May 25, 2023 • 27 mins
Nearly 300 million vehicles are on American roads today. Nearly all of them run on gasoline or diesel, so a large-scale shift to electric power would be transformative. A new Texas A&M University System venture is working to figure out how that might work.
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Episode Transcript
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Bernie Fette (host) (00:14):
Hello and welcome to Thinking
Transportation. Conversationsabout how we get ourselves and
the things we need from oneplace to another. I'm Bernie
Fette with the Texas A&MTransportation Institute. Only
a small fraction of cars onAmerican roads today are
powered by electricity, butthat wasn't always the case. In
(00:38):
1900, roughly a third of allvehicles were running on
batteries. Gas-powered cars,however, quickly became the
norm for some of the samereasons that bedevil electric
cars today -- mainly range andaffordability. But with
technology advancements andpublic policy incentives,
(00:59):
alternative fuel vehicles aremaking a comeback. Electrified
mobility holds the promise toradically change how we move
people and products, but onlyafter we find answers to a
number of questions. Powergeneration, battery technology,
affordability, charginginfrastructure, and more. Not
(01:20):
to mention the implications ofshifting the focus of entire
industries. Understanding itall can be overwhelming, but we
have someone here who can helpus understand. Tara Ramani is a
research engineer at TTI andDeputy Director of the Center
for Advancing Research inTransportation Emissions,
(01:40):
Energy and Health. Thank you somuch for being here, Tara .
Tara Ramani (guest) (01:45):
Thanks, Bernie . Great to be here.
Bernie Fette (01:48):
Okay. TTI is a partner agency in the
Electrified MobilityCollaborative, which is a
venture that the Texas A&MUniversity system launched
somewhat recently. So what'sthe Collaborative hoping to
accomplish?
Tara Ramani (02:06):
So, Bernie, as you said, this is something that
the Texas A&M University systemkicked off and we had a launch
event last month and it waspretty successful. And we had a
bunch of people from across theTexas A&M University System --
folks from Kingsville andPrairie View and all the other
(02:26):
institutions across the stateas well. The overall intent was
to establish something like acommunity of practice in this
area, and we went with sort ofthe broad title of electrified
mobility because it's somethingthat's pretty all encompassing
and seems to be everywhere,right? Wherever you go, people
are talking abouttransportation,
electrification, electricvehicles, and it was the intent
(02:50):
of the system leadership to saythat we need to establish some
kind of a community of practicewhere we can share information,
know what the others are doing.
The end goal, of course, is forus to therefore be more
impactful in the research workthat we pursue.
Bernie Fette (03:08):
Right. And as you mentioned, this is a university
system-wide initiative, and weshould remember just for
reference that the A&M Systemis 11 universities and eight
state agencies. So there's apretty broad reach of areas of
expertise beyond TTI. So why isthis work important?
Tara Ramani (03:27):
So as I alluded to before, electrified mobility
seems to be everywhere. And forthose of you who've been
tracking just the news comingout of federal funding programs
and things like that, there isa push towards electrifying our
transportation system that ismoving from the existing
internal combustion enginevehicles to electric vehicles.
(03:49):
The reason for this isprimarily for greenhouse gas
emissions reductions ordecarbonization, right? So to
reduce carbon emissions, theintent is that if you have an
electric vehicle and it ispowered by a clean grid, you
could essentially decarbonizethe transportation sector a lot
(04:09):
easier than if you had internalcombustion vehicles. Keeping in
mind the sort of policyimperatives, right? Where the
federal government, as well asseveral others are investing in
infrastructure to charge thesevehicles as well as
incentivizing the manufactureand purchase of these vehicles.
Mm-hmm., thereare a lot of research
opportunities that come up. Soobviously for us, we are
(04:30):
thinking of it from a researchas well as a societal impact
perspective, right? So the ideais that we should systematize
what's going on and understandthe landscape because it is
being viewed as one of the nextbig things.
Bernie Fette (04:44):
Right. Let's try to put this in a historical
context if we can. Youmentioned the internal
combustion engine. It was justa little more than a century
ago that that engine started toreplace the horse-drawn option
for mobility. So with that as areference point, how would you
frame the pursuit ofelectrified mobility in
(05:07):
American history? How big isthis?
Tara Ramani (05:10):
That's an interesting question. And in
some ways this is a fundamentalshift in the boundaries of
transportation andinfrastructure. When you think
of the electric component,whereas before the vehicles
carry their fuel source intheir gas tanks, and so the
boundaries of theinfrastructure ended with maybe
the roads that they run on, andof course the fueling
(05:32):
facilities and everything.
However, now it's a coupling ofthese two infrastructure
systems, right? So the electricgrid with the transportation
system , so it becomesso-called like a system of
systems or a coupledinfrastructure, which has its
own challenges. And in thatsense it is different. However,
from a systems perspective,most of the electric vehicles
(05:55):
today are just replacing theirequivalent internal combustion
engine vehicles. So you know, aTesla sedan is replacing some
other kind of sedan that wasrunning on the road. And the
way they operate on the systemis not fundamentally changing
beyond the charging orrefueling element. So while
this is perhaps more alignedwith our existing
(06:19):
transportation system, thecoupling with infrastructure I
think creates a sort ofdifferent set of issues.
Bernie Fette (06:26):
I see. So when we're talking about electrified
mobility, and you talked aboutsedans mm-hmm.,
what vehicle groups are wetalking about? Is this just
about electric cars or are wetalking a more broad
perspective than that?
Tara Ramani (06:39):
So I think we wanted to, as part of this
collaborative start broader,initially when we were setting
it up, there was quite a bit ofdiscussion about should it be
an electric vehiclecollaborative versus a mobility
collaborative, right? Becauseeach of them have a slightly
different connotation. And Ithink we went with mobility not
just to encompass all vehicletypes, right? And when it comes
(07:02):
to all vehicle types, primarilyit's the on-road personal
vehicles where mm-hmm .
, we are seeingthe transition to
electrification happening thequickest. However, freight is
also a very big issue. Freightis a sector that is
electrifying, and if you followsome of the recent rules from
the Environmental ProtectionAgency, they have greenhouse
(07:23):
gas emission standards thatthey're proposing, which would
in effect ensure that evenheavy duty vehicles are going
to electrify. So all of that iswithin the bounds of this
initiative, but we also framedit as mobility to add in
exploration of some of thepolicy-type issues.
Bernie Fette (07:42):
Right, so it's all inclusive.
Tara Ramani (07:43):
Correct. Yes. And some of the other things that
were talked about as sort ofniche sectors in electrified
mobility, but we decided we'restill to the extent possible
going to be addressed by ourinitiative are things like
adaptive e-bikes, which areused more for access for
certain sectors of thepopulation. You know, mobility
(08:04):
options that are more prevalentin certain areas like
e-scooters and things likethat. But the idea was to be
able to address all of them, orat least put the information
together on all these sectors.
Bernie Fette (08:17):
And one thing that we haven't mentioned is
vertical takeoff and landingvehicles, what some people
refer to as air taxis, I think.
Tara Ramani (08:24):
Yeah, that's a great point. I think that's
something that is definitelytaking off , no pun
intended, but that's definitelybeing addressed because it is a
mobility option that in certaincases is being explored as an
alternative to on-roadvehicles.
Bernie Fette (08:41):
Okay . We have close to 300 million cars and
trucks on the road in thiscountry. Mm-hmm .
right now, just in the UnitedStates. Only a small fraction
of them are running onelectricity. So how would a
shift to electric poweractually happen? Is there a
particular sequence that couldbe simplified for the people
(09:04):
listening to help everyoneunderstand how would this
actually unfold?
Tara Ramani (09:08):
So are you meaning more from a consumer sort of
perspective or more from asystem perspective?
Bernie Fette (09:15):
No, more from a system perspective, because
you've got infrastructureissues, you've got vehicle
issues, you've got powergeneration, Mm-hmm .
and grid issues.
Is there a particular sequencethat things have to follow for
such a transformational thinglike this to actually happen ?
Tara Ramani (09:33):
You know, that's a very difficult topic, and I
think it's something thateveryone is grappling with
right now.
Bernie Fette (09:37):
I see.
Tara Ramani (09:38):
The way it's happening in real time is
obviously the vehicles arebeing more available and people
who can are purchasing them,obviously at the penetration
levels we have right now, andthe fact that the average EV
user is, you know, well off,living in their own house where
(09:58):
they can charge at home, it hasnot been as much of a
challenge, so to speak, to getthe people who can afford and
want them right now to buy themand charge them at home without
also noticeably affecting thegrid . However, in order for
these vehicles to be able tooperate more smoothly, to
(10:19):
alleviate range anxiety and allof that, there is the need for
that infrastructure. And thisis an area, obviously we work
with our partners over atelectrical engineering and
others. You know, I'm not agrid person, I'm more of a
transportation person. But myunderstanding is that at higher
levels there are somechallenges for the grid, which
are not insurmountable, butthat need to be addressed and
(10:41):
mm-hmm , thoseare both just grid capacity
under ordinary conditions,right. For everyday use. If you
start to electrify large levelsof the vehicles on the road, as
well as if you needconcentrated demand, say for a
particular fleet that'soperating out of a certain
place, because it appears thatthe needs for those kind of
(11:03):
specialized charging or highlevels of charging might
include um, the expansion ofelectric infrastructure, like
adding a substation orsomething like that to provide
that electricity. And myunderstanding from some
stakeholder workshops that wehave been to is that there is
concern about how quickly thosecan happen, but there is an
acknowledgement that that needsto happen. So the
(11:25):
infrastructure piece is oneaspect, and to some extent the
market and regulations aredriving the increased
availability of these vehiclesand affordability of these
vehicles. So some peopledescribe it as a
chicken-and-egg problem.
Bernie Fette (11:41):
Right. And so the question that I think I was
trying to ask about how doesthis look as it's unfolding --
It may be that if I understandcorrectly, that that's
precisely one of the thingsthat the collaborative is
trying to figure out.
Tara Ramani (11:54):
Definitely, especially when it comes to
these questions of how to matchup a grid powered by renewables
with electric vehicles andtheir charging needs, something
that would be applicableeverywhere. It depends on your
local grid, the source of thefuel for your grid. You know,
whether you're powered by windor solar, et cetera . But
(12:15):
overall it is seen as a shiftthat's happening and that
people are, you know, kind ofaddressing to the extent
possible as they move forward.
Bernie Fette (12:24):
Okay. And I think that you touched very briefly a
little while ago on the factthat there are also public
policy-related considerations.
We can see one example of thatunfolding in the Texas
Legislature just in the lastcouple of days. The legislature
passed a law that wouldestablish a registration fee
(12:48):
level and a renewal fee forelectric vehicles. The reason
being, as you know, thatelectric vehicles don't pay in
the same way for using theroadways because they don't buy
gas and therefore they don'tpay the state gasoline tax or
the state diesel tax. So whatare some of the other policy
considerations, if there's away to briefly touch on those?
Tara Ramani (13:13):
So I think there are many different policy
issues that need to beaddressed. And I think a lot of
the discussion at this point iscentered on equity and
sustainability, right? So ifyou think of this analogy of if
you have the existingtransportation system as it is,
and if you change all thevehicles operating to EVs, is
(13:36):
that gonna solve our problems,right? Or is that gonna be a
sustainable and equitabletransportation system? And the
answer is no, because while youmight have reduced carbon
emissions, at least on roademissions, there are still
other impacts of vehicles aswell as lack of access and
equity considerations thatwould still remain. So in that
(13:57):
context, I think there are alot of gaps in terms of access
to EVs for people as well asmore fundamentally thinking
about whether in thistransition to EVs, we should
also rethink some aspects oftransportation instead of
electrifying certain sectors,maybe we provide other modes of
(14:17):
transportation instead. Sothere are some of these broader
policy issues that needconsideration as well.
Bernie Fette (14:23):
Okay . And you seem to be talking about some
of the challenges that areinherent in a pursuit like
this. Mm-hmm.Something this transformative
is going to be a pretty heavylift. And I hope maybe we could
talk just a little bit aboutsome of those challenges. I
read just in the last couple ofdays in the Washington Post
(14:46):
about a facility in Indonesiathat mines and refines nickel,
which is an important elementin producing electric vehicle
batteries. The processing ofthat ingredient also produces
about 4 million tons of toxicwaste, which is, according to
what I read, enough to fill1,667 Olympic swimming pools.
(15:12):
So when many of us consider howclean electric vehicles are, we
don't necessarily think aboutthe unintended consequences of
their increased presence on theroads. So can you help us piece
that together just a littlebit, if there's a simple way to
do it about how the ElectrifiedMobility Collaborative is
(15:33):
looking into those issues?
Tara Ramani (15:37):
Sure. And I will take a stab at it. And I think
that's a great question. It's aquestion that has come up a lot
when it comes to electricvehicles and the fact that we
are currently just setting thatboundary around to some extent
just what happens when thevehicles run, where they are
zero emissions, right? And tosome extent when they're
charged, where also they arelower carbon than your internal
(16:01):
combustion engine vehicles. ButI think the one thing that has
come up a lot, and even at TTI,we are starting to do, and
we'll be kicking off a projectsoon, is to look at a more
lifecycle perspective, right?
So looking at a lifecycle basedassessment of EVs and taking
(16:21):
into account the entire supplychain and the emissions
associated with different stepsin the process, and not just
emissions, right, butenvironmental impacts that need
to be costed on some kind of acomparable scale so that we can
truly understand what theenvironmental impacts of these
are. And I do think the batteryissue especially has come up a
(16:43):
lot. It's in the news a lot.
There are concerns with globalequity, right? There are places
in the global south that arenot going to necessarily see
the benefits of EVs that areoften the source of these
materials needed for theirmanufacturer. So these are real
problems, but they're beingtackled in a couple of ways. So
firstly, there is a lot ofresearch ongoing. Again, this
(17:05):
is not an area I'm an expertin, but even at the
collaborative and within thesystem, we've seen, you know,
alternatives to lithium,alternatives to some of the
heavy metals that are needed,ways to recycle some of these
materials and use them asopposed to mining them, et
cetera , which couldpotentially allow for lesser
impacts in producing what'sneeded for these vehicles as
(17:27):
well as reducing their impact.
So that's one aspect. And theother aspect also is of course,
comparing these vehicles acrossthe lifecycle with their
internal combustion enginecounterparts. I have seen a few
studies in this area, and Ithink overall, if we consider
the life cycle of what it takesto produce a gasoline vehicle,
(17:49):
as well as what it takes toproduce the fuel versus EVs,
you know, to my understanding,I don't recall if there is, you
know, any concrete answer ofwhat wins, but I don't believe
there is a huge disparity aswell though another issue with
EVs is just concerns about thequantity of materials needed if
(18:10):
we are to shift huge amounts ofour fleet. Mm-hmm .
. So I thinkagain , this is where there is
a lot of ongoing research andit's happening, and I suppose
there will be technologicaladvancements that allow this
without necessarily using thematerials that typically have
been until now.
Bernie Fette (18:27):
Right, right.
You've touched a couple oftimes on the environmental and
emissions mm-hmm.piece of this topic. Maybe this
would be a good time for you totalk just a little about the
environmental and emissionsresearch facility at TT and
what kind of work is being donethere. Can you share what you
know about what's going onthere?
Tara Ramani (18:48):
Sure. I'm, I'm happy to. So the Environmental
and Emissions ResearchFacility, for those of you who
may not be aware, wasoriginally built by TTI as part
of a funded project with theUnited States Environmental
Protection Agency or EPA. So atthe time, we had built that
facility to study the idling ofheavy duty trucks to understand
(19:12):
how different technologies toreduce idling emissions could
have impact in terms of fuel,emissions reduction, the
exposure that truck driversmight have when they are
sitting in these trucks duringtheir rest periods and idling
their engines. So this was ofcourse, nothing to do with
electrification when we firstbuilt this facility. And over
the years we have used thefacility to test emissions of
(19:36):
vehicles under differentoperational conditions. So it's
a climate controlled facility,which allows us to see what
happens to vehicles when it'svery cold or when it's very
hot, does that change theirperformance and their fuel
efficiency? And we had alsodone some testing on battery
electric and plug-in hybridvehicles when they started to
come into the market many yearsago. Mm-hmm . .
(19:59):
So we already had an interestin understanding these vehicles
and getting real-world datafrom them. Currently this
facility is being expanded andwe are working closely with
Texas A&M University'sDepartment of Electrical and
Computer Engineering in thisexpansion of this facility. And
(20:19):
what we are actually doing isestablishing sort of a joint
lab. The research facility isnow going to be called the
Clean Transportation ResearchComplex. Within that we have a
grid interaction facilitythat's going to be managed by
electrical engineering, andthen our environmental and
emissions research facility isbeing upgraded to allow for the
(20:42):
testing of heavy duty vehiclesas well. And one of our kickoff
projects is going to be testingof electric buses versus their
diesel counterparts underdifferent temperature
conditions and differentoperational conditions to do
some of this work that I talkedabout previously. You know,
taking a life cycle perspectiveon um, their emissions and
(21:03):
performance. So thispartnership is allowing us to
bring the grid elements closerto the vehicle elements, and we
are also going to have, throughthe engineering college, some
solar fuel sources of renewableenergy and things like that to
really create a test bed thatintegrates the electric and
(21:24):
transportation side.
Bernie Fette (21:26):
And that helps to explain, it seems, why you're
calling this a collaborativebecause there are multiple
partners who each bring theirown distinct contributions to
the research and developmenteffort.
Tara Ramani (21:38):
Absolutely. And the idea really is to treat
this as you know what it is,which is a very
multidisciplinary problem. Andwhat's interesting to me is
that everyone is talking aboutit in their own fields and
grappling about it in their ownways . So my point is there is
such a wide range ofstakeholders in this topic, and
(21:59):
when it comes to research areasas well, you can't just silo it
as a transportation researchproblem or an electrical
research problem. And so that'skind of why this collaborative
was started in the first place,was for us to map out what's
going on, understand who theplayers might be, and make sure
that we are well positioned toaddress some of these grand
(22:20):
challenges in a way that makesthe best use of everyone's
expertise.
Bernie Fette (22:26):
So much for us to learn and understand about this
topic. So many differentlayers. If you had to pick just
one or two takeaways from ourconversation today about what
you'd hope that our listenersmight remember, what would
those things be? Maybe this isyour elevator speech.
Tara Ramani (22:46):
Okay . So I think the big thing is
electrification is here. It'shappening already and it's
going to continue to happen. Itdefinitely is an opportunity
for us to decarbonizetransportation. Electrification
coupled with a renewable powergrid is definitely the way
forward from a macro sort ofbenefits perspective. But there
(23:11):
are definitely things that westill need to address to make
sure that this transition is,you know, first of all
functional and it issustainable and equitable. So
making sure that everyone hasaccess to these vehicles across
all sectors of society. And soI think it's just a fundamental
shift in the boundaries oftransportation. And it's a
(23:33):
true, I think ,multidisciplinary challenge.
And there was a lot of talk aswe started off this
collaborative about framingthis as a wicked problem,
right? And a wicked problem isone that's typically defined as
a problem that has no solution.
And so their point was thisthing of transportation
electrification is so allencompassing with so many
(23:54):
issues that it should be framedas a wicked problem. But then
as we thought about it, wesaid, that's not the right
framing. We need to frame it asa real opportunity for
transformational change. Andit's just a question of making
sure we can do it right.
Bernie Fette (24:10):
And you and your colleagues have plenty of work
to do.
Tara Ramani (24:14):
For sure. So we've done a lot, but a lot of work
remains.
Bernie Fette (24:17):
Last question, what is it that motivates you
to get up and come to workevery day ?
Tara Ramani (24:24):
Okay , so I mean, honestly, I really love my job.
I started out at TTI as agraduate student in 2006. I've
stayed here ever since. I'vereally enjoyed this job. And
what I really like is theexposure I have working on this
broad area of sustainabletransportation and studying
more in-depth liketransportation emissions and
(24:46):
things like that is, itinvolves knowing about so many
things. And this has expandedto, you know, as we talk about
electrification, but evenbefore that, transportation is
so integrated with everythingwe do. It is a part of our
lives. And in some ways it'snice to see the technical
aspects of real-world thingsand study them and things that
(25:08):
I can talk about, you know,with my family or get excited
about when I talk aboutdifferent vehicle types or
their emissions or drive cyclesand things like that. So for
me, it's just seeing thereal-world impacts of what I do
and just a great workenvironment. And I get to work
with some really smart andwonderful people, and I'm
learning every day . I wouldsay that's what I really love
(25:29):
about my job.
Bernie Fette (25:31):
Tara Ramani , research engineer at TTI and
deputy director of the Centerfor Advancing Research in
Transportation Emissions,Energy and Health. Thank you
for your time, Tara. Thank youfor helping us understand this
topic a bit more clearly. We doappreciate it.
Tara Ramani (25:51):
Thanks, Bernie.
Great to be here.
Bernie Fette (25:54):
The internal combustion engine radically
changed how people got aroundmore than a century ago. With
ongoing improvements inperformance and ample reserves
of cheap gasoline, Henry Ford'sModel T and its many successors
ruled American roadways fordecades. More recently,
(26:14):
technology advancements andconsumer interests have opened
the door to a new beginning forelectrified mobility and the
promise that it once enjoyed.
Thanks for listening. Pleasetake just a minute to give us a
review, subscribe and sharethis episode, and please join
(26:35):
us again next time for aconversation with Cathy Brooks
and Michael Strawn. We'll betalking with Cathy and Michael
about the severe shortage ofmotorcycle safety instructors
and how that problem may betied to a rising number of
motorcycle crashes. ThinkingTransportation is a production
(26:56):
of the Texas A&M TransportationInstitute, a member of the
Texas A&M University System.
The show is edited and producedby Chris Pourteau. I'm your
writer and host Bernie Fette.
Thanks again for listening.
We'll see you next time .
Hello and welcome to Thinking
Transportation. Conversationsabout how we get ourselves and
the things we need from oneplace to another. I'm Bernie
Fette with the Texas A&MTransportation Institute. Only
a small fraction of cars onAmerican roads today are
powered by electricity, butthat wasn't always the case. In
(00:38):
1900, roughly a third of allvehicles were running on
batteries. Gas-powered cars,however, quickly became the
norm for some of the samereasons that bedevil electric
cars today -- mainly range andaffordability. But with
technology advancements andpublic policy incentives,
(00:59):
alternative fuel vehicles aremaking a comeback. Electrified
mobility holds the promise toradically change how we move
people and products, but onlyafter we find answers to a
number of questions. Powergeneration, battery technology,
affordability, charginginfrastructure, and more. Not
(01:20):
to mention the implications ofshifting the focus of entire
industries. Understanding itall can be overwhelming, but we
have someone here who can helpus understand. Tara Ramani is a
research engineer at TTI andDeputy Director of the Center
for Advancing Research inTransportation Emissions,
(01:40):
Energy and Health. Thank you somuch for being here, Tara .
Tara Ramani (guest) (01:45):
Thanks, Bernie . Great to be here.
Bernie Fette (01:48):
Okay. TTI is a partner agency in the
Electrified MobilityCollaborative, which is a
venture that the Texas A&MUniversity system launched
somewhat recently. So what'sthe Collaborative hoping to
accomplish?
Tara Ramani (02:06):
So, Bernie, as you said, this is something that
the Texas A&M University systemkicked off and we had a launch
event last month and it waspretty successful. And we had a
bunch of people from across theTexas A&M University System --
folks from Kingsville andPrairie View and all the other
(02:26):
institutions across the stateas well. The overall intent was
to establish something like acommunity of practice in this
area, and we went with sort ofthe broad title of electrified
mobility because it's somethingthat's pretty all encompassing
and seems to be everywhere,right? Wherever you go, people
are talking abouttransportation,
electrification, electricvehicles, and it was the intent
(02:50):
of the system leadership to saythat we need to establish some
kind of a community of practicewhere we can share information,
know what the others are doing.
The end goal, of course, is forus to therefore be more
impactful in the research workthat we pursue.
Bernie Fette (03:08):
Right. And as you mentioned, this is a university
system-wide initiative, and weshould remember just for
reference that the A&M Systemis 11 universities and eight
state agencies. So there's apretty broad reach of areas of
expertise beyond TTI. So why isthis work important?
Tara Ramani (03:27):
So as I alluded to before, electrified mobility
seems to be everywhere. And forthose of you who've been
tracking just the news comingout of federal funding programs
and things like that, there isa push towards electrifying our
transportation system that ismoving from the existing
internal combustion enginevehicles to electric vehicles.
(03:49):
The reason for this isprimarily for greenhouse gas
emissions reductions ordecarbonization, right? So to
reduce carbon emissions, theintent is that if you have an
electric vehicle and it ispowered by a clean grid, you
could essentially decarbonizethe transportation sector a lot
(04:09):
easier than if you had internalcombustion vehicles. Keeping in
mind the sort of policyimperatives, right? Where the
federal government, as well asseveral others are investing in
infrastructure to charge thesevehicles as well as
incentivizing the manufactureand purchase of these vehicles.
Mm-hmm.
opportunities that come up. Soobviously for us, we are
(04:30):
thinking of it from a researchas well as a societal impact
perspective, right? So the ideais that we should systematize
what's going on and understandthe landscape because it is
being viewed as one of the nextbig things.
Bernie Fette (04:44):
Right. Let's try to put this in a historical
context if we can. Youmentioned the internal
combustion engine. It was justa little more than a century
ago that that engine started toreplace the horse-drawn option
for mobility. So with that as areference point, how would you
frame the pursuit ofelectrified mobility in
(05:07):
American history? How big isthis?
Tara Ramani (05:10):
That's an interesting question. And in
some ways this is a fundamentalshift in the boundaries of
transportation andinfrastructure. When you think
of the electric component,whereas before the vehicles
carry their fuel source intheir gas tanks, and so the
boundaries of theinfrastructure ended with maybe
the roads that they run on, andof course the fueling
(05:32):
facilities and everything.
However, now it's a coupling ofthese two infrastructure
systems, right? So the electricgrid with the transportation
system , so it becomesso-called like a system of
systems or a coupledinfrastructure, which has its
own challenges. And in thatsense it is different. However,
from a systems perspective,most of the electric vehicles
(05:55):
today are just replacing theirequivalent internal combustion
engine vehicles. So you know, aTesla sedan is replacing some
other kind of sedan that wasrunning on the road. And the
way they operate on the systemis not fundamentally changing
beyond the charging orrefueling element. So while
this is perhaps more alignedwith our existing
(06:19):
transportation system, thecoupling with infrastructure I
think creates a sort ofdifferent set of issues.
Bernie Fette (06:26):
I see. So when we're talking about electrified
mobility, and you talked aboutsedans mm-hmm.
what vehicle groups are wetalking about? Is this just
about electric cars or are wetalking a more broad
perspective than that?
Tara Ramani (06:39):
So I think we wanted to, as part of this
collaborative start broader,initially when we were setting
it up, there was quite a bit ofdiscussion about should it be
an electric vehiclecollaborative versus a mobility
collaborative, right? Becauseeach of them have a slightly
different connotation. And Ithink we went with mobility not
just to encompass all vehicletypes, right? And when it comes
(07:02):
to all vehicle types, primarilyit's the on-road personal
vehicles where mm-hmm .
electrification happening thequickest. However, freight is
also a very big issue. Freightis a sector that is
electrifying, and if you followsome of the recent rules from
the Environmental ProtectionAgency, they have greenhouse
(07:23):
gas emission standards thatthey're proposing, which would
in effect ensure that evenheavy duty vehicles are going
to electrify. So all of that iswithin the bounds of this
initiative, but we also framedit as mobility to add in
exploration of some of thepolicy-type issues.
Bernie Fette (07:42):
Right, so it's all inclusive.
Tara Ramani (07:43):
Correct. Yes. And some of the other things that
were talked about as sort ofniche sectors in electrified
mobility, but we decided we'restill to the extent possible
going to be addressed by ourinitiative are things like
adaptive e-bikes, which areused more for access for
certain sectors of thepopulation. You know, mobility
(08:04):
options that are more prevalentin certain areas like
e-scooters and things likethat. But the idea was to be
able to address all of them, orat least put the information
together on all these sectors.
Bernie Fette (08:17):
And one thing that we haven't mentioned is
vertical takeoff and landingvehicles, what some people
refer to as air taxis, I think.
Tara Ramani (08:24):
Yeah, that's a great point. I think that's
something that is definitelytaking off
intended, but that's definitelybeing addressed because it is a
mobility option that in certaincases is being explored as an
alternative to on-roadvehicles.
Bernie Fette (08:41):
Okay . We have close to 300 million cars and
trucks on the road in thiscountry. Mm-hmm .
right now, just in the UnitedStates. Only a small fraction
of them are running onelectricity. So how would a
shift to electric poweractually happen? Is there a
particular sequence that couldbe simplified for the people
(09:04):
listening to help everyoneunderstand how would this
actually unfold?
Tara Ramani (09:08):
So are you meaning more from a consumer sort of
perspective or more from asystem perspective?
Bernie Fette (09:15):
No, more from a system perspective, because
you've got infrastructureissues, you've got vehicle
issues, you've got powergeneration, Mm-hmm .
Is there a particular sequencethat things have to follow for
such a transformational thinglike this to actually happen ?
Tara Ramani (09:33):
You know, that's a very difficult topic, and I
think it's something thateveryone is grappling with
right now.
Bernie Fette (09:37):
I see.
Tara Ramani (09:38):
The way it's happening in real time is
obviously the vehicles arebeing more available and people
who can are purchasing them,obviously at the penetration
levels we have right now, andthe fact that the average EV
user is, you know, well off,living in their own house where
(09:58):
they can charge at home, it hasnot been as much of a
challenge, so to speak, to getthe people who can afford and
want them right now to buy themand charge them at home without
also noticeably affecting thegrid . However, in order for
these vehicles to be able tooperate more smoothly, to
(10:19):
alleviate range anxiety and allof that, there is the need for
that infrastructure. And thisis an area, obviously we work
with our partners over atelectrical engineering and
others. You know, I'm not agrid person, I'm more of a
transportation person. But myunderstanding is that at higher
levels there are somechallenges for the grid, which
are not insurmountable, butthat need to be addressed and
(10:41):
mm-hmm
under ordinary conditions,right. For everyday use. If you
start to electrify large levelsof the vehicles on the road, as
well as if you needconcentrated demand, say for a
particular fleet that'soperating out of a certain
place, because it appears thatthe needs for those kind of
(11:03):
specialized charging or highlevels of charging might
include um, the expansion ofelectric infrastructure, like
adding a substation orsomething like that to provide
that electricity. And myunderstanding from some
stakeholder workshops that wehave been to is that there is
concern about how quickly thosecan happen, but there is an
acknowledgement that that needsto happen. So the
(11:25):
infrastructure piece is oneaspect, and to some extent the
market and regulations aredriving the increased
availability of these vehiclesand affordability of these
vehicles. So some peopledescribe it as a
chicken-and-egg problem.
Bernie Fette (11:41):
Right. And so the question that I think I was
trying to ask about how doesthis look as it's unfolding --
It may be that if I understandcorrectly, that that's
precisely one of the thingsthat the collaborative is
trying to figure out.
Tara Ramani (11:54):
Definitely, especially when it comes to
these questions of how to matchup a grid powered by renewables
with electric vehicles andtheir charging needs, something
that would be applicableeverywhere. It depends on your
local grid, the source of thefuel for your grid. You know,
whether you're powered by windor solar, et cetera . But
(12:15):
overall it is seen as a shiftthat's happening and that
people are, you know, kind ofaddressing to the extent
possible as they move forward.
Bernie Fette (12:24):
Okay. And I think that you touched very briefly a
little while ago on the factthat there are also public
policy-related considerations.
We can see one example of thatunfolding in the Texas
Legislature just in the lastcouple of days. The legislature
passed a law that wouldestablish a registration fee
(12:48):
level and a renewal fee forelectric vehicles. The reason
being, as you know, thatelectric vehicles don't pay in
the same way for using theroadways because they don't buy
gas and therefore they don'tpay the state gasoline tax or
the state diesel tax. So whatare some of the other policy
considerations, if there's away to briefly touch on those?
Tara Ramani (13:13):
So I think there are many different policy
issues that need to beaddressed. And I think a lot of
the discussion at this point iscentered on equity and
sustainability, right? So ifyou think of this analogy of if
you have the existingtransportation system as it is,
and if you change all thevehicles operating to EVs, is
(13:36):
that gonna solve our problems,right? Or is that gonna be a
sustainable and equitabletransportation system? And the
answer is no, because while youmight have reduced carbon
emissions, at least on roademissions, there are still
other impacts of vehicles aswell as lack of access and
equity considerations thatwould still remain. So in that
(13:57):
context, I think there are alot of gaps in terms of access
to EVs for people as well asmore fundamentally thinking
about whether in thistransition to EVs, we should
also rethink some aspects oftransportation instead of
electrifying certain sectors,maybe we provide other modes of
(14:17):
transportation instead. Sothere are some of these broader
policy issues that needconsideration as well.
Bernie Fette (14:23):
Okay . And you seem to be talking about some
of the challenges that areinherent in a pursuit like
this. Mm-hmm.
is going to be a pretty heavylift. And I hope maybe we could
talk just a little bit aboutsome of those challenges. I
read just in the last couple ofdays in the Washington Post
(14:46):
about a facility in Indonesiathat mines and refines nickel,
which is an important elementin producing electric vehicle
batteries. The processing ofthat ingredient also produces
about 4 million tons of toxicwaste, which is, according to
what I read, enough to fill1,667 Olympic swimming pools.
(15:12):
So when many of us consider howclean electric vehicles are, we
don't necessarily think aboutthe unintended consequences of
their increased presence on theroads. So can you help us piece
that together just a littlebit, if there's a simple way to
do it about how the ElectrifiedMobility Collaborative is
(15:33):
looking into those issues?
Tara Ramani (15:37):
Sure. And I will take a stab at it. And I think
that's a great question. It's aquestion that has come up a lot
when it comes to electricvehicles and the fact that we
are currently just setting thatboundary around to some extent
just what happens when thevehicles run, where they are
zero emissions, right? And tosome extent when they're
charged, where also they arelower carbon than your internal
(16:01):
combustion engine vehicles. ButI think the one thing that has
come up a lot, and even at TTI,we are starting to do, and
we'll be kicking off a projectsoon, is to look at a more
lifecycle perspective, right?
So looking at a lifecycle basedassessment of EVs and taking
(16:21):
into account the entire supplychain and the emissions
associated with different stepsin the process, and not just
emissions, right, butenvironmental impacts that need
to be costed on some kind of acomparable scale so that we can
truly understand what theenvironmental impacts of these
are. And I do think the batteryissue especially has come up a
(16:43):
lot. It's in the news a lot.
There are concerns with globalequity, right? There are places
in the global south that arenot going to necessarily see
the benefits of EVs that areoften the source of these
materials needed for theirmanufacturer. So these are real
problems, but they're beingtackled in a couple of ways. So
firstly, there is a lot ofresearch ongoing. Again, this
(17:05):
is not an area I'm an expertin, but even at the
collaborative and within thesystem, we've seen, you know,
alternatives to lithium,alternatives to some of the
heavy metals that are needed,ways to recycle some of these
materials and use them asopposed to mining them, et
cetera , which couldpotentially allow for lesser
impacts in producing what'sneeded for these vehicles as
(17:27):
well as reducing their impact.
So that's one aspect. And theother aspect also is of course,
comparing these vehicles acrossthe lifecycle with their
internal combustion enginecounterparts. I have seen a few
studies in this area, and Ithink overall, if we consider
the life cycle of what it takesto produce a gasoline vehicle,
(17:49):
as well as what it takes toproduce the fuel versus EVs,
you know, to my understanding,I don't recall if there is, you
know, any concrete answer ofwhat wins, but I don't believe
there is a huge disparity aswell though another issue with
EVs is just concerns about thequantity of materials needed if
(18:10):
we are to shift huge amounts ofour fleet. Mm-hmm .
a lot of ongoing research andit's happening, and I suppose
there will be technologicaladvancements that allow this
without necessarily using thematerials that typically have
been until now.
Bernie Fette (18:27):
Right, right.
You've touched a couple oftimes on the environmental and
emissions mm-hmm.
would be a good time for you totalk just a little about the
environmental and emissionsresearch facility at TT and
what kind of work is being donethere. Can you share what you
know about what's going onthere?
Tara Ramani (18:48):
Sure. I'm, I'm happy to. So the Environmental
and Emissions ResearchFacility, for those of you who
may not be aware, wasoriginally built by TTI as part
of a funded project with theUnited States Environmental
Protection Agency or EPA. So atthe time, we had built that
facility to study the idling ofheavy duty trucks to understand
(19:12):
how different technologies toreduce idling emissions could
have impact in terms of fuel,emissions reduction, the
exposure that truck driversmight have when they are
sitting in these trucks duringtheir rest periods and idling
their engines. So this was ofcourse, nothing to do with
electrification when we firstbuilt this facility. And over
the years we have used thefacility to test emissions of
(19:36):
vehicles under differentoperational conditions. So it's
a climate controlled facility,which allows us to see what
happens to vehicles when it'svery cold or when it's very
hot, does that change theirperformance and their fuel
efficiency? And we had alsodone some testing on battery
electric and plug-in hybridvehicles when they started to
come into the market many yearsago. Mm-hmm .
(19:59):
So we already had an interestin understanding these vehicles
and getting real-world datafrom them. Currently this
facility is being expanded andwe are working closely with
Texas A&M University'sDepartment of Electrical and
Computer Engineering in thisexpansion of this facility. And
(20:19):
what we are actually doing isestablishing sort of a joint
lab. The research facility isnow going to be called the
Clean Transportation ResearchComplex. Within that we have a
grid interaction facilitythat's going to be managed by
electrical engineering, andthen our environmental and
emissions research facility isbeing upgraded to allow for the
(20:42):
testing of heavy duty vehiclesas well. And one of our kickoff
projects is going to be testingof electric buses versus their
diesel counterparts underdifferent temperature
conditions and differentoperational conditions to do
some of this work that I talkedabout previously. You know,
taking a life cycle perspectiveon um, their emissions and
(21:03):
performance. So thispartnership is allowing us to
bring the grid elements closerto the vehicle elements, and we
are also going to have, throughthe engineering college, some
solar fuel sources of renewableenergy and things like that to
really create a test bed thatintegrates the electric and
(21:24):
transportation side.
Bernie Fette (21:26):
And that helps to explain, it seems, why you're
calling this a collaborativebecause there are multiple
partners who each bring theirown distinct contributions to
the research and developmenteffort.
Tara Ramani (21:38):
Absolutely. And the idea really is to treat
this as you know what it is,which is a very
multidisciplinary problem. Andwhat's interesting to me is
that everyone is talking aboutit in their own fields and
grappling about it in their ownways . So my point is there is
such a wide range ofstakeholders in this topic, and
(21:59):
when it comes to research areasas well, you can't just silo it
as a transportation researchproblem or an electrical
research problem. And so that'skind of why this collaborative
was started in the first place,was for us to map out what's
going on, understand who theplayers might be, and make sure
that we are well positioned toaddress some of these grand
(22:20):
challenges in a way that makesthe best use of everyone's
expertise.
Bernie Fette (22:26):
So much for us to learn and understand about this
topic. So many differentlayers. If you had to pick just
one or two takeaways from ourconversation today about what
you'd hope that our listenersmight remember, what would
those things be? Maybe this isyour elevator speech.
Tara Ramani (22:46):
Okay . So I think the big thing is
electrification is here. It'shappening already and it's
going to continue to happen. Itdefinitely is an opportunity
for us to decarbonizetransportation. Electrification
coupled with a renewable powergrid is definitely the way
forward from a macro sort ofbenefits perspective. But there
(23:11):
are definitely things that westill need to address to make
sure that this transition is,you know, first of all
functional and it issustainable and equitable. So
making sure that everyone hasaccess to these vehicles across
all sectors of society. And soI think it's just a fundamental
shift in the boundaries oftransportation. And it's a
(23:33):
true, I think ,multidisciplinary challenge.
And there was a lot of talk aswe started off this
collaborative about framingthis as a wicked problem,
right? And a wicked problem isone that's typically defined as
a problem that has no solution.
And so their point was thisthing of transportation
electrification is so allencompassing with so many
(23:54):
issues that it should be framedas a wicked problem. But then
as we thought about it, wesaid, that's not the right
framing. We need to frame it asa real opportunity for
transformational change. Andit's just a question of making
sure we can do it right.
Bernie Fette (24:10):
And you and your colleagues have plenty of work
to do.
Tara Ramani (24:14):
For sure. So we've done a lot, but a lot of work
remains.
Bernie Fette (24:17):
Last question, what is it that motivates you
to get up and come to workevery day ?
Tara Ramani (24:24):
Okay , so I mean, honestly, I really love my job.
I started out at TTI as agraduate student in 2006. I've
stayed here ever since. I'vereally enjoyed this job. And
what I really like is theexposure I have working on this
broad area of sustainabletransportation and studying
more in-depth liketransportation emissions and
(24:46):
things like that is, itinvolves knowing about so many
things. And this has expandedto, you know, as we talk about
electrification, but evenbefore that, transportation is
so integrated with everythingwe do. It is a part of our
lives. And in some ways it'snice to see the technical
aspects of real-world thingsand study them and things that
(25:08):
I can talk about, you know,with my family or get excited
about when I talk aboutdifferent vehicle types or
their emissions or drive cyclesand things like that. So for
me, it's just seeing thereal-world impacts of what I do
and just a great workenvironment. And I get to work
with some really smart andwonderful people, and I'm
learning every day . I wouldsay that's what I really love
(25:29):
about my job.
Bernie Fette (25:31):
Tara Ramani , research engineer at TTI and
deputy director of the Centerfor Advancing Research in
Transportation Emissions,Energy and Health. Thank you
for your time, Tara. Thank youfor helping us understand this
topic a bit more clearly. We doappreciate it.
Tara Ramani (25:51):
Thanks, Bernie.
Great to be here.
Bernie Fette (25:54):
The internal combustion engine radically
changed how people got aroundmore than a century ago. With
ongoing improvements inperformance and ample reserves
of cheap gasoline, Henry Ford'sModel T and its many successors
ruled American roadways fordecades. More recently,
(26:14):
technology advancements andconsumer interests have opened
the door to a new beginning forelectrified mobility and the
promise that it once enjoyed.
Thanks for listening. Pleasetake just a minute to give us a
review, subscribe and sharethis episode, and please join
(26:35):
us again next time for aconversation with Cathy Brooks
and Michael Strawn. We'll betalking with Cathy and Michael
about the severe shortage ofmotorcycle safety instructors
and how that problem may betied to a rising number of
motorcycle crashes. ThinkingTransportation is a production
(26:56):
of the Texas A&M TransportationInstitute, a member of the
Texas A&M University System.
The show is edited and producedby Chris Pourteau. I'm your
writer and host Bernie Fette.
Thanks again for listening.
We'll see you next time .
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