Helen Spence's Fight for River Justice in the Arkansas Delta (repost)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andrea (00:11):
Hey guys, this is Andrew from Things.
I Want to Know.
If you like the podcast, pleaseleave a five-star rating.
Don't really know why this isimportant, but it is, so let's
get the voice out.

Paul G Newton (00:20):
Also, don't forget to check out the podcast
Paul G's Corner, a podcast whereeveryone gets a voice In the

(00:46):
1930s there was Bonnie Parker,al Capone, dillinger and
Babyface Nelson, but onecharacter from the South has

(01:07):
garnered the attention of afilmmaker and a storyteller and
many more people who areinterested in this true crime
tale.
Today we have questions aboutthe 1930s killer, helen Spence.
We're joined by our esteemedDenise Parkinson, who is from

(01:31):
South Arkansas and has createdquite a bit of content about it.
Denise, how are you doing today?

Denise Parkinson (01:41):
Very well and thank you all for having me.

Nice, nice.
Now tell us a little bit aboutyour project, what you've you
got?
A book and a movie and allsorts of good stuff.
Uh, just walk us through what'sgoing on thank you for the
opportunity.

Yes, daughter of the white river was published
in 2013 so daughter of theWhite River is the book.
Yes, it's actually calledDaughter of the White River.
Depression Era, treachery andVengeance in the Arkansas Delta.

Nice.

Because there was quite a lot of that going on
in the Depression.

Well, it's kind of every day in the Arkansas
Delta.
Even today, I think there'snothing there, man.

That's exactly what several people have said
to me.
When I've interviewedoctogenarians over the years.
They would say well, there'salways a depression in Arkansas.

It's called living in the South.
It's true.

Andrea (02:39):
The northwest corner is so very different than over
towards.

Yeah, well, and I said, some listeners will know
that I, my father, is fromstuttgart, which is how far away
from where this incidenthappened oh, it's in the same
county, it's in arkansas county,so it's about yeah 30 miles
away from where most of thestoryline took place yeah, and
so I.
I grew up going there four orfive times a year for a week at

(03:03):
a time and I mean, I'm veryfamiliar with the area and you
know people are people.
But some of the barbecue wasgood and some of it is probably.
I don't know if that was theway they kept dogs under control
or what.
It wasn't very good at all.

Andrea (03:17):
Oh my gosh, Don't scare everybody.
Yes, tell us a little bit aboutyour.

We've got a little bit of a lag on our time,
so we've got about a 10 secondlag, maybe a five second lag
between you hearing us, andthat's OK.
But I just let the audienceknow why.
There's some kind of weirdnessgoing on, because I don't edit
these things.
I leave it up as an actualconversation and it just makes
it more natural.
So a little bit of a hesitationin her hearing us today.

(03:50):
But walk us through.
What made you even begin to becurious about Spence?

All righty.
Helen Spence was unknown to mecompletely, Even though I spent
a lot of time in Stuttgart.
I have family cousins there inStuttgart, but I mostly spent
time on the White River atClarendon, which is up the river
, home to a woman named HelenSpence.

(04:29):
That I found when I wentlooking for my own family
history because we werehouseboat people at Clarendon
and the government destroyed ourhouseboat.
And then my great-grandmotherwas in another houseboat on a
different levee near Pine Bluff,the Arkansas River levee, and
the government destroyed herhouseboat there and evicted her
from there as well.

(04:49):
And it really.
How was that?
even possible Because peopleconsider river people to be
river rats, and that's.

Well, explain to us a little bit about living,
the living on a, on a boat inthe river.

I'm, I'm, I'm, unfamiliar well, these are okay
, I'd like to know a little bitmore about that these are shandy
boats, and this is why I'm soglad that I get a chance to talk
to you and andrea, because veryfew podcasters in arkansas have
have to me.
The ones that have, I'moverjoyed because most of the

(05:28):
podcasts have been from bothcoasts, interested in houseboat
culture and river culture.
So our family had losteverything and it really messed
up my family, and so when I grewup, I couldn't understand why
my family was so just completelydestroyed, and so I decided to

(05:49):
find out what happened on theriver and I found a historian
here in Hot Springs where I wasliving, and I introduced, called
him up out of the phone book,heard about him, sought him out,
and then we became greatfriends, and he not only gave me
all the secrets of the riverthat he knew, he told me about

(06:13):
Helen Spence, and I made a vowto him that I would continue his
work to clear her good name,because he passed away in 2015.
So his story is in the book.
His name is Mr Brown, lc Brown,lemuel Cressy Brown, and he was
friends with Helen Spence inArkansas County.

Oh, he was really friends with her.

Yeah, she was older than him but like they
were all together on the river,their families were close.
He had an uncle with ahouseboat.

That's cool.
So how did these people end upon the houseboats?

They preferred it that way because back when
the settlers were coming across,the Lower White River was the
most fertile area, but this waslike 100 years before any of the
dams.
So there would be the rise andthe fall of the water that they

(07:20):
built from the materials at handfloating these homes on Cyprus.
That rose and fell with thenatural cycles of the White
River and they had land alongthe sides where they grew
gardens and farmed and keptlivestock and they basically had

(07:42):
.
The river was a road, so therewere grocery boats, so there
were grocery boats, there weredelivery boats.

It was like you could that sounds kind of fun
actually yeah that sounds kindof fun.

Yeah, they preferred living on houseboats
because they wanted to be asclose to the river as possible,
because it was central to theiridentity, because they were
multi-ethnic to their identity,because they were multi-ethnic.
These are people from all overEurope and Italians and Germans
that kept their language, andyou know a lot of Germans in

(08:13):
Stuttgart.
Well, some of those folks wereriver people.

Yeah.

And African-American descendants,
native American descendants.
It was like a big you knowmelting pot on the river, but
because they identified withnature and the river and called
themselves river people, theywere a cohesive community.

Everybody worked together because it was the only
community that has what you'resaying.

A rising tide lifts all houseboats yeah.

Hopefully not too far.
I woke up in Arkansas County,but I went to bed in Newton
County.
What's going on?
So, but all right, you know, itactually does sound kind of
what do you think?
I mean, that sounds kind of fun, don't you it?

Andrea (09:09):
does sound fun.
I'm just thinking like did theyjust prefer to stay on the
river because the the landswould flood and it was just
easier to be mobile?

what's it do in louisiana?

Andrea (09:19):
I mean to me that makes sense.

I mean, if you're living in that area and it
floods into the rise and thefall of the river, I mean it
makes sense to be make sure yougot some good chains, that's all
you know, have some security,not having your house washed
away, I mean yeah, yeah, I meanit sounds like a lot of the, a
lot of the bayou folks down inthe south south louisiana too.
They do kind of similar stuffit sounds very carefree, I mean

(09:44):
it's characteristic of what isknown as a riparian culture.

So it is going on even today somewhat in
Louisiana.

What's riparian culture?

On the riverbank.

What's a riparian culture?

On the riverbank, that's what that
means.

Okay, cool.

And the thing is Andrea, one of the.

It sounds great.

Well, one of the reasons that they wanted to
be on the water is because theyhad a sustainable culture where
they hand-gathered mussel shellsfreshwater mussels from the
riverbed and then there were aseries of button factories all
up and down the White River,which is the longest river, you
know, and so they were in DesArc and Brinkley and Duval's

(10:25):
Bluff and New Clarendon, allthese little button factories.
But it wasn't like anindustrial factory, it was like
a gazebo where people sat arounda table and punched out button
forms from shells by hand.

Andrea (10:40):
Huh, I did not know that .

Yeah, Buttons are very hard to come by.
I don't know what about 1870,1880?
.

Well, the mother of pearl buttons were so
plentiful and the river peoplewere so successful with their
sustainable industry that theUnited States Army had a
contract with Arkansas topurchase these mother of pearl
buttons for Army uniforms ofWorld War I.
After World War II then therise of plastic and the dams

(11:13):
spelled the end of that.

Bakelite, so they were having a thriving
community.
For years Everybody was.
They kind of held their owntogether.
They had their own kind of likeriver law.
I guess from what I can tell Isthat is that how.
How did the law and order workon the river Well?

it was called river justice, which was an eye
for an eye, and dry landerjustice was what went on in the
courtroom, which was not thesame, and the reason that Mr
Brown was so close with HelenSpence was because Mr Brown's
father was the only deputysheriff for Arkansas County that

(11:52):
the river people would allow tocome down to their area because
they had that's quite commonactually.
Yeah, and they had an uncleArchie that lived on a houseboat
.
And they had an uncle Archiethat lived on a houseboat.
So the family was, you knowabout, evenly split between
farmers and river folks.

Yeah, so they let him in because it's like they
kind of knew him.
That makes sense.
I think you know he's not 100%trustworthy, but he's more than
that other dude Right.

Andrea (12:23):
I mean this is the stuff they should be teaching the
kids for Arkansas history,versus the stuff they're
teaching now.
No offense, I mean my daughterwould be more interested in this
than what she has to learn inArkansas history now.

Yeah, absolutely.

Andrea (12:34):
I agree.

So this story that you've worked so hard on
and maintaining the legacy, Noware these people related to you?

That's a good question.
I actually asked your cousinBilly if he could help me find
out.
We kept turning up.

Oh, yeah, and Billy Rabenick is the man that
put us together today.
And Billy Rabenick, like I toldpeople even though, believe me,
you don't have no Cajuns inhere, no, I have Rabenicks and
go on from there.
Yeah, we go all the way down inSouth Louisiana he's put us
together today and we all wantto thank him for putting us in

(13:18):
touch with each other, becausewe didn't even know each other
existed.
And Denise makes films, I makefilms.
Cool.
Who knew?
And it's a good story.

I hope to see each other existed in.
Denise makes films, I makefilms.
Cool, who knew?
And it's a good story I hope tosee really next Sunday when we
take our documentary of our book, of my book, down to Stuckart,
cause that's where Billy'shopefully going to be able to
see the film that he helped make, cause he did some really
interesting research.

Nice, Nice.
Yeah, he was researching familytrees.
He's like oh yeah, and it turnsout and we'll get into that
later, so we just need to followthe storyline for a second here
, I guess.

Andrea (13:56):
I want to jump to the end, but I can't do that.

So you were talking to this gentleman, this
historian, and he introduced youto Miss Spence.
I always get it wrong becausemy brain doesn't work.
I have to go get a new braineventually.
But you know it was on recallfor years, but then they ran out
of parts, so anyway, the sword.
So Helen Spence, she's.

(14:22):
Oh my gosh, why, why in theworld is this guy on the kick
about Helen Spence?

Well, she was his good friend.
And river people, if they makea promise, even if it takes 50
years or more, they will keepthat promise.
And so Helen Spence wasbasically.
According to my research overthe years, I'm convinced that
she's the actual real lifeprototype for Charles Portis'

(14:52):
character, Maddie Ross.
But because Helen Spence was abeloved child of the river and
was considered a river rat bydrylanders, when Maddieoss
avenged her father, she wastreated like a hero and when
helen spence avenged her fatherriver justice she was thrown in

(15:14):
jail and tortured and murderedandrea and I need your help.

If you like our episodes, please give us a
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itunes, spotify, iheart media,wherever and hit that five stars
, wow.

So what's the tale of this lady?
Can you walk us through it?
Yeah, so she was born on ahouseboat on the White River
around the Clarendon area andthen, as she was growing up,
floated down with her family,which was her father, her
stepmother and her disabledsister.
Her sister had had childhoodpolio, but they kept her on the

(16:17):
houseboat and cared for her.
And Helen's father was namedCicero Spence and he was a very
wise person that a lot of peoplecame to for advice, and that's
who Mr Brown's father, sheriffLim Brown, would always go and
talk to Helen Spence's dad,cicero Spence, whenever it was

(16:37):
time for somebody on the riverto go to a summons, to the
courthouse, and they alwaysturned up.

So that's, he was the sheriff.

You're right.
And so LC was a little boy whenhe played with Helen.
He was like four, five, sixyears old, and what happened was
Helen and her stepmotherwitnessed the murder of Cicero
by a dry lander who came in fromoutside.

(17:11):
He came in from Rosedale,mississippi, and your cousin,
what was he doing?
That's where your cousin came in.
Everyone on the river thoughtit was just a fishing trip and
the guy decided to rob CiceroSpence and in the process he
shot him and dumped him over theside of the boat.

(17:32):
That's what was understood bythe river people.
But your cousin, Billy, came inafter my book came out and did
some research and found outthere was always this back and
forth between Rosedale and therecords that I was able to study
from the court records of thattime in Arkansas County.

(17:53):
There seemed to be a lot ofback and forth with people from
Rosedale, Mississippi, to theLower White River and Billy came
up with some information thatled us to think there might be a
timber connection, that thetimber companies were hiring
mercenaries to run the riverpeople out so they could have

(18:16):
access to all that cypress.

And the river.
People were like that soundslike some kind of weird.
That sounds like some kind ofweird conspiracy theory that
Alex Jones would come up with orsomething like that.
But at the time and place thatthese people were living, that
happened a lot, I mean even inpresidential politics.
Woodrow Wilson he sent histhugs in to break up union lines

(18:43):
and they didn't work forWoodrow, but they did, and
everybody knew it.
It was just really hard toprove, but it's in our history
books, but they teach us thatwhen we're in school.
So for anyone who's listeningand thinks, oh, that's just
crazy, no, no, no.
At the time, this is somethingthat they did.

Andrea (19:01):
I mean it makes sense for the time that this takes
place.
I mean it makes sense for thetime that this takes place.

I mean, yeah, it's not unheard of for
companies or government to dothis kind of, to actually send a
mercenary force out to kill abunch of people.
They just did it and it's likegood luck finding who did that.

Andrea (19:16):
Probably some way that they do it now, just in a
different form or fashion orpaper.

Now they kill you financially.

Andrea (19:22):
Yeah, back then they kill you physically paper now.

They kill you financially yeah, back then they
kill you physically or kill thereputation of your company.
Yeah, well that's interestingthat you bring that up because
actually what the united statesfederal government did later was
achieve the same result thatthe mercenaries of the timber
companies were doing, becausethe government created all these

(19:45):
wildlife refuges all up anddown the best bottomlands where
all my people were, and evictedeveryone and were burning and
sinking houseboats right upthrough the 1990s.
Wow, Wow, really yeah there'slike a houseboat graveyard.
That's down there if you gofurther.

I want to talk about reparations.
You want to talk aboutreparations?
That's, rep, that somebodyneeds to pay reparations for
that.
If they didn't pay them andthey just went in there and got
rid of them because they're onnow.
Quote unquote public land.
See, that's what it is.
The the rivers, I think 100feet from a riverbank, wherever
that riverbank is at that pointin time, is public government

(20:28):
land.
If it's a navigable river,that's the way the law is.
Now there's guys in Nevada thatget their land taken away from
them because there's a creekthat becomes deep enough to
navigate once a year.

Andrea (20:44):
Wow.

Well, that's exactly what happened.
Y'all, all the people that wereon the river and have land that
they farmed and used adjacentto where they had their
houseboats.
The government came and paidthem I think it was 25 cents on
the dollar and took their land.
Yeah, and there's nothing youcan do about it A damn thing

(21:10):
Except write a book and make amovie.
Those were.

Congress once man yeah.

Andrea (21:15):
This is true.

So somebody came in and killed Cicero Right, and
that didn't go over very well,did it?

No, and the reason.
I think that my research showedthat a lot of the stories that
lined up said that Helen Spencehad seen it happen, so that's
how I wrote it in the book.
Ada was taken aboard the boatafter Jack Worles, which was the
name of the guy.

Who's Ada?

Ada is Helen Spence's stepmother.
Helen Spence's real mother diedwhen she was a toddler, and
when you asked me before if Iwas related to anybody in this
story, there is a ghost of achance that I could have been
related to Helen Spence's motherthrough my maternal

(22:05):
grandmother's ancestors.
Her name was Ellen Woods.
Well, you could go down therabbit hole forever, but we're
all cousins in the river.

Oh yeah.

So what happened?

Well, in South Arkansas, people really need to
realize too that there's onlythere's now there's only three
million people in the state ofArkansas, in the entire state.
Most of them reside in LittleRock, northwest Arkansas.
That includes Fort Smith andJonesboro and a tiny bit of it
in Texarkana.
The rest of it is just wildlyunpopulated.

(22:43):
And Stuttgart has five thousand000, maybe 8 000 people at most
, uh, and that's like thebiggest town down there, just
about so we're going, of coursewe're all related to each other
there's not much there's.

There's not much pickings well, there there
used to be, there used to be, aton of prosperity.
I'm bringing an exhibit that Icurate that shows the level of
individual prosperity in theDelta before all the land grabs
and the plantation mentalitytook hold and you had all these,
you know, thousands andthousands of acre farms that

(23:21):
just squashed the family farmout.
And Stuttgart is, you know,they're Riceland rice.

But Arkansas the.

Delta feeds the world, but yet the Delta has
been purposely depopulated andour infrastructure of the river,
people, bridges that were builtby the river people, like the
one that used to mark helenspence's birthplace and where my
family's houseboat was, thegovernment blew it up.
When we were making our movie,they blew it up wow you gotta

(23:58):
see it.
You get pictures of it, oh yeahwe got the only footage because
the state did not announce itthrough a press release as
required by the ArkansasAnnotated Code.
They used $11 million oftaxpayer money to destroy a
bridge that the river peoplebuilt, just for petty politics.

Send me the link.
Petty politics.
Send me the link to thatfootage if it's online, and I
I'll put it on the page.

I sent you my movie.

I mean that's interesting.
Well, I can't post your entiremovie to the page.
No, I'll try to find it.

It's in a hard drive and I'll try to send it.

Here.
Don't pay for the movie, Justwatch it free.

Oh, I've been sending my movie out to people
to watch free because I'm not aconspiracy theorist.
But there have been so many drylanders and people that are not
from the river that have eithertried to block or sabotage or
steal Block, sabotage or stealmy copyright and my life's work

(25:04):
Because I've been working onthis since 2010 12 years well,
actually, the first article Iwrote about river people was in
1997, when I was an editor atthe arkansas democrat gazette,
and it was all about musselshelling, because I was up

(25:25):
around Possum Grape, one of myfavorite names and there were
giant piles of mussel shells, sothey blew up the bridge, but
you said toad suck and thatreminds me of the ferry.
I want a ferry.
I want a ferry where the bridgewas destroyed.
They need to give back.

That would be cool.

The Helen Spence Memorial Ferry.

Well, there's a houseboat In Mississippi.
They've got an abandoned casinoriverboat that got sunk and
it's now shown back up.
That would be cool.
We shown back up.
You know that would be cool.
We should buy that.
You probably get it for nothing.

Andrea (26:08):
What would we do with it and how would we get it here?

I wouldn't do anything with it cause I
wouldn't buy it.
But somebody should buy it,Right?
But I mean, why would we couldnot get it here?
There's not a navigableriverway.

Andrea (26:20):
No, I mean, I guess way.
No, I mean, I guess we couldtake mississippi to what's the
arkansas down port smith,arkansas river?
I have no idea.
I have to get a map anyways.
So tell us some more about misshelen spence yes, ma'am.

So helen was beautiful.
She was gorgeous.
I call her the coco chanel ofthe river because she sewed,
like my river grannies.
She sewed all her own clothesand she could tap lace.
But she could also shoot like asharpshooter, because Cicero,
having no sons, had taught Helenand her sister all his survival

(26:55):
skills.
And so Helen was a tomboy.
But she was also a gorgeousyoung lady and very fashionable.
And when Jack Worralls shot andkilled her father, ada ended up
being taken by him and he pushedthe boat away and Helen was
discovered floating downriver inshock and Jack Wurls raped and

(27:17):
beat Helen's stepmother and shedied a few days later in the
Memphis hospital, died a fewdays later in the Memphis
hospital.
And then Helen was orphanedcompletely because some cousins
came and took her disabledsister who could not walk, took
her back with them to Oklahoma.
So Helen Spence was completelyalone and she was in the throes

(27:41):
of deep grief and she wasstaying in protective custody
with a local sheriff and hiswife in DeWitt, arkansas.
And when the trial happened shewas wearing a beautiful red
velvet suit that she had sewnherself, she had a white rabbit
fur muff and she sat right downfront and when it looked like

(28:03):
Jack Worralls was going to getoff with killing her father
because they had not locatedCicero's body yet.
So whatever the legal term forthat is, there was a chance that
Jack Wills.

Heaviest corpus Right.

There was a chance that Jack Wills would get
off.
And she stood up in court andpulled the pearl handled ladies
pistol that she pistol that shehad hidden inside her firm ruff
and shot Jack Orles in the chestfour times.
In such a tight pattern youcould put a hat over it.

Wow.

Andrea (28:36):
Wow.

And Billy did a little research and he found
that my grandmother's uncle washis attorney, standing right
there next to him oh well, it'sa good thing she was such a good
shot, because nobody else wasin any danger.

Yeah, fortunately, as my uncle, I
would still be here, but I mightmiss a couple of cousins well,
I found I have found two longlost cousins in the course of
making this film and they bothhelped me with making the film.

Nice so, but they obviously she's in court, so
she immediately gets arrested,right.

Sheriff limb, elsie Brown's dad came up to her
and she handed him the gun andthen they whisked her off to a
side room and sheriff limbcouldn't get his hands to stop
shaking and was trying to getthe gun open to get the bullets
out.
And helen spence just said here, let me help you, it tends to
stick and snatch the gun out ofhis hand.

(29:33):
And then all the judge and thedeputies and everybody dove
under the table and she said ittends to stick.

That's hilarious, Don't worry about it.
Come over here, Look here.
I tend to stick and it was likeoh shit.

Andrea (29:54):
You're giving the criminal back the gun.
Go blow everybody away.
That's funny, that's hilarious.

We had fun filming that scene, but yeah.
So Mr Brown knew what washappening, because not only was
his dad in there and came outand told him everything that
happened, but Mr Brown wasplaying kickball on the court
square with a bunch of kidsbecause it was like a holiday.
There were so many people thereat the DeWitt Court Square to

(30:21):
see the trial of Jack Wuerl andshe brought River Justice into
the courtroom and that's wheneverything started getting crazy
, and so they whisk her away tojail.

What do they do?

they were going to wait for the grand jury
to decide if she was going toget a lesser charge of
manslaughter.
She was only 17 years old whenthis happened oh, she's just 17
and so there was also anelection year going on, so the
governor kept hinting that hewas going to pardon her if he

(30:55):
got elected.
So she was allowed to basicallylive and at the sheriff and the
sheriff's wife in DeWitt whereshe had stayed earlier.
And then she got a job at alocal cafe in DeWitt and was
doing so well that the countyjudge allowed her to move in

(31:16):
with a lady named Ina Mayberry,the wonderful Arkansas name.

That's a very Southern name right there, ina
Mayberry, it's like.

OK, she's from Arkansas.

Yes, the wonderful Arkansas name.
That's a very Southern name,right?

there, ida Mayberry, it's like okay, she's
from Arkansas, yes, and theylived there and worked in the.
There was a little place to ourapartment on top of this little
cafe and Dewitt and she wasdoing great and right before
they decided her fate with theuh legal outcome, the manager of
the cafe turned up dead, shotwith his own gun and helen was

(31:53):
the prime suspect oh no right.
So they took her in again.
Why was she the?
prime subject well, because shehad just shot jack worlds, a few
months before, in front of thewhole county oh so they.

But she had a reason to shoot that guy.
It's a reason to shoot thisdude.

Andrea (32:10):
And do we know, did she shoot him for sure?

I, that's a funny division between river
people and dry landers.
River people all line up andsay anybody could have killed
Jack Worrells.
The word was in arkansas countyhe needed killing because he
was such an offensive.
Oh, did I say jack warhols?
I'm talking about the cafe guyyeah, jim bohatz the cafe guy he

(32:36):
was another man that neededkilling jim bohatz was his name,
and, uh, nobody could stand him.
He needs killing.

Well, it's killing.

Well, he was just awful he drove this flashy
car.

I go in there, yeah.

And he put his hands all over all the women
that worked at the restaurantand he was just a loud,
obnoxious, hateful person.

Oh, do it get no, my grandfather Donald Newton.
If this boy would have grabbedmy grandma up, donald newton
would have he that he'd beenserving his ass in the for the
steaks later that day, becausethere's no way that you touched

(33:18):
my grandfather's wife, he'd soonkill you.
Just look at you.
No way, I don't see.
I don't see how he lived aslong as he did, and that's why
the case went cold.

They they investigated.
Helen Spence was brought in.
I did not do it.
I did not do it, but there werepeople that were dry landers
who claimed that.

Did you ask my pep?
Oh she did.
I'm sure my grandfather went inthere to that restaurant.

Andrea (33:48):
Probably.

I mean yeah because he was rich.
You know, he's one of thericher guys because he owned a
junkyard.
So if he had touched, if he hadtouched my grandma oh my God,
like a chicken, and everybodywould show my.
My great uncle's name wasChicken because he ran really
fast and had really thin legs,so they called him Chicken and
him my grandfather.

(34:09):
This is 30, so they'd be youngmen.
Oh yeah, they would have killedhim.
He would have already been dead.

Andrea (34:15):
So, in other words, this guy at the cafe has a long list
of people who want to shoot him.

Right, that's basically what it boiled down to
.
The case went cold because itwas like one of those Agatha
Christie type stories whereeverybody wanted him dead and
anybody could have done it.

But Helen maintained that she did not.
She probably didn't, more thanlikely.

But it does come back.

I don't know, if he was molesting her, if he, if
he was molesting her, he mighthave got shot, because they
don't river.
People are like the hill people, they don't put up with that.

Andrea (34:50):
Yeah, I'm getting to say if he's like touchy feely, a
bit inappropriate, she'dprobably if she shot a guy in
open court.

I mean shoot him Absolutely.
She's 19, 20 years old.

No, I don't think and jim bohatz was shot
with his own gun and his big,flashy fancy car with the
running boards.
Um was parked under this oaktree at this makeout spot on the
edge of dewitt.
That I've actually been to, andwell, I didn't go there to make
out, I went there to see wherehe was gonna say hey, what kind

(35:20):
of movie is this, very this is avery educational.

The only explosions in my movie are the
ones caused by the government.
Yeah, but the okay, that'sfunny.
I'm gonna recover from that oneanyway.
Um so she, they, anybody couldhave killed this dude.
We don't know who did what andthey blame her because she's

(35:48):
around, but they couldn't provenothing, so let her go so what
happens to miss helen?

well, she ended up getting a very much
shorter sentence formanslaughter.
They had threatened to send herto the electric chair.
In fact when she shot, jackworlds and all these reporters
were in the courtroom becausethey had been in the area to
cover the the very first foodriot of the great depression,

(36:14):
which was in nearby England,arkansas.
So they came over to I didn'tknow this.
I didn't either, until Istarted doing research for the
book wow, england, arkansas.

I drove through there all my life because that's
how you get from here to here,to stuttgart and england's a
little bitty town with arailroad.
Lots of cotton, uh, it'sinteresting.
So what?
So they were involved?
Were they involved in the foodriot?

The, no, the, not the river people.
The river people never gothungry because they were down on
the river.
It was the poor.

There's lots of gar in that, in that river.

Oh yeah, you know it, I've seen some, but I
got pictures of my grandfatherwith the gar as big as the boat.
Yeah, he said you, you go getthem and you'd have to shoot
them when you get them in theboat, because you gotta take
your 22 with you, because theyjust sink your boat yeah, the
first gar I ever saw was on thewhite river and it was as tall

(37:14):
as I was, but I was only aboutfour years old at the time, but
it was still a big gar and itwas very impressive.
But, um, so england arkansaswas the bread basket back in the
day, but we're talking about1930.
1931 was when the trial tookplace and it was starting to
become winter.
It was january of 1931 that thetrial took place of Jack Wills

(37:40):
and she shot him and all shesaid to the reporters was well,
he killed my daddy because shewas doing what she had been
raised to do in river culture,which is protect, and he was the
sheriff of the river people.

Basically they all killed the sheriff of the
river people.

Yeah, that's why I think Jack Wills was an
example out of him and whathappened to Ada?
To terrorize the other riverpeople.
But she got sent to theArkansas Women's Prison on a
lesser charge of manslaughterand was paroled before the end
of her two year sentence.
And that's when the JackWorrells excuse me, the Jim

(39:26):
Boharts, the guy that was killedthat ran the cafe it was, you
know, slave labor host squadtype thing over north of she was
paroled and she took a job at arestaurant in Little Rock that
they gave.
The next thing.
You know she's confessing tokilling Jim Bohatz, the cafe guy
, and nobody can figure out why.
And she gets sent back to thepea farm and that's when they
start to torture her.

Now it took years to find out why in the world do
they have this?
Say again why did they havetheir sights set on her for this
?

Andrea (39:49):
But she confessed.
Why would she confess?
Would she just want to go backto prison because she felt
comfortable that way, or what?

These are all different times, man, people, no
Miranda warnings, none of thatstuff had no rights but she
voluntary went in the policestation and made probably after
getting her ass kicked at thedetect at the police station
what happened was a photographthat shows her, uh, in a very

(40:15):
fancy dress, but because she hadbeen, uh, been paroled not to
work in a restaurant, it took mybook coming out and us going
and meeting with a bunch ofpeople in the community where
the pea farm used to stand,because it's a very strange
place 200 acres, now it's asubdivision but it's unfinished,

(40:38):
there's no sidewalks, but allthe streets are named for women
prisoners.
And it was only discovered thatthat's what that was after my
book came out.
And when I went and met withall these people they explained
that the prison documents I hadshowed that when she was paroled
, there was a man in Lone OakCounty who was the head of the

(41:00):
was paroled.
There was a man in Lone OakCounty who was the head of the
he was the superintendent ofLone Oak County Schools during
the 1930s had signed her parolebond and basically bought her
from the prison, because thatwas what we found.
Ouch, the pea farm was a frontfor trafficking in the 1930s.
That's how they got money forthe prison.

Andrea (41:20):
So basically so someone paid for her parole and she was
basically bought by somebody.
Yes, Am I hearing that right?

Yes, but I didn't understand what this
document meant when I wrote thebook.
But when we got the book andwent and met with all these
people at these community andhistorical society meetings,
they said here's what you don'tknow.
The women from the pea farmwere rented out.
You could check them out like abook.

(41:51):
You could buy one, depending onhow much money.
The guy that bought HelenSpence parole and there was an
employment agreement that hesigned as well paid $1,000 for
her in 1934.

Wow, that's, that's, that's somebody's house,
so that's I mean houses cost.

Andrea (42:12):
So did she think maybe if I can confess to this murder,
maybe they'll send me to adifferent prison.
I don't have to be with thisguy.

Well she, she ran away from his plantation in
Scott, Arkansas.
He was a wealthy plantationowner because back then $1,000
was like, like you said, a houseis like $35,000 or more today
with inflation, but she went tothe detective, I think for help,
and then he railroaded her intothis confession because there's

(42:42):
a photograph in my book and youcan tell by the way she's
looking at this detective.
He looks like something out ofa Tennessee Williams.
You know, big daddy, only gonebad kind of guy in a seersucker
suit with a cigar, and she isgiving him a look that if looks
could kill, you know, I meandefinitely.

(43:03):
And so she went back to the peafarm because she was railroaded
into that confession because shedidn't want to be the sex slave
of a planter on a plantation inScott Arkansas.
And that's when they begantorturing her in the prison
systematically.
And the guy that she went to,james Pitcock he had done the

(43:26):
same thing to another woman sixyears before.
Winona Green was her name andshe was a young, beautiful
murder suspect and so he got herto.
Basically, his claim to famewas I get all the women murder
suspects, I'm your guy.
So he had a pattern.

But it's wow, that's a detective right yeah,
james pitcock.

And so she went back to the pea farm and
everything was different nowshe's escaped three times but
she is she.
She has then escaped threetimes that's when she became an
escape artist and that's whenshe used her river skills, which
included sewing, to do herescape dress, I'd she I'd get

(44:14):
the hell out of there too if Iwas being abused.

I mean, some of the abuse that she got in the
prison was what.

Oh my God.
Well, she wasn't the only one.
We found actual historicdocuments online about Winona

(44:44):
Green six years before.
Helen Spence, especially at thepea farm, were stripped naked
and spread eagled over a picklebarrel and flogged with a
leather strop called the blacksnake.
But there were a lot of other.
I got her whole prison filesent to me from the arkansas
department of corrections andhelen spence was only five feet
tall and 125 pounds, size fiveshoe.
So yeah, was tiny, but theywere beating her.
They were putting her intocages and setting them out in

(45:06):
the sun, wow, and God knows whatelse, but she didn't want to
stay.

Cool hand, luke shit going on Do what.
The cool hand Luke shit goingon there.

Well, after all of this happened, mean the
everybody remembers brew baker.
That was about arkansas tuckerprison and cummins prison brew
baker yeah, it was bad.

This bad it makes it makes a chicago prison that
was mostly just overcrowded looklike a vacation.
A lot of these, a lot of thesework farms god, you didn't want
to get on one of those.

And that's exactly where she was and the
girls at the farm it was nevermore than a couple or three
dozen women, and there was oneguy that was the trustee guard,
but he himself was a convictedmurderer.
His name was Frank Martin.
So you've got the trifecta ofbad guys.
You've got Jack Willsall's, whokilled Cicero Spence and

(46:04):
everything set in motion.
Then you've got Jim Bohat's,the wild card that comes back to
haunt us, and then Frank Martin, the trustee guard, who took
the rap for killing Helen Spence, shot while escaping, quote
unquote, but she did make three,possibly five, escape attempts

(46:24):
because they did actually keeppunishment reports.

Andrea (46:26):
Oh my Lord.

Yeah, and how she did it, andrea, was she
saved the red and white clothgingham napkins from the prison
laundry, sewed them into thelining of her prison dress in
such a way that it looked like acouture garment.
And when they shipped theprisoners up to Memphis to send
them to the brothels to makemoney for the pea farm, she put

(46:53):
her dress on.

They sent them to the brothels in Memphis.

I guess the business in the North Pulaski
got slow because of the GreatDepression and they took those
girls where the money was andmade them turn tricks to bring
money back to the prison.

Wow, and they didn't get to keep any of it
either, did they?

What do you think?
They were just trafficked,basically Right.
And when she was killed theylooked through her pockets and
all she had was a tiny littlebroken mirror and a little
lipstick and a broken comb.
She didn't have anything, butwhat she did have was her skills
and she sewed the gingham clothnapkins into the lining of her

(47:38):
prison dress gingham clothnapkins into the lining of her
prison dress.
And when they got to WestMemphis the bus stopped at the
station and she requested to usethe ladies room, went in there,
turned her dress inside out andjust waltzed away because she
was gorgeous.

Andrea (47:54):
Yeah, and she's dressed differently in a different
outfit and they probably weren'tpaying attention.

Picks her hair up a little bit, wash her face.

Yeah because she really was beautiful Very
dark, beautiful silky black hair, dark brown eyes, very petite,
gorgeous smile, Even her mugshotlooks like a fashion
advertisement.

How?

Andrea (48:19):
did she keep getting caught to going back?
Was she just not able todisappear?
Or is it difficult in that timeframe to well, or was it just
the fact that you know she?
How did it happen?
They?

always knew that she would go to the only
place that she cared about,which was back to the lower
white river, and so they alwayscaught up with her.
The first time she escaped, shewas gone for a few hours.
The second time, according tothe report, she was captured.
She made it all the way to theArkansas River from the location

(48:53):
of the pea farm in NorthPulaski County, but they caught
up with her at the river there.
I don't know how long it tookfor them to catch up with her.
After they took her to go toMemphis and she escaped from the
West Memphis bus station, butthey followed her route that she
would take to get back to theriver, and then they really

(49:13):
started torturing her becausethey knew that.
She knew that.
They knew that she knew whatthey were up to and they even
sent her to, like the statemental asylum and they kept her
there for a few weeks.
But they told the prison she isnot crazy.
We need space for people whoare insane here, so take her

(49:37):
back to the prison.
But while she was at theArkansas mental asylum she wrote
a memoir and, being so youngand innocent, she provided the
return address of the prison andshe sent this memoir to Liberty
Magazine, where it got rejectedand sent back to the prison.

So then they really, her days were numbered
oh oh no, now they know allabout her wanting to do this,
that and the other and want totell, oh my gosh, so how did all
this?
So she, she gets out is so I'malways interested.
Was there a car chase?

A car chase Was there a car chase.
She got out of that bus and outof that bus depot and I don't
know.
We do have a wonderful Model Tthat I got to use for free for
my friend in the film and thatwas so much fun.

Nice.

So much fun.
But yeah, speaking of duringthis time period, this was the
summer of 1934.
So that was when the ClydeBarrow gang and Bonnie Parker
kept crisscrossing Arkansas intheir quote unquote death car.
So there was stuff going onthat was in the news nonstop.

(50:56):
And when they finally did catchup with Bonnie and Clyde and
when they finally did catch upwith Bonnie and Clyde, it was
after they had crisscrossedArkansas to get over to
Louisiana and they had a stolenArkansas plate on their car.
Their bodies were taken and puton display in Dallas and sold
500,000 copies of the DallasMorning News.

(51:18):
And so Helen was headed for thesame treatment because they
began equating her with anoutlaw, when she really wasn't.
She was more like Maddie Ross.

She's trying to survive.
I bet you a dollar that becausethe river folks they probably
wouldn't.
It be interesting if, when oneof those escapes, when she
finally got home, and there'sBonnie just hanging out Because
that's where Bonnie and Clydehad to hang out with the people
who weren't interested indealing with the law.

Andrea (51:53):
Yeah.

So you know they got to have pit stop.
You got to buy some gas, needto take a bath.
You're going to find somebodylike the river folks or whatever
.

The river people wouldn't have put up with
Clyde Barrow.
The river people would not haveput up.
He wouldn't have lasted 10minutes.
On the levee Clyde Barrow, theywere spending their times in
motor pools.

I didn't mean that they were going to be there
partying with them.
I mean they would stop there,you know, get gas or something,
keep moving, because they're not.
These people aren't going toreport them to the cops oh no,
they'll take matters in theirown hands.

No because actually there were river people
that uh had interacted withcole younger and his gang, the
younger brothers yeah uh, thathad been down in the lower white
river area near a place calledcold spring.
So I have some stories in mybook about that, so they were
not they did not look down onoutlaws yeah, they did not look

(52:51):
down on outlaws or anything theriver people, but they weren't
just don't do anything bad whileyou're here, yeah they didn't
want any drama on their water.

Andrea (53:01):
Yeah, yeah so how come the river people that be like
you know screw you?
You have one of my own.
I'm going to go um bust her outof jail because like, yeah,
what would prevent?

that like myself.
Uh, these were people thattraveling was.
Unless it was by the riverroute, they didn't have cars.
They didn't have cars.
It was very hard, that's true.
That's a good point.
Even today it's so remote.
You go down below.

St.

Charles, and you feel like you're in a
different primeval world.

Yeah, yeah, uh-huh, yeah yeah.
It's interesting because youcan go to the Stuttgart Airport,
where there's still remnants ofthe World War II training
facility that they did for theAir Force.
You walk in there and thebunkers where they kept the
bombs and the ammunition isstill there, and the train depot
where they would take thesoldiers.

(53:57):
The soldiers came in throughtrain.
They didn't come flying in.
Yeah yeah, they came in throughtrain because there's too many
of them and it's all still there, or the remnants of it are
there and it's like it hasn'tbeen gone for more than 10, 15
years, but it's been 60, 70years since those things quit
being used.

Andrea (54:14):
Wow, it's interesting.

Yeah, funny, you should mention.

Andrea (54:17):
Yeah, funny, you should mention that I want to go see
this stuff.

Oh, I would love for you to watch the movie,
and the thing about it is itsounds like it would be just the
most depressing movie of alltime, because this poor woman is
forced to endure these terriblethings and she's not an outlaw.
She was a woman who knew toomuch and could express herself,
and so once they read what shewrote, they knew that they could
not let her tell her storyabout what was really going on

(54:43):
behind the closed doors of thepea farm.
And yeah, but the thing abouttell me how.
what I think about Stuttgart wasgoing to tell you because Mr
Brown, my friend, who he passedaway in 2015, but he always
wanted the book to become amovie and so I told him, I

(55:04):
promised I would do whatever ittook, so he would be really
happy to know that I'm sharingwith you this wild story.
He told me that is not in thebook because it was from his 12,
13-year-old 14-year-old yearsat school.
It was about the Stuttgartpilot training program prior to

(55:28):
World War II, like you weretalking.
Oh, yeah, so they had glidersokay, they were training these
guys to use gliders okay andthey flew a glider out over the
big Creek, charlton Creek area,which is a swamp near Forks,

(55:48):
lagru Swamp, and the glider wentdown and Elsie Brown found it
when he was out running trapswith his wolf dog.
It was not a dog, it was he hada companion who was a wolf that
he had raised from a puppy, andso they would go and check
traps in the swamps and Elsiefound the glider, crashed in the

(56:10):
swamp with the two dead pilotsand he dug makeshift graves and
buried those pilots and tried toget brush and hide the glider
because he didn't want anyone tothink that river people had
shot down a plane he was tryingto protect oh, wow and so he
goes to school which was aone-room schoolhouse and he's

(56:32):
like in the eighth or ninthgrade.
And here comes the military, tothe one-room schoolhouse and
they, they had found out.

Looking for their glider.

Well, they had found out that LC Brown was the
best tracker, and so theywanted to talk to him.
And when he wouldn't tell themanything he just would not talk
they started threatening him.
And then, when they couldn'tthreaten him, they started
threatening to have his father'sretirement from World War I
taken away.

(57:02):
And that's when which theycouldn't have ever done Well
they were trying to scare a kid,you know, into doing what they
wanted.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so theteacher came to the military men
and pushed Elsie out of the wayand said look here, you're
never going to get anywhere withthis boy.
Take him home, talk with hisfather, work something out.

(57:25):
You're not going to getanywhere threatening him.
So they did that.
And the dad told Sheriff Lim,told LC, show him what you found
.
Nobody's in trouble, it was anaccident.
No river people are going to bepunished.
Nobody shot it down.
So he, lc, took Wolf and thetwo military guys into the swamp

(57:45):
and they were real nervous tobe walking through a swamp with
a wolf.

And Elsie said and a kid with those had a shoe.

Right and Elsie said that he was so PO at
these two guys for being soheavy handed that he led them
around in circles for four hourseven though they could have
gone to the plane in like 20minutes.

So how did this lady's story end?

Helen Spence's story ends in a hopeful way
because, even though she wasshot while escaping, she met
people on the road that rememberher to this day their
descendants.
We interviewed two familiesthat were the last ones to see
Helen as she walked down theroad.
She just basically climbed overa fence one day after they had

(58:41):
beaten her and done everythingthey could do to try to kill her
, and she kept.
She was on digitalis, that'show bad off she was, but she
just kept going and they sent aposse after her and it's not for
certain who pulled the trigger?
Because Frank Martin took therap.
Who pulled the trigger?

(59:04):
Because frank martin took therap.
But frank martin had a shotgunand helen spence was shot with a
pistol, shot an execution style, shot behind the right ear in
front of two women oh wow infront of two women that were a
niece and and an aunt, that werehanging clothes on the line on
car Carmichael road by a well,and they had just given Helen

(59:24):
Spence civilians her last drinkof water.
And after I made the movie Ifound out I went to school with
their great great niece.

It's all connected, oh wow, so they and
she.
She was literally shot behindthe ear.

Yes.
And then, even worse than that,after these two nice ladies put
a sheet from the line to coverher body, some newspaper men or
people from the prison came upand ripped open her blouse and
shoved a pistol down herhandmade bra to make it look
like she was dangerous, that shehad come 10 miles through the

(01:00:05):
woods in the middle of the nightwith a giant pistol between her
in her cleavage, which wasafter she was dead.

Paul G Newton (01:00:14):
Oh wow, they took a picture of it so everybody
could think she had this big oldgun that she's running around
with Like how she's going to geta gun when she's in prison.

Andrea (01:00:22):
I mean really, oh, that was it.

Denise Parkinson (01:00:24):
They said that she had stolen it, but it was
all a setup.

Andrea (01:00:30):
Yeah, did anything positive come out of this, like
was there any prison reformbecause of what happened, or
anything?

The warden and her husband both lost their
jobs, which was the worst thatcould happen to you in the Great
Depression.
Well, it was the women's prison.
Yes, the woman who was thewarden.

Oh, we've got a really great actress in our film
that portrays her kind of likea southern version of Nurse
Ratched.

You know, oh okay, she's very effective.
You make Andrea mad enough.

Andrea (01:01:07):
So the warden I'm not that kind of nurse.

No, she's scary, and there were actual
medical tortures taking place inthe prison.
I just don't like to talk aboutit, but that is part of the
horribleness of the system.

I think we really need to do some more research
on this prison system thing thatthey got going on.
I'd like to delve deep and tosee what's going on with that
and what legislaturelegislatures did to make that
stop and why they tore it down.

They tore it down to the ground after the
scandal of the cover up of HelenSpence getting quote unquote,
shot while escaping because thecover up was based on prolific
writer, that they put these twoexamples of her handwriting side
by side on the front page ofthe Gazette.
And the grand jury said this isa forgery.
Someone had written on the backof her rejection slip, forged
her supposed I will not be takenalive and it all fell apart
from there and thesuperintendent of the entire
prison system, a man named AGStedman, the one that had
ordered them to keep her in acage.

(01:02:32):
He had to resign.
He resigned in disgrace.
But the sad thing is AndreaFrank Martin, the guy who took
the rap, as the supposed triggerman.
When there is a question thatit might have been a Brockman
behind the rap, A pistol triggerpulling the trigger.
He was let off on atechnicality from being held

(01:02:57):
responsible for shooting her andhe went on to.
They had cut a deal with him.
So he was paroled and he wasnot a nice man.
But here's some good riverjustice for you.
After he had been paroled foryears and had a wife and
children and he was mean to allof them and had a wife and
children and he was mean to allof them.
He was working as a farmlaborer and he went into a small

(01:03:21):
town grocery in Casco thatBilly sent me photographs of,
Anyway, Cloud's Grocery, andthere was a lady working there
behind the counter and she wasfrom the river.
But Frank Martin, he didn'tknow that and he's always
bragging I'm the one that shotthe notorious Helen Spence.
Well, the lady behind thecounter said oh, you want a loaf

(01:03:42):
of bread?
Here's a different loaf ofbread.
It costs less but it's just asgood.
So Frank Martin took that loafof bread, went home, had dinner
and did not wake up the nextmorning and the river people
always said the river got him.
And after that Helen Spence'sbody was put on display in North
Little Rock and again inArkansas County and the river

(01:04:03):
people came in the middle of thenight, took her body to the
potter's field of the St CharlesCemetery, which is where her
houseboat was when she wasgrowing up later and they buried
her and now people makepilgrimages to her grave and my
mentor, who's a philanthropist,who helped me with the film, she

(01:04:26):
purchased a footstone for HelenSpence because the river people
had planted a cedar tree at thehead of her grave and that's
still there and it's beautiful,and so people come to her grave
and they plant flowers and theyleave mussel shells on her grave
and it's a place of pilgrimage.

(01:04:47):
Because our our thing is toclear helen spence's name.
Because even as recently as afew years ago, Paul, there was a
state archives person, astaffer, who said at a seminar,
in front of a room full ofeducators, that Helen Spence
deserved what she got becauseshe had been sleeping around,

(01:05:11):
she had been sleeping around ina women's prison and got
pregnant.
She had been sleeping around ina women's prison and got
pregnant when my book in my bookit says very clearly that five
medical professionals, includingthe state medical examiner,
were on hand at the autopsy andthey all five said she's not
pregnant.
So that was another red herring.

(01:05:31):
So I'm just doing my best tokeep my vow to mr brown and,
like he vowed, just becausesomebody is promiscuous or seems
on the outside as promiscuousone.

It doesn't apply in this case, because she didn't
have chance to.
She's in jail for as soon asshe turned around, but doesn't
make any difference, they'restill a human being.
And two, they're freaking.
Yeah, okay, so she had, she hadto do prostitution work.
It's not by choice.
They told her she had to do it.
So I don't see why anybodyshould ever say that the woman

(01:06:06):
sleeps around, so she's notworth it anyway.

Andrea (01:06:09):
Yeah, that's not right, that's terrible I got one
question though exactly what wasthe catalyst that broke this
whole thing open?
Because it sounds like to meI'm just thinking that if they
shot her, then they've.
Then how?
How did the information comeout that someone from the prison
just have, like I don't know, amoment of, oh, we got to do the
right thing.
Did the ladies hold, and whatactually broke?

(01:06:30):
The scandal of what they didactually broke.
The scandal of what they did.

Well, here's it.
Here's an example of how theold Delta saying even a blind
hog can find an acorn once in awhile really is true, because
what happened was the media hadwritten all these stories about
Helen Spence.
I mean, it was from the NewYork Times, it was picked up by
the Associated Press, so it wasall over the local papers.

(01:06:56):
It was all over, and back thenyou had morning papers and
afternoon papers too, andeverything was super cheap,
difficult to find accounts thatlined up exactly because people
just started writing stuff abouther like she was some kind of

(01:07:19):
made-up superhero.
But after she was shot whileescaping, um, all the river
people, and even the dry landerstoo, could see through it
because it was so blatantly acover-up, and there was just
this huge outcry and all themedia, that coverage that had,

(01:07:39):
you know, been a two-edged sword.
Back when she was still alive,it brought the house down
because the, the journaliststhemselves were like no, no,
this is yeah, they startedseeing.

They're like wait what's going on and then the
grand jury.
Okay, yeah they heard all thereal evidence, not the garbage
yellow journalism.
This is the era still the eraof yellow journalism.
In spanish-american war was nota real war, it was yellow
journalism put on by pulitzer.
And hearst they, they're makingup headlines so that they,

(01:08:16):
these guys writing for thesepapers, just think it's okay to
do that.
Cause look at Hearst did it,randolph Hearst did it.

Well, there was never any bylines on any of
these stories, no bylineswhatsoever.

So consider yeah, it's cause they were false.
They were made up.

They, they were just it was a free-for-all
back then because paper wascheap, because Arkansas was
being clear-cut and all the pulpwas going into newsprint and,
uh, you know, not a lot haschanged, uh, from back then to
now, because now we just havelots of ions turning your screen

(01:08:54):
colors so that you can see thefalse information that comes
from everywhere, called facebookand youtube and whatever but
that's where I am thankful,because check this out when I
wrote this book, uh, it was backin 2010.
I've been working on, you know,getting the film done ever since

(01:09:14):
and and it's finally done, butwhen I was writing it, there was
no podcasting.
Now there's podcasting andbecause of people like you,
helen Spence is known thanks tomy audio book all over the world
, but she's still not known inArkansas, because nobody wants a
river rat to stand up and tellthe truth.
And that's what I am I'm ariver rat.

Well, you know, Andrea and I are all for it.

Andrea (01:09:42):
Yes.

Please stand up and tell the truth.
And there's, you know, there'sall kinds of stories in Arkansas
that people just don't talkabout, and that's what we do in
Arkansas.
I think that's one of ourfortes of social interaction is
we just don't talk about thatstuff around here.
That's kind of a thing thatcomes along all the time.
So where can they find yourbook One?

Well, you can find it online and you can find
it at, for example, in Stuttgart, at the Museum of the Grand
Prairie.
They they've been selling itfor years and you can request it
at your local bookstore.
And I am in talks with apublisher for my second book,
which is basically a sequel tothis, which contains a lot more

(01:10:29):
memories and stories from myfamily that were river people,
and there is a funny saying onthe river.
I don't know if this will bebleeped out or not, but I kept
hearing it.

No, there's no bleeping here.
You can say whatever the hellyou want, it doesn't matter.

Well, it's funny because my film was
thoroughly rejected.
My book's never been reviewedin Arkansas.
It was reviewed outside thestate of Arkansas and called a
work of regional significance.
But there's been a total mediablackout on my work and all the
film festivals rejected it.
And I'm like what's going on?
I think it's a good film andI'm I'm what?

(01:11:09):
Am I?
A top liver?
Oh, I'm a real rat.
And one of the one of the guyssaid to me.

No, it's not that I'll tell you what he said.

He said it's because there's two kinds of
people in this world river ratsand sons of bitches.
Now, which one are you?

well, I, you know , I I make films.
I've got for people who don'tknow, I've got an Emmy, seven
Associated Press Awards forediting.
Awesome and I've got a 13 filmfestival places and wins and so

(01:11:49):
on and so forth.
I got a lot of accolades overit and I can tell you right now
it's just getting.
When somebody rejects your filmdepends on the film, depends on
where you're putting it in,because you really have to judge
the festival and the stuff thatthey've awarded to in the past,
whether or not they're going toeven let it in.

(01:12:09):
And that's because it's all.
I hate to say it, but it's true.
It's all nepotism in thisbusiness.
It's who you know.
Well, that is funny that yousay that, and that's just the
way it is.

That is funny that you say that, because the
top two producers the executiveproducers of my little low
budget indie Arkansas historydocumentary based on my book,
women who won 2022's ArkansasGovernor's Award for lifelong
you know everything you know.

(01:12:39):
I don't even know the names ofthese awards.
The other one, she, was the2022 Arkansas Women's Hall of
Fame inductee.
Those were my executiveproducers of my nonprofit
affiliated film.
So I have to wonder is it thesubject matter?
Because their other film thatthey did together, champion
trees and artist journey, was anEmmy one, three Emmys.

Well, what we can do, then, is we can encourage
everyone listening, which are alot of locals.
A lot of locals listen to whatwe're talking about, mostly up
in Northwest Arkansas, but youknow, billy Rabidek is obviously
going to be listening, becausewe keep talking about him.
He's like oh, you want to talkabout me, I'm gonna listen
anyway um let's watch where'sworking the movie.

(01:13:25):
Oh oh, I had to go out to boxleya couple weeks ago.
I'm trying to do one on hayleyzega that she got lost out there
for two days and she was asix-year-old girl oh my gosh.

And some other man, a hiker, just got lost in
him, didn't hollow, I think he.

There's scuttlebutt that he was out
there doing something else, sowe'll have to save that for
later because, that's a wholenother podcast what's going on
there, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'reworking on that one too.

I love the Delta, I love the Ozarks.
I used to live in the BoxleyValley, which is like heaven on
earth, and we drank water out ofan artesian spring at the top
of a Bernie Ridge, and now Ilive next to a creek in the
Ouachita Mountains.
So I'm an Arkansas girl, I'm aforest term.

Andrea (01:14:12):
Wow.

So if somebody wants to watch your movie, where
can they find it?

They can come to Stuttgart November 13th.
Uh, but no.
That's the only movie theaterleft in the Delta, practically
is the Stuttgart twin.
It took me all summer tonegotiate with the out of state
owner of the Stuttgarttwinuttgart Twin to bring this
film to the Delta, I had toraise the money to rent it up
front.

(01:14:40):
I rented the other twoscreenings because, like I said,
we were shut out of anyfestival support and I did send
it to festivals that I thought,based on their track record,
would know what I was doing andwould appreciate it.
But nobody wants to hear ariver rat stand up and tell the
truth, and that's to this veryday.

Hot Springs has a documentary film festival they
might like you might be.

Oh, that was the first place that I got lied
to by, yeah.

Andrea (01:15:10):
Wow, oh you know what they said.
You know what they said.
We need to do.
They said gatekeepers.
They said gatekeepers.

They said you can't get past the gatekeepers.
It's the gatekeepers.
They won't let you reach youraudience.
It's the gatekeepers.

And I was like, but this is a River film and
there's no gates on the levee.
Well, we're going to watch it,we're going to encourage people
to watch it.
Well, we're going to watch it,we're going to encourage people
to watch it.
So we've got you in Stuttgart,arkansas, which is three and a
half hours from where I'msitting right now.
But in Stuttgart, arkansas,what day is it showing?

Yeah, you could.
It's just ridiculous.
R-dot is completely closingI-30 that whole weekend.
So for the first time inArkansas history, r-dot is
closing I-30 between November11th and 14th.
Unless they canceled it, thatwas what came out in the paper
the other day and on the news,so they're definitely cutting

(01:16:02):
the state in half RDOT, the sameRDOT that destroyed the River
People's National HistoricBridge at Clarendon.
Rdot's really going hard butwe're going to be in the Delta
screening it.
But after stuck arts premiereit will be available as a
digital download through mymusic composer, who's another
delta girl named sj tucker andshe's a goddess and she did the

(01:16:27):
music, most of the music for thefilm.
You're up in north arkansas.
You probably know the otherpeople that did music for my
film.
It's uh kelly and donna mahalanof still on the hill okay, yeah
, I don't think I've personallyheard of them so, so where is it
going to be?

do you have it on a website?

I don't know, we were trying to get a website
called daughter of the whiterivercom and we paid money to a
drylander to create the websiteand he took all the money and he
went off to LA.

Do you have the URL?
Do you own the URL?

We have the film, but we are going to make
it available as a digitaldownload that you can purchase
in a bundle after the November13th premiere.
I've done all the premieresmyself, okay, so yeah.

So where can they get the?
Where can they get the downloadfrom?
How can we buy it?

Keep your eyes open for SJ Tucker.
She has a digital set ofdigital platforms that has to do
with band camp and Patreon andthis and that.
But if you keep track, if youstart keeping track now of this
marvelous singer and performerwho's traveled all over the
world but isn't very well knownin arkansas, gee, it's a motif.

(01:17:47):
Maybe it has something to dowith us both being delta artists
delta born artists I think it'sjust.

The people in arkansas are just different,
because I ran into the samething and I'm not, you know, I'm
just a dude, and so it's it's.
Arkansas has got its problemswhen it comes to art, so
especially digital art, andvideo for you guys thing and I
could do a.
I could do a whole hour on justthe crap that I put up with,

(01:18:16):
just being here, but it'snothing.
I don't think it's personal.
I think we just need to get outof the state.
That's all Well.
Thank God for the World WideWeb, it's just the state.

There's plenty of people in.
New York and Canada and Japan,who are huge fans of John Spence
All right, so check her out.

She'll obviously.
She'll probably have a link tothe website or to the download
whenever it comes out, and we Ireally appreciate you coming on
and telling us this story.
It's pretty, it's been prettycool.

Andrea (01:18:47):
Yes, thank you so much.

Thank you, and I hope I could distract you all
from you know a Sundayafternoon to think about
something that it seems dark butthen you realize she died 88
years ago and she was literallyforgotten about for decades and
decades and decades.
But we are closer now toclearing her name and restoring

(01:19:10):
her good name and the riverpeople.
It's like she's only been gonea few minutes.
It's like she's just on theother side of a door all right.

So, andrea, I guess uh any thoughts.
Any last thing?

Andrea (01:19:24):
no, just thank you for telling us the story, learn some
new things and, um, I can'twait to buy your book.
Definitely like this story.

I definitely want to read more very nice well,
hey guys, you don't have to youdon't have to buy my book.

I will mail it to you nice.

Well, when we're done with the recording, we'll
give you the address yes, thankyou, I would love that yeah, um
so we've got some.
We've still got some interest.
This is kind of a surprise thatI pulled on you, andrea, about,
but about the, the river people.

Andrea (01:19:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You didn't know this was happening and I was
like oh, no, no no, no, shemight be interested.
It's kind of a true crime.

Andrea (01:20:02):
Yeah, I like true crime yeah.

But we've got some more folks coming up.
Who was it now that we've gotcoming up again?
You've got to look at the notes.

Andrea (01:20:15):
You're supposed to write this down.
Oh, come on.
Come on, we've got a gentlemanthat's going to talk about opera
.
We have opera.

Oh yeah.

Andrea (01:20:27):
Or lady, excuse me, yeah , we've got.

You wanted to know about the opera, so I was
like I'm going to book an operaAbout Afghanistan, oh yeah, the
people of Afghanistan that'sright, who they really are and
what they really do, and justhow difficult it is to live in
Afghanistan, especially duringthe war, before we left.

Andrea (01:20:50):
And that's all that I remember.
I know you've got three others,I just can't remember exactly
what they are.
There's some really interestingstuff coming up.

I'm going to start trying to find even more
eclectic stuff, if I possiblycan.
I'm going to really get someinteresting stuff.
Do we want to still do any moreghosts or anything like that?
Do you want to try to do thatagain?

Andrea (01:21:10):
I don't know.
Let's just see what we can findI don't know.

Let's just see what we can find, because you
know there's lots of people outthere, but it's Sasquatch I
really need to put the Sasquatchtogether, don't I?

Andrea (01:21:19):
Yes, I kind of want to know what is the hype on Bigfoot
.

Bigfoot, the Bigfeet, bigfeet Is it a family
of them or are they Bigfeet?

Andrea (01:21:26):
I have Bigfeet or Bigfoots.

Iumb.
All right, so I guess that's it, and you guys, if you want to
help us out, please go to thepodcasting application of your
choosing at what you'relistening to us on now and give
us five stars.
If you't give us five stars,I'm going to send um nothing
because I don't know who you are.

(01:21:58):
But you should give me fivestars, yeah I got gar I got a
picture of my great greatgrandfather with that gar in his
boat.
It's huge, um, but give us fivestars.
Leave a review.
That would help us out verymuch.
Check out my website,paulgnuttoncom.
It has.
You can look at my photographyand my video stuff.

(01:22:19):
I'm not there trying to sellyou something, but I will in the
future because I'm trying tofigure that out where I could
put swag on there.

Andrea (01:22:25):
I'm gonna have a t-shirt that says oh, my god, paul,
because I do say that a lot, Ido say that a lot, I do say that
a lot this is do say that a lot.

This is true.

Andrea (01:22:34):
That would be a funny t-shirt.

And some other things.
But check us out and the moreyou rate us, the more people
that rate us with five stars,the better we get in the
algorithm and the more peoplecan hear us, and I would love
for more people to hear usbecause that's fun and I'd
appreciate it.
So I guess that's it.

Andrea (01:22:53):
I think so, all right, bye.

Bye guitar solo, thank you.

(01:24:03):
So go to wherever you'relistening to your podcast Apple,
itunes, spotify, iheartmedia,wherever and hit that five stars

(01:24:24):
.

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Helen Spence's Fight for River Justice in the Arkansas Delta (repost)

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