The Earth is in Pain Waiting for You to Be Revealed with EbonyJanice

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
The views shared in this episode represent Kelly and
Kendra, not our mamas, partners,church, job, or sponsors.
Welcome back to This Woman IsWord, our podcast.

(00:21):
Today we have a very specialguest that we are honored to
have join us.
And I could read her bio, but II think that she can tell us
about herself better than we cantell you.
So I'm going to kick it rightoff and just ask our illustrious
guest to introduce herself.
Hi, my name is Ebony Janice.

(00:41):
I go by Ebony Janice.
And I am just, first of all,very grateful to be invited to
this conversation with the bothof you.
I appreciate that you didn'tread my bio because bios are so
miscellaneous.
Like, is it even true?
It's true, but the point is, Iam a free woman on a love

(01:03):
journey.
I am the author of the mostrecent book, All the Black Girls
Are Activists, A Fourth WaveWoman, His Pursuit of Dreams is
Radical Resistance, and haveintroduced this so-called fourth
wave woman and actually go bythe title of a hip-hop womanist.
So I'm assuming those things arethe reasons that I was invited
to talk on this womanist workpodcast.

(01:24):
Yes.
I am sorry to be here.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And we'll get to that wholeconcept of womanist hip-hop,
hip-hop, womanist hip-hop orhip-hop womanist later because
I'm really excited about talkingto someone from the generation
who would call themselves ahip-hop womanist when I was kind

(01:45):
of born out of the hip-hopfeminist generation with John
Morgan, and I'd like to see thecontinuation of that trajectory
and see what that means to you.
But, you know, the Boca Rockpodcast is about Kelly and I
growing up as Gen X women,growing up in church, and still
being very aligned with a lot ofthe spiritual values and a lot

(02:06):
of the values that we learned inthe church and learned from very
religious families, but alsohave major critiques to them.
And we were college roommates sowe've known each other for 30
plus years and we've beentalking about these things for
years and we decided to bring itto the pod because we didn't
want to have a podcast just tohave it we wanted to have
something to talk about and Godknows for 30 years we've been

(02:26):
talking about this thing and soI'm really you know we can talk
about pop culture we can talkabout hip-hop we could talk
about being a free woman and allthose things but I really want
to just kind of kick off wherewe where we kind of enter the
conversation around spiritualformation and womanist theology
and ask about you know inwomanist theology one thing we
do is we we center the theexperiences of black women and

(02:48):
so i'm wondering how yourspiritual leadership training
and your theology shapes the wayyou see liberation work oh
that's such a good question welltwo things first of all i i have
said womanism saved me because iwas in a theological shift in a
major theological shift to theextent that i was like jesus are
you real at all like that likethat place of not just kind of

(03:13):
questioning my faith but reallyin Jesus Christ, period.
And what.
relationship or role JesusChrist was going to play in my
life.
And I love that we are blackwomen who are Christian
adjacent, you know, or Christianwho are, who are able to, and
have the privilege in thisseason of our lives to ask those
questions.
Because for years I was, youknow, quote fingers in the

(03:34):
closet about the fact that I wasasking these questions.
So in a season where we get totalk about this out loud and not
have all of the black women inthe world, you know, or online
say, this is demonic.
Y'all go in hell.
Many of us are, asking thesequestions, at the very least,
asking these questions.
So I say womanism saved mebecause part of what brought me
back to Jesus as a part of myactual theological truth system

(03:59):
was womanism.
It was in a pulpit, talkingabout the Bible in a way that I
had never heard the Bible spokenof.
I had never heard Hagar inparticular talked about as an
African woman.
I had never heard that framing.
Obviously, I grew up hearingabout Hagar.
I grew up hearing about Sarah.
I grew up hearing about, youknow, these different characters

(04:21):
in the Bible and nobody had evermade her African.
Nobody had.
And if they ever made herAfrican, nobody had ever noted
the importance of the fact thatshe was African.
And that was really just kind ofeye opener for me of like, wait
a minute.
God is not.
I am.
I am in this text.
You know, God is thinking aboutme even in the Old Testament.

(04:43):
God is thinking about me in theNew Testament.
So that's number one.
Number two, though, one of myhonorable ancestors, which is my
childhood pastor, Reverend Dr.
Eddie N.
Henry.
Mind you, this man is not evenhave a high school education.
You're going to get a doctoratethough.

(05:29):
taking the mic because I had aprophetic word, you know,
teaching Sunday school, doingthe things that I was doing.
I know it was, I'm going tostart singing.
I know it was the blood becauseI got, the song lyric did not go
there, but I know it was thespirit that was allowing this
older black man from the Southwith, you know, who had not read

(05:52):
Cone, who had not, you know,wasn't thinking about black
liberation theology, who wasable to look at me even as a
young girl and say, let thatbaby preach, let that baby
speak, let that baby, you know,prophesy, let whatever's coming
up for her.
And that was really kind of thebeginning.
And I'm saying let, but I don't,I, that just feels important

(06:13):
because there were people beingsat down in my Southern Black
Christian experience, right?
Being told this is not allowed.
So let was absolutely animportant, you know,
contribution to, you know, metelling that part of my
testimony.
I have so many questions.

UNKNOWN (06:29):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Why you?
What is it about your connectionto spirit that brought you forth
into this leadership role?
It's funny.
I like good questions that takeus where we didn't mean to go

(06:50):
because I'm about to gosomewhere that I have never gone
publicly.
But nobody's ever asked me thatquestion.
Why you?
I am fleshing out this idea formyself or really interrogating
what I believe aboutreincarnation.
It isn't language that Inecessarily use or I just

(07:13):
haven't owned it yet because I'mstill thinking about it.
And I've been thinking about itfor years, which is a thing that
I wish people would do.
I wish you would think for alittle bit longer before you
just start saying words outloud, you know, spend time with
yourself, with spirit, looking,you know, find the scholars,
find the elders, the ancestorswho are thinking about these
things too.
So that by the time you saysomething out loud, it is,

(07:36):
you've thought this through.
So I've been thinking about thisfor years.

UNKNOWN (07:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (07:40):
about the idea of reincarnation that we
reincarnate, not just if that isa thing that I believe that I'm
not just returning to do thesame thing over and over again,
that I, that I am in thislifetime in fleshing a lesson

(08:03):
that I didn't learn in the lasttime.
And this is my opportunity inthis human experience to
manifest as the embodiment ofthat lesson.
And I feel like some of whatbrought this up for me was
probably about 12 years ago now.

(08:24):
Somebody tagged me in thispicture on Instagram of this.
It looks exactly like me.
It's this photo exactly like me,but it was not me.
And for years, I kept trying tofigure out who this lady was.
And then I found out that yearslater, Google photos, images
made it possible to find out whoshe was.

(08:45):
And her name is Aduni Idowu.
I did not know that at the time.
There was no name.
It was just that she was one ofFela Kuti's wives.
And so I'm like, okay, now Iknow who this lady is.
So then I start thinking, well,I have to be related to her in
some way.
So we do the African ancestry totry to figure out if our
ancestry connects to Nigeria.

(09:05):
And as much as we can find, wehave not found direct lineage to
Nigeria.
Nigeria.
So I'm like, well, if it ain'tmy blood relative, then I must
have returned.
But I've been researching foryears trying to find out this
lady's name.
Finally, 2019, I came acrossthis book that somebody wrote

(09:29):
about Fela and put several ofthe wives, not all of them, but
put several of the wives in thisbook.
And she's one of the wives inthe book.
And this is how I found out hername.
And in her interview, I'm fullyemotional saying this, in her
interview, she said, I want myname to be known.
I thought about that because Ihave been trying to get people

(09:50):
to say my name properly since Iwas a little girl because I'm
one of a few black girls who goby a double first name.
And so there's that.
But additionally, the idea thatfor years, the only way people
have known her is as one of FelaKuti's wives felt violent to me
in the moment that I read that.
That she's saying in thismoment, I want my name to be

(10:13):
known and we have assigned heras one of Fela's wives and so I
thought you know who I am inthis lifetime as a person I
absolutely will reincarnate asmyself be obsessed with myself
for years until I could find myname so that I could say it out
loud and that was kind of reallythe beginning of me really
thinking about returning asancestors or returning to

(10:37):
continue work or returning toheal something and again it's a
thing that I am continuing totrouble, but it is where I've
landed.
And so all those words to say,why me in this time, in this
moment, to this work, I feellike it is ancestral.
I feel like it is a part of myassignment in this lifetime.

(10:58):
I feel like those, those that Iknow and don't know that I am
doing work to give a voice or toask some questions or to give
some language at the very leastfor my grandmother, for my great
grandmother.
And there are just so manythings, my own things, Thinking
through this and dreaming andimagination and using my
spiritual imagination, which islanguage that I kind of

(11:18):
cultivated from something thatToni Morrison said.
But it's that that that bringsme to know.
I believe that I believe thatI'm healing for my grandmother.
I'm saying some words that mygreat grandmother maybe thought
but couldn't say.
I think that's a lot of words tosay.
No, but it was so necessary.
And before Kelly, I'm sure youhave another question, but I

(11:40):
have to interject and ask, wereyou one of those kids that
people would say?
that baby been here beforeabsolutely okay which is a thing
that I have I have askedparticularly black Christian
people who reject or resist theidea of reincarnation what do
you mean there's no space for usto think about this when you say

(12:01):
words like that baby got an oldsoul or that baby or or you know
it's a cardinal outside ohthat's mama how is that mama if
you don't see the possibility ofthe soul or the spirit existing
inside some other form.
We have so many contradictionslike that.
We talk about hoodoo and all theother stuff and we be running

(12:21):
around putting stuff under thething and eating black eyed
peas, but you know how we do.
Anyway, sorry, go ahead, Kelly.
No, no, just a really powerfuloffering for us to consider.
So thank you for sharing it withus for sure.
Absolutely.
So can you talk a little bitabout fourth wave womanism And

(12:44):
I'm especially curious aboutwhat it offers to foremothers,
because that's something thatI'm really I think a lot about.
And I think we've we've welcomedthe ancestors into this
conversation.
I would love to make someconnections there.
Yeah.
So first of all, I am alwaystickled to talk about a fourth
wave of womanism.
when the majority of the firstwave womanists are alive still.

(13:08):
So that is, it is a veryaudacious thing to say when, you
know, Dr.
Emily Towns is sitting rightthere, you know, when Dr.
Renita Weems is sitting rightthere.
And I love that at the sametime, as kind of scary as it is
as a scholar to say somethinglike that, because, you know,

(13:31):
people don't care.
They will tell you to shut uppublicly.
And will.
And will.
So I love that.
I love that they are alivebecause they have the
opportunity then to eitheraffirm or to offer critique
about how we're thinking aboutthis.
But fourth wave womanism,really, to me, I started

(13:51):
thinking about the idea of beingin a fourth wave of womanism
probably about 10, 15 years ago.
I would say 10, 12 years ago.
And what was happening is I amactually friends in real life
with Sonia Renee Taylor.
And I remember when she decidedto, she used to wear wigs very
often.

(14:11):
I don't know if people know whoSonia Renee Taylor is.
We went to the same high school.
Sonia was well known in thepoetry world.
And I love to brag on Soniaabout this because I love the
origin of a thing.
And people don't be givenparticularly Black women credit

(14:32):
for the origin of a thing.
Sonya Renee Taylor is one of thefirst people to ever go viral
with a challenge.
She created a challenge.
It went viral.
And there were not challengeslike that going viral before
Sonya Renee Taylor started theRuckus Challenge, which stood
for Radical Unapologetic HealingChallenge for us.
This is back in 2011, 2011,2012.
She was wearing a lot of wigs atthe time, and she decided to

(14:57):
take her wig off on camera andthen shave her head bald because
she was dealing with some hairissues.
And it was this really kind ofradical moment because she's
showing what her hair patcheslook like she's showing all this
on camera and I thought Iwatched that happen I did my own
records challenge which is Ifeel like I got it hidden on

(15:19):
YouTube now because it was avery dramatic season of my life
but I remember watching her inthat season kind of evolve from
talking about things in aparticular way to really focused
on feeling to really beingfocused on taking care of
ourselves whole spirit soul andbody and really having this

(15:41):
conversation in such a way thatwas really talking about this is
how we get free so it wasn'tthis supplemental idea that we
should do this in our journeythat it was this is how we are
going to get free this is it andthen I was also introduced to

(16:03):
Dr.
Monica Coleman in that seasonand was the work of Dr.
Coleman, who is the one who'sbeen credited for introducing a
third wave of womanism.
And so once I started tointerrogate her work and its
definition and how she'sdefining a third wave of
womanism, I saw so much of whereI identified myself, but there

(16:26):
was also still something thatwas outside of the pulpit, which
is really where that text at thetime was focused.
And really what I acknowledgethat from a womanist theological
perspective, so much of thecanon is focused, have been
focused at that point onpreaching.
And, but I acknowledge thatbeing in this era, because I'm

(16:49):
a, I'm an elder millennial.
So I am in the era of grew up,you know, at the very beginning
of social media, at the verybeginning of technology, at the
very beginning of that boom.
So I have intimate relationshipboth without and with it.
And the pulpit for my generationin particular I feel like had
immediately started to evolveaway from this particular place

(17:11):
it was not a location it wasearly in the game we were using
captions and blogs and you knowall of these different social
media platforms to share thisword and so for the way that I
have so there was even more ofthat that was kind of like okay
this is a distinction if thereis something different happening

(17:32):
this is a distinction And Ireally loved that Dr.
Monica Coleman talks about it ina wave because she's
acknowledging that there isnothing in the wave that is
exclusive or excluding firstwave or second wave.
The first wave is inside this,you know, crust as well.

(17:54):
And so I'm thinking to myselfover the years of really
observing what else washappening.
Trisha Hersey Patrick with theKnapp Ministry, Sheila Marie
Taylor.
Sheila Marie of Kirby CurlyConscious, who's thinking about
play as a part of the actualwork that black women should be
having access to.
Lauren Ash, who founded BlackGirl and Home, who was basically

(18:15):
talking about black women shouldhave a safe space just to
breathe.
So we're talking about thismoment where there is really a
rise of black women who arefocused on being whole, that we
refuse to arrive at theso-called finish line and be on
our deathbed.
Yeah.
But period, more than anything,I saw this remnant or this group

(18:37):
of women ultimately saying, thatis what we are supposed to be
doing.
Above marching, and that isnever to say that marching or
petitions or any of those thingsare not true.
But before we do any of that,who would we be if we were to
take such radical care?
And so I brought Sonia ReneeTaylor into the conversation
earlier because she's been,she's even more, I think,

(19:00):
mystical now than she was in thebeginning of this journey.
But I feel like I saw ithappening I saw her talking
about how energetically whatwill happen for us as we begin
to transform internally is thatwe are going to be healing the
earth and I feel like for blackwomen I feel like for black

(19:21):
people in general but I feellike for black women we have not
really had the privilege or theluxury of thinking about the
powerful transformative power ofour healing that I I could heal
so deeply and so intentionallythat, that my family is now

(19:42):
being healed from, you know,sickness and disease and mental
health issues.
Right.
That is not just the inspirationof my healing, that there is
something literally happening asa result of me being intentional
in this space.
And so I'm, I'm making thisconnection, even though Sonia
would necessarily call herself awoman.
Yeah.

(20:02):
Yeah.
But that, That is what I saw.
I saw these women talking aboutthis.
I have been for years talkingabout dreaming as a part of our
radical resistance and notdreaming as supplemental to, but
that dreaming is a tool that wecan use to propel ourselves into
our destiny.
And in our destiny, we arecertainly free.
That is a part of our destiny.

(20:24):
And so that is where I came tothe, I knew that we were in a
fourth wave of womanism,particularly because these were
women who weren't saying this issupplemental so that we can
endure.
this is what we are supposed tobe doing.
And this is very unique in thisconversation that's been
happening for several ways now.
This is very unique in thatwe're not, we don't think that
the pulpit is necessarily aparticular place.

(20:46):
We certainly, third wavewomanists had already been
thinking this.
We certainly know that it isn'ta specific religion or naming.
We certainly know that at thispoint, but even more so, you
know, many, many of us were notthinking about church or
religion in any way, shape, formor fashion.
We just knew that we needed tobe healing.
We needed to be coming.
We needed to be evolving.
And the way that we were goingto do that work was through our

(21:09):
wholeness, our wellness, ourdreaming, our, you know,
pushing, pushing forth in thatway.
Absolutely.
I feel like listening to youtalk about this.
Well, first of all, Kelly, Iknow you would agree.
I feel like you should have beenin the group chat a long time
ago, right?
You know, I'm like, oh man,there's so much clarity in your
thinking around things that wetalk about all the time.

(21:30):
One of our other co-founders ofthis podcast is not actively
hosting generally, but she'salso an elder millennial and
she's slightly younger than us.
And it's just interesting to seethe slight difference in
approach between just those fewyears between where elder
millennials are and Gen X areand how inspired we have been by

(21:52):
our elder millennial.
And then to our producer'spoint, younger millennial
friends who have just reallycentered liberation and healing
and everything and all of theirwomanism and feminism, which has
been the turning point.
And which is why, you know, Ihave been following your social
presence for a long time.
Both Leitra and I have talked atlength as well as Kelly about

(22:12):
your book, Black Black girls areactivists.
But I was particularly takenrecently, I think it was on
Threads, where you were talkingabout how people are hell-bent
on being misunderstanding Blackwomen who do seek rest and who
do seek easeful ways ofliberation.
And I think in many ways we canfigure it out, but I really want

(22:37):
to hear from you.
Why do you think that is?
Why is rest so threatening todominant culture, particularly
when we talk about our justicework?
Nanny from eyes are watchingGod.
I quote it in that post.
The nigger woman is the mule ofthe world.
There is no place on this planetthat you can go where that has
not historically been the case,particularly as a black American

(22:59):
woman and knowing the history ofhow I am and a black American
woman, right?
That my ancestors were forcedto, you know, away from their
home.
And I am, you know, a directdescendant of enslaved people.
And Black, Dr.
Renita Williams, actuallyDolores Williams, who is a first

(23:22):
generation or first wavewomanist, actually one of the
first womanist theologianscredited for using that language
of womanism in her publishing.
But Dr.
Dolores Williams talks about howBlack women's, the subjugation
of the Black woman's body, thatBlack women are the only living

(23:43):
beings, human beings who havebeen used for both labor and
reproduction she's making thisconnection to the way that you
use animals the way like an oxor a bull or a horse or a donkey
and the earth the way that youuse the earth you continue to
pull from it and that is thepurpose of it it is a resource

(24:06):
it is not a thing that you honoras divine or that you honor as
living and so that matters youknow in the context of
understanding why people, ifhistorically Black women in this
era that we live in or this timethat we live in, if historically
Black women have only beenexperienced or received as for

(24:32):
our labor and for what we can,our labor, our work, our
reproduction, meaning creatingmore laborers, there is no way
that you can see a soft, a well,a rested, a chilling, a you
don't even want to hear thatlanguage as it pertains to black
women.
There's something extremelyoffensive.
And I would also like to say asa forefather, I've been called

(24:55):
forefather of this softnessconversation.
That as a forefather of thissoftness conversation, that I
also take offense to the factthat the major way that softness
is being presented is emphasison the luxury aspects of it,
right?
There's an emphasis on that whenthere is absolutely full-blown

(25:16):
definition and understanding ofwhen we talk about softness, we
are not talking about layingaround on a lily pad, even
though I want all my niggas tobe able to lay around on a lily
pad.
Right, right.
Yes.
But the fact that the way thatpopular culture or the way that,
you know, social media isforcing that conversation or
that aspect of it.
Meanwhile, there is a wholescholar sitting right here who

(25:39):
has given us definition, who hascontinued to push back on that,
who has continued to say thatwhen we talk about softness,
we're not talking about anaesthetic.
We are talking about well blackwomen.
We're talking about regulatingnervous system.
We are talking about being fullyseated in our bodies.
And I pulled I have pulledactual softness architect to
show that this ain't a newgeneration thing.
Toni Morrison was sitting rightthere, fully seated in her

(26:01):
softness, saying hard things.
She is the evidence that Blackwomen saying that we deserve to
be well-rested, to be seated, tobe soft, are not saying we don't
want to do work.
We're just saying I don't wantto have to cuss you out in the
middle of doing it.
And I want to have tools andaccess and resources that
support me to be able to befully seated in my body when I
say this hard thing.

(26:21):
But because y'all so used to thenigger woman being a mule of the
world, You are being obtuse whenyou hear her saying that we're
resting.
You are being obtuse when you'resaying that get somebody else to
do it.
And this is the last thing Iwant to say, and I'll be lying
because I grew up in America, sowhen I say this to Ann, Ann
ain't Ann.
But this is what I think I'mtelling the truth.

(26:42):
This is the last thing I want tosay about that.
I have found that when peoplewant somebody to go to bat for
them, they come find the Blackwomen, right?
Like, it's a thing that they do.
Like, because she'll get them.
Ebony Janice will get them told.
Kelly will get them told.
Kendra will get them told.
I don't want to get nobody told.
I don't want to.
And so when I say get somebodyelse to do it, that doesn't mean

(27:05):
that I don't agree that theyneed to be told.
That means that what's happeningin my body, every time you
expect me to be the one to standup and get them told, it's
several generations too far.
We're far beyond that.
My immune system, we've seenstudies proven that Black women
are dealing with chronic illnessat a higher rate who work in

(27:28):
corporate America.
at a higher rate than any othergroup of people.
You know why?
Because we always got a nice,nasty, cuss somebody out because
y'all don't know how to talk tous.
And then we can't even actuallydo the work to be fully seated
in our bodies.
No, get somebody else to do it.
Meanwhile, I'm going to be overhere playing with Kelly and
Kendra.
We're going to be minding ourbusiness.

(27:48):
We're going to be healing.
We're going to be resting.
We're going to be playing.
You know, this is what we'regoing to be doing.
And the thing that I need you toknow is that too is a worthy
part of our contribution to whatliberation will look like
because I want the black girlsThat's why I say all the Black
girls are activists.
We have been doing this forever.
If the Black girls don't donothing else but heal and show
up as ourselves, we did it.
We did it, guys.
We did it.

(28:11):
I mean, I know itintellectually, but just in this
moment, and Kelly can attest,this is kind of where I am
because I'm a multifaceted girl.
I'm a scholar girl.
I'm a creative girl, but I alsowork a corporate job.
And I've recently been tellingpeople that were, y'all, it
ain't going to be me this time.
I just been saying that.
And so I, when I tell you, Ifelt that thing, I felt that

(28:33):
thing.
I felt that thing.
I just want to say that.
I just, I just want to give amoment for that because you know
that you are not the only personwho has felt that or is
currently feeling that.
And I often use this example andI'm sure you working in
corporate America, you have somany examples of this where
we're in this moment with peoplewho have so called themselves my

(28:54):
so-called ally.
Right.
And, and a violent thing ishappening to me.
And nobody's saying anything.
And the only way that I will beokay is if I get about my seated
softness in order to address it.
Because very often it is just meor just you.

(29:14):
I got to address it becauseyou're not going to get a part
two to ever be able to treat methis way.
So now I got to address it.
We get out the room.
Thanks so much for sayingsomething about that, Ebony
Janice.
I was okay.
Can I say bitch?
Yes, you can.
You should have said somethingin that moment.

(29:36):
So when we say also get somebodyelse to do it, that really is a
part of what we mean in thatlanguage as well.
There is somebody else in thisroom who should be doing it.
It should not be us all thetime.
I am the hierarchy and there isa hierarchy and the hierarchy of

(29:57):
who we should be passing themicrophone to and or in the
hierarchy of who we should belistening to and or in the
hierarchy of who need to bespeaking up it should not be
black women in this moment youknow and I what I mean by that
is this all this violence allthis it's you and your cousins
so why did you expect me to haveto be the one to say here let me

(30:20):
break this down for you we meand a 42 year old white woman
why am I in charge on theconversation about anti-racism
You are most intimate with it.
It's you and your cousins.
It's your behavior.
It's your lived experience.
You got to be an expert on thisat this point.
You see your mama, your grandma,your auntie.
So why am I in charge?
You call yourself my ally.

(30:41):
Ally me then.
Help me then.
So it's that.
It's I want us to continue tothink out loud about that, about
all the times that it's once weget out the room, then people
want to thank.
Thank you for saying something.
Why didn't you say?
Thank you for being so brave.
Why weren't you?
It should have been you.
It should have been you.
I see my Baptist line at thispart in All the Black Girls Are

(31:04):
Activists, where I talk aboutthis theory that I have when it
comes to microaggressions andmoments like that.
I call it where you show up iswhere I show out, which is, you
know, I learned that from myBlack mother.
And I pointed out in the moment,when people do that kind of
thing to me, I pointed out inthe moment, oh, Ebony Janisse,
thank you for being so brave.
You should have said something.
It was actually, you should havesaid something.

(31:26):
that and not doing so actuallycontributed to the harm that I
was experiencing that way in themoment where you show out is
where I show out so that by thetime you know we get home that's
why your mama you know showedout on you right there so you
don't get what you did righthere the thing that's why so
that's why I'm going to tell youright here in this moment this

(31:49):
is what you did so that when Isaw I got to come next week and
say you know I felt harmed Idon't know what happened I
didn't remember that you knowwhat you just did.
You should have said somethingin the room and you contributed
to the harm because you forcedme to have to say it.
I would hope that in the futurethat wouldn't happen again.
It don't feel good.
We just had that conversationlast night.

(32:10):
We sure did.
Amen and Ashe.
And you know, I'm about to go ona curve, but it made me think,
flashback, one time, talkingabout being in the moment, your
mama want to let you know, onetime we had a choir rehearsal at
the church.
It was probably on a Tuesdayevening and I wanted to get
smart with my mother in themiddle level in front of
everybody.
And my mother smacked the crapout of me on the, in the

(32:32):
fellowship hall or whatever, themain level during problems,
everybody was there.
And I, But guess what?
I never did that again.
Now, I don't condone smacking noteens in the middle of things
like that.
But Lord, as soon as you saidthat, it took me back to that
moment when I was like, I cannotbelieve she did that.

(32:52):
I can't believe she has a nerve.
In this very moment, in thisvery moment, and I feel it's
important because the discomfortis also in that study around
chronic illness.
The discomfort is like I'm goingto be uncomfortable by myself.
I'd like to invite you all intothis discomfort.

(33:12):
Right now.
I've always made the excuse whatKelly's talking about.
I was telling her yesterdayabout something crazy happened
and how I was so livid that Ifelt like if I spoke in that
moment, I would have tore thewhole thing down.
So I said, I'm going to take abeat and come back to her later.
And I think in that moment, Idid make the right decision.
But there are other times when Idon't do it in that moment, it

(33:33):
don't feel good.
So then when I try to do itlater, it feels like I feel
deflated.
I I feel like, why am I evenbothering sometimes?
Um, so yeah, I won't go on aboutthat, but that was, that was
really a man in our shape.
And holding a lot of empathy forBlack women who feel like if I
say something, it's going tocost me something I can't

(33:54):
afford, right?
It's going to cost me thisprotection.
It's going to cost me this job.
It's going to cost me thispersona that I've created.
And I think that what I hearyou, Ebony, Denise saying is
that this fourth wave ofwomanism offers us an
opportunity to heal so that wecan do those things.

(34:16):
Yeah.
It's that and also...
I want us to have thisconversation more often and just
put it on a quarterly roll forBlack women to discuss this.
Because when I started talkingabout this idea of where you
show out is where I show out asit pertains to microaggressions,

(34:39):
there's a lot of resistance tothat for the very reason that
you just said, that there isprivilege.
There has to be some privilege.
You can't do that in real life.
You can't do that in corporateAmerica.
You will lose something.
You will.
And so the two things that Isay, one of the things is I have
actually personally never beenafraid to burn a bridge that led

(35:01):
to a place where I wasn't safeanyways.
So let's just like deal withthat.
You think that you are safe?
You are not safe.
You think that not sayingsomething is preserving this
experience or that you're goingto lose something?
You are not safe.
And we think that, you know,keeping the job or the

(35:25):
opportunity or the experience iskeeping us safe.
You mean staying in this abusiveexperience is keeping us safe?
Well, we got to fix it from theinside out.
You mean getting beat up onevery single day is preserving
it, is saving it, is keeping ussafe?
It is not safe.
It's not safe.

(35:46):
And so what I'm offering is thatdoing the work that this, you
know, fourth wave or theso-called fourth wave of
womanism is offering us supportsus.
And I'm going to go back to ToniMorrison because she is my
softness archetype because wehave seen Toni Morrison sit in a
white woman's face and call herlittle, which a little self, you

(36:09):
know, we have seen Toni Morrisonsit in a white man's face and
ask him, you know, do you thinkthat makes you bigger?
You know, other than that,right?
We see, and she did it.
like this.
When I talk about the seat, yourseat itself, which is that
myself and another thinker cameto several years ago.

(36:31):
I was talking about, she wastalking about Toni Morrison and
I said, you know what?
The seat of Toni is what wereally should be seeking.
You're looking for, if you needan example, if you need an
archetype, Toni Morrison is sucha profound example of that.
Very Obatala energy, very likethis rooted in her body.

(36:54):
And still this little tendervoice never had to scream,
shout, never.
And I'm not saying thatscreaming, shouting isn't a part
of our another softnessarchetype.
Solange Knowles has revealed tous that, you know, we got the
right, we got a lot to be madabout.
So we have to be angry and to bemad, right?

(37:16):
But Toni Morrison has thissoftness archetype is her
shoulders are relaxed.
She is deep exhaled.
She's sitting down in her body.
You know what it feel like whenyou got to get about your body.
You automatically...
You know, we got language forit.
It's called bucking, right?
And you know what it feels likewhen you buck.

(37:36):
Your body's tense.
You got to get up.
Your stomach gets in a knot.
I'm talking about not just thiswoo-woo idea.
I'm talking about physicallybeing fully seated in your body.
That is this idea.
That is what I'm talking aboutwhen I talk about softness.
And so what does it mean then tohave these tools to do the work

(37:57):
to be seated so that in themoment that's something wild is
happening to you, that you canlook at it from your fully
seated self and say, and sayfrom your fully seated self,
this is harmful.
That's it, right?
I don't even got to cuss nobodyout.
All I got to say in this moment,and I have my own lived

(38:21):
experience is that, is thatbecause I've been doing this
work for so many years, I'vebeen practicing this.
I've been practicing staying inmy seat.
I've been practicing mysoftness.
I have, I'll tell this exampleand then we can do the
benediction to this, but I waswalking to, I was in a class
with a bunch of white people.

(38:42):
There's only one other blackBlack person in the class.
And we're doing a rounddiscussion of our final
projects.
And my final project wasactually on Black women's body
ownership as a justice issue,which this is about to be ironic
what I'm about to say.
And the person that went rightafter me, I didn't say her name,

(39:03):
but I had to use her, anexperience that I had with her
in that semester in mypresentation.
So I made this video, you know,little video talking about Black
women's body ownership as ajustice issue.
And I was talking in thisparticular section about the
invisibilization of Black women,that you don't even see Black

(39:24):
women until you need them forlabor.
This particular white woman hadintroduced herself to me three
times that semester.
Here's the issue.
I was the only cisgender Blackwoman in full-time high
residency at that institution.
Miss ma'am.
You know who I am.

UNKNOWN (39:42):
Miss ma'am.

SPEAKER_00 (39:43):
If I don't remember your name and you look like 12
other people here, I know youain't forgot me.
I know that from the bottom ofmy heart.
So I never said her name, but Idid acknowledge this experience.
And by the third time I had totell her, I had to tell her, I
had to get up out of my seat alittle bit, but I'm sitting
simultaneously.
I'm on my cell phone.

(40:04):
After my presentation, I'm on mycell phone, breaking up with my
boyfriend.
So, so I really wasn't thinkingabout nothing.
I did my presentation and then Iadjusted my body to where my
cell phone was sitting on my lapand I'm cussing a nigga out.
That's it.
I'm not thinking about anythinggoing on.

(40:24):
I'm just here to get my A and tocuss this nigga out.
It's her turn to go to do herpresentation, her presentation,
hers, not mine, hers, becausemine is done.
And she says, well, I don'treally feel comfortable doing my
presentation.
In fact, I think I'm going toleave because I'm not feeling

(40:46):
really held or safe in thisspace.
And then she said, because theway that Ebony Janice is sitting
right now, and I said, let mestop you right there.
I just finished giving apresentation entitled Black
Women's Body Ownership is aJustice Issue.
You are not in charge of what'shappening with my body, nor am I

(41:07):
even thinking about you.
But even if I was, you are notin charge of what's happening
with my body.
Mind you, classroom full ofwhite people, my allies, my
so-called allies, sayingnothing, letting this white
woman try to make So there's oneother black person in the class
and they just giggle becausethat's what we do.
We just get with each other.
And so she goes on to say, well,I think that I'm going to leave.

(41:30):
And I say, actually, let me stopKalika again.
Y'all aren't problematic becausey'all are letting her continue
this and it's violent.
And I just did a full blownpresentation on how this is
violent, but I'm the victim.
So I'm going to storm out.
So I grabbed my dick and theblack person is now full blown

(41:50):
cracking up laughing everybodyelse is sitting there looking
scared I grab my things I walkto the door and I say I just
want to let y'all know that Iain't really mad I don't really
care but she not the victim andthen I slam the door and I
believe in that I really believein that from my seat itself I
was able to say this is violentand the fact that y'all are
letting this happen is wild tome I didn't scream I didn't kick

(42:13):
I didn't fuss I didn't cuss Ijust you know called it out and
then I used my, you know, my owndesire to be the victim.
I wasn't no victim, but, youknow, I used my own desire to,
like, I want to storm out.
Yeah, I want to be centered.
I want, you know, when I walkout of here, I want y'all to be

(42:34):
like, dang, why did she do thatto Ebony Janice?
Which a little bit is whathappened, a little bit it
wasn't, but the point is, youknow, you're not about to storm
out of here, girl.
I want to go over here and watchthe Netflix series anyways.
I think, what had just came outon Netflix, the big black guy
from...
It don't matter.
The point is, Luke Cage.
Luke Cage just came out onNetflix.

(42:55):
And I'm going to get back toLuke Cage anyway.
But yeah, so I believe in that.
I believe that doing the healingwork that supports us to be
seated makes it possible for usto have really hard
conversations in the momentbecause when you let it pass,
it's more how often have youaddressed the microaggression
that happened a week ago?
And the person who aggressed ispretending like it either didn't

(43:15):
happen or didn't happen.
And so in this moment, it whatyou're doing right now is an
aggression.
So I'm going to go.
I'm being aggressive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I find, I find when I show uplike that, which I do often when
I'm like that quiet kind ofpeople really are afraid of me,
but it's okay.
Like there's a sense that thepower is real.

(43:35):
There's a lot of intersectionsand I'm sorry, Kelly, but do you
want to ask something?
There's a lot of intersectionsbetween like your work and my
work, because I also studycultural anthropology.
I've come from hip hop.
I've worked in the hip hopindustry.
So I'm just interested in howall this stuff informs your
theology like your culturalanthropology training and where

(43:55):
hip-hop fits in to like andshapes your theory your theology
and your activism because I'mvery fascinated by that yeah I'm
from Sandusky Ohio and there'syeah and there isn't really much
in Sandusky Ohio except for itsamusement park called Cedar
Point and but I grew up thefirst cassette that I ever

(44:24):
bought with my own money.
was First of the Month by BoneThugs-N-Harmony.
That's not true.
It was Thuggish Ruggish Bone byBone Thugs-N-Harmony.
Thuggish Ruggish Bone.
And of course, you know, we grewup in the era.
We grew up in the best era ofhip hop.
I don't care what anybody says.
We absolutely did.
We grew up in the best era ofhip hop.
So we all have rewound and, youknow, to learn the lyrics.

(44:47):
And I, at a very young age, wasdeeply invested in that though.
I was so interested in BoneThugs-N-Harmony.
I was interested in hip hopbefore that, but there's
something very fascinating aboutbeing from Ohio and having these
rappers from Cleveland goingviral, for lack of better words,

(45:08):
or getting all this notoriety.
And so I was really listening tothe lyrics for the first time.
I loved hip hop music beforeBone Thugs-N-Harmony, but I
would say that BoneThugs-N-Harmony, this is my
first real investment in reallylistening to the lyrics.
And because of where I'm from,this little small, predominantly

(45:29):
white, you know, kind of ruraltown is very different from
Cleveland, which is just up thestreet.
And that, as a little girl, veryfascinating to me, like what
they're talking about and whatmy lived experience is, is so
drastically different.
And so, of course, at the time,I didn't have the language for
it.
But as I got older and thenended up getting into my
cultural anthropology studies, Ilearned that what I was

(45:52):
essentially doing as a littlegirl, interrogating the lyrics
and thinking about this culturaluh the same the sameness and the
differences of what washappening for me and what was
happening for you know tatashathere are very two very
different things happening andwhat is that what is how is that

(46:13):
so how is that possible and sothat that brings in the politic
of when i define womanism uh mywomanism myself as a hip-hop
womanist it's a socio-politicalspiritual religious tool that
we're using to And hip hop isfeels important.
Definitely inspired, of course,by Joe Morgan and those who came

(46:34):
before me talking about hip hopfeminism.
What makes my hip hop womanism,it's, you know, this particular
thing is because I wassimultaneously raised by the
church and by hip hop.
And to name both of those thingsthat you will in my preachment,
you know, or whatever the workit is that I'm doing, both

(46:55):
things are important.
will be happening.
I could be in a workshop for,you know, Walmart, corporate
Walmart, and I will be quotingJay-Z at some point.
And I will be, you know, quotingfirst Corinthians at some point,
it is just going to happen.
And a part of why that feels,you know, so important to my
justice work is because I'multimately trying to reveal and

(47:18):
teach other black women that youcan be in any space and be your
actual authentic self that, thatI should There's a scholar, her
name is Dr.
Kashima Hutchinson, who doesthis comparison between Meek
Mill and Maslow.
And she says, she's basicallysaying from this perspective,
from the sociologicalperspective, why is one more

(47:40):
credible than the other?
Why, if you were in a corporateconversation and you quoted
Maslow, nobody would ask anyquestions.
But if you brought up Meek Mill,people would ask questions about
that.
But they're saying the exactsame things.
In fact, Meek Mill might be amore credible social theory than
Maslow because it's both hislived experience and he
understands it and he can, youknow, flesh it out to his peers.

(48:04):
Maslow, you got to break thatdown into, you know, language
for it to even make any sense tomost people.
And here he is doing it in like15 different verses.
And so I have been doing thesame thing when I came to
Kashima's work.
I have been doing the same thingfrom a theological perspective.
I have been asking this ethicalquestion of why is Paul credible
and Jay-Z is not credible?

(48:25):
in this conversation whenthey're saying the exact same
thing.
And so being able to bring allof that into my liberation work
or my imagination of who we willbe when we arrive at freedom,
hopefully is, not hopefully, Iknow for sure, I know this with
certainty, that we will beourselves when we arrive there,
which means to me that part ofthe work of us arriving there is

(48:48):
being ourselves, doing thatwork, interrogating lyrics as a
little girl and turning into mesaying, well, I can't separate
these things.
It's part of who it is that Iam.
And it's in my work work.
It's in my spirit work.
It's in, you know, it's in howI'm existing.
So it feels necessary andessential to include that in the

(49:09):
naming.
Awesome.
Kelly, I'm going to pass it toyou.
But before you do that, I wantedthis one thing that you were
talking about, you know, markingdifferences between the work
that the Joan Morgans of theworld are doing and what you're
doing, obviously the theologicalperspective.
But I think the other piece isas a person who came from that.
When you came to the musicindustry, I came from, I'm
younger than, I'm probably about10 years younger than Joan, but

(49:33):
I think you know, I worked inthe music industry around the
time.
I feel like the Danielle Smithsand the Joan Morgans and the
Dream Hamptons and a lot of themrepresent kind of hip-hop
feminism as a survivorship.
They survived hip-hop when somany didn't.
And so as their feminist tellingof it is what really roots it.

(49:53):
But I feel like what I loveabout what you all are doing is
like you don't need to not tosay you haven't gone through
things right but you haven't hadto survive the misogyny and the
patriarchy of hip hop in thatsame kind of way before you got
to the healing that the healingyou're leading with the healing
which I find very interestingand which I find so

(50:14):
inspirational by your generationis like we ain't got to go to
hell and back to know that wedeserve more.
Well shout out to Joe Morganshout out to you know the I'm
going to bring, you know, evenDr.
Brittany Cooper into this, youknow, you know, shout out to
them.
Hopefully you don't have to gothrough that.
They have certainly made itpossible that by the time, you

(50:37):
know, me and the homies startedthinking about it in this way,
there are things that we havelanguage.
We have, you know, much more ofa platform.
We have the ability to be ableto speak to it in such a way
because we're certainly standingon their shoulders.
And so that definitely is a partof it.
But because my hip hop womanismis from this theological
perspective, we're definitelydealing with, you know, massage

(50:59):
noir and we're dealing in thechurch context or in the
spiritual context.
I am, though I don't identify asChristian any longer, Jesus is
still a thing for me, but I aman initiated Ifa priest and I am
also a Black American woman whois, you know, grown up in the
Black church and, you know,hoodoo is certainly a part of,

(51:22):
you know, my heritage as well.
And so I've experienced so much,so much religious hierarchy,
particularly, you know, inmisogyny.
I've experienced that from jump.
I've been teaching Sunday schoolsince I was six, preaching from
the pulpit since I was eightyears old.
And like, there is no iterationof my spiritual, religious

(51:42):
leadership or cultivation thathas has not included somebody
thinking that they're in charge,right?
There is no, but I bring in mybeing a black American woman,
having, you know, navigatedthese different spaces and, you
know, realities for myselfbecause I am a black American
woman who was initiated into IFAand I have critiques.
I have critiques about, youknow, why the Babalaw is the

(52:06):
only one can do certain things.
It, I, I love what is, what IFAhas offered me.
I feel like part of my path thatis taking me deeper into the
possibility of becoming actualEbony Janisse in this lifetime.
I don't have to do this humanexperience again after this time
around, right?
So I love it.

(52:27):
This isn't a critique in thesense of like, don't do this.
This is me just saying, yeah, Igot critiques of the niggas over
here too.
Absolutely.
I have questions, I havethoughts.
And so as someone who is stillthinking about womanism, even in
this context, even from thisthis, you know, religious or
this, you know, spiritualtradition perspective, I, I'm

(52:51):
saying like, yeah, we still,we're, we're trying to move from
surviving this to thriving inthis and, and figuring out how
to continue to interrogate, um,with our elderly, you know,
maybe even me with my allow,maybe me with my Yanifa, with my
godmother and my godfather, youknow, just some of the things
that have come up for me andunderstanding the history and

(53:13):
understanding and being able topush back sometimes and say, I
don't, I don't necessarily knowif for me personally, that will
forever make sense in my journeybecause I am black American and
location makes a difference inhow we practice faith.
It's just a fact.
So, so yeah.
So shout out to the, to the fourmothers and you know, the, the,

(53:36):
what the work that they did tomake it possible that we don't
have to go through all of thesame ways, you know, have the
language and, It's so muchprivilege now to be able to say,
stop right there.
And let's, you know, let's talkabout this ashy.
By the way, I'm from Youngstown,Ohio.
So I know the Ohio and I'm fromYoungstown, Ohio church because

(54:00):
my grandfather was a pastor inchurch.
So, so, so, so I get it.
Go ahead, Kel.
I'm sorry.
I'm trying to decide whichdirection I want to go.
I think the curiosity is comingup.
for me because um you'vementioned so many greats who are

(54:20):
still here um what does it looklike for y'all as community do
y'all come together um how howare you all in relationship with
each other across the differentwaves of womanism I I don't have
that are the scholars that I'vementioned I don't I have not
hung out with any of them maybeother than in some ways Dr.

(54:43):
Monica Coleman um I am a fan.
I'm a fan.
I'm a fan.
I'm a fan.
I just stopped myself becausethe next part of that is.
Yeah, I'm a fan.
And I will say that the elderwomanists have affirmed my work

(55:04):
in such profound ways.
Prior to All the Black Girls AreActivists coming out, I had an
altar that I built specificallyfor All the Black Girls Are
Activists.
And my number one, and every dayI would go to this altar and I
would write on this little greensheets, these little green
sheets of paper, my prayer forthe book.
And the most consistent prayerthat I would drop into that

(55:26):
space is, I pray that the elderwoman will receive my book and
be proud of me.
And This is specific languagethat I use that they will
receive my book well and beproud of me.
And I was doing a conversationwith Dr.
Melanie Jones, who is over theKatie Geneva Cannon and womanist

(55:46):
studies.
I just made up that title of thename, but basically, you know, I
was doing a Facebookconversation with her right as
the book came out.
And Dr.
Anita Weems, who I talk aboutprobably an introduction and
maybe a couple other times, butshe's in the chat.
And somebody has said somethingand she said, yeah, somebody

(56:08):
gave her the book and she's readit.
And she just said, I'm veryproud of you.
That's just like...
you niggas can't tell menothing.
Like anybody else, you can haveall the critiques you want of
me.
You know what I'm saying?
One of the first wave woman is,even if she didn't say, I
thought you were, I think you'rea great writer.
I think you're, you know, abelievable scholar.

(56:30):
And she didn't even say that tome.
She said, I'm very proud of you.
And so, but there were so manyother, there are so many other
elders who have doubt about thebook and, you know, about what
we're thinking.
And they affirm and they agreethat there certainly is
something very unique andparticular about what's
happening right now.
As far as community, I feel likethe women in general, like my

(56:51):
girlfriends, you know, weidentify as womanist and or we
identify or a lot of mygirlfriends identify as black
feminist.
But there are quite a few of uswho identify as womanist as
well.
And I don't see us asparticularly different.
I think about Alice Walker, whatshe said when she came to the
term of womanism is that at thevery least, we should be able to
name ourselves.

(57:11):
And so I don't have a judgmentof people who not who don't call
themselves womanist,particularly black women who
don't call themselves womanist,but that, you know, we're just
having conversations.
We're just in conversation witheach other.
Like, like we, here we are rightnow, you know, earlier when I
was talking about that, I'vebeen thinking about this, this

(57:32):
idea of reincarnation.
When I say that I've beenthinking that I'm in the group
chat, like y'all, I'm talkingout loud to the homies, you
know, I'm saying these words outloud.
I'm giving them the opportunityto, to, you know, the, I say
that, you know, we are, we sparkthings when we are in
conversation with each other andwe co-create knowledge with each

(57:53):
other when we're in conversationwith each other is that you say
something that we've had thatmoment several times, even in
this conversation where youmight be saying something and
I'm like, you know, I'm going tolean in a little bit because
something that you're saying islanguage for me that I, I've,
I've experienced that, but Ididn't have that language.
And now I get to live with thatlanguage in such a way.

(58:14):
that a week from now, somethingyou just said to me today is
going to create something new.
Or even in this moment,something new, new thought, an
emerging thought is alreadyhappening just as a result of
this conversation.
So we're doing, that is how weshould be thinking.
Yeah.
We should be thinking incommunity with each other.
And so I would say that's whatme and the homies are doing in

(58:36):
general.
And they are, my contemporariesare in the hierarchy of
affirmation.
I write about that in the nextbook, The Hierarchy of
Affirmation, which for Blackwomen.
But in the hierarchy ofaffirmation, my contemporaries,
like the homies whose work Ilove, you know, who are, I
mentioned, you know, SheilaMarie, I mentioned Lauren Ashe,

(58:57):
I mentioned these, you know,these other Black women who are
thinking, you know, I'm thinkingwith them and when they tell me
good job or when they say thisis amazing, when they say that
is, I needed that or, you know,when both of you are like, yes,
you know, even in thisconversation, it's such a, it is
only only beneath elder Blackwomen, right?

(59:17):
It's the only thing that's been,like, my contemporaries is,
like, number two, like, y'allcan't tell me nothing.
The homies said I saidsomething, so I said something,
and that's it.
That's what that, I think,community looks like, is me and
the homies just kind of in thegroup chat and, you know, in our
time together, just thinkingtogether and what's coming from
that.

(59:37):
Yes, thank you for that.
That's one.
We want every Black woman tohave a group chat.
Yes! no black woman alone wewant folks to find community so
yeah I really double tap on thatand you were saying you want
every black woman to have agroup chat I feel like for deep
reasons I want every black womanto have a group chat because

(01:00:00):
some of the stuff y'all beposting online they need to be
in a group chat get it get itoff public and put it in a group
chat baby boy we don't need tosee that your therapist your
journal or your group chatshould be seeing that that's not
public oh you would just Iactually, Kelly, that thing I
was watching earlier withLaverne Cox, Dominique basically

(01:00:21):
told her that.
She's like, girl, some of whatyou said in that post, you
should have been in a group chatwith us.
That was not for social media.
I felt that in my heart.
That was not for public.
Yeah, that was not for public,girl.
As we wrap up, I want to giveyou space to see if there's
anything you had to ask usbecause to your point, these
conversations can be generativefor everybody and if there's

(01:00:44):
something that you want to askus before you know we wrap
everything up if you don't it'sfine but just wanted to make
space for you either saysomething you ask question or
say something you want to leavefolks with before we leave I
would love to give you all theopportunity to reflect something
major that came up in the lastconversation in your last
podcast and what you're thinkingabout for the next podcast

(01:01:04):
because sometimes folk be eitherjust being introduced in this
conversation so get a chance toknow that y'all be having fire
conversations all the time whatwhat was dope about the last
conversation what is the nextconversation that you're
thinking about having that youknow will continue to take this
womanist work forward well dangI wasn't prepared to do work I

(01:01:29):
love it I love it what I reallyliked about the last
conversation is it was sointergenerational so we had my
aunt on to talk about herspiritual journey and then we
had Ken Kendra's cousin on.
And it's the first time we'vehad family on the podcast.
So it's interesting to hear myaunt's perspective of our

(01:01:52):
family, faith, the traditions,and then how I experienced it.
It was also that thing aboutmemory, things that sometimes
that are traumatic that we pushto the side and say, oh, no, I
don't remember that.
And then as it came backforward, I was like, oh, wait,
that meant a thing to me.

(01:02:13):
Let me kind of grapple And sohow do we have more of those
spaces?
Because I think a lot of timeswe we generalize elder black
women as still being deeplyrooted in their faith tradition
in the same way.
And many of them are alsointerrogating their faith and
trying to grapple their thingsthat my mom is talking about.

(01:02:33):
I'm like, I have so manyquestions right now.
So that definitely is somethingthat I'm thinking about from
future.
I mean, from the past.
from our last most recentpodcast what about you Ken
actually I'm thinking about thatpodcast because secondly that
was like the one before the lastone I'm thinking about the

(01:02:55):
intersection between the lastpodcast and that one because
Keisha my cousin was on thatepisode and it was interesting
to hear her talk about herdeconstruction of her faith
because I never heard her saythat word before so like there
were things that I knew aboutwhat she was contending with but
I didn't hear that language soI'm like oh I meeting my cousin
again for the first time myfirst cousin who I grew up with

(01:03:18):
playing in the backyard andgetting whoopings with you know
hearing her really break downher experience but also kind of
hearing in it Kelly I don't knowif you heard this like there was
something that Auntie Debrabrought to the table that I felt
like gave Keisha permission topursue what could be next for
her and that deconstruction wasa continuous process and that

(01:03:42):
maybe there is another spiritualpath for her And that just
because she hasn't found it yet,it's okay.
So there was some liberationthere.
But then also to have my auntwho was in the last episode with
your pastor, my aunt who's alsoan executive pastor and
currently a doctoral student indivinity, talk about first her

(01:04:03):
experience as a black womangrowing up in a church with a
father who's a pastor and now onher own journey of leading.
And some of her key pointsaround like when you're in a
meeting and if it don't feelright it's probably because
you're probably supposed to beleading the meeting and that was
like how to wrestle with hercalling was I was like ooh but
also I got excited because shelistened to the last episode
with Keisha and she hadn't heardany of that stuff about her

(01:04:25):
deconstruction and she was likeoh my god that was profound I'm
so proud of my nieces that youknow that I got to see that so
just to see my family in thesedifferent spaces of their own
womenist path and being able tohave provided platform for that
on the podcast this season isreally like is really giving me
all the things I love that.

(01:04:45):
I'm so glad that y'all said thatbecause I haven't listened to
the last episode, but they justinspired me to have some
conversation.
There's some, it makes me feel alittle emotional because in my
family there, I don't know thatthere are a lot of people that I
could have that conversationwith.
But when you talked abouthearing your cousin say
something and it surprised you,I want to figure out what it

(01:05:08):
looks like to try to start theconversation because I don't
even know who might surprise meover here you know I don't even
know I just be all out here likeand because they're not they
might not be there which isperfectly fine I don't know
where they are right so that wasbeautiful I'm glad that you said

(01:05:29):
that I'm glad that I asked thatquestion I'm glad that you asked
it too yeah we haven't had timeto reflect and I think for
future it's how do we createmore spaces for black women to
have these conversations off ofsocial media but in can We had a
live recording for Mother's Dayand it was really powerful to

(01:05:50):
bring 12 black women together totalk about mothering and all of
its different forms.
I mean, it was healing for somepeople.
It was revealing for somepeople.
And we want to be able to domore of that.
So, yeah.
So takeaways, takeaways.
I'll give you anotheropportunity, Ebony Janice, if
there's any other takeaways fromthe conversation or like just

(01:06:11):
last words you want to leavefolks with.
before we go.
The last words that I would liketo leave people with before we
go is that, for Black women inparticular, is that it is okay
for you to pursue yourself.
That I believe that if there issin, if that is language that

(01:06:35):
you have for yourself, it willbe if you leave this earth as
not actual you.
I believe that your divine workYour holy work is becoming
actual you.
You know why I believe that?
Because I believe the reasonthat Jesus Christ came to earth
was to reveal to us what Godenfleshed would look like.

(01:06:58):
Now, here you are, God enfleshedas the opportunity to reveal
something to us about God thatwe can only know through actual
you.
The Bible says the earth isgroaning out with labor pains,
waiting for the revealing of thesons of God, the The earth is in
pain waiting for you to berevealed.
And so pursuing yourself,pursuing your sovereign self,

(01:07:23):
pursuing your whole self.
If that is the work that you aredoing, you are doing the work
that you were called here inthis human experience to be
doing.
I believe that all my heart andall my soul.
May the Lord have a blessing tothe readers, hearers and doers.
Amen.
Amen.

(01:07:43):
That was a benediction rightthere.
I also think on a side note, Dr.
Tate, I think that's the titleof the episode.
The earth is in pain waiting foryou to be revealed.
My God.
Why don't you church at the veryend?
That's how Black women go.
I'll be trying to hold it in,but it is becoming out my scores

(01:08:05):
and stuff.
Absolutely.
My takeaway is around spiritualleadership.
Who do I want to be as aspiritual leader?

UNKNOWN (01:08:13):
I

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:13):
yeah, that's my takeaway.
You can, before you say goodbyeto the people.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:18):
Yo, that's the title.
You're, you're, the earth is inpain waiting for you to be
revealed.
I mean, and just this idea ofif, if sin is a thing, leaving
the earth, having never beenyourself, that is a word.
And I feel like it's, I embody,I like, I feel like I live my
life like that, but I feel likeI spend, I do so much talking in
circles, trying to talk to youngpeople about that.
And I feel like I could justgive them that.

(01:08:40):
I'm going to say, Ebony Janicesaid, sin is a thing.
If, leaving earth, having neverbeen yourself.
My God.
That's it.
I'm curious if you had any othertakeaways from the episode that
you wanted to share.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:55):
Um, yeah.
So this was actually somethingthat I had written down for the,
uh, potential episode titleuntil we kind of got more into
the conversation, but yourdivine work is becoming actual
you.
I feel like that is somethingthat really is reminiscent of
the entire episode.
I think, um, And that is atakeaway that I think we can all

(01:09:19):
kind of return to no matterwhat.
It's just remembering that youare not doing yourself any
favors.
And again, this is interestingas someone who has not really
grown up particularly religiousor grown up in the church.
But what I have heard frompeople who have is that there is
almost a losing sight of selfthat happens sometimes because

(01:09:43):
you were trying to be and actaccordingly to what is expected
of you from that space.
But what Ebony Janice is sharingand offering to us is that it's
actually divine for you to justbe who you are and for you to
show up authentically and foryou to nurture who you are.

(01:10:05):
And so, again, as a queer Blackwoman, the power in that for
other queer Black women to justtake that as the message as
they're you know engaging or notin a religious or spiritual
practice it's just that's abeautiful beautiful takeaway

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:24):
yeah amen I agree I agree I wholeheartedly like
everything hit me with a ton ofbricks but I really like this
idea of like sin being a thingthat if sin is a thing leaving
earth not having been yourselfis a grave sin is like you know
how liberating that'll be for somany people who are still in
this moment, you know, like Isaid, I brought up Laverne Cox

(01:10:46):
earlier.
Like here's this woman that isthe pinnacle of what it means to
be a trans woman in thecelebrity status, right?
Like she is the most famousblack trans woman in the world.
And she's still wrestling with,like, is being okay to be
herself in proxy to this, like,white, blonde, blue-eyed,
26-year-old MAGA police officer.

(01:11:07):
And there was some context,additionally, that made that a
thing.
And what the other girls weresaying is, how can we then come
out to be ourselves, right?
And show up how we need to showup when the person who is the
pinnacle of, like, where weaspire to be still feels that
way.
And so the greatest gift, backto her piece about liberation
and wrestling, and ease, thegreatest gift we can give other

(01:11:28):
generations of younger Blackwomen, whether they're queer,
whether they're cis, whetherthey're trans, whether they're
poor, whether they're rich, isto show them that being
themselves is their most divineassignment.
What a gift.
What a gift.
Thank you.
We are so grateful.
We are so, so, so, so, sograteful.

(01:11:49):
First of all, not to go on atangent, but it's surreal for me
to be sitting right now.
Me and Kelly, we line thepodcast last year in Martha's
Vineyard wrestling with like ourquasi bougie-ness of being in
Martha's Vineyard talking aboutthe podcast and all that stuff
and to be here having such aprofound conversation in this
place at this time for BlackAugust after seeing Reverend

(01:12:11):
Otis Moss III preach yesterdayat the Union Chapel and just
feeling like I didn't know thistrip was going to be so, you
know, was going to fill me upthis way but this is just a
blessing.
So thank you so much.
Absolutely.
We Where can people find you?
How should they be connectingwith you?
Ebony Janice.
I am at Ebony Janice everywhere.

(01:12:33):
E-B-O-N-Y-J-A-N-I-C-E.
That's Ebony Janice.
And I just kind of aged myselfby, you know, you got to say
your telephone number and thenyou got to repeat it again.
So that's where I am everywhere.
And I actually would say thatthe most easeful way to connect
with me is to subscribe to mynewsletter at ebonygenese.com

(01:12:57):
particularly because I really dobe you know saying a word or two
in that newsletter and I'm aCapricorn I don't love
notifications so I'll never spamyou ever never I will say
anything and get on out your wayso my newsletter usually has all
the things that's happeningright there awesome we'll be
sure to share that in the shownotes thank you so much for
being with us today we reallyenjoyed this conversation I'm

(01:13:19):
feeling I'm feeling spirituallyhigh right now I know it was the
blood I know it You learnedanother

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:38):
church song.
Add that to your arsenal, boo.
Look, Ebony Janice, I am not achurch person.
I did not grow up in the churchand I've been very vocal about
that on the pod throughoutseason one and as we ease into
season two.
But I have been sitting hereliterally leaned in head in my

(01:13:58):
hand kicking my feet like I feellike I've been in church in this
episode and so I just appreciateeverything and I'm still stuck
on you know your initialcomments on your name because
that's somebody whose name isoften misunderstood misspoken
easily you know the firstquestion out of people's mouths

(01:14:20):
is do you go by a nickname andit's like no know me for who I
am and my name is in this worldfor a reason And so I just, I've
been stuck on that since yousaid it.
And this whole thing has feltspiritual in a beautiful way.
So I just, I appreciate thatcorrection from you initially to
start us off.
And I knew, I knew it.

(01:14:41):
I just, I'm blaming on low bloodsugar coming into this
recording.
I knew it.
We've like, like Kendra said,we've talked about your work.
I've been a big fan of your workfor many, many years now.
And I knew it.
And I just, You know, don't letme, don't let, catch me out here
calling you by anything otherthan Ebony Janice.
Thank you for saying that.

(01:15:02):
I'm just,

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:03):
I know we are at the end and we ain't even, I don't
even know if we still are.
So this is just for me to saythis to y'all.
Two things.
Thank you for saying thatbecause I had this thing, it's
just a very womanist thing I'mabout to say.
Sometimes when, because mybackground is Christian and that
isn't the case anymore and it's,it has been a violent experience

(01:15:24):
in my family in a lot of ways.
that when people when I'mtalking as actual Ebony Janice
and people affirm that it feltlike church I feel like when
Suge is like see God you knowsee Paul God love sinners too it
made me feel like you know Idon't not as not the sinner part

(01:15:46):
but it's that like I want to sayto my family sometimes like you
don't even see that yourministry would never be able to
do this it doesn't make itbetter or worse.
It's that I was called in thistime to this.
For such a time as this.
The other thing that I wanted tosay is when y'all was singing, I
know it was the blood.
It reminded me I had to go dowork in Tampa with my Ianifa

(01:16:10):
just last week.
I'm a baby priest in a lot ofways.
There are things that I've neverdone before.
It was my first time doing myown animal sacrifice in this
particular animal.
I was singing.
I know what's the plan while Iwas doing it and the most of

(01:16:32):
these women are black Americanwomen so they're just like how
did you get this way because Imy way to God was Jesus Christ
and I am not someone who had atheological shift or a religious
you know like shift and nownothing from my from my life is
not true anymore nigga how Icame to God was through Jesus

(01:16:55):
Christ so there are momentswhere I'm going to be like Jesus
and that's not going to change.
It just is what it is.
So that tickled me.
I would just cry baby but Ithought I ended on that note.
I really was.
I know it was blood.
I know that's right.
Thank you for being here.
We hope you get some rest.

(01:17:15):
I know it's night time there.
I got another call in a minutebut I'm a little jet lagged so
it's okay because I'm going tobe woke until 2 o'clock in the
morning.
It's fine.
You take good care of yourself.
Thank you.
Y'all take care.
Peace.

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