October 1, 2022 • 45 mins
Why did Thomas Edison plant a banyan tree sapling at his winter residence in 1926? You guessed it, there was an experiment involved. Native to India, it is now a massive, beloved tree at the Edison & Ford Winter Estates in Fort Myers, Florida. While this isn’t an “escape from the lab” story, it is sort of a “took over the lab” story! Debbie Hughes, the Horticultural Director, explains what happened. Also, we dig into the mythology of fig trees - specifically “strangler” figs - and their critical ecological and cultural importance with rainforest ecologist and author Mike Shanahan.
Guests
Debbie Hughes
Horticultural Director, Edison & Ford Winter Estates
https://www.edisonfordwinterestates.org/
Mike Shanahan
Author, Gods, Wasps, and Stranglers: The Secret History and Redemptive Future of Fig Trees
https://underthebanyan.blog/about/
Tree Story Short
Sashil Sachdeva
Vadodara, India
Podcast Consultant
Martha Douglas-Osmundson
Music
"Sleepy Head," Alchemorph
Theme Music
Diccon Lee, www.deeleetree.com
Artwork
Dahn Hiuni, www.dahnhiuni.com/home
Website
thisoldtree.show
Transcripts available.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Douglas Still (00:00):
Today is Saturday, October 1, 2022. Four
days ago, a category fourhurricane named Ian made nearly
direct landfall on Fort Myers,Florida. It was one of the most
powerful storms to ever hit thestate, and it caused major
devastation and some loss oflife. This episode of this old
(00:20):
tree was scheduled to drop thatsame day and our subject, the
Edison Banyan Tree, is in FortMyers. Obviously, I couldn't
release the episode withoutknowing the fate of the banyan
or knowing if our friends thatcare for it at the Edison & Ford
Winter Estates are okay. Well, Ican report that the famous
banyan tree did survive withonly some broken branches, that
(00:42):
the buildings at the museum areall intact and in good
condition, and everyone is fine.
I'm so happy to hear this news,and I thought you listeners
would want to know too. To thepeople of Fort Myers and
southern Florida in general, wewish you a speedy recovery as
you rebuild. You are in ourthoughts. So without further
ado, here's our original episodein its entirety.
(01:08):
Was there ever a time in yourlife when others defined you in
a certain way, but deep down youknew you were something else?
Something much more? Maybe youwere new, maybe you were
different. They picked a lanefor you, and you were passed by.
This could describe the EdisonBanyan Tree as it began its life
in Fort Myers, Florida in the1920s. It was an unassuming
(01:30):
sapling from India planted byThomas Edison at his winter
estate, one of thousands ofplants he experimented with
there. But soon its geneticpotential busted loose and its
inner fabulousness could not becontained. It is now an enormous
beloved fig tree. Yep, it's atype of fig. And this "not so
gentle giant" is the mainattraction at the Edison & Ford
(01:53):
Winter Estates historic site.
Why did Edison plant the banyantree? I'll be speaking to Debbie
Hughes, the HorticulturalDirector to find out. Looking
back to India, what are itsmyths and what's its true
nature? What's its place in thehistory of civilization? Guest
Mike Shanahan will explain. He'sa rainforest ecologist, blogger
and author of the wonderful 2016book, Gods, Wasps and
(02:16):
Stranglers, The Secret Historyand Redemptive Future of Fig
Trees. Join me as I discover thestory of the Edison Banyan Tree.
I'm Doug Still, and welcome toThis Old Tree.
This Old Tree song - Dee L (02:34):
This old tree, standing here for more
than four centuries. Wonder whatyou'd say to me.....
Douglas Still (02:46):
When walking between the parking lot and the
outbuildings at the Edison &Ford Winter Estates, visitors
can't help but notice a shadystand of trees that seems
inviting. But it's not a standat all. It's a single tree -
our Edison Banyan. It covers anentire acre, a series of
interconnected branchessupported by hundreds of aerial
(03:08):
roots that have formed intotrunks in their own right after
reaching the ground long ago.
There are many banyan trees insouthern Florida growing in a
variety of places, but this isthe biggest, and one of the
first. I had the pleasure oftalking with Debbie Hughes, the
longtime Horticultural Directorat Edison Ford, about the
history of this tree and whatpeople love about it. Debbie,
welcome to the show!
Debbie Hughes (03:32):
Well, thank you, Douglas. I am so excited to talk
about trees.
Douglas Still (03:38):
I was wondering if you could just describe where
you work and what are the Edison& Ford Winter Estates?
Debbie Hughes (03:44):
Well, it's in a historical neighborhood. Of
course, Fort Myers was a smalllittle community about 300
people when Edison moved herefor the winter. His doctor told
him that he needed to get out ofthe cold in New Jersey where his
lab was, so he ended up cominghere throughout his older years
(04:05):
and Mina his wife was 20 yearsyounger than him so she lived
longer and donated the propertyof 20 acres to the at the City
of Fort Myers. So because ofthat, we have this wonderful
property, with his old homes andgardens that he experimented
with here, and he had a lab andwe now have the museum. It's a
(04:27):
wonderful place to visit.
Douglas Still (04:29):
And Henry Ford was next door.
Debbie Hughes (04:30):
Yeah, Henry Ford came - he was his friend.
Basically, Henry Ford worked forEdison at one of his companies,
and they met at a conference.
And Henry Ford said to Thomasthat he was developing this new
car - it was called thequadricycle. It was basically a
bicycle. So Edison, as always,would say something to him like,
(04:53):
"What are you waiting for? Getto work," because that's the way
Edison would think. And so, Fordbecame really good friends with
them. He bought a house nextdoor. And when he bought the
house next door, they wouldtravel together, going camping,
and they loved to be together. Imean, they were basically,
Edison was like a father.
Douglas Still (05:15):
Well, this tree was brought to my attention by a
friend whose family is from theFort Myers area. Yeah, it was
like, wow, you've got to seethis tree. I haven't been there,
but I saw pictures, and it'sspectacular. I was wondering if
you could create a picture forour listeners, sort of in our
mind's eye, of what the treelooks like, how it fits into the
(05:39):
surroundings, and what it feelslike to stand next to it, or
better yet, underneath it.
Debbie Hughes (05:45):
Yeah, it's why people come to visit, honestly.
People will just drive up, youdon't even have to pay to see
it, you drive up. It's off thishistorical neighborhood, a very
amazing street called McGregorBoulevard. The Boulevard is
amazing to begin with. It's allpalms lining the street, and
(06:07):
when they turn into the parkinglot, they literally - their jaw
drops. Because the tree is -it's more than a tree. It's an
event. I have seen a lot oftrees in my life. I just came
back from the Portland andSeattle area, and you know how
their trees are amazing, too.
They have redwoods and cedarsand pines that are large, I
(06:31):
mean, we're talking reallylarge, to the point where you
can't really see how far up theygo. Looks like into the sky,
completely. This tree is totallydifferent. This tree - imagine
one central trunk, and youcouldn't even wrap your arms
around the central trunk, you'dhave to have three or four
people to wrap your arms aroundthe central trunk. But that's
(06:51):
not all of it. Once you get pastthat - the tree just keeps
walking. So imagine you have acentral trunk, and then you got
arms and the arms are so longthat they've dropped down aerial
roots. And after they droppeddown the aerial roots, it takes,
(07:11):
I don't know, five years forthose aerial - they're like
strings, they become a trunkthemselves, where you can barely
wrap your arms around them. Andit just keeps doing this all
around one acre. So it's a bigcircular tree...
Douglas Still (07:29):
I love that phrase that the tree's walking.
Unknown (07:33):
It's 393 inches in circumference. So if you took a
measuring tape and surroundedthe whole, I guess you would say
all the trunks because there's,there's quite a few, I would say
there's about 50 trunks.
[Amazing] That's 393 feet. Andthen the tree is 74 feet tall,
(07:55):
which is not extreme, right? Butit's a lot wider, it's a lot
wider than it is tall. So whenyou think about it, it's not
immense because it's tall, likea Sequoia or redwood would be,
it is immense because it justkeeps going, and it just keeps
walking. And to me, that's whatmakes it so much fun.
Douglas Still (08:19):
What's it like to walk underneath it, or through
it?
Debbie Hughes (08:22):
Well, it's it's difficult because the trunks are
like elephant feet. So each eachtrunk that attaches to these
branches. You kind of getwrapped up in them, you could
trip really easily. So you haveto be careful where you're
walking. Of course, it's 10degrees cooler. Say, for
(08:44):
instance it's 95 here today, ifyou're underneath that banyan
tree, it's a 80's and you feellike you're cool compared to the
rest, if you're in the sun. Andit's so shaded, it's like a
home. You can literally liveunder there. The only the only
thing that's really hard, Doug,is the fruit. It's nasty. It's
(09:07):
not edible to humans. I'm surethere are some animals that do
eat it. It's Ficus benghalensis.
It's from India. We don't haveprobably the animals that would
eat it, not even I don't evennotice the birds eating it. But
I do notice that it stinks andit makes a mess. But if that's
all we have to put up with,that's not too bad. If you stood
(09:29):
still long enough, it could growaround you and it would pick you
up. I do notice people have donetricks like that in other places
and the aerial roots will attachto bicycles. It will attach to
furniture, whatever.
Douglas Still (09:48):
So let's get to that origin story. [Yeah] Why
was the tree planted and whatwas going on?
Debbie Hughes (09:55):
The tree was planted simply because he was
doing rubber research. So hethought we need to have a rubber
source - during World War I theyhad a shortage. So he figured,
let's come up with a source thatwe can grow all over the United
States, and we could make surewe don't have that shortage.
Douglas Still (10:16):
And that might have also been from the
influence of Henry Ford.
Debbie Hughes (10:21):
Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, with the
tires. They had an arrangementit was called the Edison Botanic
Research Laboratory. And theytested 17,000 plants. Plants
were sent from all over theworld. And there was like an
urban legend that HarveyFirestone brought a little tree,
(10:42):
a banyan tree from India. It'ssince been proven wrong. So he
thought this tree has that whitelatex in it, so you could slash
the tree trunk, and you'd getthis white latex substance out
- which it's actually a rubber -but Edison, you know, the way he
was he was an inventor, not justin mechanical things. He
(11:05):
believed in doing inventionswith practical plant material,
too. So he tested all theseplants, he came up with
goldenrod. And you know why hecame up with goldenrod? When he
ground the goldenrod plants, 12%of it was rubber latex. So any
part of the world here in UnitedStates could grow goldenrod,
(11:27):
right? I mean, it's a nativewildflower or weed, some people
say. Every part of the country.
And he was basically thinkingyou could grow it just like you
grow cotton or corn or anythingelse. But the banyon tree was
his first, second, third choicemaybe. But then again, he
realized it couldn't grow in anyother part except for South
Florida.
Douglas Still (11:47):
So this was one plant among 17,000. Did you say?
Debbie Hughes (11:52):
Yeah, they started from everywhere. And
they had a research garden herein South Florida and a research
garden up in New York. And thenNew Jersey, both. Yes.
Douglas Still (12:01):
So they were hoping that this tree would have
a utilitarian purpose and becomea workhorse.
Debbie Hughes (12:07):
Right, and they continue to do this research,
even after he passed away in1931. And they closed it down, I
think around 1938, because theycame up with the the synthetic
rubber.
Douglas Still (12:18):
So what was planted around it? Was it in a
row of other types of trees?
Debbie Hughes (12:24):
It was in a row, like like you had an orchard,
but the banyan was unique. Idon't know why he put the banyan
where he put it. He must haveknown. It's almost like he went
in the future and came back.
[Doug laughs] It's got to gohere, you know, because where he
put it is the place whereeverything happens.
Douglas Still (12:44):
Right, it was in the center of it all, [the
center of it all] and it tookover.
Debbie Hughes (12:49):
Yes, we have pictures of just this little
teeny seedling about four feettall. And now when you see it,
you cannot believe it's the sametree.
Douglas Still (12:58):
We're going to come back to Debbie, but all
this had me thinking I need tolearn more about banyan trees.
As I mentioned before the banyanis a type of fig tree, which led
me to Mike Shanahan's wonderfulbook about the critical role of
fig species in tropical climatesworldwide. We're very lucky that
he agreed to come on the show.
Mike Shanahan is a freelancewriter and editor, with a
(13:22):
doctorate in rainforest ecologyfrom the University of Leeds. He
writes a blog called Under theBanyan, Stories About Us and
Nature, which focuses on climatechange and biodiversity loss.
But he's most well known for hisresearch and writing about fig
tree species worldwide, and in2016, he wrote a book called
(13:43):
Gods Wasps and Stranglers, TheSecret History and Redemptive
Future of Fig Trees. Thisfocused on the many ways that
fig trees have shaped humanevolution and civilization, both
physically and through theimagination and through myth. So
Mike, welcome to the show.
Mike Shanahan (14:06):
Thanks for having me, Doug. I'm looking forward to
talking to you.
Douglas Still (14:09):
So, how did you come to study fig trees and how
did they capture yourimagination?
Mike Shanahan (14:15):
I started on this journey in 1996 when I was doing
a master's project at theUniversity of Leeds, and I went
to Borneo for about a monthwhere I was working in a
national park there. And theNational Park I was in had about
80 different species of figtrees and huge variety within
(14:37):
those 80 species. And my projectwas looking at how different fig
trees use different tactics toattract their seed dispersing
animals. So, in terms of howthey produce their figs, where
they produce them, what colorthey are, whether they smell or
they don't smell, and I waslooking at how different types
(14:58):
of animals eat different typesof figs.
Douglas Still (15:00):
So I was impressed by how many different
fig species there are. Ficus isthe genus, what are the types of
fig trees that everyone knows.
Mike Shanahan (15:11):
So everyone's probably familiar with Ficus
carica, which is the so callededible fig. This is the one that
originated in the sort ofMediterranean area and has now
been planted as a domestic cropin about 70 countries. And
within that species alone, youhave, you know, many, many
hundreds of varieties thatfarmers have developed over
(15:34):
thousands of years. So that'sthe common one that everyone is
familiar with. Some of the figtrees are like that, they're a
typical tree, you know, astraight trunk and some branches
and some leaves. Many others dodifferent things. So you have
some that are just shrubs thatare very low lying, you have
some that are creepers thatclimb up onto other trees to
grow. And then you have thestrangler figs, which are some
(15:57):
of the most famous ones, whichoften start out in life high up
on another tree where their seedis deposited, and then they send
their roots downwards to reachthe earth and create a stable
scaffold.
Douglas Still (16:08):
What's the species that's the common house
plant?
Mike Shanahan (16:13):
So that's probably Ficus benjamina. That's
the so called weeping fig, whichin your house, maybe a couple of
feet tall, but in the rainforest, it can be 30 meters,
with a million figs on it andfeeding 30 or more species of
birds and mammals. That is akind of strangler fig in the
wild but it can also grow upfrom the ground. And then I
(16:36):
think a few more species thatyou find in households these
days include Ficus elastica,which is the the Indian rubber
tree, and Ficus lyrata, thefiddleleaf fig, which is a
increasingly popular houseplant.
Douglas Still (16:50):
When you were in Borneo you studied Ficus
aurantiaca. Did I pronouncedthat correctly?
Mike Shanahan (16:56):
Yes, more or less, yeah. [Doug laughs]
Douglas Still (16:59):
Could you describe it and maybe your first
experience when you saw it?
Mike Shanahan (17:05):
So this is a species that is of a type called
root climbers, and they startout in life on the forest floor
where a seed germinates, andthen they grow up a big tree.
They develop a very stout stemthat grows upwards and from that
grow from some very smallleaves, about the size of a
(17:27):
thumbnail. And as the fig growsupwards, it produces its figs
which can be about the size of atennis ball, big red orange
figs. And when you have fixedthat big, you need a big animal
to eat them and they'reparticularly favored by monkeys.
This is a species I encountereda few times in the rainforest.
(17:50):
But one time I was up a tree, Ihad gone looking for these figs,
and I saw some from a distanceand luckily there was a tree
nearby that had a ladderattached all the way up to it up
the top because some otherresearchers have been studying
that tree for other reasons. Andso I climbed this ladder. When I
say a ladder is actually aseries of ladders one on top of
(18:12):
the other going up very high.
Foolishly, I hadn't taken mysafety harness and I wasn't
clipped in, I didn't follow theprotocol and I just was
desperate to get hold of thesefigs. So I climbed and climbed
and climbed. As I went up, Iencountered a snake up the tree
as well, so I had to reach pastthe venomous snake to get the
(18:33):
figs I wanted.
Douglas Still (18:37):
This very "Garden of Eden."
Mike Shanahan (18:39):
[Laughs] Yeah, there was a lot of temptation
going on. But the figsthemselves, they are quite large
and I had to sort of stuffedthem inside the the clothes I
was wearing so I could get themback down to safety.
Douglas Still (18:53):
Well, in your book you write so beautifully
and bring us there, you know inthe readers mind, and I just
want to read a passage from whenyou're in the forest, because
it's so good. "Each time Istepped into that forest, I
encountered another world. Itwas hot and humid and full of
mosquitoes. The forest's paletteof greens and browns flooded my
(19:15):
vision. Countless trees crowdedin on me, vines crept and
corkscrewed their way skywardsat every possible angle. Some
were as thick as a thigh.
Strange sounds tricked my ears,strange shapes moved then
vanished. There were mustyscents whose sources I never
found. Most of the trees werejust a few centimetres thick,
(19:37):
but were so numerous I couldonly take a couple of steps off
a trail before hitting one.
Others were giants as broad as asmall car and none was as
spookily beautiful as the firstfree standing strangler fig I
saw there. Its host tree hadlong since died and rotted away,
(19:58):
and the stranglers roots nowformed a scaffold with a hollow
core. I stepped inside andlooked up. shafts of light shone
down at me from far above. ThisFicus kerkhovenii became my
favorite landmark in the forest.
Mike Shanahan (20:14):
Yeah, because it's just such an amazing thing
to come across in the forestwhen you're wandering around
this landscape of trees, trees,trees and trees and then
suddenly you come across thisthing that looks like molten wax
that is frozen in shape and isunlike anything else. It being
one of the strangler figs, itwas one that was particularly
attractive to lots of differenttypes of wildlife. So it was a
(20:38):
great one to go and watch atdawn when the animals come to
feed. But as I mentioned in thatextract that you read it it was
also a landmark and in theforest it's great when you're
wandering around a forest tohave these things that you spot
every now and again that remindyou of where you are and and how
to get home again.
Douglas Still (20:57):
Could you describe the strangler fig in
more detail just...could youdescribe the processes that are
happening from germination to itbecoming a full grown tree?
Mike Shanahan (21:09):
Okay, so most of these strangler figs are
dispersed either by fruit batsor by birds or monkeys, or
various other animals that arein the forest and they live in
the canopy. So when they poop,they poop out their seeds quite
high up. And if one of theseseeds happens to fall in the
right place, which is the crotchof a tree where the branch joins
(21:32):
the trunk, it will germinatethere and start to send down
some roots. These are calledaerial roots. So the tiny fig
seedling is way up in thecanopy, it's got a couple of
leaves to start with, and theseroots start descending downwards
and they hug the host tree andhead on downwards towards the
(21:53):
ground. Once they tap into thesoil down below, then the tree
can start to do two things. Itstarts to expand above where it
can produce many more leaves tocapture the sunlight. But it
also starts to produce many moreof these aerial roots which can
fuse with each other, they cansplit they can form a basket
work. So they form a structurethat's very stable so that even
(22:17):
if the host tree does die, thestrangler fig can then become
freestanding in many cases.
Douglas Still (22:23):
So it doesn't necessarily, in a tropical
forest situation, it can'treally survive by germinate - or
most can't survive - bygerminating in the soil because
there's a closed canopy. So ithas evolved to germinate up in
the canopy
Mike Shanahan (22:41):
Yes, beating the system really. Many of the
strangler fix can, in fact,germinate on on the ground, they
don't have to be on a on a hosttree but in a rain forest on the
ground is not a great place tobe because there's so much
competition and there's solittle light. So the strangler
figs really have reached thisdeal with the seed disbursing
(23:03):
animals and they pay them withthick flesh and then return they
get the seed dispersal service.
So they can very quickly get thebenefits of the light from the
canopy. And because of theirrapid growing roots, they then
get the benefits of the soil aswell, so they they get the best
of both worlds.
Douglas Still (23:21):
We're gonna come back to the banyan, but is the
banyan a strangler fig?
Mike Shanahan (23:26):
Yes, it is, it's one of the strangler figs and
perhaps the most impressive.
Douglas Still (23:31):
I was fascinated by the relationship between the
fig wasp and fig trees ingeneral. And that there's one?
There are many different typesof fig wasps, maybe as many as
there are fig tree species.
Could you describe therelationship? Y
Mike Shanahan (23:51):
Yeah, so it all hinges on the fig really. People
think a fig as a fruit, but it'snot really. It's like a hollow
ball lined with flowers. Andthose flowers don't really see
the light of day. They'repollinated only by fig wasps,
which are tiny little insects acouple of millimeters long. The
(24:11):
figs can only breed insidethose. So the fig wasps can only
breed inside the figs of theirpartner species. And in most
cases, each fig species has oneor maybe two fig wasp species
that do this service ofpollination for it. The female
fig wasp will be flying aroundand she's carrying eggs inside
(24:34):
her and she's got pollen on herfrom the fig in which she was
born. She has to find the rightkind of fig of the right species
at the right stage ofdevelopment. And when she does
so, she forces her way into thatfig through a tiny little hole
at the end of the fig. As shedoes her wings will be torn from
her body, her antennae will beripped off, and then she'll make
(24:55):
her way into the hollow part ofthe fig which will be completely
in darkness. And in there, shewill wander around on top of the
on the surface of the flowersthat are in there. She'll be
pollinating those flowers andlaying her eggs in some of them.
Douglas Still (25:10):
I'd like to switch to India now because our
banyan is from India. And firstI'd like to talk about Ficus
religiosa, and the mythologybehind that tree, the origins of
Indian culture and early peoplein India, specifically, I guess,
in the Indus Valley. Why was thetree important, and why did it
(25:33):
become such an important part ofa culture?
Mike Shanahan (25:36):
Well, Ficus religiosa is another one of
these strangler figs. Andgenerally these stranglers tend
to be very large trees, theytend to be very impressive to
look at because of their, theway they form and their aerial
roots that just look so eerieand strange. But also, they're
(25:57):
very important for theecosystems in which you find
them because they feed so manyanimals and those animals
disperse the seeds of many otherplant species. So they're
ecologically important and earlyhumans wherever they have
encountered strangler figs haveput them into their mythologies
and stories and have createdtaboos against cutting down fig
(26:21):
trees, which you find in inAfrica and Asia and the Pacific
and many other places. So Ficusreligiosa, in particular, has a
bit of this documented in theway that others others don't. So
the tree appears in ceramicseals that were made by the
people in the Indus Valley aboutthree and a half thousand years
(26:43):
ago. They depict what looks likea god or goddess figure within a
tree and somebody appearing tomake some sort of offerings for
it, suggesting that this treehad religious value all the way
back then. And since then, Ficusreligiosa, you know, has had
many important roles in othercultures that have come after
(27:07):
the Indus Valley people lived,including in Hinduism and
Buddhism. The tree that theBuddha sat beneath, as he
attained enlightenment was astrangler fig of the species
Ficus religiosa. It is importantfor many, many less well known
religions and local ethnicgroups across India. And in many
(27:31):
cases, people will use this treeas a place of prayer, a place to
particularly pray for thingsrelated to fertility and
longevity and a peaceful longlife.
Douglas Still (27:47):
And even just a meeting place. I mean, under the
shade of these this enormoustree, it's, you know, of value.
Mike Shanahan (27:55):
Exactly. These trees, the banyan in particular
has been used as a shade treefor thousands of years. It was
planted along roads to giveshelter to people traveling
between towns thousands of yearsago. It is a tree around which
settlements have sprung up. Manyvillages have got a banyan at
(28:16):
their center where the localgovernance takes place, local
village council takes placeunder the banyan tree, and the
Bombay Stock Exchange wasfounded underneath a banyan tree
in the city now called Mumbai.
So across India and other partsof South Asia, banyan trees and
other kinds of strangler figshave often been center points of
culture, of commerce, ofconversation. You know, these
(28:40):
things are part of the structureof life.
Douglas Still (28:45):
And as you state the fig tree around the world is
part of the creation myth ofalmost every major religion and
other religions. I'd like toread this one passage that you
wrote about, having to do withBuddha, and setting the scene,
the young Prince SiddharthaGautama was on a six year
(29:08):
journey to find enlightenment,and he ended up under a Ficus
religiosa. And you write, "Thetree belonged to a species
scientists today called Ficusreligiosa, the sacred fig. The
species grows up to 30 meterstall and has smooth gray bark
and small red figs. Itshand-sized, heart-shaped leaves
(29:28):
are shiny and stiff, with longpointed tips and long, slender
stalks. When the wind blows, theleaves tap against each other
and create a sound like the wingbeats of thousands of tiny
birds. This fluttering filledGautama's ears as he tried to
fathom the meaning of theuniverse." I just thought that
(29:50):
was so descriptive, and I lovehow you brought that sound in,
of that scene and that myth.
Mike Shanahan (29:57):
Thanks, I'm glad you like that. I find it fun
fascinating the idea of someonesitting for a long time under a
tree to meditate. But closingyour eyes and sitting under a
tree and just absorbing thesoundscape is a fun thing to do.
Douglas Still (30:10):
And I love the thought of those heavy, sort of
waxy leaves. I could hear thatand picture that. What are the
Hindu myths surrounding thebanyan tree?
Mike Shanahan (30:22):
The Banyan features in a great many myths.
And there are so many invites.
One of the famous ones is thatthe there's the idea of a cosmic
world tree which is a banyanthat is sort of upside down with
its roots in the heavens and thebranches descending down to
(30:42):
earth and bringing gifts tohumanity from the celestial
realm. And that's a story that'sbeen around for about two and a
half thousand years. It puts theBanyan right into the center of
Hinduism alongside other fiftrees. Another one is about the
(31:03):
idea that the the universetotally dissolves itself every,
you know, periodically and thenis reborn. So just in the idea
that you have reincarnation inHinduism, the idea also applies
to the universe as a whole thatit's it's periodically, a
(31:24):
dissolution happens and thenit's reborn. And one of the
stories says that the God Vishnuis there in this time floating
through the cosmos in the formof a baby resting on a banyan
leaf. And it's Vishnu who sortof inhales the whole of the
(31:44):
universe and then breathes itout again for its rebirth. There
are many stories about otherbanyan trees, there are some
that have grown up to be very,very large, these things are
truly huge. So...
Douglas Still (32:00):
This one's the largest of them all, right?
Mike Shanahan (32:02):
Yeah. So one of them there's a story about a
saint called Kabir who wasapparently brushing his teeth
with a bit of twig 550 years agoor so and he threw the twig away
after he'd finished andimmediately up sprang a huge
banyan tree as big as a forestcovering about a hectare of
(32:25):
land. And this tree, you can goto it now you can go to it
today. It's in Gujarat. It'scalled Kabirvad, and it's it was
on a silty island in the NarmadaRiver. Now, when a British
writer was there in the year1794, he describes this thing as
(32:46):
having about 350 trunks the sizeof an English oak tree and
another 3000 smaller trunks. Andthe idea that a tree can have
more than one trunk is alien, ofcourse to many people. But what
the banyan does as it grows, itsbranches grow out from the main
trunk of the tree. And as theygrow, they send down more of
(33:09):
these aerial roots that are thestrangler fig specialities. And
as these roots which are likehair, they're kind of like brown
matted hair, as they reach downto the ground, they thicken and
they become pillars that hold upthose big branches, allowing
them to grow even further out,and send yet more of these
pillar roots down. So from adistance, you can see what looks
(33:32):
like a small forest but it'sactually just a single tree
Douglas Still (33:34):
One tree [Yeah], and entire towns, or villages
sort of sprung up beneath abanyan tree.
Mike Shanahan (33:44):
Exactly. Yes, there's there's a city in India
called Vadodara, which means inthe heart of the banyan tree.
And that's how it grew up aroundone of these huge trees or
several of them. And if you gothere today, you'll find there
are many banyan trees there. Butthis Kabirvad, which is in
Gujarat, some people think itmay be the same tree that was
(34:08):
described by some of Alexanderthe Great's companions when he
reached India in the year 326BCE. So, you know, a couple of
thousand years ago,
Douglas Still (34:20):
They knew the fig that they had been eating back
in Greece and Macedonia. Butthen they discovered this banyan
tree.
Mike Shanahan (34:30):
Yes, and they even described it as being like
a fig even though the treeitself looks completely
different. They had lookedinside the figs and they had
made that connection thousandsof years ago, they sent these
descriptions back to, you know,back to Europe, and the Greek
philosopher Theophrastus, who'sconsidered to be the sort of
(34:51):
father of botany, he wrote uphis descriptions of the, you
know, the very firstdescriptions of Ficus in a
scientific sense. He named threespecies. It was the Ficus
carica, the edible one, thisbanyan from India which looks
totally different, and a thirdspecies, Ficus sycomorus, which
you find in in Egypt and otherparts of Africa as well. So he
(35:17):
joined the dots and named threespecies. But today, we know that
there are more than 800 of theFicus species.
Douglas Still (35:24):
They were just stunned when they saw this tree
for the first time.
Mike Shanahan (35:28):
They must have been one of the people in
Alexander's party said that 7000men could stand beneath this one
tree. [Incredible] for for along time, this was treated as
you know, hyperbole. And it's,you know, travelers tales from
an exotic land clearly they'vebeen exaggerated. But it's true,
you can get many more than that,actually. There's a there's
(35:50):
another tree and other banyan inSouthern India that 20,000
people can stand beneath. So,that was maybe a small one.
Douglas Still (35:59):
That's incredible. You've suggested
that awe is something thathumans have evolved to feel, and
that it's an evolutionaryadvantage. And fig trees are
intricately tied to thedevelopment of culture
worldwide, and then you sort oftie these together. Could you
(36:20):
talk about that a little bitmore?
Mike Shanahan (36:22):
Yes, I mean, awe is something that I've
experienced in rain forests acouple of times, and when you
experience something like that,it really does take your breath
away. And it changes it changesyou in many ways. And of course,
the strangler figs, for me arethe quintessential aspect of the
rainforest that transmits thatfeeling. Because when you walk
(36:45):
through a forest, and you comeacross these things, they do
blow your mind. They're they'reso big, they're so dominant,
and, you know, if you spend anytime trying to understand them
as well, then you understand howimportant they are.
Douglas Still (37:01):
Yeah, you write that, speaking of figs, their
power and fertility demand theattention and respect of every
human eye that sees them. Sowhat would you say, I mean, you
obviously have a great love forfig trees, including the banyan,
what meaning do you derive fromit? What meaning does it have
for you?
Mike Shanahan (37:22):
Well, studying ecology and fig trees in
particular, is a constantreminder that everything is
connected and understanding thatand appreciating that I think is
what studying figs has reallygiven to me. [music]
Douglas Still (37:38):
Whoa, we've come a long way and understanding the
special lineage of the littletree planted by Edison for latex
in 1926 in Fort Myers. But likethe tree grown from the
toothpick of the poet Kabir onan island in the Narmada River
back in the 15th century, andmany other banyans through time,
the Edison Banyan has grown tobe awe inspiring. That seems to
(38:00):
be its true purpose. It's aninspiring immigrant story, if
you will, but one that adds tothousands of years of stories
about fig trees, this time withan American twist. And as our
friend Debbie explains, the treeis quite a handful as it
continues to expand.
Debbie Hughes (38:16):
If we could get rid of the parking lot, and we
could let it walk some more? Andthat's what we're going to do.
It's just the kind of thingwhere we allow the tree to be
the boss, and that's one of thethings we have to allow. As far
as the buildings go, we doprotect it that direction, so it
doesn't destroy any buildingsfrom any kind of damage from
(38:37):
limbs falling. I have thearborist look at it, go up in a
lift, and we check to make sureeverything is good.
Douglas Still (38:45):
[And still one more surprising tale.] At some
point that tree started to growlike mad and start to spread.
Debbie Hughes (38:55):
Let me tell you about that. In order for them to
get it to spread more - it is achampion anyway, it is a
champion tree. It's the largestcontinental banyan tree in the
whole United States. Thedefinite improvement and making
it walk was done by a curator,Mr. Holgren. Now this is just an
(39:15):
urban legend also, but I kind ofbelieve this happened. Wherever
they wanted a new aerial rootsto fall down and and start into
the ground again. So they took ashot gun and they would shoot
holes exactly where they wantedthose aerial roots to start
growing [oh boy].And that put alittle stress on that getting
shot I'm sure. So it kind ofmaybe made the chemicals come
(39:40):
out and say okay, I need to putsome roots here. And you know,
in honesty, that's one of thereasons why we need to get rid
of the parking lot too becausewe need to do some more of those
shotgun shootings.
Douglas Still (39:52):
Oh, do you have a shotgun?
Debbie Hughes (39:56):
[Both laugh] I'm not gonna say we're gonna do
that. We're gonna see how itworks [okay] But that is an
urban legend for sure.
Douglas Still (40:03):
How does it inspire people, do you think?
What do they say after they seeit?
Debbie Hughes (40:09):
They say that they have gone to tree heaven.
You know, some people actuallyhave a bucket list of trees they
want to see. And that's one ofthem.
Douglas Still (40:20):
How many years have you worked there?
Debbie Hughes (40:22):
Sixteen.
Douglas Still (40:24):
After 16 years of working there, what meaning does
the tree have for you?
Debbie Hughes (40:30):
Job security for one [Doug laughs]. It is, to me
that tree is gonna go onforever. And I know that the
next person who takes overthey're gonna love it just as
much as me.
Douglas Still (40:45):
Well Debbie, you've been a charming guest on
This Old Tree. I reallyappreciate you taking the time
to talk about the Edison Banyan,and I wish you well in caring
for the tree [and keeping ithealthy] keeping it healthy and
expanding. Thank you for comingon the show.
Debbie Hughes (41:04):
Thanks Doug, you're the best.
Douglas Still (41:07):
Once again, I'd like to thank Debbie Hughes for
coming on the show, and thankthe Edison & Ford Winter Estates
in the city of Fort Myers forallowing us to feature the
Edison Banyan Tree. I'd alsolike to thank Mike Shanahan for
an incredibly engagingdiscussion about fig trees. His
book, Gods, Wasps, and Figs is afantastic read and I can't
recommend it enough. I've listedit in the show notes. In early
(41:30):
October, I'm going to getPatreon up and running and
Patreon subscribers will be ableto get the full interviews with
Debbie and Mike. I'm Doug Still,and if you liked the show,
please subscribe and tune inevery other week for more human
stories about heritage trees.
You can find us on Facebook andInstagram as well. And if you'd
like to stick around, we haveour very first listener
submitted Tree Story Short bySushil Sachdeva from Vadodara,
(41:53):
India about a special mangotree. See you next time!
This Old Tree song - Dee L (42:00):
This old tree, standing here for more
than four centuries. Wonder whatyou'd say if you could talk to
me about what it's like to be,,this old tree. Shadow and shade,
(42:23):
kids down the block are sellinglemonade. Send them down to cool
breezes sweet cascade, tailormade by this old tree. In
1600...
Sashil Sachdeva (42:43):
Hi, I am Sushil Sachdeva, a 61 year old
agriculturist from India. I'mdelighted to share with this
august audience the story of agiant sized mango tree, which my
family is so passionate andpossessive about. It is located
in the backyard of our familyfarmhouse adjoining a lemon
(43:06):
orchard, and a poultry farm in avillage at Vadodara, a city in
the western part of India. Notby design, it actually fell into
our lap as the most nondescriptobject standing amidst the woods
on the periphery of a parcel ofagricultural land that I
purchased about 15 years ago.
Somehow, I happen to spot thathere I was, blessed with a
(43:31):
natural gem in its most rusticform, which my predecessors on
this land, being people oflimited resources and meager
means had no eye for. In thefollowing couple of years, I
went about redesigning thelandscape of the two acre area
around this tree, and now thereit stands as a royalty estimated
(43:54):
to be 60 to 70 years of age 70feet tall with a crown diameter
of 50 feet. So majesticallyoverlooking the entire 10 acre
plot, with beautifully manicuredlawns and the family farmhouse
tucked almost underneath on oneside and the seasonal rivulet
(44:15):
flowing on the other. Every yearin February or March, with a
bated breath, we wait for theappearance of flowers, which
then convert to pea sized fruitsin a month's time. Usually,
around the first week of Junethe fruits are harvested. Being
a native cultivar and managedfully with organic manures, the
(44:39):
produce varies between 800 to1500 number of fruits per year.
These are six to seven incheslong, kidney shaped green
mangoes each weighing over apound. These precious little
little bounties are not forsale. They are meant to be
(44:59):
devoured by family and friends,located even as far as a
thousand miles away. Neatlypacked into 20 pound parcels,
they are shipped away to reachrespective destinations within
five to seven days, by when theyhave ripened into golden yellow,
(45:20):
sweet smelling mangoes with adistinctive aroma. We are still
searching for a name for thisrarest of rare cultivars. But I
assure you that all those whohave been fortunate to taste
even a single bite vouch thatthey haven't ever come across
anything similar. No wonder my80 year old aunt from Delhi over
(45:45):
a phone call the other day,almost admonishingly demanded
that I send her a largerconsignment the next year. Yeah,
I realized that she, with afamily of four, had just
consumed only 60 of them thisyear. Thanks for your time. Bye
then.
Douglas Still (46:09):
Thank you Sushil, and have a good day everyone.
Today is Saturday, October 1, 2022. Four
days ago, a category fourhurricane named Ian made nearly
direct landfall on Fort Myers,Florida. It was one of the most
powerful storms to ever hit thestate, and it caused major
devastation and some loss oflife. This episode of this old
(00:20):
tree was scheduled to drop thatsame day and our subject, the
Edison Banyan Tree, is in FortMyers. Obviously, I couldn't
release the episode withoutknowing the fate of the banyan
or knowing if our friends thatcare for it at the Edison & Ford
Winter Estates are okay. Well, Ican report that the famous
banyan tree did survive withonly some broken branches, that
(00:42):
the buildings at the museum areall intact and in good
condition, and everyone is fine.
I'm so happy to hear this news,and I thought you listeners
would want to know too. To thepeople of Fort Myers and
southern Florida in general, wewish you a speedy recovery as
you rebuild. You are in ourthoughts. So without further
ado, here's our original episodein its entirety.
(01:08):
Was there ever a time in yourlife when others defined you in
a certain way, but deep down youknew you were something else?
Something much more? Maybe youwere new, maybe you were
different. They picked a lanefor you, and you were passed by.
This could describe the EdisonBanyan Tree as it began its life
in Fort Myers, Florida in the1920s. It was an unassuming
(01:30):
sapling from India planted byThomas Edison at his winter
estate, one of thousands ofplants he experimented with
there. But soon its geneticpotential busted loose and its
inner fabulousness could not becontained. It is now an enormous
beloved fig tree. Yep, it's atype of fig. And this "not so
gentle giant" is the mainattraction at the Edison & Ford
(01:53):
Winter Estates historic site.
Why did Edison plant the banyantree? I'll be speaking to Debbie
Hughes, the HorticulturalDirector to find out. Looking
back to India, what are itsmyths and what's its true
nature? What's its place in thehistory of civilization? Guest
Mike Shanahan will explain. He'sa rainforest ecologist, blogger
and author of the wonderful 2016book, Gods, Wasps and
(02:16):
Stranglers, The Secret Historyand Redemptive Future of Fig
Trees. Join me as I discover thestory of the Edison Banyan Tree.
I'm Doug Still, and welcome toThis Old Tree.
This Old Tree song - Dee L (02:34):
This old tree, standing here for more
than four centuries. Wonder whatyou'd say to me.....
Douglas Still (02:46):
When walking between the parking lot and the
outbuildings at the Edison &Ford Winter Estates, visitors
can't help but notice a shadystand of trees that seems
inviting. But it's not a standat all. It's a single tree -
our Edison Banyan. It covers anentire acre, a series of
interconnected branchessupported by hundreds of aerial
(03:08):
roots that have formed intotrunks in their own right after
reaching the ground long ago.
There are many banyan trees insouthern Florida growing in a
variety of places, but this isthe biggest, and one of the
first. I had the pleasure oftalking with Debbie Hughes, the
longtime Horticultural Directorat Edison Ford, about the
history of this tree and whatpeople love about it. Debbie,
welcome to the show!
Debbie Hughes (03:32):
Well, thank you, Douglas. I am so excited to talk
about trees.
Douglas Still (03:38):
I was wondering if you could just describe where
you work and what are the Edison& Ford Winter Estates?
Debbie Hughes (03:44):
Well, it's in a historical neighborhood. Of
course, Fort Myers was a smalllittle community about 300
people when Edison moved herefor the winter. His doctor told
him that he needed to get out ofthe cold in New Jersey where his
lab was, so he ended up cominghere throughout his older years
(04:05):
and Mina his wife was 20 yearsyounger than him so she lived
longer and donated the propertyof 20 acres to the at the City
of Fort Myers. So because ofthat, we have this wonderful
property, with his old homes andgardens that he experimented
with here, and he had a lab andwe now have the museum. It's a
(04:27):
wonderful place to visit.
Douglas Still (04:29):
And Henry Ford was next door.
Debbie Hughes (04:30):
Yeah, Henry Ford came - he was his friend.
Basically, Henry Ford worked forEdison at one of his companies,
and they met at a conference.
And Henry Ford said to Thomasthat he was developing this new
car - it was called thequadricycle. It was basically a
bicycle. So Edison, as always,would say something to him like,
(04:53):
"What are you waiting for? Getto work," because that's the way
Edison would think. And so, Fordbecame really good friends with
them. He bought a house nextdoor. And when he bought the
house next door, they wouldtravel together, going camping,
and they loved to be together. Imean, they were basically,
Edison was like a father.
Douglas Still (05:15):
Well, this tree was brought to my attention by a
friend whose family is from theFort Myers area. Yeah, it was
like, wow, you've got to seethis tree. I haven't been there,
but I saw pictures, and it'sspectacular. I was wondering if
you could create a picture forour listeners, sort of in our
mind's eye, of what the treelooks like, how it fits into the
(05:39):
surroundings, and what it feelslike to stand next to it, or
better yet, underneath it.
Debbie Hughes (05:45):
Yeah, it's why people come to visit, honestly.
People will just drive up, youdon't even have to pay to see
it, you drive up. It's off thishistorical neighborhood, a very
amazing street called McGregorBoulevard. The Boulevard is
amazing to begin with. It's allpalms lining the street, and
(06:07):
when they turn into the parkinglot, they literally - their jaw
drops. Because the tree is -it's more than a tree. It's an
event. I have seen a lot oftrees in my life. I just came
back from the Portland andSeattle area, and you know how
their trees are amazing, too.
They have redwoods and cedarsand pines that are large, I
(06:31):
mean, we're talking reallylarge, to the point where you
can't really see how far up theygo. Looks like into the sky,
completely. This tree is totallydifferent. This tree - imagine
one central trunk, and youcouldn't even wrap your arms
around the central trunk, you'dhave to have three or four
people to wrap your arms aroundthe central trunk. But that's
(06:51):
not all of it. Once you get pastthat - the tree just keeps
walking. So imagine you have acentral trunk, and then you got
arms and the arms are so longthat they've dropped down aerial
roots. And after they droppeddown the aerial roots, it takes,
(07:11):
I don't know, five years forthose aerial - they're like
strings, they become a trunkthemselves, where you can barely
wrap your arms around them. Andit just keeps doing this all
around one acre. So it's a bigcircular tree...
Douglas Still (07:29):
I love that phrase that the tree's walking.
Unknown (07:33):
It's 393 inches in circumference. So if you took a
measuring tape and surroundedthe whole, I guess you would say
all the trunks because there's,there's quite a few, I would say
there's about 50 trunks.
[Amazing] That's 393 feet. Andthen the tree is 74 feet tall,
(07:55):
which is not extreme, right? Butit's a lot wider, it's a lot
wider than it is tall. So whenyou think about it, it's not
immense because it's tall, likea Sequoia or redwood would be,
it is immense because it justkeeps going, and it just keeps
walking. And to me, that's whatmakes it so much fun.
Douglas Still (08:19):
What's it like to walk underneath it, or through
it?
Debbie Hughes (08:22):
Well, it's it's difficult because the trunks are
like elephant feet. So each eachtrunk that attaches to these
branches. You kind of getwrapped up in them, you could
trip really easily. So you haveto be careful where you're
walking. Of course, it's 10degrees cooler. Say, for
(08:44):
instance it's 95 here today, ifyou're underneath that banyan
tree, it's a 80's and you feellike you're cool compared to the
rest, if you're in the sun. Andit's so shaded, it's like a
home. You can literally liveunder there. The only the only
thing that's really hard, Doug,is the fruit. It's nasty. It's
(09:07):
not edible to humans. I'm surethere are some animals that do
eat it. It's Ficus benghalensis.
It's from India. We don't haveprobably the animals that would
eat it, not even I don't evennotice the birds eating it. But
I do notice that it stinks andit makes a mess. But if that's
all we have to put up with,that's not too bad. If you stood
(09:29):
still long enough, it could growaround you and it would pick you
up. I do notice people have donetricks like that in other places
and the aerial roots will attachto bicycles. It will attach to
furniture, whatever.
Douglas Still (09:48):
So let's get to that origin story. [Yeah] Why
was the tree planted and whatwas going on?
Debbie Hughes (09:55):
The tree was planted simply because he was
doing rubber research. So hethought we need to have a rubber
source - during World War I theyhad a shortage. So he figured,
let's come up with a source thatwe can grow all over the United
States, and we could make surewe don't have that shortage.
Douglas Still (10:16):
And that might have also been from the
influence of Henry Ford.
Debbie Hughes (10:21):
Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, with the
tires. They had an arrangementit was called the Edison Botanic
Research Laboratory. And theytested 17,000 plants. Plants
were sent from all over theworld. And there was like an
urban legend that HarveyFirestone brought a little tree,
(10:42):
a banyan tree from India. It'ssince been proven wrong. So he
thought this tree has that whitelatex in it, so you could slash
the tree trunk, and you'd getthis white latex substance out
- which it's actually a rubber -but Edison, you know, the way he
was he was an inventor, not justin mechanical things. He
(11:05):
believed in doing inventionswith practical plant material,
too. So he tested all theseplants, he came up with
goldenrod. And you know why hecame up with goldenrod? When he
ground the goldenrod plants, 12%of it was rubber latex. So any
part of the world here in UnitedStates could grow goldenrod,
(11:27):
right? I mean, it's a nativewildflower or weed, some people
say. Every part of the country.
And he was basically thinkingyou could grow it just like you
grow cotton or corn or anythingelse. But the banyon tree was
his first, second, third choicemaybe. But then again, he
realized it couldn't grow in anyother part except for South
Florida.
Douglas Still (11:47):
So this was one plant among 17,000. Did you say?
Debbie Hughes (11:52):
Yeah, they started from everywhere. And
they had a research garden herein South Florida and a research
garden up in New York. And thenNew Jersey, both. Yes.
Douglas Still (12:01):
So they were hoping that this tree would have
a utilitarian purpose and becomea workhorse.
Debbie Hughes (12:07):
Right, and they continue to do this research,
even after he passed away in1931. And they closed it down, I
think around 1938, because theycame up with the the synthetic
rubber.
Douglas Still (12:18):
So what was planted around it? Was it in a
row of other types of trees?
Debbie Hughes (12:24):
It was in a row, like like you had an orchard,
but the banyan was unique. Idon't know why he put the banyan
where he put it. He must haveknown. It's almost like he went
in the future and came back.
[Doug laughs] It's got to gohere, you know, because where he
put it is the place whereeverything happens.
Douglas Still (12:44):
Right, it was in the center of it all, [the
center of it all] and it tookover.
Debbie Hughes (12:49):
Yes, we have pictures of just this little
teeny seedling about four feettall. And now when you see it,
you cannot believe it's the sametree.
Douglas Still (12:58):
We're going to come back to Debbie, but all
this had me thinking I need tolearn more about banyan trees.
As I mentioned before the banyanis a type of fig tree, which led
me to Mike Shanahan's wonderfulbook about the critical role of
fig species in tropical climatesworldwide. We're very lucky that
he agreed to come on the show.
Mike Shanahan is a freelancewriter and editor, with a
(13:22):
doctorate in rainforest ecologyfrom the University of Leeds. He
writes a blog called Under theBanyan, Stories About Us and
Nature, which focuses on climatechange and biodiversity loss.
But he's most well known for hisresearch and writing about fig
tree species worldwide, and in2016, he wrote a book called
(13:43):
Gods Wasps and Stranglers, TheSecret History and Redemptive
Future of Fig Trees. Thisfocused on the many ways that
fig trees have shaped humanevolution and civilization, both
physically and through theimagination and through myth. So
Mike, welcome to the show.
Mike Shanahan (14:06):
Thanks for having me, Doug. I'm looking forward to
talking to you.
Douglas Still (14:09):
So, how did you come to study fig trees and how
did they capture yourimagination?
Mike Shanahan (14:15):
I started on this journey in 1996 when I was doing
a master's project at theUniversity of Leeds, and I went
to Borneo for about a monthwhere I was working in a
national park there. And theNational Park I was in had about
80 different species of figtrees and huge variety within
(14:37):
those 80 species. And my projectwas looking at how different fig
trees use different tactics toattract their seed dispersing
animals. So, in terms of howthey produce their figs, where
they produce them, what colorthey are, whether they smell or
they don't smell, and I waslooking at how different types
(14:58):
of animals eat different typesof figs.
Douglas Still (15:00):
So I was impressed by how many different
fig species there are. Ficus isthe genus, what are the types of
fig trees that everyone knows.
Mike Shanahan (15:11):
So everyone's probably familiar with Ficus
carica, which is the so callededible fig. This is the one that
originated in the sort ofMediterranean area and has now
been planted as a domestic cropin about 70 countries. And
within that species alone, youhave, you know, many, many
hundreds of varieties thatfarmers have developed over
(15:34):
thousands of years. So that'sthe common one that everyone is
familiar with. Some of the figtrees are like that, they're a
typical tree, you know, astraight trunk and some branches
and some leaves. Many others dodifferent things. So you have
some that are just shrubs thatare very low lying, you have
some that are creepers thatclimb up onto other trees to
grow. And then you have thestrangler figs, which are some
(15:57):
of the most famous ones, whichoften start out in life high up
on another tree where their seedis deposited, and then they send
their roots downwards to reachthe earth and create a stable
scaffold.
Douglas Still (16:08):
What's the species that's the common house
plant?
Mike Shanahan (16:13):
So that's probably Ficus benjamina. That's
the so called weeping fig, whichin your house, maybe a couple of
feet tall, but in the rainforest, it can be 30 meters,
with a million figs on it andfeeding 30 or more species of
birds and mammals. That is akind of strangler fig in the
wild but it can also grow upfrom the ground. And then I
(16:36):
think a few more species thatyou find in households these
days include Ficus elastica,which is the the Indian rubber
tree, and Ficus lyrata, thefiddleleaf fig, which is a
increasingly popular houseplant.
Douglas Still (16:50):
When you were in Borneo you studied Ficus
aurantiaca. Did I pronouncedthat correctly?
Mike Shanahan (16:56):
Yes, more or less, yeah. [Doug laughs]
Douglas Still (16:59):
Could you describe it and maybe your first
experience when you saw it?
Mike Shanahan (17:05):
So this is a species that is of a type called
root climbers, and they startout in life on the forest floor
where a seed germinates, andthen they grow up a big tree.
They develop a very stout stemthat grows upwards and from that
grow from some very smallleaves, about the size of a
(17:27):
thumbnail. And as the fig growsupwards, it produces its figs
which can be about the size of atennis ball, big red orange
figs. And when you have fixedthat big, you need a big animal
to eat them and they'reparticularly favored by monkeys.
This is a species I encountereda few times in the rainforest.
(17:50):
But one time I was up a tree, Ihad gone looking for these figs,
and I saw some from a distanceand luckily there was a tree
nearby that had a ladderattached all the way up to it up
the top because some otherresearchers have been studying
that tree for other reasons. Andso I climbed this ladder. When I
say a ladder is actually aseries of ladders one on top of
(18:12):
the other going up very high.
Foolishly, I hadn't taken mysafety harness and I wasn't
clipped in, I didn't follow theprotocol and I just was
desperate to get hold of thesefigs. So I climbed and climbed
and climbed. As I went up, Iencountered a snake up the tree
as well, so I had to reach pastthe venomous snake to get the
(18:33):
figs I wanted.
Douglas Still (18:37):
This very "Garden of Eden."
Mike Shanahan (18:39):
[Laughs] Yeah, there was a lot of temptation
going on. But the figsthemselves, they are quite large
and I had to sort of stuffedthem inside the the clothes I
was wearing so I could get themback down to safety.
Douglas Still (18:53):
Well, in your book you write so beautifully
and bring us there, you know inthe readers mind, and I just
want to read a passage from whenyou're in the forest, because
it's so good. "Each time Istepped into that forest, I
encountered another world. Itwas hot and humid and full of
mosquitoes. The forest's paletteof greens and browns flooded my
(19:15):
vision. Countless trees crowdedin on me, vines crept and
corkscrewed their way skywardsat every possible angle. Some
were as thick as a thigh.
Strange sounds tricked my ears,strange shapes moved then
vanished. There were mustyscents whose sources I never
found. Most of the trees werejust a few centimetres thick,
(19:37):
but were so numerous I couldonly take a couple of steps off
a trail before hitting one.
Others were giants as broad as asmall car and none was as
spookily beautiful as the firstfree standing strangler fig I
saw there. Its host tree hadlong since died and rotted away,
(19:58):
and the stranglers roots nowformed a scaffold with a hollow
core. I stepped inside andlooked up. shafts of light shone
down at me from far above. ThisFicus kerkhovenii became my
favorite landmark in the forest.
Mike Shanahan (20:14):
Yeah, because it's just such an amazing thing
to come across in the forestwhen you're wandering around
this landscape of trees, trees,trees and trees and then
suddenly you come across thisthing that looks like molten wax
that is frozen in shape and isunlike anything else. It being
one of the strangler figs, itwas one that was particularly
attractive to lots of differenttypes of wildlife. So it was a
(20:38):
great one to go and watch atdawn when the animals come to
feed. But as I mentioned in thatextract that you read it it was
also a landmark and in theforest it's great when you're
wandering around a forest tohave these things that you spot
every now and again that remindyou of where you are and and how
to get home again.
Douglas Still (20:57):
Could you describe the strangler fig in
more detail just...could youdescribe the processes that are
happening from germination to itbecoming a full grown tree?
Mike Shanahan (21:09):
Okay, so most of these strangler figs are
dispersed either by fruit batsor by birds or monkeys, or
various other animals that arein the forest and they live in
the canopy. So when they poop,they poop out their seeds quite
high up. And if one of theseseeds happens to fall in the
right place, which is the crotchof a tree where the branch joins
(21:32):
the trunk, it will germinatethere and start to send down
some roots. These are calledaerial roots. So the tiny fig
seedling is way up in thecanopy, it's got a couple of
leaves to start with, and theseroots start descending downwards
and they hug the host tree andhead on downwards towards the
(21:53):
ground. Once they tap into thesoil down below, then the tree
can start to do two things. Itstarts to expand above where it
can produce many more leaves tocapture the sunlight. But it
also starts to produce many moreof these aerial roots which can
fuse with each other, they cansplit they can form a basket
work. So they form a structurethat's very stable so that even
(22:17):
if the host tree does die, thestrangler fig can then become
freestanding in many cases.
Douglas Still (22:23):
So it doesn't necessarily, in a tropical
forest situation, it can'treally survive by germinate - or
most can't survive - bygerminating in the soil because
there's a closed canopy. So ithas evolved to germinate up in
the canopy
Mike Shanahan (22:41):
Yes, beating the system really. Many of the
strangler fix can, in fact,germinate on on the ground, they
don't have to be on a on a hosttree but in a rain forest on the
ground is not a great place tobe because there's so much
competition and there's solittle light. So the strangler
figs really have reached thisdeal with the seed disbursing
(23:03):
animals and they pay them withthick flesh and then return they
get the seed dispersal service.
So they can very quickly get thebenefits of the light from the
canopy. And because of theirrapid growing roots, they then
get the benefits of the soil aswell, so they they get the best
of both worlds.
Douglas Still (23:21):
We're gonna come back to the banyan, but is the
banyan a strangler fig?
Mike Shanahan (23:26):
Yes, it is, it's one of the strangler figs and
perhaps the most impressive.
Douglas Still (23:31):
I was fascinated by the relationship between the
fig wasp and fig trees ingeneral. And that there's one?
There are many different typesof fig wasps, maybe as many as
there are fig tree species.
Could you describe therelationship? Y
Mike Shanahan (23:51):
Yeah, so it all hinges on the fig really. People
think a fig as a fruit, but it'snot really. It's like a hollow
ball lined with flowers. Andthose flowers don't really see
the light of day. They'repollinated only by fig wasps,
which are tiny little insects acouple of millimeters long. The
(24:11):
figs can only breed insidethose. So the fig wasps can only
breed inside the figs of theirpartner species. And in most
cases, each fig species has oneor maybe two fig wasp species
that do this service ofpollination for it. The female
fig wasp will be flying aroundand she's carrying eggs inside
(24:34):
her and she's got pollen on herfrom the fig in which she was
born. She has to find the rightkind of fig of the right species
at the right stage ofdevelopment. And when she does
so, she forces her way into thatfig through a tiny little hole
at the end of the fig. As shedoes her wings will be torn from
her body, her antennae will beripped off, and then she'll make
(24:55):
her way into the hollow part ofthe fig which will be completely
in darkness. And in there, shewill wander around on top of the
on the surface of the flowersthat are in there. She'll be
pollinating those flowers andlaying her eggs in some of them.
Douglas Still (25:10):
I'd like to switch to India now because our
banyan is from India. And firstI'd like to talk about Ficus
religiosa, and the mythologybehind that tree, the origins of
Indian culture and early peoplein India, specifically, I guess,
in the Indus Valley. Why was thetree important, and why did it
(25:33):
become such an important part ofa culture?
Mike Shanahan (25:36):
Well, Ficus religiosa is another one of
these strangler figs. Andgenerally these stranglers tend
to be very large trees, theytend to be very impressive to
look at because of their, theway they form and their aerial
roots that just look so eerieand strange. But also, they're
(25:57):
very important for theecosystems in which you find
them because they feed so manyanimals and those animals
disperse the seeds of many otherplant species. So they're
ecologically important and earlyhumans wherever they have
encountered strangler figs haveput them into their mythologies
and stories and have createdtaboos against cutting down fig
(26:21):
trees, which you find in inAfrica and Asia and the Pacific
and many other places. So Ficusreligiosa, in particular, has a
bit of this documented in theway that others others don't. So
the tree appears in ceramicseals that were made by the
people in the Indus Valley aboutthree and a half thousand years
(26:43):
ago. They depict what looks likea god or goddess figure within a
tree and somebody appearing tomake some sort of offerings for
it, suggesting that this treehad religious value all the way
back then. And since then, Ficusreligiosa, you know, has had
many important roles in othercultures that have come after
(27:07):
the Indus Valley people lived,including in Hinduism and
Buddhism. The tree that theBuddha sat beneath, as he
attained enlightenment was astrangler fig of the species
Ficus religiosa. It is importantfor many, many less well known
religions and local ethnicgroups across India. And in many
(27:31):
cases, people will use this treeas a place of prayer, a place to
particularly pray for thingsrelated to fertility and
longevity and a peaceful longlife.
Douglas Still (27:47):
And even just a meeting place. I mean, under the
shade of these this enormoustree, it's, you know, of value.
Mike Shanahan (27:55):
Exactly. These trees, the banyan in particular
has been used as a shade treefor thousands of years. It was
planted along roads to giveshelter to people traveling
between towns thousands of yearsago. It is a tree around which
settlements have sprung up. Manyvillages have got a banyan at
(28:16):
their center where the localgovernance takes place, local
village council takes placeunder the banyan tree, and the
Bombay Stock Exchange wasfounded underneath a banyan tree
in the city now called Mumbai.
So across India and other partsof South Asia, banyan trees and
other kinds of strangler figshave often been center points of
culture, of commerce, ofconversation. You know, these
(28:40):
things are part of the structureof life.
Douglas Still (28:45):
And as you state the fig tree around the world is
part of the creation myth ofalmost every major religion and
other religions. I'd like toread this one passage that you
wrote about, having to do withBuddha, and setting the scene,
the young Prince SiddharthaGautama was on a six year
(29:08):
journey to find enlightenment,and he ended up under a Ficus
religiosa. And you write, "Thetree belonged to a species
scientists today called Ficusreligiosa, the sacred fig. The
species grows up to 30 meterstall and has smooth gray bark
and small red figs. Itshand-sized, heart-shaped leaves
(29:28):
are shiny and stiff, with longpointed tips and long, slender
stalks. When the wind blows, theleaves tap against each other
and create a sound like the wingbeats of thousands of tiny
birds. This fluttering filledGautama's ears as he tried to
fathom the meaning of theuniverse." I just thought that
(29:50):
was so descriptive, and I lovehow you brought that sound in,
of that scene and that myth.
Mike Shanahan (29:57):
Thanks, I'm glad you like that. I find it fun
fascinating the idea of someonesitting for a long time under a
tree to meditate. But closingyour eyes and sitting under a
tree and just absorbing thesoundscape is a fun thing to do.
Douglas Still (30:10):
And I love the thought of those heavy, sort of
waxy leaves. I could hear thatand picture that. What are the
Hindu myths surrounding thebanyan tree?
Mike Shanahan (30:22):
The Banyan features in a great many myths.
And there are so many invites.
One of the famous ones is thatthe there's the idea of a cosmic
world tree which is a banyanthat is sort of upside down with
its roots in the heavens and thebranches descending down to
(30:42):
earth and bringing gifts tohumanity from the celestial
realm. And that's a story that'sbeen around for about two and a
half thousand years. It puts theBanyan right into the center of
Hinduism alongside other fiftrees. Another one is about the
(31:03):
idea that the the universetotally dissolves itself every,
you know, periodically and thenis reborn. So just in the idea
that you have reincarnation inHinduism, the idea also applies
to the universe as a whole thatit's it's periodically, a
(31:24):
dissolution happens and thenit's reborn. And one of the
stories says that the God Vishnuis there in this time floating
through the cosmos in the formof a baby resting on a banyan
leaf. And it's Vishnu who sortof inhales the whole of the
(31:44):
universe and then breathes itout again for its rebirth. There
are many stories about otherbanyan trees, there are some
that have grown up to be very,very large, these things are
truly huge. So...
Douglas Still (32:00):
This one's the largest of them all, right?
Mike Shanahan (32:02):
Yeah. So one of them there's a story about a
saint called Kabir who wasapparently brushing his teeth
with a bit of twig 550 years agoor so and he threw the twig away
after he'd finished andimmediately up sprang a huge
banyan tree as big as a forestcovering about a hectare of
(32:25):
land. And this tree, you can goto it now you can go to it
today. It's in Gujarat. It'scalled Kabirvad, and it's it was
on a silty island in the NarmadaRiver. Now, when a British
writer was there in the year1794, he describes this thing as
(32:46):
having about 350 trunks the sizeof an English oak tree and
another 3000 smaller trunks. Andthe idea that a tree can have
more than one trunk is alien, ofcourse to many people. But what
the banyan does as it grows, itsbranches grow out from the main
trunk of the tree. And as theygrow, they send down more of
(33:09):
these aerial roots that are thestrangler fig specialities. And
as these roots which are likehair, they're kind of like brown
matted hair, as they reach downto the ground, they thicken and
they become pillars that hold upthose big branches, allowing
them to grow even further out,and send yet more of these
pillar roots down. So from adistance, you can see what looks
(33:32):
like a small forest but it'sactually just a single tree
Douglas Still (33:34):
One tree [Yeah], and entire towns, or villages
sort of sprung up beneath abanyan tree.
Mike Shanahan (33:44):
Exactly. Yes, there's there's a city in India
called Vadodara, which means inthe heart of the banyan tree.
And that's how it grew up aroundone of these huge trees or
several of them. And if you gothere today, you'll find there
are many banyan trees there. Butthis Kabirvad, which is in
Gujarat, some people think itmay be the same tree that was
(34:08):
described by some of Alexanderthe Great's companions when he
reached India in the year 326BCE. So, you know, a couple of
thousand years ago,
Douglas Still (34:20):
They knew the fig that they had been eating back
in Greece and Macedonia. Butthen they discovered this banyan
tree.
Mike Shanahan (34:30):
Yes, and they even described it as being like
a fig even though the treeitself looks completely
different. They had lookedinside the figs and they had
made that connection thousandsof years ago, they sent these
descriptions back to, you know,back to Europe, and the Greek
philosopher Theophrastus, who'sconsidered to be the sort of
(34:51):
father of botany, he wrote uphis descriptions of the, you
know, the very firstdescriptions of Ficus in a
scientific sense. He named threespecies. It was the Ficus
carica, the edible one, thisbanyan from India which looks
totally different, and a thirdspecies, Ficus sycomorus, which
you find in in Egypt and otherparts of Africa as well. So he
(35:17):
joined the dots and named threespecies. But today, we know that
there are more than 800 of theFicus species.
Douglas Still (35:24):
They were just stunned when they saw this tree
for the first time.
Mike Shanahan (35:28):
They must have been one of the people in
Alexander's party said that 7000men could stand beneath this one
tree. [Incredible] for for along time, this was treated as
you know, hyperbole. And it's,you know, travelers tales from
an exotic land clearly they'vebeen exaggerated. But it's true,
you can get many more than that,actually. There's a there's
(35:50):
another tree and other banyan inSouthern India that 20,000
people can stand beneath. So,that was maybe a small one.
Douglas Still (35:59):
That's incredible. You've suggested
that awe is something thathumans have evolved to feel, and
that it's an evolutionaryadvantage. And fig trees are
intricately tied to thedevelopment of culture
worldwide, and then you sort oftie these together. Could you
(36:20):
talk about that a little bitmore?
Mike Shanahan (36:22):
Yes, I mean, awe is something that I've
experienced in rain forests acouple of times, and when you
experience something like that,it really does take your breath
away. And it changes it changesyou in many ways. And of course,
the strangler figs, for me arethe quintessential aspect of the
rainforest that transmits thatfeeling. Because when you walk
(36:45):
through a forest, and you comeacross these things, they do
blow your mind. They're they'reso big, they're so dominant,
and, you know, if you spend anytime trying to understand them
as well, then you understand howimportant they are.
Douglas Still (37:01):
Yeah, you write that, speaking of figs, their
power and fertility demand theattention and respect of every
human eye that sees them. Sowhat would you say, I mean, you
obviously have a great love forfig trees, including the banyan,
what meaning do you derive fromit? What meaning does it have
for you?
Mike Shanahan (37:22):
Well, studying ecology and fig trees in
particular, is a constantreminder that everything is
connected and understanding thatand appreciating that I think is
what studying figs has reallygiven to me. [music]
Douglas Still (37:38):
Whoa, we've come a long way and understanding the
special lineage of the littletree planted by Edison for latex
in 1926 in Fort Myers. But likethe tree grown from the
toothpick of the poet Kabir onan island in the Narmada River
back in the 15th century, andmany other banyans through time,
the Edison Banyan has grown tobe awe inspiring. That seems to
(38:00):
be its true purpose. It's aninspiring immigrant story, if
you will, but one that adds tothousands of years of stories
about fig trees, this time withan American twist. And as our
friend Debbie explains, the treeis quite a handful as it
continues to expand.
Debbie Hughes (38:16):
If we could get rid of the parking lot, and we
could let it walk some more? Andthat's what we're going to do.
It's just the kind of thingwhere we allow the tree to be
the boss, and that's one of thethings we have to allow. As far
as the buildings go, we doprotect it that direction, so it
doesn't destroy any buildingsfrom any kind of damage from
(38:37):
limbs falling. I have thearborist look at it, go up in a
lift, and we check to make sureeverything is good.
Douglas Still (38:45):
[And still one more surprising tale.] At some
point that tree started to growlike mad and start to spread.
Debbie Hughes (38:55):
Let me tell you about that. In order for them to
get it to spread more - it is achampion anyway, it is a
champion tree. It's the largestcontinental banyan tree in the
whole United States. Thedefinite improvement and making
it walk was done by a curator,Mr. Holgren. Now this is just an
(39:15):
urban legend also, but I kind ofbelieve this happened. Wherever
they wanted a new aerial rootsto fall down and and start into
the ground again. So they took ashot gun and they would shoot
holes exactly where they wantedthose aerial roots to start
growing [oh boy].And that put alittle stress on that getting
shot I'm sure. So it kind ofmaybe made the chemicals come
(39:40):
out and say okay, I need to putsome roots here. And you know,
in honesty, that's one of thereasons why we need to get rid
of the parking lot too becausewe need to do some more of those
shotgun shootings.
Douglas Still (39:52):
Oh, do you have a shotgun?
Debbie Hughes (39:56):
[Both laugh] I'm not gonna say we're gonna do
that. We're gonna see how itworks [okay] But that is an
urban legend for sure.
Douglas Still (40:03):
How does it inspire people, do you think?
What do they say after they seeit?
Debbie Hughes (40:09):
They say that they have gone to tree heaven.
You know, some people actuallyhave a bucket list of trees they
want to see. And that's one ofthem.
Douglas Still (40:20):
How many years have you worked there?
Debbie Hughes (40:22):
Sixteen.
Douglas Still (40:24):
After 16 years of working there, what meaning does
the tree have for you?
Debbie Hughes (40:30):
Job security for one [Doug laughs]. It is, to me
that tree is gonna go onforever. And I know that the
next person who takes overthey're gonna love it just as
much as me.
Douglas Still (40:45):
Well Debbie, you've been a charming guest on
This Old Tree. I reallyappreciate you taking the time
to talk about the Edison Banyan,and I wish you well in caring
for the tree [and keeping ithealthy] keeping it healthy and
expanding. Thank you for comingon the show.
Debbie Hughes (41:04):
Thanks Doug, you're the best.
Douglas Still (41:07):
Once again, I'd like to thank Debbie Hughes for
coming on the show, and thankthe Edison & Ford Winter Estates
in the city of Fort Myers forallowing us to feature the
Edison Banyan Tree. I'd alsolike to thank Mike Shanahan for
an incredibly engagingdiscussion about fig trees. His
book, Gods, Wasps, and Figs is afantastic read and I can't
recommend it enough. I've listedit in the show notes. In early
(41:30):
October, I'm going to getPatreon up and running and
Patreon subscribers will be ableto get the full interviews with
Debbie and Mike. I'm Doug Still,and if you liked the show,
please subscribe and tune inevery other week for more human
stories about heritage trees.
You can find us on Facebook andInstagram as well. And if you'd
like to stick around, we haveour very first listener
submitted Tree Story Short bySushil Sachdeva from Vadodara,
(41:53):
India about a special mangotree. See you next time!
This Old Tree song - Dee L (42:00):
This old tree, standing here for more
than four centuries. Wonder whatyou'd say if you could talk to
me about what it's like to be,,this old tree. Shadow and shade,
(42:23):
kids down the block are sellinglemonade. Send them down to cool
breezes sweet cascade, tailormade by this old tree. In
1600...
Sashil Sachdeva (42:43):
Hi, I am Sushil Sachdeva, a 61 year old
agriculturist from India. I'mdelighted to share with this
august audience the story of agiant sized mango tree, which my
family is so passionate andpossessive about. It is located
in the backyard of our familyfarmhouse adjoining a lemon
(43:06):
orchard, and a poultry farm in avillage at Vadodara, a city in
the western part of India. Notby design, it actually fell into
our lap as the most nondescriptobject standing amidst the woods
on the periphery of a parcel ofagricultural land that I
purchased about 15 years ago.
Somehow, I happen to spot thathere I was, blessed with a
(43:31):
natural gem in its most rusticform, which my predecessors on
this land, being people oflimited resources and meager
means had no eye for. In thefollowing couple of years, I
went about redesigning thelandscape of the two acre area
around this tree, and now thereit stands as a royalty estimated
(43:54):
to be 60 to 70 years of age 70feet tall with a crown diameter
of 50 feet. So majesticallyoverlooking the entire 10 acre
plot, with beautifully manicuredlawns and the family farmhouse
tucked almost underneath on oneside and the seasonal rivulet
(44:15):
flowing on the other. Every yearin February or March, with a
bated breath, we wait for theappearance of flowers, which
then convert to pea sized fruitsin a month's time. Usually,
around the first week of Junethe fruits are harvested. Being
a native cultivar and managedfully with organic manures, the
(44:39):
produce varies between 800 to1500 number of fruits per year.
These are six to seven incheslong, kidney shaped green
mangoes each weighing over apound. These precious little
little bounties are not forsale. They are meant to be
(44:59):
devoured by family and friends,located even as far as a
thousand miles away. Neatlypacked into 20 pound parcels,
they are shipped away to reachrespective destinations within
five to seven days, by when theyhave ripened into golden yellow,
(45:20):
sweet smelling mangoes with adistinctive aroma. We are still
searching for a name for thisrarest of rare cultivars. But I
assure you that all those whohave been fortunate to taste
even a single bite vouch thatthey haven't ever come across
anything similar. No wonder my80 year old aunt from Delhi over
(45:45):
a phone call the other day,almost admonishingly demanded
that I send her a largerconsignment the next year. Yeah,
I realized that she, with afamily of four, had just
consumed only 60 of them thisyear. Thanks for your time. Bye
then.
Douglas Still (46:09):
Thank you Sushil, and have a good day everyone.
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