November 4, 2024 • 46 mins
Around 20% of the population in the US is neurodivergent, yet most hiring processes contain significant barriers for neurodiverse candidates. If you’re not intentional about prioritizing neuro-inclusivity, AI-driven recruiting is going to make this worse!
So how can companies make sure they’re not unintentionally excluding neurodiverse talent?
My guest this week is Tameka Allen, a People & Culture consultant and the founder of ModCulture, a consultancy fostering business success through neuroinclusive work cultures.
In this interview, she emphasizes the importance of creating accessible hiring practices that accommodate diverse cognitive styles, the misconceptions surrounding neurodivergent candidates, and the need for organizations to adopt a growth mindset. Tameka shares practical steps for improving interview processes, the value of data in driving change, and the positive ripple effects of embracing neurodiversity in the workplace.
RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
📕 Embracing Neurodiversity in Hiring Quick start Guide: https://bit.ly/neurodivergenthiring
📬 Get the Newsletter: https://link.rhonapierce.com/YZEviw
//TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 INTRODUCTION
03:05 Personal Journey to Neuro-Inclusive Practices
05:53 Challenges Faced by Neurodivergent Candidates
08:49 The Importance of Inclusive Interview Processes
12:08 Common Misconceptions About Neurodivergent Candidates
14:58 Practical Accommodations for Neurodivergent Candidates
17:49 Data-Driven Approaches to Improve Hiring
21:06 The Ripple Effects of Neuro-Inclusive Hiring
23:56 Overcoming Resistance to Change in Hiring Practices
27:09 Small Changes for Immediate Impact
RECOMMENDED NEXT EPISODE
→ #9: The Truth about Diversity Hiring - with Tara Turk-Haynes
****
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tameka Allen (00:02):
We would never ask someone who we could visibly see
is paralyzed to walk up a flightof stairs. We just wouldn't.
Rhona Pierce (00:12):
Tameka Allen is transforming how companies think
about inclusive hiring. But whenher journey began with her
daughter's diagnosis, sheuncovered a shocking reality
about our workplace.
Tameka Allen (00:25):
Just in the US, our population of those of us
who identify as neurodivergentis about 20%. But when you look
at subsets of our community,that group tends to have around
85 to 90% unemployment rate.
Rhona Pierce (00:40):
That's a big chunk that we're overlooking, really.
Tamika realized that hiringpractices often unintentionally
exclude qualified candidates bysetting neurotypical standards
for interviews. So what ismasking?
Tameka Allen (01:00):
When we're in spaces that allow us to work in
the ways in which our brainworks, we're like 30 to 40% more
productive than our neurotypicalcounterparts.
Rhona Pierce (01:10):
I have so many questions. Why are you even
asking that in an interview?
Tameka Allen (01:13):
Which is why it's important to audit those
interview processes and reallyask those questions. What does
this have to do with qualifyingthe candidate?
Rhona Pierce (01:21):
Tameka shares her vision for a hiring process
that's accessible to everyone,not just those who fit a
standard mold.
Tameka Allen (01:29):
For the most part, people, when they know better,
they do better. Embracing thatmindset, this is what creates
innovation in companies thatmake serious money.
Rhona Pierce (01:41):
I am so excited to have you on the show today,
Tamika.
Tameka Allen (01:45):
Oh, thanks so much for having me, Rhonda. I'm
excited to be here.
Rhona Pierce (01:48):
So can you tell us a bit about, like, your
background and background andhow you became interested in
neuroinclusive practices?
Tameka Allen (01:55):
Yeah. Absolutely. So, this started quite a bit
ago, my first discovery andmoment around it, and it
actually started with mydaughter. So one of my daughters
was diagnosed, neurodivergent.She was in elementary school at
the time.
I remember her teacher came tome and basically started to
share, you know, I feel likethere might be some some
(02:17):
learning challenges or uniquelearning abilities there. And so
I noticed some things as well,so she recommended we have her
assessed. So we did that with aprivate psychologist. School
psychologist got involved andwere able to put some pieces
together to her puzzle. And as Iwas looking over her
(02:38):
evaluations, Rona, I just keptlaughing because I kept
recognizing some things inmyself.
And I'm like, oh, I do that too.I'm like, oh, that looks
familiar. I do that as well. Andas I started to relearn how to
support her as well as myself, Ialso started to see some things
(02:58):
mirrored in candidate employeeexperiences at work. So I've
been working with people andtalent for quite some time in
various facets.
Look, the first notice for mecame up during candidate
interviews. And it wasn't about,like, diagnosing people, but I
just kept noticing them. My god.That feels very familiar.
Whether someone disclosed ornot, I started to first notice
(03:22):
this as those candidate employeeexperiences seem to be swinging
the direction of someone who isneurotypical.
Right. Well, I can certainlyexplain what that means so
people can understand. Sosomeone neurotypical would be
someone whose thoughts, ideas,perceptions really align with
(03:43):
what we consider societal norms.So things we hear about in job
postings or interview processes.So thinking faster in your feed,
being able to pivot whenrequired, multitasking, those
types of things.
So I would say after herdiagnosis as well as later mine,
(04:03):
that's when I it gave me kind oflike this unique lens to where
now I'm taking a second look atthings, wondering, this looks
familiar, and how can we makethis experience better on
whether someone disclosed ornot?
Rhona Pierce (04:17):
That's amazing. It's always good when, like, you
have the realization somethingin your personal life, and then
you bring it to work. Because,like, we're working with people
in TA so in so many differentpeople and so quickly that those
moments, and I think everyonehas had them, make you be a
(04:39):
better recruiter, a better TAperson. And also HR and employee
experience, it just helps youconnect and understand people
better even if people don't selfdisclose. And, yeah, like you
said, you're not diagnosingpeople.
You're just picking up on thingsand you see things a different
way.
Tameka Allen (04:59):
Yeah.
Rhona Pierce (05:00):
Has any of that shaped your work that you do
with neuroinclusiveenvironments?
Tameka Allen (05:08):
Yep. Absolutely. After my diagnosis and having
kind of this moment, I startedto dig into the data because I'm
I'm curious. I'm always lookingfor information, research, love
reading. And I started to findsome interesting things that
maybe lean into this a littlebit more that led to, we've
(05:28):
definitely got to do somethingabout this.
So some of those behaviors, likeI told you about, that were a
bit biased to those who thinkneurotypically. Communicating
conscious concisely and quickly,multitasking, quick actions on
the fly. And when I started todig into the data, I'm like,
well, what kind of populationare we looking at here? Am I
alone in this thing? So Istarted to post on LinkedIn
(05:51):
about my journey, but also as Iwas researching, found out just
in the US, our population ofthose of us who identify as
neurodivergent is about 20%.
I'm like, that's prettysignificant. I quickly found out
I wasn't alone and thatironically, the unemployment
rate for us is extremely high aswell, 30 or 40%, when you look
(06:16):
at just overall for theneurodivergent community. But
when you look at subsets of ourcommunity, like, for instance,
autism, those with autism, thatgroup tends to have around 85 to
90% unemployment rate. It'sextremely high. And I just
thought it was more than acoincidence that oftentimes
(06:36):
these behaviors that causepeople to be rejected out of
interview processes happen toalign with behaviors that are
associated with neurodivergentconditions.
And that's when I said I said,something's gotta give. We've
gotta change these processes sothat they're more equitable, so
at least people can show up attheir best, so we can properly
(06:58):
assess them objectively in theinterview process. A couple
other things came up, like, is Istarted to look at the size of
this community in comparison toother marginalized communities.
Right? So from women, right,which is probably the biggest
group that we have when it comesto marginalized communities here
(07:20):
in the US, even more so thanthose with physical
disabilities, ethnicity, race,sex, gender identity, like just
that group alone of us who areneurodivergent, it's pretty
significant size.
And so but most organizationswho are implementing now this is
(07:42):
just the organizations who areimplementing DEI in their
strategies within thoseorganizations. Only about 4% of
those organizations includedisabilities. That's visible and
non visible disabilities. That'snot even just the neurodivergent
community. So when you put allof that together in a picture,
it leaves this enormousopportunity that I believe we're
(08:04):
missing and overlooking thistalent.
Rhona Pierce (08:07):
Yeah. That's that's a big chunk that we're
overlooking, really. Evencompanies doing or actively
working on diversity andinclusion. That's that's
important work that you'redoing.
Tameka Allen (08:24):
It's very telling. Right? If we just take a look at
it and like I said, for me, ithappened to me taking a closer
look, happened to come through apersonal experience, not
realizing what I was gonnadiscover when I started digging
into things professionally. Soso from that, I started to learn
as we were implementing andchanging interview processes,
(08:45):
how much it benefited those whowere not neurodivergent as well.
And thinking there's a there's awin win here for everyone if we
just stop and pay attention.
Rhona Pierce (08:54):
What are some of the biggest challenges
neurodivergent candidates facelike in traditional job
interviews?
Tameka Allen (09:01):
So not knowing what they'll be asked. Maybe
when you're building out apipeline and deciding who will
be in the interview process, youdecide on a set of folks, but
then you change it in the middleof the process. So a candidate
might be walking to an interviewwanting thinking they're gonna
be meeting with 1 person, andmaybe now it's someone
completely different. Or maybeit's now more than one person
(09:25):
that is going to be joining thatconversation and the candidate
doesn't know. Right?
Oftentimes, becauseneurodivergent talent is trying
to find those places where theycan show up in the ways in which
their brain works, Maybe thereare some short stints in on
their resume that people wouldconsider to be job hoppers.
Right? Or maybe it was due tosomething related to their
(09:48):
condition is the reason why theyhave those short stints.
Communication. So processingaudible information.
Right? Especially if you'rewalking into a situation for a
virtual interview and thecaptions are on in that call,
which I find that pretty common,unfortunately, to where, you
know, you have this technology,you invest in it for your teams,
(10:11):
but this is a simple switch thatcould be turned on. Here's a big
one. Picking up on social cues.Right?
And I'll use myself as anexample. I remember in one of my
past roles, it wasn't uncommonfor junior recruiters to come to
me because they wanted to shadowmy interviews. And I remember
one particular instance, Rongal,where a junior recruiter was
(10:33):
shadowing an interview. Andafterwards, we were debriefing
about the candidate. And sheasked she said, did you mind if
I share something with you?
And I said, no. Absolutely. Goahead. And she said, I felt like
that candidate was reallycondescending to you. I said,
really?
And when she reminded me of whathe was saying in the moment, I
(10:54):
didn't catch that because thatthat's something that comes
along with where I am. But shebrought it to my attention, and
it's evidence of, oftentimes, wehave to process after the fact
to really understand. And sothat's why, for me, I will
almost never tell a candidate inan interview whether or not they
were going to move forward ornot. But in this instance, can
(11:16):
you imagine what that might looklike with the candidate who's
not picking up on cues from arecruiter, right, or a hiring
manager in an interview process?So these are some of the things
in addition to masking.
Right?
Rhona Pierce (11:29):
So what is masking?
Tameka Allen (11:31):
Yeah. So masking is basically us showing up in a
way that does not reveal ourcondition. And that can happen
whether we know it or not. Irealized even after my diagnosis
that I had been masking, like,my entire life, showing up in a
way to where I'll be accepted,where I'll fit in, and it can
(11:55):
really cause a lot of distressfor someone who's
neurodivergent, which is anotherreason why these processes
should be more inclusive.
Rhona Pierce (12:04):
Yeah. I mean, I I had heard of the term masking as
I was preparing for thisinterview, and it's just I have
neurodivergent people in myfamily. I won't disclose on
their behalf, but it gave melike such sadness to know that
we've created a society wherepeople feel that they have to
(12:27):
act in a certain way. It's like,who says because most people and
really after hearing some ofthese statistics, does not
really most people, but who saysbecause a lot of people act this
way, everyone else needs to actthis way. And how are we going
about and talking aboutdiversity, equity, and inclusion
(12:49):
for so many years when there isa huge part of the population
acting in a way that makes usinclude them.
That blows my mind. So sad.
Tameka Allen (13:01):
Yeah. Yeah. It's mind boggling to wonder, and
it's been the norm for so long.Right? But I'm grateful for as
sad as those statistics make me,I'm grateful that we know now
because we can we can start tomake change.
Rhona Pierce (13:14):
Yeah. Because once you know and everyone listening
or watching this episode, onceyou know, you now have the
responsibility to make change.And as TA people in
organizations, this is such easythings. Like you said, you
mentioned the captions, and Iheard you speak at at breakfast,
and it's like, oh my gosh. Yeah.
(13:37):
We have it there, and people canrequest. But why are we waiting
for people to request? Like, theamount of people that are gonna
say, please turn off thecaptions is so like, no one's
gonna say that. So just havethem turned on. That way, people
who need it don't have to askyou for it.
Simple things like that.
Tameka Allen (13:56):
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Because, I mean,
from an ADA perspective, we'vebeen doing this with physical
buildings for a long time,right? Having ramps, elevators,
things to where we would neverask someone who we could visibly
see is paralyzed to walk up aflight of stairs.
We just wouldn't. Most buildingshave it accessible to where no
(14:19):
one has to ask that's alreadyprepared because they already
anticipate someone with aphysical disability is going to
come. And this is the way I wishwe will approach more of
interviews with candidates.
Rhona Pierce (14:30):
That is such great perspective, and I hadn't
thought about it that way, butit's true. You like, the ramps
are there. The designatedparking spots are there. For
blind people, the on the signs.Yeah.
The braille. Mhmm. It's there.You they don't have to ask you
for these things. Greatperspective.
What are some commonmisconceptions about
(14:53):
neurodivergent candidates thatyou found throughout your work,
and how do you help hiringmanagers see things differently?
Tameka Allen (15:01):
Yeah. A couple examples come to mind. Like,
this is a big one. We've heard alot about this on LinkedIn.
Being off camera during avirtual interview.
And also, even if you're inperson, maybe the maybe the
candidate isn't giving youdirect eye contact. And so when
I think about when these thingshave come up with hiring
(15:21):
managers, here's how I go abouthelping them understand why this
is not equitable. Right? So justsay a hiring manager, I've had
this happen, rejected wanted toreject a qualified candidate
because they were off camera.And I asked them, I said, tell
me more about that.
Why you feel that way? And whyare you leaning towards this
decision? And they would tellme, you know, this isn't
(15:45):
professional. How do I know it'sreally them? These are some of
the objections that I would getreject objections that I would
get.
And so I would just kind ofclarify. So I'm hearing you say.
Right? And then as I go into myresponse, I want to make sure
that I'm protecting thecandidate. Because if they've
disclosed, right, we'll shareaccommodations and things that
(16:07):
need to take place in aninterview process for someone
who has disclosed.
But we're not going to disclose,right, a conditioning of a
candidate shared or anythinglike that. So I'll make sure to
protect the candidate whetherthey disclose or not to say the
candidate has not disclosed thisto me. This is from my
experience and my knowledge,helping those in accommodations
(16:29):
that some of the behaviors youjust described, like being off
camera, could be related to acondition that causes sensory
overload. And so this isn'tsomething we want to penalize a
candidate for. Right?
And that this behavior bealigned with a protected class.
(16:49):
And so if the manager hasn't hadany training on this, we go into
the discussion about what thatmeans. Right? So based on the
essential functions of the job,why do you wish to reject this
candidate? And so that's usuallythe question I leave them with,
and some have been able toanswer me.
Others haven't. In thisparticular instance, the manager
(17:09):
couldn't answer me. And so thatcandidate did move forward in
the interview process. They werelater rejected, but it was for
an objective reason. Right?
And so that was a learninglesson for that hiring manager
to understand. And from thatpoint on, they really whenever
we would have a debrief about acandidate, whether it had to do
with someone potentially showingthese behaviors or not, They
(17:31):
were a bit more open andunderstood the importance of
their reasoning behind theirtheir higher decisions.
Rhona Pierce (17:38):
Just asking that and really centering as TA
people, that's what we should bedoing in general for every
candidate. It's like, I mean,I'm sure you've heard it. I've
heard so many things for reasonsto reject someone. And it's
like, the biggest way I'velearned to control my face has
been by talking to hiringmanagers and asking them why
(18:00):
they wanna reject someone.Because I've heard I've heard
some wild things.
And when you spoke at breakfastabout turning off the cameras, I
know you got a question from theaudience, and I also see this
online if people are like, well,how am I gonna know it's really
the candidate? And I've had thatquestion asked as well, and I
(18:22):
think I shared it with you, 2stories of why this doesn't even
matter. In person interview. Sowe're talking this was probably
2014. In person interview, I didphone interviews and everything,
and the recruiter so I was thehiring manager.
Right? So the recruiter had hadspoken to the candidate. When
(18:45):
the candidate comes to theoffice, I am sitting and I am
talking to this person, and I ama 100% confident this is not the
person I spoke to on the phone.This is absolutely not that
person. After the interview, Idebriefed with a recruiter, and
it just I said something like,oh, it was interesting.
(19:06):
They had this accent. They'relike, they had done a in person
interview. It was a differentperson just when we talked about
it. So people were scammingbecause it does happen,
especially in tech. It happens alot.
They're going to do it even ifyou're virtual or not. That's
one example. Another example isI've hired someone, and this is
(19:30):
one of my mistakes in hiringthat I did, but I had no clue.
Interview was perfect. It wasvirtual.
Interview was perfect.Everything, candidate looked
great. Person was hired. Right?Person who shows up for work is
not the candidate that I hired.
(19:51):
And it was just like, we didn'tknow. It was a couple of weeks.
And then I just, hey. You know,I'm a recruiter who likes to
check-in with people to see howthey're doing, and this is a
remote job. And it's like, let'sjump on a quick Zoom.
And they try to avoid it, butI'm like, no. No. No. It doesn't
matter if you're not ready. Itdoesn't like, come on.
It's just me. Different human.Like, totally different human.
(20:15):
So all of that to say, justbecause someone doesn't turn on
their camera during an interviewdoesn't mean that they're
scamming or anything like that.Yes.
It's most likely something ofwhat you've mentioned. And
there's so many other conditionsas far as people live in places
where they're not comfortable.They they don't have the privacy
(20:39):
to have a interview without thebackground distracting or
they're not proud of theirbackground. So many things. So
when we talk about diversity,equity, and inclusion, things
like someone not turning ontheir camera during an interview
are not that is not adisqualifier.
It shouldn't be.
Tameka Allen (20:58):
That's right. That's right. Especially given
only about 4% of employees withdisabilities disclose. So this
person is taking it becausestatistically, I was and I
mentioned this at RecFest aswell, there's been some research
that has come out. I followCulture Amp's research very
well.
Their DEI team does an amazingjob of putting together reports.
(21:20):
And this aroundintersectionality, right? This
is what this report was talkingabout regarding disability and
just this concept that we do. Wehave people with multiple that
identify with multiplemarginalized communities
identities. And how it actuallythe statistics get worse with
(21:43):
the more identities that youhave associated with the
marginalized community.
So for someone who isneurodivergent, just
neurodivergent, we're nottalking about race, ethnicity.
For someone to disclose thatthey have a disability to you
tells me there is a level oftrust there, that they're
entrusting you, that you'regoing to do the right thing with
(22:03):
that information. And they'retaking a huge risk because,
unfortunately, for those whohave disclosed, statistics say
there's an likely chance of anadverse impact. Right? So for
them to do that and take thatrisk to potentially lie to you,
to tell you they'reneurodivergent, that they can
have their camera off, it's awild idea.
(22:25):
Yeah. I'm not saying impossible.It's just wild.
Rhona Pierce (22:28):
Exactly. That's the best way to say it. It's a
wild idea. In addition to someof the things that you've
already mentioned, what are someother practical accommodations
that can be made so that you canensure that neurodivergent
candidates have a fair chance toshow their skills?
Tameka Allen (22:44):
Yep. Absolutely. So setting expectations in
advance with as much context aspossible. And I say that meaning
upfront, typical things we willcontinue to be like a stellar
experience for candidates.Right?
Sending interview questions inadvance, but even upon that
(23:05):
first touch point of candidatescoming into your pipeline from
before the first interview,giving context of who they're
going to be talking to, what youall can expect to talk about,
how long the interview is goingto be, how many stages are in
the interview process, justinformation so that for a lot of
us, having that context inadvance can help us prepare for
(23:28):
us to show up at our best. Butjust communicating those things
in advance, which actually,these are all things that
normally tick up those NPSscores for candidates in
interview processes. Right?Offering various forms of
communication. So kind of goingback to this thing around, you
know, folks having an issue withcandidates being off camera.
(23:48):
Well, you can communicate tothem that you they need to be on
camera. Right? That is arequirement. But offering
various options of ways tocommunicate. So if someone wants
to show up off camera, oncamera, maybe they prefer a
phone call.
You have some people who can dothat. Right? So just offering
those various forms ofcommunication and being open to
(24:10):
that. And then the other thingaside from, like I mentioned
before, automatically turning onthe captions, is getting rid of
the gotcha questions. Like, justreally being strategic around
the questions that you're askingbecause this is a telltale sign
you probably should work on yourinterview processes by opening
up asking a candidate, tell meabout yourself.
(24:32):
This question is so wideopening. Anyone who's had a
candidate, they say, is longwinded or whatever. You open the
door by asking them, tell meabout yourself. Right? Be more
specific.
Like, ask yourself, what is thepoint? What is it we're trying
to learn about the candidate byasking this question? Because at
minimum, from a compliancestandpoint, now you're treading
(24:54):
into waters that could open upconversations about protected
class. Maybe they've been acaregiver. Maybe they took time
off after they had a child.
Maybe they took a mentalwellness break. These are not
conversations we want to behaving with candidates because
it opens other doors. We don'twant these things to interview
notes. Like, it's just it's notequitable. I guess not fair.
Rhona Pierce (25:14):
Yes. And I love that you mentioned we don't want
these things in interview notesbecause, look, anyone who's been
recruiting for a long time, youknow, you can edit that out and
you can be like, okay. I'm notthe candidate disclosed, I'm not
gonna write that in theinterview notes. Perfect. Guess
what?
Now most ATSs, most companiesare, and I agree with this,
(25:35):
using AI to transcribeinterviews. That's gonna save us
a lot of time. Well, if you'reasking things that are gonna get
you that type of answer and AIis transcribing it, it is in the
notes. Even if you edit it,that's saved. And we could talk
about that at length.
If you don't want things thatcould get you in legal trouble,
(25:56):
don't ask things that could giveyou answers that could get you
in legal trouble. Yes. Simple.
Tameka Allen (26:02):
Yes. Yes. And all of these things are tied to
employer brand. Candidates talk.They're going to go back and
tell other people about thisexperience.
And in a perfect world, right,when things are done, not, I
won't say perfect, but whenthings are done well, ideally,
if some if a candidate is hiredor not, you want them to walk
(26:23):
away from that experience tosay, you know what? I didn't get
selected, but this is the one ofthe best interview processes
I've ever been in. I've had thatfeedback from candidates by
making some of these changesthat we talked about.
Rhona Pierce (26:35):
Yes. And that's the best feeling. You know, that
feeling when you send arejection email and you get a
reply, because I always send myrejection emails from me and any
team that I've led, we don't useno reply for rejection emails.
Tameka Allen (26:46):
Okay. That's good.
Rhona Pierce (26:48):
And you get the hate. You get hate back and
okay. You understand it. Butwhen you get a thank you email
from someone that you rejectedbecause your process made them
feel like a human. Yeah.
That's why I do what I do.
Tameka Allen (27:03):
Yep. I love that.
Rhona Pierce (27:05):
Yeah. So we've spoken a bit about this. What
are some practical steps? Okay.So we've spoken about sending
interview questions, explainingthe process.
I go a bit and even say createvideos. We're inter introducing
some of the people, the keyplayers that are gonna be in the
process and explaining all ofthese things. Is there anything
(27:28):
else that companies can do tomake their interview process
more accessible for neurodiversecandidates?
Tameka Allen (27:35):
Yep. So I wanna preface this with 2 things. One,
kind of going back to thepractical accommodations.
Accommodations are so much morethan a checklist. I think, I've
seen there be pushback aroundthis area after a candidate
starts if they disclose, here,let's go through the
(27:56):
accommodations process.
And then they say it and forgetit, and it's never readdressed.
And the reason why it's reallyimportant to understand why this
is more than a checklist isbecause if you have someone who
has been neuro diagnosisneurodivergent as an adult,
they're having to relearn,right, how to support
(28:18):
themselves, unlearn the art ofmasking, and really being
transparent and being aware ofwhat they're experiencing so
that they can ask for or supportthemselves or ask for support.
So in that relearning andreadjusting, there's gonna
inevitably you're gonna have toadjust the accommodations as
well. There are gonna be thingsthey're gonna become aware of
(28:41):
after day 1 or after their firsttouch point. 60 days, 6 months,
even a year, they're gonnacontinue to become aware of new
things and new ways that theycould navigate they need to
navigate from day to day.
The other part is, aside fromgoing through this checklist,
right, is is super, superimportant. And I've seen the
(29:05):
most impactful change when youhave leaders who have growth
mindsets, who are not justfocused on doing things one way,
who are not just looking forcandidates to do things exactly
the way that they want them to.Right? And realize, like my mom
used to say, there's more thanone way to pluck a chicken.
There's more than one way toaccomplish an outcome.
(29:27):
And without embracing thatgrowth mindset, these things
will appear to be performative.Right? And it also takes away
from that candidate experiencebecause the leader is not
understanding you're not anexpert in this area. The
candidate knows what's going onwith them. Right?
(29:49):
And most accommodations areeither free or low cost. They
are.
Rhona Pierce (29:55):
Would it be appropriate for, let's say,
first because I know I usuallyinclude in the scheduling link,
you know, you're using aCalendly or something. You ask
if someone needs accommodations.And people usually answer it for
the first one with therecruiter, not necessarily for
the subsequent ones with hiringmanagers and teams. Would it be
(30:16):
appropriate for a recruiter,anyone guiding and organizing
the process to reach back tocandidates, like, midway and
see, like, hey. So far, you'vedone so good.
You're moving on to the nextone. Are there any
accommodations? Like, is itappropriate to ask that again
throughout the process?
Tameka Allen (30:32):
Absolutely. And I've even trained hiring
managers if a candidate nottelling them a specific
candidate, but just in training.If a candidate asks for
accommodations and shares thatwith you, that immediately
connect sync with us so that wecan take that process from
there. So that's superimportant, and that's a very
valid point. So thanks for forbringing that out.
(30:54):
But to further answer yourquestion around those practical
steps that organizations cantake, like I said, first, just
making sure you have that growthmindset to understand this is a
learning process. Right? It'ssomething that is gonna be a
focus of continuous improvement.But first, I would say start
with auditing your hiringprocess. Are you using candidate
(31:16):
experience surveys to collectdata, quantitative and
qualitative data, on what ishappening in your interview
processes.
Right? If you're a people,talent, or even DEI
practitioner, or maybe it's youhaving listening tours, just
sitting in our interviewsobserving what's going on.
Right? So you can, properlyassess the picture that's
(31:39):
happening in your individualcandidate experience and
interview processes. If you'renot collecting that feedback
from candidates, it is reallycritical to do so.
Right? I think there hasn't beentoo many organizations that have
not had an issue with negativeglass door reviews or other
sites that are coming out doingsomething similar. I think you'd
(32:02):
be doing yourself a disserviceif you don't collect that
information. If you wannaimprove those candidate
experiences, you have to gettheir perspective on what's
going on and see if you canidentify those themes of what's
happening. And then justcontinuously train, learn,
rinse, and repeat.
Train your people, talent teams,and the interviewers coming
(32:22):
through the process for thiscaring experience so everyone is
on the same page and understandthe opportunity in front of
them. But also, it creates lesswork because now you're not
having to take all this energyto go back and try to fix these
broken experiences or try tounfortunately, I've seen this
organizations do this and happento have a conversation. Just
(32:46):
very negative Glassdoor reviewswith positive ones instead of
just fixing the process in thefirst place.
Rhona Pierce (32:53):
And what I tell the companies that I work with
is gone are the days where anegative Glassdoor review was
your biggest problem. Becausehere's the thing. People could
turn on their phone a quick 15second, 32nd video on TikTok
about what they experience withyou will go viral, and there's
(33:15):
no amount of positive videosthat you can do to shove it down
like you used to do withGlassdoor reviews. So ask
candidates proactively and fixstuff. Yes.
Yep. Because tanking youremployee your employer brand is
so easy.
Tameka Allen (33:37):
Yes. It is easy. It is it's absolutely easy.
Rhona Pierce (33:41):
So we all know that change can be met with
resistance sometimes, especiallyin what we do because everyone
thinks they know how to hire andeveryone thinks they're doing it
the right way. And who are yourecruiter to tell me how to do
it? But can you share a storyabout how you've helped a
skeptical leader or member of ateam, because we do have people,
(34:05):
NTA teams that are skepticalabout this, value neuroinclusive
hiring.
Tameka Allen (34:11):
Mhmm. I in a past role, there was an executive
leader who literally said thisto the TA team. And all those
interviewers who were not on theTA team. Look for a reason not
to hire them. And I was reallythrown.
I'm like, wait, what? And sowhat we decided to do was at
(34:35):
this point, we implementedcandidate experience surveys.
Within those surveys, weincluded a voluntary self
identification so that we couldcustomize those identities,
right, that were come comingthrough more than the standard
EEOC form would have. We didthis over the course of a
quarter. And at the end of thequarter, we sat down, collected
(34:56):
all the data, we analyzed it,and we found things with
identities associated withdisabled vets, with women, with
those who identify with theLGBTQI plus community, and
ethnicity and race.
And yet the largest consistentcomplaint came from the
(35:18):
neurodivergent community. I havebad experience. Like, it was it
was shockingly large. I mean,like, close to 50% of the people
who did that. And and I waswondering.
I'm like, wow. How do we get somany people to to disclose that
voluntarily? And one of the wayswe did that was after as people
(35:42):
entered the interview process,we gave them a heads up that
they were gonna be gettingfrequent touch points to
check-in around this during thepipeline experience and share
with them how we plan to usethis data and that we wanted one
of our intentions was to improvethe interview process. And so
we're just kinda giving thatheads up and setting those
(36:03):
expectations and giving thereason why. Based on the
results, people felt morecomfortable sharing that
information.
Rhona Pierce (36:10):
Yeah. It's it's amazing. It's like that's the
basic human. Like, even when youcreate a poll on LinkedIn or
Twitter or something like that,when you tell people what you're
gonna use the data for, you getmore engagement. You get more
answers.
So, yes, definitely. When youhave these surveys, tell
candidates. Yeah. 1, tell themabout it before they get slapped
(36:32):
with it randomly, and tell themwhat you're going to do with
that information. Yes.
That's one part of thing. Theother part that I like is having
data is how you can make changesas a TA person with an
executive. Right? Because theycan't argue with data. They
literally can't.
Tameka Allen (36:52):
And that's what happened in this situation that
catapulted to a completerevamping of hiring processes
and un undoing this thought oflooking for reasons not to hire
people.
Rhona Pierce (37:07):
That's such an old school approach to hiring that I
fought because I don't come fromthe traditional TA. I didn't
grow up in the TA world. I was asoftware engineer Mhmm. Who
moved to TA. I've always lookedat things differently, and I'm
like, what do you mean we'retrying to find reasons why not
to hire them?
(37:28):
No. I'm trying to figure out whyI should hire them. That's my
approach when I go into aninterview.
Tameka Allen (37:34):
Wow. I love that.
Rhona Pierce (37:36):
I don't know. For to me, sometimes it's hard to
understand how people think in acertain way because it's just
like, I don't see it that way.But I mean, it it is what it is.
It's out there. And that's whyhaving data and having, like,
this communication withcandidates is really how you can
make change to people who thinkdifferently than you, and
(37:58):
they're not seeing it.
They're not I have thisfundamental belief that most
executives and most hiringmanagers and people outside of
TA, they are not saying any ofthese things on purpose. They're
not out to, like Mhmm. They'renot evil people. They're not
it's just literally what they'velearned along the way because no
(38:20):
one teaches you how to hire.It's what they've learned along
the way and what they'vebelieved.
Tameka Allen (38:25):
Yeah. And to add to that, I thought about, I
really I agree with you. I do.Because most leaders that I
engage, when we have theseconversations and they have
these moments, one of the firstthings they say is, I didn't
know. Right?
And I can honestly say, unlessyou're in that world purposely,
it can be really easy tooverlook these things and
(38:46):
assume. But I think this is theimportance of surrounding
yourself with people who lookand think differently than you,
that you can understand theirexperiences. I can remember when
my my daughter was diagnosed andone of my best friends, she
presented, very hyperactive.Right? And I remember one of my
best friends, she was like,whew.
(39:06):
She is doing a lot. Right? And,it was maybe a year or so later,
her son was diagnosed as well.And she just looked at me, and
she said, I'm so sorry. And Isaid, you didn't know.
Right? So I say all that to say,for the most part, people when
they know better, they dobetter. But just and when we
(39:27):
think about from the businessperspective, why this can be
embracing this talent can be sovaluable is because I've seen it
time and time again. Andstatistically, when we're in
spaces that allow us to work inthe ways in which our brain
works, we're like 30 or 40% moreproductive than our neurotypical
counterparts. Right?
Because we're allowed to workand flow in a way that works for
(39:50):
us that still gets the bestoutcome. Right? So just
embracing that mindset. This iswhat creates innovation in
companies that make seriousmoney. Right?
I've seen it year over yearprofits well over 100%,
retaining teams, retainingcustomers, closing deals. Like,
(40:12):
I'm just seeing it so many timesthat I just hope we continue to
tap into this this demographic.
Rhona Pierce (40:18):
I love that you've mentioned all of those, like,
ripple effect, things thathappen from neuroinclusive
hiring practices because at theend of the day, that's the
information that you can takeback to leaders. That's what
they wanna know because it'slike, cool. Why am I doing this
if what I've been doing so farhas been working for me? Well,
has it? Because if we do this,then we get higher productivity,
(40:44):
innovation, all the things thatyou've mentioned.
Any other ripple effect type ofthings that that happen as a
result of neuroinclusive hiring?
Tameka Allen (40:52):
Yeah. So long term post onboarding, I've seen it
improve employee engagement aswell as retention. Because
here's the thing I'm not surethat people understand and
realize around those of us whoidentify with a disability. For
those of us who choose tocontinue our career internally,
the last thing we want to bedoing is going through another
(41:14):
interview process. Like, realtalk.
Like, we're more motivated tokeep the job, right, as long as
we're able to work in a way thatworks along with our brain, that
still benefits everyone.
Rhona Pierce (41:27):
Yes. And I could I mean, I don't have evidence for
this. I know for myself, that'strue for most people as well.
Interviewing and the job market,it's it sucks. Mhmm.
Unfortunately, it sucks. So whenyou treat people the right way,
(41:48):
beginning to end, they're goingto stay because who wants to go
back out there? I I mean, I knowI don't wanna go back out there
once you're in a company. You'vegone through all of this. So
imagine, like, not having tomask, not having to explain all
of this all over again.
(42:09):
Come on. Retention. Of course,retention is a great side effect
or ripple effect of this.
Tameka Allen (42:15):
It's good for business.
Rhona Pierce (42:17):
Yes. Yes. It is. So for listeners who are just,
like, starting to think aboutneurodiversity in their hiring
processes, what's like a smallbut impactful change they could
implement right away?
Tameka Allen (42:30):
I would say a small but effective change they
could make right away is if youare using Zoom, Microsoft Teams,
or another platform for yourinterview process, just turn the
captions on. Turn them on. Andthen the other thing I would say
is for those who have some sortof in person interviews, provide
(42:51):
those interview questions andthings, but provide a visual
around your conversation. Iremember, just talking about
many of our conditions areimpact our working memory.
Right?
And I remember, having to have aconversation with the hiring
manager because they wanted todisqualify a candidate because
they couldn't memorize thecompany values. Come on. We I
(43:17):
was we end up having adiscussion of why why is this in
here? They can find that on thewebsite. But helping them
understand that there areidentities of protected class
where it could impact theirworking memory.
And for you to provide this tothem verbally and then having
them recite that back to you isan equitable process and could
(43:38):
inadvertently reject candidateswho identify with a disability
out of the process.
Rhona Pierce (43:43):
I have so many questions. Why are you even
asking that in an interview?It's like, you know, the worst
feeling a candidate can have issitting there. And I know
because I've had it is sittingthere and thinking, why are you
asking me this question?
Tameka Allen (43:57):
Mhmm. Why? Which is why it's important to audit
those interview processes andreally ask those questions. Why
are we asking this? What doesthis have to do with qualifying
the candidate aligning with theessential function of the job?
Please share that with me.
Rhona Pierce (44:13):
Yes. That's such a great question. I hope
everyone's taking note of itbecause it's like, yes. There
are nicer ways of that. Why areyou asking this question?
How is this helping us figureout that this person is going to
be successful in this role, inthis company, on this team?
Tameka Allen (44:32):
Mhmm.
Rhona Pierce (44:33):
So this has been an amazing conversation. I'm so
glad we got to chat more afteryour your talk at breakfast. I
really wanted to dig in more andbe able to share with the
listeners of this podcast. Howcan listeners connect with you?
Tameka Allen (44:51):
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Veronika, for
having me. It was so great tomeet you in person. We're in
Nashville, so I enjoyed our timetogether then and now. Listeners
can connect with me on LinkedInat Tameka N Allen on LinkedIn.
They can also check me out on mywebsite for my company, my
culture at, modculture.co.
Rhona Pierce (45:14):
Amazing. And I'm going to include all of those
links in the show notes, andI'll also include and I haven't
asked you about this, but I knowthat guide that you included
after your breakfastconversation was amazing, and I
would love to share it withlisteners. So I'll get a link
from you so that we can includethat also in the show notes.
(45:37):
Trust me. That guide is it'sgreat.
Tameka Allen (45:41):
Excellent. Absolutely. Let's do it.
Perfect.
Rhona Pierce (45:44):
If you want more actionable advice, like the
advice shared in this episode, Iwrite a weekly newsletter for TA
professionals who want to take amore strategic approach to
recruiting. You can sign up atthrowouttheplaybook.com/newsletter.
That'sthrowouttheplaybook.com/newsletter.
(46:05):
The link is in the show notes.
We would never ask someone who we could visibly see
is paralyzed to walk up a flightof stairs. We just wouldn't.
Rhona Pierce (00:12):
Tameka Allen is transforming how companies think
about inclusive hiring. But whenher journey began with her
daughter's diagnosis, sheuncovered a shocking reality
about our workplace.
Tameka Allen (00:25):
Just in the US, our population of those of us
who identify as neurodivergentis about 20%. But when you look
at subsets of our community,that group tends to have around
85 to 90% unemployment rate.
Rhona Pierce (00:40):
That's a big chunk that we're overlooking, really.
Tamika realized that hiringpractices often unintentionally
exclude qualified candidates bysetting neurotypical standards
for interviews. So what ismasking?
Tameka Allen (01:00):
When we're in spaces that allow us to work in
the ways in which our brainworks, we're like 30 to 40% more
productive than our neurotypicalcounterparts.
Rhona Pierce (01:10):
I have so many questions. Why are you even
asking that in an interview?
Tameka Allen (01:13):
Which is why it's important to audit those
interview processes and reallyask those questions. What does
this have to do with qualifyingthe candidate?
Rhona Pierce (01:21):
Tameka shares her vision for a hiring process
that's accessible to everyone,not just those who fit a
standard mold.
Tameka Allen (01:29):
For the most part, people, when they know better,
they do better. Embracing thatmindset, this is what creates
innovation in companies thatmake serious money.
Rhona Pierce (01:41):
I am so excited to have you on the show today,
Tamika.
Tameka Allen (01:45):
Oh, thanks so much for having me, Rhonda. I'm
excited to be here.
Rhona Pierce (01:48):
So can you tell us a bit about, like, your
background and background andhow you became interested in
neuroinclusive practices?
Tameka Allen (01:55):
Yeah. Absolutely. So, this started quite a bit
ago, my first discovery andmoment around it, and it
actually started with mydaughter. So one of my daughters
was diagnosed, neurodivergent.She was in elementary school at
the time.
I remember her teacher came tome and basically started to
share, you know, I feel likethere might be some some
(02:17):
learning challenges or uniquelearning abilities there. And so
I noticed some things as well,so she recommended we have her
assessed. So we did that with aprivate psychologist. School
psychologist got involved andwere able to put some pieces
together to her puzzle. And as Iwas looking over her
(02:38):
evaluations, Rona, I just keptlaughing because I kept
recognizing some things inmyself.
And I'm like, oh, I do that too.I'm like, oh, that looks
familiar. I do that as well. Andas I started to relearn how to
support her as well as myself, Ialso started to see some things
(02:58):
mirrored in candidate employeeexperiences at work. So I've
been working with people andtalent for quite some time in
various facets.
Look, the first notice for mecame up during candidate
interviews. And it wasn't about,like, diagnosing people, but I
just kept noticing them. My god.That feels very familiar.
Whether someone disclosed ornot, I started to first notice
(03:22):
this as those candidate employeeexperiences seem to be swinging
the direction of someone who isneurotypical.
Right. Well, I can certainlyexplain what that means so
people can understand. Sosomeone neurotypical would be
someone whose thoughts, ideas,perceptions really align with
(03:43):
what we consider societal norms.So things we hear about in job
postings or interview processes.So thinking faster in your feed,
being able to pivot whenrequired, multitasking, those
types of things.
So I would say after herdiagnosis as well as later mine,
(04:03):
that's when I it gave me kind oflike this unique lens to where
now I'm taking a second look atthings, wondering, this looks
familiar, and how can we makethis experience better on
whether someone disclosed ornot?
Rhona Pierce (04:17):
That's amazing. It's always good when, like, you
have the realization somethingin your personal life, and then
you bring it to work. Because,like, we're working with people
in TA so in so many differentpeople and so quickly that those
moments, and I think everyonehas had them, make you be a
(04:39):
better recruiter, a better TAperson. And also HR and employee
experience, it just helps youconnect and understand people
better even if people don't selfdisclose. And, yeah, like you
said, you're not diagnosingpeople.
You're just picking up on thingsand you see things a different
way.
Tameka Allen (04:59):
Yeah.
Rhona Pierce (05:00):
Has any of that shaped your work that you do
with neuroinclusiveenvironments?
Tameka Allen (05:08):
Yep. Absolutely. After my diagnosis and having
kind of this moment, I startedto dig into the data because I'm
I'm curious. I'm always lookingfor information, research, love
reading. And I started to findsome interesting things that
maybe lean into this a littlebit more that led to, we've
(05:28):
definitely got to do somethingabout this.
So some of those behaviors, likeI told you about, that were a
bit biased to those who thinkneurotypically. Communicating
conscious concisely and quickly,multitasking, quick actions on
the fly. And when I started todig into the data, I'm like,
well, what kind of populationare we looking at here? Am I
alone in this thing? So Istarted to post on LinkedIn
(05:51):
about my journey, but also as Iwas researching, found out just
in the US, our population ofthose of us who identify as
neurodivergent is about 20%.
I'm like, that's prettysignificant. I quickly found out
I wasn't alone and thatironically, the unemployment
rate for us is extremely high aswell, 30 or 40%, when you look
(06:16):
at just overall for theneurodivergent community. But
when you look at subsets of ourcommunity, like, for instance,
autism, those with autism, thatgroup tends to have around 85 to
90% unemployment rate. It'sextremely high. And I just
thought it was more than acoincidence that oftentimes
(06:36):
these behaviors that causepeople to be rejected out of
interview processes happen toalign with behaviors that are
associated with neurodivergentconditions.
And that's when I said I said,something's gotta give. We've
gotta change these processes sothat they're more equitable, so
at least people can show up attheir best, so we can properly
(06:58):
assess them objectively in theinterview process. A couple
other things came up, like, is Istarted to look at the size of
this community in comparison toother marginalized communities.
Right? So from women, right,which is probably the biggest
group that we have when it comesto marginalized communities here
(07:20):
in the US, even more so thanthose with physical
disabilities, ethnicity, race,sex, gender identity, like just
that group alone of us who areneurodivergent, it's pretty
significant size.
And so but most organizationswho are implementing now this is
(07:42):
just the organizations who areimplementing DEI in their
strategies within thoseorganizations. Only about 4% of
those organizations includedisabilities. That's visible and
non visible disabilities. That'snot even just the neurodivergent
community. So when you put allof that together in a picture,
it leaves this enormousopportunity that I believe we're
(08:04):
missing and overlooking thistalent.
Rhona Pierce (08:07):
Yeah. That's that's a big chunk that we're
overlooking, really. Evencompanies doing or actively
working on diversity andinclusion. That's that's
important work that you'redoing.
Tameka Allen (08:24):
It's very telling. Right? If we just take a look at
it and like I said, for me, ithappened to me taking a closer
look, happened to come through apersonal experience, not
realizing what I was gonnadiscover when I started digging
into things professionally. Soso from that, I started to learn
as we were implementing andchanging interview processes,
(08:45):
how much it benefited those whowere not neurodivergent as well.
And thinking there's a there's awin win here for everyone if we
just stop and pay attention.
Rhona Pierce (08:54):
What are some of the biggest challenges
neurodivergent candidates facelike in traditional job
interviews?
Tameka Allen (09:01):
So not knowing what they'll be asked. Maybe
when you're building out apipeline and deciding who will
be in the interview process, youdecide on a set of folks, but
then you change it in the middleof the process. So a candidate
might be walking to an interviewwanting thinking they're gonna
be meeting with 1 person, andmaybe now it's someone
completely different. Or maybeit's now more than one person
(09:25):
that is going to be joining thatconversation and the candidate
doesn't know. Right?
Oftentimes, becauseneurodivergent talent is trying
to find those places where theycan show up in the ways in which
their brain works, Maybe thereare some short stints in on
their resume that people wouldconsider to be job hoppers.
Right? Or maybe it was due tosomething related to their
(09:48):
condition is the reason why theyhave those short stints.
Communication. So processingaudible information.
Right? Especially if you'rewalking into a situation for a
virtual interview and thecaptions are on in that call,
which I find that pretty common,unfortunately, to where, you
know, you have this technology,you invest in it for your teams,
(10:11):
but this is a simple switch thatcould be turned on. Here's a big
one. Picking up on social cues.Right?
And I'll use myself as anexample. I remember in one of my
past roles, it wasn't uncommonfor junior recruiters to come to
me because they wanted to shadowmy interviews. And I remember
one particular instance, Rongal,where a junior recruiter was
(10:33):
shadowing an interview. Andafterwards, we were debriefing
about the candidate. And sheasked she said, did you mind if
I share something with you?
And I said, no. Absolutely. Goahead. And she said, I felt like
that candidate was reallycondescending to you. I said,
really?
And when she reminded me of whathe was saying in the moment, I
(10:54):
didn't catch that because thatthat's something that comes
along with where I am. But shebrought it to my attention, and
it's evidence of, oftentimes, wehave to process after the fact
to really understand. And sothat's why, for me, I will
almost never tell a candidate inan interview whether or not they
were going to move forward ornot. But in this instance, can
(11:16):
you imagine what that might looklike with the candidate who's
not picking up on cues from arecruiter, right, or a hiring
manager in an interview process?So these are some of the things
in addition to masking.
Right?
Rhona Pierce (11:29):
So what is masking?
Tameka Allen (11:31):
Yeah. So masking is basically us showing up in a
way that does not reveal ourcondition. And that can happen
whether we know it or not. Irealized even after my diagnosis
that I had been masking, like,my entire life, showing up in a
way to where I'll be accepted,where I'll fit in, and it can
(11:55):
really cause a lot of distressfor someone who's
neurodivergent, which is anotherreason why these processes
should be more inclusive.
Rhona Pierce (12:04):
Yeah. I mean, I I had heard of the term masking as
I was preparing for thisinterview, and it's just I have
neurodivergent people in myfamily. I won't disclose on
their behalf, but it gave melike such sadness to know that
we've created a society wherepeople feel that they have to
(12:27):
act in a certain way. It's like,who says because most people and
really after hearing some ofthese statistics, does not
really most people, but who saysbecause a lot of people act this
way, everyone else needs to actthis way. And how are we going
about and talking aboutdiversity, equity, and inclusion
(12:49):
for so many years when there isa huge part of the population
acting in a way that makes usinclude them.
That blows my mind. So sad.
Tameka Allen (13:01):
Yeah. Yeah. It's mind boggling to wonder, and
it's been the norm for so long.Right? But I'm grateful for as
sad as those statistics make me,I'm grateful that we know now
because we can we can start tomake change.
Rhona Pierce (13:14):
Yeah. Because once you know and everyone listening
or watching this episode, onceyou know, you now have the
responsibility to make change.And as TA people in
organizations, this is such easythings. Like you said, you
mentioned the captions, and Iheard you speak at at breakfast,
and it's like, oh my gosh. Yeah.
(13:37):
We have it there, and people canrequest. But why are we waiting
for people to request? Like, theamount of people that are gonna
say, please turn off thecaptions is so like, no one's
gonna say that. So just havethem turned on. That way, people
who need it don't have to askyou for it.
Simple things like that.
Tameka Allen (13:56):
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Because, I mean,
from an ADA perspective, we'vebeen doing this with physical
buildings for a long time,right? Having ramps, elevators,
things to where we would neverask someone who we could visibly
see is paralyzed to walk up aflight of stairs.
We just wouldn't. Most buildingshave it accessible to where no
(14:19):
one has to ask that's alreadyprepared because they already
anticipate someone with aphysical disability is going to
come. And this is the way I wishwe will approach more of
interviews with candidates.
Rhona Pierce (14:30):
That is such great perspective, and I hadn't
thought about it that way, butit's true. You like, the ramps
are there. The designatedparking spots are there. For
blind people, the on the signs.Yeah.
The braille. Mhmm. It's there.You they don't have to ask you
for these things. Greatperspective.
What are some commonmisconceptions about
(14:53):
neurodivergent candidates thatyou found throughout your work,
and how do you help hiringmanagers see things differently?
Tameka Allen (15:01):
Yeah. A couple examples come to mind. Like,
this is a big one. We've heard alot about this on LinkedIn.
Being off camera during avirtual interview.
And also, even if you're inperson, maybe the maybe the
candidate isn't giving youdirect eye contact. And so when
I think about when these thingshave come up with hiring
(15:21):
managers, here's how I go abouthelping them understand why this
is not equitable. Right? So justsay a hiring manager, I've had
this happen, rejected wanted toreject a qualified candidate
because they were off camera.And I asked them, I said, tell
me more about that.
Why you feel that way? And whyare you leaning towards this
decision? And they would tellme, you know, this isn't
(15:45):
professional. How do I know it'sreally them? These are some of
the objections that I would getreject objections that I would
get.
And so I would just kind ofclarify. So I'm hearing you say.
Right? And then as I go into myresponse, I want to make sure
that I'm protecting thecandidate. Because if they've
disclosed, right, we'll shareaccommodations and things that
(16:07):
need to take place in aninterview process for someone
who has disclosed.
But we're not going to disclose,right, a conditioning of a
candidate shared or anythinglike that. So I'll make sure to
protect the candidate whetherthey disclose or not to say the
candidate has not disclosed thisto me. This is from my
experience and my knowledge,helping those in accommodations
(16:29):
that some of the behaviors youjust described, like being off
camera, could be related to acondition that causes sensory
overload. And so this isn'tsomething we want to penalize a
candidate for. Right?
And that this behavior bealigned with a protected class.
(16:49):
And so if the manager hasn't hadany training on this, we go into
the discussion about what thatmeans. Right? So based on the
essential functions of the job,why do you wish to reject this
candidate? And so that's usuallythe question I leave them with,
and some have been able toanswer me.
Others haven't. In thisparticular instance, the manager
(17:09):
couldn't answer me. And so thatcandidate did move forward in
the interview process. They werelater rejected, but it was for
an objective reason. Right?
And so that was a learninglesson for that hiring manager
to understand. And from thatpoint on, they really whenever
we would have a debrief about acandidate, whether it had to do
with someone potentially showingthese behaviors or not, They
(17:31):
were a bit more open andunderstood the importance of
their reasoning behind theirtheir higher decisions.
Rhona Pierce (17:38):
Just asking that and really centering as TA
people, that's what we should bedoing in general for every
candidate. It's like, I mean,I'm sure you've heard it. I've
heard so many things for reasonsto reject someone. And it's
like, the biggest way I'velearned to control my face has
been by talking to hiringmanagers and asking them why
(18:00):
they wanna reject someone.Because I've heard I've heard
some wild things.
And when you spoke at breakfastabout turning off the cameras, I
know you got a question from theaudience, and I also see this
online if people are like, well,how am I gonna know it's really
the candidate? And I've had thatquestion asked as well, and I
(18:22):
think I shared it with you, 2stories of why this doesn't even
matter. In person interview. Sowe're talking this was probably
2014. In person interview, I didphone interviews and everything,
and the recruiter so I was thehiring manager.
Right? So the recruiter had hadspoken to the candidate. When
(18:45):
the candidate comes to theoffice, I am sitting and I am
talking to this person, and I ama 100% confident this is not the
person I spoke to on the phone.This is absolutely not that
person. After the interview, Idebriefed with a recruiter, and
it just I said something like,oh, it was interesting.
(19:06):
They had this accent. They'relike, they had done a in person
interview. It was a differentperson just when we talked about
it. So people were scammingbecause it does happen,
especially in tech. It happens alot.
They're going to do it even ifyou're virtual or not. That's
one example. Another example isI've hired someone, and this is
(19:30):
one of my mistakes in hiringthat I did, but I had no clue.
Interview was perfect. It wasvirtual.
Interview was perfect.Everything, candidate looked
great. Person was hired. Right?Person who shows up for work is
not the candidate that I hired.
(19:51):
And it was just like, we didn'tknow. It was a couple of weeks.
And then I just, hey. You know,I'm a recruiter who likes to
check-in with people to see howthey're doing, and this is a
remote job. And it's like, let'sjump on a quick Zoom.
And they try to avoid it, butI'm like, no. No. No. It doesn't
matter if you're not ready. Itdoesn't like, come on.
It's just me. Different human.Like, totally different human.
(20:15):
So all of that to say, justbecause someone doesn't turn on
their camera during an interviewdoesn't mean that they're
scamming or anything like that.Yes.
It's most likely something ofwhat you've mentioned. And
there's so many other conditionsas far as people live in places
where they're not comfortable.They they don't have the privacy
(20:39):
to have a interview without thebackground distracting or
they're not proud of theirbackground. So many things. So
when we talk about diversity,equity, and inclusion, things
like someone not turning ontheir camera during an interview
are not that is not adisqualifier.
It shouldn't be.
Tameka Allen (20:58):
That's right. That's right. Especially given
only about 4% of employees withdisabilities disclose. So this
person is taking it becausestatistically, I was and I
mentioned this at RecFest aswell, there's been some research
that has come out. I followCulture Amp's research very
well.
Their DEI team does an amazingjob of putting together reports.
(21:20):
And this aroundintersectionality, right? This
is what this report was talkingabout regarding disability and
just this concept that we do. Wehave people with multiple that
identify with multiplemarginalized communities
identities. And how it actuallythe statistics get worse with
(21:43):
the more identities that youhave associated with the
marginalized community.
So for someone who isneurodivergent, just
neurodivergent, we're nottalking about race, ethnicity.
For someone to disclose thatthey have a disability to you
tells me there is a level oftrust there, that they're
entrusting you, that you'regoing to do the right thing with
(22:03):
that information. And they'retaking a huge risk because,
unfortunately, for those whohave disclosed, statistics say
there's an likely chance of anadverse impact. Right? So for
them to do that and take thatrisk to potentially lie to you,
to tell you they'reneurodivergent, that they can
have their camera off, it's awild idea.
(22:25):
Yeah. I'm not saying impossible.It's just wild.
Rhona Pierce (22:28):
Exactly. That's the best way to say it. It's a
wild idea. In addition to someof the things that you've
already mentioned, what are someother practical accommodations
that can be made so that you canensure that neurodivergent
candidates have a fair chance toshow their skills?
Tameka Allen (22:44):
Yep. Absolutely. So setting expectations in
advance with as much context aspossible. And I say that meaning
upfront, typical things we willcontinue to be like a stellar
experience for candidates.Right?
Sending interview questions inadvance, but even upon that
(23:05):
first touch point of candidatescoming into your pipeline from
before the first interview,giving context of who they're
going to be talking to, what youall can expect to talk about,
how long the interview is goingto be, how many stages are in
the interview process, justinformation so that for a lot of
us, having that context inadvance can help us prepare for
(23:28):
us to show up at our best. Butjust communicating those things
in advance, which actually,these are all things that
normally tick up those NPSscores for candidates in
interview processes. Right?Offering various forms of
communication. So kind of goingback to this thing around, you
know, folks having an issue withcandidates being off camera.
(23:48):
Well, you can communicate tothem that you they need to be on
camera. Right? That is arequirement. But offering
various options of ways tocommunicate. So if someone wants
to show up off camera, oncamera, maybe they prefer a
phone call.
You have some people who can dothat. Right? So just offering
those various forms ofcommunication and being open to
(24:10):
that. And then the other thingaside from, like I mentioned
before, automatically turning onthe captions, is getting rid of
the gotcha questions. Like, justreally being strategic around
the questions that you're askingbecause this is a telltale sign
you probably should work on yourinterview processes by opening
up asking a candidate, tell meabout yourself.
(24:32):
This question is so wideopening. Anyone who's had a
candidate, they say, is longwinded or whatever. You open the
door by asking them, tell meabout yourself. Right? Be more
specific.
Like, ask yourself, what is thepoint? What is it we're trying
to learn about the candidate byasking this question? Because at
minimum, from a compliancestandpoint, now you're treading
(24:54):
into waters that could open upconversations about protected
class. Maybe they've been acaregiver. Maybe they took time
off after they had a child.
Maybe they took a mentalwellness break. These are not
conversations we want to behaving with candidates because
it opens other doors. We don'twant these things to interview
notes. Like, it's just it's notequitable. I guess not fair.
Rhona Pierce (25:14):
Yes. And I love that you mentioned we don't want
these things in interview notesbecause, look, anyone who's been
recruiting for a long time, youknow, you can edit that out and
you can be like, okay. I'm notthe candidate disclosed, I'm not
gonna write that in theinterview notes. Perfect. Guess
what?
Now most ATSs, most companiesare, and I agree with this,
(25:35):
using AI to transcribeinterviews. That's gonna save us
a lot of time. Well, if you'reasking things that are gonna get
you that type of answer and AIis transcribing it, it is in the
notes. Even if you edit it,that's saved. And we could talk
about that at length.
If you don't want things thatcould get you in legal trouble,
(25:56):
don't ask things that could giveyou answers that could get you
in legal trouble. Yes. Simple.
Tameka Allen (26:02):
Yes. Yes. And all of these things are tied to
employer brand. Candidates talk.They're going to go back and
tell other people about thisexperience.
And in a perfect world, right,when things are done, not, I
won't say perfect, but whenthings are done well, ideally,
if some if a candidate is hiredor not, you want them to walk
(26:23):
away from that experience tosay, you know what? I didn't get
selected, but this is the one ofthe best interview processes
I've ever been in. I've had thatfeedback from candidates by
making some of these changesthat we talked about.
Rhona Pierce (26:35):
Yes. And that's the best feeling. You know, that
feeling when you send arejection email and you get a
reply, because I always send myrejection emails from me and any
team that I've led, we don't useno reply for rejection emails.
Tameka Allen (26:46):
Okay. That's good.
Rhona Pierce (26:48):
And you get the hate. You get hate back and
okay. You understand it. Butwhen you get a thank you email
from someone that you rejectedbecause your process made them
feel like a human. Yeah.
That's why I do what I do.
Tameka Allen (27:03):
Yep. I love that.
Rhona Pierce (27:05):
Yeah. So we've spoken a bit about this. What
are some practical steps? Okay.So we've spoken about sending
interview questions, explainingthe process.
I go a bit and even say createvideos. We're inter introducing
some of the people, the keyplayers that are gonna be in the
process and explaining all ofthese things. Is there anything
(27:28):
else that companies can do tomake their interview process
more accessible for neurodiversecandidates?
Tameka Allen (27:35):
Yep. So I wanna preface this with 2 things. One,
kind of going back to thepractical accommodations.
Accommodations are so much morethan a checklist. I think, I've
seen there be pushback aroundthis area after a candidate
starts if they disclose, here,let's go through the
(27:56):
accommodations process.
And then they say it and forgetit, and it's never readdressed.
And the reason why it's reallyimportant to understand why this
is more than a checklist isbecause if you have someone who
has been neuro diagnosisneurodivergent as an adult,
they're having to relearn,right, how to support
(28:18):
themselves, unlearn the art ofmasking, and really being
transparent and being aware ofwhat they're experiencing so
that they can ask for or supportthemselves or ask for support.
So in that relearning andreadjusting, there's gonna
inevitably you're gonna have toadjust the accommodations as
well. There are gonna be thingsthey're gonna become aware of
(28:41):
after day 1 or after their firsttouch point. 60 days, 6 months,
even a year, they're gonnacontinue to become aware of new
things and new ways that theycould navigate they need to
navigate from day to day.
The other part is, aside fromgoing through this checklist,
right, is is super, superimportant. And I've seen the
(29:05):
most impactful change when youhave leaders who have growth
mindsets, who are not justfocused on doing things one way,
who are not just looking forcandidates to do things exactly
the way that they want them to.Right? And realize, like my mom
used to say, there's more thanone way to pluck a chicken.
There's more than one way toaccomplish an outcome.
(29:27):
And without embracing thatgrowth mindset, these things
will appear to be performative.Right? And it also takes away
from that candidate experiencebecause the leader is not
understanding you're not anexpert in this area. The
candidate knows what's going onwith them. Right?
(29:49):
And most accommodations areeither free or low cost. They
are.
Rhona Pierce (29:55):
Would it be appropriate for, let's say,
first because I know I usuallyinclude in the scheduling link,
you know, you're using aCalendly or something. You ask
if someone needs accommodations.And people usually answer it for
the first one with therecruiter, not necessarily for
the subsequent ones with hiringmanagers and teams. Would it be
(30:16):
appropriate for a recruiter,anyone guiding and organizing
the process to reach back tocandidates, like, midway and
see, like, hey. So far, you'vedone so good.
You're moving on to the nextone. Are there any
accommodations? Like, is itappropriate to ask that again
throughout the process?
Tameka Allen (30:32):
Absolutely. And I've even trained hiring
managers if a candidate nottelling them a specific
candidate, but just in training.If a candidate asks for
accommodations and shares thatwith you, that immediately
connect sync with us so that wecan take that process from
there. So that's superimportant, and that's a very
valid point. So thanks for forbringing that out.
(30:54):
But to further answer yourquestion around those practical
steps that organizations cantake, like I said, first, just
making sure you have that growthmindset to understand this is a
learning process. Right? It'ssomething that is gonna be a
focus of continuous improvement.But first, I would say start
with auditing your hiringprocess. Are you using candidate
(31:16):
experience surveys to collectdata, quantitative and
qualitative data, on what ishappening in your interview
processes.
Right? If you're a people,talent, or even DEI
practitioner, or maybe it's youhaving listening tours, just
sitting in our interviewsobserving what's going on.
Right? So you can, properlyassess the picture that's
(31:39):
happening in your individualcandidate experience and
interview processes. If you'renot collecting that feedback
from candidates, it is reallycritical to do so.
Right? I think there hasn't beentoo many organizations that have
not had an issue with negativeglass door reviews or other
sites that are coming out doingsomething similar. I think you'd
(32:02):
be doing yourself a disserviceif you don't collect that
information. If you wannaimprove those candidate
experiences, you have to gettheir perspective on what's
going on and see if you canidentify those themes of what's
happening. And then justcontinuously train, learn,
rinse, and repeat.
Train your people, talent teams,and the interviewers coming
(32:22):
through the process for thiscaring experience so everyone is
on the same page and understandthe opportunity in front of
them. But also, it creates lesswork because now you're not
having to take all this energyto go back and try to fix these
broken experiences or try tounfortunately, I've seen this
organizations do this and happento have a conversation. Just
(32:46):
very negative Glassdoor reviewswith positive ones instead of
just fixing the process in thefirst place.
Rhona Pierce (32:53):
And what I tell the companies that I work with
is gone are the days where anegative Glassdoor review was
your biggest problem. Becausehere's the thing. People could
turn on their phone a quick 15second, 32nd video on TikTok
about what they experience withyou will go viral, and there's
(33:15):
no amount of positive videosthat you can do to shove it down
like you used to do withGlassdoor reviews. So ask
candidates proactively and fixstuff. Yes.
Yep. Because tanking youremployee your employer brand is
so easy.
Tameka Allen (33:37):
Yes. It is easy. It is it's absolutely easy.
Rhona Pierce (33:41):
So we all know that change can be met with
resistance sometimes, especiallyin what we do because everyone
thinks they know how to hire andeveryone thinks they're doing it
the right way. And who are yourecruiter to tell me how to do
it? But can you share a storyabout how you've helped a
skeptical leader or member of ateam, because we do have people,
(34:05):
NTA teams that are skepticalabout this, value neuroinclusive
hiring.
Tameka Allen (34:11):
Mhmm. I in a past role, there was an executive
leader who literally said thisto the TA team. And all those
interviewers who were not on theTA team. Look for a reason not
to hire them. And I was reallythrown.
I'm like, wait, what? And sowhat we decided to do was at
(34:35):
this point, we implementedcandidate experience surveys.
Within those surveys, weincluded a voluntary self
identification so that we couldcustomize those identities,
right, that were come comingthrough more than the standard
EEOC form would have. We didthis over the course of a
quarter. And at the end of thequarter, we sat down, collected
(34:56):
all the data, we analyzed it,and we found things with
identities associated withdisabled vets, with women, with
those who identify with theLGBTQI plus community, and
ethnicity and race.
And yet the largest consistentcomplaint came from the
(35:18):
neurodivergent community. I havebad experience. Like, it was it
was shockingly large. I mean,like, close to 50% of the people
who did that. And and I waswondering.
I'm like, wow. How do we get somany people to to disclose that
voluntarily? And one of the wayswe did that was after as people
(35:42):
entered the interview process,we gave them a heads up that
they were gonna be gettingfrequent touch points to
check-in around this during thepipeline experience and share
with them how we plan to usethis data and that we wanted one
of our intentions was to improvethe interview process. And so
we're just kinda giving thatheads up and setting those
(36:03):
expectations and giving thereason why. Based on the
results, people felt morecomfortable sharing that
information.
Rhona Pierce (36:10):
Yeah. It's it's amazing. It's like that's the
basic human. Like, even when youcreate a poll on LinkedIn or
Twitter or something like that,when you tell people what you're
gonna use the data for, you getmore engagement. You get more
answers.
So, yes, definitely. When youhave these surveys, tell
candidates. Yeah. 1, tell themabout it before they get slapped
(36:32):
with it randomly, and tell themwhat you're going to do with
that information. Yes.
That's one part of thing. Theother part that I like is having
data is how you can make changesas a TA person with an
executive. Right? Because theycan't argue with data. They
literally can't.
Tameka Allen (36:52):
And that's what happened in this situation that
catapulted to a completerevamping of hiring processes
and un undoing this thought oflooking for reasons not to hire
people.
Rhona Pierce (37:07):
That's such an old school approach to hiring that I
fought because I don't come fromthe traditional TA. I didn't
grow up in the TA world. I was asoftware engineer Mhmm. Who
moved to TA. I've always lookedat things differently, and I'm
like, what do you mean we'retrying to find reasons why not
to hire them?
(37:28):
No. I'm trying to figure out whyI should hire them. That's my
approach when I go into aninterview.
Tameka Allen (37:34):
Wow. I love that.
Rhona Pierce (37:36):
I don't know. For to me, sometimes it's hard to
understand how people think in acertain way because it's just
like, I don't see it that way.But I mean, it it is what it is.
It's out there. And that's whyhaving data and having, like,
this communication withcandidates is really how you can
make change to people who thinkdifferently than you, and
(37:58):
they're not seeing it.
They're not I have thisfundamental belief that most
executives and most hiringmanagers and people outside of
TA, they are not saying any ofthese things on purpose. They're
not out to, like Mhmm. They'renot evil people. They're not
it's just literally what they'velearned along the way because no
(38:20):
one teaches you how to hire.It's what they've learned along
the way and what they'vebelieved.
Tameka Allen (38:25):
Yeah. And to add to that, I thought about, I
really I agree with you. I do.Because most leaders that I
engage, when we have theseconversations and they have
these moments, one of the firstthings they say is, I didn't
know. Right?
And I can honestly say, unlessyou're in that world purposely,
it can be really easy tooverlook these things and
(38:46):
assume. But I think this is theimportance of surrounding
yourself with people who lookand think differently than you,
that you can understand theirexperiences. I can remember when
my my daughter was diagnosed andone of my best friends, she
presented, very hyperactive.Right? And I remember one of my
best friends, she was like,whew.
(39:06):
She is doing a lot. Right? And,it was maybe a year or so later,
her son was diagnosed as well.And she just looked at me, and
she said, I'm so sorry. And Isaid, you didn't know.
Right? So I say all that to say,for the most part, people when
they know better, they dobetter. But just and when we
(39:27):
think about from the businessperspective, why this can be
embracing this talent can be sovaluable is because I've seen it
time and time again. Andstatistically, when we're in
spaces that allow us to work inthe ways in which our brain
works, we're like 30 or 40% moreproductive than our neurotypical
counterparts. Right?
Because we're allowed to workand flow in a way that works for
(39:50):
us that still gets the bestoutcome. Right? So just
embracing that mindset. This iswhat creates innovation in
companies that make seriousmoney. Right?
I've seen it year over yearprofits well over 100%,
retaining teams, retainingcustomers, closing deals. Like,
(40:12):
I'm just seeing it so many timesthat I just hope we continue to
tap into this this demographic.
Rhona Pierce (40:18):
I love that you've mentioned all of those, like,
ripple effect, things thathappen from neuroinclusive
hiring practices because at theend of the day, that's the
information that you can takeback to leaders. That's what
they wanna know because it'slike, cool. Why am I doing this
if what I've been doing so farhas been working for me? Well,
has it? Because if we do this,then we get higher productivity,
(40:44):
innovation, all the things thatyou've mentioned.
Any other ripple effect type ofthings that that happen as a
result of neuroinclusive hiring?
Tameka Allen (40:52):
Yeah. So long term post onboarding, I've seen it
improve employee engagement aswell as retention. Because
here's the thing I'm not surethat people understand and
realize around those of us whoidentify with a disability. For
those of us who choose tocontinue our career internally,
the last thing we want to bedoing is going through another
(41:14):
interview process. Like, realtalk.
Like, we're more motivated tokeep the job, right, as long as
we're able to work in a way thatworks along with our brain, that
still benefits everyone.
Rhona Pierce (41:27):
Yes. And I could I mean, I don't have evidence for
this. I know for myself, that'strue for most people as well.
Interviewing and the job market,it's it sucks. Mhmm.
Unfortunately, it sucks. So whenyou treat people the right way,
(41:48):
beginning to end, they're goingto stay because who wants to go
back out there? I I mean, I knowI don't wanna go back out there
once you're in a company. You'vegone through all of this. So
imagine, like, not having tomask, not having to explain all
of this all over again.
(42:09):
Come on. Retention. Of course,retention is a great side effect
or ripple effect of this.
Tameka Allen (42:15):
It's good for business.
Rhona Pierce (42:17):
Yes. Yes. It is. So for listeners who are just,
like, starting to think aboutneurodiversity in their hiring
processes, what's like a smallbut impactful change they could
implement right away?
Tameka Allen (42:30):
I would say a small but effective change they
could make right away is if youare using Zoom, Microsoft Teams,
or another platform for yourinterview process, just turn the
captions on. Turn them on. Andthen the other thing I would say
is for those who have some sortof in person interviews, provide
(42:51):
those interview questions andthings, but provide a visual
around your conversation. Iremember, just talking about
many of our conditions areimpact our working memory.
Right?
And I remember, having to have aconversation with the hiring
manager because they wanted todisqualify a candidate because
they couldn't memorize thecompany values. Come on. We I
(43:17):
was we end up having adiscussion of why why is this in
here? They can find that on thewebsite. But helping them
understand that there areidentities of protected class
where it could impact theirworking memory.
And for you to provide this tothem verbally and then having
them recite that back to you isan equitable process and could
(43:38):
inadvertently reject candidateswho identify with a disability
out of the process.
Rhona Pierce (43:43):
I have so many questions. Why are you even
asking that in an interview?It's like, you know, the worst
feeling a candidate can have issitting there. And I know
because I've had it is sittingthere and thinking, why are you
asking me this question?
Tameka Allen (43:57):
Mhmm. Why? Which is why it's important to audit
those interview processes andreally ask those questions. Why
are we asking this? What doesthis have to do with qualifying
the candidate aligning with theessential function of the job?
Please share that with me.
Rhona Pierce (44:13):
Yes. That's such a great question. I hope
everyone's taking note of itbecause it's like, yes. There
are nicer ways of that. Why areyou asking this question?
How is this helping us figureout that this person is going to
be successful in this role, inthis company, on this team?
Tameka Allen (44:32):
Mhmm.
Rhona Pierce (44:33):
So this has been an amazing conversation. I'm so
glad we got to chat more afteryour your talk at breakfast. I
really wanted to dig in more andbe able to share with the
listeners of this podcast. Howcan listeners connect with you?
Tameka Allen (44:51):
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Veronika, for
having me. It was so great tomeet you in person. We're in
Nashville, so I enjoyed our timetogether then and now. Listeners
can connect with me on LinkedInat Tameka N Allen on LinkedIn.
They can also check me out on mywebsite for my company, my
culture at, modculture.co.
Rhona Pierce (45:14):
Amazing. And I'm going to include all of those
links in the show notes, andI'll also include and I haven't
asked you about this, but I knowthat guide that you included
after your breakfastconversation was amazing, and I
would love to share it withlisteners. So I'll get a link
from you so that we can includethat also in the show notes.
(45:37):
Trust me. That guide is it'sgreat.
Tameka Allen (45:41):
Excellent. Absolutely. Let's do it.
Perfect.
Rhona Pierce (45:44):
If you want more actionable advice, like the
advice shared in this episode, Iwrite a weekly newsletter for TA
professionals who want to take amore strategic approach to
recruiting. You can sign up atthrowouttheplaybook.com/newsletter.
That'sthrowouttheplaybook.com/newsletter.
(46:05):
The link is in the show notes.
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