October 14, 2024 • 27 mins
Do your hiring managers trust you? What about your manager? Recruiting is really hard if internal stakeholders don't trust you.
In this episode, I’m joined by Brooke Wheeler, a Talent Acquisition Leader who has mastered the art of building trust internally. She shares insights on building trust with hiring managers, overcoming feelings of being undervalued, and the significance of curiosity in recruitment. Brooke shares personal experiences and insights on empowering teams, managing up, and finding advocates within the workplace, emphasizing that effective communication and a proactive approach are essential for success in talent acquisition.
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//TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 INTRODUCTION
02:24 The Importance of Internal Branding
06:03 Overcoming Undervaluation in Recruitment
10:11 Navigating Company Culture and Positivity
13:32 Curiosity as a Tool for Building Relationships
17:40 Empowering Teams and Managing Up
21:28 Finding Advocates in the Workplace
RECOMMENDED NEXT EPISODE
→ #12: The Unstoppable Power of a Recruiter's Brand, with Anna Morgan
****
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brooke Wheeler (00:01):
I know I can't just walk in and say, you have
to trust me, please. I'm I'mgood at my job.
Rhona Pierce (00:06):
In talent acquisition, trust isn't given,
it's earned. But how do youbuild that trust and become more
than just another recruiter?Brooke Wheeler is a talent
acquisition leader with over 25years of experience. Known for
transforming recruitmentstrategies and building high
performing teams, she joined meto share insights on elevating
(00:27):
your TA career and making alasting impact through internal
branding.
Brooke Wheeler (00:34):
If hiring managers don't understand what
you're about, why would theytrust you with their jobs?
Rhona Pierce (00:41):
What's one mistake that you see TA professionals
make when they're trying
Brooke Wheeler (00:45):
to build their brand internally? We're the face
of the company. Our job is tosell the company. If you start
feeling like you're not aligningwith your company's values,
you're in the wrong job.
Rhona Pierce (01:01):
What advice would you give to TA professionals who
want to be seen as more thanjust recruiters, but as like
strategic business partners?
Brooke Wheeler (01:13):
Come to the table with solutions. But if you
are just waiting on other peopleto tell you the answers, you're
never gonna make
Rhona Pierce (01:21):
it very far. But what if your leader feels
threatened by your efforts tobuild your internal brand?
Brooke Wheeler (01:28):
You certainly need to respect your leader in
some way, but
Rhona Pierce (01:35):
Why do you work in talent acquisition? Like, why do
you do what you do?
Brooke Wheeler (01:39):
Oh my gosh. That's a great question.
Probably like everyone, I fellinto talent acquisition just
straight out of college. Butwhat I love is being able to
talk to so many people and learnso many different stories.
Unfortunately, I've beenunemployed this year, and that's
what I miss the most.
And that's what I find myselfgravitating toward. It's just
(02:00):
being able to hear people'sstories and learn why they love
the work that they do. Maybeit's just like the natural
voyeur in all of us. We reallylike to learn, you know, what
other people do and and how theythrive in their jobs.
Rhona Pierce (02:13):
Yeah. I I find that now that I'm not working in
corporate and that I'm notactively recruiting, it's really
one of the things that I miss.It's like hearing people's
stories day in, day out. 6, 7, 8people you talk to in one day,
all different. That is soamazing.
I think when people hear theword personal branding, they
think external. They thinkLinkedIn. They think any social
(02:37):
media. But today, we're gonnatalk about the different the
other side of personal branding,which is internally. So what
does building your brandinternally entail?
How do you go about doing that?
Brooke Wheeler (02:52):
Right. So many different ways, but the number
one thing that we as recruiters,as talent acquisition
specialists need to be ourtrusted advisors. And if people
don't know you, if hiringmanagers don't understand what
you're about and what your heartis in it for, why would they
trust you with their jobs? Andthat's really what we're after
(03:15):
is becoming that trustedadvisor. And, you know,
throughout my career, I thinkthat I've done that well in the
sense of gaining their trust,but also doing what I say I'm
gonna do and caring about theirbusiness.
And we as TA and in recruiting,we're stewards of the brand of
(03:35):
the company, and it's our job tobe that face for the company.
And so part of that is just,like I said, doing what you say
you're gonna do, being curious,wanting to ask questions. Tell
me about your business. What'seven the product that's on the
other end? And I think that'swhere you start building your
brand and being that steward tothe company.
Rhona Pierce (03:57):
I agree. And I think I know a lot of people, me
included, have had periods intheir life when they felt in
their professional life, whenthey felt undervalued or
overlooked. Have you had anytimes? Can you share any
personal stories where you feltundervalued or overlooked within
(04:18):
your organization and how youwent about overcoming that?
Brooke Wheeler (04:22):
Yeah. And I'm I'm sure I could tell plenty
from the beginning of my career,but most recently, I joined a
company that unfortunately, theyhad laid off their entire HR
department, their entirerecruiting department. And so I
came in with a new HR departmentand, you know, the leaders were
it was kind of a wild west. Theleaders were giving all of their
(04:42):
jobs out to agencies. And sowhen we walked in the door, most
everyone was very grateful.
They were like, oh my gosh,please. Like, what can I give
you? But there was the CTO whohad kind of come he may be
created the Wild West show. Hebrought in a lot of his own
agencies that he had worked withbefore. And, you know, I kinda
(05:02):
had one other thing, I guess,not going for me.
I am an everything but ITrecruiter. And so he was like,
who are you? You don't know mybusiness, and I didn't. You
know, so that was kind of a Ireally had to dig in to say,
okay. I know.
I can't just walk in and say,you have to trust me, please.
I'm I'm good at my job. So Ireally had to start a process
(05:24):
where I gained his trust. Andthe very first thing that I did
was I didn't do it to be sneaky,but I went to his direct
reports, and I started buildingtheir trust because they're the
ones, like, in the trenches, inthe weeds that need these hires.
So I started, you know,everything that I do, a biweekly
meeting with them.
(05:45):
In fact, we probably did it atleast every week, if not every 3
or 4 days at first. You know,biweekly meeting with them to
learn what would exactly what Isaid about, you know, how you
build your brand. Tell me aboutwhat what I said about, you
know, how you build your brand.Tell me about what you do. Tell
me about the people that youneed so that they knew that I
was caring about their group andtheir department.
I learned about their culture.Like, what does it take to be be
(06:06):
in your department and who arethe people that work well and
thrive here? So it really isjust about, you know, baby steps
to gain that trust and just bevery direct. Like, I don't know
exactly what's happening or whatyou need, but I really wanna
learn, and I really wanna knowmore about your business. And so
slowly but surely over time, hesaw that I'm I'm here for you.
(06:28):
I want to do a good job for you.And, you know, once he saw a
couple of wins, he was able toto be he really was our greatest
advocate.
Rhona Pierce (06:36):
That's an amazing story, and I think every
recruiter listening can thinkback to a time where someone was
like because there's alwayssomeone internally who's like,
no. Not you. For whateverreason, they're anti recruiter
or for whatever reason. Sothat's a great story. At the end
of the day, what we wanna do isbuild trust and become partners,
(06:59):
And the only way of doing thatis really like you did, like, I
call it infiltrate, talk topeople.
Brooke Wheeler (07:07):
Right. Right. Well, and, you know, it's I
don't know about you as a humanme. I'm not great at tooting my
own horn. And so my work standsfor itself.
But sometimes you do have to youhave to learn how and that's
part of building your brand. Andmaybe you have a boss or someone
who's really good at tootingyour horn for you. You know,
(07:28):
I've always had those people whoare, you know, my greatest
advocates. And I think you haveto find those folks within your
organization that can help andsay, you know, kind of prop you
up when you're not able to do ityourself.
Rhona Pierce (07:40):
Exactly. So what's one thing that you wish someone
had told you about building yourcareer and your brand earlier in
your journey?
Brooke Wheeler (07:53):
Yeah. I think that we all think that we have
to know everything to be theexpert and you don't. So I
really wish someone had saidjust trust your gut because when
we walk into a room with hiringmanagers, with candidates, we
are the expert. We could know 5%more than them, but we typically
know more. And I think it's justto trust yourself and trust your
(08:15):
gut that you are the subjectmatter expert, that you have
value.
You have something to add. Therewere so many times when, you
know, imposter syndrome withthat that dirty word we all
hate, it's it's gonna jump inand it's gonna hurt jump out
rather. And, it's just how tohow to flick it away and say,
like, I can help here.
Rhona Pierce (08:35):
Yeah. And that's something that many guests on
those podcasts and I have spokenabout many times through all the
episodes. It's like, yes, youmight not be a technical person
because you might not know howto do half of the jobs that
you're recruiting for, butyou're the expert at hiring.
Mhmm. That's yours thing.
(08:56):
You have to stand in that power.100%. So how do you approach
internal branding, like, on adaily basis? What does that look
like?
Brooke Wheeler (09:07):
You know, some I've been very fortunate where I
have some corporations who havean incredible career development
path. And you know, there wereso many times early in my career
when, like we said, I didn'ttrust myself. It didn't feel
like I was the leader. But nomatter what role you're in,
where you sit in theorganization, you have the
(09:29):
ability to lead. And if youdon't feel confident in your
leadership, find some classes.
And I I know LinkedIn Learninghas some, and I was able to
take, you know, clearcommunication or some, you know,
conflict is always difficult forme. So really how to to lean
into conflict in a healthy wayand, you know, I was very
(09:50):
fortunate to have those classesavailable to me, but there's so
many different opportunities.But it is. It's we you know,
just every day, just a littlepebble in your bucket to to keep
building your voice in a way.
Rhona Pierce (10:04):
Looking back, because I know that you've
managed many TA teams. You are aTA leader. What's one mistake
that you see TA professionalsmake when they're trying to
build their brand internally?
Brooke Wheeler (10:17):
I hope I don't offend anyone like this. But,
you know, we, NTA, we're theface of the company. We are the
the first line. We are sometimesthe first conversation someone
has with the organization, andour job is to sell the company.
And if you if you start feelinglike you're not aligning with
your company's values, you're inthe wrong job.
(10:40):
That's I've seen so manyrecruiters who, you know, maybe
on the back end and maybe notout loud to a candidate, but I
just there's just a lot ofnegativity like, I'm not saying
you have to always loveeverything your company does,
but you kinda have to drink theKool Aid in a in a bit of a way,
and you really do need to alwayshave positivity and, you know,
(11:02):
speak highly of your company andnot be the person who is talking
behind people's backs or saying,oh, this guy, blah, blah, blah.
We have to be that positive faceto the company. And I think
that's I hope I've done a greatjob of doing that with my
organizations. You know, oninternal branding, I speak more
about my company than I do aboutmyself. And that's the, you
know, maybe a mistake that I'vemade.
(11:24):
And so it's certainly somethingto always remember. You know, I
know you spoke with Anna Morganabout your external brand, and
that's you never wanna forgetthat either. You also want when
you're on LinkedIn, find yourown voice and find what makes
you the most valuable personoutside of just your company.
Rhona Pierce (11:41):
Yeah. And it's true what you said. I mean and
I've said this on otherepisodes. I think it I I don't
remember with who it was, butthere's always some BS at the
company. Right?
Right. Of course. Like, nocompany is perfect. But at the
end of the day, you work therebecause the good outweighs the
BS, hopefully. Right?
(12:02):
Yes. You're not painting a rosypicture for candidates and
everything because sometimespeople the first time they ever
hear about the company is fromyou. Like you said, yes. You're
the face of the company. But ifyou just say the truth and
approach things, but you have tobe in that positive mindset
about your company.
Because the BS, yes, explain itto people. I never an advocate
(12:26):
for hiding it.
Brooke Wheeler (12:27):
Correct. But
Rhona Pierce (12:28):
there's positive things about the BS. Right?
There's positive ways to toexplain it to people. But I know
for me, the second I'm notaligned with the company or,
like, the BS starts outweighingthe good, I know it's time to
(12:48):
leave. And those few weeks ormonths and now, unfortunately,
years of someone's in thissituation that it can take you
to find another place, youreally have to work on your
mindset and not presenting yourcompany in a bad light because
(13:09):
that kills your brandinternally.
Because the hiring manager orsomeone else will know from
something a candidate says thatyou are not being the best
representation of the company,and that starts killing your
brand internally and killing thetrust that they have with you.
Right.
Brooke Wheeler (13:29):
And I get yeah. It all goes back to trust.
Rhona Pierce (13:31):
Yeah. So talking about trust, how do you build
that trust and rapport withinternal stakeholders,
especially those that don't havea deep understanding of TA, but
we know everyone thinks theyknow how to hire. Right?
Brooke Wheeler (13:46):
Right. Why do I need you? I think a lot of it is
curiosity. And that's, again,why we're so good at our jobs
and why we're great interviewersbecause we're curious about
people's lives. And I think wejust extend that same quality to
our hiring managers.
Tell me about your business. CanI come to your lunch and learns?
(14:08):
Can I attend your salesmeetings? Make sure that you
have constant communication withthem what's happening,
especially when you're doingthat intake call, really get
curious on their business. Andthen be honest.
I have, you know, sat in anintake meeting and like, I have
never recruited for this in mylife, but I'm gonna figure it
(14:29):
out and you're gonna help me andshow up at their team meetings
with a couple of profiles andshow the entire team like this
is what I think. How does thisalign with what you're looking
for and get their feedback? Andit is it's just a matter of
making sure they know you'rethere for them. Quick story. I
had a hiring manager that it wasa large, maybe 200 customer
(14:51):
service organization, and I wasmoved on to be the recruiter for
them.
And I noticed a lot of not maybepushback defensiveness, just non
responsiveness from the hiringmanager. And, you know, I could
have said, well, she must notneed me, but I decided to just
ask a very direct question. Idon't feel like I'm getting a
(15:12):
lot from you. Is there somethingI can do better that would make
you wanna work with me? And shesaid, I've had 3 recruiters
before you and they all, youknow, didn't send good
candidates.
They barely called me. Theyasked to be moved off of this
department. And her beingvulnerable to me allowed me to
(15:34):
then say, okay. Well, these arethe steps that I think we should
take. I'm not offeringperfection, but I'm offering you
my service and and let's make aplan that works for you.
And, you know, we put somethings in place with
communication, with meetings,with me interviewing her best
talent so that I could learn,you know, the profile. And we
(15:55):
were able to really kind of turnaround that department because
we got better hires, bettertenure, better happiness in
their job. I'm not sure. I'mlike, we're not this horse when
I need it.
Rhona Pierce (16:06):
Yeah. No. That's such a powerful illustration of
really what it means to be apartner and to build trust.
Because at behind everything,like, yeah, we can talk about
hiring managers and how theythink they know everything, and
they can talk about how theyhate us and how we're not
needed. But when you like,behind a hiring manager is a
(16:30):
human.
Behind a recruiter is a human.And historically, it doesn't
matter what you're doing. How dohumans connect? And it's through
talking.
Brooke Wheeler (16:42):
Right. Novel concepts sometimes. Right?
Rhona Pierce (16:45):
I know there's a saying in Spanish. So I'm from
Panama. Spanish is my firstlanguage. And there's a saying
in Panama that it's like, peopleunderstand each other when they
talk. And it just means likewhen things are out of whack,
when everyone's mad, everything,like, the simplest way to get a
relationship back on track is todo what you did.
(17:07):
Just reach out to the person,ask the question that you're
wanting to know. Don't make upstories in your head. Just talk.
That could solve so manyproblems.
Brooke Wheeler (17:18):
100%. I love that. I love that.
Rhona Pierce (17:21):
So what advice would you give to TA
professionals who want to beseen as more than just
recruiters, but as, like,strategic business partners?
Brooke Wheeler (17:33):
It's come to the table with solutions. And that
sounds, again, very simple. Butif you are just waiting on, you
know, other people to tell youthe answers, you're never gonna
make it very far. Truly comewith ideas on what are some
different ways to recruitbecause we kind of all get into
(17:53):
our bad habits of just Oh, letme go to LinkedIn or let me do
this, but not that everyone hasto be a super sourcer. But what
are some organizations thatyou're a part of that we should
call?
Are there any, you know, simplenewsletters that you get? That's
probably not even accurateanymore, but people that you
follow online. But, you know, Ithink that it's just a matter of
(18:14):
showing up every day, ready tohelp ready to serve and, you
know, be that matchmaker thatyou are.
Rhona Pierce (18:21):
I love that advice. As a TA leader, how do
you empower your team to buildinternal relationships?
Brooke Wheeler (18:29):
I just like to get out of the way in the sense
of I will always be my team'sgreatest advocate. I will
introduce you. I will make sureyou know, you know, who you need
to work with. I will setexpectations with, I expect, you
know, the communication to beproactive and not reactive. I
expect that you have meetingswith all of your hiring
(18:52):
managers.
You'd, you know, have simple doan intake. But I wanna make sure
that you build a relationshipand that it's not through me.
I've had, gosh, unfortunately, acouple of of leaders of my
bosses who I would get introuble if I reached out to the
CEO without them on the email orin the meeting, and that doesn't
(19:14):
empower me to do my job. So Ihope that I've learned from some
of my great leaders who look atme and say, you're the expert,
you're the one who knows what'shappening on the ground. So
you're the one that should be incharge of having these
communications.
And then as a leader, of course,always being available to, you
know, help with any issues thatcome up or if there's any kind
(19:36):
of miscommunication. But I'malways the one that's gonna say,
well, you know, so and so is theexpert. Let's call them in on
this conversation, becausethat's how people learn, and how
they can become the next us, andthe leadership is if we're
letting them do their jobs.
Rhona Pierce (19:51):
So I was looking through your LinkedIn profile as
I prepared for this, and I sawsome of the amazing
recommendations that you have onLinkedIn. And now I know why.
Just getting out of the way ineverything that you've said and,
like, being that champion forthe people, like, speaking the
(20:15):
name of your teams in rooms thatthey're nodding and bringing
them into it and, like, lettingthem know it's okay to speak to
someone higher up than me or tomy boss. That one shows
confidence in who you are and,like, in your professional
abilities, but also it show it'sa sign of a great leader. So I
(20:38):
can see why you have such greatrecommendations.
Brooke Wheeler (20:41):
And and I've had good mentors in that as well. So
I'm I'm I'm always glad to be onthis side and being able to copy
and mimic that.
Rhona Pierce (20:49):
And now you've you've brought up a good point
of something that I just thoughtabout for someone who's working
with a leader who isn't thatopen to them talking to others,
especially higher up, but theperson wants to build their
internal brand, I could seewhere a boss could see that as,
(21:12):
like, competition. Intimidating.Yeah. Would you have some advice
for someone who finds themselvesin that situation?
Brooke Wheeler (21:21):
Yeah. The advice that I wish I'd given myself at
this time in my career maybe iswhat we're looking for there.
And you certainly need torespect your leader in some way.
But I think, you know, havingadvocates of their peers, I
found was very important so thatthey could bring me into certain
(21:43):
conversations if they need if ifwas something that I needed to
be a part of, and maybe myleader wasn't bringing me into
that conversation. So I I wentto the mentor that I had in the
company.
She was a senior director in theproduct division, and she said,
sometimes you just have tomanage up. You can't undo or
change that your boss, you can'tmake them a different person,
(22:03):
but you can just learn whatthey're looking for. So I knew
any meeting I would show up withexactly what I knew she was
looking for before she asked me.And if there were situations
when, you know, she didn'tnecessarily want me to go talk
to someone, of course, I wouldalways learn to just you have to
(22:24):
copy copy them, but just beconfident in yourself. And it
is, you know, find mentors inthe organization, find your
ambassadors, and find that,like, hype squad that if you
are, like, feeling down aboutthe way you've been treated,
just find some people that cansay that's them and it's not
you.
And and keep learning andgrowing from it. And it makes us
(22:45):
all realize the kind of leaderwe wanna be when we see that in
other people.
Rhona Pierce (22:50):
And that's the beauty of working in TA, I
think, because we get to worknaturally. It's part of our job
with so many people outside ofour immediate boss and team. We
can get those advocates and thethose people speaking your name
and telling you, like, look.It's it's you. It's not you.
It's them. And, like, they don'tonly tell you that, but they say
(23:12):
that to other people. And Ithink that's an advantage that
we have that people in otherroles don't have. Your job
involves exposure to otherpeople, So you can build your
brand sneakily, I guess, thatway.
Brooke Wheeler (23:29):
Right. Right. And it's it is. It's all about
making sure that you have peoplethat that were right beside you,
always cheering for you. And wedo the same to everyone else.
That's our job too.
Rhona Pierce (23:41):
Yeah. Yes. It is. It definitely is because I know
I've been in situations wheresomeone's like someone's boss is
like, oh, so and so this. I'mlike, really?
I've had an amazing experiencewith them. They're one of my
favorite hiring managers becauseof this, this, and this, and
it's like, oh. Mhmm. Okay. Yeah.
Like, it helps see people in adifferent light.
Brooke Wheeler (24:01):
Right.
Rhona Pierce (24:02):
So and I I think it's just something that
naturally recruiters do. We'realways trying to to share the
best about someone else. Right?Because that's what we do with
our candidates. So I know I'm,like, territorial if someone
talks bad about one of my hiringmanagers that I like, really
like, no way.
Brooke Wheeler (24:23):
Well, and I'm obsessed with like, assessments
and behavioral assessments. Soanything that I take, it usually
comes out with you are anencourager. You're the
cheerleader, like and so that'sjust kind of a part of my nature
too. And I know it's about youas well.
Rhona Pierce (24:39):
Yeah. I it's funny. I took CliftonStrengths.
I'm forgetting it right now, butI've taken it a few times
because I'm like, I wanna getsomething different. I don't
know why.
I always get, like, relationshipor relational as the first one.
Brooke Wheeler (24:54):
Don't try for anything else. That's you.
Rhona Pierce (24:57):
So as we wrap up, what are you up to these days?
Like, how can listeners connectwith you?
Brooke Wheeler (25:02):
Yeah. I would love that. I so I have a couple
of things going on right now. Iam on the job market, so I'm
looking for leadership roleswithin the talent acquisition.
But in lieu of that, I decidedI'd just hang up a shingle and I
am I have created my ownbusiness called Restoration
Talent Solutions.
It's a fractional recruitingcompany, and I think in my last
(25:24):
role at merchant e was one of myfavorite jobs because I was able
to really create processes outof nothing, and I love doing
that. I really want to be ableto add value to companies who
need recruiters when they'venever had recruiters, and what
does talent acquisition evenmean? So follow me on LinkedIn,
Brooke Wheeler, restorationtalent solutions for fractional
(25:47):
TA. And if anyone just wants totalk and then you wanna walk
through this, I am alwaysavailable and happy to discuss
more.
Rhona Pierce (25:55):
And I know you totally mean that because Brooke
is such an approachable person.So really, I'm gonna put the
links in the show notes. If youwant to talk to Brooke, if you
wanna hire Brooke, if you wantany ask questions, if you have
any questions about thisepisode, please reach out. I
know she'll
Brooke Wheeler (26:16):
talk to you. Yeah. Thank you so much.
Rhona Pierce (26:20):
Of course. Thank you for being on the show today.
Brooke Wheeler (26:24):
My pleasure.
Rhona Pierce (26:25):
Thanks to Brooke for being on the show. To learn
more about branding yourself asa recruiter, check out episode
12, where I spoke to Anna Morganabout the power of a recruiter's
personal brand and how to brandyourself outside of your
company. Make sure to grab anotebook. Now as the TA job
(26:45):
market starts to pick up, we'reall looking to get back in the
game stronger than ever. Overthe next few weeks, I'll be
sharing episodes packed withstrategies to help you reinvent
your approach to talentacquisition.
Don't miss out. Subscribe tothrow out the playbook wherever
you get your podcasts. And iftoday's conversation inspired
(27:07):
you, please leave a 5 starreview. Your reviews help other
TA folks find us. Thanks forlistening and I'll chat with you
next week.
I know I can't just walk in and say, you have
to trust me, please. I'm I'mgood at my job.
Rhona Pierce (00:06):
In talent acquisition, trust isn't given,
it's earned. But how do youbuild that trust and become more
than just another recruiter?Brooke Wheeler is a talent
acquisition leader with over 25years of experience. Known for
transforming recruitmentstrategies and building high
performing teams, she joined meto share insights on elevating
(00:27):
your TA career and making alasting impact through internal
branding.
Brooke Wheeler (00:34):
If hiring managers don't understand what
you're about, why would theytrust you with their jobs?
Rhona Pierce (00:41):
What's one mistake that you see TA professionals
make when they're trying
Brooke Wheeler (00:45):
to build their brand internally? We're the face
of the company. Our job is tosell the company. If you start
feeling like you're not aligningwith your company's values,
you're in the wrong job.
Rhona Pierce (01:01):
What advice would you give to TA professionals who
want to be seen as more thanjust recruiters, but as like
strategic business partners?
Brooke Wheeler (01:13):
Come to the table with solutions. But if you
are just waiting on other peopleto tell you the answers, you're
never gonna make
Rhona Pierce (01:21):
it very far. But what if your leader feels
threatened by your efforts tobuild your internal brand?
Brooke Wheeler (01:28):
You certainly need to respect your leader in
some way, but
Rhona Pierce (01:35):
Why do you work in talent acquisition? Like, why do
you do what you do?
Brooke Wheeler (01:39):
Oh my gosh. That's a great question.
Probably like everyone, I fellinto talent acquisition just
straight out of college. Butwhat I love is being able to
talk to so many people and learnso many different stories.
Unfortunately, I've beenunemployed this year, and that's
what I miss the most.
And that's what I find myselfgravitating toward. It's just
(02:00):
being able to hear people'sstories and learn why they love
the work that they do. Maybeit's just like the natural
voyeur in all of us. We reallylike to learn, you know, what
other people do and and how theythrive in their jobs.
Rhona Pierce (02:13):
Yeah. I I find that now that I'm not working in
corporate and that I'm notactively recruiting, it's really
one of the things that I miss.It's like hearing people's
stories day in, day out. 6, 7, 8people you talk to in one day,
all different. That is soamazing.
I think when people hear theword personal branding, they
think external. They thinkLinkedIn. They think any social
(02:37):
media. But today, we're gonnatalk about the different the
other side of personal branding,which is internally. So what
does building your brandinternally entail?
How do you go about doing that?
Brooke Wheeler (02:52):
Right. So many different ways, but the number
one thing that we as recruiters,as talent acquisition
specialists need to be ourtrusted advisors. And if people
don't know you, if hiringmanagers don't understand what
you're about and what your heartis in it for, why would they
trust you with their jobs? Andthat's really what we're after
(03:15):
is becoming that trustedadvisor. And, you know,
throughout my career, I thinkthat I've done that well in the
sense of gaining their trust,but also doing what I say I'm
gonna do and caring about theirbusiness.
And we as TA and in recruiting,we're stewards of the brand of
(03:35):
the company, and it's our job tobe that face for the company.
And so part of that is just,like I said, doing what you say
you're gonna do, being curious,wanting to ask questions. Tell
me about your business. What'seven the product that's on the
other end? And I think that'swhere you start building your
brand and being that steward tothe company.
Rhona Pierce (03:57):
I agree. And I think I know a lot of people, me
included, have had periods intheir life when they felt in
their professional life, whenthey felt undervalued or
overlooked. Have you had anytimes? Can you share any
personal stories where you feltundervalued or overlooked within
(04:18):
your organization and how youwent about overcoming that?
Brooke Wheeler (04:22):
Yeah. And I'm I'm sure I could tell plenty
from the beginning of my career,but most recently, I joined a
company that unfortunately, theyhad laid off their entire HR
department, their entirerecruiting department. And so I
came in with a new HR departmentand, you know, the leaders were
it was kind of a wild west. Theleaders were giving all of their
(04:42):
jobs out to agencies. And sowhen we walked in the door, most
everyone was very grateful.
They were like, oh my gosh,please. Like, what can I give
you? But there was the CTO whohad kind of come he may be
created the Wild West show. Hebrought in a lot of his own
agencies that he had worked withbefore. And, you know, I kinda
(05:02):
had one other thing, I guess,not going for me.
I am an everything but ITrecruiter. And so he was like,
who are you? You don't know mybusiness, and I didn't. You
know, so that was kind of a Ireally had to dig in to say,
okay. I know.
I can't just walk in and say,you have to trust me, please.
I'm I'm good at my job. So Ireally had to start a process
(05:24):
where I gained his trust. Andthe very first thing that I did
was I didn't do it to be sneaky,but I went to his direct
reports, and I started buildingtheir trust because they're the
ones, like, in the trenches, inthe weeds that need these hires.
So I started, you know,everything that I do, a biweekly
meeting with them.
(05:45):
In fact, we probably did it atleast every week, if not every 3
or 4 days at first. You know,biweekly meeting with them to
learn what would exactly what Isaid about, you know, how you
build your brand. Tell me aboutwhat what I said about, you
know, how you build your brand.Tell me about what you do. Tell
me about the people that youneed so that they knew that I
was caring about their group andtheir department.
I learned about their culture.Like, what does it take to be be
(06:06):
in your department and who arethe people that work well and
thrive here? So it really isjust about, you know, baby steps
to gain that trust and just bevery direct. Like, I don't know
exactly what's happening or whatyou need, but I really wanna
learn, and I really wanna knowmore about your business. And so
slowly but surely over time, hesaw that I'm I'm here for you.
(06:28):
I want to do a good job for you.And, you know, once he saw a
couple of wins, he was able toto be he really was our greatest
advocate.
Rhona Pierce (06:36):
That's an amazing story, and I think every
recruiter listening can thinkback to a time where someone was
like because there's alwayssomeone internally who's like,
no. Not you. For whateverreason, they're anti recruiter
or for whatever reason. Sothat's a great story. At the end
of the day, what we wanna do isbuild trust and become partners,
(06:59):
And the only way of doing thatis really like you did, like, I
call it infiltrate, talk topeople.
Brooke Wheeler (07:07):
Right. Right. Well, and, you know, it's I
don't know about you as a humanme. I'm not great at tooting my
own horn. And so my work standsfor itself.
But sometimes you do have to youhave to learn how and that's
part of building your brand. Andmaybe you have a boss or someone
who's really good at tootingyour horn for you. You know,
(07:28):
I've always had those people whoare, you know, my greatest
advocates. And I think you haveto find those folks within your
organization that can help andsay, you know, kind of prop you
up when you're not able to do ityourself.
Rhona Pierce (07:40):
Exactly. So what's one thing that you wish someone
had told you about building yourcareer and your brand earlier in
your journey?
Brooke Wheeler (07:53):
Yeah. I think that we all think that we have
to know everything to be theexpert and you don't. So I
really wish someone had saidjust trust your gut because when
we walk into a room with hiringmanagers, with candidates, we
are the expert. We could know 5%more than them, but we typically
know more. And I think it's justto trust yourself and trust your
(08:15):
gut that you are the subjectmatter expert, that you have
value.
You have something to add. Therewere so many times when, you
know, imposter syndrome withthat that dirty word we all
hate, it's it's gonna jump inand it's gonna hurt jump out
rather. And, it's just how tohow to flick it away and say,
like, I can help here.
Rhona Pierce (08:35):
Yeah. And that's something that many guests on
those podcasts and I have spokenabout many times through all the
episodes. It's like, yes, youmight not be a technical person
because you might not know howto do half of the jobs that
you're recruiting for, butyou're the expert at hiring.
Mhmm. That's yours thing.
(08:56):
You have to stand in that power.100%. So how do you approach
internal branding, like, on adaily basis? What does that look
like?
Brooke Wheeler (09:07):
You know, some I've been very fortunate where I
have some corporations who havean incredible career development
path. And you know, there wereso many times early in my career
when, like we said, I didn'ttrust myself. It didn't feel
like I was the leader. But nomatter what role you're in,
where you sit in theorganization, you have the
(09:29):
ability to lead. And if youdon't feel confident in your
leadership, find some classes.
And I I know LinkedIn Learninghas some, and I was able to
take, you know, clearcommunication or some, you know,
conflict is always difficult forme. So really how to to lean
into conflict in a healthy wayand, you know, I was very
(09:50):
fortunate to have those classesavailable to me, but there's so
many different opportunities.But it is. It's we you know,
just every day, just a littlepebble in your bucket to to keep
building your voice in a way.
Rhona Pierce (10:04):
Looking back, because I know that you've
managed many TA teams. You are aTA leader. What's one mistake
that you see TA professionalsmake when they're trying to
build their brand internally?
Brooke Wheeler (10:17):
I hope I don't offend anyone like this. But,
you know, we, NTA, we're theface of the company. We are the
the first line. We are sometimesthe first conversation someone
has with the organization, andour job is to sell the company.
And if you if you start feelinglike you're not aligning with
your company's values, you're inthe wrong job.
(10:40):
That's I've seen so manyrecruiters who, you know, maybe
on the back end and maybe notout loud to a candidate, but I
just there's just a lot ofnegativity like, I'm not saying
you have to always loveeverything your company does,
but you kinda have to drink theKool Aid in a in a bit of a way,
and you really do need to alwayshave positivity and, you know,
(11:02):
speak highly of your company andnot be the person who is talking
behind people's backs or saying,oh, this guy, blah, blah, blah.
We have to be that positive faceto the company. And I think
that's I hope I've done a greatjob of doing that with my
organizations. You know, oninternal branding, I speak more
about my company than I do aboutmyself. And that's the, you
know, maybe a mistake that I'vemade.
(11:24):
And so it's certainly somethingto always remember. You know, I
know you spoke with Anna Morganabout your external brand, and
that's you never wanna forgetthat either. You also want when
you're on LinkedIn, find yourown voice and find what makes
you the most valuable personoutside of just your company.
Rhona Pierce (11:41):
Yeah. And it's true what you said. I mean and
I've said this on otherepisodes. I think it I I don't
remember with who it was, butthere's always some BS at the
company. Right?
Right. Of course. Like, nocompany is perfect. But at the
end of the day, you work therebecause the good outweighs the
BS, hopefully. Right?
(12:02):
Yes. You're not painting a rosypicture for candidates and
everything because sometimespeople the first time they ever
hear about the company is fromyou. Like you said, yes. You're
the face of the company. But ifyou just say the truth and
approach things, but you have tobe in that positive mindset
about your company.
Because the BS, yes, explain itto people. I never an advocate
(12:26):
for hiding it.
Brooke Wheeler (12:27):
Correct. But
Rhona Pierce (12:28):
there's positive things about the BS. Right?
There's positive ways to toexplain it to people. But I know
for me, the second I'm notaligned with the company or,
like, the BS starts outweighingthe good, I know it's time to
(12:48):
leave. And those few weeks ormonths and now, unfortunately,
years of someone's in thissituation that it can take you
to find another place, youreally have to work on your
mindset and not presenting yourcompany in a bad light because
(13:09):
that kills your brandinternally.
Because the hiring manager orsomeone else will know from
something a candidate says thatyou are not being the best
representation of the company,and that starts killing your
brand internally and killing thetrust that they have with you.
Right.
Brooke Wheeler (13:29):
And I get yeah. It all goes back to trust.
Rhona Pierce (13:31):
Yeah. So talking about trust, how do you build
that trust and rapport withinternal stakeholders,
especially those that don't havea deep understanding of TA, but
we know everyone thinks theyknow how to hire. Right?
Brooke Wheeler (13:46):
Right. Why do I need you? I think a lot of it is
curiosity. And that's, again,why we're so good at our jobs
and why we're great interviewersbecause we're curious about
people's lives. And I think wejust extend that same quality to
our hiring managers.
Tell me about your business. CanI come to your lunch and learns?
(14:08):
Can I attend your salesmeetings? Make sure that you
have constant communication withthem what's happening,
especially when you're doingthat intake call, really get
curious on their business. Andthen be honest.
I have, you know, sat in anintake meeting and like, I have
never recruited for this in mylife, but I'm gonna figure it
(14:29):
out and you're gonna help me andshow up at their team meetings
with a couple of profiles andshow the entire team like this
is what I think. How does thisalign with what you're looking
for and get their feedback? Andit is it's just a matter of
making sure they know you'rethere for them. Quick story. I
had a hiring manager that it wasa large, maybe 200 customer
(14:51):
service organization, and I wasmoved on to be the recruiter for
them.
And I noticed a lot of not maybepushback defensiveness, just non
responsiveness from the hiringmanager. And, you know, I could
have said, well, she must notneed me, but I decided to just
ask a very direct question. Idon't feel like I'm getting a
(15:12):
lot from you. Is there somethingI can do better that would make
you wanna work with me? And shesaid, I've had 3 recruiters
before you and they all, youknow, didn't send good
candidates.
They barely called me. Theyasked to be moved off of this
department. And her beingvulnerable to me allowed me to
(15:34):
then say, okay. Well, these arethe steps that I think we should
take. I'm not offeringperfection, but I'm offering you
my service and and let's make aplan that works for you.
And, you know, we put somethings in place with
communication, with meetings,with me interviewing her best
talent so that I could learn,you know, the profile. And we
(15:55):
were able to really kind of turnaround that department because
we got better hires, bettertenure, better happiness in
their job. I'm not sure. I'mlike, we're not this horse when
I need it.
Rhona Pierce (16:06):
Yeah. No. That's such a powerful illustration of
really what it means to be apartner and to build trust.
Because at behind everything,like, yeah, we can talk about
hiring managers and how theythink they know everything, and
they can talk about how theyhate us and how we're not
needed. But when you like,behind a hiring manager is a
(16:30):
human.
Behind a recruiter is a human.And historically, it doesn't
matter what you're doing. How dohumans connect? And it's through
talking.
Brooke Wheeler (16:42):
Right. Novel concepts sometimes. Right?
Rhona Pierce (16:45):
I know there's a saying in Spanish. So I'm from
Panama. Spanish is my firstlanguage. And there's a saying
in Panama that it's like, peopleunderstand each other when they
talk. And it just means likewhen things are out of whack,
when everyone's mad, everything,like, the simplest way to get a
relationship back on track is todo what you did.
(17:07):
Just reach out to the person,ask the question that you're
wanting to know. Don't make upstories in your head. Just talk.
That could solve so manyproblems.
Brooke Wheeler (17:18):
100%. I love that. I love that.
Rhona Pierce (17:21):
So what advice would you give to TA
professionals who want to beseen as more than just
recruiters, but as, like,strategic business partners?
Brooke Wheeler (17:33):
It's come to the table with solutions. And that
sounds, again, very simple. Butif you are just waiting on, you
know, other people to tell youthe answers, you're never gonna
make it very far. Truly comewith ideas on what are some
different ways to recruitbecause we kind of all get into
(17:53):
our bad habits of just Oh, letme go to LinkedIn or let me do
this, but not that everyone hasto be a super sourcer. But what
are some organizations thatyou're a part of that we should
call?
Are there any, you know, simplenewsletters that you get? That's
probably not even accurateanymore, but people that you
follow online. But, you know, Ithink that it's just a matter of
(18:14):
showing up every day, ready tohelp ready to serve and, you
know, be that matchmaker thatyou are.
Rhona Pierce (18:21):
I love that advice. As a TA leader, how do
you empower your team to buildinternal relationships?
Brooke Wheeler (18:29):
I just like to get out of the way in the sense
of I will always be my team'sgreatest advocate. I will
introduce you. I will make sureyou know, you know, who you need
to work with. I will setexpectations with, I expect, you
know, the communication to beproactive and not reactive. I
expect that you have meetingswith all of your hiring
(18:52):
managers.
You'd, you know, have simple doan intake. But I wanna make sure
that you build a relationshipand that it's not through me.
I've had, gosh, unfortunately, acouple of of leaders of my
bosses who I would get introuble if I reached out to the
CEO without them on the email orin the meeting, and that doesn't
(19:14):
empower me to do my job. So Ihope that I've learned from some
of my great leaders who look atme and say, you're the expert,
you're the one who knows what'shappening on the ground. So
you're the one that should be incharge of having these
communications.
And then as a leader, of course,always being available to, you
know, help with any issues thatcome up or if there's any kind
(19:36):
of miscommunication. But I'malways the one that's gonna say,
well, you know, so and so is theexpert. Let's call them in on
this conversation, becausethat's how people learn, and how
they can become the next us, andthe leadership is if we're
letting them do their jobs.
Rhona Pierce (19:51):
So I was looking through your LinkedIn profile as
I prepared for this, and I sawsome of the amazing
recommendations that you have onLinkedIn. And now I know why.
Just getting out of the way ineverything that you've said and,
like, being that champion forthe people, like, speaking the
(20:15):
name of your teams in rooms thatthey're nodding and bringing
them into it and, like, lettingthem know it's okay to speak to
someone higher up than me or tomy boss. That one shows
confidence in who you are and,like, in your professional
abilities, but also it show it'sa sign of a great leader. So I
(20:38):
can see why you have such greatrecommendations.
Brooke Wheeler (20:41):
And and I've had good mentors in that as well. So
I'm I'm I'm always glad to be onthis side and being able to copy
and mimic that.
Rhona Pierce (20:49):
And now you've you've brought up a good point
of something that I just thoughtabout for someone who's working
with a leader who isn't thatopen to them talking to others,
especially higher up, but theperson wants to build their
internal brand, I could seewhere a boss could see that as,
(21:12):
like, competition. Intimidating.Yeah. Would you have some advice
for someone who finds themselvesin that situation?
Brooke Wheeler (21:21):
Yeah. The advice that I wish I'd given myself at
this time in my career maybe iswhat we're looking for there.
And you certainly need torespect your leader in some way.
But I think, you know, havingadvocates of their peers, I
found was very important so thatthey could bring me into certain
(21:43):
conversations if they need if ifwas something that I needed to
be a part of, and maybe myleader wasn't bringing me into
that conversation. So I I wentto the mentor that I had in the
company.
She was a senior director in theproduct division, and she said,
sometimes you just have tomanage up. You can't undo or
change that your boss, you can'tmake them a different person,
(22:03):
but you can just learn whatthey're looking for. So I knew
any meeting I would show up withexactly what I knew she was
looking for before she asked me.And if there were situations
when, you know, she didn'tnecessarily want me to go talk
to someone, of course, I wouldalways learn to just you have to
(22:24):
copy copy them, but just beconfident in yourself. And it
is, you know, find mentors inthe organization, find your
ambassadors, and find that,like, hype squad that if you
are, like, feeling down aboutthe way you've been treated,
just find some people that cansay that's them and it's not
you.
And and keep learning andgrowing from it. And it makes us
(22:45):
all realize the kind of leaderwe wanna be when we see that in
other people.
Rhona Pierce (22:50):
And that's the beauty of working in TA, I
think, because we get to worknaturally. It's part of our job
with so many people outside ofour immediate boss and team. We
can get those advocates and thethose people speaking your name
and telling you, like, look.It's it's you. It's not you.
It's them. And, like, they don'tonly tell you that, but they say
(23:12):
that to other people. And Ithink that's an advantage that
we have that people in otherroles don't have. Your job
involves exposure to otherpeople, So you can build your
brand sneakily, I guess, thatway.
Brooke Wheeler (23:29):
Right. Right. And it's it is. It's all about
making sure that you have peoplethat that were right beside you,
always cheering for you. And wedo the same to everyone else.
That's our job too.
Rhona Pierce (23:41):
Yeah. Yes. It is. It definitely is because I know
I've been in situations wheresomeone's like someone's boss is
like, oh, so and so this. I'mlike, really?
I've had an amazing experiencewith them. They're one of my
favorite hiring managers becauseof this, this, and this, and
it's like, oh. Mhmm. Okay. Yeah.
Like, it helps see people in adifferent light.
Brooke Wheeler (24:01):
Right.
Rhona Pierce (24:02):
So and I I think it's just something that
naturally recruiters do. We'realways trying to to share the
best about someone else. Right?Because that's what we do with
our candidates. So I know I'm,like, territorial if someone
talks bad about one of my hiringmanagers that I like, really
like, no way.
Brooke Wheeler (24:23):
Well, and I'm obsessed with like, assessments
and behavioral assessments. Soanything that I take, it usually
comes out with you are anencourager. You're the
cheerleader, like and so that'sjust kind of a part of my nature
too. And I know it's about youas well.
Rhona Pierce (24:39):
Yeah. I it's funny. I took CliftonStrengths.
I'm forgetting it right now, butI've taken it a few times
because I'm like, I wanna getsomething different. I don't
know why.
I always get, like, relationshipor relational as the first one.
Brooke Wheeler (24:54):
Don't try for anything else. That's you.
Rhona Pierce (24:57):
So as we wrap up, what are you up to these days?
Like, how can listeners connectwith you?
Brooke Wheeler (25:02):
Yeah. I would love that. I so I have a couple
of things going on right now. Iam on the job market, so I'm
looking for leadership roleswithin the talent acquisition.
But in lieu of that, I decidedI'd just hang up a shingle and I
am I have created my ownbusiness called Restoration
Talent Solutions.
It's a fractional recruitingcompany, and I think in my last
(25:24):
role at merchant e was one of myfavorite jobs because I was able
to really create processes outof nothing, and I love doing
that. I really want to be ableto add value to companies who
need recruiters when they'venever had recruiters, and what
does talent acquisition evenmean? So follow me on LinkedIn,
Brooke Wheeler, restorationtalent solutions for fractional
(25:47):
TA. And if anyone just wants totalk and then you wanna walk
through this, I am alwaysavailable and happy to discuss
more.
Rhona Pierce (25:55):
And I know you totally mean that because Brooke
is such an approachable person.So really, I'm gonna put the
links in the show notes. If youwant to talk to Brooke, if you
wanna hire Brooke, if you wantany ask questions, if you have
any questions about thisepisode, please reach out. I
know she'll
Brooke Wheeler (26:16):
talk to you. Yeah. Thank you so much.
Rhona Pierce (26:20):
Of course. Thank you for being on the show today.
Brooke Wheeler (26:24):
My pleasure.
Rhona Pierce (26:25):
Thanks to Brooke for being on the show. To learn
more about branding yourself asa recruiter, check out episode
12, where I spoke to Anna Morganabout the power of a recruiter's
personal brand and how to brandyourself outside of your
company. Make sure to grab anotebook. Now as the TA job
(26:45):
market starts to pick up, we'reall looking to get back in the
game stronger than ever. Overthe next few weeks, I'll be
sharing episodes packed withstrategies to help you reinvent
your approach to talentacquisition.
Don't miss out. Subscribe tothrow out the playbook wherever
you get your podcasts. And iftoday's conversation inspired
(27:07):
you, please leave a 5 starreview. Your reviews help other
TA folks find us. Thanks forlistening and I'll chat with you
next week.
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