April 23, 2024 • 42 mins
Are you among the many who believe sacrificing sleep might be the key to increased productivity? Let me, Mikita, alongside sleep expert Dr. Catherine Darley, unravel this misconception for you. In a culture where burning the midnight oil is often celebrated, we expose the truth behind the sleep-productivity myth and advocate for the counterintuitive approach that more sleep can mean better performance. We share personal experiences and the societal pressures that skew our perception of rest, making a compelling case for why your early bedtime might just be your secret weapon for success.
Dr. Darley and I delve into the revelatory impact that proper sleep can have on every facet of your life. With two decades of experience in sleep medicine, Dr. Darley provides invaluable insights into the transformative power of a good night's sleep on our relationships, emotional intelligence, and work output. We dissect the potential hazards of becoming too fixated on sleep metrics from wearable technology and discuss how a balanced view on sleep can prevent us from getting trapped in an unproductive cycle of sleep obsession and poor rest.
As we wrap up our conversation, we highlight the critical role sleep plays in self-care, emphasizing the necessity of consistent sleep patterns to harness the full spectrum of its benefits. Discover how aligning your sleep routine with your natural circadian rhythm can unlock a world of creativity, mental clarity, and patience. We debunk common sleep myths and stress the importance of waking up at the same time every day. Let this discussion guide you towards nurturing a healthier relationship with sleep and adopting the self-compassion necessary for a balanced and fulfilling life.
#selfdevelopment #Wellness
#thym4teawithmikita #manifest #purposefulliving #liveunapplogectically #freedom #podcast #womeninpodcast #podcastlife #empoweringwomen
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The idea that the longer you're on the job, the
more you'll get done is reallynot true, and people are taking
from their sleep to add on totheir day, thinking they're
going to get more done.
And you're just not going toget more done, and I think many
people are making this decisionof I'm going to have a longer
(00:21):
day, but my performance is goingto be worse, and my performance
is going to be worse and mymood is going to be worse and my
regulation is going to be worseversus a shorter day when
you're at the top of your game.
I have this worksheet calledthe optimal sleep plan and I
like people to do it for 10 days.
Try 10 days of really gettingall of the sleep that you do
(00:43):
best with and see what yourexperience is.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hey there, I'm Makita , a small town girl with dreams
who started a podcast with anold headset and a laptop at my
kitchen table and made my dreamscome true.
On my podcast, time for Teawith Makita, we chat about
living life unapologetically, onyour terms, from career advice,
entrepreneurship, relationshipsand everything in between.
(01:09):
This is your one-stop shop forreal conversations and
inspiration.
If you're looking forconnection, then you've found it
here.
Join me every Tuesday as wedive into those sometimes hard
to have conversations.
Tuesday, as we dive into thosesometimes hard to have
conversations.
So, grab your cup of tea orcoffee and get comfy, because
this is time for Tea with Makita, and the tea is definitely hot.
(01:31):
Ever feel like you need asuperpower boost of motivation
with exclusive tips and toolswith your goals in mind?
Well, say hello to your newinspiration hotspot the Tuesday
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(01:52):
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Sign up for the Tuesday TeaNewsletter today at
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level.
Welcome back.
It's definitely time for sometea.
I'm Makita.
I want to thank you for sharingyour time, space and energy
with me today.
Today, I am excited to have DrCatherine Darley with us.
(02:15):
She is an expert in sleepskills as well as advocating for
the profound impact of qualitysleep on our daily lives, which
is something I'm sure we allneed.
Dr Dolly is challenging themyth that less sleep equals more
productivity and in today'sworld, we are letting go of less
is more and moving into themore is better when it comes to
(02:35):
sleep.
I know I definitely am movinginto that direction.
One quote that comes to mindwhen I think of this topic is by
Arianna Huffington.
She says the way to a moreproductivity, more inspired,
more joyful life is gettingenough sleep, and I don't know
about you, but I definitely amletting go of that less is more
(03:02):
and really trying to come intomore quality sleep is definitely
much better.
So, with that being said,welcome, my friend.
I am so happy to have you herewith me today.
So how are you?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Thank you.
I'm so glad to be here as we'rerecording this.
It is the holiday season, andso I went to a party on Saturday
night and fell asleep probablytwo hours later than I typically
do.
And here I am with a littlecaffeinated tea instead of
herbal tea this morning.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Well, my daughter had a home.
What was it?
A housewarming brunch partythat we were a little late
getting to, so for us it startedlike at like almost.
It was supposed to start atlike one.
We got there almost at two, sowe stayed a lot later, and then
(03:58):
later on today we also haveanother engagement to go to, so
I will definitely be drinkingmore caffeinated tea as well.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, the small ways that poor sleep adds up and
influences your life.
Everything from a little extracaffeine which in some ways
caffeine can be helpful, butit's also not a good strategy
long-term right and the rippleeffects of even one poor night
(04:33):
of sleep can really shape yourlife and your experience.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Definitely, and I've had this love and hate
relationship with sleep for avery long time.
One, because I get reallyobsessed with the amount of
sleep I want to have.
And then the second thing is Idon't like the fact that all of
my siblings, even my mom, thinkthat I'm in the bed every night
at 8.30 or 9 pm.
So they're always like, oh, wedon't really invite you or we
(05:01):
didn't call you because we knowyou were probably asleep and I'm
like, is it that bad?
Like I don't go to bed thatearly, but you know, it's just
over the past two years Iactually stay up a lot later,
which actually makes me wonder,like, how did you get started in
your career path into sleep?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Well, thanks for asking that.
I've been interested in sleepreally since college and you
know I feel like each person ishere for a purpose.
Sometimes it's hard to figureout what that purpose is.
For me, I think doing sleepmedicine is why I'm here on this
earth now.
(05:43):
And so my interest in sleep incollege resulted in working for
a research lab doing researchlooking at children's sleep as
they go through puberty.
And then when I was there, I wasthinking well, I want to be a
professional, a doctor orresearcher, what's going to be
(06:04):
the right fit?
And I had this epiphany one day.
It was really one of thoselight bulb moments and I could
tell you the whole story aboutit.
But the epiphany I had is that,since sleep is so fundamental
for each one of us it is anessential part of our physiology
that we cannot get away fromthat it didn't make sense to
treat it with a bunch of us.
It is an essential part of ourphysiology that we cannot get
(06:25):
away from that.
It didn't make sense to treatit with a bunch of pills.
And so I went to school to be anaturopathic physician, which is
a four-year medical schoolprogram and focused on sleep,
and I knew as I was goingthrough the program, I am going
to be doing naturopathic sleepmedicine and since then I've had
(06:47):
my own clinic in the Seattlearea for 20 years and now I'm
really working to talk morepublicly about sleep because I
want to have a another 12 or 15years and when you're working
with people one-on-one it can bereally profound, but it's still
(07:10):
one-on-one, and so I'm tryingto talk more broadly and I'm so
glad to have this opportunity onTime for Tea, because you know
you can't make a huge impact ifyou're only one by one, by one.
You need to like talk about itand insert sleep into the health
conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, it's like the one that pebble and seeing that
ripple effect.
When you, you know, can reachmore people at once, the impact
is felt stronger and more peoplecan talk about it.
So I definitely this is a greatopportunity for people to learn
more.
But I'm just interested becauseyou were talking about going
through medical school and thenreally getting you know into
(07:50):
sleep.
Did you start to like reallyfocus on looking at the amount
of sleep you were getting whileyou were going through medical
school?
Was that ever like somethingyou had to like rearrange to
make sure like you were actuallygetting the adequate amount?
Speaker 1 (08:07):
You know, actually I, um, I know sometimes those
stories of overcoming hardshipare so compelling.
I wouldn't say that I haveovercome hardship in terms of
I've always been a good sleeperand really valued my sleep, and,
and so I wouldn't say that Ihave gone through a period of
being severely sleep deprived orhaving insomnia or whatnot.
(08:31):
But because I do get the amountof sleep that I do best with,
almost every night I reallynoticed the difference.
And there's actually researchstudies that show that if you
take someone who's well-restedthe first night, the second
night of being sleep deprived,they say I'm feeling the effects
(08:52):
, my performance is not so good,I'm not feeling as well, et
cetera.
But then after that third nightof sleep deprivation, people
say oh, you know what, I thinkI'm doing.
Okay, I think I got used togetting less sleep.
You measure their performance.
It's still on the downwardslide, but they somehow have
(09:14):
adjusted their baseline to thisnew normal.
And because I get enough sleepevery night, I really do feel it
.
On those nights, like lastnight, you know, got six hours
of sleep instead of my typicaleight, and I can tell.
But it's, you know, sadly it'sabout 35% of people who aren't
getting adequate sleep night bynight, and they're probably not
(09:38):
aware of what they're missingout on in terms of performance,
relationships, emotionalregulation, all of that that
sleep does for us.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
That is true, and, like you, I've never really had
an issue with sleep.
I've always been an early riser, so in turn I would go to sleep
earlier, as even as a kid, butI don't know, I think it was
like middle school I readsomething about you should get
eight hours of sleep, and afterthat I started really like, oh,
(10:12):
I need this amount of sleep.
So really focusing on makingsure I get the right amount of
sleep.
And then when I got into my 20sI'm not going to lie I got a
little over obsessed, becausethen I started like counting the
hours If I go to bed at thistime and I get up at this time,
will I get my eight hours?
And then it became like thiswhole thing where I was just
like really taking it, you know,out of proportion.
(10:34):
Yeah, it got a little littleoverboard and I had to kind of
bring myself back.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Yeah, I think we can see thatwith the wearable technology you
know all these wearables thatpeople have on their wrists or
mattress pads or whatnot,monitoring sleep.
Sometimes that feeds intopeople being I call it
hypervigilant about their sleep.
Just like every health behavior.
(11:03):
It's good to just kind of takeit in stride, have it be part of
your routine.
But you know, am I upset aboutmissing two hours of sleep for
this party last night?
You know I'm not.
I'm like, oh, it was a funparty and I'll sleep well
tonight and I'll be just 100%tomorrow.
That's a better attitude thanbeing hypervigilant about it.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah, and you know it's funny because I've had my
Fitbit for like a very long timebut I just started, within the
last year actually, every nowand again, looking at it to see
like my so-called grade on sleep.
And it's always good.
And at one point I was like howcan I get it to be great Like?
Can it ever be great?
(11:50):
You know, but you know it, it itactually is measuring like
where I'm at in my rest period.
So I'm like I mean, I don'tknow, I feel good and that's the
biggest thing.
I'm like measuring that or justlistening to my body and saying
you woke up this morning, youfeel really good.
And I know, you know, for a lotof us it is different,
(12:10):
especially for as a busyprofessional, as a mom, you know
we are always busy.
So can you share like howimproved sleep has like can
really impact people lives,because we talked a little bit
about that better performance.
You know people sometimesthinking that working off of
(12:32):
less sleep, they're getting moredone because they're up, but
not really Like there are a lotof challenges that go into that.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, I'm glad that you asked that, makita, because
that go into that.
Yeah, I'm glad that you askedthat, makita, because you know
people do talk about how muchsleep they need, right, whether
they say they need six or sevenor eight or nine.
They talk about that number.
But the other number, the otherhalf of the equation that
doesn't come up is if I needeight hours of sleep, then how
(13:03):
long is my day?
I've got 16 hours, right, andso if you're trying to do 18
hours of stuff, you're not goingto have time for that six, that
eight hours of sleep that youdo best with.
So it's both how much sleep youdo best with allows you X
amount of hours in your day, andyou know I think people try to
(13:25):
take on too much.
Basically, I mean you have yourday length of, you know, 16
hours.
If you need eight hours of sleep, minus commute time, personal
hygiene, household tasks, rest,you know, wind down time, I try
to always have at least threehours of leisure, which means
(13:49):
it's not and, honestly,sometimes it's a struggle to get
more than two.
But that means I am notresponsible for anything, I am
not parenting, I am not likeactive parenting.
I might be hanging out with myloved ones, which is a joy, but
I'm not actively parenting them,homework or anything of that
(14:10):
nature.
I'm not cooking, I'm notthinking of my to-do list, you
know nothing, it's just likehobbies TV, sit on the porch,
you know really actually resttime and you know by the time
you have all of those othertasks or other chunks of time
(14:31):
out of the 16 hours you onlyhave a limited amount to
actually be on task, and so thatlimits how many tasks you can
take.
And I think about it in fivedomains that you've got your
physical performance, likedriving safety, and for those of
us who do physical work, youknow that's going to increase
your risk of injury if you'renot getting adequate sleep.
(14:54):
So it's physical performance,cognitive performance, you know
being mentally snappy, andthat's everything from my
remembering your name becausewe've newly met, to simple
memory tasks to really complexproblem solving, taking the
world of sleep medicine andgiving a three minute answer
right.
(15:14):
And then physical healthdiabetes, obesity, weight
control, hypertension, obesity,weight control, hypertension all
of those health concerns areimpacted by sleep.
And then mental health, anxiety, depression.
You know, after in the pandemicand after the pandemic we've
had a lot more discussion, and Ithink it's really healthy a lot
(15:38):
more discussion about mentalhealth in our culture.
And then there's also emotionalintelligence.
Are you able to relate well toothers?
Are you able to understand yourown emotional state?
Are you lonely?
All of those things are goingto be impacted by how much sleep
we get, and if we have healthysleep.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
And it really shows I can definitely not just with me
when you talk about emotionalintelligence and understanding
other people, even with my kids,who are adult teenagers now,
but I can tell, when they havenot gotten enough sleep, just
(16:20):
how emotional they are aboutdifferent situations or things
that come up or that happen, andnormally they would not react
this way.
But just being aware and havingthat emotional intelligence
piece and recognizing andunderstanding hey, how did you
sleep last night?
How have you been sleeping?
What's been up, what's beengoing on in your life, having
(16:43):
the conversation around sleepand I think we don't talk about
sleep as part of our mentalhealth and our regular things
that keep us regulated enough-yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
And the impact of sleep can be really profound
pretty quickly, like if you'repartially sleep deprived for one
night and you're prone to panicattacks, you're much more
likely to had a panic attackever.
They are not fun, they are.
That's a hard thing to gothrough, you know.
(17:27):
And and there's just so manyexamples I could give of
different you know anxiety,depression, ptsd.
You know, for our veterans, ourlaw enforcement, et cetera,
people who have PTSD, sleep isdisrupted, but sleep is also
protective for them to minimizesome of the symptoms of PTSD.
(17:50):
So, yeah, and then there's alsoloneliness In the pandemic that
became much morewell-acknowledged.
And if you're not sleeping well, you're going to feel more
lonely, and if you're lonelyyou're not going to sleep as
well.
So it gets into this negativefeedback circle actually.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, and also our work schedules.
You know, everyone worksdifferent hours of the day and
I've noticed just from thepeople that I talk to, I've
heard more people talk aboutusing melatonin more than I've
(18:33):
ever heard people talk aboutusing different things to help
them sleep.
I will say one thing that Ilove to do that if I am having a
bad like I'm feeling reallyanxious or I just can't go to
sleep, I have a weighted blanket.
(18:54):
I love it.
It's one of the most commonthings that I like to use.
That like gives me this feelingof calm.
I don't know what it is aboutit, but I know they say like the
pressure and you know it hitsthe pressure points for the
weight, but it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yes, yes, I hear that a lot.
And um, there the data, theresearch data.
I looked at this a couple yearsago, maybe two years ago.
The research data on theweighted blankets is stronger
and there's more of it for thatfeeling of calm than there is
for sleep.
But yes, we need to feel calmin order to sleep, so the
(19:38):
connection makes sense asleep.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
So the connection makes sense and I feel like I
don't know.
I think we all have some typeof routine, whether we recognize
our routines or not, but I doknow that when I am watching,
like at night, I love to, and myhusband loved to watch X-Files.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
But reruns.
But I know at the same time Icannot watch that right before I
go to bed because it's like alot of suspense and drama and my
heart rate's elevated and I'mreally into it and it takes a
long period for me to come downoff of this rollercoaster of
emotions.
The emotions are just likeriding these waves.
(20:20):
So I will watch an episode butthen, like the TV has to come
down, like everything has tokind of zone out and kind of
relax to help bring everythingdown, because I can't have that
stimulation and then immediatelyclose my eyes and go to sleep.
And I don't think sometimes werecognize that some of our
(20:43):
patterns of watching shows orstrolling through social media
and things like that can affecthow we go to sleep.
And then you know, like peopleare like well, I have a hard
time going to sleep and theynever look at some of the things
that they're doing in theirroutine that actually don't get
them ready to close down, to goto sleep.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Right, I think about it like a car on a freeway.
Right, you're going 70 milesper hour and there's the off
ramp, the like sleep zone overthere.
Is it going to be better, ifyou like slowly, you know slow
down and so you're ready.
Or do you like slam on thebrakes?
(21:25):
Slamming on the brakes is notan effective way to go from 70
to zero and think about the winddown time as part of that One
strategy.
Well, there's a couple of thingsthat came to mind when you were
talking about this.
One thing that I think manypeople have heard is that you're
not supposed to get screens inthat time before bed because the
(21:49):
blue light suppresses yourmelatonin.
I think many people have heardthat, but they don't necessarily
believe it or understand howbig of an impact it can have
this melatonin.
When we're talking aboutmelatonin, it's good to be clear
about your endogenous melatonin, what is produced in your body,
(22:09):
and then melatonin supplementsand thinking about that
endogenous melatonin in anatural light environment like
camping or something before theelectric light, our melatonin
would start to rise a little bitbefore we got into bed.
So it would help us feel sleepyand just think about how
(22:31):
different, like candlelight,firelight, darkness, starlight
is in the natural world whenyou're camping or out in nature,
versus your home, right, yourhome is just such a different
light environment and it reallymakes a difference Basically, if
you can hold your hand out atarm's length and see your
(22:53):
fingers wiggling, that's enoughlight to suppress your melatonin
somewhat, which is way.
Our system is just way moresensitive than people
necessarily know.
So one strategy people can useif they're on the screen is to
use blue blocking glasses.
They have red lenses like thisand they make everything like
(23:15):
sunset colors.
That can be a great tip.
And the other tip I'd like togive is on your phone, if you
have a smartphone, you candownload what's called a lux
meter, l-u-x meter, and itmeasures light intensity.
Basically, the recommendationis that for three hours before
(23:37):
bed you have 10 lux or less.
Bed you have 10 lux or less,which one lux is equal to one
candle flame, so 10 lux is only10 candle flames.
It's not very realistic, Ithink, for many people.
You know you're still goingstrong three hours before bed,
but just to have that awarenesstwo hours, even one hour before
(23:59):
bed of 10 lux is going to bebetter maybe than what you have
now, and the blue blockingglasses can really help with
that actually.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I love those tips.
Um, I never realized, like howthat really affected like the
melatonin and like just you knowcause we don't really think
about it.
You know you're in the house,you got the lights on and, like
you said, if you do go camping,like you do, like it's, it's
such a relaxing.
(24:29):
The lights are different.
I can even remember growing upas kids like even like if we
watched a family movie orsomething my mom would always
turn the lights out.
Like you would turn the lightsout and you would kind of relax,
and she would always make likethis little pallet in the floor
and we would all lay there and,before you know it, someone's
patting you and saying, hey, goto bed.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Right, I love that.
Yeah, what we do in our home,uh, I don't think I can change,
turn the camera to show you, butI have um little twinkle lights
around the ceiling and Ipurposely got ones that are a
yellow, a very gentle,naturalistic yellowish hue, not
like a bright daffodil yellow,but more of a gentle candle
(25:14):
flame yellow, and I turn thoseon two hours before bed.
I turn off all of the otherlights and have just those
lights, which I have measuredwith my Lux meter app on the
phone and it gives just 10 Luxof light, and so we hang out in
that kind of lighting in theevenings and that, I think,
(25:37):
helps everyone be ready forsleep.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I think helps everyone be ready for sleep.
That is really good.
I like that, and I know we'vetalked a little bit about how
sleep, or lack of it, can affectour emotional regulation and
decision-making.
In your experience, how hashave you seen it show up in both
personal and professionalsettings?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Yeah.
So I am a parent, as you cansee, and I, you know I totally
resonate with what you weresaying about.
You know you can kind of tellor suspect what your kids' sleep
patterns have been when they'redealing with a challenge.
So I've certainly seen that andeven for myself I know, like
(26:23):
you know, last night I only gotsix hours.
I do best with eight.
And so I'm just going to be alittle bit more gentle on myself
, knowing that I don't have allthe tools in my toolkit today.
And how that's going to shapeup for me is that I'm just going
to have a little bit gentlerpace and I'm going to focus on
(26:44):
making sure I've got some ofthose other fundamentals
strongly in place.
Like I'm going to have reallyhealthy meals today.
There will not be no eating out.
I'm going to make sure I'mhydrated, I'm going to make sure
that I'm going outside andtaking stretch breaks and
getting natural light breaksduring the day and just overall
(27:06):
a little bit more gently becauseI don't have the sleep aspect
in my toolkit to be able to dealwell with my day.
And then I want to share astory with you.
Professionally, I work withindividuals from infants on up
in my practice and a woman camein, very high performing woman
(27:28):
works for a tech company inSeattle and then she also had
part of her team was in Englandand she came in because she was
having, so she'd have to travelto England every quarter or
something and meet with them fora week and she was having
fights with her team in Englandand it turned out it was jet lag
(27:52):
and once we were able to gether on a plan to minimize the
jet lag, it was all fine andwhat was happening is she'd be
there for a week, have this youknow negative interactions, and
then she'd come back to Seattleand she'd have, you know, two
and a half months of kind ofhaving to repair with the
(28:13):
English team and she would.
But then, you know, the nexttrip, all the progress that
they've made in like healingtheir relationship, would be
down the drain.
And and that really made a bigdifference for her was just to
be able to get the sleep, evenwith the travel.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Wow, you know what?
And I don't think you know, wethink about that, but I am.
When I don't get enough sleep,I'm a whiny baby.
I am, I'm very, but I'm a whinybaby I am.
And the fact that you'rereminded to give yourself grace
and compassion and to stayhydrated and to not eat out,
because that's the thing You'resleep-deprived, you don't feel
(28:54):
like cooking, you grab thenearest thing.
That makes you feel worse.
You lash out at other peoplebecause your ability to process
information and to control youremotions are not the same.
It looks and feels totallydifferent.
What you could normally take on, you can't.
And just having the awarenessto wake up and say, oh my gosh,
(29:18):
I didn't get the sleep I wasgoing to get.
Today is a day for compassionand recognizing that sometimes I
don't think I give myself thegrace I need and jet lag is real
.
It is so, so real.
So I love that you were able tohelp her get to a point where
(29:40):
she could find a routine.
That would help, because, youknow, having those relationships
are so important and we alwayswant to show up being the best
version of ourselves at alltimes.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Absolutely, and so I don't know if you've heard or if
your community has heard.
It's kind of a new concept insleep.
We have this concept calledsocial jet lag, and social jet
lag is when you have oneschedule on your five work days
(30:12):
and then on your days off yousleep later, go to bed later,
sleep in.
That's called social jet lagand it can cause some of those
problems.
There's a lot of researchrecently just showing that we
need regularity in our sleeppatterns.
So the recommendations whichthis might seem surprising to
(30:34):
people is that your bedtime andwake time not vary more than 30
minutes across all seven days ofthe week.
So you know, on work nights ifyou're going to bed at 10, that
means on weekends you're notgoing to bed any later than 1030
.
Weekdays you're waking up at730.
You got to get up by eight onthe weekends and not sleep in
(30:56):
too late if you really want toboost your sleep and the same
thing for sleep duration, thatyou're not sleeping more than 60
minutes longer on the weekendsthan the work days and if you
are sleeping more than that,then it would be considered
social jet lag which is going tobe some of those problems.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Oh wow, I can see that.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, yeah, I'm messing up your circadian rhythm
.
Oh sorry, makita, go ahead.
No, no, go ahead.
Well, it gets down to yourcircadian rhythm that when you
shift your, you can't shift yourbody clock back and forth
easily, even work day to weekend, just like you can't shift it
(31:40):
from Seattle to England veryeasily you know that, that I
definitely believe that because,uh and I think that's now that
you mentioned I'm like I thinkthat's what's been going on with
me for the last year.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I mentioned that like , well, today I'm going to get
up at five, 30 and like thisweek, no, I think I want to
sleep in at seven, and it neverworks.
I'm always like, oh, this justit's not working.
I don't know which one, I'mstill not getting up when I want
to to do the things that I wantto do, and I'm all over the
place.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
So yeah, yeah, I think that you know, if that was
one of the if I could givethree recommendations that would
be.
One of them is to just reallylike figure out, okay, what
sleep hours are going to workfor me on a routine basis.
(32:37):
You know, I think that there inthe past was really kind of a
cachet or like a cool factor oflike sleeping when you're tired,
eating when you're hungry,working when you feel inspired.
But our bodies just don't workthat way.
Like our bodies like regularitymeals at the same time, bedtime
(32:58):
at the same time, getting up atthe same time and I'm I'm
hoping that that's going tobecome cool is having like a
super regular schedule.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
It makes you feel good.
Though I'm not going to lieLike um, as I'm working towards
letting go of the less is betterwith sleep and going towards.
You know, more sleep is better,especially for me.
I do feel better and one of thethings I used to do in the
mornings is I would get up earlyat five and it worked, and I
(33:32):
would work out.
Me and my husband would go forwalks, we'd come back, we'd have
talks, we'd drink coffee and,within the pandemic, all of that
changed Our whole lives,changed how we did, things
changed.
We had this now new normal thatwe are trying to get out of, to
re-sync our lives back into thethings that worked best for us
(33:55):
and made us feel good and havemore mental clarity.
Because I feel like the bettersleep I get, the more creative I
am, the more mental clarity,the more patience I have and I
just feel good all over.
I just feel good like all over,just feel better.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah, totally.
There's this growing awarenessabout our circadian system and
how it impacts every area of ourhealth and I think about us
being really embedded in theearth.
Right, human beings live on theearth and the earth is rhythmic
(34:34):
in terms of light and darkness,temperature.
You know seasonal weather,length changes over the year,
but over this week it's onlygoing to vary by maybe 10
(34:55):
minutes or 20 minutes.
I mean, it's winter, so we'reclose to the solstice, but that
is not very much variability inthe natural light-dark cycle,
whereas with my light switch ormy thermostat I can have crazy
variability and our bodies arejust.
(35:15):
Our physiology is designed forthat really predictably rhythmic
world and as much as we canconnect with that and go back to
that and implement those kindsof patterns in our home
environment, the better ourhealth will be, both sleep and
other health.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
I agree.
I'm curious, though what aresome of the like most common
sleep myths that might bemisleading, that you may have
heard or people say to you orthey think is like normal, but
they're mostly justmisconceptions.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Well, one of them is that bedtime, having a regular
bedtime, is more important thanawake time.
It's actually your wake timereally sets both your sleep
drive and your circadian system.
So focusing on regularity ofyour wake time is much more
(36:13):
important.
There's that.
The other thing is the myth ofthe longer you're awake, the
more you'll get done.
Basically, the work literature,workplace performance and
productivity literature showsthat after eight hours our
performance tanks.
(36:33):
It really tanks, like in theninth hour of work.
People get done something like15% of what they got done in
their first hour of work.
So just you know, let that go.
The idea that the longer you'reon the job, the more you'll get
done is really not true andpeople are taking from their
(36:55):
sleep to add on to their day,thinking they're going to get
more done and you're just notgoing to get more done.
And I think many people aremaking this decision of I'm
going to have a longer day, butmy performance is going to be
worse and my mood is going to beworse and my regulation is
going to be worse, versus ashorter day when you're at the
(37:16):
top of your game.
And that's the choice I wouldencourage people to make, or try
, and I have this worksheetcalled the Optimal Sleep Plan
and I like people to do it for10 days.
I think you know if everybody,as part of their routine in 2024
, could try 10 days of reallygetting all of the sleep that
(37:41):
you do best with and see whatyour experience is, and then you
have the information to make agood decision for you.
You know, if getting more sleepdoesn't translate into a better
life, then go for it.
Have longer days and shortersleep, but I think for most
(38:01):
people, really optimizing theamount of sleep is going to make
them go.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Wow, I didn't know I could feel this good wow, I
didn't know I could feel thisgood, Definitely Well.
I know you've given me a lot tothink about, a lot of useful
tips, a lot of practical advicethat anyone can actually start
implementing with ease.
Today they can actually juststart implementing the small
(38:27):
things into their life to getbetter sleep.
But before we wrap things up,what is one way you are
redefining self-care in your ownlife?
Speaker 1 (38:42):
For me, it's really about claiming that I am going
to have rest time and recreationtime every day, that sometimes
there's more of a tone of graceand sometimes there's more of a
tone of enough.
(39:03):
Already, I just worked hardfrom 6 am to 6 pm and that's
enough, and I'm going to enjoymy time after dinner.
And you know, there's alwaysthings that are not done.
There's always things that arenot done.
I could, you know, I could work24 hours a day and probably
(39:25):
still feel like there's thingsthat you know.
Oh, this club or this, you know, read this book or improve X, Y
, Z on my website, you know.
But it's like, you know,claiming that three hours before
bed to really just enjoy lifeand I'm winding down and I'm
(39:46):
ready for sleep, just makes allthe difference and I'm winding
down and I'm ready for sleep,just makes all the difference.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
I agree.
Well, tell people where theycan connect with you, where they
can find out more ways thatthey can start learning more
about why sleep is important,and some tips and tools that you
can help them with.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Sure.
So I have a free download of asleep plan, kind of, make your
own sleep plan which I'd love toshare with people, and
hopefully I can give you thelink.
And then on Instagram I'm atskilled sleeper If you'd like
daily tips and inspiration andinformation to keep you
(40:28):
motivated to improve your sleep.
And then, if people like longerform, I'm on YouTube, also at
Skilled Sleeper, and once a weekI give a 10-minute video on a
sleep topic and I always endwith sleep skills, because I
really want people to, yes, havesome of the information, of the
(40:49):
background information,research and findings and
whatnot, but really, where therubber meets the road is how do
I implement this in my life thisweek and for my family and my
friends?
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Well, thank you for that.
All right, you guys I know youprobably was like oh, I didn't
get it, Don't worry If youdidn't have your pens and paper
out.
All of that information will bein the show notes so you can
get your downloads, so you canconnect.
All right, that is all the teathat we have to spill today, but
before we leave, I just want toleave you with this simple
(41:26):
affirmation I give myselfpermission to rest fully and
peacefully.
Each night as I sleep, I trustmy body to rejuvenate, allowing
me to wake up refreshed andenergized for the day ahead.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
All right.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yes, yes, I love that .
It was so beautiful and thankyou so much for coming on and
sharing with us and just givingus so much information that we
can actually use and make sensethat actually works with our
lives.
I love the fact that everythingwas practical and I could see
(42:06):
myself incorporating it.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Wonderful, thank you, everybody Sleep well.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Thank you.
All right, you guys.
That's all the tea.
But guess what?
You can join me each and everyTuesday for more delicious hot
tea.
Until next time, namaste.
The idea that the longer you're on the job, the
more you'll get done is reallynot true, and people are taking
from their sleep to add on totheir day, thinking they're
going to get more done.
And you're just not going toget more done, and I think many
people are making this decisionof I'm going to have a longer
(00:21):
day, but my performance is goingto be worse, and my performance
is going to be worse and mymood is going to be worse and my
regulation is going to be worseversus a shorter day when
you're at the top of your game.
I have this worksheet calledthe optimal sleep plan and I
like people to do it for 10 days.
Try 10 days of really gettingall of the sleep that you do
(00:43):
best with and see what yourexperience is.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hey there, I'm Makita , a small town girl with dreams
who started a podcast with anold headset and a laptop at my
kitchen table and made my dreamscome true.
On my podcast, time for Teawith Makita, we chat about
living life unapologetically, onyour terms, from career advice,
entrepreneurship, relationshipsand everything in between.
(01:09):
This is your one-stop shop forreal conversations and
inspiration.
If you're looking forconnection, then you've found it
here.
Join me every Tuesday as wedive into those sometimes hard
to have conversations.
Tuesday, as we dive into thosesometimes hard to have
conversations.
So, grab your cup of tea orcoffee and get comfy, because
this is time for Tea with Makita, and the tea is definitely hot.
(01:31):
Ever feel like you need asuperpower boost of motivation
with exclusive tips and toolswith your goals in mind?
Well, say hello to your newinspiration hotspot the Tuesday
Tea Newsletter, your weeklyinfusion of big thinking energy
that will propel you to chaseyour wildest dreams and never
(01:52):
shy away from using the power ofyour voice.
Sign up for the Tuesday TeaNewsletter today at
beautifullyunbalancedcom andelevate your goals to the next
level.
Welcome back.
It's definitely time for sometea.
I'm Makita.
I want to thank you for sharingyour time, space and energy
with me today.
Today, I am excited to have DrCatherine Darley with us.
(02:15):
She is an expert in sleepskills as well as advocating for
the profound impact of qualitysleep on our daily lives, which
is something I'm sure we allneed.
Dr Dolly is challenging themyth that less sleep equals more
productivity and in today'sworld, we are letting go of less
is more and moving into themore is better when it comes to
(02:35):
sleep.
I know I definitely am movinginto that direction.
One quote that comes to mindwhen I think of this topic is by
Arianna Huffington.
She says the way to a moreproductivity, more inspired,
more joyful life is gettingenough sleep, and I don't know
about you, but I definitely amletting go of that less is more
(03:02):
and really trying to come intomore quality sleep is definitely
much better.
So, with that being said,welcome, my friend.
I am so happy to have you herewith me today.
So how are you?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Thank you.
I'm so glad to be here as we'rerecording this.
It is the holiday season, andso I went to a party on Saturday
night and fell asleep probablytwo hours later than I typically
do.
And here I am with a littlecaffeinated tea instead of
herbal tea this morning.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Well, my daughter had a home.
What was it?
A housewarming brunch partythat we were a little late
getting to, so for us it startedlike at like almost.
It was supposed to start atlike one.
We got there almost at two, sowe stayed a lot later, and then
(03:58):
later on today we also haveanother engagement to go to, so
I will definitely be drinkingmore caffeinated tea as well.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, the small ways that poor sleep adds up and
influences your life.
Everything from a little extracaffeine which in some ways
caffeine can be helpful, butit's also not a good strategy
long-term right and the rippleeffects of even one poor night
(04:33):
of sleep can really shape yourlife and your experience.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Definitely, and I've had this love and hate
relationship with sleep for avery long time.
One, because I get reallyobsessed with the amount of
sleep I want to have.
And then the second thing is Idon't like the fact that all of
my siblings, even my mom, thinkthat I'm in the bed every night
at 8.30 or 9 pm.
So they're always like, oh, wedon't really invite you or we
(05:01):
didn't call you because we knowyou were probably asleep and I'm
like, is it that bad?
Like I don't go to bed thatearly, but you know, it's just
over the past two years Iactually stay up a lot later,
which actually makes me wonder,like, how did you get started in
your career path into sleep?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Well, thanks for asking that.
I've been interested in sleepreally since college and you
know I feel like each person ishere for a purpose.
Sometimes it's hard to figureout what that purpose is.
For me, I think doing sleepmedicine is why I'm here on this
earth now.
(05:43):
And so my interest in sleep incollege resulted in working for
a research lab doing researchlooking at children's sleep as
they go through puberty.
And then when I was there, I wasthinking well, I want to be a
professional, a doctor orresearcher, what's going to be
(06:04):
the right fit?
And I had this epiphany one day.
It was really one of thoselight bulb moments and I could
tell you the whole story aboutit.
But the epiphany I had is that,since sleep is so fundamental
for each one of us it is anessential part of our physiology
that we cannot get away fromthat it didn't make sense to
treat it with a bunch of us.
It is an essential part of ourphysiology that we cannot get
(06:25):
away from that.
It didn't make sense to treatit with a bunch of pills.
And so I went to school to be anaturopathic physician, which is
a four-year medical schoolprogram and focused on sleep,
and I knew as I was goingthrough the program, I am going
to be doing naturopathic sleepmedicine and since then I've had
(06:47):
my own clinic in the Seattlearea for 20 years and now I'm
really working to talk morepublicly about sleep because I
want to have a another 12 or 15years and when you're working
with people one-on-one it can bereally profound, but it's still
(07:10):
one-on-one, and so I'm tryingto talk more broadly and I'm so
glad to have this opportunity onTime for Tea, because you know
you can't make a huge impact ifyou're only one by one, by one.
You need to like talk about itand insert sleep into the health
conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, it's like the one that pebble and seeing that
ripple effect.
When you, you know, can reachmore people at once, the impact
is felt stronger and more peoplecan talk about it.
So I definitely this is a greatopportunity for people to learn
more.
But I'm just interested becauseyou were talking about going
through medical school and thenreally getting you know into
(07:50):
sleep.
Did you start to like reallyfocus on looking at the amount
of sleep you were getting whileyou were going through medical
school?
Was that ever like somethingyou had to like rearrange to
make sure like you were actuallygetting the adequate amount?
Speaker 1 (08:07):
You know, actually I, um, I know sometimes those
stories of overcoming hardshipare so compelling.
I wouldn't say that I haveovercome hardship in terms of
I've always been a good sleeperand really valued my sleep, and,
and so I wouldn't say that Ihave gone through a period of
being severely sleep deprived orhaving insomnia or whatnot.
(08:31):
But because I do get the amountof sleep that I do best with,
almost every night I reallynoticed the difference.
And there's actually researchstudies that show that if you
take someone who's well-restedthe first night, the second
night of being sleep deprived,they say I'm feeling the effects
(08:52):
, my performance is not so good,I'm not feeling as well, et
cetera.
But then after that third nightof sleep deprivation, people
say oh, you know what, I thinkI'm doing.
Okay, I think I got used togetting less sleep.
You measure their performance.
It's still on the downwardslide, but they somehow have
(09:14):
adjusted their baseline to thisnew normal.
And because I get enough sleepevery night, I really do feel it
.
On those nights, like lastnight, you know, got six hours
of sleep instead of my typicaleight, and I can tell.
But it's, you know, sadly it'sabout 35% of people who aren't
getting adequate sleep night bynight, and they're probably not
(09:38):
aware of what they're missingout on in terms of performance,
relationships, emotionalregulation, all of that that
sleep does for us.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
That is true, and, like you, I've never really had
an issue with sleep.
I've always been an early riser, so in turn I would go to sleep
earlier, as even as a kid, butI don't know, I think it was
like middle school I readsomething about you should get
eight hours of sleep, and afterthat I started really like, oh,
(10:12):
I need this amount of sleep.
So really focusing on makingsure I get the right amount of
sleep.
And then when I got into my 20sI'm not going to lie I got a
little over obsessed, becausethen I started like counting the
hours If I go to bed at thistime and I get up at this time,
will I get my eight hours?
And then it became like thiswhole thing where I was just
like really taking it, you know,out of proportion.
(10:34):
Yeah, it got a little littleoverboard and I had to kind of
bring myself back.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Yeah, I think we can see thatwith the wearable technology you
know all these wearables thatpeople have on their wrists or
mattress pads or whatnot,monitoring sleep.
Sometimes that feeds intopeople being I call it
hypervigilant about their sleep.
Just like every health behavior.
(11:03):
It's good to just kind of takeit in stride, have it be part of
your routine.
But you know, am I upset aboutmissing two hours of sleep for
this party last night?
You know I'm not.
I'm like, oh, it was a funparty and I'll sleep well
tonight and I'll be just 100%tomorrow.
That's a better attitude thanbeing hypervigilant about it.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah, and you know it's funny because I've had my
Fitbit for like a very long timebut I just started, within the
last year actually, every nowand again, looking at it to see
like my so-called grade on sleep.
And it's always good.
And at one point I was like howcan I get it to be great Like?
Can it ever be great?
(11:50):
You know, but you know it, it itactually is measuring like
where I'm at in my rest period.
So I'm like I mean, I don'tknow, I feel good and that's the
biggest thing.
I'm like measuring that or justlistening to my body and saying
you woke up this morning, youfeel really good.
And I know, you know, for a lotof us it is different,
(12:10):
especially for as a busyprofessional, as a mom, you know
we are always busy.
So can you share like howimproved sleep has like can
really impact people lives,because we talked a little bit
about that better performance.
You know people sometimesthinking that working off of
(12:32):
less sleep, they're getting moredone because they're up, but
not really Like there are a lotof challenges that go into that.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, I'm glad that you asked that, makita, because
that go into that.
Yeah, I'm glad that you askedthat, makita, because you know
people do talk about how muchsleep they need, right, whether
they say they need six or sevenor eight or nine.
They talk about that number.
But the other number, the otherhalf of the equation that
doesn't come up is if I needeight hours of sleep, then how
(13:03):
long is my day?
I've got 16 hours, right, andso if you're trying to do 18
hours of stuff, you're not goingto have time for that six, that
eight hours of sleep that youdo best with.
So it's both how much sleep youdo best with allows you X
amount of hours in your day, andyou know I think people try to
(13:25):
take on too much.
Basically, I mean you have yourday length of, you know, 16
hours.
If you need eight hours of sleep, minus commute time, personal
hygiene, household tasks, rest,you know, wind down time, I try
to always have at least threehours of leisure, which means
(13:49):
it's not and, honestly,sometimes it's a struggle to get
more than two.
But that means I am notresponsible for anything, I am
not parenting, I am not likeactive parenting.
I might be hanging out with myloved ones, which is a joy, but
I'm not actively parenting them,homework or anything of that
(14:10):
nature.
I'm not cooking, I'm notthinking of my to-do list, you
know nothing, it's just likehobbies TV, sit on the porch,
you know really actually resttime and you know by the time
you have all of those othertasks or other chunks of time
(14:31):
out of the 16 hours you onlyhave a limited amount to
actually be on task, and so thatlimits how many tasks you can
take.
And I think about it in fivedomains that you've got your
physical performance, likedriving safety, and for those of
us who do physical work, youknow that's going to increase
your risk of injury if you'renot getting adequate sleep.
(14:54):
So it's physical performance,cognitive performance, you know
being mentally snappy, andthat's everything from my
remembering your name becausewe've newly met, to simple
memory tasks to really complexproblem solving, taking the
world of sleep medicine andgiving a three minute answer
right.
(15:14):
And then physical healthdiabetes, obesity, weight
control, hypertension, obesity,weight control, hypertension all
of those health concerns areimpacted by sleep.
And then mental health, anxiety, depression.
You know, after in the pandemicand after the pandemic we've
had a lot more discussion, and Ithink it's really healthy a lot
(15:38):
more discussion about mentalhealth in our culture.
And then there's also emotionalintelligence.
Are you able to relate well toothers?
Are you able to understand yourown emotional state?
Are you lonely?
All of those things are goingto be impacted by how much sleep
we get, and if we have healthysleep.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
And it really shows I can definitely not just with me
when you talk about emotionalintelligence and understanding
other people, even with my kids,who are adult teenagers now,
but I can tell, when they havenot gotten enough sleep, just
(16:20):
how emotional they are aboutdifferent situations or things
that come up or that happen, andnormally they would not react
this way.
But just being aware and havingthat emotional intelligence
piece and recognizing andunderstanding hey, how did you
sleep last night?
How have you been sleeping?
What's been up, what's beengoing on in your life, having
(16:43):
the conversation around sleepand I think we don't talk about
sleep as part of our mentalhealth and our regular things
that keep us regulated enough-yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
And the impact of sleep can be really profound
pretty quickly, like if you'repartially sleep deprived for one
night and you're prone to panicattacks, you're much more
likely to had a panic attackever.
They are not fun, they are.
That's a hard thing to gothrough, you know.
(17:27):
And and there's just so manyexamples I could give of
different you know anxiety,depression, ptsd.
You know, for our veterans, ourlaw enforcement, et cetera,
people who have PTSD, sleep isdisrupted, but sleep is also
protective for them to minimizesome of the symptoms of PTSD.
(17:50):
So, yeah, and then there's alsoloneliness In the pandemic that
became much morewell-acknowledged.
And if you're not sleeping well, you're going to feel more
lonely, and if you're lonelyyou're not going to sleep as
well.
So it gets into this negativefeedback circle actually.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, and also our work schedules.
You know, everyone worksdifferent hours of the day and
I've noticed just from thepeople that I talk to, I've
heard more people talk aboutusing melatonin more than I've
(18:33):
ever heard people talk aboutusing different things to help
them sleep.
I will say one thing that Ilove to do that if I am having a
bad like I'm feeling reallyanxious or I just can't go to
sleep, I have a weighted blanket.
(18:54):
I love it.
It's one of the most commonthings that I like to use.
That like gives me this feelingof calm.
I don't know what it is aboutit, but I know they say like the
pressure and you know it hitsthe pressure points for the
weight, but it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yes, yes, I hear that a lot.
And um, there the data, theresearch data.
I looked at this a couple yearsago, maybe two years ago.
The research data on theweighted blankets is stronger
and there's more of it for thatfeeling of calm than there is
for sleep.
But yes, we need to feel calmin order to sleep, so the
(19:38):
connection makes sense asleep.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
So the connection makes sense and I feel like I
don't know.
I think we all have some typeof routine, whether we recognize
our routines or not, but I doknow that when I am watching,
like at night, I love to, and myhusband loved to watch X-Files.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
But reruns.
But I know at the same time Icannot watch that right before I
go to bed because it's like alot of suspense and drama and my
heart rate's elevated and I'mreally into it and it takes a
long period for me to come downoff of this rollercoaster of
emotions.
The emotions are just likeriding these waves.
(20:20):
So I will watch an episode butthen, like the TV has to come
down, like everything has tokind of zone out and kind of
relax to help bring everythingdown, because I can't have that
stimulation and then immediatelyclose my eyes and go to sleep.
And I don't think sometimes werecognize that some of our
(20:43):
patterns of watching shows orstrolling through social media
and things like that can affecthow we go to sleep.
And then you know, like peopleare like well, I have a hard
time going to sleep and theynever look at some of the things
that they're doing in theirroutine that actually don't get
them ready to close down, to goto sleep.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Right, I think about it like a car on a freeway.
Right, you're going 70 milesper hour and there's the off
ramp, the like sleep zone overthere.
Is it going to be better, ifyou like slowly, you know slow
down and so you're ready.
Or do you like slam on thebrakes?
(21:25):
Slamming on the brakes is notan effective way to go from 70
to zero and think about the winddown time as part of that One
strategy.
Well, there's a couple of thingsthat came to mind when you were
talking about this.
One thing that I think manypeople have heard is that you're
not supposed to get screens inthat time before bed because the
(21:49):
blue light suppresses yourmelatonin.
I think many people have heardthat, but they don't necessarily
believe it or understand howbig of an impact it can have
this melatonin.
When we're talking aboutmelatonin, it's good to be clear
about your endogenous melatonin, what is produced in your body,
(22:09):
and then melatonin supplementsand thinking about that
endogenous melatonin in anatural light environment like
camping or something before theelectric light, our melatonin
would start to rise a little bitbefore we got into bed.
So it would help us feel sleepyand just think about how
(22:31):
different, like candlelight,firelight, darkness, starlight
is in the natural world whenyou're camping or out in nature,
versus your home, right, yourhome is just such a different
light environment and it reallymakes a difference Basically, if
you can hold your hand out atarm's length and see your
(22:53):
fingers wiggling, that's enoughlight to suppress your melatonin
somewhat, which is way.
Our system is just way moresensitive than people
necessarily know.
So one strategy people can useif they're on the screen is to
use blue blocking glasses.
They have red lenses like thisand they make everything like
(23:15):
sunset colors.
That can be a great tip.
And the other tip I'd like togive is on your phone, if you
have a smartphone, you candownload what's called a lux
meter, l-u-x meter, and itmeasures light intensity.
Basically, the recommendationis that for three hours before
(23:37):
bed you have 10 lux or less.
Bed you have 10 lux or less,which one lux is equal to one
candle flame, so 10 lux is only10 candle flames.
It's not very realistic, Ithink, for many people.
You know you're still goingstrong three hours before bed,
but just to have that awarenesstwo hours, even one hour before
(23:59):
bed of 10 lux is going to bebetter maybe than what you have
now, and the blue blockingglasses can really help with
that actually.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I love those tips.
Um, I never realized, like howthat really affected like the
melatonin and like just you knowcause we don't really think
about it.
You know you're in the house,you got the lights on and, like
you said, if you do go camping,like you do, like it's, it's
such a relaxing.
(24:29):
The lights are different.
I can even remember growing upas kids like even like if we
watched a family movie orsomething my mom would always
turn the lights out.
Like you would turn the lightsout and you would kind of relax,
and she would always make likethis little pallet in the floor
and we would all lay there and,before you know it, someone's
patting you and saying, hey, goto bed.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Right, I love that.
Yeah, what we do in our home,uh, I don't think I can change,
turn the camera to show you, butI have um little twinkle lights
around the ceiling and Ipurposely got ones that are a
yellow, a very gentle,naturalistic yellowish hue, not
like a bright daffodil yellow,but more of a gentle candle
(25:14):
flame yellow, and I turn thoseon two hours before bed.
I turn off all of the otherlights and have just those
lights, which I have measuredwith my Lux meter app on the
phone and it gives just 10 Luxof light, and so we hang out in
that kind of lighting in theevenings and that, I think,
(25:37):
helps everyone be ready forsleep.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I think helps everyone be ready for sleep.
That is really good.
I like that, and I know we'vetalked a little bit about how
sleep, or lack of it, can affectour emotional regulation and
decision-making.
In your experience, how hashave you seen it show up in both
personal and professionalsettings?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Yeah.
So I am a parent, as you cansee, and I, you know I totally
resonate with what you weresaying about.
You know you can kind of tellor suspect what your kids' sleep
patterns have been when they'redealing with a challenge.
So I've certainly seen that andeven for myself I know, like
(26:23):
you know, last night I only gotsix hours.
I do best with eight.
And so I'm just going to be alittle bit more gentle on myself
, knowing that I don't have allthe tools in my toolkit today.
And how that's going to shapeup for me is that I'm just going
to have a little bit gentlerpace and I'm going to focus on
(26:44):
making sure I've got some ofthose other fundamentals
strongly in place.
Like I'm going to have reallyhealthy meals today.
There will not be no eating out.
I'm going to make sure I'mhydrated, I'm going to make sure
that I'm going outside andtaking stretch breaks and
getting natural light breaksduring the day and just overall
(27:06):
a little bit more gently becauseI don't have the sleep aspect
in my toolkit to be able to dealwell with my day.
And then I want to share astory with you.
Professionally, I work withindividuals from infants on up
in my practice and a woman camein, very high performing woman
(27:28):
works for a tech company inSeattle and then she also had
part of her team was in Englandand she came in because she was
having, so she'd have to travelto England every quarter or
something and meet with them fora week and she was having
fights with her team in Englandand it turned out it was jet lag
(27:52):
and once we were able to gether on a plan to minimize the
jet lag, it was all fine andwhat was happening is she'd be
there for a week, have this youknow negative interactions, and
then she'd come back to Seattleand she'd have, you know, two
and a half months of kind ofhaving to repair with the
(28:13):
English team and she would.
But then, you know, the nexttrip, all the progress that
they've made in like healingtheir relationship, would be
down the drain.
And and that really made a bigdifference for her was just to
be able to get the sleep, evenwith the travel.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Wow, you know what?
And I don't think you know, wethink about that, but I am.
When I don't get enough sleep,I'm a whiny baby.
I am, I'm very, but I'm a whinybaby I am.
And the fact that you'rereminded to give yourself grace
and compassion and to stayhydrated and to not eat out,
because that's the thing You'resleep-deprived, you don't feel
(28:54):
like cooking, you grab thenearest thing.
That makes you feel worse.
You lash out at other peoplebecause your ability to process
information and to control youremotions are not the same.
It looks and feels totallydifferent.
What you could normally take on, you can't.
And just having the awarenessto wake up and say, oh my gosh,
(29:18):
I didn't get the sleep I wasgoing to get.
Today is a day for compassionand recognizing that sometimes I
don't think I give myself thegrace I need and jet lag is real
.
It is so, so real.
So I love that you were able tohelp her get to a point where
(29:40):
she could find a routine.
That would help, because, youknow, having those relationships
are so important and we alwayswant to show up being the best
version of ourselves at alltimes.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Absolutely, and so I don't know if you've heard or if
your community has heard.
It's kind of a new concept insleep.
We have this concept calledsocial jet lag, and social jet
lag is when you have oneschedule on your five work days
(30:12):
and then on your days off yousleep later, go to bed later,
sleep in.
That's called social jet lagand it can cause some of those
problems.
There's a lot of researchrecently just showing that we
need regularity in our sleeppatterns.
So the recommendations whichthis might seem surprising to
(30:34):
people is that your bedtime andwake time not vary more than 30
minutes across all seven days ofthe week.
So you know, on work nights ifyou're going to bed at 10, that
means on weekends you're notgoing to bed any later than 1030
.
Weekdays you're waking up at730.
You got to get up by eight onthe weekends and not sleep in
(30:56):
too late if you really want toboost your sleep and the same
thing for sleep duration, thatyou're not sleeping more than 60
minutes longer on the weekendsthan the work days and if you
are sleeping more than that,then it would be considered
social jet lag which is going tobe some of those problems.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Oh wow, I can see that.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, yeah, I'm messing up your circadian rhythm
.
Oh sorry, makita, go ahead.
No, no, go ahead.
Well, it gets down to yourcircadian rhythm that when you
shift your, you can't shift yourbody clock back and forth
easily, even work day to weekend, just like you can't shift it
(31:40):
from Seattle to England veryeasily you know that, that I
definitely believe that because,uh and I think that's now that
you mentioned I'm like I thinkthat's what's been going on with
me for the last year.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I mentioned that like , well, today I'm going to get
up at five, 30 and like thisweek, no, I think I want to
sleep in at seven, and it neverworks.
I'm always like, oh, this justit's not working.
I don't know which one, I'mstill not getting up when I want
to to do the things that I wantto do, and I'm all over the
place.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
So yeah, yeah, I think that you know, if that was
one of the if I could givethree recommendations that would
be.
One of them is to just reallylike figure out, okay, what
sleep hours are going to workfor me on a routine basis.
(32:37):
You know, I think that there inthe past was really kind of a
cachet or like a cool factor oflike sleeping when you're tired,
eating when you're hungry,working when you feel inspired.
But our bodies just don't workthat way.
Like our bodies like regularitymeals at the same time, bedtime
(32:58):
at the same time, getting up atthe same time and I'm I'm
hoping that that's going tobecome cool is having like a
super regular schedule.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
It makes you feel good.
Though I'm not going to lieLike um, as I'm working towards
letting go of the less is betterwith sleep and going towards.
You know, more sleep is better,especially for me.
I do feel better and one of thethings I used to do in the
mornings is I would get up earlyat five and it worked, and I
(33:32):
would work out.
Me and my husband would go forwalks, we'd come back, we'd have
talks, we'd drink coffee and,within the pandemic, all of that
changed Our whole lives,changed how we did, things
changed.
We had this now new normal thatwe are trying to get out of, to
re-sync our lives back into thethings that worked best for us
(33:55):
and made us feel good and havemore mental clarity.
Because I feel like the bettersleep I get, the more creative I
am, the more mental clarity,the more patience I have and I
just feel good all over.
I just feel good like all over,just feel better.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah, totally.
There's this growing awarenessabout our circadian system and
how it impacts every area of ourhealth and I think about us
being really embedded in theearth.
Right, human beings live on theearth and the earth is rhythmic
(34:34):
in terms of light and darkness,temperature.
You know seasonal weather,length changes over the year,
but over this week it's onlygoing to vary by maybe 10
(34:55):
minutes or 20 minutes.
I mean, it's winter, so we'reclose to the solstice, but that
is not very much variability inthe natural light-dark cycle,
whereas with my light switch ormy thermostat I can have crazy
variability and our bodies arejust.
(35:15):
Our physiology is designed forthat really predictably rhythmic
world and as much as we canconnect with that and go back to
that and implement those kindsof patterns in our home
environment, the better ourhealth will be, both sleep and
other health.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
I agree.
I'm curious, though what aresome of the like most common
sleep myths that might bemisleading, that you may have
heard or people say to you orthey think is like normal, but
they're mostly justmisconceptions.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Well, one of them is that bedtime, having a regular
bedtime, is more important thanawake time.
It's actually your wake timereally sets both your sleep
drive and your circadian system.
So focusing on regularity ofyour wake time is much more
(36:13):
important.
There's that.
The other thing is the myth ofthe longer you're awake, the
more you'll get done.
Basically, the work literature,workplace performance and
productivity literature showsthat after eight hours our
performance tanks.
(36:33):
It really tanks, like in theninth hour of work.
People get done something like15% of what they got done in
their first hour of work.
So just you know, let that go.
The idea that the longer you'reon the job, the more you'll get
done is really not true andpeople are taking from their
(36:55):
sleep to add on to their day,thinking they're going to get
more done and you're just notgoing to get more done.
And I think many people aremaking this decision of I'm
going to have a longer day, butmy performance is going to be
worse and my mood is going to beworse and my regulation is
going to be worse, versus ashorter day when you're at the
(37:16):
top of your game.
And that's the choice I wouldencourage people to make, or try
, and I have this worksheetcalled the Optimal Sleep Plan
and I like people to do it for10 days.
I think you know if everybody,as part of their routine in 2024
, could try 10 days of reallygetting all of the sleep that
(37:41):
you do best with and see whatyour experience is, and then you
have the information to make agood decision for you.
You know, if getting more sleepdoesn't translate into a better
life, then go for it.
Have longer days and shortersleep, but I think for most
(38:01):
people, really optimizing theamount of sleep is going to make
them go.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Wow, I didn't know I could feel this good wow, I
didn't know I could feel thisgood, Definitely Well.
I know you've given me a lot tothink about, a lot of useful
tips, a lot of practical advicethat anyone can actually start
implementing with ease.
Today they can actually juststart implementing the small
(38:27):
things into their life to getbetter sleep.
But before we wrap things up,what is one way you are
redefining self-care in your ownlife?
Speaker 1 (38:42):
For me, it's really about claiming that I am going
to have rest time and recreationtime every day, that sometimes
there's more of a tone of graceand sometimes there's more of a
tone of enough.
(39:03):
Already, I just worked hardfrom 6 am to 6 pm and that's
enough, and I'm going to enjoymy time after dinner.
And you know, there's alwaysthings that are not done.
There's always things that arenot done.
I could, you know, I could work24 hours a day and probably
(39:25):
still feel like there's thingsthat you know.
Oh, this club or this, you know, read this book or improve X, Y
, Z on my website, you know.
But it's like, you know,claiming that three hours before
bed to really just enjoy lifeand I'm winding down and I'm
(39:46):
ready for sleep, just makes allthe difference and I'm winding
down and I'm ready for sleep,just makes all the difference.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
I agree.
Well, tell people where theycan connect with you, where they
can find out more ways thatthey can start learning more
about why sleep is important,and some tips and tools that you
can help them with.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Sure.
So I have a free download of asleep plan, kind of, make your
own sleep plan which I'd love toshare with people, and
hopefully I can give you thelink.
And then on Instagram I'm atskilled sleeper If you'd like
daily tips and inspiration andinformation to keep you
(40:28):
motivated to improve your sleep.
And then, if people like longerform, I'm on YouTube, also at
Skilled Sleeper, and once a weekI give a 10-minute video on a
sleep topic and I always endwith sleep skills, because I
really want people to, yes, havesome of the information, of the
(40:49):
background information,research and findings and
whatnot, but really, where therubber meets the road is how do
I implement this in my life thisweek and for my family and my
friends?
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Well, thank you for that.
All right, you guys I know youprobably was like oh, I didn't
get it, Don't worry If youdidn't have your pens and paper
out.
All of that information will bein the show notes so you can
get your downloads, so you canconnect.
All right, that is all the teathat we have to spill today, but
before we leave, I just want toleave you with this simple
(41:26):
affirmation I give myselfpermission to rest fully and
peacefully.
Each night as I sleep, I trustmy body to rejuvenate, allowing
me to wake up refreshed andenergized for the day ahead.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
All right.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yes, yes, I love that .
It was so beautiful and thankyou so much for coming on and
sharing with us and just givingus so much information that we
can actually use and make sensethat actually works with our
lives.
I love the fact that everythingwas practical and I could see
(42:06):
myself incorporating it.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Wonderful, thank you, everybody Sleep well.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Thank you.
All right, you guys.
That's all the tea.
But guess what?
You can join me each and everyTuesday for more delicious hot
tea.
Until next time, namaste.
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