Ep 123: How to Tell Stories that Sell with Kendall Cherry

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Kendall Cherry, founder and executive ghostwriter of The Candid Collective, joins us to crack open the secrets of storyselling in B2B marketing. With Kendall's expertise, we explore how each piece of content can double as a compelling sales tool, creating a magnet for the right audience while gently pushing away those who aren't a fit. Discover how embedding sales skills into your writing can transform casual posts into powerful sales catalysts and how ghostwriting is evolving, especially on platforms like LinkedIn.

Engage with us as we navigate the subtle art of weaving offers into stories, highlighting the transformative power of client case studies and the authenticity of "money-making testimonials." We tackle the unique challenges faced by minority business owners, such as visibility fears and profit dilemmas, and show how sharing real client successes can build trust and pull potential clients in. Alongside, we discuss organic lead generation, the art of client vetting, and the value of creating a sales ecosystem that minimizes traditional sales calls.

Lastly, we bring you insights on building a timeless marketing machine, emphasizing consistency and authenticity in business. Learn how to craft personalized sales processes that resonate with your natural lifestyle, while nurturing leads to create meaningful client relationships. Through storytelling, we uncover the potential of origin stories and the importance of maintaining a consistent business approach. Join us as we transform storytelling into a strategic, self-sustaining marketing powerhouse.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Tiny Marketing.
This is Sarah Noelle Block, andthis is a podcast that helps
B2B service businesses do morewith less.
Learn lean, actionable, organicmarketing strategies you can
implement today.
No fluff, just powerful growthtactics that work.
Ready to scale smarter?
Hit that subscribe button andstart growing your business with

(00:20):
tiny marketing.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello everyone, welcome to the tiny marketing
show.
I'm Sarah Noelle Block and thisis episode 123.
Today I have Kendall Cherrytalking about how you can create
stories that sell for you.
In the last couple of episodes,we've been talking a lot about
selling In episode what it was.

(00:45):
Two episodes ago episode 121,we talked about how to sell
without using social media andthen in 122, we talked about how
to sell in the DMs and insocial media.
So the complete opposite.
And today we're talking abouthow to sell in every story that

(01:06):
we tell.
So we're on a little sellingbinge right now.
Today I want you to really digin and understand how every
piece of content should sell foryou.
You should be able to tie inyour offer to whatever story
you're telling.
And another takeaway that Ithink that you're going to get

(01:34):
from this is the importance ofattraction and repelling.
So a lot of us come from thisstate of mind where it's really
difficult when someone doesn'tlike us.
But when you own a business Imean when you're human in
general not everyone's going tolike you.
You're just, you're a personlike the rest of us and not
everyone's going to vibe withyou.
And not everyone vibes with mefor sure.

(01:55):
Just look at my comments.
But the thing is intentionallyattracting and repelling.
By using your transformationalpromises, your messaging, your
stories, who you work with inthe right way, you're going to
pull in the right people andrepel those red flags right from

(02:17):
your content.
And then, last, I really wantyou to understand how a
well-designed sales ecosystemeliminates the needs for sales
calls.
So by the end of this episode,you're going to understand how
to sell without having to hop ona call beforehand.
So I hope you enjoyed and, ifyou did, once you're done with

(02:41):
this episode it's a long one, bythe way Kendall and I really
vibed.
Once you're done with thisepisode it's a long one, by the
way Kendall and I really vibed.
Tell me in the comments,wherever you're listening or
watching this.
There are comments there, solet me know what you learned
from this.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
All right, enjoy.
Hey, so I'm Kendall Cherry.
I am the founder and executiveghostwriter here at the Candid
Collective and we're on amission to create a world that's
more candid and kind.
So most of my clients and justpeople on the internet they're
always asking me, like, whatdoes a ghostwriter do?
And I think the marketing worldis changing a lot the more we
see things transform with AI.

(03:16):
But to me, ghostwriting is kindof the sweet spot of writing,
copy writing content.
But to me, in kind of themodern world, ghostwriting is
really about sales skills andhow to write content that closes
B2B sales, especially if you'resomewhere like LinkedIn, and so
that is kind of my specialsauce.
When it comes to the writingwhere it's kind of this fun, you

(03:38):
know, it's subliminal it's likeis she selling, is she not?
But you would never know this.
But I have this personal rulewhere I'm like every post has to
be selling, even if it doesn'tsound like I'm selling Me too.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
It's so rare.
Yes, I figured it was so rarethat I meet people who agree
with that.
Why would you write anythingthat doesn't at least like nod
to your offer?
Let's go.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Let's go there, go, let's go there, let's go there.
I think, oh, I don't know, Ihave so many like hot takes on
this, but let's hear all of yourhot takes.
Let's hear all of them.
I just hear man come andswinging right out the gate, the
kindle cherry way.
I just think that a lot oftimes people right now,
especially in the like creatoreconomy, is so like the sexy
buzzword and you know, buildingan audience and monetizing and

(04:24):
all these things and monetizingcontent, which is great but I
think that when we're writingcontent, all of these courses
that people buy from big namecreators, they're always talking
about the writing.
Not once have I ever seen acourse that's like.
These are the sales skills thatyou need to have in your
writing in order to close salesfor content that converts.

(04:45):
It doesn't exist, it's notthere, you're right.
And I see all these people thatare like, yeah, I'm showing up,
I'm writing, and I swear this islike a real example, because I
get really fiery on LinkedInbecause I know the implications
if you're not selling, yourbusiness can't stay in business.
And that's just the cold, hardtruth.

(05:05):
And I just remember looking inDecember, I was scrolling and
someone was like on LinkedInthey posted a selfie with a car
seat which with a bunch ofCheerios in their back seat, and
they were like this is whatthese Cheerios taught me about
B2B sales.
And I'm like, oh what, what arewe doing here?
What are we doing?
And so it's, it's there's somany things to unpack, but it's,

(05:27):
I think they're I don't know.
It's like digital marketers.
A lot of times you know we'reso focused on the content, but
like marketing is really andtruly, like it's a signal.
But sales is the message,that's, that's the wording that
goes out and I think so manypeople are afraid to sell or
there's, there's much to impactthere.
But that's my first.
My first hot take is I don'tknow, create our creator courses

(05:50):
teaching you how to sell orthey teaching you how to write.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
I don't know.
They're teaching you how towrite, absolutely, because I, as
, like, my formal education isin writing and marketing and
I've only ever learned how towrite and it just came through
being a marketer and onlyactually scratch that.

(06:13):
Because I was in marketing forlike 10 or maybe 15 years before
I started my business andselling wasn't even really on my
radar until I had to sell formy own business and I was like,
well, I really need to figureout how to do this.
And that's when I was like Idon't have time to separate
these worlds, it needs toconnect.

(06:35):
And that is the only, out ofnecessity, is the only reason
that I realized I should alwaysbe selling.
Every piece of content shouldlead to an offer.
Let's talk about that selling,that subliminal selling, because
I like that.
You talked about that.
I always talk about like subtleselling, nod to selling, soft
selling, and it's really justlike weaving in your offers into

(06:59):
stories.
Can you tell me how you do thatand how other people can
emulate it?

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, so I have a few like story frameworks that I
really like to lean on whichspoiler alert they're rooted in
sales, not in writing, butthere's a few few story that I
think work really really well.
The biggest one that I see thatthere's a lot of like
subconscious, like discomfort,because I think a lot of times

(07:24):
it's it's different.
I get a lot of clients that Iwork with I think a lot of times
it's different.
I get a lot of clients that Iwork with where they're like I
used to work, you know, decadesin tech sales or whatever else.
They understand sales.
They understand like to own abusiness that runs on sales.
You have to sell, like they getthe basics, yeah.
And then there's like a weirdthing that happens when you're
like but I have to sell myselfand I have to like it is right

(07:46):
about myself and you're likewait, no, no, no, no, and it
goes against everything.
You know that we're taught.
I will say I also write forprobably 95 minority business
owners, so women, people ofcolor, lgbtq or some kind of
intersectional.
This is like one of the biggestbehaviors I see.
Is this like fear of visibility, fear of accepting money,

(08:09):
wanting to do good, authenticityand integrity are some of the
biggest values that my customerstend to have.
And so there's this big like.
I don't know.
It's like this big moral battle, honestly, internally, of like
well, if I make money, am I abad person?
Moral battle honestly,internally, of like, well, if I
make money, am I a bad person?
And it's like no, you can usemoney as a tool for many, many,

(08:29):
many things.
But I think the one story thatpeople get wrong and it's
hitting right on the like am Igoing to brag?
I've got to be humble.
It is I call it a money makingtestimonial, but it's basically
your client case study.
It is I call it a money-makingtestimonial, but it's basically
your client case study.
It's.

(08:49):
This is the client and thetransformation.
This is the before and after.
This is what happened.
This is how I saw the problemand how I solved it.
And ew the part everyone hates.
What are the results?
It might look like revenue wins, it might look like time saved
or other areas of a UVP, butit's those stories that people
want to see mirrored beforethey're going to invest in you,
especially if you're sellinganything remotely high ticket.

(09:11):
So that one.
It's like.
I see people on LinkedIn andthey're like five stars, photo
of the client, copy paste,testimonial, and I'm like you're
making the customer do so muchwork trying to interpret the
value, versus you just tellingthem the transformation.
So, yeah, that's usually thethe one I see the most from
anytime.
I see the five gold stars onlinkedin, I'm like, oh god, like

(09:33):
what are?

Speaker 2 (09:35):
we doing here?
Yeah, no, I'm with you.
So the topic that you hadcalled out was the top five
selling story frameworks and Ihave used this one that you're
talking about and you're right,and it's actually worked on me.
I started using it because Iwas like, oh damn, it's bottom

(09:56):
of the funnel sales baby.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
It's bottom of the funnel.
I can track because I do it nowlike clockwork.
I have a rule every two weeksit's going on LinkedIn.
Once a month it's going to myemail list.
I can track.
When I send one of those, we'vegot inquiries coming through
like it's almost, almost likeclockwork because it's it's the
bottom of the funnel selling.

(10:18):
But you have to kind of likeface your own demons and your
own fears of like oh, but youknow, I don't want to be too
raggy and I sometimes hearpeople too They'll say like you
know, I don't want to use myclient's story, or it has to be
anonymous.
Most of the clients I tell thestory about they're like please
tell this story.
This is crazy.
You made me like a ton of money, like I want you to, I want you

(10:39):
to tell my story, or they wintime back, or they win time with
their kids, like I don't know.
Those are the things mostpeople are actually really
excited that you got to partnerwith them.
But there's this like weirdAgain it's.
It's kind of I don't know ifit's a confidence thing or a
visibility thing, but it's oneof the most important parts of
of the storytelling that I thinkwe need to be sharing.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, yeah, I get where they're coming from.
I feel uncomfortable, likecalling out specific clients.
I'll usually change their namewhen I'm telling the story.
I don't.
I don't want them feeling likeI'm monetizing their experience
and maybe that's just like justask their permission.
Yeah, can I?
Can I write this story aboutyou?
That's, that's the biggestthing I've learned is like any
time because I used to havepeople like screenshotting ask

(11:22):
their permission.

Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah, just say, hey, can I, can I write this story
about you?
That's a.
That's the biggest thing I'velearned is like anytime, because
I used to have people likescreenshotting like holy shit,
and they'd share stuff and belike can I, can I share this
with?
Like the context and I thinkthat's the the big thing is we
live in this like very um, let'ssay like highlight real world.
We don't know if you know, isit all-time revenue?

(11:43):
Is it like some numbers youinflate?
yeah, there's no way yeah, andso it's, and so it's this again.
It's kind of this fear of like,well, I want to be an integrity
, so I'm not going to do it atall.
That's.
That's not the answer.
So I always say, like you know,ask for permission.
If you really feeluncomfortable, like, send it to
your client to approve before itgoes out and then add it to
your library.

(12:03):
It's to me it's worth theinvestment to have, like, have
it written, have it approved bysomeone.
If that's something that makesyou uncomfortable, but the
visibility is so much moreimportant because it's it's not
just about, like, how much moneyyou could make, but if you do
deeply transformational work,which we all do, like those are
other clients that you could behelping if you can, if you're

(12:25):
comfortable with getting thestory out there, the money is
just like the extra on top yeah,yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
and I want to add calling out their niche or like
who they are in that post helpsa lot too, because then other
people that are within thatniche or that role can be like
oh, oh, that's me, that could beme.

Speaker 3 (12:48):
Totally.
Yeah, people, I think a lot oftimes your customers like
sometimes, especially withhigher ticket stuff, sometimes
they just need permission thatit's okay for them to invest in
you, even if it's like number ofyears in business, whatever
levels of nuance you can includebackground, you know.
Know.
This is why the before pictureis so important, not just the

(13:09):
after, but like really uniquepicture so it's universal enough
.
People really like, if if I'mgoing to invest a lot of money,
like I want to know that it'sI'm going to get the outcome
that I want, and I also want tosee it interpreted in more than
just a sales page.
I don't want to just be like,okay, pinpoint one, two, three,
four, five.
Like I want to see the story,the richness, the nuance to

(13:31):
understand.
Like, like, paint me a picture.
What does this actually looklike?
Vision cast for me, Like, isthis even something that I want?
Or would there be anotherprovider that could maybe, you
know, do something a little bitdifferent that I'm looking for?
But like you win all the wayaround, whether it's qualifying
leads, disqualifying leads,attracting, repelling, it kind

(13:51):
of serves every function in themarketing department.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, people underestimate the value of
repelling because you're on alot less sales calls that go
nowhere.
Well, my gosh.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yeah.
So I don't even like really geton sales calls very much
anymore.
It is pretty rare for mebecause my content and the
ecosystem is kind of selling forme all the time.
So, whether it's on LinkedIn orthe emails that we have my
services guide, I've got thisreally great ecosystem where I
don't, first off, I don't haveto get on sales calls and pretty

(14:25):
much any inquiry that's comingthrough I'm like, yep, I can
help them, I can help them.
I typically don't even reallyreject people at this point and
if I do, it's someone where I'mlike, okay, you're not quite
where I need you to be, go readthis book and then we'll be
ready.
But it's the repelling thing.

(14:47):
It's like I I don't want to usemy energy like repelling people
because I do want to help, butI I just need you to be in a
certain either like mental spaceor like level of business
comfort.
Your offer has to be at acertain place or, if you're
going to hire me to fix it, knowthat it's going to be an
investment.
But um, yeah, the repelling issuch a huge.
It's definitely one of one ofthe better revenue generating

(15:09):
like areas.
If you can can kind of amp thatup in your, your content as
well yeah, and I think that itprobably flips people on their
head.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
They're like wait, telling you, like describing who
you don't want to work with,like pushing people away is
helping you sell, and it really.
It really does, and you wasteso much less time.
I'm curious, though, about yoursales process, because you have
a service, and it's not alwayseasy to sell a service without a

(15:39):
sales call.
So do you have an applicationprocess?

Speaker 3 (15:47):
calls.
So do you have an applicationprocess?
No, not really.
So I pretty much my inquiryform is my application.
So it is.
It is at this point.
It, I think for me.
A few years ago I was kind of inthis place where I was getting,
you know, qualified anddisqualified leads and I needed
a way because I would just, youknow, I was sitting on the sales
calls and I was like, well,we're having the same
conversation Like this is just,you know, not that I don't love
my clients, but that's time thatI could be writing for them.

(16:10):
And so for me, the kind ofsales process really looks like
you know lead gen from whateversource.
So that could be usuallyLinkedIn.
That's kind of the only placeI'm doing any kind of marketing
right now.
So someone gets it into myether, whichever way.
Most of the time people end upon my email list.
I have an email newslettercalled Wallflower Fridays.

(16:31):
I go more into the specifics ofhow to tell stories that sell,
but I do that newsletter onFridays and then on Mondays I
send a sales email.
That spoiler alert, it's from acontent library.
I'm not writing it fresh everyweek, it's a six-month content
library that runs back and um, Ihave a service guide where I
don't post my pricing anywhereonline.

(16:53):
So a lot of times people arekind of looking for what it is
that I do.
The content's already kind ofI'll say customer acquisition
wise, like people are if they'redownloading the services guide
like they're 90% sold already onwanting to work with me in
particular, and so that's wherethey get.
You know, here's my process,here's the pricing, here's all
the things.
Here's how the waitlist works,you know, here's the form if and

(17:15):
when you're ready.
And then the inquiry form isthe application.
You know, but it's prettyin-depth.
Someone told me once last yearI was like, oh, I'm sorry, but
that's why I know you're goingto want to work with me.
He was like this took me likean hour to put this together,
but it kind of does weed outlike either someone's going to

(17:36):
take the time to fill it out andI'm going to get a lot of great
data and know exactly what theyneed and what the problems are
and can diagnose it in you know,seconds after saying kind of
what's going on.
But it's also this really greatway for someone to do their own
self-reflection process towhere, when I send a proposal
out because I don't get on aphone call I just pretty much
say, if they're aligned, whichthey mostly are, here's what I

(18:00):
think you need.
Here's a video proposal thattakes the place of a.
You know, sales, call me.
Just saying this is what Ithink you need.
Here's a video proposal thattakes the place of a.
You know, sales call me justsaying this is what I think you
need.
Don't need this is what I woulddo if it were me.
I usually ask for the budget,like explicitly, and work with
them to see what makes the mostsense.
But it's not, it's not.
I just hated like even the ideaof sales calls where I'd be
like oh my gosh, if I have oneat 2 pm, like my whole day is

(18:23):
like waiting around for thesales call.
Yeah, and especially as awriter, like it's really hard to
get into the like creative kindof yeah, that mode start, start
and stop.
It doesn't really work that wayfor me.
I need like a full day of likeairplane mode to really get into
it, and so I just I juststarted seeing like okay, what
are some places and somestoppers, like I'm having the

(18:45):
having the same.
You know questions usually onsales calls.
Let me add a bunch of FAQs tomy services guide.
You know I want people to getonto the email list and get to
know me a little bit more.
I don't normally like to workwith people that aren't at least
a little bit familiar of likewho I am and what I do I do.
I want someone that likerespects what I'm doing, which

(19:06):
is not just the storytelling andthe sales, but it's my writing
is usually a lot more nuanced.
It's usually I've got you knowthree kind of sub markets that
I'm writing for all at once, andso I want someone that kind of
also appreciates the craft a lotas well.
I get people that are like oneof my clients was like how come
every single email you'rewriting is making me cry.
I'm like I wrote it.
I wrote it that way.

(19:26):
I wrote it that wayintentionally because that for
the kind of people that she'swanting to work with, like that
works really well.
Um, it's kind of a coach and aconsultant, and so it's.
It's getting people that reallyrespect what I'm doing and the
storytelling and the sales, butlike appreciating the craft as
much as well, because I want towork with people that get what

(19:49):
I'm, what I'm really doing overhere, and so more, more
repelling and, you know, justcreating a little resonance
wherever you can no, that makessense.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
So your sales process is built to attract and repel
throughout the entire thing.
So so you have to do less ofthe manual selling.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
I don't do.
I'm very anti-cold pitch.
I do not do any of that Verymuch.
Like you know, organic lead genand I just trust I've had
clients who were like completelybroke and like knew that they
couldn't afford to pay me.
And then what do you know, theyhave like a big splashy launch
or like something finally kindof works and then all of a

(20:30):
sudden they've got budget towork with me.
So online business changes sofast that I want to attract
people.
You know whether you get a hugewindfall or whatever else, like
I just want to work with peoplethat they they know that I'm
the right fit, whether they'rethey're ready to invest like
right, this second or, I think,the longest person I call it a

(20:51):
longtime lurker, so someonewho's been in the audience
they're not really like likinganything because they, you know,
if you like or comment, theythink they're going to get in
this like like shitty salesprocess.
So they're very they.
They lurk, but they don't letme know that they're around
until it's time.
But my longest, long-timelurker was like.
They were in my audience fornine years, which legit that is

(21:13):
like legit, like.
Let's flash back to where I wasnine years ago.
I was in college.
I was an intern, like I did nothave a baby.
There was a little baby.
I didn't even know I was like asocial media manager before.
It was like cool, and it wassomeone that they just followed
my LinkedIn story.
They'd seen like the good, badand the truly atrocious of

(21:35):
really shit like selling.
But when it came time for themto need what I was doing, yeah,
she, she reached out, like sheshe'd seen it all.
I mean you pretty much poor babykindle, didn't?
I don't know anything aboutsales.
I didn't go to school foranything sales related.
Like I didn't learn.

(21:55):
I didn't learn until probably acouple years ago really how it
works.
So she, she really saw me andthe trade and she loved you and
she loved me.
And when she knew she needed aghostwriter, she was like I'm
working with you, I'm paying infull, like let's do this thing.
And I was like like I couldhave.
I'm sorry, I could have justnever.

(22:16):
I could have never predictedsomething like that would happen
.
And that's that's the thingwith sales is like if you're
open enough and like open forbusiness enough, that's kind of
what I always envision is likeevery morning I just hang on
open for business side mentallyand I kind of just see what
happens and my, my funnestclient stories, like the, the
weird synchronicities like theyalways happen when I'm more open

(22:39):
and I'm out of the spreadsheet,trying to like reverse
everything yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
I love that, and I've seen that myself too and the
longer that they're lurking, themore excited they are to work
with you.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
My.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
God, it's the best.
Yeah, they're secretly friendswith you.
It's like podcasts that youlisten to where you're like I
feel like.

Speaker 3 (23:02):
I know you.
Oh my God, yeah, I have anotherlongtime lurker.
It's actually the girl I thinkthe best like little messaging
quips, like I'm I'm a goodwriter, but like I don't come up
with them.
It's like this is this girlactually she.
In her inquiry form it saidlike longtime lurker, first time
caller, and I was like I'mstealing.
That that's really good, but wehad.

(23:23):
So we had a discovery call forthis project she needed help
with and, if you didn't know, mybrand marker is a sunflower and
you'll see them all over theplace.
My LinkedIn profile is me.
I saw it on your Jumping withfreaking hair in the air and you
know flowers everywhere.
That was a poem.
But so on our project kickoffcall, she like wore her flowers

(23:44):
and I was like Allison, did youwear those for me?
She was like, yeah, I couldn'tbuy you flowers, so I figured
I'd wear them and I was likethat's cute, like so sweet like
that's a real person, yeah, andwhen it's so genuine too, and I
think that's the thing like wecan get.
That can get lost a little bitin the online world especially,
there's a very toxic side andlike capitalistic side to kind

(24:05):
of you know, making money on theinternet, and I think people
forget like there's all thoselittle magical moments that like
that can happen.
But it's never for me at least,it's never happened when I was
like worrying about money, needto get my spreadsheet stress to
the max, like it usuallyhappened when I was open, I was
like enjoying myself, I washaving fun, and then it's like
the universe just drops in again.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yeah, buy you a bouquet so she wears one for you
.
It's, it's too good, it's toogood it.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
I want to touch on that for a bit, because your
mental state has a huge impacton how you sell.
At least that's my experience.
When I'm relaxed, I'm like it'sall going to be fine.
It is all fine, it always worksout.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
It always works.
May not feel like it in themiddle, like in the middle I
have been through the dark days,but it always, it always, it
always works out.
And it's every time I'm alwayslike shit that was better than
like even if I would have comeup with that, like I'm all the
time where I'm like I'm a writerand like some of the shit that

(25:10):
happened, like I couldn't evenwrite this, like it's better if
I don't worry about it, becausethen I get some crazy
synchronicity or something else.
Yes, the universe is like hereyou go, here's a really great,
fun story, but it's so hard inthe moment because we get I mean
, there's so many reasons right,there's so much pressure.
I know I feel like this onLinkedIn and I feel like I have

(25:32):
a pretty solid mindset andheadspace when I'm like should I
be wanting to make more money?
Should I have a $2 millionbusiness already?
Why am I behind?
I'm not doing that.
I know what I'm here to do, Iknow what I'm wanting to do and
I'm really grounded in that.
But it's really easy when a lotof people's marketing platforms

(25:53):
can have a tendency to lean,you know, shame-based scarcity,
lack mentality, it candefinitely.
I mean, even the strongestmental people I think can can
still fall, you know, victim tothat or feel influenced by it,
when a lot of the times too,some of the stuff they're
posting isn't even true but alot of it.

(26:14):
It's like when did thisspreadsheet, or like when this
screenshot, actually get taken?

Speaker 2 (26:19):
like come on yes, or they're only telling you a
little piece of the story, so itlooks so good and shiny, but in
reality they're in dead up totheir eyeballs, totally, totally
.
So we talked about onestorytelling framework, we
talked about our client stories,so let's get into the next one.

(26:42):
How else can we sell throughstories?

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yeah.
So the next two, I'll say theykind of pair up together.
This one is classic marketing.
We love to talk about painpoints and success factors.
I think a lot of people feelreally intimidated by talking
about pain points and they don'tknow.
I know, for me that was a hardthing.
At first.
I was like I'm not going tocapitalize on someone's pain
points, but like to provide asolution you must share with the

(27:09):
problem.
Yeah, that's just, that's justduality, that's just all that is
.
And so the thing with painpoints that I found is a lot
easier they kind of go togetheris painting a picture of a day
in the life.
So you could do this.
Um, you don't necessarily needto like use a fake name or
anything, but just take someonethrough, like you know, if it's

(27:30):
painful right now, like I, youknow, I bet you xyz.
Like now, like I, you know, Ibet you X, y, z.
Like use examples.
I find that the more specificthat you are, the more premium
the sales messaging goes.
So there's something I like totalk about.
People use like, especially inAI world, like lowest common
denominator messaging.
It's the same thing, like ifit's the most obvious pain point

(27:50):
.
You and your you know 50 othercompetitors have also thought of
it.
So don't use like, so use.
Use more specific examples andeven if it feels like you're
maybe siloing people out, thisis more of a like, a writing
technique, but the more specificyou are, the more universal the
story becomes.

(28:10):
So, even if it feels like you'rekind of pigeonholing something,
I find that people can tuneinto the meaning of what you're
saying and apply it to your ownlife versus you know, you use
this big.
I just picture like the oceanof you know the most obvious
example, like you should hire,like hire a writer so you don't
have to write it, and it's likeokay, but there's like other

(28:33):
ways you could say that yeah,and like day in the life you can
do either.
Again, you can do it with painpoints or success factors or
solutions is a really great one,and it's just vision casting
and it's just taking someonethrough like you know.
Imagine what it would look likeif just vision casting and it's
just taking someone throughlike you know, imagine what it

(28:54):
would look like if, and, andreally just diving into what
that could could be with youroffer or your service or your
product as the hero really thatreally does work, and I've, I've
, I've been told that way too,because your body honestly feels
like a little looser.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
When you hear that imagine statement like we're
right, I could imagine that thatis what my life looks like now.
Now take me on that journey.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
You show you wow, like, like, oh, someone finally
gets it.
Like I know I feel it comesfrom, like you know, doing my
best out here.
And again, the more specificyou are, the more it tends to
kind of lean into your actualexperience.
So, even if it's not 100% thesame, it's the okay.

(29:45):
Well, this person works withsomeone that's kind of in my
same.
You know what I'm going through, so they're going to get it.
And I think that that's soimportant for any kind of
providing a service is reallymaking sure that the person
you're going to invest in getswhat you're about, or at least
close to around what you'reabout.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
I think yeah, yeah, and like a common pain point
that lots of people are goingthrough is they just don't have
enough time.
It's always like around time.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah, what does the time mean?
Tell me what the time exactly?
The thing I always think aboutis like okay, time, yes, time is
important, but also the timerepresents something like yes,
time is also money, like that'sanother thing is is time is
money, and so I think thatpeople just need that kind of

(30:29):
example of what the time couldbe used for.
What could the money from thetime be used for?

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Like there's a lot of examples that you could go into
yeah, connect it, like, look atsome of your clients and see
what do they do with their sparetime so you can connect the
dots, because it's very likely,like if you like your clients
and you want to clone them, thatother people probably also want
to do that with their sparetime exactly.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah, that's.
That's something I think peopledon't do enough of either is
like they they think about like,oh, I gotta create original
content.
I'm like, no, no, you want tofigure out a way to bottle up
your best clients, your favoritepeople to work with.
That's that's really the roleof content, especially if you
kind of like me, like I'm I'mpurely evergreen, like I have a
huge content library I you knowI've built over the years and

(31:20):
that I lean on to help supportthe sales.
But all of that you're like, oh, post it to support that kind
of person I want bottle it up,bottle it up, bottle it up,
repurpose it.
So then you're only you're nothaving to write content fresh
all the time.
It's the hardest part of yourjob is lead gen and connecting
with new people and like lettingthe machine run.
It's not let me manually selland generate all these leads and

(31:44):
I have to write my contentfresh every week.
It's like something's got togive.
Connect to all of them, connectto all of them.
I'm over here like I'm a writerand that's too much writing for
me, like I don't want to dothat.
It's just working smarter, notharder, I think yeah it really
is your sales.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
your marketing can connect, and so can your lead
gen.
All of that can be connectedinto one thing.

Speaker 3 (32:10):
A machine.
I just picture me as, like youknow, I stand back cross-armed
and I'm just watching themachine run and I'm like doing,
maybe doing a little tweaks hereand here, but I'm like
evergreen baby long game, likewe're here we're here yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yeah, yeah, I completely get that.
I always refer to my leanmarketing engine, because once
you get that foundation, you getthat machine running.
It's just working for you.
All you have to do is likestick with your routine have the

(32:53):
the big lows.

Speaker 3 (32:54):
I'm not a big fan of that.
My nervous system doesn't likeit.
So I'm like style, oh hell.
No.
Like I mean it's too risky.
It's also just from a businessperspective it's too risky, I'm
sorry.
I don't want to have to closelike 80 of my sales in one
launch and if it fails.
But no, like I, I have a smallteam.
This is like the money I use topay myself.
I just am not comfortable withthat.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
So no, evergreen, all day, every day.
I like to do tiny launchesbecause I like the style of them
, but I'll do tiny launches,like once a month.
I'm going to promote this thing, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
So yeah, for me, I'm just and it's probably the
nature of what I offer as wellwhich is like retainer content
for you know, six month contract, maybe a project, like I don't
know, and I get so booked inadvance anyway, or I'll get like
a random inquiry where I'm like, well, that was you know a
larger scope, where, like, Icouldn't have predicted that.
So I find launching has beenhard just from a like scoping

(33:51):
and capacity perspective, whereI'm like I don't, I don't know.
You know I always end up gettingbooked out a couple of months
in advance.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
I'm like well, yeah, if you have six month long
retainers, yeah, probably don'thave to do a ton of selling.
You probably have way moreinquiries than you actually need
.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
Yes, yes, no, I ended up hiring a writer to help me
this year.
I'm also writing a book in thebackground that I'll launch
later this year.
So I've had to kind of do some,you know, hiring support and
that kind of thing.
But yeah, it just, it just withthe longer contracts and kind
of the one off projects andeverything.
It doesn't need a bunch of fuelto make the sales engine run at

(34:31):
this at this point, but I've,you know, been on it.
I've tested a few things overthe years too.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, yeah, in my first like three years I was
only doing retainers and Ibarely had to sell.
It was so easy yeah it's.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
I think there, I mean , there's something about, like,
retainers and also, I'll say,referral-based businesses that
it sounds sexy Like oh yeah, mybusiness runs on referrals and
I'm like I don't love that.
I feel like and this was justkind of my story I felt like I
kind of came in into thisbusiness in like 2020, 2021.
And so everyone was you know,all my peers were like yeah, I'm

(35:08):
booked out, I'm on referrals,referrals, and I'm like I don't
know what's going on with me.
But that just wasn't the casefor me.
So I was having to learn reallyhow to sell and I just, I just
don't love referral basedbusinesses because you don't
have any control of your clientroster.
Yes, like.
And the other thing is like okay, you know, let's say, sarah's
my client.
Well, you know, sarah toldVeronica that I'm X amount per

(35:30):
month.
So now Veronica thinks thatthey're going to get.
I'm like, no, no, I want toraise my prices, like, I want to
raise my prices, I want to workless hours, like.
So you end up getting trappedand that was the thing I started
seeing with my revenue is whereI was, like, you know, I'm
hitting the ceiling and it'spartially because of these,
these referrals that are comingthrough, or if a referral client

(35:53):
you know drops off or I'mwaiting on the referral gods to
like send me another referraland I haven't learned how to
sell.
Like I'm screwed.
I have no sales lover and so Ididn't love that and so I've
kind of I try to caution.
Some of my clients come to meand they're like you know, I was
a referral based business andthen things stopped working and
I'm like now that's like thenature of what ends up happening

(36:16):
, like you have to get the salespart turned on basically yes,
Every single member of the tinymarketing club that that they
are running on referralsand it stopped.
Yeah, this is, this is how itgoes.
And a lot of times and classicI'm I'm curious that this is
what happens.

(36:36):
But what happened?
A lot of people, when they havereferrals, they're like, oh,
I'm fine, I don't need to do anyof my sales and marketing stuff
disappear linkedin, disappearfrom instagram, and then I can
tell you the moment someone'sclient rolls off because I'm
like, oh, look at that.
All of a sudden they're justlike back from the dead and I'm
like, like for me, as somebodythat's going to invest in, you

(36:57):
know, any kind of high ticketservice, I'm like I want to know
that that person is consistentand that they know what they're
doing.
And so it's actually like ahuge red flag to to not be
consistent and to kind of gothrough these like feast and
famine and your energy andconsistency and showing up in
sales and marketing spoileralert mirrors the feast and
famine and your revenue.

(37:17):
That's yeah, I like tie a bowon that one.
That's just how it works, andso that's why I kind of didn't
want to have any of that.
I don't know behavior in thebusiness anymore because it was
hurting the sales too much.
It was it was feeling out myown control, which I don't like
that feeling.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah, I think we might be the same person.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
I'm the finest boy, tell me if this sounds like you
it sounds like me.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
I'll tell you that much.
It's uncomfortable relying onother people, and I'm the same
way.
I'm always talking about how I.
If I see that you'reinconsistent in your marketing,
I believe that you'll probablybe inconsistent in how you work
with me.
It makes me trust you lessTotally.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
Totally, yeah, I think.
I think people get so confusedwith there's always like that,
you know, no like trust.
I'm like there are certainbehaviors that people look for.
They're way more important thanlike no, like trust in the
content and the consistency isby far the biggest word yeah, I
think that the trust is part ofthe consistency.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Like it's lost.
If you say you're gonna show upweekly on a youtube show, for
example, and you just drop offthe face with the earth, my
trust is gone.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Or even I mean, if you think about it, I mean,
especially if you're doing anykind of like a program based
with a cohort, that's a reallybad red flag to kind of show off
.
If you go through these likehigh launch periods or I'll see,
even sometimes with the clientswho run ads, they're like oh,
it's cool, I don't need to emailmy list anymore.
We burned the leads that we had, so we'll just go generate a

(38:56):
bunch of them from ads.
And I'm like you have so manypotential leads just sitting
there waiting.
There wasn't time for them.
Then, like this could be easier.
It's kind of getting easier.
Get a six-month content library.
You will thank me later.
You will thank me later.
Like it's just it's.
It's funny, the things that Ithink people think business how

(39:20):
it should be, it should feel somuch sexier.
And then it's like the theboring is the thing that creates
the the really bolts.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
There's nothing sexy about it, it's routine.
I I call it my everyday profithabits.
It's just like simple things Ido every day that bring in leads
.
Yep, it's boring, but it works.
It's boring, but it works.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
Let's get a fancy drink in one of your five cups
on the table.
Get you some good music going.
Drink a cup of coffee, Call ita day Like it's just well.
Your nervous system also willthank you for how grounded you
feel in doing it versus the likeoh shit, I need a client now.
Like freak out, do all thethings, like that doesn't know

(40:04):
right yeah, so it's not, it'snot sexy, and no one's talking
about this on the internetbecause we're all making a
million dollars in a weekend orwhatever.
It's not happening.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yes, whenever I tell stories about like big sales
days, I always give them theasterisks like I was nurturing
those relationships for monthsbefore you just happen to all
sign on the same day?
No, literally, literally.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
You're like oh, this big, big month.
Let me, let me tell you aboutmy, you know, 35, 35k and the 4K
the next month.
It's because they all closed onthe same day.
It's a credit hour.
It's a credit hour that way.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
They don't think you're special.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
But good people don't.
I think part of it is there'speople make it seem a certain
way and then it's like, well, ifthey did it, then I'm going to
do it, and so that's toxic.
But then, there's not a reallike truth saying of like no,
this is like what they're doing.
One you don't have to do it too, and it also doesn't mean
anything about you if you had aslower sales month for whatever

(41:04):
reason.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
Like yeah, they happen all the time.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
Yeah, and no one's talking about those.
No, no, it's not sexy.
Yeah, it's not, it's not sexy,but it's real life and that is I
don't know.
I think I wish things could bea little bit different and I,
you know, I try my best to be,especially with sharing the
nuance of like this is how thishappened.
But yeah, it's interesting whatpeople will pay to believe.

(41:31):
I'll say that.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Yeah, I have started talking about my slow sales
months, like three months later,so I can show them what, like
what habits I added to fix that.
Yeah, but that's the mostcomfortable I can get.
I can't talk about it while I'min it because I'm too deep in
it.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
No, it's terrible.
Well, no one wants you to toget kicked when you're down,
which this is actually a greatsegue into, uh, into four.
Are we in the third one or thefourth one?
um, let's see two and three youcombined into yes, yes, so one
of them is lessons learned isone of the big, the big ones.
So thank you for the the queueup.
But yeah, I think and it's thisweird thing on the internet

(42:16):
there's kind of two trades.
There's the like okay, well, ifI'm honest about like this was
a hard sales month, then noone's going to trust me.
I personally, the reason Ireally like sharing lessons
learned give it some time, don'ttalk about it when you're in it
like something my coach and Italk about is like I never push
publish on an unprocessedthought.
So, like, make sure you've likewrapped it up, you've done the

(42:37):
post-mortem, you know, talk,talk about it.
But you can usually trace backlike okay, what caused this to
happen?
Um, but lessons learned, I know, for me especially someone that
you know provides high ticket,but also I write high ticket and
also I invest high ticket Iwant to know that someone has
the business acumen to getthemselves out of a hole.

(42:57):
Yeah right, high ticket salesis super interesting because and
like premium sales messaging itno longer is about just getting
the like you know, theeconomical solution these people
care about that you have nuance, that that you have range, that
you've not only you know, madeit X amount of thousands of
dollars or whatever else.
They also want to know that youknow how to navigate out of

(43:21):
really tough spots.
That is where the actual likegold comes from.
Yeah, with some boundaries, Iwill say with some boundaries.
So a lot, of, a lot of peoplewill be like.
They'll ask me like well, I'msupposed to be like hashtag,
vulnerable, right, like I'msupposed to talk about this?
Like big mental breakdown I hadand I'm like no, you don't have
to do that, it has nothing todo with you, it has nothing to

(43:43):
do with your business.
That's my first thing.
Like I'm, I'll say like forthis podcast.
I just went through a veryprofound, like biggest grief
cycle of my entire life.
Did I write about it anywhere?
Hell, no, like I maybe alludedto it.
I will probably not talk aboutwhat happened in any form of
content because I have aboundary of like these are the
topics that are awful, mixed,that also have nothing to do

(44:07):
with business anyway.
So those are just like thingslike family, kids, revenue, to a
certain extent, like therethere are certain things you
don't have to talk about in thename of being hashtag,
vulnerable, like, and again, Ijust think about the freaking
cheerios in the back of the car,like I mean, you're cringing
all over again.

(44:28):
What are we doing?
Or even, just like you know,sharing selfies, and you know a
selfie of you crying, and I'mlike, oh yuck, don't like that
at all.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
I hate that.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
I'm like please stop performing for this.
Yes, this is really weird andit also shows me that you don't
actually know anything aboutbusiness, like it just does so
many things.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
Or vulnerability, because nobody nobody, when
they're actually feeling thatway is going to think to take a
picture of themselves.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
it doesn't come off as authentic at all you don't
want to see me when I've beencrying.
Okay, it's not cute, it's notcute, it's not cute for an
algorithm, it's not good.
But it's this thing where Ithink people just like it's,
it's you want to be vulnerable,and there is.
I think people mistakeauthenticity and vulnerability

(45:16):
so much like, yeah, I'm not, I'mnot vulnerable if I don't tell
you all my scars or whatever,and I'm like I don't really want
to monetize from my scars,because then that means I'm
gonna call in more scars, like Idon't.
Yeah, it's kind of bad, juju,you know, I don't really yeah, I
don't mean that I don't.
I don't.
I don't want my marketingstrategy to be.

(45:36):
Let's talk about, like the shitI should be talking to a
therapist about you know, yeah,I've got her for that, I've got
her for that.
I have a coach for that, like Ihave all the people resourced
not for this purpose.
But again, it's this thing of Ithink we with the vulnerability
piece and everything else it'slike I want to share you know

(45:59):
what I learned, or whatever else.
But you have to remember, froma business perspective, I think
it is smart to talk about harderseasons just because, again,
that shows business acumen,which is, I know, for me.
If I'm going to hire a coach orI'm going to hire a marketing
person, I'm like you, betterknow what to do.
If the plane starts falling, Iwant to know that you know how

(46:21):
to fix it and I want to knowthat you know how to fix it in
your own business, becauseotherwise anyone can say that
they know what they're doing.
That's half of LinkedIn.
Absolutely.
Show me that you know how toget yourself out of it, or like
how to generate revenue when youneed it, or prove to me that
this works, even if there's aslow cycle or whatever else.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
The last two coaches I've had.
I went with them because theywent through periods that I went
through periods and I was like,oh, they got themselves out.
I want them Totally.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
Yeah, I've been working with my coach for almost
four years in May, three and ahalf years I guess at this point
and it's for her like a lot ofour journeys like mirror a lot,
where she's kind of, you know,usually a step ahead of me but I
, because I do the inner work,does the inner work, but a lot
of the like strength in the, themental performance for sure,
has come from her teaching meyou know about, you know it

(47:22):
doesn't mean anything about youif your revenue is slow and and
all of these lessons that Ithink people kind of discount
that that is an important partof business, like the mental
performance, the ability to stayon track, like good god,
everyone, everyone gettingdistracted by all this stuff.
That is not generating revenuebut it's like the illusion that

(47:42):
it could versus just like do dothe simple thing, do do the tiny
things that you know.
You're.
What did you say?
The diet, the tiny, oh,everyday habits.
You know, you're.
What did you say?
The tiny, oh, everyday habits.
Everyday habits yeah, everydayhabits Like that was the hardest
thing for me, because I used tobe a you know, a high-low girl.
I used to be like let's ridethe roller coaster, this is so

(48:03):
fun, high octane risk and stress, and now I'm like that actually
was the worst, like the worstperiod of my life, but it's.
I think working with, likecoaches or service providers
that also like their businessmodel and the energy, like how
they're making money, like whatis, what are the values behind
how they're doing this, that'sanother.

(48:23):
That's like a sub story type,but like definitely having an
understanding of like well, how,how are they making money?
Like how does this actuallywork, I think really is helpful,
because you can definitely workwith people who are like pro,
launch, pro, ads, pro, all thesethings, or you can kind of
connect yourself with peoplethat sell in a way that feels
better for you and for yournervous system.

(48:45):
Yeah, there's a lot of.
There's a lot of us around thathave the same values.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
But, you know, we're maybe not the loudest people on
the internet because we're doingour little things yeah, finding
a coach that, like you guys,click on that sales level, yeah,
I think that matters so much.
Yeah, because then you canfigure out where it's going

(49:09):
wrong for you like, like I'mtrying this, I know it's going
to work, but something needs tobe tweaked.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Yeah, my coaches specifically.
So I know it may not seem likeit, I'm a very introverted
writer, but I'm very introvertedand her whole approach was like
she's for introverts, empathsand highly sensitive people.
And so after working with her,I was like, oh my God, this is
empaths and highly sensitivepeople.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
And so after working with her, I was like, oh, my god
, this is why I hate going tothe grocery store.
Oh my god, like I didn't knowit all makes sense.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Yeah, but it was like all of the energy management
stuff that she was kind ofteaching me that like I think
some people in my family stillthink I'm an extrovert, which is
not true, so it's.
It's very interesting likeworking with someone that the
values and how they sell, like alot of the like.
Think about it.
Okay, if I'm an introvert andan empath and a highly sensitive
person, sales calls are likenot a great energy giving thing

(49:59):
for me.
So that's kind of how we builtmy sales ecosystem to make more
sense for me, my personalitystyle, but also like the
function of my business.
I'm a writer, so it's hard forme to, you know, do a couple
hours of work and then do asales call or, you know, do a
podcast interview and then jumpright back in.
Like that it doesn't make sensefor what I'm doing.

(50:19):
So finding a coach that canreally honor who you are and
what you are and how you preferto work, I think is really
important.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
Yeah, I really want to highlight that too, and so
many entrepreneurs or people whowant to be an entrepreneur feel
like they have to fit intosomebody else's box.
But really it's about findingthe systems that work for you
and your energy levels and howyou think, and once you find

(50:50):
that, everything will feelnatural and it will flow.

Speaker 3 (50:54):
Yes, it doesn't work.
There's a lot of coaching thatI think with and it's definitely
still happening.
It was giving like 2020, 2021coaching industry MLM vibes.
It was like, oh, I made allthis money doing this thing, so
now I'm going to teach you how Idid it.
And you're like, well, firstoff, I'm not extrovert extreme,

(51:15):
so that's like 90% of whatyou're about to teach me is
actually terrible, and I'veinvested in coaches like that
where it's like cool, I learnedone way and one marketing
strategy and ecosystem that doeswork.
But for someone like me, I don'twant to send 20 DMs and I don't
want to have a spreadsheet oflike every lead ever that I'm

(51:36):
connected with like that.
The minutiae of that is justtotally draining.
So it's it's understanding andI think there's there's
definitely something aboutindividual coaching, bespoke
styles, where it reallyincorporates who you are, even
just the nature of your business, what you're trying to do.
Like I don't I'm not trying tobe the next version of your
business, I'm kind of justtrying to build my own thing and

(51:57):
I need support with the mentalstuff, the spiritual stuff, the
emotional, all of the likeinterpersonal, client sending
boundaries, like all of thisstuff, the other things that you
know, the day-toto-day like,I'll say, like personal
operations to get it, get itmoving at.
You know, I have good businesssense, but I need someone to

(52:19):
hold me accountable, to like, no, this is what we're building.
Like we don't need to go build,you know, an email newsletter
with 50 000 subscribers and likea shitty digital product at the
back end.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Like that's not my thing yeah, yeah, and you see
somebody else who's doing itsuper successfully and you're
like maybe me too, maybe, maybeme too, in our own way, and then
you get distracted.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
Yes, oh my gosh, the distract, the lack of focus and
distraction is is anotheranother thing too, because it's,
it's, it's so challengingbecause you, you want to be and
have the same results as the, asother people.
But again, the nuance, they maynot be telling you the whole
story, they might may not, youknow, have had the same starting
place that you did like.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
Yeah, that's, there's so much there's just too much
that's not confirmed, trulyconfirmed yeah, yeah, I
constantly talk about how much Ihate when someone has a very
specific framework and you haveto go through each one of their
steps and they're like, well, ifit's not working for you, then

(53:24):
you're try harder where it'slike no, this isn't for me, it's
not going to work for mypersonality.
I need something that fits meand the way I work.
Yeah, I just think hard,concrete ways, processes of
moving people through like toget the same accomplishment as

(53:45):
you got.
They don't.
It doesn't work.
It needs to be custom for theperson.

Speaker 3 (53:49):
Totally, totally agree.
Retweet that one for sure, yeahboop, that was my retweet
button.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yeah, love, let's get to five.
What is this fifth?
Yeah, storytelling one.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
The fifth, one other than the money making
testimonials and, like theclient case studies, arguably
the most important, the one thatpeople never talk about, is
your origin story.
So everyone, especially in yourbusiness evolution, I know this
was true for me.
You know we tend to discountthe things that we've learned

(54:22):
over the years.
So for a really long time Ididn't talk about how, yes, I
have a ghostwriting business.
I also flash forward to me likemy first job.
Out of college.
I had a very like fluke of afirst job.
I was in the C-suite of aFortune 100 company,
ghostwriting for a seniorexecutive.
I was 21.
Like couldn't make it up.

(54:43):
I got all the experience in theworld at like the highest place
you could possibly beghostwriting at from a corporate
perspective.
Yeah, you lucked out.
I like really truly fluke of afirst job.
They should never have given methat.
I was like nearly a drinkingage, but there, you know that
was a huge part of my story andkind of how, looking back, I'm

(55:03):
like, oh well, I was alreadykind of doing this and I was
doing this at a different levelwhere, you know, I did have the
kind of corporate cushion whereI could experiment more and I
got to see a whole lot,especially because we were doing
a lot of internal communication.
So I kind of got to see likecrash course, how does this work
at a really young age?
The other thing most peopledon't know that I talk about

(55:25):
sometimes, but definitely not asmuch as I while working full
time, I had a corporate,corporate job.
I got a master's in PR,specifically an internal and
executive communications, whichis, spoiler alert ghostwriting
yeah, exactly what you're doingthat's what that is.
Yeah, pr for an executive,that's what that is.
But I didn't think because Ijust thought like, okay, well,

(55:47):
once you're an entrepreneur, youonly earn your stripes from
what you do in this one businessconcept and and that's it.
Not realizing, like my originstory, that's so important.
Like when I started talkingabout that, people were like,
man, that makes me feel like 20times better hiring you because
you've at least seen more stuff.
Or like you've, you know,you've studied this, you've,
you've taken the reps in andyou've done all of this.

(56:07):
My coach, she has a reallygreat juicy origin story,
because it's this, it's thething you can't replicate no no
one else is going to have thestory that you have and that's
the magic.
That's, that's one of the bestways to key into why you do the
things that you do.
But, like my coach and businessintrovert and highly sensitive

(56:28):
person, she'll say, like thereason she's so good at her job
is she was an air trafficcontroller for like 10 years and
so and she actually tells thisstory She'll say that she had
this client that wanted to workwith her after finding out that
she was an air trafficcontroller and the reason this
client signed on to work withher was because they said that's

(56:49):
someone's brain that I want onmy business.
Like your brain, the things thatyou're good at and the past
experience you have.
Like you know, yes, you mightbe a coach or a consultant, but
like that thing, whatever thatspecial experience, they're
either super connected to itfrom a values perspective or
they're like you know, I don'tknow a lot about air traffic
control, but you know, youdefinitely know about complexity

(57:10):
like that.
That's the thing that I think alot of people, I think people
think you know I'm supposed totalk about.
You know, this is why I startedmy business.
It's usually because you left acorporate job or you got laid
off during the pandemic like.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
We know your story because it's all of our story.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Yeah, I know I well, and for a while, like I, when I
first started I was like, ohyeah, I like got tired of my
corporate job, that that was myorigin story, that I used a lot,
and then I just kept scrollingand I was like shit, they have
the same one, they have the same.
I was like, okay, this is, thisis not gonna work, like we're
gonna have to find somethingelse, but that that's the.
The thing is like no, no onecould possibly have my origin

(57:50):
story and the combination.
There's so many differentbackstories to things as well,
in different ways, not just fromthe business owner's
perspective either, or why thebusiness got started.
It's also a really great way totalk about your offers and the
origin story of your offer, likewhy did you create this?
Well, you probably saw a gap inthe market.
Why was this so important?
What were you noticing in yourclients that you know they were

(58:14):
struggling with that no one elseseemed to you know get solved.
Why did you do it in this way?
Tell me why you created it inthis way.
Certain benefits, certain specs.
That origin story is againbesides kind of client
testimonials.
That is kind of the magic, Ithink that kind of weaves into
every, every business and everystory that you could be telling,

(58:37):
because it's something that noone else is going to have, it's
in.
It's impossible for anyone tohave the same combination as you
and if they do, you're notlooking hard enough.
You got to do a little moresoul searching because there's
definitely there's.
I sit all day, every day,writing origin stories for
people and I'm just like dude,this is juicy.
Like there's there's just amillion and one ways to to spin

(59:00):
it and talk about it.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Yeah, there there are .
I write a lot of LinkedInprofiles for my clients and
that's one of the things that Ihave, and usually their
experience section is the originstory of what made them the
person that they are today.
That launched the thing thatthey're doing and they're so fun
and interesting yeah, well, no,origin stories are great too,

(59:26):
because what?

Speaker 3 (59:26):
what's actually underneath them?
Again, those, those likeuniversal themes the more
specific we are, they resonateon a universal level.
Origin stories are so funbecause you can tell it 20
different ways, just withdifferent stories or different
values.
And so, like I could tell youmy origin story, but I'm using
it through the lens ofauthenticity, maybe I'm using it
through a lens of rebellion,maybe I'm using it through a

(59:49):
lens of abundance, like there'sa million different ways to tell
you know, why you startedsomething, why you created an
offer, and those values and thelens that you choose to tell
that story through are thethings that are going to
resonate with someone.
And again, it's that specificityof someone being like man that
was really interesting to me, orthat, really, you know, I think

(01:00:13):
we all kind of have seasonalthemes or things that we're kind
of into, and I think that iswhat really attracts people into
our ether, whether they'reready to invest.
You know, today, right, thissecond, or you know they need
nine years yeah, you know so tofinally convert.

(01:00:51):
You know, we don't we don'treally ever know angst as to why
I left, but also, like thatshaped a lot of what I learned
and a lot of what I didn't wantto bring with me into building a
business.
So there's, there's almost likethis healing process that can
happen again a little bit moreinternally.
It doesn't mean you have to go,you know, blast your
vulnerabilities and your pasttraumas, but there's a lot of

(01:01:15):
healing then and when you ownall the parts of you, that's the
thing that allows you to becomewhole and kind of propel
yourself forward can also helpyou reframe your past.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
If it was something that was uncomfortable or bad at
the moment, it helps you see itthrough a new lens because that
experience led you to thebusiness that you have today.
Like my origin story is, I wasa one person marketing
department for a seven companygroup and I was overwhelmed.
I had seven presidents.

(01:01:46):
It was very hard, but it alsoallowed me the space to build a
framework that worked reallywell for them, and then I was
able to replicate it for otherclients.
So while at the time I was like, oh my God, what did I get
myself into?
Now I'm like thank God I did,because I had to be scrappy and

(01:02:10):
figure out how to make it allwork.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
Yeah, but lessons learned story.
That's what people want to hear.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
You know they want to hear the virgin story.

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
They want to hear, like, what you learned about
that?
And I think, yeah, the more wecan own.
You know I really believe inlike neuroplasticity.
You know we have a lot oftrauma we store in our bodies.
We can reheal it, we can rewireour brains and that is part of
the the process too, like, Ithink, doing a kind of
retroactive look at what you,where you came from.

(01:02:40):
Also, if you're like goingthrough a tough season, it's
also the thing that's gonna, youknow, hopefully create a little
bit of a spark and be like,okay, you know, I said I
survived what I thought wasgoing to be the worst day of my
life or the worst season of mylife.
And you know, I can see it maystill have some darkness, but
there is some light there aswell, and I think that is kind
of, I think that's what hopefeels like.

(01:03:01):
You know, in a season, or youknow, after closing something
down or stopping an offer or alaunch flop or whatever else,
like you, it always leads tosomething better.
It may not feel like it at thetime, but I think that is, you
know, I think that's what hopeand you know, maybe I'm overly
optimistic, but I think that's,that's that kind of like inner

(01:03:22):
work of being an entrepreneurthat really needs to be taking
place to get the kind of resultsand more alignment you, you
know, going into whatever thenext era is, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
It took me a long time to realize that too, when
something didn't work out.
Now I'm looking at it withcuriosity instead of
disappointment, like what is thelesson there?
What is it that I Even?

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
just accepting right off and, like you know, move on.
I feel like I have to, like,really just sit in it, and this
is something else that I write alot subconsciously under the
radar, if you didn't know whatto look for.
I write a lot about grief iswhat I actually.
You know, if you were to pullback and I were to really reveal
Spoiler, that's what's actuallyhappening here.

(01:04:10):
I write a lot about grief and Iwrite a lot about joy and
abundance.
And I think, like mostentrepreneurs, who wants to feel
grief, who wants to feeldepressed, who wants to feel sad
, like it's a really crappyfeeling and it can feel like you
can't get yourself out of it?
But grief is also this is likemy storyteller memoirist side
coming out.
But grief is also a death and arebirth cycle memoirist side

(01:04:34):
coming out.
But grief is also a death and arebirth cycle.
So when you can grieve, youknow the past.
That is also the thing.
Take with it what you wouldlike into the next birth or
rebirth.
That is the case for anything.
It could be an offer, abusiness concept, it could be a
career change, it could be arelationship like like that.
That is, grief is like death andrebirth, and so I think that

(01:04:55):
that work it's not fun to sitwith and you can't ai prompt
your way out of it like you haveto actually sit feelings, but I
think that's an important partof the the storytelling process
as well, and kind of what addsrichness to what you're sharing
makes me think of tarot when youpull the death card.
Oh, my god, no, for me it's.

(01:05:16):
Anytime I pull the tower I'mlike like I don't want it, I
don't want it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
So many people think that the death card is bad, but
really it's like the beginningof a new chapter.
It's a rebirth, truly trulyyeah, and it's.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
it's tough to hold, though I mean who?
Who wants to feel like you knowsomething failed, or like
something you know can'tcontinue?
It's it's hard to sit with, butit's, you know, death and
rebirth it's no different thanOK.
It's you know time to clear outsome spring cleaning.
You're going to go through, getrid of the, the clutter in your
house that you don't wantanymore, and you're going donate
some of it.

(01:05:51):
Well, that creates space forsomething new and it feels good
once it's over.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
It was good once it's over.
Yeah, you have to move through.
Yeah, you could be.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
I I will say, you know, one of my, one of my
quirks is I'm not the best atactually dropping this stuff off
at goodwill, so I'll likesitting in your trunk, sitting
in my trunk for a little bit.
It's fine, but it's at leastout of the apartment so you
can't really feel it.
But, um, yeah, I think it's.
It's allowing yourself to kindof grow and evolve and like we

(01:06:23):
can't, I hope you know, stay thesame level all the time.
We have to to allow ourselvesto clear out what isn't serving
us and create space for whateveris new.
That could be clients, thatcould be certain offers, that
could be pricing, that could beand anything like nothing is off
the table.
And if there's one thing I'velearned, it's like I expect the

(01:06:44):
unexpected.
Yeah, evolution is inevitableyeah, grow or die, and die is
not, and so buckle up, baby.
I don't know what to tell youyeah, get real comfortable with
change if you're in business, ifyou're an entrepreneur, yeah,
seriously, every week somethingdifferent, but that is part of I

(01:07:07):
think there's a certain type ofperson that is resilient enough
to do this for a living, and itdoesn't mean it's not tough,
but it's you being resilient andstrong and able to navigate the
highs and the lows.
And that's what people whetherit's clients, whether it's
customers, whether it's youlooking for someone to work with
those are kind of, for me, thebig indicators that come with

(01:07:32):
the.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
the job description, yeah god, I have definitely
become a stronger person becauseof it, because when I started
it was very uncomfortable yeah,yeah it's.

Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
It's a tough job, for sure.
Like it's, it's still one ofthe harder things I've ever had
to do in my life, but wouldn'tchange it for a day, wouldn't.
Wouldn't change it.
There's some seasons where I'mlike that was scrappy but I did
not enjoy that.
Yeah, that was not my funnesttime, but we're still living to
tell the tale and there's valuein that.

(01:08:08):
So you know, live to dieanother day.
That's what I tell myself allthe time, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
Yeah, it's probably like the innate optimism that
lives in all of us that keeps usgoing, Like it's bad right now
but tomorrow will be better.
It's that visionaryentrepreneur.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
It's really helpful sometimes, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
So can you tell the audience how they can work with
you and find you online?

Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
Yeah, so, as far as working with me, I go straight,
mostly content in thestorytelling format.
So most clients work with meeither on a LinkedIn content
retainer or email newsletters orboth.
So I definitely have a certainkind of style.
I'm definitely more kind ofdirect quippy.
I kind of write like a talk andso most of my clients tend to

(01:08:57):
be like very, yeah, a certaintype of humor style.
But it's really fun to write alot of email welcome series for
email newsletters, especially ifyou're trying to figure out how
to tell it in a way that'sstorytelling and selling.
That is another big thing thatI write for clients or some

(01:09:19):
sales pages or service pages forwebsites a lot of times as well
, but definitely more in thecontent.
You know name of the game andworking with my clients to build
a content library.
So filling in the gaps,especially like what is the
content that's out here that westill need to have in your
six-month library, is reallywhat I try to get my clients to.

(01:09:43):
And then, as far as where to seeme online, I'm on LinkedIn,
pretty active over there, andthen I write a newsletter called
Wallflower Fridays similar vibeto kind of I mean just how I
speak basically, but I alwaystry to tell some story from my
life where I pull inspirationfrom like books that I'm reading
, movies that I'm watching.
I last week this is like soembarrassing but last week I

(01:10:04):
sent one about DisneyDescendants which has been my
like hyper fixation, which isactually a banger of a
storytelling, and so I kind ofwent into like why, why it works
.
Um, but if you want to readwallflower fridays, you can sign
up for that atwallflowerfridayscom very nice,
and now I have to go check thatout.
I have to just think I might notheard of it.

(01:10:26):
Yeah, oh my god it is.
I will really and truly go off.
I'm like I like it was supposedto be a joke, like my YouTube
algorithm like was reallyshowing me this stuff.
And then I was watching it andI was like, oh my god, they're
like talking about I'm I'mhealing from like narcissistic
abuse right now.
And so like, oh my god, thefirst movie is like all about

(01:10:48):
healing from narcissists.
What's up, it was like it knew.
And then I'm like looking atthis, I'm like, oh my god, this
is like very woke art what ishappening.
And now I'm like it's soembarrassing.
This is like I would normallytell my email list that you know
not people on a podcast, butlike I'm reread, I'm reading.
There's like prequel books, I'mreading the children's prequel

(01:11:10):
books for these busy movies.
But the the music is great.
It's directed by Kenny Ortega,who did a high school musical,
um, I don't know.
It's really fun and it's beenlike a really joyful experience
and it's it's the backstory ofthe villains and the you're a
Disney's villain, so it's thekids of the villains, the
descendants, but it's fun, it'ssuper fun.

(01:11:34):
It's super nostalgic, like thevalues and the themes, like if
you want to talk about universalthemes like I'm.
I'm literally sitting herewatching this, I'm crying and
I'm like, oh my god, they'rehealing from narcissistic
parents, like holy shit, likeit's.
It's just, I think, really wellwritten, it's campy, it's hokey
, like it's fine.
The music in the second one islike we're playing it a lot

(01:11:56):
right now.
You know, I'm just listening toit a lot, but it's a fun like
kind of I don't know just it's.
It's a little bit different,it's it's kind of playful or
whatever.
But yeah, you can watch it.
Well, we have it.
So I'm going to try it out.
Yeah, well, tell me how it goes, because I'm like I said, I'm
reading the books.

(01:12:16):
We're deep in it, so we'rethere.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
I will.
I will let you know.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
This talk was way longer thanmy normal ones.
I heard every bit of it.
Thank you.
All right, that was a long one,but it was a good one.
So, now that this episode isover, this is what I want you to
do Audit your content.

(01:12:41):
Does every post that you'vecreated in the last seven days,
let's say, subtly sell?
Are you hinting or nodding, orthreading your offer into the
content and the stories thatyou're telling?
Incorporate storytelling inyour marketing, particularly
around client case studies, sopeople can visualize themselves

(01:13:04):
in the place of your currentclients.
Clarify your messaging to bothattract and repel potential
clients.
It will save you so much timeon unnecessary sales calls.
Build a streamlined salesprocess that works for you.
So everybody's sales process isa little different.
You need it to work for thelife that you have and your

(01:13:27):
business and your offers.
So build one that you actuallylove and, last, embrace the long
game.
Nurture leads so they becomeready to work with you.
So one way you can do that isthrough DMs, which you learned
in episode 122.
If you haven't listened to that, go back in time one week to

(01:13:50):
that one and another way is inthe inbox.
So I recently released an emailmarketing kit that I think
you'll love, and it shows fivedifferent email sequences,
templates and their plug andplay.
They show you examples on howyou can sell after a freebie or
after a client has ghosted you,or how to get more butts in

(01:14:16):
seats when you're hosting a freeevent.
So there's five email sequence,all designed to nurture your
leads and pull them through andhelp them become clients you
love all things tiny marketing.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
Head down to the show notes page and sign up for the
wait list to join the tinymarketing club, where you get to
work one on one with me withtrainings, feedback and pop up
coaching.
That will help you scale yourmarketing as a B2B service
business.
So I'll see you over in theclub.