What’s the real difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist—and how do you know which one you need? We sit down with Jamie Harris to draw a clean, practical line between medication management, talk therapy, and psychological assessment, then follow that thread into the lived experience of seeking help, building trust, and staying well in a chaotic world.
Jamie shares how training shapes the work—psychiatrists focus on prescribing and medical care, while psychologists go deep on therapy methods and assessments like ADHD and autism evaluations. We get into the messy, human parts too: why the right fit with a therapist matters more than their modality, how nonjudgment and curiosity make therapy safer, and what keeps clinicians grounded when imposter feelings creep in. If you’re considering this field, Jamie lays out the real pathway—advanced degrees, supervised hours, and the wide range of settings that lead to meaningful work and viable income.
The conversation turns to our collective stress test: a pandemic that filled telehealth schedules, lengthened waitlists, and surfaced low-grade depression, boredom, and fatigue. We explore reentry anxiety, public anger, and that edgy fight-or-flight energy showing up on planes and in lines. Jamie offers calm, concrete guidance on where to start—primary care referrals for medication questions, Psychology Today for therapist fit, and community clinics or Medicaid options when cost is a barrier. Parents will find smart strategies for engaging kids and teens in therapy, including why privacy builds honesty. Along the way, we talk about values resets, learning what to keep from lockdown, and taking small steps back into social life with care rather than fear.
If you’ve wondered whether it’s time to talk to someone, or which door to knock on first, this conversation gives you a map—and the permission to choose what fits you now. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who needs clarity, and leave a review to help more people find thoughtful mental health conversations.
Tired of surface-level inspiration? This raw, transformative documentary digs deep into turning pain into purpose. Mainstream platforms wouldn't touch these powerful stories of resilience, but you can access them now on elrodvnetwork.com.
Tired of surface-level inspiration? This raw, transformative documentary digs deep into turning pain into purpose. Mainstream platforms wouldn't touch these powerful stories of resilience, but you can access them now on elrodvnetwork.com.
Tired of surface-level inspiration? This raw, transformative documentary digs deep into turning pain into purpose. Mainstream platforms wouldn't touch these powerful stories of resilience, but you can access them now on elrodvnetwork.com.
Hello, and thank you for listening to Thirsty Topics podcast! I'm Lawrence Elrod, and every week Meryl Klemow and I dive deep into the stories that matter, the conversations that shape our world."
Please help support our show by following us and telling others about our show. New podcasts weekly.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:17):
All right, everyone, welcome back.
We have a great friend of mine.
Her name is Jamie Harris.
Jamie, welcome to the show.
I really appreciate you spendingsome time with us today.
We want to try to get to know alittle bit more about psychology
and also about psychiatry.
(00:37):
I know there's different viewsof what people think that is and
how it affects them.
Can you kind of tell us in yourwords, based on your experience,
what people should know aboutthat?
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Sure.
A lot of times they're usedinterchangeably.
I think, you know, the prefixpsych, but psychiatry is a
medical degree that involvesprescribing services, and that's
mainly what psychiatrists do.
So a psychiatrist is someoneyou're going to go to if you
have a mental health concernthat requires some medication.
Some psychiatrists do dotherapy, but many, to be honest,
(01:12):
aren't necessarily qualified todo therapy because that's not
something that their programsfocus on.
For psychologists, our programsfocus on different types of
therapy.
We usually pick a differenttherapy track depending on what
we're interested in.
And we learn different methodsthat way and then through
practice and training.
(01:32):
And then another difference withpsychologists is that we also do
psych assessments.
So depending on where you'reworking, what your area of
proficiency is, it might besomething like, you know, I want
to know if I have ADHD, I wantto know if my child has autism.
So we also do those types ofservices as well where we do
(01:53):
interviews and give appropriateassessments and then um are able
to give somebody a gooddiagnostic impression with some
data.
SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
So what inspired you to become a psychologist?
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Well, I think as is true of many people in my field,
I just have had a very colorfulfamily background.
Oh, who doesn't though?
Yeah, exactly.
So um it's something abouthelping people but also
understanding things in adifferent way.
And yeah, I found that it's areally great fit and I've met
just amazing people.
(02:28):
And you know, it's it's great tohave a job where I really care
about the people I work with andI get to spend time with
different types of people andlearn new things.
So I really like that about it.
So it's ended up being a goodfit, but yeah, stressful at
times.
SPEAKER_02 (02:43):
Oh yeah, I know I I can imagine.
SPEAKER_03 (02:45):
Do you think that um the myth about mental health um
has gotten better over time?
Because I know years ago, um,especially for men, you know, a
lot of men, you know, meincluded, would hold stuff in.
We really, you know, you're kindof taught to not really display
emotions, but do you feel that'skind of changing these days now?
SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
Yes, I definitely think so.
I mean, there is still some ofthat that sticks around, you
know, especially from people ofthat generation and the
generation before them.
But um, it's amazing to see, youknow, unfortunately, a lot of
kids these days and teenagersare struggling with mental
health concerns, and a lot ofthem are very pro-therapy and
(03:29):
pro-seeking help, which is areally great thing.
You know, certainly not happy tosee more mental health issues,
but definitely happier thatpeople are talking about it more
and making it more normal toseek out help when it's needed.
So I would say it also dependson the region you live in, too.
Really, you know, if you'regonna live in a more
conservative area, moresouthern, mental health might
(03:51):
not be as recognized as it is ina more urban area too, or as um
normalized you know, Chicago isgreat because everybody has a
therapist in Chicago, it seemslike so.
SPEAKER_02 (04:03):
Everybody needs a therapist in Chicago.
Um so what um it's it's kind ofa thankless job, I I in my
opinion.
What keeps you going when youare listening to other people's
problems all day long?
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
I would say it's the people that I'm working with.
You know, it's an honor to it'san honor for somebody to open up
and tell you about, you know,their fears, their past, um
their worries, their concerns.
It's a very vulnerable place tobe in, and I don't take that for
granted at all.
(04:42):
And I've just met some amazingpeople that have overcome so
much and I'm really honored tobe that person for them.
And you know, there's also a lotof imposter syndrome that comes
in there, like who am I to helpthis person with this problem?
But people have free will, youknow, and they could always go
to a different therapist, andthe fact that they stick with me
(05:03):
means a lot to me.
Sure.
SPEAKER_03 (05:07):
Now, what do you think about someone who's really
thinking about, you know,getting into um some type of of
you know, maybe psychology, uhmaybe it could be psychiatry,
you know, something to wherethey want to help people, but
they're a little gun shy becauseyou know, they're you know, all
the myths of well, I'm not gonnamake a lot of money, you know,
(05:28):
you know, I'm gonna struggle,you know, who am I, you know,
all these different things goingon.
What type of person will be agood person to try and get into
this field, you think?
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Well, it's important for anybody to have good coping
skills.
You know, it's certainly not arequirement for somebody that
goes into this field to have nomental health concerns.
You know, in fact, I think someof the better therapists or drug
counselors, alcohol counselorshave had experience.
Um, but a lot of it is how youcope and manage stress.
(06:00):
So you have to really buildthose skills up so that you can
be effective and not transfertoo much on your clients while
still being able to relate andempathize with them.
So I think that is a veryimportant part of it.
Um having a curiosity isimportant, not being judgmental
is huge, learning how to putyour own biases aside is really
(06:20):
huge because you hear thingssometimes that are completely
contradictory to what you'vebeen taught or what you believe,
and it's important not to letthat show because that will turn
somebody right away from openingup.
SPEAKER_02 (06:33):
And actually, similar to that, if there is
someone who is struggling withtheir mental health and they
just have nowhere to turn, wherewould you say is a good place to
start looking into?
I mean, going to your familydoctor or just going to a
support group, where would yousay would be a good place to go?
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
It really depends on what you're looking for.
A family doctor can be a goodplace to start for a referral
for like a psychiatrist ifyou're looking for medication.
Um it's definitely good to havean evaluation, even if you don't
choose to use medication, justto know what's available.
And then as far as therapy goes,we know the most important thing
with therapy is finding somebodythat you fit with.
(07:14):
Um it doesn't even really matterhow much experience the person
has had or what their modalityis.
It really depends on if you feelcomfortable with them.
So one thing that I alwaysrecommend, you know, is
psychology today has a ton oftherapists.
It's like a menu, pretty much.
You can like type in where youlive, you can type in your
insurance, and it gives you likesomeone's picture, it gives you
(07:36):
their bio.
And of course, you can't telleverything by reading a bio and
seeing a picture, but at leastit gives you a place to start,
you know, especially if you'relooking for a certain
demographic of a therapist orsomething else that might help
you feel more comfortable.
So I think that's a really greatresource.
You know, also insurance has tobe a consideration, um,
(07:56):
unfortunately, becauseinsurance, you know, we don't
have um Medicare for all.
So um, you know, it depends onalso what's affordable to you.
Um, there are some really greattherapists that work at
community mental health centers.
So if somebody doesn't haveinsurance or if they have
Medicaid, there are optionsavailable.
SPEAKER_03 (08:17):
So now let me ask you this.
If someone was serious abouttrying to get into this field,
what advice or what directionwould you give them if they
really wanted to do this andthey wanted to do something
right now?
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
Um the advice that I would give is to just know that
you have to get an advanceddegree in order to do um
anything really independently.
So I was pretty disheartenedwhen I got my bachelor's degree,
and I thought that was prettyfancy, and then I was not four
years.
I just had my own, yeah, I justI stayed at New York Jones as a
(08:51):
inpatient unit because that waswhat I was qualified to do.
And then I managed a group home,which was incredibly stressful
and not something I had anyexperience in, you know.
Yeah, sure.
Um, and so it's just importantto know that that might be
discouraging, but then there isthe next step where you can get
a master's degree, um, you canchoose to go on and get a
(09:14):
doctorate.
So main piece of advice is toknow that it's going to be time
consuming, it's gonna be costly,um, but the thing I've noticed
about it that I think is reallyimportant is that you have a ton
of options.
So you can do so many differentthings within the field.
And there are opportunities tomake a decent living.
Um not so much in communitymental health, but private
(09:38):
practice and in other places.
SPEAKER_02 (09:41):
If there again, I'm mean me and Lawrence are just
bouncing off of each other here.
Um if there was, let's say, ifyou wanted your child to go to
um a psychiatrist orpsychologist, um, is there a
specific way to talk to themabout that or to convince them?
Or I mean, how would you getthem to go?
(10:03):
Do what you they don't want todo.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Oh, that's definitely a challenge.
And I've definitely dealt withthat for.
Oh, absolutely.
Um, I worked at a nurse siteclinic and we worked with a lot
of kids who were on thespectrum.
Um, they don't see the point oftherapy.
A lot of them don't, and I don'tblame them for not seeing the
point of therapy.
So it was, you know, a lot of itwas parents kind of making them
(10:27):
go and then me trying to adaptwith them and make it as fun as
possible by bringing in theirinterests and making it about
more than just talking so thatit didn't seem like this
torturous thing where they hadto come talk to some dorky
adult.
Um it can be very hard toconvince your kiddo to go if
they're not into it.
(10:47):
Um, you know, I think seeingmore about what it's like and
knowing that this is a personthat's just here for you and you
don't have to just talk thewhole time.
You can just hang out and doother things.
I think that can be helpful too.
So that they don't feel likethey're being grilled, you know.
Right.
Oh, absolutely.
Nobody wants to sit on a couchand get grilled for 45 minutes.
SPEAKER_02 (11:07):
Well, especially if they think there's a right in
audience in too and just tellingyou what you want to hear, and
so then it's not helpful at all.
SPEAKER_00 (11:13):
Yeah, and also for teenagers, you know, I'm
thinking in particular, it's notlike we have to tell the parents
everything a teenager unlessthey're telling you something
that's dangerous.
You know, if they're puttingthemselves in any kind of harm's
way, that's one thing.
But you know, everybody doessneaky little things when
they're teenagers, and that'snot something I'm gonna go back
and tell your parents, you know,unless there's a reason why I
(11:37):
need to.
So I think sometimes they don'twant to talk to therapists
because they feel like thetherapist is just gonna go back
and relay everything to theirparents, and um, a good trusted
worthy therapist will find a wayto skirt that line without
having to do that.
SPEAKER_03 (11:51):
Sure.
Well, you know what?
We have to take a quick break,but we want you to stick around
because we're gonna have a greatthirsty conversation.
So for everyone else, we'regonna take a very quick break
and we'll be right back.
All right, everybody, we're backwith Jamie Harris, and we're
(12:14):
going to have a thirstyconversation.
So, Kristen, what are we talkingabout?
SPEAKER_02 (12:18):
Okay, so this has been a hunch, a suspicion I've
had uh throughout the wholepandemic, and now I can actually
ask a professional about it.
Do you think and do you thinkthe pandemic has caused more
stress and anxiety anddepression in the United States?
And how and how has it affectedus mentally?
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
Absolutely.
Well, you know, it's been aninteresting year.
It really has been.
And, you know, from like a more,I guess, quantitative standpoint
too, when I started my new jobat the beginning, right at the
beginning of the pandemic, verygood timing, um, it did not take
(13:03):
long for me to fill up acaseload because as the pandemic
started, uh, very few peoplewere really interested in doing
telehealth.
I think we thought that thingswere going to progress more
quickly than they did and wewere gonna get back to normal
quicker.
Um, but as things continued,more and more people reached out
to the point where we have waitlists, you know.
(13:24):
Yeah, because um I think moreand more people are realizing
that we need that humanconnection.
Um we don't want to necessarilyunload on our family members all
the time, you know.
We have a lot of great naturalsupports, but the best thing
about a therapist is that it'ssomebody just for you to talk
to.
It doesn't have to bereciprocal.
(13:45):
You don't have to worry about,oh, I'm going through a hard
time, am I dumping too much onthis person?
That's my job.
So that is something that morepeople seem to have been
embracing.
Um, and a lot of the themes thatI've seen over this year, you
know, a lot of anxiety, a lot ofdepression, a lot of boredom and
(14:07):
malaise, and is this ever gonnaend?
You know, there has been a lotof the more lower levels of
depression that I've seen withclients this year.
Where it's not necessarilyclinic, like necessarily
clinical, it's not necessarilylike interfering with
functioning significantly, butit's enough where low
motivation, I don't want to doanything, I don't want to get
(14:27):
out of bed, you know, I'm notgoing to the gym, I'm gaining
weight, and um, I think we alldo that a little bit, but yeah,
and that's part of the stressresponse, part of that low level
of anxiety from being in atraumatic situation long time
that doesn't resolve itself.
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (14:44):
Now, you know the interesting thing that I've
seen, being that things areopening up, you would think that
people will be happy, they wantto get out, have a good time,
enjoy themselves.
What's surprising to me is thelevel of anger.
Like, for example, on airplanes,you know, people fighting the
attendants.
You know, one attendantliterally having her teeth
(15:06):
knocked out.
I mean, it's just nuts.
Um, and it's, you know, kind ofalmost like an epidemic right
now.
And I've never seen it before.
I mean, from from yourstandpoint, what do you think is
going on there?
I mean, I would think that, youknow, everybody'd be happy.
Okay, so what you gotta wear amask on a plane, but I don't
think it's worth, you know,getting into fights over.
(15:27):
Yeah, injuring somebody.
Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Yeah.
Well, I'm thinking, you know,when it comes to anxiety, we
hear about the fight or flightsystem.
I think these people are havinga little extra dose of fight
when they're out in public andsomething inconveniences them,
um, and just being on edgealready because we're not used
to being out in public the sameway, we're not used to being
around people, um, and then notaddressing that properly, it's
(15:52):
going to come out um in a Iguess what we call like a
maladaptive way.
SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
Um, so I know you'd kind of mentioned this a little
bit with your caseload influx.
Do you feel that some peoplejust reached out to you only to
have somebody to talk to?
And then you you talk to themand you're like, well, you don't
seem extra extra depressed orextra anxious, like, and it just
was like, oh, you need a friend.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
I mean, was that any of your I think to some extent,
yeah.
Um, you know, generallyeverybody has something that
they're working on, but it'sonce again just the facet of
having someone that you can talkto that's just for you, and not
having to worry about um burningout a family or f family member
or friend.
(16:41):
So yeah, definitely have peoplethat don't come in for a
specific reason, but they'relike, I think I just want to
have a therapist.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
I think I just need somebody.
Yeah.
Which makes sense.
And I also um I've personallythought, I guess until the
pandemic, that um depression andanxiety were all biological
traits.
I mean, this is again me and mystupidity.
Um, but you know, I I've alwaysbeen the person that's like, you
know, it's you can go through abad situation and not
(17:09):
necessarily get anxiety from itor depression.
And then going through this andfor this prolonged period of
time has really m made me seethat like a as you know, a
situation can cause depression.
I know that's you're like, yeah,I know.
But I mean, really, yeah, asituation can can change you
(17:30):
chemically and physically.
That's astonishing to me.
SPEAKER_00 (17:34):
Well, you know, we tend to feel like we can get
through anything.
You know, people have had itworse, people have been through
worse.
It's a thing I hear all thetime.
And so I think it is surprisingwhen we find ourselves like on
the other end of that.
Like, oh, you know, I'm reallynot myself anymore.
I'm not sleeping well, and youknow, I have no energy, I have
no and it's amazing how thosethings can sneak up when you
(17:58):
least expect it.
So don't feel bad about notknowing that.
It's you know, it's I guess partof our constitution in a lot of
ways.
Like we can get through this,right?
People have gone through worse,but it really takes its toll.
SPEAKER_03 (18:12):
What do you say to people who have been fully
vaccinated?
You know, they've you knowstayed away from people, stayed
in their house, they did all theright things, now that things
are opening up, they still havethis anxiety about you know,
going out not wearing a mask,even though they don't need to,
going around people or evenhaving people over their house.
(18:32):
What do you say to people thatare kind of struggling with now
that things are opening back up?
SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
People like me is what you're saying.
People like me.
What would you say to peoplelike that?
SPEAKER_03 (18:39):
Well, I didn't I didn't go there, but you know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
So it's even hard to sit in that chair and be like,
well, this is pathological, youknow?
Because it's hard to say likewhat's like agoraphobia or
what's an anxiety disorder, andwhat's like somebody being extra
cautious because we getdifferent information all the
time.
So I think that's been a majorstruggle trying to help people
navigate while not knowingbecause it's hard to tell where
(19:10):
that line is.
And I feel like even thoughthings are opening up and seem
safer now, we've got this deltavariant and other, you know,
other things are coming intoplay where you know it's it's
really a thin line.
And it's really hard to tellsometimes if I should be pushing
somebody to do more or pushingthem to address like anxiety and
(19:31):
avoidance, or you know, if it'sjust a natural variation of the
reaction that we have to thisvery bizarre situation that
we're in now.
SPEAKER_02 (19:40):
And I think to me, it's it's changed me as a
person.
I used to be more like I used togo to parties and feel energized
from them, and now like havingexperienced being in my house
for a year, I like it.
And I am like, I don't maybewant to go out, but you you
know, I mean, I'm still livingwith a a daughter and a husband
(20:00):
who are like, let's go.
You know, so I mean I know I'mtrying to relearn you know what
old Kristen was like, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (20:10):
Right, yeah, we've never had that taken away for
such a long time.
SPEAKER_02 (20:13):
Yeah, yeah.
The length of time I think makessuch a difference.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
It does.
And we spent so much time beingfearful and avoidant of other
people because they could becarrying this disease, and now
we're like, oh, I'm justsupposed to be comfortable being
in this crowded airport, youknow.
SPEAKER_02 (20:28):
Right, and but and also avoiding um, you know,
avoiding people because of thepandemic, you also avoided
people you don't like.
You know what I mean?
So, right, like my life short,maybe I won't go to that brunch
with because I don't really feelgood doing it.
(20:50):
And and COVID was a really goodexcuse to avoid those things.
It really was.
You know, or like familyreunions, right?
No, I love my family.
SPEAKER_03 (21:02):
It's a great time to re-evaluate because I know a lot
of people, including myself, youknow, when you're locked in your
house for a whole year, you'renot really going out, you're not
doing anything, you know, youkind of evaluate what's
important.
And sometimes things that youlook at don't look the same
anymore.
You know, it's like, hey, I'mdoing this, you know, you get
(21:24):
up, you go to work, come home,take care of your family, go to
bed, then get up, do it all overagain.
And you know, you get to a pointthat's like, okay, life's gotta
be more than this, this.
You know what I mean?
And a lot of times you get tothat point where you evaluate
things.
So even though, yeah, it was itwas hell going through that
year, but I think it wasself-reflection, in my opinion,
(21:47):
you know, for a lot of people,as far as re-evaluating what
they really want to do.
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
And I think that that take on it though, I mean,
I think personally shows, Imean, especially I think for you
and I, because I know you and Iwell enough, uh, that I mean it
shows how good we had it throughthe pandemic, also.
Because I mean, I know anxiety'sreally flared for people who,
you know, lost their jobs orwhose loved ones, you know, got
(22:13):
got COVID, you know.
And so I mean, I really thinkthat contributed to the you
know, financial loss and and youknow, losing a family member
really contributed to people'sdepression and anxiety, and you
know, I the the uh being stuckat home is almost the best part
of the worst of it, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (22:35):
Well, I tell you, this was a great great segment.
We had so much fun with you,Jamie.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for being here.
Hopefully you come back.
Absolutely all right then.
Well, everyone else, don't gotoo far.
We're going to take anotherquick break.
Welcome back, everyone.
We had a fantastic show.
We had so much fun with JamieHarris.
SPEAKER_02 (22:58):
American Ardec.
I feel like we we unpacked a lotof things.
Psychologists.
SPEAKER_03 (23:04):
Yes.
Uh we went over a lot of stuff,had a lot of great fun.
Um, I want to make sure that Iwant to thank uh the American
Legion for letting us have ourshow there.
We were really appreciative.
SPEAKER_02 (23:16):
Check us out on Instagram, YouTube, or Facebook,
Thursday Conversations, and alsoon Cam TV.
SPEAKER_03 (23:23):
All right, everyone.
Well, everyone, enjoy the restof your day, and don't forget to
have those Thursdayconversations.
Take care, everyone.
Bye bye.
All right, everyone, welcome back.
We have a great friend of mine.
Her name is Jamie Harris.
Jamie, welcome to the show.
I really appreciate you spendingsome time with us today.
We want to try to get to know alittle bit more about psychology
and also about psychiatry.
(00:37):
I know there's different viewsof what people think that is and
how it affects them.
Can you kind of tell us in yourwords, based on your experience,
what people should know aboutthat?
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Sure.
A lot of times they're usedinterchangeably.
I think, you know, the prefixpsych, but psychiatry is a
medical degree that involvesprescribing services, and that's
mainly what psychiatrists do.
So a psychiatrist is someoneyou're going to go to if you
have a mental health concernthat requires some medication.
Some psychiatrists do dotherapy, but many, to be honest,
(01:12):
aren't necessarily qualified todo therapy because that's not
something that their programsfocus on.
For psychologists, our programsfocus on different types of
therapy.
We usually pick a differenttherapy track depending on what
we're interested in.
And we learn different methodsthat way and then through
practice and training.
(01:32):
And then another difference withpsychologists is that we also do
psych assessments.
So depending on where you'reworking, what your area of
proficiency is, it might besomething like, you know, I want
to know if I have ADHD, I wantto know if my child has autism.
So we also do those types ofservices as well where we do
(01:53):
interviews and give appropriateassessments and then um are able
to give somebody a gooddiagnostic impression with some
data.
SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
So what inspired you to become a psychologist?
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Well, I think as is true of many people in my field,
I just have had a very colorfulfamily background.
Oh, who doesn't though?
Yeah, exactly.
So um it's something abouthelping people but also
understanding things in adifferent way.
And yeah, I found that it's areally great fit and I've met
just amazing people.
(02:28):
And you know, it's it's great tohave a job where I really care
about the people I work with andI get to spend time with
different types of people andlearn new things.
So I really like that about it.
So it's ended up being a goodfit, but yeah, stressful at
times.
SPEAKER_02 (02:43):
Oh yeah, I know I I can imagine.
SPEAKER_03 (02:45):
Do you think that um the myth about mental health um
has gotten better over time?
Because I know years ago, um,especially for men, you know, a
lot of men, you know, meincluded, would hold stuff in.
We really, you know, you're kindof taught to not really display
emotions, but do you feel that'skind of changing these days now?
SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
Yes, I definitely think so.
I mean, there is still some ofthat that sticks around, you
know, especially from people ofthat generation and the
generation before them.
But um, it's amazing to see, youknow, unfortunately, a lot of
kids these days and teenagersare struggling with mental
health concerns, and a lot ofthem are very pro-therapy and
(03:29):
pro-seeking help, which is areally great thing.
You know, certainly not happy tosee more mental health issues,
but definitely happier thatpeople are talking about it more
and making it more normal toseek out help when it's needed.
So I would say it also dependson the region you live in, too.
Really, you know, if you'regonna live in a more
conservative area, moresouthern, mental health might
(03:51):
not be as recognized as it is ina more urban area too, or as um
normalized you know, Chicago isgreat because everybody has a
therapist in Chicago, it seemslike so.
SPEAKER_02 (04:03):
Everybody needs a therapist in Chicago.
Um so what um it's it's kind ofa thankless job, I I in my
opinion.
What keeps you going when youare listening to other people's
problems all day long?
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
I would say it's the people that I'm working with.
You know, it's an honor to it'san honor for somebody to open up
and tell you about, you know,their fears, their past, um
their worries, their concerns.
It's a very vulnerable place tobe in, and I don't take that for
granted at all.
(04:42):
And I've just met some amazingpeople that have overcome so
much and I'm really honored tobe that person for them.
And you know, there's also a lotof imposter syndrome that comes
in there, like who am I to helpthis person with this problem?
But people have free will, youknow, and they could always go
to a different therapist, andthe fact that they stick with me
(05:03):
means a lot to me.
Sure.
SPEAKER_03 (05:07):
Now, what do you think about someone who's really
thinking about, you know,getting into um some type of of
you know, maybe psychology, uhmaybe it could be psychiatry,
you know, something to wherethey want to help people, but
they're a little gun shy becauseyou know, they're you know, all
the myths of well, I'm not gonnamake a lot of money, you know,
(05:28):
you know, I'm gonna struggle,you know, who am I, you know,
all these different things goingon.
What type of person will be agood person to try and get into
this field, you think?
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Well, it's important for anybody to have good coping
skills.
You know, it's certainly not arequirement for somebody that
goes into this field to have nomental health concerns.
You know, in fact, I think someof the better therapists or drug
counselors, alcohol counselorshave had experience.
Um, but a lot of it is how youcope and manage stress.
(06:00):
So you have to really buildthose skills up so that you can
be effective and not transfertoo much on your clients while
still being able to relate andempathize with them.
So I think that is a veryimportant part of it.
Um having a curiosity isimportant, not being judgmental
is huge, learning how to putyour own biases aside is really
(06:20):
huge because you hear thingssometimes that are completely
contradictory to what you'vebeen taught or what you believe,
and it's important not to letthat show because that will turn
somebody right away from openingup.
SPEAKER_02 (06:33):
And actually, similar to that, if there is
someone who is struggling withtheir mental health and they
just have nowhere to turn, wherewould you say is a good place to
start looking into?
I mean, going to your familydoctor or just going to a
support group, where would yousay would be a good place to go?
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
It really depends on what you're looking for.
A family doctor can be a goodplace to start for a referral
for like a psychiatrist ifyou're looking for medication.
Um it's definitely good to havean evaluation, even if you don't
choose to use medication, justto know what's available.
And then as far as therapy goes,we know the most important thing
with therapy is finding somebodythat you fit with.
(07:14):
Um it doesn't even really matterhow much experience the person
has had or what their modalityis.
It really depends on if you feelcomfortable with them.
So one thing that I alwaysrecommend, you know, is
psychology today has a ton oftherapists.
It's like a menu, pretty much.
You can like type in where youlive, you can type in your
insurance, and it gives you likesomeone's picture, it gives you
(07:36):
their bio.
And of course, you can't telleverything by reading a bio and
seeing a picture, but at leastit gives you a place to start,
you know, especially if you'relooking for a certain
demographic of a therapist orsomething else that might help
you feel more comfortable.
So I think that's a really greatresource.
You know, also insurance has tobe a consideration, um,
(07:56):
unfortunately, becauseinsurance, you know, we don't
have um Medicare for all.
So um, you know, it depends onalso what's affordable to you.
Um, there are some really greattherapists that work at
community mental health centers.
So if somebody doesn't haveinsurance or if they have
Medicaid, there are optionsavailable.
SPEAKER_03 (08:17):
So now let me ask you this.
If someone was serious abouttrying to get into this field,
what advice or what directionwould you give them if they
really wanted to do this andthey wanted to do something
right now?
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
Um the advice that I would give is to just know that
you have to get an advanceddegree in order to do um
anything really independently.
So I was pretty disheartenedwhen I got my bachelor's degree,
and I thought that was prettyfancy, and then I was not four
years.
I just had my own, yeah, I justI stayed at New York Jones as a
(08:51):
inpatient unit because that waswhat I was qualified to do.
And then I managed a group home,which was incredibly stressful
and not something I had anyexperience in, you know.
Yeah, sure.
Um, and so it's just importantto know that that might be
discouraging, but then there isthe next step where you can get
a master's degree, um, you canchoose to go on and get a
(09:14):
doctorate.
So main piece of advice is toknow that it's going to be time
consuming, it's gonna be costly,um, but the thing I've noticed
about it that I think is reallyimportant is that you have a ton
of options.
So you can do so many differentthings within the field.
And there are opportunities tomake a decent living.
Um not so much in communitymental health, but private
(09:38):
practice and in other places.
SPEAKER_02 (09:41):
If there again, I'm mean me and Lawrence are just
bouncing off of each other here.
Um if there was, let's say, ifyou wanted your child to go to
um a psychiatrist orpsychologist, um, is there a
specific way to talk to themabout that or to convince them?
Or I mean, how would you getthem to go?
(10:03):
Do what you they don't want todo.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Oh, that's definitely a challenge.
And I've definitely dealt withthat for.
Oh, absolutely.
Um, I worked at a nurse siteclinic and we worked with a lot
of kids who were on thespectrum.
Um, they don't see the point oftherapy.
A lot of them don't, and I don'tblame them for not seeing the
point of therapy.
So it was, you know, a lot of itwas parents kind of making them
(10:27):
go and then me trying to adaptwith them and make it as fun as
possible by bringing in theirinterests and making it about
more than just talking so thatit didn't seem like this
torturous thing where they hadto come talk to some dorky
adult.
Um it can be very hard toconvince your kiddo to go if
they're not into it.
(10:47):
Um, you know, I think seeingmore about what it's like and
knowing that this is a personthat's just here for you and you
don't have to just talk thewhole time.
You can just hang out and doother things.
I think that can be helpful too.
So that they don't feel likethey're being grilled, you know.
Right.
Oh, absolutely.
Nobody wants to sit on a couchand get grilled for 45 minutes.
SPEAKER_02 (11:07):
Well, especially if they think there's a right in
audience in too and just tellingyou what you want to hear, and
so then it's not helpful at all.
SPEAKER_00 (11:13):
Yeah, and also for teenagers, you know, I'm
thinking in particular, it's notlike we have to tell the parents
everything a teenager unlessthey're telling you something
that's dangerous.
You know, if they're puttingthemselves in any kind of harm's
way, that's one thing.
But you know, everybody doessneaky little things when
they're teenagers, and that'snot something I'm gonna go back
and tell your parents, you know,unless there's a reason why I
(11:37):
need to.
So I think sometimes they don'twant to talk to therapists
because they feel like thetherapist is just gonna go back
and relay everything to theirparents, and um, a good trusted
worthy therapist will find a wayto skirt that line without
having to do that.
SPEAKER_03 (11:51):
Sure.
Well, you know what?
We have to take a quick break,but we want you to stick around
because we're gonna have a greatthirsty conversation.
So for everyone else, we'regonna take a very quick break
and we'll be right back.
All right, everybody, we're backwith Jamie Harris, and we're
(12:14):
going to have a thirstyconversation.
So, Kristen, what are we talkingabout?
SPEAKER_02 (12:18):
Okay, so this has been a hunch, a suspicion I've
had uh throughout the wholepandemic, and now I can actually
ask a professional about it.
Do you think and do you thinkthe pandemic has caused more
stress and anxiety anddepression in the United States?
And how and how has it affectedus mentally?
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
Absolutely.
Well, you know, it's been aninteresting year.
It really has been.
And, you know, from like a more,I guess, quantitative standpoint
too, when I started my new jobat the beginning, right at the
beginning of the pandemic, verygood timing, um, it did not take
(13:03):
long for me to fill up acaseload because as the pandemic
started, uh, very few peoplewere really interested in doing
telehealth.
I think we thought that thingswere going to progress more
quickly than they did and wewere gonna get back to normal
quicker.
Um, but as things continued,more and more people reached out
to the point where we have waitlists, you know.
(13:24):
Yeah, because um I think moreand more people are realizing
that we need that humanconnection.
Um we don't want to necessarilyunload on our family members all
the time, you know.
We have a lot of great naturalsupports, but the best thing
about a therapist is that it'ssomebody just for you to talk
to.
It doesn't have to bereciprocal.
(13:45):
You don't have to worry about,oh, I'm going through a hard
time, am I dumping too much onthis person?
That's my job.
So that is something that morepeople seem to have been
embracing.
Um, and a lot of the themes thatI've seen over this year, you
know, a lot of anxiety, a lot ofdepression, a lot of boredom and
(14:07):
malaise, and is this ever gonnaend?
You know, there has been a lotof the more lower levels of
depression that I've seen withclients this year.
Where it's not necessarilyclinic, like necessarily
clinical, it's not necessarilylike interfering with
functioning significantly, butit's enough where low
motivation, I don't want to doanything, I don't want to get
(14:27):
out of bed, you know, I'm notgoing to the gym, I'm gaining
weight, and um, I think we alldo that a little bit, but yeah,
and that's part of the stressresponse, part of that low level
of anxiety from being in atraumatic situation long time
that doesn't resolve itself.
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (14:44):
Now, you know the interesting thing that I've
seen, being that things areopening up, you would think that
people will be happy, they wantto get out, have a good time,
enjoy themselves.
What's surprising to me is thelevel of anger.
Like, for example, on airplanes,you know, people fighting the
attendants.
You know, one attendantliterally having her teeth
(15:06):
knocked out.
I mean, it's just nuts.
Um, and it's, you know, kind ofalmost like an epidemic right
now.
And I've never seen it before.
I mean, from from yourstandpoint, what do you think is
going on there?
I mean, I would think that, youknow, everybody'd be happy.
Okay, so what you gotta wear amask on a plane, but I don't
think it's worth, you know,getting into fights over.
(15:27):
Yeah, injuring somebody.
Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Yeah.
Well, I'm thinking, you know,when it comes to anxiety, we
hear about the fight or flightsystem.
I think these people are havinga little extra dose of fight
when they're out in public andsomething inconveniences them,
um, and just being on edgealready because we're not used
to being out in public the sameway, we're not used to being
around people, um, and then notaddressing that properly, it's
(15:52):
going to come out um in a Iguess what we call like a
maladaptive way.
SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
Um, so I know you'd kind of mentioned this a little
bit with your caseload influx.
Do you feel that some peoplejust reached out to you only to
have somebody to talk to?
And then you you talk to themand you're like, well, you don't
seem extra extra depressed orextra anxious, like, and it just
was like, oh, you need a friend.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
I mean, was that any of your I think to some extent,
yeah.
Um, you know, generallyeverybody has something that
they're working on, but it'sonce again just the facet of
having someone that you can talkto that's just for you, and not
having to worry about um burningout a family or f family member
or friend.
(16:41):
So yeah, definitely have peoplethat don't come in for a
specific reason, but they'relike, I think I just want to
have a therapist.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
I think I just need somebody.
Yeah.
Which makes sense.
And I also um I've personallythought, I guess until the
pandemic, that um depression andanxiety were all biological
traits.
I mean, this is again me and mystupidity.
Um, but you know, I I've alwaysbeen the person that's like, you
know, it's you can go through abad situation and not
(17:09):
necessarily get anxiety from itor depression.
And then going through this andfor this prolonged period of
time has really m made me seethat like a as you know, a
situation can cause depression.
I know that's you're like, yeah,I know.
But I mean, really, yeah, asituation can can change you
(17:30):
chemically and physically.
That's astonishing to me.
SPEAKER_00 (17:34):
Well, you know, we tend to feel like we can get
through anything.
You know, people have had itworse, people have been through
worse.
It's a thing I hear all thetime.
And so I think it is surprisingwhen we find ourselves like on
the other end of that.
Like, oh, you know, I'm reallynot myself anymore.
I'm not sleeping well, and youknow, I have no energy, I have
no and it's amazing how thosethings can sneak up when you
(17:58):
least expect it.
So don't feel bad about notknowing that.
It's you know, it's I guess partof our constitution in a lot of
ways.
Like we can get through this,right?
People have gone through worse,but it really takes its toll.
SPEAKER_03 (18:12):
What do you say to people who have been fully
vaccinated?
You know, they've you knowstayed away from people, stayed
in their house, they did all theright things, now that things
are opening up, they still havethis anxiety about you know,
going out not wearing a mask,even though they don't need to,
going around people or evenhaving people over their house.
(18:32):
What do you say to people thatare kind of struggling with now
that things are opening back up?
SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
People like me is what you're saying.
People like me.
What would you say to peoplelike that?
SPEAKER_03 (18:39):
Well, I didn't I didn't go there, but you know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
So it's even hard to sit in that chair and be like,
well, this is pathological, youknow?
Because it's hard to say likewhat's like agoraphobia or
what's an anxiety disorder, andwhat's like somebody being extra
cautious because we getdifferent information all the
time.
So I think that's been a majorstruggle trying to help people
navigate while not knowingbecause it's hard to tell where
(19:10):
that line is.
And I feel like even thoughthings are opening up and seem
safer now, we've got this deltavariant and other, you know,
other things are coming intoplay where you know it's it's
really a thin line.
And it's really hard to tellsometimes if I should be pushing
somebody to do more or pushingthem to address like anxiety and
(19:31):
avoidance, or you know, if it'sjust a natural variation of the
reaction that we have to thisvery bizarre situation that
we're in now.
SPEAKER_02 (19:40):
And I think to me, it's it's changed me as a
person.
I used to be more like I used togo to parties and feel energized
from them, and now like havingexperienced being in my house
for a year, I like it.
And I am like, I don't maybewant to go out, but you you
know, I mean, I'm still livingwith a a daughter and a husband
(20:00):
who are like, let's go.
You know, so I mean I know I'mtrying to relearn you know what
old Kristen was like, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (20:10):
Right, yeah, we've never had that taken away for
such a long time.
SPEAKER_02 (20:13):
Yeah, yeah.
The length of time I think makessuch a difference.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
It does.
And we spent so much time beingfearful and avoidant of other
people because they could becarrying this disease, and now
we're like, oh, I'm justsupposed to be comfortable being
in this crowded airport, youknow.
SPEAKER_02 (20:28):
Right, and but and also avoiding um, you know,
avoiding people because of thepandemic, you also avoided
people you don't like.
You know what I mean?
So, right, like my life short,maybe I won't go to that brunch
with because I don't really feelgood doing it.
(20:50):
And and COVID was a really goodexcuse to avoid those things.
It really was.
You know, or like familyreunions, right?
No, I love my family.
SPEAKER_03 (21:02):
It's a great time to re-evaluate because I know a lot
of people, including myself, youknow, when you're locked in your
house for a whole year, you'renot really going out, you're not
doing anything, you know, youkind of evaluate what's
important.
And sometimes things that youlook at don't look the same
anymore.
You know, it's like, hey, I'mdoing this, you know, you get
(21:24):
up, you go to work, come home,take care of your family, go to
bed, then get up, do it all overagain.
And you know, you get to a pointthat's like, okay, life's gotta
be more than this, this.
You know what I mean?
And a lot of times you get tothat point where you evaluate
things.
So even though, yeah, it was itwas hell going through that
year, but I think it wasself-reflection, in my opinion,
(21:47):
you know, for a lot of people,as far as re-evaluating what
they really want to do.
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
And I think that that take on it though, I mean,
I think personally shows, Imean, especially I think for you
and I, because I know you and Iwell enough, uh, that I mean it
shows how good we had it throughthe pandemic, also.
Because I mean, I know anxiety'sreally flared for people who,
you know, lost their jobs orwhose loved ones, you know, got
(22:13):
got COVID, you know.
And so I mean, I really thinkthat contributed to the you
know, financial loss and and youknow, losing a family member
really contributed to people'sdepression and anxiety, and you
know, I the the uh being stuckat home is almost the best part
of the worst of it, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (22:35):
Well, I tell you, this was a great great segment.
We had so much fun with you,Jamie.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for being here.
Hopefully you come back.
Absolutely all right then.
Well, everyone else, don't gotoo far.
We're going to take anotherquick break.
Welcome back, everyone.
We had a fantastic show.
We had so much fun with JamieHarris.
SPEAKER_02 (22:58):
American Ardec.
I feel like we we unpacked a lotof things.
Psychologists.
SPEAKER_03 (23:04):
Yes.
Uh we went over a lot of stuff,had a lot of great fun.
Um, I want to make sure that Iwant to thank uh the American
Legion for letting us have ourshow there.
We were really appreciative.
SPEAKER_02 (23:16):
Check us out on Instagram, YouTube, or Facebook,
Thursday Conversations, and alsoon Cam TV.
SPEAKER_03 (23:23):
All right, everyone.
Well, everyone, enjoy the restof your day, and don't forget to
have those Thursdayconversations.
Take care, everyone.
Bye bye.
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