#262 - Are You Coping or Are You Healing? - Till The Wheels Fall Off

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_05 (00:00):
But you have to change it.
You have to learn how to processit and integrate, you know, have
it available to you and thenstart just acting differently
and accepting what it is andlooking at it for what it is.
And your body will eventuallycatch up to that.
Like you can't avoid triggersfor the rest of your life.
It's not possible.
It's not healthy to avoidtriggers.

SPEAKER_00 (00:21):
Welcome back.
Welcome back to another episodeof Till the Wheels Fall Off.
I'm Matt.

SPEAKER_04 (00:28):
I'm Paige.

SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
What's the difference between coping and
changing?
Like we all know kind ofintuitively what coping with
stress is, uh, how to do it.
We talk about it a lot on theshow, actually.
A lot of what existing andsurviving in a relationship
where there's toxicity is aboutcoping.
But is that the same aschanging?

(00:50):
And what are the benefits ofcoping versus changing?
And what's the difference?
How do you do this?
We're gonna talk about it a lot.
We've got a lot of experiencewith coping and a lot of
experience with changing.
And are you coping right now orare you actually changing?

SPEAKER_03 (01:04):
Or healing, if you want to say that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06):
I like healing.
That is better.
Are you coping or are youhealing?
That's even better.
Let's go with that one.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11):
But we're gonna talk about it today.
It's gonna be a prettyinteresting um episode going
back to a lot of the tools thatboth of us have learned in
getting through this and what westill do today in a lot of ways
in different aspects of ourlife, because as it turns out,
it's not necessarily that one isbetter than the other.
They're both just verynecessary.
Uh, so let's find out where youare today as we get through

(01:33):
this.
First things first, thanks toSoberlink, the sponsor for
today's show.
If you don't know what Soberlinkis, it's the world's greatest
accountability device that isdisguised as a breathalyzer.
If you were somebody like me andyou're in a relationship with
someone and your drinking hasbecome a problem and your words
no longer have meaning,Soberlink may be the thing that
helps you rebuild that trustthat is gone.
Remember, trust, trust is lostin buckets and it's rebuilt in

(01:56):
tiny little droplets.
And every time you show anegative test, it is a droplet
back into that proverbial bucketof trust.
So you set up a network ofpeople that get notified every
single time you use the device.
So I would set up Paige, forinstance, and whenever I would
use the device, it would showher, hey, he's doing the deal.
And this serves two purposes.
One, it holds you accountablebecause whoever you set up, and

(02:18):
you can set up multiple people,they get notified every time you
do it.
So it's gonna keep you fromstopping at the liquor store,
stopping on the at the bar onthe way home and using the
device.
Two, it also gives you a groupof people who are in your corner
rooting for you, which is areally valuable thing to have at
a time like this.
So it's not just a kit, youknow, it's not just a gotcha
tool.
It's just also something that isgonna help you rebuild trust in

(02:39):
your relationship.

SPEAKER_01 (02:40):
Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
What did you just reach over here for?
I'd say the rock.
Gotcha.
Okay.
Uh Soberlink has never, it'snever been easier now to get
into one of these things.
It used to be that you wouldhave to buy a device and they
weren't cheap, like 500 bucks.
And then you would have to get amonthly plan, which is like a
hundred bucks or more than thata month.
Um, because like a cell phone,right?
There's a consistent, likethere's data reporting.

(03:02):
This thing isn't just like aplastic breathalyzer.
This thing has facialrecognition technology, it's
self-reporting, uh, it'stamper-proof.
It has a standby team 24-7 thatreviews the data and they know
the difference between someonewho's got on like a heavy
cologne versus someone who hasyou had something to drink.
And if they notice somethingfunny in the data, they will ask
you to retest.

(03:22):
They are not trying to catchpeople or ruin relationships.
They are just trying to providethe best data possible.
And it is a world-class device.
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19 bucks get you started rightnow, today.
Get a device, get going, minimalupfront out-of-pocket costs.

(03:43):
And since you're an awesomelistener of our show, if you go
to soberlink.com slash wheels,they're going to send you a$100
visa gift card that you can useon anything you want.
You can use it on the monthlyplan cost.
You can use it on Amazon.
You can use it at the grocerystore.
Uh, you can use it on Tufomerch, which we'll talk about
here in a second.
Um, it's yeah, multitude ofuses.
Again, go to soberlink.com slashwheels while you're on the

(04:06):
internet.
Go over to tufo.com, check outour free Facebook community that
is built just for you guys.
It is uh, it's a I think theprobably one of the most or the
last pure places on the internetwhere people are just genuinely
trying to help each other.
And it's amazing.
It's um it's great.
It's got thousands of members,listeners of the show.
You have to be a listener of theshow, by the way.
And if you go, uh we askquestions, it's welcome back,

(04:26):
welcome back.
If you're a listener, that's howwe greet people.
You guys should know this bynow.

SPEAKER_02 (04:30):
Or hey y'all.

SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
Or hey y'all.

SPEAKER_02 (04:32):
Welcome to Paige's perspective.

unknown (04:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (04:34):
That's how, but it's it's built for you guys.
Um, we've got merch up there.
Paige has got one of the rocksright there.
Show them the rock.
It's got our logo on the front.
On the back, it says, Thank youfor being my rock.
This is a really cool way toacknowledge the journey that
someone else has walked with youthrough recovery.
We've also got some merch upthere.
We've got um, we've got somehat.
Is there any hats left?

SPEAKER_05 (04:53):
One hat.

SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
We'll get the last one.

SPEAKER_05 (04:55):
One hat left.
It's a white one, I believe.
We have wait, wait, one or two.
I think it's one.

SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
There's some hats left.
There's um some sweatshirts andthings like that.
And we are actually some reppingsome of the new stuff we've just
got in.

SPEAKER_04 (05:07):
Um it's so cozy.

SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Yeah, super cozy, super comfortable.
If you have our previoussweatshirts, these are this
hoodie versions of those.
So they're oversized, they'resuper comfortable.
They got designs in the back,which we're not going to show
you right now.
Yeah, they're the same.

SPEAKER_05 (05:20):
That would be weird to stand up right here in front
of the camera, but yeah, theythey're this they're the same
brand, but different designs.

SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Yes, different designs.

SPEAKER_05 (05:27):
I'm still around.
And we've got t-shirts as well.

SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
Be on the lookout.
We'll put that on social media,we'll put it on our website and
get all these photos andeverything else taken um in
short order.
All right.
On to the episode.
What?

SPEAKER_04 (05:42):
You're hitting things.

SPEAKER_00 (05:44):
And I apologize for any of you that are sensitive to
mouth noises or anything likethat.

SPEAKER_05 (05:49):
You brought the whole package in here?

SPEAKER_00 (05:50):
I brought the whole bag of dark Reese's thins.
Dark Reese's thins.

SPEAKER_05 (05:54):
It's the best dark chocolate.

SPEAKER_00 (05:56):
Dark chocolate with the Reese's is better than a
regular chocolate, milkchocolate.
Fight me, it's true.
And nothing's better than a thinversion of anything because you
can eat more of them if you'renot like thin Oreos.
Yeah, this is being recordedright before Halloween, so we're
we're snacking a little bithere.
Yeah.
Sugar or fake sugar.

SPEAKER_06 (06:14):
Yeah, so good for us.

SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Anyway.

SPEAKER_06 (06:16):
So I wanted to get into this.

SPEAKER_05 (06:18):
Um, are you coping or are you healing?
Because there's a lot of thetimes where I will see people in
the community or I'll knowpeople who are like, oh, you
know, I'm doing great, which youare.
I'm not dismissing that at all.
It's it's awesome.
I love that you're doing things,but your life might still look
the same.
Like, yeah, you're doing things,but are you really doing things?
Are you just coping?
Are you doing these uh theself-care that we talk about?

(06:40):
But when we talk aboutself-care, if you know it's not
just, you know, bubble baths andworking out and things like
that, it's also making reallydifficult decisions and setting
boundaries.
So we just kind of want to talkabout the biology of coping, the
biology of stress, um, someexamples of how you may be
coping instead of actuallymaking changes or healing.
Um, and I think I don't know,I'm kind of excited to have this

(07:02):
conversation because I, if youlisten to my Paige's
perspective, the beginning, Isay, I'm uh, hey, y'all, welcome
to Paige's perspective.
Tools to cope with tools to helpyou cope with life, right?
And I do give you tools to copewith life, but I also give you
tools to actually change yourlife and to help you within your
healing.
So coping is extremelyimportant.

(07:22):
I'm not dismissing that, but wehave to separate them a little
bit so that we can see what isreally working in your life and
are you using it as an avoidancetool?

SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
Good.
It's a good opening there.
I um Did you even hear me?
Yeah, I did as I was over herefiddling with my candy and
whatnot.
No, I absolutely did.
I think um, I can even hearkenback to the early days in my own
recovery.
And a lot of what I did in theearly days was it was coping.
Like I had to learn how to cope.
Um my addiction, as I kind ofsaw it in a lot of ways, was a

(07:53):
maladaptive coping mechanism.
Whenever I felt stressed or sador inadequate or fearful,
uncomfortable, you name it.
Did I say stressed?
Stress times two, if I didn't,because stress was a big one for
me.
I would reach force substancebecause it was a way for me to
cope through that.
It wasn't changing anything thatwas causing this stuff, but it

(08:14):
was my way of coping.

SPEAKER_05 (08:15):
Right.
Which is important.

SPEAKER_00 (08:17):
Yeah, it's just a very toxic way to deal with it
because addiction's got its ownpitfalls, right?
If that the reason I becameaddicted was because it did work
for a period of time.
And anyone who's ever used drugsand alcohol like I did will tell
you that.
Like we did it because it workedat one point.
At some point, though, it takesover and it actually stops
working, and then it becomes aproblem in and of itself that

(08:39):
causes other problems, and nowwe've got our hands full.
And um, I've got a lot ofexperience with coping with
substances, and then when I gotsober in early recovery, coping
in some of the most extreme wayspossible is we will talk about
some of like the stoicphilosophy of Marcus Aurelius,
and we'll talk about Seneca anda lot about what those guys
thought and how to create likethis inner citadel.

(09:00):
Acceptance is the answer.

SPEAKER_05 (09:01):
Okay, I don't want to go through like a 30-minute
conversation of this, but wewill bring it into context
because it's not just I want toI want to talk about other
things before besides that, butI think it's important for
people to understand where thatis appropriate and where it like
it it's not fully helpful forthe rest of your life.

SPEAKER_00 (09:18):
At the end of the day, spoiler alert, you cannot
cope your way through really badenvironments forever.
Uh, eventually this will startto show up in your physiology,
as we will talk about when weget into some of the allostatic
load, vagal nerve, polyvagalnerve theory, um, and some of
the ways that stress actuallyaffects your body.
And so coping is a veryimportant skill that all adults

(09:41):
need to have.
Don't get me wrong, you will gothrough stressful periods in
your life.
And it is important to know howto deal with that.
If you're someone like me andyou're in recovery, it is
literally life or death that youlearn how to deal with this
stuff.
But at some point, copingbecomes it's not necessarily
avoidance.
I think it's just the absence ofaction.
It is the absence of change.

(10:01):
Um, you're still doing somethingthat's beneficial to you, don't
get me wrong.
But what you'll do as life getsmore and more stressful is
you'll just spend most of yourtime coping.
That's what you do.
You I have something on my chin.

SPEAKER_02 (10:11):
Yeah, keep going.

SPEAKER_00 (10:13):
You're you're you're just going to be coping nonstop.
Um, and that's what I foundmyself doing doing uh a great
deal of.
But in early recovery, I willjust tell the story now and then
we'll get on to the episodeitself.
I've got a lot of experience indealing with stress and coping.
And in the beginning, I wasconvinced that you could not
hurt me if I didn't give youpermission, that nothing could

(10:34):
hurt me if I didn't give youpermission, that I could create
what um what is referred tooften as the inner citadel
within my life, which I couldretreat to into my mind and into
my soul.
And in that place, I gave youpermission about what I gave
permission as to what affectedme and what did not.
And this is like sort of thisextreme idea, wholesale uh

(10:56):
acceptance is the answer.
I literally tattooed it on myrib cage.
It was so important to me.

SPEAKER_02 (11:01):
But it's a cool tattoo.

SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
It's cool, I guess.
But there's this um this quoteby Marcus Aurelius.
And if you're not familiar withMarcus's work, he was a he was a
Roman Emperor.
Um no Greek Greek wait.
Oh my brain just went blank.
Um one of them old guys from theMediterranean is pretty sure
he's a Roman Emperor anyway.

(11:24):
But he he wrote um he wrote inhis journal every day, and at
some point we published thispoor bastard's journal, and it's
called Meditations, and it's thethoughts of Marcus Aurelius, and
Marcus Aurelius was uh of theStoic philosophy thinking and
wrote some of the most beautifulwords about how to cope whenever
life gets crazy.
Also, just some very wisethoughts that have transcended

(11:46):
generations, thousands andthousands of years.
It's a book that I love, and Iread, and every time I read it,
and I've read it a couple timesnow, it's like book fairies go
and put something else new inthere.
I've got it highlighted, mycopy's got notes in it, and it's
just amazing.
But there's this, I think it wasin Meditation Six, I can't
remember, six one, maybe, maybesix eleven.
Um, it says, The mindunconquered by violent passions

(12:07):
is a citadel, for a man has nofortress more impregnable in
which to find refuge and remainsafe forever.
You have power over your mind,not outside events.
Realize this and you will findstrength.
And I took that shit straight toheart.

SPEAKER_02 (12:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:22):
I took that shit straight to heart.
Me and Paige used to havedebates over this all the time.
Isaiah Berlin wrote, Um, I thinkthe book was I Inner Citadel.
Don't quote me on that.
Isaiah Berlin's got this quote.

SPEAKER_05 (12:33):
You're on fire today, boo.

SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
I'm just not on fire.
I like it.

SPEAKER_05 (12:35):
No, I think it's very human.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
He said, uh, when the natural road toward human
fulfill human fulfillment isblocked, human beings retreat
into themselves, become involvedin themselves, and try to create
inwardly that which some evilfate has denied them externally.
If you cannot obtain from theworld that which you really
desire, you must teach yourselfnot to want it.
If you cannot get what you want,you must teach yourself to want

(13:00):
what you can get.
This is a very frequent form ofspiritual retreat in depth into
a kind of inner citadel in whichyou try to lock yourself up
against all the fearful ills ofthe world.
We can this is a stage ofhealing, I think.
I think that we will all gohere.
And I think that it's veryvaluable.
Don't get me wrong, I'm notsaying don't do this because I
think that this is such avaluable tool at certain times

(13:23):
in your life, through certainthings that you go through.
Perseverance is important.
We talk about resilience in theshow a lot, and it is important.
If you're going to get throughthis, whatever you're going
through, some form of this willbe required at times.
Um, I had to go through it, youhad to go through it in some
ways, or you tried, you rebelledagainst it from the beginning,
but yes.
You tried, but I I went throughthis.

(13:45):
Let's let's give an examplethat's not too emotional here.
Let's say that you work in areally, really toxic
environment.
So you have a toxic boss.
Let's say you've got an extremeworkload, let's say it's just
crazy.
I dealt with this during COVID.
I was in logistics during COVID,and I hate all of you for
sitting at home and justordering shit.
You made my life hell.
Thanks a lot.
Almost ruined me.

(14:05):
It's why my beard is gray fromdoing this all day.
Oh my God.
But anyway, uh, I was walking inevery day and it was just a
mess.
It was like there were way toomany orders, not enough truck
drivers to go around, customersthat were pissed off, people
that were demanding of a where'sthis stuff, and we just we could
not, there was not enough supplyfor the demand.
It was just, it was insane.
Prices were going through theroof, everyone was mad, and it

(14:27):
was not a fun time to be inlogistics.
And it was upsetting, likereally upsetting.
It's it's hard not being able toperform your job.
It's hard having to changethings that have been, you know,
policies like on the fly.
It's it's really tough.
It's really tough emotionally toget through that kind of thing.
And I would come home every dayand just be like, it literally
every day was the worst day ofmy professional career, every

(14:48):
single day.
For years, this was like this.
At some point, though, Iremembered what I had learned
about you know, Marcus Aurelius'teachings and everything else in
this inner citadel.
And I realized that it was myexpectations, not the world,
that was causing me stress.
It was causing me anxiety, itwas causing me pain.
Because my expectation was thatmy life was supposed to be not
stressful because it had been atone point.

(15:10):
It had been calm and peaceful,and we had it not to say it
didn't have its challenges, butwe we were able to get through
it.
And then during COVID, it was awhole new level of just suck.
And I had not accepted the factthat this was normal.
And so one day I literally toldmyself this is normal.
This is, you should not expectanything other than to come in

(15:32):
here and it to be crazy andpeople to be upset, and that is
okay.
That is what normal is now.
Um I had to stop teaching myselfto want what I previously had,
which was a stress-free life.
Now think about how toxic thisis at 30,000 feet.
But this is what you have to doto survive sometimes.
This is what you have to do.
Let's say that you've been in arelationship with a lot of
toxicity and you're trying toget through a tough patch.

(15:55):
You have to accept what is rightnow.
And I had to stop giving myselfpermission to get upset at what
I wanted, which was God forbid Iwanted something less stressful,
right?
God forbid you want safety.
God forbid you want like this.
Can this can go too far.
Be careful with this.

SPEAKER_05 (16:11):
It can go too far because we have choices and we
have options.
Like you I could have quit thatjob.
I feel like this mentality isvery appropriate whenever you
don't have choices and you don'thave any, you you you can't
leave like at this moment.
Now you can make steps to leave,like you can make steps to get
yourself out of out of thatenvironment.

(16:32):
Um, but I think it just keepsyou in this, this, this space of
like, I have no choice and I'mjust gonna have to deal with
this.
So I have to shift myperspective.
But the reality is these days,we do have choices.
We have a lot of decisions thatwe can make.
We don't, we aren't stuck inthat environment.
And the longer we tellourselves, like, oh, we just
have to like deal with it andtolerate it, our body's not

(16:52):
gonna let us, you know, stickthat way for a long period of
time.
It just never sat right with me.
Like I understand how importantit is and how it is for like,
you know, way back in the daywhen you didn't have options to
to leave a relationship, ormaybe it was challenging to
leave a job or something likethat.
Then yes, this mentality isgreat, but why don't you look at
all of your options first beforeyou go to that mentality?

SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
Yeah, I agree with you 100%.
This was this was a survivalskill for me that I had to
learn.
But in going to that extreme,what I did learn was that I had
a lot more control over myemotions and my ability to cope
than I ever dreamed.
Yeah.
Um, it's just not a place thatyou can live forever because as
we will talk about, it does comewith its own downsides.

SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
Uh, you know, it's there's cause and effect here.
Don't get me wrong.
This is not a place you want tolive forever.
I tried it though, and I wasconvinced I could do it, and I
did it for years.
Literally years, I lived in thisuntil I got to the point where
it started to affect my healthand it started to affect um my
mental health, it started toaffect my physiology.
Um, my blood work markers werefucked up.
I mean, this is it's it willaffect you at some point.

(17:53):
It comes back to haunt you.

SPEAKER_05 (17:55):
It's supposed to be meant as a bridge and not the
destination to where you want togo.

SPEAKER_00 (17:58):
Beautiful way to put it.

SPEAKER_05 (17:59):
It is necessary in crisis, but if if you're doing
it permanently or you'reexpecting to do this for long
term, it's gonna be harmful longterm.
But like I said, it's a greattool in your toolbox, but we
still need to look outside thebox and not just utilize this
tool.

SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Yeah, and and living in that place for as long as I
did, I I can I have a paintolerance like you wouldn't
believe for emotional andphysical pain because I am a
chronic pain sufferer and I'malso an opiate addict.
That's just a the way it is forme.
And so I have to learn how todeal with a lot of that stuff
too.
Rob Henderson um and he was onChris Williamson's show and
wrote this.
I'll just read this reallyquick.

(18:34):
Rob Henderson explained thisidea really simply.
He said, if your leg is wounded,you can try to treat the leg.
If you cannot, then you cut offthe leg and announce that the
desire for legs is misguided andmust be subdued.

SPEAKER_02 (18:46):
I mean, I get it.
Makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
Basically, is what Williamson says.
Basically, if you can't win at agame, you stop playing.
Say that you never cared aboutthe game and create your own
game with rules which you canmore easily win at.

SPEAKER_02 (18:58):
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (19:01):
This is reframing if you can't win, don't try, is
what you used to say.
I mean, that's how notnecessarily.

SPEAKER_00 (19:07):
I mean, Vic Victor Frankel wrote about this in sort
of a a tangential way in Man'sSearch for Meaning, where he
talks about finding purpose insuffering.
Um, that's kind of what we'regetting at in some ways here.
You know, this is a man that waswrote a book about living in a
concentration camp during thecity.

SPEAKER_05 (19:25):
He did not have a choice.

SPEAKER_00 (19:27):
You're right about that.

SPEAKER_05 (19:28):
He didn't have a choice.

SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
You're right, but I think that the the idea, the
concept, and the ability is apowerful way to bridge, as you
put it, agreed.
Getting through some reallydifficult things in life.

SPEAKER_05 (19:41):
But like I said, that's not that's completely
different than dealing withsomething that you have the
power to change over.
Because that's something that wediscuss in these episodes all
the time is that you are notstuck, you are not powerless,
like you do have the ability tomake changes.
You don't have to be the victimforever.
You can actually step up andmake changes and do something
different instead of just copingor tolerating or dealing with

(20:02):
whatever it is, the situationyou're in, because you do have a
choice.
Um, we're we live in a timewhere we do have more choices.
But what you're explaining, thethe guy didn't have a choice.
So he had to make something outof it and make it beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
And in my career, I could have told myself I didn't
have a choice because I was I'mthe sole provider for our
household.
And so I could tell myself Ididn't have a choice, but I did.
I had choices.

SPEAKER_05 (20:26):
Um and that's hard to accept.

SPEAKER_00 (20:28):
It is, but I had choices.

SPEAKER_05 (20:29):
Because you know how challenging it is to make a
decision that is, you know,scary.
It's unfamiliar.
It's something completelydifferent than what you've been
doing for a long period of time.

SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
Yeah.
And there there are likeaddiction advocates that will
say that addiction is whatpeople had to do to survive.
And in some ways, I canunderstand the argument.
In some ways, I think that'sreally almost kind of like this
this restructuring of thisargument that makes something
toxic seem beautiful in someways.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 (20:55):
Yeah.
You know, I've we've kind of hadconversations about that, but I
haven't really been able toarticulate it in a way that
makes sense for me.
Where where we talk about howlike going through all of that
um can be a beautiful thingbecause you learn a lot of
stuff.
But I'm like, I don't thinkgoing through that is a
beautiful thing.
I think it's the tools that youlearn from it that is a
beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
And then the and then it stands to the the
question is that could you learnthese tools without having to go
through that?

SPEAKER_04 (21:19):
And it's like, I don't know.
I don't know.
That's a whole otherconversation that we need to dig
into.

SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
Fun philosophical discussion someday, maybe.
Okay, let's get into theconversation of coping as we
talked about that.
Cause I because that willprobably come up.

SPEAKER_05 (21:30):
Okay, we're just kind of gonna go through this
again.
Um, so again, coping is not bad.
It's just how we manageunpleasant emotion unpleasant
emotions.
It's how we we we deal with lifeand chaos and things like that.
Um, but again, there's anotherstep forward that we need to
take.
Uh, but like an example would belike if you're journaling about
your toxic situation, but you'renever really confronting it.

(21:51):
Uh, that would be more of copingbecause we do discuss journaling
and how important it is to dothat.
Um, but the reality is thatyou're still not making any
changes for your situation.
Sure, it gets it out to theworld.
It's like venting and talking topeople.
That's important.
But these are coping skills andnot necessarily healing or

(22:11):
changing.
I mean, it is healing because itis part of the healing process.
Like the coping is start is isstarting of the healing process,
but it still needs to go furtherthan that.

SPEAKER_00 (22:19):
This is putting ice on a splinter sticking out of
your leg without ever taking thesplinter out.

SPEAKER_05 (22:23):
There you go.
That's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
You know, you're just come up with that.

SPEAKER_03 (22:26):
Yeah, it's like you're so good at that.

SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
That wasn't good.

SPEAKER_05 (22:29):
I thought it was.

SPEAKER_00 (22:30):
Um, but having a broken leg and just icing it
rather than getting this likestructurally repaired.

SPEAKER_05 (22:35):
Yeah.
And I'm gonna go through a lotof examples later, but right now
I'm just gonna go through likejust two more real quick.
Uh, working out to blow offstress, but staying in the same
overcommitted life.
So we talk about the copingskills within um your uh
self-care routines or whatever.
It's extremely important, butyou can't stop there.
Like you actually have to dosomething about it, or it's
gonna come back to you in otherways that are very

(22:56):
uncomfortable.
Um, maybe being detached fromconflict, but still living in
the tension.
That's another one.
Like detaching.
We talk about detaching and howit's not really a tactic.
It's necessary, it's justsomething that happens.
Um, but eventually you'll haveto recognize like, what does
this detachment really mean?
And what do I need to do aboutit?
Because it's not somewhere youwant to live in forever.
So coping helps you through thestorm, but it doesn't like

(23:17):
rebuild your life or the rebuildthe house that was torn down
within the storm.
Right.
You actually have to takeaction.

SPEAKER_00 (23:23):
Yeah.
And there should also be notedthat there is some nuance and
there's a great area here.
Well, let's say that you've gota pretty stressful life, but you
start working out at lunchtimeand you find that your stress
has decreased to a manageablelevel.
You might have just needed toexercise.
And is this a form of copingwithout changing?
Yeah, but it's very manageable,right?
What you will find is thataddiction, since we're talking

(23:45):
about addiction for a moment,addiction is progressive.
And over time it generally getsworse, not better.
Generally, not always, butgenerally it gets worse, not
better.
So it gets heavier and heavierand heavier and heavier.
And the things that you have todo to cope become so taxing on
your day and in your mentalstate and your emotional state
that it is no longer the juiceis no longer worth the squeeze.
It takes so much to keep up withjust staying back to like

(24:08):
neutral that it's it's at somepoint something has to give.
Something has to give.
And that is a uh a veiled way ofsaying you have to get away from
that situation.

SPEAKER_05 (24:18):
Yeah, and I think another important aspect about
coping is that some peoplearen't ready for massive
changes, obviously, right?
You know, to make big, big, bigdecisions or take action.
So what you do is you start isthat you cope and you do these
things that we teach you, likeum with the self-care stuff, and
it helps build you up to takeaction in a way that you know is

(24:41):
necessary for you.
I think that's been a prettystandard way for our listeners,
like from that have started fromthe beginning and and the the
layers that they peeled off.
It started that way.
It's like it's the coping, andthen it's like, all right, I'm
doing all these things, I'mbuilding myself up, and then I
can finally take action that'sreally gonna be beneficial for
me.

SPEAKER_00 (25:00):
Yeah.
And so there were someresearchers back in the 90s, um,
Bruce McEwen and Elliot Stellar,I think it's how you say his
name, Stellar or Stellar, I'mnot certain, but developed this
idea of the allostatic load.
Um, there is such a thing aschronic coping.
Your body can only handle somuch.

(25:20):
Chronic stress has real,measurable biological
consequences.
And we kind of all accept this.
Now, the allosthetic process andthe allosthetic load certainly
has criticisms.
Like, what are we actuallymeasuring?
Are we measuring um homeostaticmarkers like uh cholesterol
levels or lipid levels in yourliver?
But I think it's very reasonableto say that you know and I know

(25:43):
that when you get stressed, yourbody responds.
Have you ever gotten sickbecause you've been so stressed?
I have.
I know that you have.
You can get sick.
Some people get like they get GIissues, um, headaches, like
constant migraines.
Your blood panels will come backall out of whack.
Chronic stress is bad for thebody.
How bad to what degree?

(26:05):
It differs with every singleperson.
But what we do know is readabout it, allostatic load.
Read about how chronic copingkeeps you in this, it keeps your
stress systems on high alert andactive.
Your cortisol, heart rate,inflammation, all these things
that are are detrimental to youroverall physiological health
start to deteriorate because ofstress.
There's also polyvagal theory.

(26:25):
Polyvagal theory is a prettyinteresting one.
I think that it is in some ways,it has become almost like
horoscopy and almost likeattachment theory, where it
became like a one-size-fits-allidea for what's going on with
you.
And I think it's anoversimplification in a lot of
ways of what is really happeningwhenever you're under an immense

(26:46):
amount of stress.
But I think that what we canagree on is that the framework
that the nervous system onlyreally relaxes whenever you're
in real safety, um, not whenyou're just managing danger
better, better has merit.
And there's merit to that ideathat there's therapeutic value.
It gives people the language forunderstanding safety and what

(27:06):
shutdown is versus connection.
Uh the polyvagal theorybasically breaks down your
nervous system into threedifferent components, and it
talks about how you can be in aum social engagement state, a
fight or flight state, or ashutdownslash freeze state.
And in one, you're safe andconnected.
This is when you're you havewarmth and you can make eye
contact and you can empathizewith people, and then you can

(27:27):
get into fight or flight, whichmany of us know this is your
sympathetic nervous response.
Um, anger, anxiety, racing heartrate, these are symptoms of
that.
And then there's shutdown freezemode, which is when your nervous
system becomes so overwhelmedthat it starts to shut down to
conserve energy or avoid pain.
And this is numbness, uh,dissociation.
And so a lot of these people, alot of people will hear things
like this and try tooversimplify it and try to

(27:50):
almost work around this as thelike the soul theory that
encompasses everything thatyou're going through.
It is a kernel of the truth, butit is not of the whole truth, in
my belief, anyway, and just thescience that I've read about
this and everything else.
It's it's very interesting.
And I think it gives us it'slet's put it this way, it starts
really good conversations.

SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 (28:08):
I can just say that is that your body at some point
cannot be fooled anymore bycoping.
Nope.
It cannot.
I tried this, okay?
I was going, I was going to,when I was going through COVID,
like I only had a handful ofskills that I knew how to work
with.
One of them was box breathing.
I could breathe, I couldjournal, I could make gratitude

(28:28):
lists, exercise, I couldexercise, I would go to AA
meetings, I would talk, um, Iwould all the things therapy
discuss.
Everything that we discussed, Iwas doing every effing one of
these things.

SPEAKER_05 (28:41):
Present moment awareness, crowdness.

SPEAKER_00 (28:43):
And my body was literally breaking down.
No matter what I did, and thisis, and I am someone that is as
good as anybody at this sort ofinner citadel, you know, reading
the works of Marcus Aurelius,and like, I know this shit, and
it still was affecting my body.
Uh, at some point, you cannotoutcope.
Your body cannot be fooledanymore.
Your environment matters.

(29:04):
Your body knows when peace isreal and when it's not.
Chronic coping is more or lessfunctional freezing.
Um, you're gonna get numb,you're gonna get fatigued,
you're gonna get detached, andit's gonna start to affect your
life in a in a multitude ofways.
But true healing lowers yourbaseline stress, it lowers the
stressors, and that is donethrough environmental changes.

(29:25):
The basis of our course issocial learning theory, which
essentially states that yourenvironment has a great deal to
do with the way that you're ableto cope and respond to stress
and your triggers and yourenvironment is a huge player in
that, but we can't always changeour environment.
Uh, very sympathetic to that,that there are reasons why we
stay in these situations.
I am one of them.

(29:45):
I have my own reasons.
I stayed in that workenvironment.
Um, some of you have these samereasons for the reasons that you
stay in your marriages and youstay in your relationships.
Maybe there's children, maybethere's finances, maybe you're
just not ready yet.
Uh, it's very real.
I I just want you to know thatif you're thinking that
self-care is going to be thecure all, you're wrong.
Right.

(30:05):
Just unfortunately.
It is a beautiful bridge and itis a great place to go whenever
you need respite.
You need to find some, some,some calm from that storm, but
it is not a place to live forthe rest of your life.
Unfortunately, I hate to ruin itfor you.

SPEAKER_05 (30:17):
Well, your body's not going to let you.
It will, it's going to come out.
I did this for a very longperiod of time for a lot of
different things in my life.
And it always comes back to biteme in the ass to where it's
like, okay, I'm doing all thethings that I knew would get me
to where I need to be, but it'snot working anymore.
And that's because my body andmy mind are trying to tell me
that I need to make a change,that I need to set boundaries,
that I need to feel something orfeel my feels and process them

(30:40):
and actually do something aboutit instead of breathing myself
out of it or trying to cope withit or, you know, like um uh just
talking positive affirmationsand all that.
Like it just doesn't work whenyou have major stressors in your
life.
It's it eventually they're notgonna work.
And when they're not working,you really got to pay attention

(31:00):
to that and and try to askyourself, you know, what is it
that I need to change within mylife to help me get through
these emotions?

SPEAKER_00 (31:07):
Yeah.
I mean, we deal with thispersonally even now, up to this
point with doing the show wherelike Paige, this is your journey
of having to go back and revisitpainful moment after painful
moment after painful moment.
And you've been very real aboutthe fact that there's nothing
easy about that.

SPEAKER_05 (31:24):
Yes, yes.
I've been very open about it.
And whenever I became superoverwhelmed, I went back to my
toolbox.
Like, okay, what am I gonna do?
What do I need to do here?
I'm gonna breathe, I'm gonnatake time off, I'm gonna read,
I'm gonna meditate, I'm gonna dopuzzles, I'm gonna breathe, I'm
gonna do all the groundingtechniques I know.
It didn't work.
It didn't work.

SPEAKER_00 (31:40):
Well, it worked until you got back into the
situation.

SPEAKER_05 (31:42):
Yes, it worked until I got, I slowly started getting
myself back into it.
And I realized that I didn'thave healthy boundaries for
myself surrounding what we do.
Um, and none of the copingmechanisms were going to help me
when I get back in it because mybody's not gonna let me.
I would have literal, like mybody, it was I can tell my mind

(32:06):
all day long, like everything'sokay, you are safe, um, you're
gonna get through this.
It's not that deep for you.
But my body literally does notlisten to my brain.
I would read something that hasnothing to do with any of our
listeners, but something likedirectly towards me.
Um, and I would be very, I wouldgo into that fight or flight
mode.
And that's not something thatit's it just happens.

(32:31):
It's not, what is the word I'mlooking for?
I can't think of what I'mtalking about, can you?

SPEAKER_00 (32:35):
No, I'm thinking, is it just sort of autonomous?

SPEAKER_05 (32:37):
Yes, sort of, it's it it's my body just does it.
It's not anything that I'mchoosing to do.
Like I it's not, it's it'ssubconscious, I guess.
It just automatically happens.
It's like a trigger, it's atrigger.
And you know, I'm like, oh mygosh, I thought I healed from
this.
I thought I got through this.
No, I didn't get through thatbecause I don't have boundaries
surrounding what I do.
And that means that I need totake action and set boundaries

(32:58):
around what we do to make surethat I'm protected and I'm safe.

SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
And and that's sort of a a gentle bridge to the
conversation about sort of thecontent that we make here on a
very regular basis.
We went from making one episodea week to now we're making three
episodes per week.
And we are, we've always said,like our first job is to be
parents.
Um, second, husband and wife.
Third, we've got careers, andthen we have this thing, which
is very important to your lives,to our lives uh in a lot of

(33:23):
ways.
But it's also at the end of theday, it's at the bottom of the
totem pole when it comes to ourpersonal priorities and our own,
our own mental states andemotional states.
And so we're gonna dial back thecontent a little bit, the
cadence of it.
You're still gonna get content,maybe just not as frequent.

SPEAKER_01 (33:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:37):
So maybe you'll get a full episode like these
Wednesday episodes every otherweek.
Maybe you'll get our likeindividual ones on those weeks
that we don't have this one, orsomething like that.
We haven't quite figured it out.
But what we're saying here isthat this is how real this stuff
is to us, is that we know and wepractice it in our own lives.
I would suggest you do the same.
Is that is that when whennothing has changed internally,

(34:00):
your environment is the lastthing you have to look at
changing.
So your amount of exposure tothis sort of thing.
So, like for a lot of people,they will move out of the home
that they're in with this personthat's causing them so much
trouble.
And what they'll find is holyshit, I've never felt this calm.
I forgot what it felt like tofeel this calm.
And, you know, maybe that personmakes changes and then they get

(34:20):
back into that home and thingsare okay.
But if they're not, your body'snot gonna lie to you.
It's not gonna tell you.
So we've been trying to workthrough this very same thing
with this content becauseremember, before we started the
show, we were just like happyhusband and wife living our
lives.
And then we'll go back andrevisit this stuff over and over
and over and over.
And it's different for mebecause I was the one, I was the
offender in a lot of the stuff.
This is also very common becauseit's part of my recovery.

(34:42):
This wasn't part of yourrecovery.
This all this revisiting.
At some point, here's a coolthing about spouses and partners
is at some point, you guys getto move on.
Yes, you get to walk away.
You get to be like, I've learnedfrom it.

SPEAKER_02 (34:55):
I have I've lived that, I've done that.

SPEAKER_00 (34:58):
And now I'm going on to live my fucking life.
Yeah.
Uh, for someone who's dealingwith addiction, it will be a
lifelong process, always to somedegree that you will have to
acknowledge and treat that partof you that wants to use a
substance because you know whathappens when you do.
And I've I've accepted thatmyself.
I don't think that y'all shouldhave to.
Yeah.
And so it's only it's different.

SPEAKER_05 (35:18):
It's different.
The conversations are different.
Like and your recoveryconversations are completely
different than our recoveryconversations.
So um, yeah, I've just with allof this, uh, I've had to
definitely listen to my body,set boundaries, and make changes
where necessary um to take careof myself.
You know, like I know, I knowme, I know my body, I know what

(35:41):
I can handle and what I can't.
And I have to just scale back alittle bit and have those
boundaries.
And that's healthy.
I think that's important.
I think it's important for us.
It's important for me, it'simportant for our kids.
It's important, it's importantfor you guys too, so that you
understand that we live thislife too, and that we are
practicing what we preach.

SPEAKER_01 (35:57):
It'd be rather hypocritical.
Right.
It would.

SPEAKER_05 (35:59):
And it's at a different, it's it's I don't
want to say it's at a differentlevel, but it is kind of at a,
it's a different situation, Iguess I could say, but it's
still a life thing.
Like we talk about life skillsall the time.
The things that you learn likethis right here, it can be
applied within your workenvironment, your parents'
environment, your friendenvironment, your relationship
environment.
So we're utilizing it in our umthis recovery environment, in

(36:22):
our podcasting hobbyenvironment, you know?
And I think that that'simportant.
I think it's important to sharethat with y'all and be
transparent and let you knowwhat we're going through and
that we are practicing what wepreach.
And I feel very clear on thisbased on the episode that we are
discussing today.

SPEAKER_00 (36:36):
Yeah.
So coping can work.
Don't get me wrong.
Like it can work.
It can, it can, you'll you'llsee some massive benefits from
it sometimes.
But sometimes coping can just beflat out avoidance.
Yes.
You can be trying to cope withsomething for so long that
you're avoiding the inevitable,which is generally your worst
fear, which is that in a lot ofcases, I can't I can't be
married to this person anymore.

(36:58):
That's like I think probably theone that's most fitting to this
show.
It could be I have to leave thatjob that's paying me a ton of
money that I cannot fucking dealwith anymore.
I'm gonna have to scale back mylifestyle.
I'm gonna have to change thethings that I aspire to in life
materially anyway.
Um, there are some toughdecisions we have to come to
because at some point coping isjust purely avoidance.

(37:18):
Let's talk about some of those.

SPEAKER_05 (37:20):
Okay, so like relationship tension.
Coping would be to detach orsuppress your emotions.
This happens a lot in thesesituations, you know.
But we have talked about howhaving conversations with those
in active addiction doesn'ttypically work for you, but I
think it's important for you tohave the conversations.

SPEAKER_00 (37:36):
You might have a good conversation, but you're
not going to have a good outcomewith someone in active
addiction.

SPEAKER_05 (37:41):
Exactly.
Because we can teach you how tohave that conversation all day
long.
I think we had an episode on it.
We talk about it in our program.
Um, but the reality is that youneed to have the conversation
and see how it goes and thenmake decisions based on that.
But like coping would be again,detaching or suppressing that
emotion.
And then changing would beinitiating a hard boundary or
conversation.
So having something, likeactually having that

(38:02):
conversation and then likeevaluating it and looking at it
and thinking, okay, well, thisdidn't really go as I wanted.
What do I need to do about itnow?
Right.
Like that's a big thing of withwhat I discuss a lot, is that
okay, you feel how you feel,what are we gonna do about it?
And that's how change is made.
It's like, okay, what can you doabout it?
Because you have a lot morepower than you think.

(38:23):
Um, another situation would beburnout.
So coping would be like bubblebaths, weekends off, which I I
tried to do that as well, likethe weekends off type thing, um,
which is still a boundary ofmine, but I I need to scale it
even more.
But changing would be likeredefining workload or your
values.
And that's definitely somethingthat I've had to do within the
past month is to redefineexactly what it is that we're

(38:45):
doing and um what I can do toscale it back to make sure I am
protected from it.
So that's actually changing.
Coping would be, like I saidearlier, like, you know, just
taking those bubble baths andbreathing.
You know, it just doesn't, it'snot gonna work.
It doesn't work.
Trust me, I tried.
Um, a situation if there aretriggers.
Uh coping would be avoiding thereminder.

(39:07):
So this is kind of interestingthat you popped open that can.

SPEAKER_00 (39:11):
I'm sorry about that again.
I've thought about that fivetimes.
I'm like, why did I fucking dothat?
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 (39:15):
It's no, listen, it's interesting because coping
would be to avoid that.
Okay.
Coping would be to not be aroundcans all the time.

SPEAKER_00 (39:23):
It would be So you're saying I shouldn't go
back and edit that out.

SPEAKER_05 (39:26):
No, because we have to learn, because here's the
thing, and I and I'm not beinginsensitive, I promise.
Trust me, I've been there withtriggers, but you have to change
it.
You have to learn how to processit and integrate, you know, have
it available to you and thenstart just acting differently
and accepting what it is andlooking at it for what it is.
And your body will eventuallycatch up to that.

(39:46):
Like you can't avoid triggersfor the rest of your life.
It's not possible.
It's not healthy to avoidtriggers.
Um, if that was the case, thenwe would probably avoid going
out of our houses consideringthat there is alcohol
everywhere, you know, and youcan't.

SPEAKER_00 (40:01):
There are some people that try to live this
way.
I've heard about them.
I've never actually met one, butI've read their stories online,
um, written but authored bythem, but they will quite
literally try to shelterthemselves from any kind of
alcohol.
Like they'll change the way thatthey go home because there might
be a bar they used to go to,there might be a liquor store.
And I understand like early on,maybe you do some of these

(40:22):
things, but these are people whoare like deep into recovery who
were like years in, but notreally have ever learned how to
cope and process this shit.
Okay.
And to this day, whenever theysee alcohol, if they're
somewhere, they start shaking.
Okay, that's violent.

SPEAKER_05 (40:36):
They haven't really dealt with the underlying issues
on how to process it and dealwith it and manage it.
You can't hide forever, man.
Because let's be real, a a canopening that's not dangerous.
I know that it does lead todangerous situations from you
know in people's minds.

SPEAKER_00 (40:49):
Diet Coke, they say, is pretty bad for you.
It is really bad for you.

SPEAKER_05 (40:51):
And I don't, we're like, y'all, it's weird.
We're on a kick of Diet Coke,and it is unlike us because we
drink water like it's going outof stock.

SPEAKER_00 (40:59):
I still drink a gallon of water.
I just drink a gallon of DietCoke on top of it.

SPEAKER_05 (41:03):
We've been on a Diet Coke kick.
It's really odd.
Um, but in order to change orheal, you really have to deal
with that stuff.
You cannot avoid it forever.
It's just not healthy.
Um, another situation would belike emotional pain, and your
coping would be, oh, stay calm.
Let's journal, let's briefthrough it, let's do all this.
Which, okay, that's that's okay.
Sure.
That's gonna help you in thebeginning.

(41:23):
But you're in order to change orreally heal, you have to make
the life adjustment that iscreating the pain.

SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
You have to get away from the thing that's creating
the pain.

SPEAKER_05 (41:31):
Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (41:32):
End of story.
Like that at the end of the day,like you could do all these
things and you can cope, you canget through some hard times.
But if your life is coping, wehave a problem.
And both of us have lived inthis zone before where your
entire fucking day isessentially coping.
And then at some point yourecognize this is usually long
after you you get really good atcoping, you realize how much

(41:54):
energy it's taking to cope.
And you go, fuck, you know whatI could do.

SPEAKER_04 (41:59):
I could just make a change.
Legit.

SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
But I but what I hate is that someone would hear
that and go, Well, it's notworth coping, then.
No, it is.
It is like those tools are soimportant.
Like that is those are thetools, that's the fabric of life
that really is that to learn howto deal with uncertainty and to
learn how to deal with stress.
But if it's constant and that isall you're doing, like you're
training for the Olympics ofOlympics of coping, you know,

(42:24):
full-time coping artist overhere, that you you have got to
change the environment and thethings that is causing you to
cope.
Yeah, you've got to change that.

SPEAKER_05 (42:31):
You have to solve problems.
That's not solving problems.

SPEAKER_00 (42:34):
No, you're not solving a problem in that
situation.

SPEAKER_05 (42:36):
So I know we've talked a little bit about
self-care and whatnot, but Ikind of want to talk about the
self-care trap, like whenregulation replaces resolution.
Um, I know that there's a lot ofstuff on the internet that
probably talks about self-care,self-care, self-care.
Hell, we talk about self-careall the time.

SPEAKER_01 (42:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (42:52):
But I feel like we dig into it a lot deeper than
what most people think self-careis.

SPEAKER_01 (42:58):
Surface level self-care.

SPEAKER_05 (42:59):
But yes, but it doesn't necessarily equal
healing.
It's problems being solved thatis gonna equal healing.
But like, you know, we tellpeople to breathe and journal
and ground and do all thosethings.
Again, great tools.
But if you're using them totolerate the dysfunction instead
of change it, it's not healing,it's just maintenance.
You're just maintaining, you'rejust like going almost, you're

(43:19):
really just surviving at thatpoint.
It's another level of survivinginstead of thriving.

SPEAKER_01 (43:23):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (43:24):
It's surviving with better tools, right?
You know?
Um, like you can't yoga your wayout of chronic stress caused by,
you know, you being avoidantfrom it, about avoiding it.
It's like, oh, yeah, I wouldlove for you to go to yoga.
I think it's beautiful, it'svery helpful.
It does teach you a lot aboutlife.
But again, it'll only betemporary.
You've got to make some actualchanges within your life.
Um, it just doesn't repair, itdoesn't repair things.

(43:47):
You know, like just taking careof yourself doesn't really
address what the problem is.
That's why I have a problem withit's like just focus on yourself
or just stay in your lane orjust do what you need to do
because you're still not solvingthe actual problem.
You're still just coping.
You're still just dealing withthat one part of yourself when
in reality you've got to dosomething a little bit deeper or

(44:09):
a little heavier.

SPEAKER_00 (44:10):
You know what's interesting, I think, is that
repair is what we all want,right?
We all want repair.
We all want to find a way torekindle what we once had.
And uh it seems like everythingis all the efforts are concerted
toward that, just that onething.
When the reality is that veryfew people will get there.

(44:31):
Very few people will becauseit's really not up to you.
Like we just said, you cannotyou cannot cope your way into
getting someone else sober andhealthy and emotionally mature
and safe.
You can't do that.
You can try.
Good luck.
Let me know how it goes in 20years.
It doesn't work, it just doesn'twork.
And I wonder why there aren'tmore resources for how to leave
a bad relationship, how to leavea toxic situation, how to leave

(44:53):
a toxic boss, how to grieve theloss of what you wanted, how to
just deal with the loss ingeneral.
Like why there aren't moreresources for that?
Because that's really whatpeople need.

SPEAKER_05 (45:02):
Yeah, but we still live in a world where it's like
the goal is to keep therelationship together and uh
healthy, yeah, but unhealthy,no.
The goal is to keep people wholeand safe and make sure that they
are you know safe for theirchildren.

SPEAKER_00 (45:19):
There's a difference between a relationship going
through a rough season and arelationship that has never had
a good one, but you toldyourself it.

SPEAKER_05 (45:26):
Or I mean possibly it did in a short period of
time, but it's probably hasn'tbeen that way in a long, in a
long time.

SPEAKER_00 (45:32):
Yeah.
So what's up?

SPEAKER_05 (45:35):
You want me to keep going?

SPEAKER_00 (45:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (45:36):
Okay.
You're like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (45:39):
It's usually how I go.
Okay, anyway.
Um, so real self-care is askingyou, what do I need to face, not
just soothe?
And I love that because that'sactually giving us the uh option
to make some changes and toactually solve some problems.
And there was this note that Ipulled that said emotional

(46:02):
emotion regulation withoutproblem-focused action doesn't
reduce psych uh physiologicalstress markers long term.
So I was just thinking aboutlike problem-focused action and
taking action or whatnot.
Like, that's what our programdoes.
That's what our community callsdo.
That's why we allow crosstalk.
That's why we allow people tospeak what's on their mind.

(46:23):
Like the problems that aresolved in those calls and those
meetings are amazing.
It's like someone asks, I don'tknow what to do here.
I'm having this situation.
How do I handle this?
And it's not like, okay, youneed to just, you know, go to
the gym or you need to breatheor you need to, you know, do
some present moment awareness.

SPEAKER_00 (46:44):
Focus on you.

SPEAKER_05 (46:44):
Focus, it's it's stay in your legs.
It's it's here's what I did toget through it.
I had to contact a lawyer, I hadto do this, I had to make sure I
had all my ducks aligned.
I had like it's amazing and it'sbeautiful to witness because you
come out of those meetings justfeeling a little bit lighter.
Like, okay, I've actually gotsome action that I can take
today that's gonna benefit melater.

(47:06):
And it's not always big stuff.
Sometimes it's smaller stuff,it's whatever they're dealing
with in the moment.
Um, so anyway, that's just alittle plug within our program
is that we have a 10 moduleonline program that we built
with a licensed therapist.
He's the clinical architect onit.
Um, we talk about how yourrelationship has been impacted.

(47:30):
Um, we have an addiction module,we have trauma bond information,
we have self-care, we haveself-awareness, we have boundary
setting uh exercises.
Uh, should I stay or should Igo?
Communication.
We have so much.
It's so much built into it.
And it's self-paced.
Um, you can I typicallyencourage people to do at least

(47:53):
one module a week if they havethe time.
Um sometimes it's heavy stuff.
Sometimes it's really heavy.
Um, I don't think it gets thereare some parts that aren't super
heavy, but it's still like, oh,this is inf interesting.
And it's stuff that you can usewithin without uh within your
life and not just yourrelationship.
So if you're interested, go toindependentlystrong.com um or
twfo.com and you can check itout there and you get a weekly

(48:16):
call on Wednesdays with otherpeople going through it.

SPEAKER_00 (48:19):
All right, let's go through some examples.

SPEAKER_05 (48:22):
Oh, I'm glad that you saw my note there because I
was just gonna keep going to theother one.
Okay, so let's think, let's lookat some real life examples of
coping versus changing.
I know I mentioned some earlier,but let's think of a
relationship conflict.
So coping would be going silentfor a few days to keep the peace
and pretending that everythingis fine, or maybe you just sit
back there and overanalyze.

(48:43):
Yeah, giving them space, or it'slike, well, you frame it as
frame it as like uh keeping thepeace, you know, like literally.
You're like, I'm not gonna speakhow I feel because it's just
gonna cause problems or itdoesn't matter, and da-da-da.
But changing would be like weneed to talk about what happened
happened and then address thebehavior, even if it's
uncomfortable.
Again, this is very difficultwith somebody in active

(49:03):
addiction.
It doesn't necessarily work, butI do think that it's important
for you to have a conversationwith somebody.
You need to let it out and notsuppress your emotions because
the way you're feeling is howyou feel and it's valid.
So um coping would be just likeshrugging it under the rug.
Like you, you can't do that.
You need to look at it and likeaddress it somehow.

(49:26):
Uh work stress.

SPEAKER_00 (49:27):
Let me do this one.

SPEAKER_05 (49:28):
Oh, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 (49:29):
All right.
Getting through work stress.
You can sit there every morning.
You can journal.
You can make a gratitude listabout why you're grateful for
your job.
You can make a gratitude listabout why it's a privilege, in
fact, not a uh a burden to havethe responsibilities that you
have.
Uh, you can talk about theanxiety caused by your job and
your therapy sessions, you couldhave conversation with
professional coaches andprofessional groups about it,

(49:51):
and you can sit there and uhcontinue to show up every day in
a job that's burning you out andit's sucking your soul dry.
That is like what coping in ajob looks like.
And I speak from experience herebecause I've done that for a
very, very, very long time.
Uh, or you could update yourresume, or you could set
boundaries and um tell your bosswhat you are and are not gonna
do and just see if they fuckingfire you or not.

(50:13):
Um, you could schedule a meetingwith your boss and talk about
your workload and yourexpectations.
Uh, you could advocate foryourself.
And at the very end of the day,the fact of the matter is that
job is not does not need to bepart of your life long term.
End of story.
You are sacrificing yourhappiness for a certain
lifestyle, and that is what itfinally boils down to is that

(50:33):
there's just my happiness and myhealth, and this is the stuff
and all this stuff.
And sometimes you write it out,sometimes you have to write it
out, sometimes you don't have achoice.
I know the economy's tough rightnow.
I wouldn't encourage anyone togo tell their boss to shove it
right now.
Don't get me wrong, but I'veI've been through this and I've
I've coped for a very, very,very long time.

(50:55):
And guess what?
Still miserable, nothing'schanged, still miserable,
nothing's changed, and I cancope all I want, and I'm still
miserable.
I know what has to happenultimately.
It's gonna be a change ofstructure of that position, and
there is a there are things inthe works right now to make that
happen, but it is miserable andit sucks and it doesn't get
better.

SPEAKER_05 (51:11):
But it took you a long time to understand that
like there are changes that dohave to be.

SPEAKER_00 (51:15):
Oh, dude, I didn't come to terms with this in the
matter of how long is thisepisode now?
52 minutes?
Try multiples of 52 weeks.
It's taken me.

SPEAKER_03 (51:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, you threw an F-bomb inthere.
You haven't thrown one of thosein a while.

SPEAKER_00 (51:30):
I've been trying to get better about that.

SPEAKER_05 (51:31):
That means that you're serious about it.

SPEAKER_00 (51:32):
I was honest.

SPEAKER_05 (51:33):
Okay, so I'm gonna talk about parenting overwhelm.
There's a lot I was honest.
Are you not honest most of thetime?

SPEAKER_00 (51:38):
That's just when it's just you're me, man.
There's an F-bomb in that's it.

SPEAKER_04 (51:43):
No, you really haven't been.

SPEAKER_00 (51:44):
I've been trying to get better about it because
seriously, and then I'm the onein the background.

SPEAKER_04 (51:48):
I go, I'll be saying all the bad words.
I'm like, I need to do betterabout this.
I've even talked to our um thesupport group about that.
I'm like, yeah, I need to kindof chill on that, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 (51:59):
There were clips where I was I would have to mute
so much stuff because I'm justcussing and I'm like, oh, that's
not that's not class.
There's no class in that, man.
Come on now.
Honest or not, I I can I have abigger vocabulary than that.

SPEAKER_02 (52:12):
Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 (52:13):
There is power in a well-placed F-bomb.

SPEAKER_02 (52:16):
Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 (52:17):
It just can't be all the time.
No, because then it's justtrashy.

SPEAKER_05 (52:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ooh, I felt called out on that,but that's okay.
That wasn't for you, that's forme.
I'll work on that.
Well, you're the one who taughtme how to talk like that.
Let's think about it.

SPEAKER_00 (52:28):
Oh, it was me.
It's my fault.

SPEAKER_05 (52:30):
Let's think about this.
Really?
You work in the truckingindustry.

SPEAKER_00 (52:33):
That's true.

SPEAKER_05 (52:34):
Okay.
And your family, when I speakingfirst, when I first, okay, we're
getting off topic, but this is astory.
When I first met your family andI was around them, the F bomb
was everywhere.
There was shit, there was F,there was G D, there was
everything.
And I was just like, I neverheard my mom say that F word.
Like we my parents would saydamn, they would say hell.
She would throw shit aroundsometimes.

(52:55):
I think I heard her say it onetime behind closed doors growing
up.
And I I don't rememberspecifically what she was
talking about, but I rememberher saying that.
And I was like, so when I metyour family, like even you kids
were saying it.
And I'm like, I uh red flag,apparently, guys.
Like, there's another one ofthose red flags.

SPEAKER_00 (53:15):
No, they say it's a sign of intelligence, I think.

SPEAKER_05 (53:18):
Okay, so honestly, like I picked up on that over
the years, and and now I do itso much, and I'm like, that's
actually not me and who I likeam to the core.
Like, I'm actually well, and nowI am.

SPEAKER_06 (53:33):
I mean, I've been trained that way.
You know, it's true.

SPEAKER_00 (53:37):
Getting blamed for one more thing.

SPEAKER_06 (53:39):
I'm not blaming you.
I'm just saying that I wasdefinitely influenced.
Influenced is more than fair.
I was influenced.

SPEAKER_00 (53:44):
More than fair.

SPEAKER_06 (53:45):
Yeah, I don't want to say blame.
I have a I have a choice.

SPEAKER_00 (53:47):
You could have kept being Miss Cleaver if you wanted
to.
You're right.

SPEAKER_06 (53:50):
I could have.

SPEAKER_05 (53:50):
Well, the peer pressure was real with this one.
Okay.
Anyway, let's go into parentingoverwhelm.
Let's say that you um arestaying up late scrolling to
decompress after the kids go tobed.
Like that's a way of coping, butyou're not really changing
anything.
It's not going to help with youbeing overwhelmed.
Um, in order to change, youshould probably create a bedtime

(54:12):
routine for yourself.
Um, maybe ask for help orrenegotiating responsibilities
with your partner if you have apartner who's able to do that.
Um, but basically, change has tohappen.
We can't just like sit there anddecompress.

SPEAKER_00 (54:25):
Pause.
There is a period in a kid'slife where all you do is cope.
And it's about five years longfrom the time that they're born
to the time they're about fiveand they start going to school.
Hold on for dear life and copeas best you can.
I do agree.
It doesn't get any better.

SPEAKER_04 (54:37):
No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 (54:38):
Like in that period of time, I've remember looking
at each other and being like,well, do we just suck at this?
Like, this is horrible.

SPEAKER_05 (54:43):
I don't remember much of it.
It was a blur, but I telleverybody it's the first five
years of your kids' lives.
Like you've you're just hangingout.

SPEAKER_00 (54:50):
And then it starts over again when they're
teenagers, kind of.

SPEAKER_05 (54:52):
I think that's where we're at.

SPEAKER_00 (54:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (54:54):
Yeah.
So that's fun.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (54:57):
Um asking for help goes a long way though.

SPEAKER_05 (55:00):
Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_00 (55:01):
But you shouldn't necessarily.
No, I'm thinking about in ahealthy dynamic where it's like
we're both making efforts andit's like, hey, I I'm just
overwhelmed right now.
Can you take some of the slack?
Yeah, bro.
I got you.

SPEAKER_05 (55:14):
Yeah, like we're able to ask those.

SPEAKER_00 (55:15):
Uh I'm not talking about one parent that's carrying
the burden of it all and thenfeeling like they have to like
some like you know, beingpitiful, asking for help that
they should be getting anyway.
I'm not talking about that.
We've had combos about that inrelationship or in discussions
about that.
I think we did it with Celesteuh in the mental load of
motherhood.

SPEAKER_06 (55:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:35):
Talked about that.
That's not what I'm talkingabout.

SPEAKER_06 (55:36):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (55:37):
Talking about like if you were struggling right now
and you're like, hey, can youcan you run them to the dance
studio because I'm just like Ican't.
Totally.
I got you.

SPEAKER_05 (55:45):
Yeah, we got each other in that.

SPEAKER_00 (55:46):
And I could ask you to take in baseball or
something.

SPEAKER_05 (55:48):
Yeah.
Same for sure.
It's mutual respect there.
Okay, emotional neglect in arelationship.
So coping would be listening topodcasts about this, I guess.
Um, staying busy and tellingyourself you're fine alone.
Like basically, like getting allof the information, but not
really taking the informationand doing something with it.

(56:08):
Right.
So you can educate yourself allday long about it and then
you're not really thank you.
I was you were reading my mindbecause I was gonna ask you for
one.

SPEAKER_00 (56:16):
Um what were you on about?

SPEAKER_05 (56:19):
I was saying that before you got distracted with
the candy.

SPEAKER_04 (56:21):
I don't know, because I'm like, I really
wanted a piece of candy.

SPEAKER_05 (56:24):
Uh again, it's just like education, educating
yourself and not taking action.
Like, are you really utilizingthe tools that are being
provided by the things that youread or you listen to?
Um, and just kind of tellingyourself, like, I'm just gonna
do this alone.
It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 (56:38):
Like this, this this show very well could be that
thing for you as you're sittinghere and it's more or less like
mental masturbation about whatneeds to change rather than just
taking action to change.

SPEAKER_02 (56:50):
Possibly.

SPEAKER_00 (56:51):
You could just listen and listen and listen and
listen, but nothing's going tochange until you take action.

SPEAKER_02 (56:55):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (56:56):
And that's and I've I've listened I listened to
business podcasts for as long asI could possibly stand it before
you actually take it.
I finally got the balls to dosomething about it.

SPEAKER_05 (57:05):
No, it's true.

SPEAKER_00 (57:06):
I did it for years.

SPEAKER_05 (57:07):
Yeah, I know.
And I think that I've I've donethe same thing too, like even
with our stuff.
I I took it in, but I didn't andI've utilized some of it and
I've applied some of it, but I'mhaving to apply it in different
parts of my life.
So it's making it a little bitmore difficult or complicated, I
guess.

SPEAKER_01 (57:23):
For sure.

SPEAKER_05 (57:23):
But yes, I had taken it in a lot more without taking
action, and now I'm finallytaking action.
So it just kind of like it'slike a train, you know.
You you um you can start goingand then you just have to wait
until it like catches up orwhatever.
I don't know.
Um, but changing in this part,if like if there's emotional
neglect in your relationship,you naming your needs directly
and deciding what you'll do ifthey continue to go unmet is

(57:45):
part of changing.
Um, I had to do this.
I had a tough conversation withMatt regarding this and what we
were just talking about earlier.
Um, instead of me just likebeing angry about it or just
letting it slide or not sayinganything or telling myself that
it's okay, I'm just gonna dealwith it.
I actually had a very important,meaningful, direct, intimate

(58:07):
conversation about how I need, Ineed something, I need space, I
need something to change, youknow, and it was scary.
It's like, oh, I don't know howthis is gonna go.
How are we gonna do this orwhatever?
But I'm like, I'm in a saferelationship.
I shouldn't be afraid to saythese things.

SPEAKER_00 (58:21):
And and how did it go?

SPEAKER_05 (58:22):
And it went great.
It went really well.
I feel like I have released alot.
Now I know this doesn't, if itdoesn't go great within your
relationship or if they're likereally not respecting you and
your boundaries and it'sdeflective and it's like a very
difficult conversation to have,and you feel unsafe and you feel
worse than when you were in it,that's a sign to do something

(58:43):
about it.
That you were not in a safespace to where you can have open
conversations about things.
Um, nothing's gonna change ifyou don't just like if you don't
change or if you don't have aconversation.
So we had these conversations,it went great.
I was scared, but I was like,I'm much lighter now that it did
happen.
But I'm grateful that I havesomebody who is there to hear me

(59:04):
out.
And it's not like he'snecessarily validating, like
we're taking action, like you'rereally listening and being there
for me and other other wayaround.
Like it was just a productiveconversation.
That's what intimacy is.
That's what you know, beingemotionally connected is is
being able to have conversationsthat are really hard, um, where
you fear how the outcome isgonna what the outcome is gonna

(59:27):
be, but you do it anyway becauseyou know where you stand and
however they react, it doesn'tmatter.
You know where you stand andwhat you need to do to go
forward.
So if you would have respondedto me the opposite, the
opposite, I would still have todo what I said I was doing.

SPEAKER_00 (59:42):
It would just suck more.

SPEAKER_05 (59:43):
And it would suck it would suck way more because I
would not have the support of mypartner, which is like what you
want from your partner.
Like you, I I feel like I feellike I've really had so much
I've supported him through a lotof things.
Um I may have my opinions onsomething.
Things, but I've always beenvery supportive of the things
that he does and I allow himthat space.

(01:00:05):
And if he needs to take time orwhatever he needs to do, go for
it.
I I respect you for that.
Um, but if it would have gone adifferent way, I would have
definitely it would have beenway more challenging.
So, and I know a lot of ourlisteners, it's very hard to
have difficult conversationswith your loved one.
But if that's the case, thatmeans that something needs to
change and no coping, you know,mechanism is gonna get you
through that.
No, it'll just help buildyourself up, but you just have

(01:00:27):
to be very um aware of whatyou're going through.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:31):
Right.
Uh financial stress is anotherone.
Uh, if you are someone that getsum a lot of joy out of
purchasing things, like thereare a lot of people, you know.
I've looked at creditdelinquencies and credit usage,
and it's actually down the mostrecent quarter, but how accurate
is that data, even?
I don't know where it's comingfrom.
But um, there are a lot ofpeople who who cope that way.

(01:00:52):
Um, and you can pretend likeyour bank account doesn't exist
and just deal with it tomorrowand spend, spend, spend.
And uh ultimately the you'regonna have to pay the piper uh
at some point.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:03):
Catch up to you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:04):
What would change is if you actually sit down and go
through your numbers, and it'sgonna be a very humbling and
sombering night when you sitthere and you go through that
stuff, you make a budget and youface the anxiety head on.
That's what change actuallylooks like.
It's creating a budget foryourself.
I think everyone's been therebefore with their finances, you
know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:20):
We did this a few years ago.
It was fun.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:22):
I don't know about fun.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:24):
I thought it was, but I love numbers and it's it's
enlightening.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:27):
It's always enlightening, you know, because
no one likes to really thinkabout it.
Um, especially when you're goingthrough shit, because it is a
way that we get relief.
Um you know, there's somethingto be said about this for the
reason they call it retailtherapy, because that's it feels
like it provides us somethinglike that, but it's it's not
always the best, especially whenyou know you have finite

(01:01:49):
finances, it's limited.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:50):
It's man, retail therapy is only temporary.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:53):
Like a lot of people.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:54):
It's literally like a drug or an alcohol.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:56):
Like you're sometimes it feels good.
Don't get me wrong.
Don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:00):
Yeah, and I've I've done it occasionally.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:02):
Oh, we bought a pizza oven.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:03):
Oh, yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:04):
Still super excited.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:05):
We did, I'm excited about that.
But we're still pretty mindful.
Like we don't go crazy and wetalk about our purchases too.
But um if you're avoiding,that's coping.
If you're sitting down andactually looking at your stuff,
that's changing and healing andgoing through the product
process.
Um social media burnout.
Yeah.

(01:02:26):
Um, so coping would be takingshort breaks or deleting the app
for a week.
I encourage people to do that alot.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:32):
All the time.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:33):
All the time.
But guess what?

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:35):
It doesn't always work.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:37):
You still have to get down like you know what does
work though is an app that I'veforgotten to use.
We've used screens in and thenbrick.
It works.
It literally just keeps you offof it.
You will find other things tooccupy your time with, setting a
daily limit for yourself, justlike we do for our kids.
Um, or like if I I don't knowwhy we do this.
I've been guilty of this in thepast, is that we follow accounts
that are triggering.

(01:02:58):
Whether this is politics or it'ssomething from a controversial
creator, but following accountsthat trigger us, like, why do we
do that shit?

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:05):
Are you talking about us?
No, in general?

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:07):
Us, the oh, just the population.
Okay, gotcha.
Right.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
People, like, why do we do this?
To I I don't know, but unfollowthat shit.
It doesn't exist.
Like it doesn't change the factthat stuff is out there, but the
way in which they frame it isdesigned to get a rise out of
you so you engage with it.
And you're they get paid whenyou do that, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:26):
Right, they do.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:27):
They get paid every time I see someone angry in
someone else's comments.
I'm like, they're getting paidby this.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:31):
Right, you're just fueling them.
They don't even give a fuck.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:33):
They're trolling most of the time.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:35):
Most of the time it's rage bait.
So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:37):
Hey, rage bait's a business now.
Don't be fooled, man.
Stop doing it, they stop gettingpaid.
But yeah, um, give yourself abreak from social media, man.
This shit can be bad.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:46):
Yeah.
I mean, or yeah, get off if youhave to.
Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:50):
Um, this is something I've tried in the past
too, is uh burnout recovery.
So, like from my job, I went, II uh I tried to resign a couple
of years ago, or was it lastyear?
I think it was last year.
I tried to resign.
I'm done.
Here's my date.
No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:07):
That's two years ago.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:07):
No, we can't lose you.
Don't do that.
Take a month off.
And I remember coming home andbeing like, they told me to take
a month off.
And Paige was like, Well, that'skind of cool.
It doesn't fix anything.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:19):
Not what I said.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:21):
It doesn't fix anything.
That's where we were at.
It's like, should we just takeit?

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:25):
Like, all this is is allowing you like to stay
longer.
It's just a breadcrumb of like,here, this is what I can give
you.
If you just keep going.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:33):
If you return to the same routine, it's going to end
up in the same abject failure.
And it that is true.
You have got to redesign yourschedule, your um which is what
we've done here.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:45):
That's what we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:46):
You have to whatever it is, saying no to commitments
that just absolutely drain you.
You have to learn how todelegate things, uh, redefine
what being productive actuallymeans.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:55):
That's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:56):
Whatever, you know, there's a million ways.
We can do this with emotionalpain too.
This is a really, really commonone where um we can I've I've
done this and I'm guilty ofthis.
We can over-spiritualize things.
Uh, acceptance is the answer forone.
Um, you know, a lot of peoplekind of reframe that in another
way, like everything happens fora reason, instead of admitting
that like that's a reallyhurtful, shitty thing, and that

(01:05:18):
just sucks.
And just sitting in the suck.

SPEAKER_05 (01:05:21):
I I did this for a long period of time, and I've
actually come to the realizationrecently that I would uh justify
or rationalize things this way,um, instead of just saying, you
know what, this hurt me.
And if you say it like that,like you're able to process it
more whenever you say, This hurtme.
Um you have to allow yourself togrieve or get angry um or you

(01:05:44):
know, set new boundaries thatprevent that harm to being
repeated.
That's why I have a problem withsome things saying, like, oh,
you can't be angry.
You can't, it's like, guys, likewe're we're meant to be angry.
We're supposed to be angry.
Like it's literally telling ussomething.
We just need to do somethingabout it.
So if we rationalize and justifyevery emotion that's negative we
have and saying, oh, this ishappening for a reason, you're

(01:06:06):
not gonna get through it andyou're not gonna process it.
It's gonna come out in otherways.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:09):
Yeah, and we can sometimes cope with boundaries
too.
We can kind of like beat aroundthe bush with boundaries.
We can say, Oh, look, I haveboundaries, but if you don't
enforce those boundaries, itwhat are they really?
It's sort of like a copingmechanism in some ways.
Like you are saying, oh, it'sfine.
When we know damn well it's notfine, that's not okay.
Like you stepped over a boundaryof mine.

(01:06:30):
And so what do you do?
You go vent to your friendsabout it.
I know that I've been guilty ofthis as a manager before.
I know that uh you probably haveto if you're managing people.
It's like, this motherfucker didX, Y, Z.
And the question's always, well,did you tell them that's not
okay?
Do I really have to say that?
Like, who wouldn't know?
But you do.
You would be shocked.
You do.

(01:06:50):
You have to be firm with somepeople about things.
And you have to have that.
That's why you get paid the whatyou get paid.
You have to have those toughconversations with people.
You have to have boundaries.
This is the same thing inrelationships.
You can't just say it's okay ifit's not, and then complain
about it without actuallyenforcing the boundary and
having the tough conversation,having that confrontation,
whatever it is to advocate foryourself and your boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:13):
Ooh, that was good.
I like that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:15):
Yeah, it's that's a tough one, man.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:17):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:17):
So they all these I think we've we've gone through
differences between coping andchanging.
And I hope that you can start tosee like what we're getting at
is that you can cope and youshould learn how to cope.
And coping is a valuable skillfor finding peace.
It is a valuable skill inmaturity.
It's a valuable skill inspirituality.
This is a valuable skill thatyou will need in pretty much

(01:07:40):
every single aspect of yourlife.
Because if life is guaranteedanything, it's uncertainty.
And there will be things thatcome up that you've never dealt
with before, and you will needthose skills to learn how to get
through the other side and topersevere and be resilient.
But I hope you know thedifference that you can't cope
forever.
And there is such a thing asputting an end to coping by just
simply changing your environmentor your circumstances.

(01:08:02):
There is a there's a difference.
And I hope that you know whatthat looks like, and I hope that
you know that we are trying tobe respectful to your situation,
understanding that we don't knowwhat you're going through right
now and that you have reasonsfor what you you do, what you
do, but allow us to challengeyou on some of those reasons.
Allow us to challenge yourreasons respectfully, gently,
lovingly as you look at am Icoping to cope when I could

(01:08:26):
really just change something andjust do away with all this
nonsense that I spend my hoursof my day doing.
Because what I would hate to dois rob anybody of the valuable
skills that both of us havelearned in overcoping.
But I would also hate to keepyou stuck forever in a situation
that we know everyone knowsyou'd be happy with outside of.
So it's it's nuanced, right?

(01:08:46):
It's what we do here.
Uh, we have these non black andwhite conversations.
These are very gray, and it'ssort of that that that weird
shade in between the twooutcomes.
Uh, I hope that you get theexperience of of learning to
cope.
I hope that you get to use it.
And then I hope at some pointyou also get to see when it's
too much, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:04):
Yeah.
I like how you said that it's acoping is a way of finding
peace, but I would say it's nota way of keeping peace.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:10):
Oh, that's a good one.
I like that.
That's a bumper sticker.
All right.
That's all we've got, y'all.
We appreciate it.
Uh again, keep an eye out forwhat we decide to do with our
own boundaries with the show andeverything else, and how often
we're going to be releasingcontent.
And we appreciate all thesupport we've got.
Both of us have talked aboutburnout here lately, and we've
got nothing but support aboutit.

(01:09:31):
Take care of yourselves.
Uh, we love you guys, but youhave to take care of yourselves.
Like, we love, we love you guysso much.
Like we appreciate that.
We have the most unreasonablyreasonable listeners and fans,
and just thank you guys for forfor letting us feel like we can
be human too in this.
As much as you guys may enjoythis stuff, understand that
we're humans and uh that we needthat.

(01:09:52):
And so we're gonna make someadjustments, as we've just
talked about, because we can'tcope anymore.
At some point, we have to make achange.
And so we're going to startsmall with the changes and then
go from there and see how wefeel.
Yes.
And and we'll let we'll we'llalways been transparent with you
guys.
We'll keep you in the loop.
We'll keep you apprised of anydecisions that we end up making
and understand that we reservedirect to change our minds, and
that could change tomorrow.
But we don't know what thatlooks like yet.

(01:10:13):
We'll keep you in the loop andwe love you.
And until next time, I'm Matt.
I'm Paige.
And we'll see you.

SPEAKER_05 (01:10:19):
Bye.

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#262 - Are You Coping or Are You Healing?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#262 - Are You Coping or Are You Healing?