um, honestly, I think it depends on the area of the
country.
I don't think that would betolerated in the Northeast, no,
or California, or, you know,even in the Midwest.
Unfortunately, in the DeepSouth it is still.
There's so much prejudice andbias against the gay people that

(20:00):
a judge absolutely would not,would really not, countenance
that if it weren't relevant tothe case.
In other words, was she sayingthat your father was having an
affair with another man and thenthe basis was infidelity, and
then she should mention it once.

(20:21):
He was having an affair withanother gentleman and he's gay.
And you know, I want a divorce.
But I don't know many judgeswho would want to hear that over
and over and over again,probably in Arkansas, I don't
know.
Maybe they would tolerate it.

(20:41):
I think judges I don't knowwhat they'd tolerate it or not.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
I think it depends.
If you're down in Little Rock,it probably wouldn't be
tolerated Northwest Arkansas nowbut if you get down in Newton
County or if you go down toArkansas County or somewhere
close to the Louisiana border,you probably would be tolerated.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
Because I just know, as a kid I was.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
How could you even fight that?

Speaker 1 (21:08):
20, 21,.
My parents split.
I remember that was my firstreal taste of law, I guess you
could say.
And so I remember thinking whathas this got to do with
anything?

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Well, that's what I was saying, a judge would say,
or the other lawyer would objectand relevancy.
I mean it's.
It's relevant maybe once, butnot over and over and over again
.
I mean the judge just sat thereand let this go on.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah for a while and basically just said you know he
did cheat on my mother for a manlet's just put that out there
it was but it was like she wastrying to slam his business and
everything as him being gay andit was not really highly
accepted around here in the2000s.
Now it's probably not really somuch of a big deal, but then it
was a huge big deal and so itjust kind of as a kid watching

(21:57):
all this young young lady, itkind of put a bad taste my mouth
in general for all of it,because I looked at my mother
differently after that, I lookedat the court system differently
after that and I just kind oflike I'm out, I'm moving up
North and I went to school upNorth but I'm in CASA now and,
um, I deal with kids in fostercare and I've kind of been a

(22:21):
roundabout advocate for otherchildren that are trans and
things like that or gay orlesbian within the foster care
system.
As far as like advice forpeople, because of my own
personal experience with mychildren, but I've been told
that even some judges have ahard very much accepted.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
So is gay and lesbian and queer I mean.
But it depends upon differentarea of the country.
You know, arkansas Is still.
Some rural parts of Arkansas,as you said are still have a lot
of prejudice and bias againstpeople.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
West Memphis is not changed much since they
railroaded those four kids.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, that's probably true.
Yeah, I don't know if you knowabout the West Memphis Four.
Is it Four, Six, Four or Six?
I don't know?
But anyways, they're stilltrying to go on appealing the
situation that got them arrestedfor way back in the 80s, they
had to acknowledge guilt withoutacknowledge guilt to get out of
jail.
Yeah, I forget they had toadmit.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
They did it without admitting guilt.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
I forget the legal term for it, but it's something
like admitting guilt withoutsaying you actually did it.
I don't know, it's one thingthat got them out of jail, but
it's.
They were juveniles, though,weren't they?
Were they?
I think the they were juveniles, though, weren't they?
Were they?
I think the they were tried asadults.
Tried as adults.
I think they were young adults,maybe like 18, 19, 16,

(23:52):
somewhere in there, but I guesswhat advice would you give for
people?
Because for where we live,people or anyone lives, they
kind of only get thispreconceived notion about the
law and the police and whateverbased upon what they see on TV.
It's nothing like TV, correct?
I mean real life.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
It is nothing on TV.
It's nothing like on TV.
And I think the biggest thingis that, as I said before and I
stand by it the best thing youcan do proactively is to really
understand what your goals are.
If your goal is to get moneyfrom your spouse, the worst

(24:34):
thing you want to do is to tryto put them out of business.
If your mother was afteralimony I mean her attorney
allowed her to do that to try toruin his business I mean her
attorney allowed her to do thatto try to ruin his business she
would have been better off justnot trying to ruin his business,
and you know well.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
Arkansas is a state.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
We're not an alimony state.
So yeah, but you can't getalimony.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
in Arkansas you can get child support.
That's about it.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
You still can't get alimony in.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
Arkansas.
It's very rarely, I was told byan attorney.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
In certain cases you can.
Certain cases, yes, but it'svery rare.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
It's rare, very rare.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
I know that your statute provides for it.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's just extremely rare,
basically.
I know my ex-husband tried togo after alimony with me because
I made more than him and thejudge just shot it down as a no.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
That guy's an idiot too, though he's like showing up
in court drunk.
He's not going to get alimony.
The judge is like no, you're anidiot.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
Here's something you might be able to speak to.
What advice would you givewomen out there who are maybe
going through a divorce or somesort of marital breakup or
separation, where they feelthey're being stalked and
harassed?

Speaker 2 (25:51):
Well, once again, do you have a statute, a stalking
statute, in your state?

Speaker 1 (25:56):
That's a really good question.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Because I'm not from you know, I'm not familiar with
Arkansas law per se.
I know that Arkansas, you know,does provide for distribution
of property, child supportcustody.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, the basics.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
But not all states have stalking statutes.
True police and the policewould know if there's a stalking
statute and then you know youwould ask them to bring an
action on your behalf or helpyou bring an action on your

(26:31):
behalf.
The problem with the stalkingand protection from abuse or
restraining orders you may callthat in your state is that
they're just a piece of paper.
That's true.
That is just a piece of paperand you have to be really
careful about and I hate to saythis because I'm very much a

(26:53):
woman's advocate in thosecircumstances but I've seen if
you file a restraining order oran anti-stalking order and you
have them picked up, it incitesthem to the extent they become
more violent sometimes andthat's that.
That's the double-edged sword.
So you really need to consultan attorney so stalking in

(27:17):
arkansas is.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
Stalking in the first degree is when someone
knowingly engages in a course ofconduct that places another
person in fear for their safetyand either is violating an order
of protection, has previousstalking convictions or says
they are armed with a deadlyweapon, and it's a Class C
felony, arkansas Criminal5-71-229A, not sure.

(27:48):
5-71-229a.
And stalking in the seconddegree occurs when someone
knowingly harasses anotherperson and makes a terroristic
threat to make another personfear death or serious physical
injury to themselves or a familymember, which is a class d
felony 571-229b.
And in the third degree becausewhen someone knowingly commits
an act that would normally placea person in fear for another
person's safety, which is571-229-C.

(28:09):
So it really you can makethreats all day long as long as
you don't threaten them withphysical harm.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
It's true.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
And then there's nothing anybody can do about it,
because it doesn't cover that,because it doesn't cover that
Well, I mean you could get arestraining order if, depending
upon if they were livingtogether previously and there
was any domestic violence in anyway, I mean you wouldn't wait
until they're stalking.
Usually they don't just startstalking.

(28:39):
Usually there's a, there's athread here.
It starts with domesticviolence, intimidation and, you
know, putting a person in fearof their physical safety, and
then you get a restraining order, and your statute just
mentioned that.
And that would be the logicalreason why they mention it,

(29:03):
because then the stalking startsit.
Because then the stalkingstarts, because if, if you get a
restraining order and theycan't get near you, they stalk
at a distance that's true.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
yeah, that just incites them.
So because I've had severalfriends and people I've known
over the years that have hadissues with this and they felt
like they weren't being heard oror things like that, and I'm
always like document, document,keep calling, keep calling, keep
calling, to the point that atone of my friends, her uh, the
police department told her tostop calling because it wasn't
really necessarily throughverbal threats, it was through

(29:33):
email, like he was completely,100% contacting all her
relatives, all her friends onFacebook, her work.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
All you have to do is get you a really burly looking
boyfriend close to Facebook.
This is my new boyfriend, youknow.
I mean notice it all kind ofstops whenever I come around.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right, right, right You're bigand burly, you can scare
everybody.
So you want to have my friendsborrow you.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
I'm scary in the first place.
I mean it's weird Babies andpuppies, they know better.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
So anybody out there is being socked Babies and
puppies love me.
What about cats?

Speaker 3 (30:14):
Cats are cats.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
Cats love you.
My cats love you.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
Not all the cats.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Well, cats are like people.
They're very unique.
You're a cat rancher.
I'm not a cat rancher.
I live in the country.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
People dump pets I take care of them.
I try to find them homes.
You don't try to find themhomes.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
It's really hard to get people to adopt pets.
Anybody want a cat out there.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
You know how to cut a hole of us yeah, and or if you
want to give to her nutcrackerfund because she needs more
nutcrackers.
She says she has 472nutcrackers at her work.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
I do not.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
And about 9,000 of them at home.
She had to buy a whole othertrailer just for her house so
that she could put thenutcrackers in there.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
I like nutcrackers, but I'm not obsessed with them,
Geez man.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
You guys are making me laugh.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
I have a few of them that sit on my desk at work.
You have more than a few ofthem that sit on my desk at work
, because we're told you havemore than a few.
It's one, two, six.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
That's more than a few.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Well, I like them.
I can't help it.

Speaker 3 (31:13):
This is not hamsters.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
This is true.
That'd be weird.
I don't even want to thinkabout that, man, oh Lord.
So what is some of the craziestthings in family law that you
wish people would not do?
I know you talked about like.
I've had friends that are likewouldn't listen to their
attorneys and wonder why thingsnever got done.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
Don't poop on the judge's desk.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yes, that would probably get you contempt of
court or at least a psychiatriceval.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
Well, you know, if you need a place to stay for
three days, you should do that,because it's free room and board
at that point no.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Oh gosh, no, Don't take his advice, people.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
Well, I mean, you can , if you want.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Because I thought about doing family type stuff as
a side work for a nurseparalegal but I don't know, I
don't know how you do it.
I mean, I'm sure you havepeople come in there that want
to like completely, 100%, takeeverything from their spouse, or
people in there that are wonderwhy they're going through a
divorce because you know theygot caught cheating.
I imagine you've seen everyside of the good, bad and the

(32:21):
ugly of life in general.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
I have.
I've seen that as a nurse andI've certainly seen it as a
divorce attorney.
I think the worst thing that aperson can do in a divorce is,
with all due respect to yourmother, is what she did to you.
You should never, ever involveyour children in your divorce.
I don't care how old they areand whether they're 21 or 31 or

(32:49):
51.
You don't involve your childrenin the divorce.
You certainly don't bring themto court to watch the court
proceedings and have your mother, you know, try to denigrate
your father.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
That's just not a healthy, and some people use the
children as leverage againsteach other.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
And I'm telling you that's the worst thing you can
do, and I just we just discussed.
You learn in your family oforigin just because your family
of origin is getting a divorce,that doesn't mean they don't
become your family of origin.
They're still your family oforigin.
Doesn't mean they don't becomeyour family of origin.
They're still your family oforigin and that you're learning

(33:31):
that what you do, what you're ina dispute with someone, is you
don't try to resolve it, youdon't try to behave in a civil
way.
You try to destroy the otherperson.
When they grow up and they getin a relationship, that's their
excuse me attitude when they getinvolved in a dispute with
their spouse.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
Well, and I know some attorneys that they're like
it's interesting becauseattorneys tend to get very
competitive.
I've got to win.
Prosecuting attorneys are theworst about this.
They have to win or they'lldismiss the whole case and just
bury it that they even thoughtabout trying to bring something

(34:08):
up if they all of a suddenrealize they're not going to win
.
Federal prosecutors are reallybad about that.
That's why their win rate islike 95 in federal cases,
because they'll bury the onesthat they just drop because they
know they're going to lose.
Rather than lose, they'll dropit and make it go away and and
pretend it never happened.
And so attorneys tend to getreally, really competitive with

(34:32):
the other attorney across thetable and I don't think that's
fair to anybody, especially thechildren.
When the attorney's gettingthat competitive, I know they're
trying to do what the what theclient told them they wanted,
but isn't there some room forthe attorney to inject their own
you know a little bit ofmorality into a situation where
one spouse is just being afucking asshole?

Speaker 2 (34:55):
well, the problem is the adversarial nature of, of
you know, attorneys is inherent,just like you were talking
earlier about you know someinherent things with respect to
men versus women.
You know there's an inherentyou know quality about attorneys
they, they're very adversarial,pardon my language, by the way,
pardon, pardon my language.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
I didn't mean to throw you off with that.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
In any event.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
I guess with me.
When I went to the attorney toseek my divorce, I told him what
was going on.
I knew what to expect.
I figured y'all want to knoweverything about my divorce.
I told them what was going on.
I knew what to expect.
I figured y'all want to knoweverything about my life.
And they, I kind of told themwhat I wanted to do and they're
like the attorney turned to meand goes what do you want me to
do?
And I'm like I didn't go to lawschool, what do you think we
should do?
And he just kind of stared atme and blinked a little bit and
he's like, okay.

(35:43):
I'm like no, I'm here to seekyour advice.
You tell me what is the law,what can we do?
What's going to make this fair?
I know nothing about this.
So is that a?
Is it typical?
For like to me, the attorneyshould run the show.
You all know better than I do.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
No, when I say you should go prepared, I don't mean
you should go and research thelaw before you get there.
I mean, in this day and ageeverybody knows that if you get
a divorce, there are threethings that are going to be
discussed.
If you have children, childrenare going to be discussed.
So you want to know what kindof custody arrangement are you

(36:21):
going to?
I don't know.
I don't think Arkansas has ajoint custody statute, does it?

Speaker 1 (36:27):
You could do joint custody.
It's just extremely challenging.
You have to be so far livingclose together and things like
within the same town or a coupleof times away.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
It's not a statute, it's not mandatory, like in
Florida, it's automatically50-50.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
No, with ours.
Typically and fortunately whichI don't 100% agree with this it
tends to go with the mom.
I think sometimes dads can beentitled to full custody if the
mom's done a good mother,obviously, but um, no, I wasn't
even discussed that.
Um, the only thing I think hasmade me slightly angry is
sometimes custody goes towhoever makes more money well,

(37:01):
yeah, it's totally up to thejudge in arkansas at any time a
judge.

Speaker 3 (37:05):
If the judge determines that one parent has a
pattern of an intentionallycreating conflict in an attempt
to disrupt or a current orpending joint custody
arrangement and there is nothingthe judge can order to reduce
the area of conflict, then hecan change stuff.
But it's not.
There's no actual, there's noactual statute for it.

(37:27):
It's all up to the judge.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
Each county has different.
I should say standard order ofcustody, title IX.
So that can get kind of hairytoo.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
But the woman or the man, they need to go to the
attorney's office, you know,returning to that thread, what
is the worst thing you can do?
The worst thing you can do isnot know what it is you want and
go in and expect the attorneyto tell you what you should get.
You have to know do you wantprimary custody, do you want
joint custody?
Do you want to limit or do youwant to do a petition to have

(37:59):
the other, your spouse or thefather or mother, get
psychological counseling?
I don't know if they have thatin your state, but you have to
have some sense as to what it isyou want.
You're going to have to discusscustody.
If you have children.
You're going to have to discussthe house.
You're going to have to discusssupport.
I mean, those three are a given.

(38:21):
Then the assets come into it,right.
So you're going to have to havea sense of, you're going to
have to know what the person has, and if you don't know what the
other person has, then you haveto go to a lawyer who will do
what's called discovery, and youknow what discovery is oh yeah,
they ask questions, you need tofill them out, you need to turn

(38:43):
in information they want.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
They turn your life upside down if they want to's
correct.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
But you know most, most, most clients think that
the judge is going to read itbefore they go in the courtroom.
The judge is never going toread your discovery, ever, ever,
even if it's a big malpracticeor an accident.
It's got 1700 cases yeah,there's no way.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
You don't have time for that.

Speaker 3 (39:05):
I mean, somebody barbecuing, oh my gosh, what.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Let me ask you this.
This is something that I've hadto argue with people all the
time with.
They're like, well, if he's notpaying child support, then he
shouldn't have, he shouldn't seehis kids, and I'm like that's
not how this works.
No no it Can't withholdvisitation because of back child
support.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
That is in Title IX.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
Yeah, because I've had lots of people because I had
a lot of issue with not gettingpaid child support and you know
people are like well, just makeit not seem.
I'm like I can't do thatbecause it's not right for the
kids.
Number one and like and numbertwo, I don't want to go to jail
because I'm withholding custody,yeah, so I can't use custody as
leverage.
No ever, ever.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
It's not right so and you can't even um, I mentioned
prenuptial agreements before.
You can't put anything aboutcustody in a prenuptial
agreement either.
Really, it's just not.
You can't deal with it well,any way, shape or form if you
don't have kids going into amarriage then, how can you do a
prenup on who gets custody,because it's talking about

(40:14):
things that haven't happened.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah, yeah, it makes sense.
So what is a prenup?
I guess my preconceived notionfor people out there I'm just
going to play like I don't knowwhat it is.
Think, oh, I'm going to put inhere that you know, joe Blow
can't have my big expensivesports car if we divorce.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
First off, you married a guy named Joe Blow.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
Excuse me.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
You guys are making me laugh so much.
You guys are, so are you dating?
I mean you seem so informal.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, we are, we're engaged.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Oh my gosh, you guys are so hysterical, I guess.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
I'm just curious because to me, I think, maybe
because I still have some sortof traditional values in my head
feels like a prenups, like well, when we do decide to divorce
the kitchen up a lot.

Speaker 3 (41:03):
is that not what you're talking about?
No, Okay.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
When we do decide to divorce.
This is what I'm going to get.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
You get the dishes.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
I get the dishes.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
Yeah, I'll get stewed paper plates.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
You get the dirty kitchen then Well, you know, a
prenuptial agreement isn't whatpeople used to think it is and,
frankly, more millennials aregetting prenuptial agreements
because they're getting marriedolder and I don't know again,
this is, you know, there are 50states.

(41:33):
Every state has a differentpopulation, different culture,
different thoughts, but inCalifornia and the East Coast
they're getting, they're comingto the marriage later in life,
between 28 and for women isbetween 28 and 30 and men is

(41:53):
between um 30 and 34.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
That's the average age now in the united states
makes a lot of sense, becausewomen tend to marry old they.
They look for someone who'salready more established exactly
which means they're going tolook for an older man.
That's always the way it is.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
Makes sense.

Speaker 3 (42:11):
It's strange, but the statistics bear it out.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Sorry, Also, women are coming.
Women, for the most part, arecoming to a marriage with more
equity and more you know theymay have an inheritance.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
I'm okay with them owning their own car before I
mean I mean if I don't have tobuy them a car I'm good I have
my own car.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yeah, it's okay, it works for me well, my point is
it's worth discussing becauseeven if you don't go through
with signing it, you've gonethrough the exercise of learning
what the other person'sattitude is.
And if the other person'sattitude is strictly about
gender roles, if you havechildren and they're not going

(42:56):
to be involved with anyparenting and the woman is
working with a full time job andhe's expecting her to return to
work after her maternity leave,that puts a tremendous burden
on her.
I mean forewarned, rightForewarned.
That's what you are.
If you discuss a prenuptialagreement, you're forewarned

(43:18):
about what to expect.
Let me put it this way If yougot on an airplane okay and you
heard the pilot announce youhave a 50% chance of reaching
the destination, what would youdo?

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Oh hell, no, I'm getting off the plane.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
I don't like to fly anyway, that's the same
percentage that you have ofreaching your destination in
your first marriage, yourdestination being a lifelong
journey with this person thatyou're marrying, your
destination being a lifelongjourney with this person that
you're marrying You've got a 50%chance.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Those are the statistics For a while divorce
was on the downside.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Now it's going back on the upslide and COVID has
caused such an uptick in divorce.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
Really, I guess.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
Arguments over vaccinations masking getting the
children vaccinated.
Oh yes, really, I guess it'sover vaccinations masking
getting the children vaccinatedWeird.
Oh yes, really, it's tremendousuptick.

Speaker 3 (44:16):
So it's weird because my divorce is like completely
opposite of anybody else.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
No, yours was pretty.
When you told me about it, I'mlike wow, you were very lucky.
How was I?

Speaker 3 (44:25):
lucky.
I don't have any children, Idon't own any real property
other and I have a car and abank account that was depleted
because dumb ass kept spendingall the money.
Right, yeah, that's why youguys were well, one of the
reasons for divorce I didn'thave nothing and and I was
thinking to myself for like thefive years before the divorce I

(44:48):
hope she sleeps with somebodyand I find out about it so I can
kick her ass out.

Speaker 1 (44:54):
It's true, I know it just makes it sound like cheat
cheat, cheat, cheat cheat, cheat.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
I wanted her gone, but because I'm not an ass hole,
I'm just an ass, you know, youknow you took vows.
You took him seriously.
I did what I was supposed to doand I waited for her to break
them.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Well, I, I can't say that anybody I know other than
you that would do that, but itgives credit to your character.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
Yeah and people say how do I know you're going to
leave me?
Whenever I was, whenever I wasdating, they're like how do I
know you're not just just seeingme and leave me?
I said, well, I got 20 yearrelationship that I just got out
of that I could have bailed onat 11 according to your
standards, but I waited until itwas just really over, wow and.
But I had nothing.

(45:44):
I told the lawyer.
I said I want her debt to beher debt.
Anything that's in her namedebt, anything that's in her
name.
She claims, anything that's inmy name as the primary grantor.
Right, I take responsibility.
She takes responsibility.
And I gave her her car becauseit was partially in my name and
I took my car and she didn'teven read it, she just walked

(46:05):
inside and went on.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
That's another thing we should probably stress to
people Read your divorce paper,yeah, even read it.
She just walked in, signed itand went on.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
That's another thing we should probably stress to
people Read your divorce paper.
Yeah, read it, oh my God, yes,read it.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
But I wasn't going to screw her.
You get your debt's your debt,my debt's my debt and we're done
, because I knew exactly what Iwas going to do.
The next thing I was going todo that she had a bunch of money
because she had somebody hither car, so she had a bunch of
cash.
She didn't fix your car, butshe just spent the cash.
She could have taken 1200 bucksand filed bankruptcy, just like

(46:36):
I did, and now she wouldn'thave any bills to pay.
Well, but you know, I told herbefore we got divorced.
This is where it's going to endup if you keep.
She was putting our grocerieson the credit card.
So yeah, there was a realproblem Because she decided she
wanted to work for $9 an hour.

(46:57):
She was minimum wage inArkansas at the time.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
Now it's $11, but you know me yeah $11.25.

Speaker 3 (47:03):
But leave it on me to pay for everything.
Hell, I was only making $14.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
So a prenup is a good way for you all to have those
very serious.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
Candid discussions, yes, but what if you don't have
anything?
What's the point If you'rewalking into it?

Speaker 2 (47:18):
the point is okay.
The point is if you don't haveanything, if neither of you have
absolutely nothing, okay, andyou're saying you don't even
have debt.
If you don't have anything,you're going to have debt.
How are you living?
So the one thing you shoulddiscuss is debt.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
I don't know.
For some people, yes, butthat's true.
I guess those candidconversations, though, though
you should already be havingbefore you get married.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
but I was to if we were to get married.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
She's saying that we need a prenup saying the house
stays due because you own ahouse true, but I mean in
arkansas, they, they always theytold me what you came into the
marriage with is what you prettymuch get for sure, but yeah,
the house would be, but I meanher land what about the
appreciation and?
The value of the house.
That's true.
You do get appreciation forliving there.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
Yeah, she's right about you should appreciate me
if I live there you in thecountry.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
It's hilarious.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
I like I would hope I would be appreciated for living
there.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
You are.
I'm trying to think.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
But yeah, my divorce just went smooth because it was
over, there wasn't anything todo.
But I decided, you know I?
Basically six months into mymarriage I guess I already had
planned for divorce, if youreally think about it, because
six months in, at 26 years old,I was already like no, I'm not

(48:56):
having kids with this person.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
So I was already planning for divorce, thank God
you said that to yourself, yo.

Speaker 3 (48:59):
No, I realized what it.
She almost killed the cat.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
I knew this was coming.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
What, what I went on a business trip for five days,
came back and the cat's like I'mlike what the hell is wrong
with the damn cat?
And and I looked at, the cathad no food, no water.
The cat was starving to death.
She hadn't fed the cat or giveit water since I left.

(49:24):
Oh my god, yeah.
So I'm like, no, not havingkids with her, absolutely not.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
She'll kill the kids.

Speaker 3 (49:33):
She's lucky the cat didn't eat her.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
This is true.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (49:38):
Maybe it was probably what noticed, but I don't know,
chunks of flesh messing shemight notice.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
So do you ever like get clients that you will if
they ever come back to you?
You're like no, are attorneysallowed to do that?
Like I'm not going back to thatperson again.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
Actually, uh, I have said that to people who come,
not returning clients, butpeople who come to me the first
time and, um, don't want onespouse or the other spouse to
have any custodial rights, wantme to rake the other person
through the coals.
You know you can't really dothat.

(50:15):
I was practicing inPennsylvania.
I'm actually retired now but Iused to say you've got the wrong
lawyer, you're not going to getwhat you're looking for.
The courts will not countenancethis.
They don't want to hear thathe's a narcissistic asshole.
They don't really care.
Yeah, and they're gonna say youwere the idiot, you married him

(50:36):
that's.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
That's probably true.
It's a true statement.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
I mean, judges have said that yeah what do you think
about women getting the custodyof the children almost no
matter what it's changing?
It's changing, but in the pastthat's a real thing, and where
the men gets no consideration atall for getting the custody of
the children?

Speaker 2 (51:01):
Well, that really, you know that's not.
I don't even think that's truein your state.
I mean, most states now havestatutes that talk about the
best interests of the child andthe judges have to weigh and
balance each one of those things.
For example, which parent isgoing to be the parent able to
take care of them emotionally,physically, give them, you know,

(51:23):
the health support that theyneed.
You know schooling.
Sign up.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
Well, there's a there's a lot of.
There's a there's a school ofthought out there, with a lot of
men who feel like they've beenjust raked over the coals and
they don't get any visitationwith their kids, either because
they had a poor lawyer or youknow.
The judge just said no, thekids go with mom.

(51:50):
And I know a lot of guys 10, 15years ago that this was
happening to and it didn'tmatter what they did.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
10, 15 years ago.
No, you're right, paul, it hasreally changed, though, okay,
mostly because of the men'sgroups.
The men have been fantastic interms of consolidating and
lobbying different statelegislatures, and I don't know
any states now that say you knowa mother?

(52:19):
It used to be called the tenderyears doctrine, where
automatically the mother got thechildren.
That hasn't really been enacted, you know, for probably 15
years.
So your, your, your timeframeis correct, but I find it hard
to believe that, um, a man wouldbe totally, um, cut out of a

(52:44):
child's life just because thewoman has ovaries.
I just don't believe that.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
I think some of the situations I've seen some women
I've encountered over the yearsdo is they make it difficult
where he doesn't want to comearound and they make it
difficult for pickup, or theyjust make it difficult period
for the man to see.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
Every time he shows up, she comes out in the yard
and screams at him he's notgoing to show up anymore.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
But my always advice to these girls is number one
knock it off.
And to the guys it's number twogo get an attorney and fight
for your children.
But then they get the responseback to me is I can't afford it.
And that's where I feel likemaybe some men feel stuck, and
some women too.
Sometimes you know situationswhere they feel like they can't.

(53:32):
They can't afford an attorneyto fight for it, so they just
accept their fate.
And if you make a certainamount of income, you can't
really get free legal aid either.
So it's it's kind of a viciouscycle to some people.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Well, you know, there's no question.
I think at the core of whatyour question is is the system
broken?
And absolutely the system'sbroken.
There is no question.
You know courts were neverintended to really deal with all
the custody cases that arebefore them.
You know they were originallyorphans courts and they were
courts that really were supposedto adjudicate.

(54:08):
You know, the needs of childrenwho were literally orphaned to
adjudicate the needs of childrenwho were literally orphaned.
And none of the courts in theUnited States are funded
sufficiently to take intoconsideration all the needs of
every family that comes beforeit.
I mean there should bewraparound services for some
families and in some states likeNew York, which is a very

(54:30):
wealthy state, they havedifferent services within the
court system to deal with someof the problems that you're
talking about.
A man who is underrepresented,they would send them to
mediation and basically tell thelady at that point look, if you
continue to do this, the judgecould switch custody and give
him the custody, and things likethat are happening more and

(54:52):
more.
That's good.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
I'm glad it's becoming more fair.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Absolutely.
It's becoming more fair, but apoint well taken.
If you have to hire a lawyer, Imean lawyers have to pay a lot
of more malpractice insurancethan they ever used to.
They have to pay higher wages,all of the, all of the things

(55:16):
that they need.
With respect to the computersand everything.
I mean.
It's so much more expensive toproduct, to have the product for
, to give the service to the, tothe client, and you know they
don't appreciate that, but thereality is you're going to pay
through the client and you knowthey don't appreciate that, but
the reality is you're going topay through the nose.
If you go through a lawyer,it's always better to try to go

(55:38):
to a mediator.

Speaker 3 (55:41):
I don't think we have the option for mediators in
Arkansas?
Do we?

Speaker 1 (55:44):
I don't know.
I mean it makes sense.
I mean a mediator is supposedto be a non-bitus and party.
I know they do it a lot in CASAwhen we're having issues okay,
kids placements but that I don'tknow.
that's kids in foster careversus you know where are we
going to put them at, and it'syou know, I've been a cup sat in
a couple of those and it'susually someone from like the
law school in arkansas donatesher his or her time and come up

(56:04):
and we have, like the otherfamily who lost their children,
on one side and then we'resitting on the other and we're
trying to come to consensus ofsometimes we're the best place
to put the child.
But I know the divorce courtshave it, but I don't know if you
could do it ahead of time, butto me it sounds smart, I mean,
but you got to hire the mediator, correct?

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Well, in many states the mediator is free.
If you file for divorce, it'sautomatically triggered that
before you go to court you haveto go to the mediator.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
They're trying to keep some of this BS out of the
court and get it done ahead oftime.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
Yeah, the bottom line is I don't know any judges.
You know I don't know anyjudges.
You know, I don't know anyjudges and I have an ex-husband
who was a judge and I don't knowany judges that want to hear
custody cases.
Oh yeah, they just feel as if,even though you know they've got
the law in front of them andthe case law and the facts, who

(57:10):
am I to decide this child's life?
I mean, it's an awesomeresponsibility that the judges
take seriously, but they don'treally relish it.
They don't really want to feelresponsible for making the wrong
decision.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
I guess people lie in court.
Oh yeah, they lie and they tellthese kids.
Look, if you tell the judge, ifthe judge wants to hear what
the child's opinion is or whattheir choice is, who they would
prefer to live with, and somecases in some states take that
into consideration.
The judge we were going to goin front of was the judge in his

(57:55):
custody case and his mother hadtold him that which he wanted
to live with his father.
But his mother threatened himand said you will never see me
again If you tell that judgethat you want to live with your
father.
Ouch.
So he went and lied to thejudge.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
That makes sense.
I moved to disqualify thatjudge and that's.
And that judge said to me andthat's.
He slapped his desk and saidand that's the reason why I hate
this, because I don't know ifthese kids are lying.
You go through the standard.
Do you know what the truth is,do you?

Speaker 1 (58:26):
know what the lie is.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
You know, the kid's scared to death.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
Especially if they have to face the other, all the
kids are trying to do in adivorce is survive, yeah, and
especially if a kid has to situp there and do it in front of
open court, in front of bothparents.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
That's just Well, they don't do that in
Pennsylvania.
They do it in chambers where,just before the judge and the
lawyers and a court reporter.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
They don't do it here .

Speaker 2 (58:48):
They'll do it.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
They.
They don't do it here, they'lldo it.
They do it there.
An open court.
Yeah, yeah, it's open courthere, but it is barbaric.
But I have extreme respect forthe cost of judge that I have to
be under when I do the cost ofcases because I could you could
people kind of give him a lot offlack because he tries extreme
hard, hard time with.
He waits until he absolutelyhas to sever parental rights.

(59:13):
He goes, rides it all as far ashe can and you could see the
look on his face that hestruggles with making a decision
that I don't know how they doit.
I can understand why they hatethe three ring circus, but I
would not want to be a full-time, you know, foster care judge,

(59:36):
so to speak, family law orwhatever.
But it's a lot of weight ony'all's shoulders, especially
for the attorney to try to arguewhat's best for the kid or the
parents.
It's just, it's a.
It's a three ring circus.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
Well, I was guardian ad litem for a young girl.
I became her guardian when shewas about I guess she was about
eight or nine years old, andthey took her away from her
mother because she literallylived in the backseat of her
mother's car and woke up everymorning in a different the
parking lot of a different bar,and she was extremely bright.

(01:00:14):
She did exceptionally well inschool and all the teachers came
in and said that when theylearned her circumstances they
couldn't really believe itBecause she was so focused in
school and even if she washungry she was focused and she
was polite to the teachers.
But they're the ones whoreported the mother to children

(01:00:36):
and youth, which is what wecalled it in Pennsylvania Make a
very long story short, tried togive the mother some rights to
come and see this child, youknow, under a setting where
there would be a psychologist todiscuss with the mother what

(01:00:58):
the child's needs were and thelittle girl with the mother.
That went on for a while.
Then the mother stopped showingup and we all know what happens
.
I mean, I can tell you this isprobably, you know, the same
song you've heard over and overagain she was drunk, she
couldn't show up.
So eventually the court had toterminate this mother's rights

(01:01:21):
because she started to become sodisruptive to this little girl.
But the little girl was growingup, because time doesn't stop
when these cases, who are veryslow to move through, they go
through a glacial space pace.
Rather Sorry, my allergy is toyour audience.
I do beg your pardon, nettingit all out.

(01:01:43):
I followed this little girluntil she was a senior in high
school.
She went to a large high school.
She was the valedictorian Wow.
To a large high school.
She was the valedictorian Wow.
She got a scholarship to YaleUniversity.
She was there for six monthsand she killed herself.
Oh, my gosh, jeez, what was thereasoning?

(01:02:07):
Do they think they just feltthat she, she felt like she
didn't belong there.
She felt like she in the, inthe community that she, you know
, flourished in.
Everybody knew her circumstance, everybody.
That was her community.
You know everyone at schoolknew what her circumstances were
.
She lived with a foster family,obviously, but you know people

(01:02:34):
would invite her out.
You know the foster familywould let her go.
I mean, she had this closecommunity of support.
And then she went to yale andyou, you can imagine what that
was like, right yeah, all theshadow water.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
When you hit college, all your support system was
gone.
You gotta start over yeah, youdo.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
You have to find your way, you have the skills.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
Once again, we're talking about the skills you
learn in childhood, right?
Yeah what skills did she learn?
You know, the question is didshe, was she high on something?
Did she do what her mother didwhen things were bad and she
felt down and out?
Did she do drugs?
I don't know, they never couldreally.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
I mean, I yeah and that's neither here nor there.
I mean, we've done a coupleepisodes on suicide and it's
just suicide.
Is it that men commit suicide,at what I'd rate it, 10 times as
women do?
I think that's something likeand it makes sense when you get
down to it.
Why men do that?
Because you know they gotnothing left.

(01:03:36):
But if you're all alone byyourself, it's you know.
It's.
It's just you got to learn toreach out and talk to people.
Find someone to help you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
Yeah, I mean it's definitely a story that I'll
kind of keep in the back of myhead with some of the CASA kids
Cause.
Once the case is done I don'treally know what happens to them
.
I mean, occasionally I'll findout information.
But our job is done and we goto the next case.
But um, I've always tried veryhard to like at all my CASA
reports to make sure they havecounseling, that they have

(01:04:09):
permanent placement, that youknow the big things that I can
think of.
But, like with your case,everybody thought that you know
with this young lady every sheprobably had every outward of
parents of being perfectly fineand then gets out on her own and
doesn't.
So it's.
I've always been a big advocatewith all my cases of, yes,
they're being adopted.

(01:04:29):
I mean they may not be withwith family, but can we have
some sort of ability for thischild to figure out who they are
when they turn 18?
Can we make sure records areavailable, put away somewhere,
so if this kid comes to you canyou be able to tell him who he
or she is?
I've thought of like everydifferent way to try to make
think of what could these kidscould possibly need.

(01:04:49):
That's in my control to help,so.
But this case will definitelybe something I'll be thinking of
as some of my cases get olderand I think about them every now
and then.

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
So I just thank god, I don't have to deal with any of
that well the re, the realityis.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
it's so important when you remember this case and
this is what I would tell myclients who are, you know, going
through divorce.
If you have to put, I mean,you're a role model.
Now you're going through a badtime, but you are a role model
for your children and they'regoing to look at you to see how

(01:05:25):
you're handling this and if youcan handle this in a way that
you're not bitter but you'regetting better, then it's that's
how they're going to approachthese problems when they hit a
real bump in the road and we allhit bumps in the road Sometimes
we fall into a sinkhole.

(01:05:48):
A sinkhole, you know, thereality is nobody's nobody comes
out of their childhood 100%without some issue.
You know we're raised by humans.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
This is true.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):
Yeah, yeah, humans make mistakes.
I always say that I mean,that's that was I read.
I'm a little reductive, I'm alittle reductive in a lot of
things that I do, probably a lotreductive, but I but I always
tell people they say why don'tyou trust government, why don't
you trust this, why don't youtrust that?
And I said well, becauseultimately, it's run and
administered by human beings andas long as there's a human

(01:06:25):
involved, there is a really goodopportunity for it to be fucked
up.
Yeah, and once you understandthat, then every you'll realize
why we need to have as little,uh interference in our lives by
outside entities as possible,because those outside entities
are just another human whosometimes has no clue what

(01:06:49):
they're doing and they just wantto go home.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
Today, I wish people had that same sentiment with
malpractice stuff, because as anurse perspective on that side
of it you'd always be like, well, the rumor is they're going to
sue.
You know that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:07:04):
Not everybody's perfect man.
People make mistakes.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
And some people do dumb mistakes.
You know that cost people theirlives.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
At least you're not Dr Death.
Oh gosh, that guy in Texas.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):
Have you heard about that guy in Texas?

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
The guy who was in what he was in intensive care or
something wasn't he.

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
He was a neurosurgeon that was doing surgery on
patients.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
He decapitated his friend by, you know, by accident
mostly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
What?
No, I did not hear about him.
It's called Dr Dunch.

Speaker 3 (01:07:30):
Dr Dunch, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Yeah, I was working in Dallas.
You were in the other hospital,we were in the other hospital,
not the one he was in, but rumorwas at the time that we almost
hired him in our hospital.
And the sad thing is is thispodcast came out?
I think what is it it's called?
Dr, Death, dr Death.
Yeah, they put their sign forthe podcast right across the

(01:07:52):
street from the hospital thisdoctor practiced in.
Oh my God.
So I mean I drove past it everyday going to work and you know
it's.
I guess.
Tell people.
If you think things are kind ofgoing strange, report it and
ask questions, because he couldhave been caught long before he
was.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Well, it took another neurosurgeon.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
What year was that?
Mid-2000s, mid-2000s, let's see, I can find it Dr Dunsch,
doctor, he was a neurosurgeon,was great on paper, was great
everywhere else.
Christopher Dunsch, christopherDunsch, yeah, he was born in 71
.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
He's younger than me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
Born in 71.
He's younger than me.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
When did he practice, or older than me Barely.
Let's see here.
He was accused of injuring 33out of 38 patients enlisting two
years before his license wasrevoked by the Texas Medical
Board.
His license was revoked by theTexas Medical Board In 2017,.

(01:08:58):
He was finally convicted ofmaiming one of his patients and
sentenced to life in prison.
He, basically he was at Bayloryeah, baylor yeah, and you were
at Medical City, which is theopposite, yeah, but I think
Baylor Plano was where he was.

Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
Plano, yeah, where he was at.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
Yeah, I drove past that hospital every day.
He worked on his friend's neckand basically decapitated him
while still being alive.

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
I think he's not completely decapitated in the
sense that our listeners yeah,his head's still attached, but
his spinal cord is severed.
Yeah, he's pretty much likehe's totally dependent upon
others from now on out.

Speaker 3 (01:09:33):
It took 38 patients for somebody to figure that out.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
Listen to his case is what got me interested in
paralegal.
It's because I'm like, oh, Iwant to help people who are
suing.
That shouldn't be and I want tohelp that.
You know I law has always beeninteresting to me, so well, and
another neurosurgeon there.

Speaker 3 (01:09:54):
He was the guy that was on a, he, he, he was on a.
He would go to the board.
He went two or three times andno one would listen to him.
And he's like this guy Dunsthas got to go and no one would
listen to him.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Neurosurgery brings in money.

Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
Yeah, but you know what else brings in money.
You can sell cars in theparking lot and have a lot less
problems.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
I agree with you there, oh gosh.
So I don't know how we are ontime.
We're right there at the end.
So any last advice, any lastinsights, nuggets of thought for
our listeners before we wrapthis up.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
My advice for people who are thinking about getting
engaged or thinking aboutgetting married is to read the
book that I just wrote.
There's so much information onit about you know the questions
you should ask and the thingsthat you should look for Again.
It's called Around which AllThings Bend.

Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
It's on Amazon, barnes and Noble and it's a
narrative form of how to do itat what you need to know, right,
exactly.
So it's entertaining and it'smuch easier to read than just a
you know a textbook.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
Well, that's why I wrote it as a novel, but my
other my other.
If you are married and you'rethinking about divorce, the
worst thing you can do is totalk to your spouse about the
fact that what your intentionsare.
If you really are thinkingabout getting a divorce, go and

(01:11:39):
get a consult with a lawyer andyou may say that you don't have
the money, but you always findmoney for what you really want
to do.
Borrow it, you know you'll payit back when the divorce is over
.
A consult shouldn't be morethan like two fifty three
hundred dollars in northernArkansas.

(01:12:00):
The reality is you've really gotto get your head straight.
If you were in an automobileaccident, you wouldn't talk to
the person who you hit.
We call them plaintiff anddefendant.
The plaintiff and defendantaren't going to talk to each
other.
They're not going to tell eachother what each lawyer is saying
about the case.
You know, I mean there's nocommunication when you're

(01:12:21):
getting divorced.
The clients are talking to eachother.
They're telling each other whateach lawyer is saying to them.
That's the worst thing you cando.
You really need to keep yourthoughts to yourself and if the
person who you're living withstarts to get very abusive again
.
Get a restraining order.

(01:12:41):
Do not have that model for yourchildren to emulate.
Well, one thing is you have.

Speaker 3 (01:12:49):
you can always go to a woman's shelter if you're a
female who's being abusedAbsolutely.
There's tons of women'sshelters.
Unfortunately, on the man'sside there are no.
There are very, very few, ifany, men's shelters for men that
are being abused, and men doget abused too.

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
Oh, they absolutely do.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
They absolutely do.
I don't want to negate that,but there's not a whole lot of
places for them to go, don't?
You know they want to negatethat, but there's not very not a
whole lot of places for them togo.
But you know, if you have torack up a credit card bill
staying in a hotel because she'sthrowing stuff at you or trying
to, you know, burn your clothesor something, then I guess
that's what you got to do, manwell, my bottom line is educate

(01:13:28):
yourself and be cautious andallow your children to model you
to go through it rationally andwithout a lot of hostility.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
And even if the lawyers want to, you know, get
adversarial, you're hired them.
They work for you.
You can pull them back and sayis there such a thing as a
mediator?
I think we need to go to amediator.
You're the them back and say isthere such a thing as a
mediator?
I think we need to go to amediator.
You're the one who controls thecase.
That's my party.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
They work for you, your lawyers work for you.
You don't work for them.
So if they they're bullying youwith what's you know what's
what's going on they say, yeah,I think it'd be okay, but I
think you could do more, thinkwe should do this.
You know.
You need to ask yourself do Ireally want to burn that bridge
that badly?
You know, and sometimes if youjust put it out there what you

(01:14:22):
want, you can get it done andover with, like I did with my
divorce.
I said this is what I want.
Lawyer drew it up and and uh,the my ex-wife, who I call ass
face that's her name is ass faceI didn't know her name for the
longest time she asked my momhas said her name and she's like
who?
it's like no, that's ass face,um, it's um, you know she, she

(01:14:49):
knew better, she knew that itwasn't going to be worth the
fight, so she just signed it andwalked.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
Well, unfortunately mine wasn't that way.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):
His kids involved is different story.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
Well, mine was just the fact that he just was, well,
just mad and angry, and hehates everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:06):
Because he hates himself first.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
It's probably true.
How did he grow up?
How did he grow up?

Speaker 3 (01:15:14):
A dysfunctional family probably right, uh,
madison county yeah no, actuallyhe's in lowell.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
uh, I'm kind of an overbearing father, a very meek
mother, and he felt very um, Iguess you could say felt like
everybody was like I guess hewas very jealous of everybody
else.
Put it to you that way, bestway I could put it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
So he became jealous of you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):
I guess maybe.
So I mean he was that and heliked booze too much.
So you know he had to go.

Speaker 3 (01:15:45):
Booze or booze Booze Beer.

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):
Evan Williams and Coke, Because you know, liking
boobs really doesn't have thathard.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
It's Okay, Evan Williams and Coke, Because you
know locking boobs reallydoesn't have that hard.
You know, it's really not thatbig a deal.
Well, yeah, but I mean you canget addicted to boobs, but it's
much different.
I mean there's no, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:00):
There's probably a support group for that.

Speaker 3 (01:16:02):
Really, I don't know.
I need to look that up, oh myGod.
Oh, you mean To get them offthe boobs?

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
Oh my God, Paul Stop.

Speaker 3 (01:16:10):
All right.

Speaker 1 (01:16:11):
I said it you feel better now.

Speaker 3 (01:16:14):
Always make her say that, at least once.

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
Yes, this is true, I said it.
We're going to get t-shirtsmade that say, oh my God, paul,
stop, stop.

Speaker 3 (01:16:24):
So what's coming up, paul?
Oh my God, I don't know.
We got tons don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:33):
We got tons.
We're booked all the way to endof january.
Uh, the one that I have.
I haven't updated my littlenotebook here because I'm still
old school.

Speaker 3 (01:16:38):
Um we are late kristen horn, that's true, uh,
diane hagerty, which is a goingto be here at the table that's
correct she's going to be in theroom with us because she's a
personal friend of mine.
She is an enrolled agent withthe irs.
She has the ability to argue intax court as a lawyer without
being a lawyer.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah, she's really on top ofthat.

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
So we'll ask all the nitty-gritty questions about the
IRS.

Speaker 3 (01:17:03):
And Mr John Foley, megan Campbell and Mitchell Yoss
he's going to talk to us abouthe's a doctor.
He's going to talk to us aboutchronic pain.
So my fix for chronic pain wasdivorcer.

Speaker 1 (01:17:20):
I'd like to know what he thinks about the opiate
crisis and all that good stuffand opiates, and Montgomery as
well.
Because if you have surgeryanymore, you only get seven days
worth of narcotics, andsometimes seven days is not
enough if you've had your chestcut open.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):
That's true.
Well, I think you know wealways go too far when it comes
to this.
You know the opioid crisisstarted because they let
everybody have it, I know, butlet's save it for the podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
Save it for the podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
But you in a hurry to go somewhere.
No, I'm just saying you want togo look at Nutcrackers over at
the thing, don't you?

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):
No, I have to buy two little gifts for my cost of
kids who've never had toys.

Speaker 3 (01:18:00):
What else is in TJ Maxx?

Speaker 1 (01:18:02):
I promise.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
What else is in TJ Maxx they?

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
sell Nutcrackers, and I'm going to refrain from
buying one unless they have one,that's cool have one.
That's cool, that's different,see see, see, I told you your
motive is you want to go look atthe nutcrackers and nobody has
to contribute to my nutcracker.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
Yes, paul just thinks it's nutcrackers are like 12.99
and with tax it's like 14something.
You know there's a link atnight link on the thing.
You can just go there to paypal, boom done and I'll show.

Speaker 1 (01:18:30):
I'll go buy her a nutcracker with it there to
paypal boom done, and I'll gobuy her a nutcracker with it and
we'll mention your name on theair or you can buy me a fifth of
booze to put up with thenutcrackers.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
At the same price I get a whole giant two liter
bottle of vodka for 12.99.
No, who's cheap.
I'm cheaper to deal with okayso I consume my present while
she gets to look at hers everyyear.

Speaker 1 (01:18:54):
That's true.
They go in a box until nextyear, so is that it?

Speaker 3 (01:19:23):
I guess I don't know.
Okay, is that it?
I think so, all right, bye, bye, I'll see you next time and a
good review from you.
So go to wherever you'relistening to your podcasts Apple
, itunes, spotify, iheartmedia,wherever and hit that five stars
.