July 24, 2025 • 32 mins
What does it mean to lead not just from the head, but from the heart? To follow not only plans, but the pulse of something deeper, your intuition?
This week, I sit down with Executive Director Cassandra Holden, a visionary leader and culture weaver who is stewarding BOMBYX Center for Arts & Equity — a sacred and historic arts space in Florence, Massachusetts — into its next chapter of justice, beauty, and collective transformation.
We explore what it means to truly listen to the soul of a place, to lead a community with radical care and spiritual integrity, and to hold space for discomfort, healing, and joy, all at once. Cassandra shares what it looks like to trust your gut when the stakes are high, and why intuition is not just a personal compass, but a path to collective awakening.
Follow me on Instagram @ToHumisHuman and @sonorous.light555
Website: www.sonorouslight.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:05):
Hello and welcome.
It's Donabelle, your friend andhost of To Hum is Human, the
podcast where we explore thetransformative power of tuning
into our intuition to expressour passionate purpose.
Today's episode covers intuitiveleadership, leading with heart
and vision.
We're talking about what itmeans to lead not just with
(00:28):
strategy, but with spirit, tolisten, to feel, and to respond
from a place of rooted innerknowing.
I'm so thrilled to introduce mynext guest.
Cassandra Holden is theexecutive director of Bombic
Center for Arts and Equity inFlorence, Massachusetts, a
longtime producer of festivalsand multidisciplinary arts
(00:50):
events.
Cassandra has brought public artinto affordable housing
communities with Wayfinders,created collaborative sculpture
with students at the CareCenter, and helped launch Roke
House, a community art space inHolyoke.
Her work sits at theintersection of art, equity, and
intuitive leadership, creatingspaces where culture, community,
(01:14):
and spirit meet.
Welcome, Cassandra.
It's a pleasure to be here withyou.
Now, you've done suchthoughtful, integrative work at
the intersection of art andcommunity.
Your collaboration withWayfinders brought public art
into affordable housingdevelopments, inviting beauty
into everyday, often overlookedspaces.
(01:35):
What did that experience teachyou about the power of art to
reclaim dignity, identity, and asense of belonging?
SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
The decade that I did that work was deeply
meaningful.
I think when we think ofaffordable housing, we often
think of architecture that doesnot uplift the spirit.
There have been generations ofthinking about how we house
low-income people, and there's aphrase in the industry,
warehousing the poor.
We all know what that looks likein terms of architecture, in
(02:06):
terms of the grounds aroundthose types of properties, in
terms of the amenities that areoffered on those sites.
And I'm pleased to share that inrecent decades, like the
thinking around that haschanged.
And now we often see thoseprojects that integrate market
rate units as well as moreaffordable units.
So understanding sort of likethe New York subway, everyone in
(02:27):
New York takes a subwayregardless of income level.
And it's really important thatwe have that kind of social
mixing.
And then my work was reallyworking with artists to bring
work into those spaces becausethey can be undecorated, right?
And really we convey a sense ofdignity, of possibility, of
hopefulness when we bring artinto those spaces.
(02:48):
Like if you imagine any sort ofswank apartment building,
there's a Warhol, there's aDeSouvereau, There's a museum
quality piece in the lobby.
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
Creating that kind ofinteraction with art and
creativity when you first entera space really says a lot.
UNKNOWN (03:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
So that work was like close to my heart.
Also, one of the reasons thatwas deeply moving for me is that
my mother, who recently passed,you know, she lived in low
income senior housing.
You know, one of the beautifulthings that happened in that
space is that they invitedartists and members of the
community to display paintingswithin the building.
(03:30):
So this was artwork that wouldchange routinely.
And then my work was also deeplyinformed by the Bywater Arts
Loft, where my sister livedbriefly after Hurricane Katrina,
which was this incredibleproject in New Orleans where the
apartments themselves were verysimple, but there were large
spaces for artists to creatework, to display work, to put
(03:53):
together events.
And that was such a powerfultransformational project in that
community, particularly as, youknow, New Orleans was being
rebuilt with a lot of veryexpensive condos, right?
And a lot of artists who hadlived there for generations
weren't able to live in theheart of the city in the
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
same way.
Creating artist residenciesinside housing projects is rare.
What did you notice when artistswere invited into those spaces
with intention?
Like what shifted in the artistsor in the residents or in the
atmosphere itself?
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
So one project that comes to mind when working on
Live 155 in Northampton, whichsits right on Pleasant Street,
it's that big multi-story yellowbrick building.
We worked with the artistproject Paul Shule, who's a
local photographer.
And I collected oral historiesfrom those residents.
And he was in that space makingportraits of folks who lived
(04:47):
there.
And then we displayed that workat Historic Northampton and had
a series of talks andpresentations.
And it was an opportunity tocapture the full humanity.
I think we can project certainkinds of narratives onto the
folks who live in boardinghouses, in affordable housing.
And instead, we were able tocreate these portraits that were
(05:08):
incredibly nuanced and sharestories that might not otherwise
get out there.
And now those portraits, thosephotographs actually hang in the
lobbies.
The amazing thing about thatproject, too, is that Wayfinders
took a really sensitiveapproach.
They relocated everyone whenthey demolished Northampton
(05:29):
Lodging.
And then all of those residentsactually had the first
opportunity to come back intothe new building.
They worked with this amazingtransition counselor.
And believe it or not, like formany residents, it was actually
more affordable for them to comeback into the new building that
was better appointed and saferand more beautifully designed
(05:50):
than it had been to be in thisweekly lodging situation.
There was actually one gentlemanwho had been living there for 30
years.
Wow.
you know, worked as a chef atthe Blue Bonnet Diner.
It was just incredible to hearthese stories like and to be
able to celebrate these folks.
(06:10):
Right.
And see their faces, like bringthem into the day-to-day
interactions with everybody inthe building.
SPEAKER_02 (06:17):
That must be so empowering for them too, because
they probably would neverimagine themselves being in
portraits on the wall,decorating this beautiful new
structure that they now areliving in.
That's something so meaningfulin so many levels.
And to get press coverage aroundthat, right?
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
You know, during one of the interviews, someone said
to me, like, I'm not famous.
Why would why would a reporterwant to talk to me?
Why would anyone want to talk?
Like, why would anyone want totake my picture?
Yeah.
No, actually, you are important.
Your story is valuable.
This is part of our community.
You deserve to be here as muchas you know.
anyone who makes the news allthe time.
Absolutely.
Now,
SPEAKER_02 (06:58):
you also taught at the CARE Center, working with
young mothers to buildlarge-scale sculpture.
What did those creativecollaborations reveal about the
power of art in non-traditionallearning environments?
SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
So one of the things that was super cool about that
project was working at scale.
So often, if we're in highschool or whatever, we do work
in a scale that fits on a table,what can fit in your art class.
And particularly for these youngwomen who have stepped away from
a traditional high school, manyof them express sort of feeling
invisible.
They're no longer connected tothat experience that their peers
(07:36):
had, that they had been movingthrough in their high school
trajectory.
And there were the cohort ofother young moms, which is
incredibly bolstering andmeaningful.
And so to work at scale in thefirst project I did is that we
created a mobile that wasinstalled at the Kittredge
Center at Holyoke CommunityCollege.
Interestingly enough, and Ididn't know this until our
(07:57):
installation site was all workedout and everything, it actually
hangs adjacent to the classroomwhere students go to take the
HiSET, which is the equivalent,the test for the GED.
So to take up space in aninstitution of higher education
when you have stepped back fromthe traditional track was
another way of taking up space,having a presence.
(08:17):
I get chills.
I just
SPEAKER_02 (08:18):
get chills listening to that because you're giving
these young women an opportunityto see within themselves this
power to create something thatthen can be installed and
inspire others.
And the fact that it's adjacentor across the hall from where
you take your, I mean, that tome, there's like no coincidence,
(08:43):
a next level transformation withthat particular piece.
Cassandra, you've moved fluidlyacross worlds from nonprofit
systems to grassroots spaces,from youth education to legacy
building.
How do you reconcile the tensionbetween imaginations and
infrastructure between what theheart wants to create and what
(09:06):
the systems will support?
SPEAKER_01 (09:07):
Well,
SPEAKER_02 (09:07):
that's a
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
really challenging
SPEAKER_02 (09:08):
question.
SPEAKER_01 (09:09):
So in my experience, there's a lot of will within
systems.
Individuals within systems wantto make things happen.
And it's about finding the otherhumans who are passionate about
doing something a little bitdifferent.
I borrow the lottery slogan, youcan't win if you don't play,
right?
So you might as well ask,Because you might get a yes.
(09:31):
If you don't ask, it's a no.
And just try, right?
And so if 80% of the timesomething good happens, that's
so much better than making noeffort at all.
Even if 20% of the time you geta yes, you just might as well
give it a shot.
Maybe some of that is about likedeveloping a somewhat thick
skin.
Like no doesn't mean your ideais bad.
It just means like thatparticular infrastructure won't
(09:53):
support it.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
or won't support it right now,or that's not the right
collaborator, you know, and justkeep like, keep being a pest.
SPEAKER_02 (10:05):
Well, I think too, it's like someone with a really
strong vision, you know, there'sthis other impulse that's
driving you that's notnecessarily just, I want to do
this thing because it means somuch more than what you do as an
individual.
It's really to help support somany others.
And so I think that, perhapsgives you a little more boost to
(10:27):
ask the question.
Whereas some people may not askthe question at all.
It's like, oh, well, well, thatwas that.
But you're like, no, wait, wewill find somebody else who
might have that same idea.
Who knows?
Now that brings me to Bombix,because this is now your current
beautiful project in the world.
And first of all, I wanted toknow how the concept of Bombix
(10:50):
Center for Arts and Equity cameto be.
SPEAKER_01 (10:52):
Sure.
Without sounding too woo, thebuilding spoke to me.
She would not leave me alone.
So describe to our listenerswhat that building is.
Bombix is a historic churchproperty.
So there's the church structure,which was built in 1861.
There's a parish hall that'sconnected by this middle sort of
(11:15):
piece of mid 20th centuryarchitecture.
We have a commercial kitchen.
We have a preschool that's beenhere for 75 years.
We are home to twocongregations, both the original
Congregationalist Christiancongregation, and then the
Reformed Synagogue, Beta Havah,has been here for about 30
years.
(11:35):
I know, amazing.
So I describe us as a chimera.
We're all the things.
UNKNOWN (11:40):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (11:40):
And it's actually wonderful having all of that
together.
I will say my thinking aroundcommunity, around mutual aid,
about arts as sacred practicehas really been informed by my
interactions with our two faithleaders here.
SPEAKER_00 (11:56):
That
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
would be Rabbi Ricky Kosovsky and Pastor Marissa
Egerstrom.
And there's this interestingsynergy that happens because
we're all in the business ofuplifting the human spirit.
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
And
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
that can be through ritual, that can be through
interactions with the arts, thatcan be through a shared
community meal.
And I think one of the thingsthat's really come to the fore
for me in my relationship withthe two faith leaders is how do
we process more difficultemotions?
How do we hold grief?
(12:34):
How do we work with thatproductively?
You know, and church is like theNew York subway, the church and
the synagogue.
It's one of those few spaceswhere folks of various
socioeconomic and otheridentities interact on a regular
basis.
SPEAKER_00 (12:54):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
and can come together around a variety of
interests.
So it's fascinating becauseactually most art spaces don't
have that quality, right?
Like you have a lot ofperforming arts centers that can
feel othering, right?
I have encountered this havingdone my work in affordable
housing.
People are like, oh no, that's,Like that gallery is not for me.
(13:14):
That art center is not for me.
You have to have a lot of moneyto go there or you have to have
your master's degree in arthistory to understand what's on
the walls.
So church and synagogue are oneof these places where you can
just show up.
And actually, if you're nottogether, you are encouraged to
show up.
Because there's something hereto nourish you rather than you
(13:36):
have to be perfectly okay tocome in here.
Could you tell us how you cameto that name, Bombix?
Yes.
So I'm going to rewind a littlebit and talk about how I came to
be here, how the buildingstalked me.
So a dear friend of mine,Priscilla Ross, was the music
director for the FlorenceCongregational Church for about
a decade.
(13:57):
And she was aware that thecongregation was getting older.
that they were having adifficult time maintaining the
building.
You know, they'd had a couple ofoffers because they'd realized
they needed to sell But therewasn't an offer on the table
that they really wanted.
They didn't want to sell to adeveloper who would turn it into
more expensive condos orwhatever.
And they also didn't want tosell it to another congregation
(14:19):
who would basically evict thetwo congregations and the
preschool.
They were clear that they reallywanted the building to remain.
They wanted the building toremain a resource to the
community and they wanted to beable to stay and they wanted
everyone else to be able tostay, which probably made this a
terrible real estate deal.
You're like, I wonder, hmm, Wow,that's a lot of limitations.
(14:42):
Take it.
You wouldn't normally buy ahouse if the other people get to
live there with you.
So Priscilla, this was in 2019,she got together a group of
folks to begin forming a boardand writing bylaws and doing all
the work of forming a nonprofitto then essentially buy the
church, buy the property fromthe congregation.
(15:04):
And then along came COVID.
And she works in healthcare.
And as you can imagine, shedidn't sleep.
Like she was working a ton andhad to step back from the
project and turned to me andsaid, would you like it?
And I said, oh, absolutely not.
Like in the spring of 2020, agathering space.
This is a terrible idea.
(15:25):
It's worse than buying a housewhere the people live in it.
Right.
But so I sat with it and thenthis thing would happen.
Every time I drove by thisbuilding, it would it would
shimmer.
There would be weird things thathappened with light, like clouds
would part or there would bethis ray of sunshine, like
something would happen everytime.
(15:46):
And, you know, I'd be like, no,no, no, not for me.
No, thank you.
I don't see that.
Go away.
And then the building startedshowing up in my dreams.
Boy, yeah.
It's like, wow, you are reallypersistent.
And in January of 21, I reachedout to the congregation, like,
(16:10):
you know, Priscilla facilitatedan introduction and I reached
out and I said, okay, like, I'mwilling to explore this.
This is not a yes.
This is, we're going to take afew steps.
I'm going to hire an architectto evaluate the building.
Like, let's actually figure outwhat this is.
Yeah.
And then lo and behold, weopened in October of 21.
And the
SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
rest is history.
And the rest is history.
Well, speaking of the building,so Bombeck sits on sacred
ground.
Once a gathering place forabolitionists and visionaries,
what does it feel like tosteward a space with that kind
of ancestral and politicalcharge?
Like, how do you listen to thespirit of the land and the
(16:53):
building
SPEAKER_01 (16:54):
itself?
That's been a really interestingprocess.
So Pastor Marissa has thisexpression that she uses to
describe the energy here calledthe bright light of Bombix.
So before there was ever achurch, this land was a place
where abolitionists gather todebate issues, you know, to
meet, to organize.
We don't have precise history,but it is my understanding that
(17:16):
prior to that in Indigenousfolks met here.
I mean, the land sits at the topof a plateau.
So there's about a 30-foot dropdown to the Mill River.
This was the physical high pointin the community.
And you could, if you imaginethat the buildings in the
neighborhood weren't here, youwould really have this
incredible expansive view.
The land has a spirit.
(17:37):
It has an energy all of its own.
If you go and you sit outsideunder the pines, or if you sit
in the sanctuary in theafternoon and you're bathed in
that golden light that comesthrough the windows.
I mean, my experience of it isanytime that I'm having just
like the worst day and, youknow, life feels like a lot.
There's this energy that comesthrough the ground.
(17:58):
Artists who performed here havedescribed feeling that like
you're on stage and there's anupsurge.
There's a thing that happens.
You can feel it.
When you stand on stage, you canlook out the doors and you see
the statue of Sojourner Truth inthe parklet across the street.
I feel as though I am theimperfect steward of this place.
My job is to begin.
My job is to get the plane inthe air.
(18:21):
We're in the process ofpurchasing the building from the
congregation, which means we'vestabilized the lives of the
folks who have been here fordecades.
You know, we're bringing in thearts programming.
That's my goal.
I don't want to be one of thosefounders who dies at her desk.
I also don't think that I havethe best ideas that last
(18:42):
forever.
I have this weird practicalskill set.
I can probably do 10 years ofthis and stabilize the building,
stabilize my congregations.
Yeah.
Which is kind of like openingthe door.
There's something that's goingto come after my time here.
I don't know what that is, butThere's a lot of nuts and bolts
stuff that needs to happen, andI like that.
SPEAKER_02 (19:06):
You're definitely a problem solver.
You definitely go in there andyou're like, all right, I'm a
fixer.
I could do this.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And the tenacity, which I think,you know, the tenacity and grit
has to come with that becauseyou can have a vision, but not
have the drive and the grit tokeep it going through.
And it's something about whenyou think about the Bombix moth.
(19:29):
I'd love to speak about that ifyou could.
SPEAKER_01 (19:32):
That whole origin story was leading up to the fact
that in choosing a name for thisplace, Bombix refers to Bombix
mori, which is the silk moththat was imported to this area
in the 18th by a group ofradical abolitionists who were
really looking to create adifferent solution for sourcing
fabric.
(19:52):
so that they weren't relying onsouthern slave-grown cotton.
These folks also started a sugarbeet farming operation, you
know, again, rejectingslave-grown sugar.
So that fusion of like art andecology and economy was really
interesting to me.
To import silk moths meant youalso had to import mulberry
trees because that's all thoselittle critters will eat.
(20:14):
And when you walk around thevalley, you see them everywhere,
right?
Every third yard has a mulberrysapling in it.
And those plants are hereBecause of this desire for
social change and the socialchange, like the mechanism for
that was about introducing a newfiber.
So I just love that, like thelandscape change, because we're
trying to implement new socialway of being in the world.
(20:37):
Well,
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
it's interesting because you work with artists,
faith leaders, housingadvocates, and youth educators.
What have these cross-sectorcollaborations taught you about
what communities truly need fromtheir cultural institutions
right now, like Bombix?
SPEAKER_01 (20:55):
The big thing is a sense of belonging.
I think we certainly needed thatbefore the pandemic, but after
we all spent far too long inisolation, we have needed to re
learned the fundamental tools ofinteracting with people who are
different from us or justinteracting.
I'll put a period there.
Yes.
Well, I mean, I think aboutyoung people whose early
(21:17):
educational experiences wereonline and how they're needing
to catch up on that socialdevelopment that would have
happened had they been inschool, but also for adults.
I think in a lot of professionalarenas, like work has become
very screen oriented
SPEAKER_00 (21:33):
and
SPEAKER_01 (21:35):
And that was, again, reinforced in the pandemic.
As we've emerged, people stillwork remotely or hybrid a lot,
which is really good, actually,I think, for many families and
individuals.
And yet, there is somethingabout being in person in your
workplace where you have tointeract with the people around
you and negotiate conflict ordifference.
(21:59):
I mean, not just negativethings.
There's also accomplishment andjoy to celebrate.
But Mm-hmm.
(22:26):
Whatever.
It's really easy to choose yoursubgroup and stay with people
who are like-minded.
And again, the thing that'sreally interesting about spaces
of worship, there can be aspectrum of belief, there can be
a spectrum of economicdiversity, there can be a
spectrum of life experience.
And so that's, in this project,what feels really different
(22:48):
about bringing arts into a spacewhere we are also setting up the
conditions for everybody to betogether.
whether that's the Sundaypotlucks or any of the different
things that are happening, totry to re-knit the fiber of the
community and maybe give us sometools for handling that
(23:08):
friction.
It's not bad or wrong for peopleto be different, right?
And when we meet someone for thefirst time, how do we...
How do we navigate aconversation where we are moving
toward like shared experience orpassion or what have you instead
of navigating toward difference,which is really easy to do
(23:31):
online.
And you're still
SPEAKER_02 (23:32):
honoring the initial purpose of what you have called
a vessel.
Bombix is just not a venue, buta vessel.
And so as a place of gatheringand community and speaking like
this was a this was a stump.
for some, a place to expressideas and to inspire others to
(23:53):
act.
towards certain injustices,perhaps, or certain concepts
that may be challenging to some.
When you program for Bombex andyou curate events that perhaps
challenge social norms or holdspiritual weight, how do you
discern the difference between agood idea and a necessary
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
one?
I might frame the distinction alittle bit different.
I think good ideas andnecessary, they might be rather
closely aligned.
One example is when we showfilms, we always have a talkback
afterwards.
We screened Julia Mintz'sdocumentary Four Winters a
(24:35):
little over a year ago, which itwas really important afterwards
to have a conversation about thedifferent dimensions of the
Holocaust and talk about some ofthe really challenging things
that were expressed in thatfilm.
And Like create a space forprocess, because I think it's
not enough to raise reallychallenging material and then
(24:56):
kick people out.
When we screened Kama Ennis'sfilm, there was actually a
fascinating conversation.
Her piece was around how about2% of doctors in this country
are Black women.
and what that means in terms ofthe quality of care that people
of color are receiving.
(25:17):
And in particular, focusing onBlack maternal health.
And if you don't have apractitioner who looks like you
and who has had your lifeexperiences, you're just at this
tremendous level of risk.
So be able to share that in thiscommunity was really important,
particularly as healthcare isone of the top three industries
here.
And then have a really meatycommunity dialogue, like not
(25:40):
everyone sort of virtuesignaling and saying what they
feel they should, but sharingexperiences and sharing that
maybe that's not something thatthey were aware of and how that
has reframed theirunderstanding.
I find
SPEAKER_02 (25:52):
as I look through the programming and I've
experienced the programmingmyself at Bombex on how you
bring so many differentperspectives, either through
music, through spoken word,through film, through visual,
through dance performance,through through working with
children, through working withthe community.
There's so many differentperspectives that you open up in
(26:15):
this space, which in itself islike a gateway or portal for
transformation because it allowspeople to experience it in what
you would consider a safe space.
You're being held in this spacein a way where there's no worry.
You know, all is well.
We are here to support you andto hear you.
(26:36):
And to see you.
And I think very few places dothat nowadays because it's
usually like you were saying,exclusionary.
We're like, well, do you havethis criteria?
Okay, welcome in.
Do you have this criteria?
Okay, we'll welcome you in.
Bombex has now become this openspace where all is welcome.
And it's such a beautifulcommunity asset.
I feel like all communitiesshould have a Bombex in the
(26:59):
center of their village.
Like I really do.
It's the heart of the village,right?
Bombex is a place ofconversation.
So if you think about honoringthe past while holding open
space for what's next, what kindof legacy are you consciously
trying to shape both as a leaderof this organization and as a
(27:19):
human being in this moment inhistory?
SPEAKER_01 (27:21):
It's really making sure that the container endures,
that some days it isheartbreaking that the container
You know, the folks who builtthis structure were
abolitionists.
They were working for racialjustice as they understood it in
the 1860s, right?
And the congregation was radicalin its moment because women were
(27:43):
full voting members.
It also took nine Christiandenominations to come together
to form the congregation to getthis project to happen.
You know, 160 years ago, therewas a group of people who were
concerned with racial equity,gender equity, and religious
tolerance.
And we are still banging away atthat.
We're not done.
And we also understand that verydifferently today than 160 years
(28:07):
ago, right?
Those issues are still real andpotent and they show up
differently in contemporarysociety.
So it is my hope that 160 yearsfrom today, we will have a
fuller and more nuancedunderstanding and that hopefully
we will have moved towardequity.
But I suspect that like as humanbeings, if not those issues,
(28:28):
we'll be chewing on somethinglike the project of human
evolution and understanding.
Like it's not done.
I don't think there's an endpoint.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
No, we're constantly evolving.
And that's kind of the beauty,right?
In that evolution, we learn andgrow.
I mean, that's really why I feellike we're here to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (28:46):
Yeah.
And we get comfortable withnon-closure.
We are going to do this work inour brief lifetimes.
And then after us, some folkswill come along and they will
continue those things forward.
And can we be okay with the factthat we have a few decades to do
something meaningful and thatwe're not going to finish?
Like we're going to do as muchas we can and then we're going
(29:08):
to hand it off and then the nextgeneration takes it after us.
So I feel like my stewardship ofthe space is like to create the
container, the physicalcontainer, but also like the
community container for that.
Like some of it is about, youknow, setting the tone and
social norms for how we havechallenging conversations here.
(29:30):
inviting you know a wide arrayof artists and thinkers and
filmmakers and dancers andspeakers and everybody to be
here and just like uplift themultiplicity of human experience
like it's not binary there's nolike right or wrong and can we
just hold it all and appreciateit in its kaleidoscopic beauty
or kaleidoscopic ugliness that'sin there too like That's the
(29:53):
work.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
And you're doing it in this way that has touched so
many and that offers so manyopportunities to consider these
ways.
Cassandra Holden, thank you forthe depth, the heart, the
clarity you brought to thisconversation.
The way you lead with intuition,integrity, and really deep
(30:17):
listening is a powerful reminderthat cultural work is soul work.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(30:52):
do incredible things.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
It's my honor to do this work.
It's my honor to be inconversation with you.
I also want to call out that itwas an absolute delight to work
with you bringing your firstmobile project into the
Wayfinders headquarters inSpringfield.
That was
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
incredible.
I still think about thatproject.
It was a beautiful process theentire time and the fact that it
still moves on is
SPEAKER_01 (31:19):
And the kismet of like, you picked a color
palette, and lo and behold,like, that's the thing that was
in the highway overpass of thebuilding next door.
And like, there's somethingabout art that's just magic.
Like, yes, when we're in thatintuitive space, we pull in all
these things without being awarein our conscious or left brain
planning mind.
(31:40):
And that's part of what makesthings so deeply moving, right?
We're just artists and the workthat is created.
It's just so in it.
It's all knit together withoutbeing able to articulate like, I
chose this because.
It just
SPEAKER_00 (31:52):
comes into being.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
Well, this episode is a beautiful reminder that
when we lead with heart andtrust our inner hum, we don't
make good choices.
We make meaningful change.
Thanks so much for tuning intoday.
I'm so glad you spent this timewith me.
If something in this episoderesonated, feel free to share it
(32:15):
or pass it along to someone whomight need that little spark.
I'd also love to hear what cameup for you.
Send me a message or drop acomment on Instagram at
tohumishuman.
You can also find more episodesand updates at sonorouslight.com
or on your favorite podcastplatform.
(32:36):
Until next time, keep humming.
Hello and welcome.
It's Donabelle, your friend andhost of To Hum is Human, the
podcast where we explore thetransformative power of tuning
into our intuition to expressour passionate purpose.
Today's episode covers intuitiveleadership, leading with heart
and vision.
We're talking about what itmeans to lead not just with
(00:28):
strategy, but with spirit, tolisten, to feel, and to respond
from a place of rooted innerknowing.
I'm so thrilled to introduce mynext guest.
Cassandra Holden is theexecutive director of Bombic
Center for Arts and Equity inFlorence, Massachusetts, a
longtime producer of festivalsand multidisciplinary arts
(00:50):
events.
Cassandra has brought public artinto affordable housing
communities with Wayfinders,created collaborative sculpture
with students at the CareCenter, and helped launch Roke
House, a community art space inHolyoke.
Her work sits at theintersection of art, equity, and
intuitive leadership, creatingspaces where culture, community,
(01:14):
and spirit meet.
Welcome, Cassandra.
It's a pleasure to be here withyou.
Now, you've done suchthoughtful, integrative work at
the intersection of art andcommunity.
Your collaboration withWayfinders brought public art
into affordable housingdevelopments, inviting beauty
into everyday, often overlookedspaces.
(01:35):
What did that experience teachyou about the power of art to
reclaim dignity, identity, and asense of belonging?
SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
The decade that I did that work was deeply
meaningful.
I think when we think ofaffordable housing, we often
think of architecture that doesnot uplift the spirit.
There have been generations ofthinking about how we house
low-income people, and there's aphrase in the industry,
warehousing the poor.
We all know what that looks likein terms of architecture, in
(02:06):
terms of the grounds aroundthose types of properties, in
terms of the amenities that areoffered on those sites.
And I'm pleased to share that inrecent decades, like the
thinking around that haschanged.
And now we often see thoseprojects that integrate market
rate units as well as moreaffordable units.
So understanding sort of likethe New York subway, everyone in
(02:27):
New York takes a subwayregardless of income level.
And it's really important thatwe have that kind of social
mixing.
And then my work was reallyworking with artists to bring
work into those spaces becausethey can be undecorated, right?
And really we convey a sense ofdignity, of possibility, of
hopefulness when we bring artinto those spaces.
(02:48):
Like if you imagine any sort ofswank apartment building,
there's a Warhol, there's aDeSouvereau, There's a museum
quality piece in the lobby.
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
Creating that kind ofinteraction with art and
creativity when you first entera space really says a lot.
UNKNOWN (03:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
So that work was like close to my heart.
Also, one of the reasons thatwas deeply moving for me is that
my mother, who recently passed,you know, she lived in low
income senior housing.
You know, one of the beautifulthings that happened in that
space is that they invitedartists and members of the
community to display paintingswithin the building.
(03:30):
So this was artwork that wouldchange routinely.
And then my work was also deeplyinformed by the Bywater Arts
Loft, where my sister livedbriefly after Hurricane Katrina,
which was this incredibleproject in New Orleans where the
apartments themselves were verysimple, but there were large
spaces for artists to creatework, to display work, to put
(03:53):
together events.
And that was such a powerfultransformational project in that
community, particularly as, youknow, New Orleans was being
rebuilt with a lot of veryexpensive condos, right?
And a lot of artists who hadlived there for generations
weren't able to live in theheart of the city in the
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
same way.
Creating artist residenciesinside housing projects is rare.
What did you notice when artistswere invited into those spaces
with intention?
Like what shifted in the artistsor in the residents or in the
atmosphere itself?
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
So one project that comes to mind when working on
Live 155 in Northampton, whichsits right on Pleasant Street,
it's that big multi-story yellowbrick building.
We worked with the artistproject Paul Shule, who's a
local photographer.
And I collected oral historiesfrom those residents.
And he was in that space makingportraits of folks who lived
(04:47):
there.
And then we displayed that workat Historic Northampton and had
a series of talks andpresentations.
And it was an opportunity tocapture the full humanity.
I think we can project certainkinds of narratives onto the
folks who live in boardinghouses, in affordable housing.
And instead, we were able tocreate these portraits that were
(05:08):
incredibly nuanced and sharestories that might not otherwise
get out there.
And now those portraits, thosephotographs actually hang in the
lobbies.
The amazing thing about thatproject, too, is that Wayfinders
took a really sensitiveapproach.
They relocated everyone whenthey demolished Northampton
(05:29):
Lodging.
And then all of those residentsactually had the first
opportunity to come back intothe new building.
They worked with this amazingtransition counselor.
And believe it or not, like formany residents, it was actually
more affordable for them to comeback into the new building that
was better appointed and saferand more beautifully designed
(05:50):
than it had been to be in thisweekly lodging situation.
There was actually one gentlemanwho had been living there for 30
years.
Wow.
you know, worked as a chef atthe Blue Bonnet Diner.
It was just incredible to hearthese stories like and to be
able to celebrate these folks.
(06:10):
Right.
And see their faces, like bringthem into the day-to-day
interactions with everybody inthe building.
SPEAKER_02 (06:17):
That must be so empowering for them too, because
they probably would neverimagine themselves being in
portraits on the wall,decorating this beautiful new
structure that they now areliving in.
That's something so meaningfulin so many levels.
And to get press coverage aroundthat, right?
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
You know, during one of the interviews, someone said
to me, like, I'm not famous.
Why would why would a reporterwant to talk to me?
Why would anyone want to talk?
Like, why would anyone want totake my picture?
Yeah.
No, actually, you are important.
Your story is valuable.
This is part of our community.
You deserve to be here as muchas you know.
anyone who makes the news allthe time.
Absolutely.
Now,
SPEAKER_02 (06:58):
you also taught at the CARE Center, working with
young mothers to buildlarge-scale sculpture.
What did those creativecollaborations reveal about the
power of art in non-traditionallearning environments?
SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
So one of the things that was super cool about that
project was working at scale.
So often, if we're in highschool or whatever, we do work
in a scale that fits on a table,what can fit in your art class.
And particularly for these youngwomen who have stepped away from
a traditional high school, manyof them express sort of feeling
invisible.
They're no longer connected tothat experience that their peers
(07:36):
had, that they had been movingthrough in their high school
trajectory.
And there were the cohort ofother young moms, which is
incredibly bolstering andmeaningful.
And so to work at scale in thefirst project I did is that we
created a mobile that wasinstalled at the Kittredge
Center at Holyoke CommunityCollege.
Interestingly enough, and Ididn't know this until our
(07:57):
installation site was all workedout and everything, it actually
hangs adjacent to the classroomwhere students go to take the
HiSET, which is the equivalent,the test for the GED.
So to take up space in aninstitution of higher education
when you have stepped back fromthe traditional track was
another way of taking up space,having a presence.
(08:17):
I get chills.
I just
SPEAKER_02 (08:18):
get chills listening to that because you're giving
these young women an opportunityto see within themselves this
power to create something thatthen can be installed and
inspire others.
And the fact that it's adjacentor across the hall from where
you take your, I mean, that tome, there's like no coincidence,
(08:43):
a next level transformation withthat particular piece.
Cassandra, you've moved fluidlyacross worlds from nonprofit
systems to grassroots spaces,from youth education to legacy
building.
How do you reconcile the tensionbetween imaginations and
infrastructure between what theheart wants to create and what
(09:06):
the systems will support?
SPEAKER_01 (09:07):
Well,
SPEAKER_02 (09:07):
that's a
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
really challenging
SPEAKER_02 (09:08):
question.
SPEAKER_01 (09:09):
So in my experience, there's a lot of will within
systems.
Individuals within systems wantto make things happen.
And it's about finding the otherhumans who are passionate about
doing something a little bitdifferent.
I borrow the lottery slogan, youcan't win if you don't play,
right?
So you might as well ask,Because you might get a yes.
(09:31):
If you don't ask, it's a no.
And just try, right?
And so if 80% of the timesomething good happens, that's
so much better than making noeffort at all.
Even if 20% of the time you geta yes, you just might as well
give it a shot.
Maybe some of that is about likedeveloping a somewhat thick
skin.
Like no doesn't mean your ideais bad.
It just means like thatparticular infrastructure won't
(09:53):
support it.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
or won't support it right now,or that's not the right
collaborator, you know, and justkeep like, keep being a pest.
SPEAKER_02 (10:05):
Well, I think too, it's like someone with a really
strong vision, you know, there'sthis other impulse that's
driving you that's notnecessarily just, I want to do
this thing because it means somuch more than what you do as an
individual.
It's really to help support somany others.
And so I think that, perhapsgives you a little more boost to
(10:27):
ask the question.
Whereas some people may not askthe question at all.
It's like, oh, well, well, thatwas that.
But you're like, no, wait, wewill find somebody else who
might have that same idea.
Who knows?
Now that brings me to Bombix,because this is now your current
beautiful project in the world.
And first of all, I wanted toknow how the concept of Bombix
(10:50):
Center for Arts and Equity cameto be.
SPEAKER_01 (10:52):
Sure.
Without sounding too woo, thebuilding spoke to me.
She would not leave me alone.
So describe to our listenerswhat that building is.
Bombix is a historic churchproperty.
So there's the church structure,which was built in 1861.
There's a parish hall that'sconnected by this middle sort of
(11:15):
piece of mid 20th centuryarchitecture.
We have a commercial kitchen.
We have a preschool that's beenhere for 75 years.
We are home to twocongregations, both the original
Congregationalist Christiancongregation, and then the
Reformed Synagogue, Beta Havah,has been here for about 30
years.
(11:35):
I know, amazing.
So I describe us as a chimera.
We're all the things.
UNKNOWN (11:40):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (11:40):
And it's actually wonderful having all of that
together.
I will say my thinking aroundcommunity, around mutual aid,
about arts as sacred practicehas really been informed by my
interactions with our two faithleaders here.
SPEAKER_00 (11:56):
That
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
would be Rabbi Ricky Kosovsky and Pastor Marissa
Egerstrom.
And there's this interestingsynergy that happens because
we're all in the business ofuplifting the human spirit.
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
And
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
that can be through ritual, that can be through
interactions with the arts, thatcan be through a shared
community meal.
And I think one of the thingsthat's really come to the fore
for me in my relationship withthe two faith leaders is how do
we process more difficultemotions?
How do we hold grief?
(12:34):
How do we work with thatproductively?
You know, and church is like theNew York subway, the church and
the synagogue.
It's one of those few spaceswhere folks of various
socioeconomic and otheridentities interact on a regular
basis.
SPEAKER_00 (12:54):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
and can come together around a variety of
interests.
So it's fascinating becauseactually most art spaces don't
have that quality, right?
Like you have a lot ofperforming arts centers that can
feel othering, right?
I have encountered this havingdone my work in affordable
housing.
People are like, oh no, that's,Like that gallery is not for me.
(13:14):
That art center is not for me.
You have to have a lot of moneyto go there or you have to have
your master's degree in arthistory to understand what's on
the walls.
So church and synagogue are oneof these places where you can
just show up.
And actually, if you're nottogether, you are encouraged to
show up.
Because there's something hereto nourish you rather than you
(13:36):
have to be perfectly okay tocome in here.
Could you tell us how you cameto that name, Bombix?
Yes.
So I'm going to rewind a littlebit and talk about how I came to
be here, how the buildingstalked me.
So a dear friend of mine,Priscilla Ross, was the music
director for the FlorenceCongregational Church for about
a decade.
(13:57):
And she was aware that thecongregation was getting older.
that they were having adifficult time maintaining the
building.
You know, they'd had a couple ofoffers because they'd realized
they needed to sell But therewasn't an offer on the table
that they really wanted.
They didn't want to sell to adeveloper who would turn it into
more expensive condos orwhatever.
And they also didn't want tosell it to another congregation
(14:19):
who would basically evict thetwo congregations and the
preschool.
They were clear that they reallywanted the building to remain.
They wanted the building toremain a resource to the
community and they wanted to beable to stay and they wanted
everyone else to be able tostay, which probably made this a
terrible real estate deal.
You're like, I wonder, hmm, Wow,that's a lot of limitations.
(14:42):
Take it.
You wouldn't normally buy ahouse if the other people get to
live there with you.
So Priscilla, this was in 2019,she got together a group of
folks to begin forming a boardand writing bylaws and doing all
the work of forming a nonprofitto then essentially buy the
church, buy the property fromthe congregation.
(15:04):
And then along came COVID.
And she works in healthcare.
And as you can imagine, shedidn't sleep.
Like she was working a ton andhad to step back from the
project and turned to me andsaid, would you like it?
And I said, oh, absolutely not.
Like in the spring of 2020, agathering space.
This is a terrible idea.
(15:25):
It's worse than buying a housewhere the people live in it.
Right.
But so I sat with it and thenthis thing would happen.
Every time I drove by thisbuilding, it would it would
shimmer.
There would be weird things thathappened with light, like clouds
would part or there would bethis ray of sunshine, like
something would happen everytime.
(15:46):
And, you know, I'd be like, no,no, no, not for me.
No, thank you.
I don't see that.
Go away.
And then the building startedshowing up in my dreams.
Boy, yeah.
It's like, wow, you are reallypersistent.
And in January of 21, I reachedout to the congregation, like,
(16:10):
you know, Priscilla facilitatedan introduction and I reached
out and I said, okay, like, I'mwilling to explore this.
This is not a yes.
This is, we're going to take afew steps.
I'm going to hire an architectto evaluate the building.
Like, let's actually figure outwhat this is.
Yeah.
And then lo and behold, weopened in October of 21.
And the
SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
rest is history.
And the rest is history.
Well, speaking of the building,so Bombeck sits on sacred
ground.
Once a gathering place forabolitionists and visionaries,
what does it feel like tosteward a space with that kind
of ancestral and politicalcharge?
Like, how do you listen to thespirit of the land and the
(16:53):
building
SPEAKER_01 (16:54):
itself?
That's been a really interestingprocess.
So Pastor Marissa has thisexpression that she uses to
describe the energy here calledthe bright light of Bombix.
So before there was ever achurch, this land was a place
where abolitionists gather todebate issues, you know, to
meet, to organize.
We don't have precise history,but it is my understanding that
(17:16):
prior to that in Indigenousfolks met here.
I mean, the land sits at the topof a plateau.
So there's about a 30-foot dropdown to the Mill River.
This was the physical high pointin the community.
And you could, if you imaginethat the buildings in the
neighborhood weren't here, youwould really have this
incredible expansive view.
The land has a spirit.
(17:37):
It has an energy all of its own.
If you go and you sit outsideunder the pines, or if you sit
in the sanctuary in theafternoon and you're bathed in
that golden light that comesthrough the windows.
I mean, my experience of it isanytime that I'm having just
like the worst day and, youknow, life feels like a lot.
There's this energy that comesthrough the ground.
(17:58):
Artists who performed here havedescribed feeling that like
you're on stage and there's anupsurge.
There's a thing that happens.
You can feel it.
When you stand on stage, you canlook out the doors and you see
the statue of Sojourner Truth inthe parklet across the street.
I feel as though I am theimperfect steward of this place.
My job is to begin.
My job is to get the plane inthe air.
(18:21):
We're in the process ofpurchasing the building from the
congregation, which means we'vestabilized the lives of the
folks who have been here fordecades.
You know, we're bringing in thearts programming.
That's my goal.
I don't want to be one of thosefounders who dies at her desk.
I also don't think that I havethe best ideas that last
(18:42):
forever.
I have this weird practicalskill set.
I can probably do 10 years ofthis and stabilize the building,
stabilize my congregations.
Yeah.
Which is kind of like openingthe door.
There's something that's goingto come after my time here.
I don't know what that is, butThere's a lot of nuts and bolts
stuff that needs to happen, andI like that.
SPEAKER_02 (19:06):
You're definitely a problem solver.
You definitely go in there andyou're like, all right, I'm a
fixer.
I could do this.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And the tenacity, which I think,you know, the tenacity and grit
has to come with that becauseyou can have a vision, but not
have the drive and the grit tokeep it going through.
And it's something about whenyou think about the Bombix moth.
(19:29):
I'd love to speak about that ifyou could.
SPEAKER_01 (19:32):
That whole origin story was leading up to the fact
that in choosing a name for thisplace, Bombix refers to Bombix
mori, which is the silk moththat was imported to this area
in the 18th by a group ofradical abolitionists who were
really looking to create adifferent solution for sourcing
fabric.
(19:52):
so that they weren't relying onsouthern slave-grown cotton.
These folks also started a sugarbeet farming operation, you
know, again, rejectingslave-grown sugar.
So that fusion of like art andecology and economy was really
interesting to me.
To import silk moths meant youalso had to import mulberry
trees because that's all thoselittle critters will eat.
(20:14):
And when you walk around thevalley, you see them everywhere,
right?
Every third yard has a mulberrysapling in it.
And those plants are hereBecause of this desire for
social change and the socialchange, like the mechanism for
that was about introducing a newfiber.
So I just love that, like thelandscape change, because we're
trying to implement new socialway of being in the world.
(20:37):
Well,
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
it's interesting because you work with artists,
faith leaders, housingadvocates, and youth educators.
What have these cross-sectorcollaborations taught you about
what communities truly need fromtheir cultural institutions
right now, like Bombix?
SPEAKER_01 (20:55):
The big thing is a sense of belonging.
I think we certainly needed thatbefore the pandemic, but after
we all spent far too long inisolation, we have needed to re
learned the fundamental tools ofinteracting with people who are
different from us or justinteracting.
I'll put a period there.
Yes.
Well, I mean, I think aboutyoung people whose early
(21:17):
educational experiences wereonline and how they're needing
to catch up on that socialdevelopment that would have
happened had they been inschool, but also for adults.
I think in a lot of professionalarenas, like work has become
very screen oriented
SPEAKER_00 (21:33):
and
SPEAKER_01 (21:35):
And that was, again, reinforced in the pandemic.
As we've emerged, people stillwork remotely or hybrid a lot,
which is really good, actually,I think, for many families and
individuals.
And yet, there is somethingabout being in person in your
workplace where you have tointeract with the people around
you and negotiate conflict ordifference.
(21:59):
I mean, not just negativethings.
There's also accomplishment andjoy to celebrate.
But Mm-hmm.
(22:26):
Whatever.
It's really easy to choose yoursubgroup and stay with people
who are like-minded.
And again, the thing that'sreally interesting about spaces
of worship, there can be aspectrum of belief, there can be
a spectrum of economicdiversity, there can be a
spectrum of life experience.
And so that's, in this project,what feels really different
(22:48):
about bringing arts into a spacewhere we are also setting up the
conditions for everybody to betogether.
whether that's the Sundaypotlucks or any of the different
things that are happening, totry to re-knit the fiber of the
community and maybe give us sometools for handling that
(23:08):
friction.
It's not bad or wrong for peopleto be different, right?
And when we meet someone for thefirst time, how do we...
How do we navigate aconversation where we are moving
toward like shared experience orpassion or what have you instead
of navigating toward difference,which is really easy to do
(23:31):
online.
And you're still
SPEAKER_02 (23:32):
honoring the initial purpose of what you have called
a vessel.
Bombix is just not a venue, buta vessel.
And so as a place of gatheringand community and speaking like
this was a this was a stump.
for some, a place to expressideas and to inspire others to
(23:53):
act.
towards certain injustices,perhaps, or certain concepts
that may be challenging to some.
When you program for Bombex andyou curate events that perhaps
challenge social norms or holdspiritual weight, how do you
discern the difference between agood idea and a necessary
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
one?
I might frame the distinction alittle bit different.
I think good ideas andnecessary, they might be rather
closely aligned.
One example is when we showfilms, we always have a talkback
afterwards.
We screened Julia Mintz'sdocumentary Four Winters a
(24:35):
little over a year ago, which itwas really important afterwards
to have a conversation about thedifferent dimensions of the
Holocaust and talk about some ofthe really challenging things
that were expressed in thatfilm.
And Like create a space forprocess, because I think it's
not enough to raise reallychallenging material and then
(24:56):
kick people out.
When we screened Kama Ennis'sfilm, there was actually a
fascinating conversation.
Her piece was around how about2% of doctors in this country
are Black women.
and what that means in terms ofthe quality of care that people
of color are receiving.
(25:17):
And in particular, focusing onBlack maternal health.
And if you don't have apractitioner who looks like you
and who has had your lifeexperiences, you're just at this
tremendous level of risk.
So be able to share that in thiscommunity was really important,
particularly as healthcare isone of the top three industries
here.
And then have a really meatycommunity dialogue, like not
(25:40):
everyone sort of virtuesignaling and saying what they
feel they should, but sharingexperiences and sharing that
maybe that's not something thatthey were aware of and how that
has reframed theirunderstanding.
I find
SPEAKER_02 (25:52):
as I look through the programming and I've
experienced the programmingmyself at Bombex on how you
bring so many differentperspectives, either through
music, through spoken word,through film, through visual,
through dance performance,through through working with
children, through working withthe community.
There's so many differentperspectives that you open up in
(26:15):
this space, which in itself islike a gateway or portal for
transformation because it allowspeople to experience it in what
you would consider a safe space.
You're being held in this spacein a way where there's no worry.
You know, all is well.
We are here to support you andto hear you.
(26:36):
And to see you.
And I think very few places dothat nowadays because it's
usually like you were saying,exclusionary.
We're like, well, do you havethis criteria?
Okay, welcome in.
Do you have this criteria?
Okay, we'll welcome you in.
Bombex has now become this openspace where all is welcome.
And it's such a beautifulcommunity asset.
I feel like all communitiesshould have a Bombex in the
(26:59):
center of their village.
Like I really do.
It's the heart of the village,right?
Bombex is a place ofconversation.
So if you think about honoringthe past while holding open
space for what's next, what kindof legacy are you consciously
trying to shape both as a leaderof this organization and as a
(27:19):
human being in this moment inhistory?
SPEAKER_01 (27:21):
It's really making sure that the container endures,
that some days it isheartbreaking that the container
You know, the folks who builtthis structure were
abolitionists.
They were working for racialjustice as they understood it in
the 1860s, right?
And the congregation was radicalin its moment because women were
(27:43):
full voting members.
It also took nine Christiandenominations to come together
to form the congregation to getthis project to happen.
You know, 160 years ago, therewas a group of people who were
concerned with racial equity,gender equity, and religious
tolerance.
And we are still banging away atthat.
We're not done.
And we also understand that verydifferently today than 160 years
(28:07):
ago, right?
Those issues are still real andpotent and they show up
differently in contemporarysociety.
So it is my hope that 160 yearsfrom today, we will have a
fuller and more nuancedunderstanding and that hopefully
we will have moved towardequity.
But I suspect that like as humanbeings, if not those issues,
(28:28):
we'll be chewing on somethinglike the project of human
evolution and understanding.
Like it's not done.
I don't think there's an endpoint.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
No, we're constantly evolving.
And that's kind of the beauty,right?
In that evolution, we learn andgrow.
I mean, that's really why I feellike we're here to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (28:46):
Yeah.
And we get comfortable withnon-closure.
We are going to do this work inour brief lifetimes.
And then after us, some folkswill come along and they will
continue those things forward.
And can we be okay with the factthat we have a few decades to do
something meaningful and thatwe're not going to finish?
Like we're going to do as muchas we can and then we're going
(29:08):
to hand it off and then the nextgeneration takes it after us.
So I feel like my stewardship ofthe space is like to create the
container, the physicalcontainer, but also like the
community container for that.
Like some of it is about, youknow, setting the tone and
social norms for how we havechallenging conversations here.
(29:30):
inviting you know a wide arrayof artists and thinkers and
filmmakers and dancers andspeakers and everybody to be
here and just like uplift themultiplicity of human experience
like it's not binary there's nolike right or wrong and can we
just hold it all and appreciateit in its kaleidoscopic beauty
or kaleidoscopic ugliness that'sin there too like That's the
(29:53):
work.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
And you're doing it in this way that has touched so
many and that offers so manyopportunities to consider these
ways.
Cassandra Holden, thank you forthe depth, the heart, the
clarity you brought to thisconversation.
The way you lead with intuition,integrity, and really deep
(30:17):
listening is a powerful reminderthat cultural work is soul work.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(30:52):
do incredible things.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
It's my honor to do this work.
It's my honor to be inconversation with you.
I also want to call out that itwas an absolute delight to work
with you bringing your firstmobile project into the
Wayfinders headquarters inSpringfield.
That was
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
incredible.
I still think about thatproject.
It was a beautiful process theentire time and the fact that it
still moves on is
SPEAKER_01 (31:19):
And the kismet of like, you picked a color
palette, and lo and behold,like, that's the thing that was
in the highway overpass of thebuilding next door.
And like, there's somethingabout art that's just magic.
Like, yes, when we're in thatintuitive space, we pull in all
these things without being awarein our conscious or left brain
planning mind.
(31:40):
And that's part of what makesthings so deeply moving, right?
We're just artists and the workthat is created.
It's just so in it.
It's all knit together withoutbeing able to articulate like, I
chose this because.
It just
SPEAKER_00 (31:52):
comes into being.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
Well, this episode is a beautiful reminder that
when we lead with heart andtrust our inner hum, we don't
make good choices.
We make meaningful change.
Thanks so much for tuning intoday.
I'm so glad you spent this timewith me.
If something in this episoderesonated, feel free to share it
(32:15):
or pass it along to someone whomight need that little spark.
I'd also love to hear what cameup for you.
Send me a message or drop acomment on Instagram at
tohumishuman.
You can also find more episodesand updates at sonorouslight.com
or on your favorite podcastplatform.
(32:36):
Until next time, keep humming.
Popular Podcasts
Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.