July 6, 2023 • 30 mins
Two years have passed since America’s last road and bridge report card, and we’ll wait another two years for the next one. An unofficial mid-term grade suggests that conditions are improving.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bernie Fette (host) (00:14):
Hello and welcome to Thinking
Transportation. Conversationsabout how we get ourselves and
the things we need from oneplace to another. I'm Bernie
Fette with the Texas A&MTransportation Institute. Every
four years, the AmericanSociety of Civil Engineers
produces a report card on thestatus of our nation's
(00:35):
infrastructure. Their lastreport card was issued in 2021
and we can expect the next onein 2025, but a lot can happen
in four years. So we've inviteda couple of experts today in
hopes of taking a closer lookat things, in the absence of an
official reporting period. Wemight think of it as a time for
(00:59):
a mid-term grade. CharlesGurganus is the pavement
management program manager atTTI and the deputy director of
the Center for InfrastructureRenewal. Nasir Gharaibeh is a
professor of Civil andEnvironmental Engineering at
Texas A&M University. Charlesand Nasir, thank you both for
(01:19):
sharing your time with us.
Charles Gurganus (guest (01:22):
Thanks for the invitation, Bernie.
Nasir Gharaibeh (guest) (01:23):
Thank you.
Bernie Fette (01:24):
I believe that most of our listeners are at
least somewhat familiar withthe infrastructure report card
that's prepared every fouryears by the American Society
of Civil Engineers. It's beentwo years since America got its
last report card, so it will betwo more before we see the next
(01:44):
one. I was hoping that we couldget a midterm check-in of sorts
from both of you. And on asomewhat related note, I
noticed in the email exchangeto get this all set up that
each of you was congratulatingthe other person on the
scholastic success of one ofyour children. So maybe this
(02:05):
resonates a little bit for youin that regard. Just because of
the timing at the end of aschool year. In 2021, the
nation's infrastructure scoreda C. That's an average of all
of the various categories asyou know, and it's a slight
improvement over the score fromfour years prior to that, which
(02:26):
was a D-plus. So in the absenceof an official report card from
the ASCE, because again, we'llwait another two years for
that, I would like to ask youboth to assign an unofficial
mid-term grade for us now in2023. Let's start with the
overall grade and your thoughtson why you gave that score and
then maybe we can get into justa bit more detail about the
(02:49):
specific transportationinfrastructure elements.
Charles, I'll invite you to gofirst if you would.
Charles Gurganus (02:55):
Sure. So I think we're probably in that C
to C-minus range overall, justkinda shooting from the hip
there. And if you look at theway ASCE defines what a C score
is, what they really say isthat the network is in fair to
good condition and is showingsigns of deterioration. And I
think that's a fair statementfor most of the infrastructure,
(03:18):
kind of hard sidetransportation related
infrastructure that weencounter on a daily basis. We
drive across some things and wesay, Hey, this could use an
upgrade. We drive across otherthings and we say, Hey, this is
really nice. And so with theway, you know, ASCE kinda rates
it out. I think we settle intothat maybe C, C-minus and maybe
a little bit closer to theC-minus side just because of
(03:40):
the age of a lot of ourelements out there and the
demand that those elements areexperiencing.
Bernie Fette (03:47):
Nasir?
Nasir Gharaibeh (03:48):
Yeah, I agree with Charles. I think with the
big investment ininfrastructure, you know, we
are talking about putting morethan 500 billion into
infrastructure between 2022 and2026. That should have some
effect, maybe a little bit onthe higher end of what Charles
(04:11):
estimated, I would say we wouldbe in the C range and maybe
will start seeing someimprovement.
Bernie Fette (04:21):
So if we were talking about a student here,
once again, you'd be cautiouslyoptimistic about the student's
potential?
Nasir Gharaibeh (04:28):
Probably, yeah.
Bernie Fette (04:29):
Okay. Let's dig just a little deeper on the
categories that are morespecific to surface
transportation. Starting withbridges. I think, Nasir, this
is one of your specialty areas,correct?
Nasir Gharaibeh (04:40):
My specialty is in infrastructure management
as a whole. And bridges ofcourse is a big component of
that.
Bernie Fette (04:47):
So America earned a C two years ago, that's
actually a drop from a C-plusin 2017. What are your thoughts
there?
Nasir Gharaibeh (04:57):
I think we should see some improvement.
I'm gonna stay a little bitalso cautiously optimistic on
bridges. We'll see a little bitof improvement, maybe a C or
C-plus.
Bernie Fette (05:11):
Charles, do you have anything to add?
Charles Gurganus (05:14):
I think Dr.
Gharaibeh's, right, especiallyon our on-system network. So,
bridges that are owned by TexasDepartment of Transportation,
TxDOT, or by other departmentsof transportation, DOTs across
the country. There's been lotsof effort in upgrading those
on-system bridges, gettingextra width , building new ones
(05:34):
where needed and where theycan. There are still a lot of
challenges say at the countylevel across the country. Those
smaller agencies own a lot ofassets as well and their
funding mechanisms aredifferent than DOTs and I think
that presents a lot ofchallenges. Sometimes they're
(05:54):
juggling a lot of differentexpenses. You know, if it's a
city, they might be determininghow many new fire trucks we buy
versus what we do withupgrading some of our bridges.
And so that's just a little bitof a challenge with owning
infrastructure across thecountry. The DOTs are trending
in the right direction and havebeen I think on bridges for a
long time. Some of our morelocal agencies maybe have other
(06:18):
fiscal things going on thatmake that a little bit more
challenging on their end.
Bernie Fette (06:24):
Is that simply because their funding sources
are not as specificallydedicated as the DOT funding
sources are?
Charles Gurganus (06:31):
I think that's part of it. I think
cities and city leadership,they answer directly to their
constituents and so they have apulse on what their locals need
and desire. And so as long asthere's not necessarily a
safety concern associated witha piece of infrastructure, they
may be putting their fundssomewhere else. But Dr.
Gharaibeh might have a littlebit better take on that as
(06:52):
well.
Nasir Gharaibeh (06:53):
Charles is right about that. Their state's
process is more focused, theirmission is more specific to
infrastructure. The dynamics ofdecision making at the local
level is a bit different thanthe dynamics of decision making
at the state level.
Bernie Fette (07:10):
Let's talk about roads. The roads report card
got a D two years ago for theUnited States road condition,
which was unchanged from fouryears prior. What are your
thoughts on that component ofour infrastructure?
Nasir Gharaibeh (07:28):
I think it's a good idea to keep kinda
thinking of it in terms ofstate level and local level. At
the state level, I think youwill see improvement because of
the big investments that arebeing made in this system. For
example, as part of the newlaw, bridges are receiving the
(07:50):
largest investment since theconstruction of the Interstate
system. The Interstate systemwas constructed basically in
the fifties, sixties, earlyseventies. And since that time
now bridges are gonna get a bigamount of money to replace and
repair and so forth. That hasto make a difference. And
(08:12):
similar investments are beingmade in pavements as well. So
that will show in the conditionof roads.
Charles Gurganus (08:19):
I think Dr.
Gharaibeh's right on that. Weare seeing the on-system
network, we usually use thattype of phrase to describe what
our DOTs own, what'sinteresting with what the
public will feel and the usersof our system, because of the
money that's being pushed outthere now, they will see and
experience more construction.
(08:39):
So it will be interesting tosee what ASCE does in a couple
of years when they issue thisnew report card and maybe
people feel like infrastructurehas more construction on it,
which people typically don'tlike because then that usually
leads to inconvenience. Soit'll be interesting to see if
we see a dip that then leads tosomething that hopefully is
(09:00):
significant improvement say sixyears from now. I will say that
I do think that there's been alot of development in
engineering in the design onour pavements as we continue to
deploy these dollars intoindustry. And , and what I mean
by that is seeing lots ofadvancements in equipment and
(09:20):
in materials and in puttingthose things together, a lot of
partnerships between privatesector and public sector to
where the finished productthat's going to come out of
this is going to be better thanit's ever been before . So I'm
optimistic that when this allshakes out, we're going to see
a significant bump in thatnumber specifically on
pavements.
Bernie Fette (09:40):
You bring up an interesting point there,
Charles, whenever you talkabout what the public will
notice, maybe it would behelpful for all of our
listeners. I know I'm curiousabout this particular question
about how the ASCE actuallycomes about. Its scoring how
they come about their grades.
Do they consider things likeyou were mentioning, like what
(10:02):
people see. Do they in any wayconsider public opinion or is
it all very strictly condition-based and they don't get into
any other things or any otheranticipated funding levels or
anything like that?
Nasir Gharaibeh (10:17):
ASCE ratings, they are useful to kinda convey
the picture to the public,right ? And the grading system,
everybody knows what thatmeans, you know, A, B , C and
so forth. But we have toremember that these ratings are
not really precise and they arenot based on hard data. A lot
(10:38):
of it is what's called expertopinion. It relies a lot on
publicly available data, but itis not an exact science. It's a
mixture of art and science andjudgment.
Bernie Fette (10:50):
It's designed to keep infrastructure at the
front of people's thinking towhatever extent possible.
Nasir Gharaibeh (10:56):
Correct.
Bernie Fette (10:57):
Okay . Rail earned a B two years ago, which
was also unchanged from 2017.
And I know that the two of youdo not consider yourselves to
be rail experts, but you'renonetheless familiar. So what
thoughts would you have on therail score? Because of all of
the categories that we look atin the ASCE report card, rail
(11:19):
is the element that gets thehighest grade. What do you
think that that says about thecondition of that mode, the
investment level, theimportance to the industry?
What are your thoughts on rail?
Nasir Gharaibeh (11:31):
I think rail is a little bit different than
the rest of them. One is a lotof it is privately owned.
Companies own the railwaysystem. The other thing is it's
somewhat similar to bridges inthe safety factor issues, you
know, so safety plays a bigrole in the evaluation or the
grading of the railinfrastructure. So as long as
(11:55):
we don't have accidents --there were high profile
accidents; one comes to mind inOhio, I believe. So those get
attention in the news media andpeople hear about them. So that
kind of brings the railcondition down. Accidents
happen, but they are rarecompared to roadway accidents.
Bernie Fette (12:14):
Right. And the Association of American
Railroads, according to whatthey've said in the media,
train accidents are down morethan 40 percent since 2000.
Including those that are causedby track problems. The
infrastructure part of this,you mentioned what's probably a
very important distinction inthat the railroads are
(12:35):
privately owned, rail gets thehighest infrastructure score
from the ASCE. Is there aconnection there? Is that the
reason or perhaps the mainreason why it's getting the
highest grade? Is it because ofits funding model?
Nasir Gharaibeh (12:50):
It might, but I go back to the tight
tolerance for safety issues inrail. The margin of error in
rail is really tight. If atrack is deficient, you really
have to fix it right awaybecause the safety consequences
will show up almost right away.
(13:12):
Whereas if you have a road thathas potholes and cracks and
things like that, the safetyconcerns are not as urgent as
they are in rail. So maybe thecombination of these two
factors, the importance ofsafety as well as the ownership
model, maybe these two play arole.
Bernie Fette (13:34):
And the rail companies know that to have a
successful and profitablecompany, they need to have a
safe operation.
Nasir Gharaibeh (13:40):
Yeah.
Bernie Fette (13:40):
I see you nodding Charles. Any further thoughts
on the rail piece of this?
Charles Gurganus (13:46):
No, I mean I think Dr. Gharaibeh covered
most of it there. The privateownership model connected with
the safety aspect of it,combined with the fact that
it's a more controlled userenvironment. And what I mean by
that is trains are scheduled,the person operating the train
(14:07):
is employed by the privatecompany. There's a limited
number of them, the route iswell-defined, the number of
cars is well-defined, whatthey're hauling is regulated
and well-defined. Contrast thatwith a roadway where you have
thousands of users all whoessentially work for
themselves, right? I mean it'sthe individual driving on the
roadway to get to whateverdestination it is they want.
(14:30):
Using the system in multiplepieces of the system that are
maybe a little bit fracturedand disjointed. It's not like a
linear rail where it's very,very fixed. Right? So there's
all this complexity that getsadded into the highway network.
There's that aspect that is, Iwould say somewhat simplifies
the rail system and then theprivate business model drives
(14:52):
towards safety. One because themagnitude of a safety issue on
the rail. But also we can'ttake out the fact that if you
have a safety issue and yourrail goes outta commission,
that impacts the bottom line.
Bernie Fette (15:02):
Right. And the profit margins in that industry
are razor thin. So that speaksto it a bit also it would seem.
Charles Gurganus (15:10):
Yeah , so our roadway systems are essentially
publicly owned either by DOT,county, or city compared to the
private model and the railsystem. So then if you think
about how you might want to tryto make more of an
apples-to-apples comparisonthere, you might take a look at
like some of our tolledfacilities, if you think about
Texas taking a look at sayNorth Texas Toll Authority,
(15:30):
HCTRA is the Harris Countytolling entity. They have a
privately owned system or whatis more privately owned;
functions a little bit morelike a rail system, a little
bit more performance-basedspecifications. So that
comparison might be worth alook at and see if those models
are a little bit more similarthan just say the DOT model.
Bernie Fette (15:49):
We've got just one more on what I would guess
is the surface transportationmodes and that's transit, which
got a D minus two years ago.
Once again unchanged from 2017.
One thing that kind of standsout here it seems is that
transit gets the lowest gradeof all the transportation modes
in the ASCE report card. Whatare your thoughts there?
Nasir Gharaibeh (16:13):
I'll go first, maybe Charles? You know, again,
transit is, is kind of has itsown unique issues. First,
transit is primarily an urbaninfrastructure. You know, we
don't see it much in ruralareas. It depends a lot on
ridership and funding for itand so forth is different
(16:36):
mechanisms than say the hardinfrastructure like roads and
bridges and airports and soforth. Plus at that, the issue
of public transportation in theU. S. Is not as high priority
as in other industrialcountries. For example, compare
(16:57):
public transportation in theU.S. to public transportation
in Japan, completely differentmodel in the U.S We like to
ride our cars and move aroundand so forth. So transit gets
less attention maybe than theother types of infrastructure.
Charles Gurganus (17:16):
Yeah, I think that's a fair summary. I think
a lot of times transit becomespolitical in terms of how are
we going to fund it?And some ofthat has to do with in the
United States it often needs tobe subsidized because the
ridership is not there tooffset the capital cost
associated with it. We are adriver-friendly country. We
(17:37):
have been so since theInterstate started to connect
people coast to coast 50 and 60years ago. So I think transit's
always kind of battling for itspiece of the pie. Like our
roadway systems, transit's acomplex piece of
infrastructure. You havestations, you have rail, you
have car, you , you've gotrolling stock you . And so it's
a very complex animal to try tofinance and keep in good
(18:01):
working order. That's achallenge for our transit
operators across the country.
Bernie Fette (18:05):
We have one more category that I guess
technically is a surfacetransportation mode. Our
seaports which earned a B-minustwo years ago, which was an
improvement over the C-plus in2017. Ports have their own
distinctions from the othermodes that we've talked about.
(18:26):
Any thoughts on our portcondition?
Charles Gurganus (18:29):
Give it a shot, Dr. Gharaibeh.
Nasir Gharaibeh (18:31):
. Yeah,
I think it kind of goes with
transit and maybe to someextent rail. Those types of
infrastructure are really, theyhave their unique issues that a
lot of times go beyond thephysical condition of the
infrastructure. You know, portcapacity and congestion and you
(18:52):
know, issues that the one thatwe experienced after Covid , if
you recall, we have, you know,supply chain issues and ports
were congested. That willprobably affect the grade
because those grades , theycombine a lot of factors. So
the functional aspects of thetype of infrastructure plays a
(19:14):
role.
Charles Gurganus (19:16):
I would just add to that, that ports are a
little bit interesting as wellbecause they're the origin for
a lot of goods that end up onother modes of transportation.
And so if your ports wereoperating at say an A-plus,
that would, I would think implya drastic amount of throughput.
And if that's the case, we thenhave to ask ourselves can our
(19:37):
rail system and our roadwaysystem handle the throughput of
goods or would it just lead tothose scores going down as it
caught up? And so this is whereinfrastructure becomes fun
because these things start toconnect and these grades start
to overlap each other as youstart to think about the
intersection of all of thesedifferent infrastructure
(19:59):
components. Yeah,
Nasir Gharaibeh (20:00):
Yeah, that's a good point that these things
are really interconnected andinterdependent.
Bernie Fette (20:05):
So they're graded separately in the report card,
but they do not functionentirely independently.
Nasir Gharaibeh (20:11):
Yeah.
Bernie Fette (20:11):
There's a good bit of overlap and one moving
part is potentially going toaffect others.
Nasir Gharaibeh (20:19):
Yep .
Bernie Fette (20:21):
Let's move for just a few minutes if we can
from talking about theconditions and the problems or
the challenges you might sayand talk about the what should
be done, the solution side ofthis a little bit, starting
with the InfrastructureInvestment and Jobs Act that
you mentioned a little whileago , Nasir. What is that
(20:43):
legislation all about and whatcan we expect to happen from it
?
Nasir Gharaibeh (20:47):
That legislation is really, it's a
big investment ininfrastructure and it's a broad
investment. There arecomponents in it that are
related to roads and bridges,water transit, workforce
development, resilience toclimate change issues. So there
(21:10):
are many, many programs in itthat will affect somehow the
condition of our infrastructureas we move forward. You know,
it started from 2022, so it's afive-year law if you will, from
2022 to 2026, about 550 billionare invested in these programs,
(21:34):
which cover a lot of aspects ofinfrastructure. We should start
seeing some effect of it interms of improvement, you know,
as we move forward into thefuture.
Charles Gurganus (21:45):
So I guess I'll jump in on a couple of
things with the IIJA, just foodfor thought for our listeners
cuz Dr. Gharaibeh, I think dida great job of describing and
summarizing the funding levelsand the scale of it. I would
say that for the end user, youneed to be a little bit
patient. So infrastructureprojects are not, it's not
(22:06):
flipping a light switch.
They're not developed andturned on in a day or even a
year. They do take time todevelop. That's both on the
study side of things all theway through the design and
through the construction sideof it. We also have some
aspects right now where some ofthe funding that's out there is
helping offset the cost ofinflation as the construction
(22:27):
price index has gone upsignificantly. So there's gonna
be a lot of moving parts asthese dollars move through
different infrastructuresectors to produce projects.
Building and being part ofinfrastructure is a marathon,
it's not a sprint. And so everytime money gets out there, just
remember that, that one day youwill wake up and your problem
(22:49):
hopefully will be solved, butthat won't be tomorrow. It'll
be in the future sometime.
Bernie Fette (22:54):
And an important point that you raise, Charles,
is that the highway cost indexis rising pretty quickly. I
think that inflation,consumer-focused inflation has
been in the news a lot lately,but what a lot of our listeners
may not know is that inflationfor highway materials and road
and bridge constructionmaterials, that rate of
inflation is much higher andhas risen faster than the rate
(23:18):
of inflation for bread , milk,automobiles and other things
that people are more familiarwith, right?
Charles Gurganus (23:24):
Yeah.
Bernie Fette (23:24):
And you mentioned something about pavement
design, which makes me wonderwhat thoughts both of you have
about where technology fits into addressing the
infrastructure challenge.
Nasir Gharaibeh (23:38):
Technology is affecting the way we design
things, the way that we repairthings, the way that we monitor
the condition ofinfrastructure. It's affecting,
you know, all aspects ofinfrastructure development from
design to construction tomaintenance and monitoring.
(23:59):
Give you some examples. Youknow, there are all kinds of
sensors that are available towatch and monitor the condition
of bridges and pavements, getmore accurate data quickly to
the hands of the decisionmakers to make decisions on
when to repair a piece ofinfrastructure, how to repair
(24:21):
it. On the software side, thereare technologies that help with
decision making . How do Iprioritize my projects? You
know, what factors should Iinclude? Where does this money
go? How does it get invested?
There is software to help withthat material side. People are
thinking about producingmaterial that lasts longer,
(24:45):
that drains water faster in amore effective way. So
technology helps in allaspects.
Charles Gurganus (24:55):
Yeah, and to carry that into, say the
construction side and whatwe're seeing the private sector
work on. So automated vehiclesare in the news for automated
driving and things like that,but the , um, heavy equipment
manufacturers are in thatbusiness as well. What heavy
equipment can be automated orwhat things can be put on it to
(25:18):
improve the finished quality?
So is it smoother, is it morecompacted or, or whatever it
might be. So you have the majorheavy equipment operators
investing a lot into thistechnology. Those things are
great oftentimes from a safetyperspective because maybe
sometimes we can pull a personout of a potentially unsafe
(25:38):
environment, replace it with apiece of equipment. Of course
that comes with a wholeworkforce development
component. How do we helptransition the workforce as
technology continues to evolveso fast? Because it just seems
like it's moving reallyquickly.
Bernie Fette (25:54):
This is really such a huge topic and so
difficult to tackle iteffectively in a discussion
that lasts less than an hour.
But if there was just one thingthat you hoped our listeners
would take away from what we'vetalked about today, what would
that one thing be?
Nasir Gharaibeh (26:16):
I would go with the thought that Charles
brought up, which is patience .
Pieces of infrastructure aredesigned to last a long time.
Bridges last 50, a hundredyears. It takes a long time to
design them. It takes a longtime to build them and they
stay in service for a longtime. So patience is critical
(26:39):
from the public standpoint.
Change does not happen quicklywhen we deal with these big
structures.
Charles Gurganus (26:47):
So what I would maybe say is complexity,
dealing with infrastructure isa complex topic and that often
means how we finance itssolutions can be a little bit
complex as well. IIJA ispushing a lot of money out
there. Texas has done a lot ofgood things with various
proposition bonds over theyears to try to invest in
(27:10):
infrastructure. But there's alot of municipalities, a lot of
counties that own a lot ofinfrastructure elements,
constituencies. The people thatuse these systems need to think
about how we finance thesesolutions. So our scores go up.
So what do you want your systemto look like? And then listen
to in your local areas and inyour states, different
(27:33):
opportunities to finance themand then decide if it's right
for your community. Because Ithink we're going to have to
invest in our infrastructure.
But I think sometimes that'sdone really well at the local
level because of the differentcomplexities of it. Meeting the
needs of a local constituency Ithink is, is important to
consider when we talk aboutinfrastructure.
Bernie Fette (27:55):
Last question.
What is it that makes you wantto get up and come to work
every day ?
Charles Gurganus (28:03):
To solve our infrastructure problems
requires a lot of really smartpeople. And I've really enjoyed
over the last say 10 years,seeing a transition in my
career of being around a lot ofgifted people that have a lot
of knowledge that I, I didn'teven know it existed in some
cases, and I've learned so muchfrom them. And then be able to
input the civil engineeringtechnical aspect to it makes
(28:25):
the job fun.
Bernie Fette (28:27):
Nasir?
Nasir Gharaibeh (28:28):
Agree. We are fortunate in civil engineering
that we get to do the, theengineering, technical
engineering part. That's stillkind of the heart of what we
do, but because what we do, itaffects people's lives.
Transportation, you know, it'spart of everyday life for many
people. We get to make thatkinda extension, that kind of
(28:50):
jump beyond the technical workand go into how does that
affect people, right? And thatrequires interacting with
peoples from all kinds ofdisciplines.
Bernie Fette (29:04):
Dr. Charles Gurganus is the pavement
management program manager atTTI and the deputy director of
the Center for InfrastructureRenewal. Dr. Nasir Gharaibeh is
a professor of civil andenvironmental engineering at
Texas A&M University. Charlesand Nasir, thank you both so
(29:24):
much for sharing your time andyour insight with us today.
Nasir Gharaibeh (29:27):
Thank you.
Charles Gurganus (29:28):
Thank you.
Bernie Fette (29:31):
It's easy to take our transportation
infrastructure for granted,whether traveling across town
or across the country. Wesimply go about our journeys,
rarely appreciating how trulyreliable our mobility network
is. We could all use a reminderof that now and then, because
(29:52):
roads and bridges in Americawere built to last, but they
were not built to last forever.
Thanks for listening. Pleasetake just a minute to give us a
review, subscribe and sharethis episode, and please join
us again next time for aconversation with Jeff Shelton
. We can learn more then abouthow research is using
(30:14):
sophisticated traffic models tohelp cities prepare for natural
disasters and other extremeevents. Thinking Transportation
is a production of the TexasA&M Transportation Institute, a
member of the Texas A&MUniversity system. The show is
edited and produced by ChrisPourteau. I'm your writer and
(30:36):
host, Bernie Fette. Thanksagain for listening. We'll see
you next time.
Hello and welcome to Thinking
Transportation. Conversationsabout how we get ourselves and
the things we need from oneplace to another. I'm Bernie
Fette with the Texas A&MTransportation Institute. Every
four years, the AmericanSociety of Civil Engineers
produces a report card on thestatus of our nation's
(00:35):
infrastructure. Their lastreport card was issued in 2021
and we can expect the next onein 2025, but a lot can happen
in four years. So we've inviteda couple of experts today in
hopes of taking a closer lookat things, in the absence of an
official reporting period. Wemight think of it as a time for
(00:59):
a mid-term grade. CharlesGurganus is the pavement
management program manager atTTI and the deputy director of
the Center for InfrastructureRenewal. Nasir Gharaibeh is a
professor of Civil andEnvironmental Engineering at
Texas A&M University. Charlesand Nasir, thank you both for
(01:19):
sharing your time with us.
Charles Gurganus (guest (01:22):
Thanks for the invitation, Bernie.
Nasir Gharaibeh (guest) (01:23):
Thank you.
Bernie Fette (01:24):
I believe that most of our listeners are at
least somewhat familiar withthe infrastructure report card
that's prepared every fouryears by the American Society
of Civil Engineers. It's beentwo years since America got its
last report card, so it will betwo more before we see the next
(01:44):
one. I was hoping that we couldget a midterm check-in of sorts
from both of you. And on asomewhat related note, I
noticed in the email exchangeto get this all set up that
each of you was congratulatingthe other person on the
scholastic success of one ofyour children. So maybe this
(02:05):
resonates a little bit for youin that regard. Just because of
the timing at the end of aschool year. In 2021, the
nation's infrastructure scoreda C. That's an average of all
of the various categories asyou know, and it's a slight
improvement over the score fromfour years prior to that, which
(02:26):
was a D-plus. So in the absenceof an official report card from
the ASCE, because again, we'llwait another two years for
that, I would like to ask youboth to assign an unofficial
mid-term grade for us now in2023. Let's start with the
overall grade and your thoughtson why you gave that score and
then maybe we can get into justa bit more detail about the
(02:49):
specific transportationinfrastructure elements.
Charles, I'll invite you to gofirst if you would.
Charles Gurganus (02:55):
Sure. So I think we're probably in that C
to C-minus range overall, justkinda shooting from the hip
there. And if you look at theway ASCE defines what a C score
is, what they really say isthat the network is in fair to
good condition and is showingsigns of deterioration. And I
think that's a fair statementfor most of the infrastructure,
(03:18):
kind of hard sidetransportation related
infrastructure that weencounter on a daily basis. We
drive across some things and wesay, Hey, this could use an
upgrade. We drive across otherthings and we say, Hey, this is
really nice. And so with theway, you know, ASCE kinda rates
it out. I think we settle intothat maybe C, C-minus and maybe
a little bit closer to theC-minus side just because of
(03:40):
the age of a lot of ourelements out there and the
demand that those elements areexperiencing.
Bernie Fette (03:47):
Nasir?
Nasir Gharaibeh (03:48):
Yeah, I agree with Charles. I think with the
big investment ininfrastructure, you know, we
are talking about putting morethan 500 billion into
infrastructure between 2022 and2026. That should have some
effect, maybe a little bit onthe higher end of what Charles
(04:11):
estimated, I would say we wouldbe in the C range and maybe
will start seeing someimprovement.
Bernie Fette (04:21):
So if we were talking about a student here,
once again, you'd be cautiouslyoptimistic about the student's
potential?
Nasir Gharaibeh (04:28):
Probably, yeah.
Bernie Fette (04:29):
Okay. Let's dig just a little deeper on the
categories that are morespecific to surface
transportation. Starting withbridges. I think, Nasir, this
is one of your specialty areas,correct?
Nasir Gharaibeh (04:40):
My specialty is in infrastructure management
as a whole. And bridges ofcourse is a big component of
that.
Bernie Fette (04:47):
So America earned a C two years ago, that's
actually a drop from a C-plusin 2017. What are your thoughts
there?
Nasir Gharaibeh (04:57):
I think we should see some improvement.
I'm gonna stay a little bitalso cautiously optimistic on
bridges. We'll see a little bitof improvement, maybe a C or
C-plus.
Bernie Fette (05:11):
Charles, do you have anything to add?
Charles Gurganus (05:14):
I think Dr.
Gharaibeh's, right, especiallyon our on-system network. So,
bridges that are owned by TexasDepartment of Transportation,
TxDOT, or by other departmentsof transportation, DOTs across
the country. There's been lotsof effort in upgrading those
on-system bridges, gettingextra width , building new ones
(05:34):
where needed and where theycan. There are still a lot of
challenges say at the countylevel across the country. Those
smaller agencies own a lot ofassets as well and their
funding mechanisms aredifferent than DOTs and I think
that presents a lot ofchallenges. Sometimes they're
(05:54):
juggling a lot of differentexpenses. You know, if it's a
city, they might be determininghow many new fire trucks we buy
versus what we do withupgrading some of our bridges.
And so that's just a little bitof a challenge with owning
infrastructure across thecountry. The DOTs are trending
in the right direction and havebeen I think on bridges for a
long time. Some of our morelocal agencies maybe have other
(06:18):
fiscal things going on thatmake that a little bit more
challenging on their end.
Bernie Fette (06:24):
Is that simply because their funding sources
are not as specificallydedicated as the DOT funding
sources are?
Charles Gurganus (06:31):
I think that's part of it. I think
cities and city leadership,they answer directly to their
constituents and so they have apulse on what their locals need
and desire. And so as long asthere's not necessarily a
safety concern associated witha piece of infrastructure, they
may be putting their fundssomewhere else. But Dr.
Gharaibeh might have a littlebit better take on that as
(06:52):
well.
Nasir Gharaibeh (06:53):
Charles is right about that. Their state's
process is more focused, theirmission is more specific to
infrastructure. The dynamics ofdecision making at the local
level is a bit different thanthe dynamics of decision making
at the state level.
Bernie Fette (07:10):
Let's talk about roads. The roads report card
got a D two years ago for theUnited States road condition,
which was unchanged from fouryears prior. What are your
thoughts on that component ofour infrastructure?
Nasir Gharaibeh (07:28):
I think it's a good idea to keep kinda
thinking of it in terms ofstate level and local level. At
the state level, I think youwill see improvement because of
the big investments that arebeing made in this system. For
example, as part of the newlaw, bridges are receiving the
(07:50):
largest investment since theconstruction of the Interstate
system. The Interstate systemwas constructed basically in
the fifties, sixties, earlyseventies. And since that time
now bridges are gonna get a bigamount of money to replace and
repair and so forth. That hasto make a difference. And
(08:12):
similar investments are beingmade in pavements as well. So
that will show in the conditionof roads.
Charles Gurganus (08:19):
I think Dr.
Gharaibeh's right on that. Weare seeing the on-system
network, we usually use thattype of phrase to describe what
our DOTs own, what'sinteresting with what the
public will feel and the usersof our system, because of the
money that's being pushed outthere now, they will see and
experience more construction.
(08:39):
So it will be interesting tosee what ASCE does in a couple
of years when they issue thisnew report card and maybe
people feel like infrastructurehas more construction on it,
which people typically don'tlike because then that usually
leads to inconvenience. Soit'll be interesting to see if
we see a dip that then leads tosomething that hopefully is
(09:00):
significant improvement say sixyears from now. I will say that
I do think that there's been alot of development in
engineering in the design onour pavements as we continue to
deploy these dollars intoindustry. And , and what I mean
by that is seeing lots ofadvancements in equipment and
(09:20):
in materials and in puttingthose things together, a lot of
partnerships between privatesector and public sector to
where the finished productthat's going to come out of
this is going to be better thanit's ever been before . So I'm
optimistic that when this allshakes out, we're going to see
a significant bump in thatnumber specifically on
pavements.
Bernie Fette (09:40):
You bring up an interesting point there,
Charles, whenever you talkabout what the public will
notice, maybe it would behelpful for all of our
listeners. I know I'm curiousabout this particular question
about how the ASCE actuallycomes about. Its scoring how
they come about their grades.
Do they consider things likeyou were mentioning, like what
(10:02):
people see. Do they in any wayconsider public opinion or is
it all very strictly condition-based and they don't get into
any other things or any otheranticipated funding levels or
anything like that?
Nasir Gharaibeh (10:17):
ASCE ratings, they are useful to kinda convey
the picture to the public,right ? And the grading system,
everybody knows what thatmeans, you know, A, B , C and
so forth. But we have toremember that these ratings are
not really precise and they arenot based on hard data. A lot
(10:38):
of it is what's called expertopinion. It relies a lot on
publicly available data, but itis not an exact science. It's a
mixture of art and science andjudgment.
Bernie Fette (10:50):
It's designed to keep infrastructure at the
front of people's thinking towhatever extent possible.
Nasir Gharaibeh (10:56):
Correct.
Bernie Fette (10:57):
Okay . Rail earned a B two years ago, which
was also unchanged from 2017.
And I know that the two of youdo not consider yourselves to
be rail experts, but you'renonetheless familiar. So what
thoughts would you have on therail score? Because of all of
the categories that we look atin the ASCE report card, rail
(11:19):
is the element that gets thehighest grade. What do you
think that that says about thecondition of that mode, the
investment level, theimportance to the industry?
What are your thoughts on rail?
Nasir Gharaibeh (11:31):
I think rail is a little bit different than
the rest of them. One is a lotof it is privately owned.
Companies own the railwaysystem. The other thing is it's
somewhat similar to bridges inthe safety factor issues, you
know, so safety plays a bigrole in the evaluation or the
grading of the railinfrastructure. So as long as
(11:55):
we don't have accidents --there were high profile
accidents; one comes to mind inOhio, I believe. So those get
attention in the news media andpeople hear about them. So that
kind of brings the railcondition down. Accidents
happen, but they are rarecompared to roadway accidents.
Bernie Fette (12:14):
Right. And the Association of American
Railroads, according to whatthey've said in the media,
train accidents are down morethan 40 percent since 2000.
Including those that are causedby track problems. The
infrastructure part of this,you mentioned what's probably a
very important distinction inthat the railroads are
(12:35):
privately owned, rail gets thehighest infrastructure score
from the ASCE. Is there aconnection there? Is that the
reason or perhaps the mainreason why it's getting the
highest grade? Is it because ofits funding model?
Nasir Gharaibeh (12:50):
It might, but I go back to the tight
tolerance for safety issues inrail. The margin of error in
rail is really tight. If atrack is deficient, you really
have to fix it right awaybecause the safety consequences
will show up almost right away.
(13:12):
Whereas if you have a road thathas potholes and cracks and
things like that, the safetyconcerns are not as urgent as
they are in rail. So maybe thecombination of these two
factors, the importance ofsafety as well as the ownership
model, maybe these two play arole.
Bernie Fette (13:34):
And the rail companies know that to have a
successful and profitablecompany, they need to have a
safe operation.
Nasir Gharaibeh (13:40):
Yeah.
Bernie Fette (13:40):
I see you nodding Charles. Any further thoughts
on the rail piece of this?
Charles Gurganus (13:46):
No, I mean I think Dr. Gharaibeh covered
most of it there. The privateownership model connected with
the safety aspect of it,combined with the fact that
it's a more controlled userenvironment. And what I mean by
that is trains are scheduled,the person operating the train
(14:07):
is employed by the privatecompany. There's a limited
number of them, the route iswell-defined, the number of
cars is well-defined, whatthey're hauling is regulated
and well-defined. Contrast thatwith a roadway where you have
thousands of users all whoessentially work for
themselves, right? I mean it'sthe individual driving on the
roadway to get to whateverdestination it is they want.
(14:30):
Using the system in multiplepieces of the system that are
maybe a little bit fracturedand disjointed. It's not like a
linear rail where it's very,very fixed. Right? So there's
all this complexity that getsadded into the highway network.
There's that aspect that is, Iwould say somewhat simplifies
the rail system and then theprivate business model drives
(14:52):
towards safety. One because themagnitude of a safety issue on
the rail. But also we can'ttake out the fact that if you
have a safety issue and yourrail goes outta commission,
that impacts the bottom line.
Bernie Fette (15:02):
Right. And the profit margins in that industry
are razor thin. So that speaksto it a bit also it would seem.
Charles Gurganus (15:10):
Yeah , so our roadway systems are essentially
publicly owned either by DOT,county, or city compared to the
private model and the railsystem. So then if you think
about how you might want to tryto make more of an
apples-to-apples comparisonthere, you might take a look at
like some of our tolledfacilities, if you think about
Texas taking a look at sayNorth Texas Toll Authority,
(15:30):
HCTRA is the Harris Countytolling entity. They have a
privately owned system or whatis more privately owned;
functions a little bit morelike a rail system, a little
bit more performance-basedspecifications. So that
comparison might be worth alook at and see if those models
are a little bit more similarthan just say the DOT model.
Bernie Fette (15:49):
We've got just one more on what I would guess
is the surface transportationmodes and that's transit, which
got a D minus two years ago.
Once again unchanged from 2017.
One thing that kind of standsout here it seems is that
transit gets the lowest gradeof all the transportation modes
in the ASCE report card. Whatare your thoughts there?
Nasir Gharaibeh (16:13):
I'll go first, maybe Charles? You know, again,
transit is, is kind of has itsown unique issues. First,
transit is primarily an urbaninfrastructure. You know, we
don't see it much in ruralareas. It depends a lot on
ridership and funding for itand so forth is different
(16:36):
mechanisms than say the hardinfrastructure like roads and
bridges and airports and soforth. Plus at that, the issue
of public transportation in theU. S. Is not as high priority
as in other industrialcountries. For example, compare
(16:57):
public transportation in theU.S. to public transportation
in Japan, completely differentmodel in the U.S We like to
ride our cars and move aroundand so forth. So transit gets
less attention maybe than theother types of infrastructure.
Charles Gurganus (17:16):
Yeah, I think that's a fair summary. I think
a lot of times transit becomespolitical in terms of how are
we going to fund it?And some ofthat has to do with in the
United States it often needs tobe subsidized because the
ridership is not there tooffset the capital cost
associated with it. We are adriver-friendly country. We
(17:37):
have been so since theInterstate started to connect
people coast to coast 50 and 60years ago. So I think transit's
always kind of battling for itspiece of the pie. Like our
roadway systems, transit's acomplex piece of
infrastructure. You havestations, you have rail, you
have car, you , you've gotrolling stock you . And so it's
a very complex animal to try tofinance and keep in good
(18:01):
working order. That's achallenge for our transit
operators across the country.
Bernie Fette (18:05):
We have one more category that I guess
technically is a surfacetransportation mode. Our
seaports which earned a B-minustwo years ago, which was an
improvement over the C-plus in2017. Ports have their own
distinctions from the othermodes that we've talked about.
(18:26):
Any thoughts on our portcondition?
Charles Gurganus (18:29):
Give it a shot, Dr. Gharaibeh.
Nasir Gharaibeh (18:31):
transit and maybe to someextent rail. Those types of
infrastructure are really, theyhave their unique issues that a
lot of times go beyond thephysical condition of the
infrastructure. You know, portcapacity and congestion and you
(18:52):
know, issues that the one thatwe experienced after Covid , if
you recall, we have, you know,supply chain issues and ports
were congested. That willprobably affect the grade
because those grades , theycombine a lot of factors. So
the functional aspects of thetype of infrastructure plays a
(19:14):
role.
Charles Gurganus (19:16):
I would just add to that, that ports are a
little bit interesting as wellbecause they're the origin for
a lot of goods that end up onother modes of transportation.
And so if your ports wereoperating at say an A-plus,
that would, I would think implya drastic amount of throughput.
And if that's the case, we thenhave to ask ourselves can our
(19:37):
rail system and our roadwaysystem handle the throughput of
goods or would it just lead tothose scores going down as it
caught up? And so this is whereinfrastructure becomes fun
because these things start toconnect and these grades start
to overlap each other as youstart to think about the
intersection of all of thesedifferent infrastructure
(19:59):
components. Yeah,
Nasir Gharaibeh (20:00):
Yeah, that's a good point that these things
are really interconnected andinterdependent.
Bernie Fette (20:05):
So they're graded separately in the report card,
but they do not functionentirely independently.
Nasir Gharaibeh (20:11):
Yeah.
Bernie Fette (20:11):
There's a good bit of overlap and one moving
part is potentially going toaffect others.
Nasir Gharaibeh (20:19):
Yep .
Bernie Fette (20:21):
Let's move for just a few minutes if we can
from talking about theconditions and the problems or
the challenges you might sayand talk about the what should
be done, the solution side ofthis a little bit, starting
with the InfrastructureInvestment and Jobs Act that
you mentioned a little whileago , Nasir. What is that
(20:43):
legislation all about and whatcan we expect to happen from it
?
Nasir Gharaibeh (20:47):
That legislation is really, it's a
big investment ininfrastructure and it's a broad
investment. There arecomponents in it that are
related to roads and bridges,water transit, workforce
development, resilience toclimate change issues. So there
(21:10):
are many, many programs in itthat will affect somehow the
condition of our infrastructureas we move forward. You know,
it started from 2022, so it's afive-year law if you will, from
2022 to 2026, about 550 billionare invested in these programs,
(21:34):
which cover a lot of aspects ofinfrastructure. We should start
seeing some effect of it interms of improvement, you know,
as we move forward into thefuture.
Charles Gurganus (21:45):
So I guess I'll jump in on a couple of
things with the IIJA, just foodfor thought for our listeners
cuz Dr. Gharaibeh, I think dida great job of describing and
summarizing the funding levelsand the scale of it. I would
say that for the end user, youneed to be a little bit
patient. So infrastructureprojects are not, it's not
(22:06):
flipping a light switch.
They're not developed andturned on in a day or even a
year. They do take time todevelop. That's both on the
study side of things all theway through the design and
through the construction sideof it. We also have some
aspects right now where some ofthe funding that's out there is
helping offset the cost ofinflation as the construction
(22:27):
price index has gone upsignificantly. So there's gonna
be a lot of moving parts asthese dollars move through
different infrastructuresectors to produce projects.
Building and being part ofinfrastructure is a marathon,
it's not a sprint. And so everytime money gets out there, just
remember that, that one day youwill wake up and your problem
(22:49):
hopefully will be solved, butthat won't be tomorrow. It'll
be in the future sometime.
Bernie Fette (22:54):
And an important point that you raise, Charles,
is that the highway cost indexis rising pretty quickly. I
think that inflation,consumer-focused inflation has
been in the news a lot lately,but what a lot of our listeners
may not know is that inflationfor highway materials and road
and bridge constructionmaterials, that rate of
inflation is much higher andhas risen faster than the rate
(23:18):
of inflation for bread , milk,automobiles and other things
that people are more familiarwith, right?
Charles Gurganus (23:24):
Yeah.
Bernie Fette (23:24):
And you mentioned something about pavement
design, which makes me wonderwhat thoughts both of you have
about where technology fits into addressing the
infrastructure challenge.
Nasir Gharaibeh (23:38):
Technology is affecting the way we design
things, the way that we repairthings, the way that we monitor
the condition ofinfrastructure. It's affecting,
you know, all aspects ofinfrastructure development from
design to construction tomaintenance and monitoring.
(23:59):
Give you some examples. Youknow, there are all kinds of
sensors that are available towatch and monitor the condition
of bridges and pavements, getmore accurate data quickly to
the hands of the decisionmakers to make decisions on
when to repair a piece ofinfrastructure, how to repair
(24:21):
it. On the software side, thereare technologies that help with
decision making . How do Iprioritize my projects? You
know, what factors should Iinclude? Where does this money
go? How does it get invested?
There is software to help withthat material side. People are
thinking about producingmaterial that lasts longer,
(24:45):
that drains water faster in amore effective way. So
technology helps in allaspects.
Charles Gurganus (24:55):
Yeah, and to carry that into, say the
construction side and whatwe're seeing the private sector
work on. So automated vehiclesare in the news for automated
driving and things like that,but the , um, heavy equipment
manufacturers are in thatbusiness as well. What heavy
equipment can be automated orwhat things can be put on it to
(25:18):
improve the finished quality?
So is it smoother, is it morecompacted or, or whatever it
might be. So you have the majorheavy equipment operators
investing a lot into thistechnology. Those things are
great oftentimes from a safetyperspective because maybe
sometimes we can pull a personout of a potentially unsafe
(25:38):
environment, replace it with apiece of equipment. Of course
that comes with a wholeworkforce development
component. How do we helptransition the workforce as
technology continues to evolveso fast? Because it just seems
like it's moving reallyquickly.
Bernie Fette (25:54):
This is really such a huge topic and so
difficult to tackle iteffectively in a discussion
that lasts less than an hour.
But if there was just one thingthat you hoped our listeners
would take away from what we'vetalked about today, what would
that one thing be?
Nasir Gharaibeh (26:16):
I would go with the thought that Charles
brought up, which is patience .
Pieces of infrastructure aredesigned to last a long time.
Bridges last 50, a hundredyears. It takes a long time to
design them. It takes a longtime to build them and they
stay in service for a longtime. So patience is critical
(26:39):
from the public standpoint.
Change does not happen quicklywhen we deal with these big
structures.
Charles Gurganus (26:47):
So what I would maybe say is complexity,
dealing with infrastructure isa complex topic and that often
means how we finance itssolutions can be a little bit
complex as well. IIJA ispushing a lot of money out
there. Texas has done a lot ofgood things with various
proposition bonds over theyears to try to invest in
(27:10):
infrastructure. But there's alot of municipalities, a lot of
counties that own a lot ofinfrastructure elements,
constituencies. The people thatuse these systems need to think
about how we finance thesesolutions. So our scores go up.
So what do you want your systemto look like? And then listen
to in your local areas and inyour states, different
(27:33):
opportunities to finance themand then decide if it's right
for your community. Because Ithink we're going to have to
invest in our infrastructure.
But I think sometimes that'sdone really well at the local
level because of the differentcomplexities of it. Meeting the
needs of a local constituency Ithink is, is important to
consider when we talk aboutinfrastructure.
Bernie Fette (27:55):
Last question.
What is it that makes you wantto get up and come to work
every day ?
Charles Gurganus (28:03):
To solve our infrastructure problems
requires a lot of really smartpeople. And I've really enjoyed
over the last say 10 years,seeing a transition in my
career of being around a lot ofgifted people that have a lot
of knowledge that I, I didn'teven know it existed in some
cases, and I've learned so muchfrom them. And then be able to
input the civil engineeringtechnical aspect to it makes
(28:25):
the job fun.
Bernie Fette (28:27):
Nasir?
Nasir Gharaibeh (28:28):
Agree. We are fortunate in civil engineering
that we get to do the, theengineering, technical
engineering part. That's stillkind of the heart of what we
do, but because what we do, itaffects people's lives.
Transportation, you know, it'spart of everyday life for many
people. We get to make thatkinda extension, that kind of
(28:50):
jump beyond the technical workand go into how does that
affect people, right? And thatrequires interacting with
peoples from all kinds ofdisciplines.
Bernie Fette (29:04):
Dr. Charles Gurganus is the pavement
management program manager atTTI and the deputy director of
the Center for InfrastructureRenewal. Dr. Nasir Gharaibeh is
a professor of civil andenvironmental engineering at
Texas A&M University. Charlesand Nasir, thank you both so
(29:24):
much for sharing your time andyour insight with us today.
Nasir Gharaibeh (29:27):
Thank you.
Charles Gurganus (29:28):
Thank you.
Bernie Fette (29:31):
It's easy to take our transportation
infrastructure for granted,whether traveling across town
or across the country. Wesimply go about our journeys,
rarely appreciating how trulyreliable our mobility network
is. We could all use a reminderof that now and then, because
(29:52):
roads and bridges in Americawere built to last, but they
were not built to last forever.
Thanks for listening. Pleasetake just a minute to give us a
review, subscribe and sharethis episode, and please join
us again next time for aconversation with Jeff Shelton
. We can learn more then abouthow research is using
(30:14):
sophisticated traffic models tohelp cities prepare for natural
disasters and other extremeevents. Thinking Transportation
is a production of the TexasA&M Transportation Institute, a
member of the Texas A&MUniversity system. The show is
edited and produced by ChrisPourteau. I'm your writer and
(30:36):
host, Bernie Fette. Thanksagain for listening. We'll see
you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.