#259 - Separate the Behaviors from the Addiction - Till The Wheels Fall Off

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_05 (00:06):
Hey y'all, Paige here.
Matt and I are taking anotherweek off of recording due to
live lifing and wanted to bringback an episode from mid-2024.
This conversation crackssomething open for so many
people, especially those whohave spent years trying to make
sense of addiction by focusingon the substance, the alcohol,
the drugs, instead of thebehavior.
What this episode explores indepth is that it's not the

(00:28):
substance that destroys trustand safety, it's the behavior
that comes with it.
The lies, the manipulation, thedismissiveness, all the things.
That's what truly impacts thespouse, the partner, the family,
the behaviors.
And like all of our earlierepisodes, our language and
understanding may have evolvedsince then.
So you might hear us referencethings we'd word a little

(00:49):
differently today, but the heartof the message still stands.
But before we get into it, ahuge thank you to Soberlink, the
sponsor of today's show.
If you're new here, Soberlink isthe world's best accountability
device, uh, disguised as abreathalyzer.
If you're someone like Matt,rebuilding trust after addiction
when your words have lostmeaning because promises were

(01:09):
made and broken, this couldchange everything.
You can create a network ofpeople who get notified every
time you test, and everynegative test becomes another
drop back into the bucket oftrust.
Remember, trust is lost inbuckets and rebuilt in droplets.
Soberlink helps refill thatbucket one test at a time.
You can rent one for as littleas$19 a month when you sign up

(01:30):
for a one-year plan.
Just go to soberlink.com slashwheels and enter your email
address.
Whether you're working towardssobriety, rebuilding your
relationship, or simply creatingaccountability and safety, even
if you've left the relationshipand you have children to look
after, Soberlink provides thetransparency and consistency
that recovery requires.
Thank you, Soberlink, forsponsoring this episode.

(01:51):
All right, let's get into it.
There may be a few thingsdiscussed that are a bit dated,
but let's go ahead and jump backto mid-2024 for separate the
behaviors from the addiction.

SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Welcome back.
Welcome back to another episodeof To the Wheels Fall Off.
I'm Matt.

SPEAKER_04 (02:11):
I'm Paige.

SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
Today we're talking behaviors versus substances.
This is gets kind of complicatedfor people.
They oftentimes attribute thebehavior to the substance.
And what Paige has always saidis it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_05 (02:22):
No, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.
Um, I like to look at behaviorsbecause behaviors actually
impact us.
It's not the addiction thatimpacts us, it's not the
substances that impact us, it'sthe actual behaviors, and that's
what we're going to discuss indepth here on this episode
today.

SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
Yeah, if it was just me ingesting the substance,
what's the problem?
I'm just ingesting thesubstance, right?
Right.
Let's say that it doesn't costany money.
I'm just ingesting a substance.
It's not the substance thatbothers people, but they don't
really realize that.
Yeah.
Because that's the most glaringthing that they can attribute to
the behaviors.

(02:58):
But we're going to get intothis.
Yes.
Tear it apart, dissect it, andhopefully reframe the way that
you look at this.
This has been helpful for us.

SPEAKER_04 (03:05):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
But first, we're going to get into some
announcements real quick.

SPEAKER_04 (03:08):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
Hey, if you didn't know, we have a community.
We have a free Facebookcommunity.
It's called Two Fo Community.
That's TWFO Community.
Uh, come check it out.
If you're a listener and youdidn't know it existed, it's a
thing.
And you can find it by clickingthe link in any of our social
media profiles.
Hey, we've also got a course.

SPEAKER_04 (03:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
Independently strong.
It's the only thing I'm aware ofout there that is designed
exactly for what you are goingthrough.
It is designed for the spouse orpartner of someone struggling
with a substance abuse disorder.
It's uh it's it's robust, it hasgot 10 modules.
It is self-paced.
We do not time you, we will notclock you on this thing.
It also includes access to us asyou work through it and

(03:46):
community calls.

SPEAKER_05 (03:47):
Yes, they start this Wednesday.

SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
Paige is going to be hosting community calls.

SPEAKER_05 (03:51):
If you are listening to this on release day.

SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
Yeah, you'll be in the community call, hopefully,
at some point.
Get in there.
You should have received anemail about this.
Uh, it's a great place toprocess what you're working
through in the course material.
Super helpful.
But it's also science-backed,research-backed, with the help
of Dr.
Christopher Taylor.
He is our clinical architectthat helps us design this, so
it's not just us two goons.
You have to know that part of- Ihate that you call me a goon.

SPEAKER_05 (04:14):
I'm not a goon.

SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
Okay, one goon and one beautiful woman.
It is the experience of livedexperience of us with the
research and the license of amedical professional.

SPEAKER_05 (04:25):
Yeah, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
So it's not just us, it's it's awesome.
Uh, people that are working ithave said that listen, I've
spent thousands on therapy, wishI'd have just got this.
People have said, um, I'vesearched the internet for God
knows how long, and I couldn'tfind anything, but I stumbled
across this, and there's nothinglike it.
There are other people who havestudied this very thing their
entire lives and found reliefthrough this.

(04:47):
Yeah.
So it is different, it is new,it is out there.
You get the perspective of me,recovered addict that has worked
through this, and theperspective of a spouse that has
been there, done that, and alsohelps other spouses work through
this.

SPEAKER_05 (04:57):
Yeah, you will come out feeling stronger.

SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Uh, rocks are still available too.
Yeah, more and more rocks aregoing out.
I love seeing this.
Every time an or comes in for arock, I'm like pumped.
I'm like, this is a person thatlistens first of all.
Yes.
And they're they'reacknowledging their spouse's
sacrifices, the spouse'sjourney.

SPEAKER_05 (05:17):
Yes.
And it makes my heart happy thatpeople who are actually in
recovery from substances arelistening and gaining something
from the show.
Like that just goes to show thatit's it's important for
everybody involved, you know?
Like they're learning something.

SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
It's amazing.

SPEAKER_05 (05:34):
And I hope that it's helping their marriage.
I hope it's helping theirrecovery.
I hope it's helping so manydifferent aspects of their
lives.

SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
It's like our greatest dream come true.
That's something that we didn'teven think would be possible in
the beginning.
It's like we're gonna tell thisstory, and and people who are
struggling and addiction aregonna hate it.
But it's helpful for them.
And I love that because it wassort of intended that way.
I just didn't know if anyonewould actually listen.
But it's incredible.
So these rocks, with the help ofa listener, um, an awesome
listener, gave me this idea forthis rock.

(06:01):
So in 12-step programs or yeah,generally 12-step programs, I
think they all do this.
They give a coin or a keychainor something to denote, hey man,
you've been sober for 30 days.
Here's a here's a token to showthat you know we're proud of
you.
That's awesome.
You can show this to people.
Hey, I'm really working it.
It's nice.
I've got mine on a what do youcall that?
Like a plaque?
Sure.
Yes, all the coins up there, andyou kind of collect them as time

(06:23):
goes on.
You can look back on them andremember where you were.
It's a cool way to justcommemorate your your efforts.
Spouses don't get that.
I remember coming home with mymy one-year coin, and everyone's
really happy for me.
And Paige was happy for me, butthere was also part of her that
was sad because your journeywasn't acknowledged, your
sacrifices weren't acknowledged.
Like you were as much a part ofthis as anybody, and you were

(06:45):
the victim of a lot of it.
And there's no acknowledgement.
Yeah, there's nothing there.
Yeah, like this is a way to dothat.
So on the front, it's got ourlogo, the two-foe logo, till the
wheels fall off, with our littleskull guy there with the we
should break this down realquick.
If people didn't know, I knowour logo, I was thinking the
same thing.
It's not just a skull, it'ssupposed to, so first of all,
okay, backstory.

(07:06):
We we are like Halloween people.
We always enjoyed spooky things,and so we wanted something that
reflected our personalities, butit had to have meaning too.
A this is a a skeleton man orwoman, doesn't really say
person, human skeleton person,and that represents the maskless
nature of authenticity.

(07:26):
To truly be yourself and to liveby your values means that you're
not living for anyone else oranything else.
You were living your truestself.
So that requires taking yourmask off underneath all of us,
underneath these masks, thesefaces we wear.
There's a skeleton man likethat.
One of his eyes is a heartbecause we deal with matters of
the heart.
And the other one is it's a whatdo you call it, like a red cross

(07:48):
symbol, like a medicine symbol?
Yeah.
Because we do as well.
I mean, we talk about self-care,we talk about taking care of the
mental health, taking care ofwe're not licensed counselors,
but I think you can gainsomething from this all the
same.

SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (07:59):
That was part of our journey.
And then uh it's got this likedead twig looking thing with
little leaves growing out of itto symbolize growth from
something that you thought waslost.

SPEAKER_02 (08:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
So there's must there's something to this logo.
I love the logo.
Not just a skeleton person.
Uh on the back of it, it saysthank you for being my rock,
which is the real point of it.
You get this, and it's like,thank you for being my rock.
And it is a rock, so that's fun.
Puns are fun.
Um, and I think that's all wehave for announcements.
Yes.
You can check those out on ourwebsite.

SPEAKER_05 (08:25):
All right, so let's talk about behaviors versus
substances.
Like, I don't know if we've Ibring it up You say it all the
time.
I do.
I do, I say it all the timewithin our our episodes, and I
don't feel like I I I hit on itas much as I really want to,
because it's almost one of thesethings that came natural to me.
Because with our situation,you're a closet closet addict.

(08:46):
So everything that you did inactive addiction, I was looking
at the behaviors.
I was recognizing what you weredoing that was impacting me,
taking money out of the account,neglecting me, lying to me,
leaving on our, you know, forhours on end.
I recognized those behaviors.
I didn't make excuses foraddiction or use or whatnot.

(09:09):
You know, I I just, it wasn't inthe cards for me because you
were, like I said, a closetaddict.
So focusing on the behaviors isso important for so many of us
because it does impact us,addict or not.
You know, if somebody's lying toyou and they're not an addict,
how are you gonna handle that?
Are you gonna make excuses forthem or are you gonna say, I

(09:31):
don't appreciate lying becausethis goes against my values
because honesty is a value ofmine.
So what am I gonna do?
I'm gonna do things to protectmyself, which means I'm not
gonna be around this person thatmuch.
I'm going to do whatever ittakes to protect myself.
You're not gonna make excusesthat they're just an addict, or
you know, you're gonna say, no,they're lying to me.
Or it's just just the substancethat's causing a strength.

(09:52):
Or whatever.
Yeah, because you're like, no,they're lying because it affects
you.
The behavior affects us.

SPEAKER_00 (09:58):
I love your frame of that.
And I would encourage listenersto for a moment, if you're
driving your car or whatever,like imagine your loved one and
forget about the substance for amoment.
Picture that they were like meand they were a closet addict.
Like, I hid my addiction foryears and years and years.
Like you knew I drank, but eventhen, I hid how much I drank.

(10:19):
I hid that.
Right.
I was very careful about keepingmy bottles in certain places, so
you didn't know I was drinking.
So the so like the the housebottle always stayed full.
And you were just getting thebehaviors.

SPEAKER_05 (10:30):
And I knew you all the time all the time, too.
And I didn't like appreciatethat.
And I knew that you would takeAdderall sometimes, like, but it
wasn't like it was all behaviorsstill.
It was still always behaviors.
It was not the fact that youwere doing those things.

SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Yeah, it wasn't out in the open and just apparent
and to everybody.
So, so frame it like that.
Like, let's just focus on thebehaviors for the context of
this discussion in this episode.
And yes, before we get into it,we are very aware that
substances can cause certainbehaviors, substances can make
them worse, I should say.

SPEAKER_04 (11:01):
They amplify them.

SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
Amplify them.
Like, we're not, we're notthat's not lost on us.
I don't want people to thinkthat we're over here sitting
there thinking, like, no, Ididn't always run around the
neighborhood naked, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
Like, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 (11:13):
Alcohol certainly played a part in that.
Yes.
We're not we're not saying itdoesn't, but we're focusing on
the behaviors and how theyaffect you.
That's what's important aboutthis conversation.

SPEAKER_03 (11:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
Okay.
Let's let's dive into this andlet's talk about where people
generally look at thisincorrectly in your perspective,
in your opinion, and and how youlook at it.

SPEAKER_05 (11:34):
Yeah.
So I I see that a lot ofwheelies struggle with
separating the two because it'sunderstandable, like we there's
so much information aboutaddiction and alcoholism and why
it happens, and then we leaninto having like so much
compassion that we loseourselves in the process.
So we can have compassion,right?

(11:55):
But not tolerate the behavior.
So I wanted to kind of backtrackfor a second.
So for me, when I'm called outon a behavior, recently you
called me out on a behavior, andit sucks.

SPEAKER_00 (12:06):
Can we just let the let it all hang out and let's
just l talk about it?

SPEAKER_05 (12:10):
What happened?

SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (12:11):
Yeah, that's what we're gonna talk about.
Like it sucks that I know thatwhy my behavior was present.
Um, but it didn't excuse me fromcontinuing to do the behavior.
You want to talk about whathappened?

SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
Yeah, we were we don't argue a lot.
Like we really don't.
Like stupid spats here andthere, like dumb little stuff,
but 10 second spats.
Like, we don't have like bigblow ups, and I really don't
bring up a whole lot of things,but there's one thing in
particular that I challengedPaige something on here
recently.

(12:45):
So Paige is extremelyintroverted, extremely
introverted.
When we started this podcast, Imore or less I think I don't
know how long it took me toconvince you that this was gonna
be a good idea, but it was likeI was just I was relentless.
I was like, we should do this,we should do this, we should do
this, we should do this.
Knowing full well that you arenot a person that really likes

(13:07):
to talk in public um or be puton the spot or have to come up
with things, and like you'rejust you're very much like in
your mind type of person.

SPEAKER_04 (13:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:18):
So we went somewhere.
Well, where were we when thisall took place?

SPEAKER_04 (13:21):
We were it was a it was a kid eventually.
Yes, it was a school event.

SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
A school thing.
So we went to the school thing.

SPEAKER_04 (13:26):
You don't have to go into detail.

SPEAKER_00 (13:27):
We showed up, and there's like it's a small
gathering of parents and kids,and there's like, I don't know,
five sets of parents probablyish.

SPEAKER_01 (13:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
And I walk in and say hello to people because it's
an intimate setting, so youcan't really like just not say
anything because then that'd bea little bit awkward.
So you just say hello, exchangepleasantries, BS a little bit.
And I noticed that like Paigewas next to me at one point, and
then she just sort ofdisappeared, and I couldn't find
her.
I turned around and she was likehiding in the back, sitting in

(13:58):
this chair, not talking toanybody.
I'm like, well, that's kind ofwhat Paige does.
The the conversation came aboutbecause we we interact with
people more than we ever have.
Like when we decided to startthis podcast, we also signed on
to making ourselves public.

SPEAKER_02 (14:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
And y'all, if you ever meet Paige, she is the
kindest, most generous, lovingperson you'll ever meet.
But if you met her, you mightthink, I think I think she got
an ep and problem or something.

SPEAKER_04 (14:25):
She's a bitch.

SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
That's not true.
She's just she's veryintroverted and she's very
self-conscious.

SPEAKER_05 (14:32):
I'm also I'm very a lot of my HSP comes out with
this.
I'm I pick up on subtlesubtleties a lot and I'm just
very uncomfortable, you know,just not um small talk makes me
uncomfortable and things likethat.

SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
You get overstimulated very easily.

SPEAKER_05 (14:48):
I do, I do.

SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
And then like pair that with just like general
social anxiety, you start tothink too hard about like how
you're appearing to people, orlike it's she she gets in her
head about it.

SPEAKER_05 (14:57):
Well, I also isolated myself a lot during my
healing process.
So getting back into the wild isbecoming a process.

SPEAKER_00 (15:04):
And I think part of that being like being a mother
to young kids too, like you'reunless you're the type of mother
that's like involved with allthe moms, that wasn't that
wasn't you.
No.
You were you were more like toyourself about things, and
you've kind of always been thatway.
And it's it's worked well foryou, but now we've made this
decision.
It's like, hey, let's start thispodcast, let's let's start a
course, like let's do workshops.
And so we have to be out there.

(15:24):
And it's not to say that youneed to be fake at all, because
you're not a fake person.
I just want people to know you.
And like I think they deserve toknow you, the person they hear
every week, like the realversion of you.
So I challenged Paige and Isaid, Hey, I know this is
difficult for you.
I know that you struggle withthis, but I'm gonna challenge
you to step up to the plate abit more and introduce yourself
and talk to people and just getmore comfortable doing it.

(15:46):
Just like the podcast, likealmost a hundred episodes in,
and just you get morecomfortable whenever you expose
yourself to it.
And how did you respond to that?

SPEAKER_05 (15:53):
Oh, I was mad.
I was mad.
I was mad, I was angry.
It stung, like it really stung.

SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
I was that nice about it though, was I not?

SPEAKER_05 (16:03):
You were.
I mean, there was a point yousaid that no, you seem like a
bitch.
You did tell me that.
You said that.

SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Oh, I think you're right.

SPEAKER_05 (16:09):
You did because you had to spell it out for you.

SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
I just spelled I was like, but Paige, people think
that you're a bitch and you'renot.

SPEAKER_05 (16:14):
Right, right, right.
I know.
And and it was fine.
And I was like, it stung becauseit was true, and it was because
I know this about myself.
Like I know that this is abehavior that I have that I've
really needed to work on.
And I had used an excuse of notworking on it.
You know, like, okay, I've likeI said, I healed for a long time
in isolation.

(16:35):
I wasn't ready to do it, but youcalled me out and you challenged
me.
And I felt a lot of shame thenext day with the way that I
reacted towards you because Iwas like, golly, that was really
hard.
Do you have the message?
Can you pull the message up ordid you save it?

SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
I've got it somewhere.
Yeah.
I can I think I've I think Iactually did save it.
Let me see if I can find it.

SPEAKER_05 (16:54):
Because I I had to, I was really mad whenever he
said something.
And I was like, I just went tobed after that because I didn't
want to say anything.
I didn't want to react too much.
Because I did I did react, but Ididn't want to be like super
reactive.
I was like, I just I'm gonna goto sleep.

SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
In in the moment, it was wild.
Like I felt like how much youmust have felt for all these
years.

SPEAKER_05 (17:15):
You said that too.

SPEAKER_00 (17:15):
Because I was like, you are straight gaslighting me
right now.

SPEAKER_05 (17:19):
No, that's okay.
Hold on.
You said that I didn't likeintroduce myself, you didn't see
me.
I did talk to people, I didshake hands, I did do that.
So I wasn't gaslighting.

SPEAKER_00 (17:31):
Okay.
I'm sorry, I didn't see that.
Yes, exactly.
Um, it it felt very like this.
Must be how you felt all theseyears.
When you bring up a normal,reasonable concern and you're
really sweet about it, and youget this like anger retort.
But anyway, the next day, uh thenext morning, um she woke up and
sent me this message.
She said, she she put like thesefour points.

(17:52):
She said, one, thank you forcalling me out on my bullshit
and for challenging me.
Two, the truth hurts, but itsets you free.
That's something we always sayis that the truth will set you
free, but at first it's gonnapiss you off.
Yeah.
That's true.
You said point three, I'm sorryfor handling it like a child.
Point four, I will work on allthe things.
I had a ton of process, I I hadto process a ton of emotions

(18:15):
since last night.
Shame, catastrophizing, sadness,anxiety, and acceptance.
I know what it needs to be doneto get out of my comfort zone.
I love you.
And I've I responded like, Ilove you too.
I understand we're human, we'regonna make mistakes.

SPEAKER_05 (18:26):
And like And you know that I'm going to do
something about it.
Absolutely.
You know that I'm going toactually push myself to change
because 100%.
I've done that our almost entirerelationship.
You bring something up to me,you challenge me, and I'm going
to be honest and try to fix it.
When the tables are turned andactive addiction, that doesn't
necessarily happen.

(18:47):
You know, it's like the otherperson's not going to take that.
They're going to react like Idid and maybe say something
similar to that, but the actionsare not going to be backed up.

SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
I love how we've gotten derailed here on the
subject of the episode because Ithink this is important
nonetheless.
Something I hear all the timefrom people who struggle with
addiction is they they feargiving too much because they
don't feel like it's going tocome back.
Like a lot of people have thisvery transactional nature about
relationships where like I'vemade a massive amount of changes

(19:18):
to myself.
And it takes a lot.
That's what it took because Iwas so far gone.
I had to make so many changes.
But I've never talked to anyonewho didn't have something to say
about their spouse.
Well, but she does this, shegets mad in traffic and freaks
out all the time.
She's short with me.
She gives me this ugly look whenI do this, and she's better work

(19:39):
on those things.
She's got to work on that stuff.
And my my point is always hey,we're gonna tackle the big
problems first, okay?
Those are small problems.
There are big problems, thereare small problems, okay?
These things are not detrimentalto the ongoing relationship,
these things aren't detrimentalto your children.
These are uh nuisances to you,no doubt.
Your feelings are valid.

(20:00):
And my guess would be she willwork on these things, but we've
got to address some major stufffirst.
Yeah, but shut up with all that.
She will get to it, okay.
I want people to know that ifyou're in recovery listening to
this, like it's a two-waystreet.
It is a two-way street, but yourshit's way worse.
Yeah, it's way worse.
Let's be real.
Yeah, y'all, it's way worse.
We need to address these vitalissues first before that you can

(20:23):
even have safety to have aconversation like Paige and I
just did.

SPEAKER_03 (20:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:27):
Because spouses are gonna feel very defensive, yeah,
because they've been had theirass kicked for so long over this
kind of stuff.
It's like, you have to give methis.
I had to give first.
That's fine.
What's the harm in that?
Like, what's the worst thingthat hurts there?
Your ego?
Yeah.
Is that what you're afraid toget hurt?
Is your ego if you go firstwithout a guarantee that they're
gonna return the favor?

(20:48):
Well, let me tell you what, ifthey're invested enough in the
relationship that you're alistener, they are going to make
changes when changes need to bemade.
But we're talking about smallstuff, guys.
We're talking about the way thatshe presented herself to a
public group for the sake of,hey, let's let when listeners
show up, let's not let themthink that you're like angry or
something.
Because you're the sweetestperson ever.

SPEAKER_05 (21:10):
I'm just really awkward.

SPEAKER_00 (21:11):
And that's that's okay.
And so, but I had to challengethat little part of you that's
very personal and it very muchhurt.
And you were a little upsetabout it, but what I got back
was the same things I've donefor you for all these years,
which is that hurt.
I understand, I hear you, I willmake changes as you were right.
That's what we do for eachother, yeah, and that's how it
works.
Right.
I went first.
Why wouldn't I have?

(21:32):
Right.
So I just want people to knowthat like this is how a healthy
relationship works exactlyeventually.
Yeah, but back to the behaviors,yes, because that was a behavior
in in the absence of asubstance.

SPEAKER_04 (21:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
Um, behaviors stick around, and a lot of these
behaviors are learned andthey're really ingrained, and a
lot of these have nothing to dowith the actual substance
itself, nothing to do.
So focus on just the behavior.
How is the behavior affectingyou, your relationships, your
safety, the the role model thatchildren have?
Yes.

(22:05):
Whole other topic that we'regonna get into eventually.

SPEAKER_05 (22:07):
Yes, yes.
Yeah, so I I kind of let's getback to I want to talk about
certain examples of how peoplecan shift their mindset on
focusing on the behaviorsinstead of the substances.
So let's say that your spousespends an excessive amount of
money on alcohol or drugs, andyou may say, okay, he's an
alcoholic, he's sick, hisdisease makes him do crazy

(22:30):
things.
While this is accurate, itdoesn't excuse the fact that
they are spending money youdon't have.
It impacts you and yourchildren, and this is where we
look at the behavior instead ofthe alcohol.
Because if we keep excusing thatbehavior on the substance, it's
gonna keep happening.
It's gonna keep happening.
If you're able to say, no, thatbehavior is actually affecting

(22:52):
me, you can look at it moreclearly, in my opinion.
I think it's easier instead ofthe the blaming it on the
substance because then you'relike, okay, this really does go
against my values.
I do need to do something aboutthis.

SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
A lot of people fall into the compassion trap.
Yes.
And that's easy to do.

SPEAKER_05 (23:09):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
It is easy to do.
There's so much informationabout addiction, and it ranges
from they are horrible people,they're scumbags, leave them, to
they are very hurt.
They're abused people, they aretraumatized people, they are
sick people, give themcompassion and as much love as
you can.
And those are like the those arekind of the two extremes that
you get.

SPEAKER_05 (23:30):
Yeah, we go to the middle ground.

SPEAKER_00 (23:32):
And there's so much information.
It's like, well, where do you,what do you listen to?
Like what's what's right, what'swrong?

SPEAKER_05 (23:37):
It's black and white right there.
You find the middle ground, youfind the gray area.
Like for you, I knew why you hadthe behaviors you had.
I knew why you were the way youwere, but it didn't excuse it.
Like I could have compassion forthose be like why you did what
you did, but I'm still gonnachallenge you because you can
heal from that.
You learn from that, you growfrom that, you get better from

(23:58):
that, you can change yourbehaviors.
It doesn't excuse it.
Just like I was harmed in ourrelationship, I had to it was my
responsibility to heal fromthat.
It was my responsibility to dealwith my trauma, not make it an
excuse to treat people likecrap.

SPEAKER_00 (24:16):
Yeah, it's it's it's insanity at times when you get
caught in that compassion trap.
And it's because you can look atsomeone and know their past like
you know mine.
Like I didn't if if I told you,and we'll get into this in
another episode, but justgeneral background, I was I I
grew up around addiction and Ididn't have the greatest home

(24:37):
life.
And that did it contribute?
You absolutely it contributed tothe way I the the way I ended up
as an active addict out there.
It yeah, and you could look atthat and say, like, none of that
was his fault.
Like that's that's horrible thatthat happened.
Yeah, that these these eventsled him to where he is today.
But the fact of the matter is,is that I'm I was like 30 years

(24:59):
old, blowing through all of ourmoney, lying about everything,
treating you horribly, speakingto you with no respect.

SPEAKER_05 (25:06):
You weren't an equal partner.
It's whenever your behaviorsfrom all of that started to
impact me, is when I startedmaking changes.
And some people might think, oh,that's like selfish.
You're only thinking aboutyourself.
You know, what about him?
He's the one suffering, he's theone who's sick, he's the one who
has a problem.
No, your behaviors affected me.
It impacted me.
That's not selfish, that'shealthy.

SPEAKER_00 (25:27):
I think so too.

SPEAKER_05 (25:28):
It's freaking healthy for me to say, no, I'm
not going to tolerate that.
This is not acceptable behavior.
I don't want this in my life.
I don't want it for my children,I don't want it for my
grandchildren.
Like, it stops with me.
It stops here and now.
That's not a bad place to be.

SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
No, it's not a bad place to be.
But don't fall too far into thecompassion trap.
You can hold two thoughts atonce.
We're really big on that.

SPEAKER_04 (25:51):
Yes, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 (25:52):
Hold two thoughts at the same time.
And Paige very much understoodwhere some of this was coming
from, but also without having alot of the like the I guess the
background on what I wasactually doing.
You were just like, you're justan a-hole.
Like you thought you justmarried an asshole.
Right.
I remember you saying that.

SPEAKER_01 (26:11):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (26:12):
Like, I didn't even know you were an addict, I
thought you were just anasshole.

SPEAKER_01 (26:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:14):
But you're still an asshole.

SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
Even you're just an addict asshole.

SPEAKER_05 (26:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
It didn't excuse it.

SPEAKER_05 (26:20):
And that affects me.
It doesn't excuse the behavior.

SPEAKER_00 (26:22):
Right.
That's a great example.

SPEAKER_05 (26:24):
Because everybody can change their behaviors.
We can all become better people.
Just like that incident we justtalked about.
I used that as fuel.
The shame that I had from that,I use it as fuel to change my
behaviors to become a betterperson.
Addicts are no different.
You just have to remove thesubstance first before you can
get to that point, which mightbe difficult, but it's a choice.

(26:46):
You can recover and change andchange your behaviors.

SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
I think that and I maybe I'm naive about this, but
I think that recovery ispossible for everybody.
I really do.
I think that there's a path thatexists for everybody.
Does that path look the same foreverybody?
Hell no.
No.
No, no, but there's a path thatexists.
Now, to what degree are youwilling to challenge your
previously held beliefs andideas and do the work necessary?

(27:12):
That's where the rubber meetsthe road, and that's where we
start to see this hugedifference in people that try
recovery and those that aresuccessful at it.
We can talk about all thereasons why in another time, but
I believe that it's possible foreveryone.
I believe that people canchange.
I believe in the human capacityof change and of learning and of
stretching.

SPEAKER_05 (27:32):
They have to really want it.
I wouldn't, I I don't think Iwould have waited around for you
forever to change.

SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
I'm glad you did.

SPEAKER_05 (27:38):
If your behaviors didn't, you know, they they if
they were still impacting me, Iwas gonna keep challenging you
or you know, build myself up tomake decisions that I needed to
do.

SPEAKER_00 (27:49):
Yeah.
And what what are we about toget into?
Because I was gonna go throughsome of the behaviors.

SPEAKER_05 (27:54):
No, I've still got some examples I wanted to go
through real quick so for peopleto understand.
Like, I'm just breaking it down.
So let's just say that yourspouse lies about something
because we know that lying ishuge in these relationships.
Um, and you may say, like,they're honest when they're
sober, but when they get drunk,the lies keep coming, or when
they use the lie, the lies keepcoming.
This might be really hard tohear, um, but it also might

(28:16):
validate you as well.
But even during their sobermoments, they're lying.

SPEAKER_00 (28:22):
It's not a switch you just turn on.

SPEAKER_05 (28:24):
It's not a switch.
Like the lying is a behaviorthat's not excused because they
were drunk or high.
Like it betrays your trust.
It will impact your mentalhealth.
And it's not a healthyrelationship if lying is
involved.
But when they're sober andthey're saying things to you,
there's a lot of manipulationthat goes through that.
Like in between the the soberday and the drinking at night.

(28:45):
Like, even like we'll we'll say,you know, communicate with them
when they're sober, you're stillnot gonna get through to them
because they're not gonna hearyou.
They're still in that that mode.

SPEAKER_00 (28:57):
Addiction doesn't stop just when the substance is
absent.
And we've talked about this tosome degree, but think of the
addiction as it is it isattached to them, okay?
It's like this thing attached totheir shoulder, and it's more
prevalent and it's more obvious,and it's more it's just more
disgusting to you wheneverthey're actively drinking or

(29:18):
taking a drug.

SPEAKER_04 (29:18):
Because it's amplified, it's amplified.

SPEAKER_00 (29:20):
These behaviors are amplified, right?
Inhibitions are lowered, peoplesay ridiculous things, they act
in crazy ways that are out ofcharacter, but the addiction is
still there, and lying is abehavior that accompanies it,
but is not addiction doesn'tcause lying.
And you think about it, if I'mnot using right now, but I drink
every single day, I'm analcoholic, I will lie to get

(29:45):
back to keep the addictiongoing.
Yeah.
To keep that going.
So lies take place all the timethroughout the day.

SPEAKER_05 (29:52):
There's the love bombing, there's the um
manipulation that goes on thatyou know is part of of lying.
Like I remember whenever youwere in active addiction or
whatnot, like you would likewrite really long love bomb
paragraphs, texts, or whatever.

(30:12):
And I'm like, this is just kindof weird because in healthy
relationships, it doesn't go tothat extreme.
Like we'll tell each other thatwe love each other and you know
we appreciate each other, butit's not like this whole, like,
oh, you're the best thing forme, you're the best person in my
life.
You know, with the love bombing,that's like really ex extensive.
Like, that's I don't want to sayit's a lie, but it is making

(30:36):
something bigger than it reallyis to keep keep it going.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (30:42):
Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
No, yeah.
I mean, it addiction is it'smarked by these extremes.
Yes.
Because go back in your messages10 messages back, and what do
you have?
You have someone calling you theworst names ever, right?

SPEAKER_04 (30:52):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
Saying horrible things about you and your
friends and your family and thetype of mother you are and all
kinds of sick stuff.
And then you get this othercrazy extreme.
So which is it?
It's all the same person.
Yeah.
That's what I I've tried to getpeople to understand.
It's like this is the sameperson.

SPEAKER_05 (31:08):
It's really difficult.
That that goes, we we try toexplain that kind of like with
the whole behaviors uh versussubstance thing.
It's kind of hard to explain ina way, but we're trying to it
goes hand in hand with what youjust said.

SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
Yeah, and lying, man, it is like I'm gonna take a
quick moment quickly here on theharmful effects.
The harmful effects of lying.
Like lying, lying is detrimentalto a relationship.
It's also it can be detrimentalto your mental health.
Um, again, like I will say thisevery time just about every
episode.
Like, we are not licensedcounselors, we do not diagnose

(31:43):
people, we do not provide, we donot pathologize anything, like
we are just people who've beenthere before and read a lot
about this stuff and experienceda lot of it through the
experiences, the journeys ofother people as well.
Yeah, been around this deal foruh quite a quite some time.
But some of the harmful effectsof lying, it can cause erosion
of trust.
Trust is the foundation for anyrelationship of meaning, period.

(32:05):
Doesn't matter if it's abusiness relationship, doesn't
matter if it's just a generalfriendship, doesn't matter if
it's a relationship you havewith things or you aren't even
necessarily directly related to,a relationship with the
government.
Like you could argue that youknow trust is required in order
for that to that to run.
Trust with the business, you'regonna go somewhere and you're
gonna get what you ordered.
Trust is it is inherent in anyhealthy relationship.

(32:26):
Lying erodes trust.
So it will repeated lies willdestroy trust in relationships,
whether it's personal,professional, it's foundational
for healthy interactions, and itwill cause massive difficulties
if it goes on.
Yeah, causes emotional distress.
So being lied to can causefeelings of betrayal, anger,
sadness, confusion.

(32:48):
And these contribute to a rangeof mental health issues over
time.
It causes self-doubt insomebody.
Consistent deception can leadindividuals to question their
judgment and perception ofreality, leading to self-doubt
and lack of confidence.

SPEAKER_05 (33:00):
When we start um we talk about the loss of self.
Yeah, and we don't trust ourinstincts.

SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
Yeah, we talk about the loss of self.
This is what it does.
It makes relationships breakdown.
I think that's pretty obvious,but causes massive rips in
relationships.
Uh, and it can actually causebehavioral changes in people who
were lied to as they become moresuspicious, paranoid, overly
cautious, and it impacts theirbehaviors with others.
I mean, you start to reallyfoundationally change the way

(33:26):
that someone's mind works.
I mean, I mean, you you makepeople just generally negative
about the world because they'vebeen lied to over and over and
over.
Yeah.
Um, there are some potentialdisorders and diagnosis.
These just come in general,right?
These aren't guaranteed by anymeans, but um I mean, I had

(33:47):
almost every one of those.
Post-traumatic stress disorder,anxiety disorders, depressive
disorders, um, paranoidpersonality disorders.
So that one, that one's prettyinteresting.
Check that one out.
CPD.

SPEAKER_05 (34:01):
Lying can lead individuals to develop pervasive
distrust and suspicion ofothers.

SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
That's kind of what we talked about earlier.
Yep.
Um, yeah, I mean it's scary, butuh borderline personality, while
not caused solely by lying, itcan be exacerbated by it due to
the consistent deception.
Um CPT CPTSD, trust issues,attachment disorders, like lying
is possibly the most damagingbehavior.

(34:27):
And we toss out lies as addictsand alcoholists like they are
nothing.
Yeah, it's like Oprah givingaway a car.
Here, you get a car, you get acar, you get a lie, you get a
lie.

SPEAKER_05 (34:35):
It's like you're you're it's like you're
programmed to do it orsomething.
And then even whenever youremove the substance and you go
to treatment, some people stillcontinue to lie.
That's gonna affect you.

SPEAKER_00 (34:50):
It will, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 (34:52):
The lies, the effing lies.

SPEAKER_00 (34:54):
I just like lying is it's very natural in in many
ways.
Like children, I was reading astudy on this the other day.
Like, children generally aroundkindergarten age can figure out
that they can learn, they canlie, they can just not be honest
about something to so they don'tget in trouble, so they don't so
they stay out of trouble.
Okay, and for many of us, we'retaught you don't do that.
Like our kids, they'll do this.
Caught our kid in a lie today.

SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (35:15):
I mean, and we we talk about the honesty and how
important honesty is and howimportant trust is.
But it's a natural thing thatmany people do.
I don't want anyone to thinkthat like someone who lies is
just terrible.
Everyone's lying.

SPEAKER_05 (35:25):
Everyone lies at some point, yes.

SPEAKER_01 (35:27):
How like have you ever had a friend with kids?

SPEAKER_00 (35:29):
Have you ever had a friend that got their hair
colored and they asked you, Whatdo you think about new hair?
And you were like, Oh, I loveit.
And you thought, really, likethat doesn't look very good.

SPEAKER_05 (35:36):
Yeah, but it's not affecting your your But it's a
lie nonetheless.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
Lying is natural to us.
Sometimes we do it for goodreasons, oftentimes for bad
reasons.
But when it comes to addiction,we're often doing it to just to
keep the addiction alive.
It becomes a self-preservationin many ways.
Like, I I can't not do this, Ihave to do this, so I have to
lie.
And then you do it enough times,it becomes second nature, it
just becomes an operating partof your personality.

(36:01):
It's like someone installedsoftware on you and you just use
it all the time.
Yeah, it be you you just becauseyou do it so much when you're
lying to people about theselittle things.
You start to think, like, what'sthe harm?
Like, I'm not really doinganything to hurt anybody, like
I'm just drinking.
Like, what's the big deal?
You start to rationalize allthis stuff, your brain gets
really creative about how you dothat.
And before you know it, you'rejust being dishonest about all

(36:22):
kinds of stuff, whether it'sexaggerating, telling white
lies, or like really meaningfullies about no, I didn't cheat on
you when you know you did.
I mean, really important things,but it it sort of ramps up over
time.
It starts with no, I didn't takea cookie out of the cookie jar,
and it ends up with thesemassive things.
The more you do it, the morenatural it becomes to somebody.

(36:43):
And it sort of becomes like away of programming for people.
Yeah, but it's massivelydamaging to relationships.
But lying is probably the mostdamaging and it's the most
common that we see for people,even in recovery.
This is harmful.
You could be removed from thesubstance, you could be sober
for two, three years, and youlie about something, your spouse

(37:04):
will react as if they arewatching you drink just like you
did whenever things were reallybad, whenever it was active and
you lied about it, they caughtyou in a lie.
Feels exactly the same to aspouse.

SPEAKER_03 (37:16):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (37:17):
Feels exactly the same.
Yep.
These behaviors have to beaddressed.
So when everyone's likesubstance, substance, substance,
I'm gonna breathe allies them,I'm gonna drug test them.
You can do those things, butwhat about the lies?
Yeah, what about the lies?
You can hold someone accountableall you want, but until you
start to reprogram that in themand their need to lie when they

(37:38):
don't even realize they'relying.
Like we've heard of pathologicalliars, right?

SPEAKER_05 (37:42):
Yeah, they'll believe their own lies.

SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
Like lying is a disease where it's like they've
created an alternate realitythey live in where these lies
are real.
Narcissists do this.

SPEAKER_05 (37:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (37:49):
I mean, this is this is damaging stuff.
Like you cannot be in arelationship with these people.

SPEAKER_05 (37:53):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
It's not possible.
Yes, it's not.

SPEAKER_05 (37:56):
Yeah, the trust is not gonna be there.
And like you said, like everyrelationship is built on trust.
And if there's lying, thenthat's just it's unhealthy for
all involved.
So why you gotta focus on thosebehaviors and not make it an
excuse that oh, they're justlying because they need to keep
their addiction going.
Okay, that could be true, butare we gonna allow it?

(38:16):
No, you don't tolerate itbecause it is gonna harm you.

SPEAKER_00 (38:19):
You don't tolerate it.
No, that's what Paige is saying.
Like someone can have Are therereasons for lying valid based on
what we know about addiction?
Yeah, but does that matter?
They're harming you.

SPEAKER_05 (38:28):
Yeah, doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 (38:29):
Doesn't matter.
Like the like the nature of fireis such that it's hot and it
will burn you.
Okay.
Do you touch fire?

SPEAKER_05 (38:38):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (38:38):
No, why?

SPEAKER_05 (38:39):
Because it will hurt me.

SPEAKER_00 (38:40):
But fire's hot.
It's it's just it's just doingits thing.
It's natural, it's hot.

SPEAKER_05 (38:44):
You still have to protect yourself from it.

SPEAKER_00 (38:46):
Exactly.
Think of it that way.

SPEAKER_05 (38:48):
Yeah.
Okay, so here was anotherexample.
Is like, um what if your spouseis only angry when they drink?
So you may say that it'salcohol, they're so sweet when
they're sober.
And like we said before, alcoholmight amplify the behavior, but
the anger will come out duringsobriety as well, unless they
learn how to cope and managetheir anger in a healthy way.
Because their anger does impactyou.

(39:09):
That is the behavior, not thesubstance.
And we've seen there's manypeople I've heard where their
partners will stop using or stopdrinking and they're angry.
Like they are just angry.

SPEAKER_00 (39:21):
I was.
Yeah.
Remember that time I tried to Itried to quit cold turkey, like
um I think like four or fivemonths before I checked into
treatment.
I and it was it was thatChristmas before.

SPEAKER_04 (39:31):
Yes.
Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (39:33):
I was as irritable as people get about everything
because you didn't learn how tomanage your anger.

SPEAKER_00 (39:41):
I had all this, all like all this um information
coming in, and I didn't have anyway to categorize it.
I didn't have any outlets forit, I didn't know what to do
with it, and it was justoverwhelming, and the result was
anger.
But I was always angry.
You know, like this is likesomething in me, and then the
substance just exacerbated it.
Right.

(40:02):
Just made it worse.

SPEAKER_05 (40:02):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
Um let's talk about some of the other behaviors
because you talked about anger.

SPEAKER_05 (40:09):
You talked about anger lies and then like
spending excessive money.

SPEAKER_00 (40:13):
Okay, so here's some other things that you may have
picked up on that have nothingto do with the substance itself.
So we are very big.
If you ever with someone who'san active addiction, focus on
the behavior, stop looking atthe substance.
Stop obsessing over the factthat once you remove the
substance, everything is cured.
In order to protect yourself, inorder to become empowered and

(40:33):
really educated about thisstuff, this is crucial.
This is important for you tounderstand that it's not just
the substance.
It is not just the substance.
It's not.
It's not.
Other behaviors will linger.
Some will come to the surfacethat you didn't even realize
were there.
Some of these are likecompulsive behaviors.
Um, even after the substance isremoved, a lot of people engage

(40:54):
in compulsive behaviors.
So it's gambling, overeating,excessive shopping, sex or porn
or other big ones.
Anything to make you feel good,anything to drive that that
little or to to to it's thatlittle scratch that you've got.

SPEAKER_05 (41:10):
Yeah, isn't it like a dopamine kick?

SPEAKER_00 (41:12):
Yes.
So I gained 70 plus pounds myfirst year sober.

SPEAKER_05 (41:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (41:16):
I still had compulsive behaviors.

SPEAKER_01 (41:18):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (41:18):
I removed the substance and it was still
there.
I was eating candy like youwouldn't believe.
I had a drawer, my bottomdrawer, my nightstand, you could
open it and it would barelyopen.
It was just full of candywrappers.

SPEAKER_02 (41:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (41:28):
Full of them.
Um, avoidance.
Addicts often use substances toavoid dealing with emotional
pain or stress.
So without the substance, theywill oftentimes continue to
avoid facing their problemsdirectly.
They become withdrawn.
They're not talking to you.
You thought when then when theygot sober, you would get, you
know, know it from the notebook.
Right.
Like, oh, he's gonna talk to me,he's gonna care about me, he's

(41:49):
gonna be interested in our livesand ask about the kids.
No, he doesn't know how.
These behaviors are just there.
Yeah.
Substance removed, they're stillthere.
Manipulation.
Many people with addictiondevelop manipulative behaviors
to obtain their substance or toavoid consequences.
This behavior persists evenafter the substance use stops.
Yes.
Manipulation is another very bigone.

(42:10):
Yes.
Lying about all kinds of weirdstuff.
Sometimes it's aroundsubstances, sometimes it's not.
Sometimes it's I don't want toget caught in this lie, so I'm
gonna work this deal so itdoesn't look like I was up to no
good when I really was.
And it's just stuff continues.
Dishonesty, once again, justlying.
Um, isolation, kind of back tothe avoidance.
Um, but attitudes, evenattitudes like denial,

(42:33):
entitlement, negative thinking,blame, the instant
gratification.
We talked about that, desire forjust that immediate reward.

SPEAKER_04 (42:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (42:42):
Um, delayed discounting is very difficult to
do in people who have activeaddiction.
And that persists.
That persists.
Like a lot of people, when theyget sober, start to spend money
like you wouldn't believe.
Like they are not thinking aboutlong-term effect of not saving
money or investing in something.
They're just gonna do what theywant.
They need that, they need thatfix.
That's a behavior that existswithout the substance.

(43:03):
Um, low self-esteem oftencontinues.
This is true for me.
Um, cognitive distortions, truefor me.
Identity issues.
Um, a new sober identity is abig part in being comfortable
being sober.
Yeah.
People that struggle with that,that are just dry or haven't
quite come to an understandingthat the pattern that, hey, you
know how every time you drink,shit falls apart, will continue

(43:25):
until you decide not to drinkanymore.
That's a tough thing to toughrealization.
A lot of people stop thesubstance, but they keep doing
this, and you feel all theeffects of it as a spouse.

SPEAKER_05 (43:34):
Oh, that's what I was gonna ask.
It's like all of these thingsthat are happening, are these
truly affecting us?
Yes.
Deep down they are because ofthe behaviors.

SPEAKER_00 (43:41):
We're talking about your most intimate relationship.
We're not talking about yourfreaking neighbor four doors
down.

SPEAKER_05 (43:46):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 (43:46):
This is your most intimate relationship is your
life partner.
Right.
This is the person that you havedecided to have children with in
many cases, that you have tiedyour name to legally.
So whether or not, like whatwhatever marriage means to you,
there's still a a law c thatgoverns that contract.
Like, this is a very importantrelationship.
Right.
And that these things willaffect you in more ways than

(44:07):
one.
If it's not just emotionally, itcould be financially.

SPEAKER_02 (44:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:10):
You know, it it's going to affect you deeply.

SPEAKER_02 (44:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:13):
These behaviors, all these things will affect you.
This is a person that you'rearound all the time.
You're responsible for raisingchildren with these people.
I mean, this is this is bigstuff.

SPEAKER_05 (44:22):
Yeah.
And I know people might ask,okay, so how do I, you know,
address this with my partner andlet them know that it's the
behaviors and not the addictionor the the substance that's
bothering me.
Um, I mean, to be real, like youcan't trying to voice your
concerns just doesn't typicallywork.
Um, trying to get them to seeyour point of view and how

(44:44):
they're impacting you doesn'twork.
Um we have to change who how wereact and how we are and what we
say.
So we can set boundaries basedon the behaviors and not the
substances.
So I encourage people that Iwork with.
Like, there's a lot of peoplewho will say, Okay, I'm not
gonna be around you when youdrink.

(45:06):
Okay, I understand startingsmall and doing something like
that, but that's still focusingon the substance.
How about you don't want to bearound somebody who um
disrespects you or yells at you?
And this could be while they'redrinking or when they're not
drinking.
You can use your I feelstatements and say, I feel
uncomfortable and unloved whenyou yell at me.
If you continue to yell at me, Iwill remove myself from the

(45:27):
home.

SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
You're gonna know the feeling.
You're gonna know what what whatPaige is talking about here
because when they're notdrinking and they do it, it's
gonna feel exactly the same.
It's like, oh, they're beingthat person right now.
Like, oh my God, I hate whenthey do this thing.
And it's not just the substance,but acknowledge that.
Acknowledge that it's behavior.
It's it's that behavior fromthat person that's really
harming you.

SPEAKER_05 (45:48):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (45:48):
It's not the drink.

SPEAKER_05 (45:49):
Right.
But even when they are drinkingand they do these things, just
focus on the behavior becausethat's what's truly impacting
you.
It's not the fact that theydrink, it's the fact that they
are yelling at you,disrespecting you, calling you
names.
You know, that's that that iswhat is harming you.
Focus on that.

SPEAKER_00 (46:09):
Yeah, love bombing is another one too.
Like we talked about lovebombing a little bit, but
alcoholics do this thing oraddicts do this thing a lot.
Um, people that struggle withsubstances, I should just say.
Um, it's like feigninghelplessness, where it's like
they act incapable to elicithelp or sympathy from other
people.
Like you can I've I've read textmessages from people, and

(46:32):
someone will like you'resuggesting, like essentially,
like it's gonna be verydifficult to communicate this.
I've seen people try it.
Yeah, I've yet to see someonesucceed, but I've seen many try,
yeah, some better than others.
But this person did a reallygood job at just sticking to the
facts, very compassionate, veryunderstanding about it.
Was like, hey, when you do this,this is how I feel, and this
hurts.

(46:53):
And like for you to uh you know,work on these things, and we'll
challenge you to to focus onthat.
It was very, very well thoughtout.
It's like kind of how Ipresented to you.

SPEAKER_01 (47:01):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (47:02):
And what they got back was all they heard from
that, the addicted person, wasthey are a sorry piece of shit,
good for nothing human.
And I'm like, you don't reallybelieve that.
But I know a lot of people thatsay these things to elicit
sympathy from other people.
Yeah.
It's another form ofmanipulation.
Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_05 (47:19):
Like love bombing is right, and they might actually
feel that way, but I to somedegree.
But I don't think I I think it'san impulsive reaction, and it's
still not an acceptablereaction.
Just like that's how I feltwhenever we had the discussion,
but I didn't react that way.
I reacted in a way that wasobviously not the best reaction,
but then I went to sleep and Iwas like, I owned it and I

(47:42):
figured it out.
These people don't do that,they're gonna go down this like
whole ordeal of excuse me, ofwhat is it, the Darvo type
thing.
Like they're gonna start doingthat kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (47:54):
Yeah, I I want to make something else clear.
Uh, you've probably, if you'relistening, have received a text
like Paige sent me, like, thankyou for calling me out.
I appreciate you for that.
Followed by no action.

SPEAKER_02 (48:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (48:03):
This was followed by action.
Yes.
I know and I trust 100% that youthink about this pretty
regularly.
And you you you challengeyourself in moments, and in your
own way, you're beginning tocome out of your shell a little
bit and do all those things.
Like, I I know this about you.
Yes, I see it.
Yeah, there's action.
A lot of people can say thesethings, but there's no action.

SPEAKER_05 (48:25):
There's no action.

SPEAKER_00 (48:26):
That's massive.
It's all just fluffy.
It's just words, man.

SPEAKER_05 (48:28):
It's all words.

SPEAKER_00 (48:29):
Just words.

SPEAKER_05 (48:30):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (48:30):
How does that feel?
That's a behavior.
How does that affect you?
That's massive.
That that erodes trust.
Yeah.
Alright, what's next?
That's all I got on that.
No way.

SPEAKER_05 (48:42):
Yeah, way.

SPEAKER_00 (48:43):
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (48:44):
Um unless you wanted to add something.

SPEAKER_00 (48:46):
I can get to some of the ways, because I mean, I
think for some people, it's hardto put your finger on like what
they're doing.

SPEAKER_05 (48:52):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (48:52):
Like what someone's doing.
Like, um, like how how people inactive addiction oftentimes
manipulate gaslight orinvalidate.
And it has nothing to do withthe substance itself.
And we can talk about some ofwhat's going on inside the brain
that that causes this stuff.
Because like it's not lost on usthat addiction is a disease.
Like, I know, I know, I know,but I don't care.

SPEAKER_04 (49:14):
It's not an excuse.

SPEAKER_00 (49:16):
I don't care.

SPEAKER_04 (49:16):
There's treatment.

SPEAKER_00 (49:17):
I know, like, I've been one.
I am one.
Like, I'm very aware thataddiction is a disease, but I'm
also very aware of what it takesto move past these things.
I'm very aware that it'spossible to move past these
things.
Just stopping and saying, I havea disease, you have to for you
just have to deal with this isridiculous.
That's absurd.
It's a disease with treatment.

(49:39):
Like there are ways.

SPEAKER_05 (49:41):
Exactly.
It's an excuse to keep doingwhat you're doing because it's
what's comfortable for youinstead of getting out of your
comfort zone and figuring outwhy the hell you're doing what
you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 (49:49):
So here's some of the ways that addicts will
manipulate.
So Darvo is one that we talkedabout.
Yep.
And Darvo is an acronym, andit's deny, attack, reverse,
victim, and offender.
This, we actually did a TikTokover this, and people think I'm
a maniac, and that and I gotroasted by a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 (50:06):
That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 (50:07):
We were talking about how I used to um gas uh
guilt trip.
Guilt trip, guilt trip.
And that's what that's whatDarvo is.
It's a it's a form ofgaslighting where when you bring
up something, somethingcompletely normal and rational,
I will deny or deflect.
That's the D by saying, No, Ididn't do that, or I will

(50:29):
deflect back and say, Let's talkabout your problems.
And this I've seen these in textmessage exchanges all the time
for me.

SPEAKER_04 (50:35):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (50:36):
And then you attack.
So I deny or deflect, then Iattack you and come after you.
Now we're not talking about thereal problem.
We're talking about somethingelse.
I'm getting you off of this.
And then you reverse victim andoffender.
So you're the victim.
Let's not forget that.
You are the victim.
I'm making myself the victimnow.

SPEAKER_02 (50:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (50:56):
Darvo is a big one.
And that's part of manipulation,but that's also part of the
feigning helplessness that a lotof addicts will do.
It's when I when when I drop tothe ground and start crying and
telling you how awful I am, partof that is performative.
I believe that wholeheartedlybecause I did the same thing.
I'm not saying everyone doesthat.
I know there's some people outthere with extremely low
self-esteem and they're reallystruggling.

(51:16):
And I know that, and I I havecompassion for that, but I know
that part of that is also thatis not how adults act.
And that is very much aperformance.
Right.
That is a performance.

SPEAKER_05 (51:25):
I mean, I've felt that way before.

SPEAKER_00 (51:27):
I've everyone's felt that way.

SPEAKER_05 (51:29):
But I don't put it on you.
I know that it's somethingwithin me that I have to work
on.
That means that it's somethingthat I need to change.
I can't blame you for it.
Like we all have those feelings.
That's called, I mean, that'sjust emotional maturity.

SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
Yes.
That's the real issue underlyingall of this.
Yes.
All of this is about emotionalmaturity.

SPEAKER_05 (51:49):
Yeah, it's like you there's a lot of stunted growth.
And that's what we took.
If we go back to like the kids,kids lie, right?
I think that a lot of addictsthey start using it stunts their
growth or whatnot, and they justdon't grow up.
They're still stuck in thatphase of being able to lie and
not having consequences.

(52:09):
They still have the mind of achild.

SPEAKER_00 (52:11):
Yeah, I had a child brain.

SPEAKER_05 (52:13):
Yes, you did.

SPEAKER_00 (52:13):
Like 17-year-old kid brain.
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (52:16):
When you got sober.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (52:17):
Like that's how I felt.
I remember when coming out oftreatment and everything else,
and I was like, I'm behind.
Like, I'm so far behind.
Like, I would hear adults haveconversations about things I
never paid attention to before.
And I feel so left out.
Like, oh my God, I'm so farbehind.
And at first, it's like, oh myGod, am I ever gonna come out of

(52:38):
this?
But then there's another part ofme that was stronger that was
like, I will do whatever ittakes.
And I've been given a courseforward, you know, through IOPs
and all kinds of stuff.
And it's like, do this andyou're gonna be okay.
And I just stuck with it.
And it it works.
Like I'm my age now.
I think I'm my age at least.

SPEAKER_05 (52:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (52:53):
Now, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (52:54):
I think I'm caught up.
I do, yeah.
I agree.

SPEAKER_00 (52:57):
But anyway, uh another way playing the victim.
We we talked about that guilttripping, which we were just
discussing in that clip.
Yep.
If you haven't seen it onTikTok, it's the one with like a
bunch of views.
Um, charm and flattery.
Oh man, this is one too.
The cringe I see.
The girls, you know it.
You know, you know this.

(53:17):
I know you know it.
I I see this in messages all thetime.
I'm like, there's no way thatthat guy thought that that was
like a a normal response tothat.

SPEAKER_05 (53:25):
You know, though, I've I've I've heard some
wheelies um miss that part.

SPEAKER_00 (53:31):
The charm and flattery.
It's fake though.

SPEAKER_05 (53:34):
That's what I and I I hate to say that out loud, but
I think that's true.
I think it is, I think it isfake.
Like, there's what we weretalking about earlier is that we
don't do that in our healthyrelationships.

SPEAKER_00 (53:44):
We still like we still do I I think daily I look
at you and tell you, like, youare gorgeous.

SPEAKER_05 (53:51):
Right, but you don't do it in a way that's like it's
not fake and phony and cringy.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (53:57):
It's not like you're trying to get something, it's
like you're being You know whenkids butter you up before
they're gonna ask you to gosleep at a friend's house or
something like that?

SPEAKER_05 (54:05):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (54:05):
Yes, that's what it is.
They're buttering, they'rebuttering you up, yes, and
there's a difference betweenthat and someone sincerely
giving you a compliment aboutsomething.
There's a difference, yeah.
Charm and flattery aremanipulative techniques, yeah.
Um or Riz, as the kids call it.

SPEAKER_05 (54:23):
Yeah, I just it just sucks.
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (54:26):
Uh lying boat by omission is another manipulative
technique that a lot of peoplewill use and continue well into
sobriety.
Lying by omission, just notsaying something, withholding
important information tomanipulate perceptions and
decisions.
It's a big one.
Uh gaslighting, denying reality.
Still takes place.

(54:46):
I did this sober, y'all.

SPEAKER_04 (54:48):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (54:49):
Sober.
I did this.
Um, contradicting, contradictingother people's statements to
create confusion.
Just running the old like smokegrenade play.
Like, if I can just confuse youenough, then you'll just give
up.
Just running you through.
You ever seen that meme ofCharlie from It's Always Sunny
with all the like the strings onthe board, and he's like looking

(55:10):
all crazy?

SPEAKER_04 (55:11):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (55:12):
Oh, you've not seen that meme?
Uh-uh.
That's what this one's like,though.
That's like the smoke screen.
Uh, minimizing feelings andprojecting are also things that
stick around.
These are behaviors that areharmful.
These take place even in theabsence of substance.
Dismissiveness.
So when we talk aboutinvalidation, this is a sort of
like a slightly it's aculmination of a lot of things.

SPEAKER_05 (55:31):
But you're talking about stuff like with dry
drunken stuff.
This isn't necessarily what thisepisode is about.
Like this is about how thebehaviors are affecting you.
And these things like affectingthe other person, substance or
not, it it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 (55:45):
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (55:46):
Right?
I or no?

SPEAKER_00 (55:48):
I don't I must not be hitting the point then.
These are things that arethey're doing to you with or
without the substance that areaffecting you.
Okay.
I'm just trying to give somemore examples of them.
Right.
Because we covered money, wecovered Yes, lying, anger.
Right, but like some more ofthese things.
Okay.
Like these things aren't justlike front page news.
Like everyone knows what a lieis, but what does a lie mean?
We're talking about gaslighting,Darvo, manipulation.

SPEAKER_05 (56:10):
Right, right.
This is that a lot of the subs.
Yeah, this is invalidation.
Is this just part of their isthis just part of their their
behavior?
Yeah.
It's just their personality.

SPEAKER_00 (56:20):
Something very common is invalidation.

SPEAKER_05 (56:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:22):
Invalidating someone's feelings, whether
there's dismissive, justbrushing off your concerns, like
that's not important.
That's harmful to you.
That is harmful.
We talk about the loss of self.

SPEAKER_04 (56:32):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:32):
Like we talk about the loss of self and the loss of
um like your your ability totrust yourself and your gut
instincts.
This is where that comes from.
From someone dismissing you,from someone belittling you,
from someone mocking you orbeing sarcastic about everything
you say, or someone ignoringyou.
These things are harmful.
These are harmful behaviors thatyou need to be on the lookout

(56:54):
for.
Yeah.
So we talk about some of the wetalk about addiction, and I just
want to spend just a moment hereto talk about some of the Paige
loves this part.
Some of the neuroscience.

SPEAKER_05 (57:06):
I don't want this to be an excuse as to why people
beh or treat our are why theirbehavior is like that.
Like I don't want you to thinkthat it's acceptable behavior
because of why they do thesethings.

SPEAKER_00 (57:19):
I think that's an excellent preface to all this.

SPEAKER_05 (57:22):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (57:23):
I think that's perfect.
Thank you for saying that too.
But we do have people that arepeople that are in recovery that
listen.

SPEAKER_05 (57:29):
And so um Okay, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 (57:32):
I do want people to know that like um like these
things can be fixed, like thesethings can be worked on.
The brain is malleable, thebrain is plastic, like
neuroplasticity, right?
It can be changed.

SPEAKER_05 (57:44):
Our behaviors can change.
I think it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 (57:45):
But these things do not excuse the behaviors that
your spouse is feeling.
Right.
These things do not excuse thesethings at all.
Just trying to give some um, Iguess, some context, like what's
happening inside someone'sbrain.
Because a lot of times we getthese posts that are like, I
don't understand.
I don't understand.
Like, I want you to understandthat this is probably what's
happening, but I also want youto understand You can't

(58:06):
understand.
But I also want you tounderstand that behavior is
unacceptable.
You should not tolerate it underany circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 (58:13):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (58:14):
Period.
Right.
We talk about in the beginningwhen we open this about having
compassion for someone who'slike struggling, but also not
tolerating the behaviors.
Yeah.
So we talk about the struggle.
This is part of that.
We just talked a lot about thebehaviors that you should never
tolerate.
When we talked aboutinvalidating, when we talked
about gaslighting, we talkedabout manipulation, we talked
about all these things, the theattitudes, the behaviors, all

(58:35):
that crap.

SPEAKER_02 (58:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:36):
Is this who they are.
This is this is who that personis presenting themselves to you.
This has nothing to do with thesubstance itself.
These things exist even in theabsence of it.
The substance just makes theseworse.

SPEAKER_03 (58:47):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (58:48):
Part of what's going on in someone's brain, we talked
about the prefrontal cortex.
This is the part of the brainthat is responsible for decision
making.
It is damaged in many people.
Addiction damages this part ofthe brain.
Um impulse control is can isinvolved in the prefrontal
cortex, decision making,understanding the consequences
of actions.
Addiction compares impairs thesethings.

(59:10):
Uh, the reward system sensitivesince this is a hard one to say.

SPEAKER_05 (59:14):
Sensitization.

SPEAKER_00 (59:15):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 (59:16):
I got one right.

SPEAKER_00 (59:18):
Brain's reward system, so it involves the uh
mesolimbic pathways andneurotransmitter dopamine.
We all know dopamine, um,becomes highly sensitized during
addiction.
And that results in this ongoingdrive to seek immediate rewards
or relief at the even at theexpense of others, and it
reinforces manipulativebehaviors.
These things take place with orwithout the substance.

(59:40):
This is what has happened to thebrain in addiction.

SPEAKER_01 (59:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (59:44):
So again, like just getting them to stop drinking,
do you think they're actuallygonna fix this stuff?
That's the question you shouldask yourself.

SPEAKER_01 (59:50):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (59:50):
Would they ever stop drinking?
Would they ever go to therapy torewire their brain?
Like, that's more important toask yourself.
Yeah, the type of person thatwould do that, if If not, then
then it should make yourdecision easier.
Right.
I would think.
Yeah.
Um, emotional regulationdeficits.
I know all about this one.
So addiction makes it reallyhard to manage emotions because
you're never dealing with any ofthem.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:11):
Right.
You don't have to everyone.
You're not dealing with thebeginning to the end.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:14):
Just when you and just like me, whenever I stopped
using the substance, I was justincredibly irritable and shitty
all the time.
I was mad.
I was manipulative.
I was invalidating.
I was a horrible husband.
Sober man.
Sober.
I was awful.
The behaviors at that point arewhat you were focused on.
You were not worried that mybrain was having trouble getting

(01:00:37):
back to normal.
And especially when I was doingnothing to fix it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:41):
It wasn't until I started to take honest and
earnest action to work on thisstuff that you developed the
patience to say, okay, I'llstick around and see what
happens next.
He's working on it.
He's actually doing something.
He's working his ass off on itevery single day.
Then you gave me some patience,but you were you were ready to
pack stuff and leave.
And many people have alreadyleft and they're wondering, did

(01:01:01):
I make the right decision?
If they're not fixing thesethings, then you absolutely damn
right you did.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:06):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:07):
Um the amygdala.
So the amygdala, which isinvolved in processing emotions,
becomes overactive in people inaddiction.
Uh, it leads to heightenedemotional responses.
That's this whole black or whiteextremes, defensive behaviors
like gaslighting or invalidatingwhenever you feel threatened,
um, habituated behavioralpatterns.
So over time, we talked aboutthis manipulation, lying,

(01:01:29):
deceit, it becomes a habit.
A habit.
Yeah.
The brain reinforces it throughneural pathways.
And breaking it requiresconscious effort and behavioral
therapy to rewire the brain.
If you have a sober spouse whohas jumped your ass for getting
mad at them because they werelying about smoking or they were
lying about um spending somemoney at the casino, guys, this

(01:01:54):
is exactly what I'm talkingabout.
This is exactly what I'm talkingabout.
It's not the substance, it's theeffing behavior.
And if they're not working oncorrecting that behavior, if
they're not acknowledging thatthat behavior exists, if they're
not willing to put forth theeffort to fix the behavior they
are not worth investing in, thisis the most important
relationship of your life.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:14):
If they're not willing to address the behavior
that's affecting you, by theway, right, and your children,
you're just gonna remove thesubstance by goodbye.
There's no point.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:26):
Nope.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:26):
Addressing addiction means addressing all these
things.
All the things we talk about thebrain, this is the stuff that we
are working on.
So defense mechanisms, sopsychological defense mechanisms
is another one.
So projection and denial.
These are often defensemechanisms.
I can't be found out, I have toshoot back with this darvo.
This is like sort of Darvo isDarvo becomes a habit, just like

(01:02:48):
just like we talked aboutbefore, like the um what was
that?
The habitual patterns.
Yeah, yeah.
It becomes a habit.
Yeah, and they're deeplyingrained in somebody and they
will persist.
These things, these are thethings that we're talking about,
these are the things thatspouses are pissed about.
This is the stuff we want y'allto fix.
It's not just the substance,y'all.
Yeah, it's the behavior.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:09):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:10):
It's the behavior, and this is what you were
experiencing.
It was this crap.
Yeah, this is the stuff thatdrove you nuts.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:16):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:16):
And I'm glad that I was a closet addict for that
reason because now you have thestory to tell that I think is
helpful for so many people tobring clarity to a lot of this.
Yep.
Like all this stuff was going onin me.
For you, it didn't matter.
No, like this is gonna kill meeventually.
Like you you talked about this,like it was draining your life
force.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:33):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:34):
Like at some point, you were going to lose the will
to live.

unknown (01:03:37):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:38):
Like, read between the lines if you don't know what
we're talking about there.
But you were losing the will tolive.
Like this was killing you.
Yeah, it was a bad environmentfor our children.
It was a terrible environmentfor all of us.
It didn't matter.
It didn't matter.
The substance didn't matter.
Nope.
The action didn't matter.
The addiction, your trauma,everything you've been through
didn't matter in those moments,especially when you're doing
nothing to really address it.

(01:03:59):
Didn't matter.
It was about this is how I'mbeing affected.
I have to get to a safe place.
Yeah.
We talk about, you know, likesocial learning theory, exactly.
What the course is based on.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:08):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:08):
Is that your environment has a massive amount
to do with your ability to healin a situation.
You're not going to get sick inthe same environment that got
you sick.
Something has to change.
We know this when it comes toaddiction.
We know that addicts don'tsucceed when they go back to the
same environment.
How would a spouse?
How would a spouse ever heal ifthey're back in that same
environment with his behaviorswhen all this stuff is present?
And okay, and I should also saythat you have to give people

(01:04:31):
some grace and patience whenthey're working on this.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:34):
When they're working on it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:35):
Because these behaviors continued when I was
sober.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:38):
To a lesser degree.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:39):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:40):
But they continued.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:41):
But not all of the behaviors continued.
Like you, you, I think that youstopped lying pretty quickly
after treatment.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:49):
I told my last lie on April the 11th.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:52):
Yeah.
2013.
I think that that helpedtremendously.
Like you took that one big pieceof behavior and you worked on
it.
And everything else came off inlayers.
But of course, a few years ago,whenever things were you there
were still some things that youhadn't addressed, I was on my
last, you know, I was gettingreally frustrated with that too.

(01:05:15):
Like I was like, this is, Idon't know if I can stay with
this for a long time.
Like it was the whole thing.
We talked about this in thepodcast where it's like strike
one, strike two, strike threetype thing where like we need to
address this.
If you're not going to addressthis, then I need to reevaluate
our situation.
I was at that point, and thatwas what, eight years after?

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:33):
So you had a patience.
You had a lot of patience forme.

SPEAKER_05 (01:05:35):
I did have a lot of patience for you, but then the
last bit, the last piece, youfinally came around and you
finally figured it out.
The last piece of behavior thatwas truly affecting me.
The invalidating.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:50):
You know, invalidation of emotions, which
should have been picked up likeday one.

SPEAKER_05 (01:05:54):
Yeah.
But it was very just like youdid not listen.
You did not, uh, there wassomething else that was on there
where under the invalidation.
I don't remember what the wordwas, but it was very much.
Oh, go go back down.
Stop.
No, go back up.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:10):
Dismissiveness, belittling.
Dismissiveness.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:12):
You dismissed a lot of the things that I would say.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:16):
Yeah.
And like we we talked about,like uh oftentimes it's said
that people with like narcissismlike don't they don't get
better.
Like people with true NPD, it'soften said that they don't get
better.
They can learn to function, theycan cognitively begin to
understand.
But one of the the the hallmarksof a narcissist is that they
don't have empathy.
Like they don't experienceempathy like normal people
experience empathy.

(01:06:38):
They can learn cognitively.
Like I wasn't, I wasn't thatbad.
And I don't think that I thinkmost addicts exhibit
narcissistic like behaviors.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:44):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:45):
I'm not a clinician, but I don't think that they're
true narcissists.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:48):
No, but their behaviors are very similar and
it feels the same to us.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:52):
It feels the same to a spouse.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:54):
And it does affect it affects us the exact same.
If they're a narcissist or not,it's the same behaviors.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:00):
But the reason I bring this up is because I
exhibited narcissistic typebehaviors in our in our
relationship after sobriety, andlike when it came to
invalidation and Darvo and allthis stuff, you knew why those
behaviors were there.
This was a defense mechanism Ideveloped as a child.
And it was part of me.
And it was like second nature tome.

(01:07:21):
And it took everything I had toaddress that and to break it
because I didn't even realize Iwas doing it half the time.
It was it was compulsive, it wasautomatic.
The work required to recover ishuge.
It's substantial, and it's whyso few people end up with a
happily ever after like we got.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:38):
Because of the work required.
If someone's putting in thework, and when I say work, I
mean intense therapy, some sortof a program.
They are reading, they areinvested, they are listening to
shows, like they are freaking init.
It was, I was obsessed with itas I've ever been obsessed with
anything in my entire life.
Obsessed.
And to this day I still am.
Like it's it's my life.
Like I'm addicted to gettingbetter now.

(01:08:00):
I'm addicted to learning more.
What else can I uncover?

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:02):
Yeah, it's a lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:04):
That's what recovery looks like.
We've talked about that too.
And so you gave me patience forit.
You gave me, you gave me somerope.
Every every time I would show abehavior, I would start to
change, I would address things.
But man, I I love that you youlooked at the behaviors and you
didn't look at the substance.
It's like, F the substance.
I'm not talking about thesubstance, talking about the lie
you just told me.
I'm talking about the way youjust dismiss me.

(01:08:24):
Yeah.
Talking about the way you justspoke to me and your anger and
all these things.
Like that's what's important.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:30):
I feel like if I would have known more about
addiction and then had too muchcompassion for that.
Um would have screwed it up.
I think it would have screwed itup.
I think that um it would haveenabled you more to where Oh, I
would have ran with that too.
Where you would have ran withit.
For sure, I would have.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:47):
Me back then, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:48):
Absolutely.
Because you'd been like, ohyeah, she, you know, you'd feed
off of it.
You'd feed off of it.
Oh yeah, she feels bad for me.
You know, I don't have tochange.
Why would I have to change if ifshe's gonna tolerate the
behavior because she hascompassion?
But I had compassion for youbecause I knew how you were, but
I still wasn't gonna tolerateit.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:06):
I love that.
And I think that's a healthyattitude to take forward.
I think it's I would love to seemore spouses adopt that sort of
an attitude.

SPEAKER_05 (01:09:12):
I think it's gonna take practice because a lot of
people have focused so much onthe substance and learning more
about addiction and and thingslike that instead of looking at
the behaviors.
It's gonna take some practice toswitch it.
And what I'm gonna try tochallenge in the community is to
um start focusing more onbehaviors and not keeping them

(01:09:35):
sober or getting them sober andstuff like that.
Start focusing on whatever it isthey're doing that is affecting
you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:41):
Yeah, pretend this person's not using a substance.
How are they treating you?

SPEAKER_05 (01:09:44):
Exactly.
Yeah, and how is it affectingyou?
How's it affecting your kids?
How's it affecting your life?
Not the substance.
So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'll gointo the community and I'll
start really um pushing it alittle bit.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
And it's not, obviously, it'snot to shame anybody, it's to
help you grow, man.
It's to help you see thesethings in a way that are like it

(01:10:05):
it can open this the way to lookat the behaviors can open your
eyes in a totally different way.
It can be empowering for youbecause then you'll realize, you
know what, I don't have totolerate this just because my
person is an addict.
I don't have to do that.
Their behaviors affect me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:22):
Boom.
And that's it.
And that's that's I think that'sthe moral of the story there.
Yeah.
Is that this stuff is affectingyou deeply and it's going to
change you possibly permanently.

SPEAKER_05 (01:10:33):
Yes, this life changes you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:34):
I mean, this is this is serious business here.
This is the most intimatepartner that you have in life,
and this can't continue.
This just can't continue.
It can't.
Something's got to give.
And I I hope they recover.
I do.
But if they choose not to, Ihope that you have the strength
to make a decision that's bestfor you and your children.

SPEAKER_05 (01:10:51):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:52):
And that's maybe to remove yourself from that
situation for a while.

SPEAKER_05 (01:10:54):
Right.
And just can continue to educateyourself on how the behaviors
impact you, you know, andempower yourself.
Build that strength up.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:11:04):
Know that you can't get through to them with words,
only actions.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:07):
And for every person that's struggling with an
addiction listening to this,like I don't I don't mean to
scare anyone or to to give youthe impression that like I'm I'm
not sensitive to the to theplight of an addict.
I am.
I am one.
I've been there before.
I know how tough it is.
But I also want you to know thatthere are millions of us that
are willing to help.
There are millions of us,whether that's through a 12-step

(01:11:28):
community, whether that'sthrough uh a church group like
Celebrate Recovery, whetherthat's through a cognitive
approach like Smart Recovery, ora secular approach like Life
Ring, or Buddhist approach likerefuge recovery, or some other
path that you choose with alicensed therapist or an
addiction coach or whatever itis, we can get better.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:47):
Yes, but get to the root of the issues.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:49):
We cannot continue to drag people along without
taking action.
We cannot continue to hurt thepeople that love us by doing
nothing with inaction.
Something's gotta give.
Something's gotta give.
Like our goal here is tovalidate spouses, to educate
them, to empower them, and towalk them through a recovery
journey.

(01:12:09):
I hope that you're around to seewhat that looks like because
there's nothing better thanhaving a spouse like you, like
you, Paige, that is empowered.
And it's it's not a threat to meat all.
It's the greatest thing ever.
Like we're in this kid togethernow.
We pick each other up, wechallenge each other recovery.
We're learning together, likewe're on the same page now.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:29):
For so long, it's just it wasn't that way, no, you
know, until you really became tosee this for what it really is.
And like I I know on one hand,yeah, that like nuts to bolts,
she would leave me if Irelapsed.
I know that.
Is that scary thing?
Only if I plan on it, you know?
Like it just keeps me that muchmore accountable.

(01:12:50):
I'm not scared, yeah, I'm notworried about it at all.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:52):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:52):
I've got over 4,000 days that tells me if I just
keep doing that, then I'm gonnabe okay.
So I'm just gonna keep doingthat.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:58):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:58):
I'm not gonna relent, I'm never gonna give up.
So I want everyone to know thatthat's possible.
That is possible for you too.
However, you choose to do it, itis possible.
But the underlying stuff herehas to be addressed.
If you think you're just gonnaremove a substance, you are
going to be sorely mistaken.
Yep.
You were gonna fix problemsbecause we are here to let
people know that's bullshit.
Yep.
We're here to remind them of itand validate them when those

(01:13:20):
behaviors pop back up.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:13:22):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:23):
All right, that's all we've got.
I hope people got something fromthat.
Yeah, I think that's a conceptwe've tried to hammer home.
I'm still not sure if we reallygot it.
It's probably a better way toexplain it.

SPEAKER_05 (01:13:31):
I know.
One day, one day, it'll likecome to me in a way that'll be
able to get through.
But maybe, I don't know, maybewe did okay on this one.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:39):
We'll see.
Yeah.
Let's go back and listen to itwhen we edit tomorrow.
All right, that's all we've got.
It's late here.
We are going to go to bed andget after it.
Uh, looking forward to seeingeveryone at the workshop.
If you're listening to this onWednesday, can't wait to meet
you.
Yes.
Paige is gonna be super sweet.
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:54):
And awkward.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:55):
And awkward.
It's awesome.
I'm proud of you too.
Thank you.
All right, until next time, I'mMatt.
I'm Paige.
And we'll see you.

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#259 - Separate the Behaviors from the Addiction

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#259 - Separate the Behaviors from the Addiction