July 31, 2025 • 38 mins
This week, I’m joined by a truly visionary guest who’s transforming how we think about conflict, creativity, and intuition. Gabrielle Hartley, Esq., is a pioneer in family law and innovative dispute resolution. She’s the co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Better Parenting Plan, where she’s leading the development of Virtual Gabby—an AI-powered online mediator designed to help parents craft fair, affordable parenting plans with ease and compassion.
Driven by a bold vision for expanding access to justice, Gabrielle is harnessing technology to transform how families navigate separation and co-parenting. She’s the bestselling author of Better Apart and The Secret to Getting Along, and the creator of the Y.E.S. Method™—a transformative framework for turning conflict into cooperation, featured in her TEDx talk and national media.
In this conversation, we explore how tuning into your inner hum — even amid legal or emotional turmoil — can unlock clarity, compassion, and radical creativity. Gabrielle shares how she’s integrated her intuitive wisdom into a tech-driven platform, and how you can apply the same inner guidance to your own personal or professional crossroads.
Follow me on Instagram @ToHumisHuman and @sonorous.light555
Website: www.sonorouslight.com
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hello, friends.
It's me, Donna Bell, your hostof another episode of To Hum is
Human, the podcast where weexplore the transformative power
of tuning into our intuition toexpress our passionate purpose.
(00:20):
I'm so happy you're taking thetime to listen today.
This episode is all about theinner hum and your creativity.
And I have a truly inspiringguest who embodies the
intersection of innovation,intuition, and impact.
Whether you're navigatingthrough tough transitions or
simply trying to tune in moredeeply to your own inner wisdom,
(00:44):
today's episode is a beautifulreminder that our intuition,
when honored, can guide ustoward solutions that serve not
just ourselves but the people welove.
It's such an honor for me tointroduce my next guest.
Gabrielle Hartley Esquire is atrailblazer in family law and
(01:04):
dispute resolution.
She's the co-founder and chiefproduct officer of Better
Parenting Plan, where she'sbuilding Virtual Gabby, an AI
online mediator that helpsparents create fair and
affordable parenting plans.
With a bold vision for access tojustice, Gabrielle is using
(01:24):
technology to break down andbring compassion-driven conflict
resolution to familieseverywhere.
She's also the best-sellingauthor of Better Apart, also The
Secret to Getting Along, and thecreator of the YES Method,
Y-E-S, a powerful framework thatturns conflict into cooperation
(01:47):
and has been featured in herTEDx talk and national media.
Gabrielle's work is deeplyrooted in creativity, purpose,
and a belief and accessiblesolutions, making her the
perfect guest to explore today'sthemes.
Welcome Gabrielle.
Oh
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
my gosh, Donabelle, that was quite an introduction.
I've been on a lot of podcastsand that was really, I have a
lot to live up to.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
It's all you.
It's all you.
Well, you know, we know eachother personally and I've always
admired the way you trust yourinstincts and act on them.
And I wonder if your experienceand love of theater growing up
impacted how you live in thisflow.
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
Yeah, I mean, it may or it may be the other way
around.
It may be that the theater was agreat place for me to express
inner emotions that maybeweren't safe maybe to express in
other a home environment or inother places.
So yeah, I had a lot of refugeon the stage.
(02:52):
I was always a double thread.
I could kind of act and kind ofsing, but dancing, everybody's
going right and I'm going left.
So I stuck to the books.
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Well, growing up and with all kinds of issues that we
do grow up with in parenting andalso being a child of parents,
obviously, what's one beliefthat about parenting or conflict
or even justice that you onceheld, but had to release in
(03:21):
order to hear your inner truthmore clearly?
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
That's a really interesting question, Donabelle.
I have to think about that for aminute.
I think either by design or as Iam intuitively have a natural, I
don't know if it's a benefit ora burden, but I see other
people's points of view veryeasily, which is why mediation
was appropriate for me ratherthan litigation.
(03:47):
But I have really had to learnto listen to my instincts also
and learn to say no.
And I've become really good atsaying no.
And it's like, if you take onething away from me, like learn
the power of no and learn thepower of let me think about
that.
I'll get back to you later.
Because if you don't sayanything, people hear a yes, and
(04:10):
then you wind up in all kinds oftrouble.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
I think the power of no is actually an underused
power.
If you ever want to
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
practice with me.
SPEAKER_01 (04:18):
No.
So you've spent years in thelegal system, a space that's
deeply rooted in logic,structure, and precedent.
How did you begin to recognizeand trust the quieter, intuitive
voice that told you a morecompassionate path was possible?
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
So when I was practicing law, it was more...
Although I love to be anadvocate and I'm a very natural
advocate, I was really workinghard to suppress my creative
side.
I had studied designenvironmental analysis at
Cornell as an undergrad and Iwas raised by two artists.
And so for me, it was just moreleaning into who I already knew
(05:00):
I was, you know, and it's aharder path, the creative path,
because it's not always so clearhow you're going to find your
way forward.
career-wise, right?
I have been lucky.
I've been very fortunate to havea strong skill in divorce
mediation, which is one thing,but I do a lot of other things.
(05:22):
I'm creating this legal tech andit's not even legal tech.
It's actually more likemediation, human tech.
And I've written books and Ijust think it's a lot about
bravery.
I really...
didn't step away from litigationuntil I had Gwyneth Paltrow's
endorsement on Better Apart.
And that gave me, I know thatsounds totally silly, but that
(05:43):
was like a stamp of approvalthat really fed my confidence to
say, okay, like Gwynny says it'sgood.
And once, you know, when BetterApart hit the shelves and was
featured pretty widely, thatreally is what gave me the
confidence to step out of thebox that I had put myself in.
(06:04):
When I was younger, I had agoal, which was to be
mainstream.
I used to say that, you know, Iwanted to be like regular.
And, um, once my, my eldest sontold me I was so, I think he
called me like generic orsomething like that.
Like as an insult.
And I was like, like, I wasn't,it wasn't basic.
It was something even worse thanthis.
(06:25):
But, um, Yeah, I really, youknow, my parents had joint
custody when nobody had that.
We were like kind of weirdfamily.
You know, my parents were twodifferent religions.
I went to two different housesof worship.
The adults were always like,isn't this confusing for you?
And I was like, not so much forme, but maybe for you.
(06:45):
You know, like even as a kid, Ithought like, not really, this
is not confusing.
But yeah.
I just, I really cravedbelongingness and normalcy.
And so I think I built afortress almost around myself to
create like a safety net so thatI could feel more supported in
the world.
(07:05):
But as I got older and moreconfident and more comfortable,
In my own skin, as we all do,you know, like our skin maybe
isn't as good anymore, but ourconfidence is better.
So I guess I'll take it.
But yeah, I feel like it took mea long time to really lean into
myself.
SPEAKER_01 (07:23):
It's interesting that you had wanted to be so
normal as your goal.
when I'm just thinking you areso far from normal and that's
why I love you.
Like, that's really why I loveyou.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
Well, I just wanted to be normal.
Like, I just was like, you know,like I had friends who I'm
still, I have a really richgroup of friends from college
and law school.
And like, many of them will saylike, oh, you're so weird.
And like, there was a time inmy, I guess, early forties where
I like put out an announcement,like nobody called me weird.
Like if you call me weird, we'renot friends.
SPEAKER_01 (07:57):
That's really funny.
Well, can you take us back tothe moment in your legal or
mediation career when the rightdecision on paper didn't feel
right in your body and how younavigated that?
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
Okay.
So it's kind of embarrassing tosay, but the right decision on
paper never felt right in mybody.
Like it never felt right.
I was a design major in college.
That was like, right.
I was really good at it.
I was really, I mean, as a otherthings and, you know, all the
things that had, it's kind ofmediation.
(08:32):
You know, we used to do a lot ofprojects about getting
architects, engineers, andcommunity to build together How
to do that.
(09:08):
And you couldn't really travelif you had a nursery school.
Anyways, you know, your 20s,you're not really thinking
things through so muchnecessarily.
And so I worked for a judge andI did love that.
You know, I had a taste ofsettling cases and I loved
settling these like highconflict, crazy cases, which of
course takes a degree ofcreativity.
(09:28):
But then I moved away and I gotmarried and I didn't work for
the judge anymore.
And I opened my own practice andI went to court for years.
I don't know, like 15 moreyears.
And I just couldn't stand thefighting.
It was so stupid.
It was such a waste of people'smoney and time.
And there's no pot of gold atthe end of that rainbow.
(09:49):
There's just not.
I mean, of course, if you're ina particular situation, you may
need court.
But for most people, you don'tneed to spend$50,000 or$100,000.
You can spend...
between five and 20 and get agreat outcome and still a lot of
money, but it's like calm.
And so the thing that lit thechange was, I'm going to bring
back Gwyneth, but when she gotdivorced from Chris Martin, I
(10:12):
think it was 2014, there was alot of media around the
conscious uncoupling.
And at the time I said to myhusband, I'm going to write the
book that she's going to endorseand I'm going to be a big...
conversation starter in divorce.
I'm going to start the positivedivorce movement because I felt
like my parents' divorce wasactually very positive.
(10:33):
And he was like, oh, go to bed.
He was basically like, you don'twrite.
What are you talking about?
And I was like, those arefighting words.
And so I Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
So powerful.
So powerful.
And I love that you're like,those are fighting words.
I'm going to actually prove youwrong.
I'm going to do this.
And that's a motivator too,right?
Like I'm not going to buck underthe whatever box, the box you're
putting me in.
But you know, it's interestingbecause most of our listeners
think creativity as, you know,what I do, painting or writing
(11:27):
or creating music, but you'reinnovating in how families
resolve conflict.
So how do you personally definecreativity in your work?
I don't know if I've thoughtabout that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:38):
I'd say it's like looking at the edges of an
issue.
I was at a Chanel exhibit andthere were these suits from the
sixties that had frayed edges.
And I And this went through mymind, like I could write an
essay about this suit, right?
My brain just kind of works likethat, like looking at things
from different angles,considering creating space for
(12:01):
possibility.
You know, it's not necessarilythis or that.
It could be a different thing.
Like I can remember in my later20s shopping for shoes and I was
trying to decide.
And I think I was also maybedeciding between two boyfriends.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Choices.
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
Choices.
And I was like, okay, this shoe,I'll stay with this person.
And this shoe, I'll date them.
This is so over-describing.
But anyway, neither shoe fit.
And I was like, they're out.
If only if it was that easy,right?
Yeah, I mean, in that moment...
I'm very blessed with moments ofclarity.
It can take me a long time toget there, but when I make
(12:38):
decisions thus far, and I'mpretty far along, my moments of
clarity stick.
So I feel like very lucky aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
And I feel like that's something that's been
cultivated and validated so thatyou then trust what you're
choosing, right?
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
It was interesting growing up with parents who are
artists, especially my mom,who's like really, really
talented artist.
My dad sold more because he wasvery charming.
But my mom, my mom is veryskilled.
And my brother was like a supergenius.
And I was just like gets alongwith others.
Right.
I like, you know, and.
I always wished that I would bemore creative.
(13:14):
Like, you know, I did theaterand I was fine.
I was good.
I got good parts, but I wasn'tlike amazing.
You know, I was solid.
And it really wasn't until mylater 40s where I realized that
I had...
sort of found what motivates meand, you know, I've found a
(13:35):
path, but it's still, I mean,it's new, right?
It's not that far into this newcreative path.
And I wish that I had found itsooner.
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
Well, I would argue that the path wouldn't have been
possible had you not had theother experiences to kind of
make it,
SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
So if we could go to the impetus behind your first
book, because for someone who'snever written a book before.
That's kind of a daunting task,but you're just like, I'm going
to write a
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
book.
How did that happen?
It's kind of funny too.
When I went to college, I wasliterally in the remedial
writing.
I was at an Ivy League schooland I feel like I got in because
I did a ton of extracurricularsand reasonable grades and
classes and that, but my essayswere really funny.
We'll never know.
Well, you are.
You're brilliant and you'rereally funny.
(14:23):
That's I really wanted to, itsounds so green, but like in my
mind, I wanted to offer almostlike a solve for people going
through divorce who didn't havea therapist or had a lawyer who
wasn't that compassionate, ormaybe they were trying to go it
on their own.
And I practiced a lot of yogaand I wanted to incorporate
(14:44):
yoga, meditation, and like nutsand bolts around your divorce.
And so I built a wholemethodology to think about your
divorce in terms of yourselfaround peace, patience, clarity,
and forgiveness and respect,right?
And it's like, how do yourespect yourself when these
things happen?
How do you forgive?
And it's literally all aboutleaning into self-compassion.
(15:07):
And in my mind, you know, thisbook was going to like do all
this, you know, like changelitigators.
I don't know what I wasthinking, but like what wound up
happening is, you know, loads ofmediators gave the book to their
clients and loads of people whowere getting divorced and yoga,
you know, people, people whoalready were in the choir were
(15:27):
interested in hearing more fromthe choir.
But I...
I gave the book to my mom toread.
And even though their divorcewas pretty good, I always felt
like she was still holding on toanger.
Lo, these many years later.
And she read the book.
And I remember she called me.
She said, are you trying to tellme something?
Hint, hint.
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
I don't know.
I used to sit at this long tableand I would sit in the seat on
the far end.
And then I would have likeperson after person sitting
directly across from me, comingin from the world with a smile
on their face on the outsideworld and crying.
I had boxes of tissues.
I say had because now it's allinternet, right?
So I'm handing virtual tissuesto people.
And it just like, I just feltlike I wish I could make a group
(16:11):
of all my clients, or I wish Icould shout out to the world,
you don't need to wear that maskall the time.
But of course, you do need towear a mask to survive in life.
But I wanted the book to beaccessible.
You could open any page at anytime.
You don't have to read it frombeginning to end.
It's organized veryspecifically.
The first section talks aboutthese concepts of patience,
(16:32):
peace, respect, clarity, andforgiveness.
and what they mean.
And there's yoga and meditationbrought into them.
And then the second sectionreally takes a look at what you
need to think about for custody.
What do you need to think aboutfor finances?
What are the key elements?
And there's meditations in therethroughout and some worksheets
(16:53):
and just things to consider.
I hope, I've been told it's areally healing companion.
Elena Brower contributed all theyoga exercises and the
meditations.
And she also includes somepersonal stories.
And she's a pretty well-knownyogini.
SPEAKER_01 (17:11):
I love how the approach is more holistic.
SPEAKER_00 (17:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
Because you're saying, yeah, there's this mask
that we carry when we have tosurvive.
It can only work for so longwhen the inside part isn't
really addressed.
You're still going to have tocarry that as well.
And through breath work orthrough meditation.
It's really bringing care andfocus on that part of yourself
(17:34):
that also has to heal duringthis whole process.
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
And it's also about like curating friends who are
supportive during the stage andnot getting so angry at friends
who can't be there because, youknow, people show up as they can
at different parts of your life.
Really easy to get angry.
So we sort of explore.
I sort of go into a lot of that,that whole idea of like bring
yourself into a place where youcan smile more, at least once a
(17:58):
day, even if it's just a moment,even if the rest of your day
feels like chaotic and amaelstrom.
And rebuilding yourself from theinside out, like what's not
working for you anymore?
SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
Now, you created the YES method as a transformative
tool.
What
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
is
SPEAKER_01 (18:14):
it?
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
So YES stands for Your Role in the Conflict,
What's the Emotional Story, andShelving an Argument.
But really the way it works,when you think about conflict,
there's always a fear or ananxiety or something that's
driving your emotions.
(18:35):
Not the person who didsomething, that we're blaming
somebody else for doingsomething, but there's something
inside of us.
And so the whole goal is tofigure out what's going on for
you.
And the way to do that is bytaking a pause, creating space,
which creates the pathway forenergy to start helping you
(18:56):
figure out what your emotion is,right?
Because we get locked in ourpositions.
We fight over what we want.
We resolve around why we needthe thing we want, right?
So you need to know your story.
The way to figure out yourstory, your emotional story is
by shelving, right?
(19:18):
And so I called it YES.
Because I was thinking of itmore like a circle when I wrote
The Secrets of Getting Along.
But those three elements, it'sreally all about the E, right?
Because if you can unpack whyyou want what you want, what is
your motivation, or what If youcan understand what the
motivation of the other personis, you can resolve in a way
(19:41):
where you're not beingpositional anymore.
And the thing I love so muchabout doing divorce mediation, I
always say like, bring it on.
Like other than somebody whoreally can't stick to an
agreement, I find it verysatisfying to solve the
unsolvable because everything'ssolvable.
Because we agree so much morethan we disagree.
I agree.
(20:01):
Well, we think we disagree with,right?
Like you and I, we know we areof similar minds, but there's a
whole world of people who youthink, you know, you don't
understand.
But if you were forced to probea little bit more and forced to
make an understanding, youcould.
Yeah.
(20:22):
And you wouldn't.
It would actually be verysatisfying.
Would you call that empathy?
Yeah, that is empathy.
I wouldn't use that word becausethose labels bother people or
they're like, oh, he's notempathic at all.
I just invite people to thinkabout their motivation.
Okay, so say I'm in a divorceand all he cares about is money.
Well, that's actually not thecore motivation.
(20:43):
The core motivation is probablyfinancial insecurity, a scarcity
mindset.
So So when you can look at itthat way, yes, you are being
empathic.
But if I label, let's beempathic, that person may feel
like an enemy in the moment.
And so you're not looking forempathy.
But if you're looking forsolutions, understanding why
(21:06):
they need the thing they want,we can get there.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Well, when you created the YES method, was
there a moment when it arrivedas an insight rather than
something constructedintellectually.
Like what was happening in yourown life or perhaps in your own
inner world when that conceptemerged?
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
So the concept, it's funny because during COVID, when
everybody was making sourdough,including myself, my agent
called and she said, Gabrielle,I want you to write a book like
Better Apart, but more globaland more generic for other
people.
And at the same time, Before shecalled me, I had applied to do
some TED Talks and I was justthinking about conflict and
(21:52):
resolution and how do we movefrom the what to the why, right?
And I knew like in structuring aTED Talk, you really have to be
very focused on what key coreconcepts you're trying to share.
And so I really had to thinkabout What is going on in
(22:13):
conflict?
And what's going on is almostlike a chain of escalation, more
escalation, more escalation, andthe kaboom.
How do we dial back the kaboom?
And yeah, I can't really say howit came to me, but I knew you
had to stop.
I always talk about shelving.
My grandfather talked aboutshelving.
(22:34):
Shelving means pausing.
What he used to say to me islike, never throw anyone away.
Just put them on a shelf.
The same thing goes- arguments,right?
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
And I imagine that the idea of it became clearer or
more clear as you started reallyfocusing specifically on that
method.
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
That's right.
Because when it started, it wasactually a whole different
thing.
It was a whole differentmethodology, but it wasn't
crystallized enough.
So actually after I did my TEDtalk, I restructured my whole
book because it made so muchmore sense.
So the publisher who hadpurchased The Secret to Getting
Along happened to be located inChicago and this TED was in
(23:14):
Chicago and I invited her tocome listen.
And when she heard the TED, Ithink she and I had the same
thought while I was delivering.
When I saw her, she was like,that was really great.
And we kind of looked at eachother and I was like, I think
I'm going to restructure thebook And she was like, I was
thinking the same thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
didn't necessarily support at first, but you knew
there had to be a way ofhonoring, you know, this
collaboration across
SPEAKER_00 (24:07):
disciplines.
So I am very excited about thepotential to offer co-parenting
plans to people affordably.
You know, so Virtual Gabby wasactually in April, birthed at
Stanford.
We presented at CodeX as aresearch and development
project, and we are activelybuilding right now.
(24:28):
It is designed to deescalate, toeducate, and to drive the
parties toward a parentingagreement that's very linearly
created.
And maybe that's like yourquestion is like, how do I as a
mediator deal with that?
It is very interesting.
Using AI is not as flexibletoday, right?
(24:51):
as using a human, but it'sbetter than just winging it.
And it's much less expensivethan having an attorney or
mediator work with you fromscratch.
So Virtual Gaby in its presentform, the capabilities are
designed to take a co-parents, Iwon't even say a couple, just
co-parents from a 15 to 20%agreement and they both want to
(25:14):
mediate to an 80 to 100%agreement.
And it is designed to...
Just because the tech isn'tquite there and we're not just
releasing something into thewild that impacts children.
So it is designed for it to be,before it's converted into an
agreement that's to be filed, tobe reviewed by a mediator, a
(25:35):
lawyer, or court personnel.
But it very clearly takes theparties into the room and
figures out where they agree,where they disagree, what needs
to to be completely mediated.
It narrows the issues and itgives an agreement and it is
very complicated.
It's like, it's so much morework than I think I anticipated
(25:56):
when I first got into this.
And my co-founder, Olga Mack, isa multiple CEO, co-founder, and
double Berkeley, MIT, Stanford.
She's unbelievable, and I'mcreating the product.
And it is really rich and reallyexciting.
And we're always looking, if anyof your listeners happen to be
involved with legal aids or areinterested in early tech
(26:20):
startups, anything like that,definitely reach out because
we're always looking to learnand to grow and create the best
products tech possible to helpas many people as possible.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
What a beautiful project and combining the two
skill sets that you havetogether with this team to
really create something thatthat most people would find so
challenging and overwhelming.
And you've worked with countlesspeople during one of the most
vulnerable transitions of theirlives, divorce and separation.
(26:54):
What patterns have you seenaround how people disconnect
from their own inner compassduring crisis?
And how do you help themreconnect with
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
it?
So during crisis...
Okay, so basically people dofive things.
I feel like you must have donesome research, but there are
five things we do in conflict,right?
And they usually go togetherwith each other.
We...
We bury our head in the sand,right?
Like the ostrich.
We steamroller.
So they go hand in hand.
So the steamroller is like thecontrolling person.
(27:28):
The person burying the head inthe sand is the avoided person,
right?
But the controlling person isn'treally controlling and the
avoided person isn't reallyavoided.
Well, this is how we act toquell the anxiety, right?
But I just name it.
I name it for people.
If somebody says, he's socontrolling, I say, he seems
anxious or she seems anxious.
(27:50):
Oh, yeah, they're so anxious.
Okay.
Hmm.
Well, let's start addressingthings.
You know, we sort of like dialit back.
So then there's people who stirthe pot.
They deflect, right?
I have this great PowerPointpicture with a witch around the
pot, like, right, stirring it,making it worse.
And those people tend to couplewith any of the other people.
(28:11):
of the five sort of topologiesof arguments.
And by the way, we all do allthese things.
Don't judge yourself if you dothem because you do them.
There are no exceptions.
Everybody does these things.
And depending who you'recommunicating with, you do
different things.
So the last two are minimizingand catastrophizing, right?
So they go hand in hand, right?
So often a minimizer is coupledwith a catastrophizer and they
(28:33):
only make it worse because theyinvalidate each other.
So as a mediator and also as avirtual mediator, there's a lot
of validating that has to go onbecause You can't hear when
you're still talking and youcan't stop talking until you've
been heard.
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
So valuable right there, that statement, because I
think a lot of it is feelingseen.
Exactly.
And being heard.
SPEAKER_00 (28:55):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (28:56):
Is that a fair thing to say about why conflicts arise
if you think about it?
SPEAKER_00 (29:02):
I would say fear and insecurity is really at the root
of all conflict.
Sadness, but it's fear andinsecurity.
So you might have a fundamentalloss when you're really young
that's never been healed at adeep level.
Go to Donabelle if you want somedeep level healing.
I'm just a lawyer.
I'm just talking.
I mean, I don't have acertification in therapy or
anything like that.
I've been doing this for mywhole life.
(29:23):
I worked for a judge andresolved like nearly 800 cases
when I was 30 years old.
So 30, 31.
So you've seen a lot of cases.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've definitely seen thousandsof cases.
I won't say tens of thousands,but thousands.
One theme is like people...
can feel like their whole lifehas been a lie.
And when I was really young andI was first doing this, I would
(29:44):
say it sometimes.
So the way it works in New YorkCity is before trial, You and
your lawyers would go into thisback room beside the judge's
chambers and meet with me orwhoever has that job.
And so it's two lawyers, twolitigants.
Everybody's much older than I amat the time.
Right.
And you didn't really get toomuch training, but I had a good
(30:06):
mind for this.
But I don't know if it'sindelicate, but I would say
things like, you know, you'dhear somebody hear somebody's
story.
And these people were just aboutto go to trial.
They're about to spend liketheir life savings for two weeks
of arguing.
And then I would say somethinglike, it sounds like you feel
like your whole life isbasically a lie.
And so then the person wouldcry.
And as soon as they would cry,we'd resolve the whole case.
(30:29):
And it was like, I know youalmost get desensitized to it,
right?
At the time, I'm like, well, youknow, the judgment was like,
you're great at resolving this.
I was like, oh, I made 10 peoplecry today.
My work is done here.
Right.
But the reality of it is, Ithink I was just hearing their
pain and I was letting them, youknow, and I was probably a good
20 years younger than a lot ofthe people who I was seeing,
(30:51):
right?
But I was able to see and justhold what they were saying and
not in this therapy kind of way,but just in a person way.
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
And
SPEAKER_00 (31:01):
it kind of shut down.
Some of the older lawyers wouldjust be quiet.
You know, when you're doing asettlement conference, which is
a bit different from a mediationto settlement conference is when
there's two lawyers also.
And it's a little bit lessgentle because you need to get
it done.
Everybody's being paid a lot,but you have people's feelings.
I would be careful to saysomething like, it sounds like
(31:23):
you feel like your whole life isa lie.
And I'm not saying that it was alie.
You always have to balance theroom, which can be tricky
sometimes.
But it's kind of like a dance.
I mean, I think of conflict as adance, right?
It's like leaning in and leaningout and knowing when to do what.
And it's much easier to do ifyou're not part of the conflict.
SPEAKER_01 (31:46):
Right?
I think there is something tothat.
Also, being the youngest personin the room, that had to be a
little vulnerable for you tokind of actually go in and say
that.
But no?
I mean,
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
So when I grew up, my parents had these family
meetings with us.
I used to call them likereferendums against Gabrielle.
It would be like my dad and hisgirlfriend at the time and my
mom and her husband.
And they would sort of like beworking together to make sure I
wasn't spoiled, right?
And they would just like, youknow, tell me all the things I
was doing wrong or whatever.
It was very calm.
But I kind of learned to keep mymouth quiet in those meetings
(32:19):
because I wanted them to getdone as quickly as possible.
But I think When I first wasclerking for the judge, I think
it was amazing because I had myvoice.
I had all those years of sittingquietly.
And now I was just able to say,this is what I think is
happening, right?
And I...
Loved my job.
I mean, when people call metoday and they say, have you
(32:40):
ever worked with blah, blah,blah?
I'm like, no case too big or toosmall.
Like I'm so bad at so manythings, but I am so good at
this.
It's a real niche skill,Donabelle.
SPEAKER_01 (32:50):
I can only imagine.
And I know you do it well.
That's the reason why I createdthis podcast is speaking to
people who found their purpose,found their zone and help others
in that capacity.
SPEAKER_00 (33:04):
Yeah.
I love this.
This
SPEAKER_01 (33:08):
title is amazing.
Gabrielle, what advice would yougive to someone who is sort of
stuck between doing what'sexpected maybe by the legal
system or family and sort ofwhat their intuition is quietly
urging them towards, especiallyin regards to conflict
resolution.
SPEAKER_00 (33:28):
Okay.
So you just asked a layeredquestion that I have to answer
in two parts.
When it comes to the legalsystem, I don't care how you
feel, you cannot break the law.
So like you have to do thingsthe right way.
That's
SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
straight.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (33:42):
Like, let's just be clear.
Like if the judge says dosomething, you can't not do it.
No good to you.
Just do what the judge says.
Okay.
When it comes to your personalrelationships, I mean, I do
think there's a balance betweenlistening to yourself because at
the end of the day, this is yourlife and weighing the wants,
(34:02):
needs, desires of the people whoare near and dear to you and
making sure things are always inbalance, right?
So like by nature, this might bea surprise to you, Donable, but
I'm rather conflict avoidant,right?
That is surprising.
I really...
have a tendency to remain silentand to minimize because I do not
(34:23):
like conflict and I'm very happyin my own mind and my own space.
And I'm very good at, I havevery good boundaries, which is I
think what lets me minimize, butthat has gotten me in trouble
sometimes.
So like I am learning to speakup more, right?
Like I'm very good at owningmyself and I'm very good at
saying no, but I think that it'sjust all a balance and we all
(34:44):
have to find our own balancesometimes.
If you're in a career or a jobor something that just feels
like it's not the right fit foryou, I would encourage you to
listen to that sooner ratherthan later.
Because while what you said isabsolutely correct that I could
not do what I do today had I notspent time litigating, but I
(35:05):
could have spent 10 years andnot 18 and I would have been
just fine.
Do you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I mean, look, I wasraising children, right?
Like there's only so much onecan do with one's time.
And the best thing to do reallyis one baby step in front of
another and have trust in thepath.
(35:26):
And I am like crazy about thevision boards, whether it's
words or a journal or, you know,as you can see, if anybody's
watching this instead oflistening, you can see Donna
Bell's beautiful artwork.
You can, you know, make art orvision boards that are more
visual.
I happen to connect more withwords than pictures, but yeah,
I, I just say, listen to thatvoice in your head because you
(35:48):
can do really cool things.
You just have to have theconfidence to know that you can.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (35:54):
And the power of yes, as well as the power of no.
Right.
Well, I, I have one morequestion.
That really speaks about all ofthis, especially with virtual
Gabby.
How has motherhood shaped yourrelationship to intuition and
ways that you've carried intoyour work with co-parents and
families?
SPEAKER_00 (36:15):
So I am much wiser and more forgiving than I was
when I was younger.
And for me, I think having afamily of my own has definitely
made me...
made me that way.
I have more compassion for otherparents.
I have more understanding.
I have three kids.
They all come with their ownfeatures as do everybody else's
(36:37):
kids.
So yeah, I mean, there is thebeauty of time that will help
you be wiser.
But I would say if you're youngand listening to this, like
there's no time like today.
But to start being moreempathetic and more
compassionate to yourself too.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
You're stronger than you think.
(36:58):
You're better than you think.
You can do so many cool, coolthings more than you think you
can.
And Donna Bell is right.
Power of yes and the power ofno.
Oh my gosh.
So many things
SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
to do.
Good one.
Anyway, Gabrielle Hartley, I soappreciate what you're doing to
help keep mediation andco-parenting plans accessible.
Your work reminds us that evenin the moments of conflict,
there's room for clarity,compassion, and creativity.
If you felt inspired by thisepisode, I invite you to share
(37:32):
it with someone who might need alittle encouragement or a new
way of looking at conflict.
And as always, I'm so thankfulfor you being here today,
Gabrielle, and being part ofthis community and speaking
about your story and sharingyour vision because it's such a
powerful way to show how we'reall connected and the ways in
(37:56):
which we can all help eachother.
I
SPEAKER_00 (37:57):
just want to say one thing that I forgot to say
before.
Always remember that a step backis very often the best way
forward.
SPEAKER_01 (38:06):
Wise, wise words.
Thank you so much, GabrielleHartley, for being on the show.
Thanks for having me, DonnaBell.
It's a pleasure.
You can also find more episodesand updates at
(38:31):
sonorouslight.com.
or on your favorite podcastplatform.
Until next time, keep humming.
Hello, friends.
It's me, Donna Bell, your hostof another episode of To Hum is
Human, the podcast where weexplore the transformative power
of tuning into our intuition toexpress our passionate purpose.
(00:20):
I'm so happy you're taking thetime to listen today.
This episode is all about theinner hum and your creativity.
And I have a truly inspiringguest who embodies the
intersection of innovation,intuition, and impact.
Whether you're navigatingthrough tough transitions or
simply trying to tune in moredeeply to your own inner wisdom,
(00:44):
today's episode is a beautifulreminder that our intuition,
when honored, can guide ustoward solutions that serve not
just ourselves but the people welove.
It's such an honor for me tointroduce my next guest.
Gabrielle Hartley Esquire is atrailblazer in family law and
(01:04):
dispute resolution.
She's the co-founder and chiefproduct officer of Better
Parenting Plan, where she'sbuilding Virtual Gabby, an AI
online mediator that helpsparents create fair and
affordable parenting plans.
With a bold vision for access tojustice, Gabrielle is using
(01:24):
technology to break down andbring compassion-driven conflict
resolution to familieseverywhere.
She's also the best-sellingauthor of Better Apart, also The
Secret to Getting Along, and thecreator of the YES Method,
Y-E-S, a powerful framework thatturns conflict into cooperation
(01:47):
and has been featured in herTEDx talk and national media.
Gabrielle's work is deeplyrooted in creativity, purpose,
and a belief and accessiblesolutions, making her the
perfect guest to explore today'sthemes.
Welcome Gabrielle.
Oh
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
my gosh, Donabelle, that was quite an introduction.
I've been on a lot of podcastsand that was really, I have a
lot to live up to.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
It's all you.
It's all you.
Well, you know, we know eachother personally and I've always
admired the way you trust yourinstincts and act on them.
And I wonder if your experienceand love of theater growing up
impacted how you live in thisflow.
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
Yeah, I mean, it may or it may be the other way
around.
It may be that the theater was agreat place for me to express
inner emotions that maybeweren't safe maybe to express in
other a home environment or inother places.
So yeah, I had a lot of refugeon the stage.
(02:52):
I was always a double thread.
I could kind of act and kind ofsing, but dancing, everybody's
going right and I'm going left.
So I stuck to the books.
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Well, growing up and with all kinds of issues that we
do grow up with in parenting andalso being a child of parents,
obviously, what's one beliefthat about parenting or conflict
or even justice that you onceheld, but had to release in
(03:21):
order to hear your inner truthmore clearly?
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
That's a really interesting question, Donabelle.
I have to think about that for aminute.
I think either by design or as Iam intuitively have a natural, I
don't know if it's a benefit ora burden, but I see other
people's points of view veryeasily, which is why mediation
was appropriate for me ratherthan litigation.
(03:47):
But I have really had to learnto listen to my instincts also
and learn to say no.
And I've become really good atsaying no.
And it's like, if you take onething away from me, like learn
the power of no and learn thepower of let me think about
that.
I'll get back to you later.
Because if you don't sayanything, people hear a yes, and
(04:10):
then you wind up in all kinds oftrouble.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
I think the power of no is actually an underused
power.
If you ever want to
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
practice with me.
SPEAKER_01 (04:18):
No.
So you've spent years in thelegal system, a space that's
deeply rooted in logic,structure, and precedent.
How did you begin to recognizeand trust the quieter, intuitive
voice that told you a morecompassionate path was possible?
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
So when I was practicing law, it was more...
Although I love to be anadvocate and I'm a very natural
advocate, I was really workinghard to suppress my creative
side.
I had studied designenvironmental analysis at
Cornell as an undergrad and Iwas raised by two artists.
And so for me, it was just moreleaning into who I already knew
(05:00):
I was, you know, and it's aharder path, the creative path,
because it's not always so clearhow you're going to find your
way forward.
career-wise, right?
I have been lucky.
I've been very fortunate to havea strong skill in divorce
mediation, which is one thing,but I do a lot of other things.
(05:22):
I'm creating this legal tech andit's not even legal tech.
It's actually more likemediation, human tech.
And I've written books and Ijust think it's a lot about
bravery.
I really...
didn't step away from litigationuntil I had Gwyneth Paltrow's
endorsement on Better Apart.
And that gave me, I know thatsounds totally silly, but that
(05:43):
was like a stamp of approvalthat really fed my confidence to
say, okay, like Gwynny says it'sgood.
And once, you know, when BetterApart hit the shelves and was
featured pretty widely, thatreally is what gave me the
confidence to step out of thebox that I had put myself in.
(06:04):
When I was younger, I had agoal, which was to be
mainstream.
I used to say that, you know, Iwanted to be like regular.
And, um, once my, my eldest sontold me I was so, I think he
called me like generic orsomething like that.
Like as an insult.
And I was like, like, I wasn't,it wasn't basic.
It was something even worse thanthis.
(06:25):
But, um, Yeah, I really, youknow, my parents had joint
custody when nobody had that.
We were like kind of weirdfamily.
You know, my parents were twodifferent religions.
I went to two different housesof worship.
The adults were always like,isn't this confusing for you?
And I was like, not so much forme, but maybe for you.
(06:45):
You know, like even as a kid, Ithought like, not really, this
is not confusing.
But yeah.
I just, I really cravedbelongingness and normalcy.
And so I think I built afortress almost around myself to
create like a safety net so thatI could feel more supported in
the world.
(07:05):
But as I got older and moreconfident and more comfortable,
In my own skin, as we all do,you know, like our skin maybe
isn't as good anymore, but ourconfidence is better.
So I guess I'll take it.
But yeah, I feel like it took mea long time to really lean into
myself.
SPEAKER_01 (07:23):
It's interesting that you had wanted to be so
normal as your goal.
when I'm just thinking you areso far from normal and that's
why I love you.
Like, that's really why I loveyou.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
Well, I just wanted to be normal.
Like, I just was like, you know,like I had friends who I'm
still, I have a really richgroup of friends from college
and law school.
And like, many of them will saylike, oh, you're so weird.
And like, there was a time inmy, I guess, early forties where
I like put out an announcement,like nobody called me weird.
Like if you call me weird, we'renot friends.
SPEAKER_01 (07:57):
That's really funny.
Well, can you take us back tothe moment in your legal or
mediation career when the rightdecision on paper didn't feel
right in your body and how younavigated that?
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
Okay.
So it's kind of embarrassing tosay, but the right decision on
paper never felt right in mybody.
Like it never felt right.
I was a design major in college.
That was like, right.
I was really good at it.
I was really, I mean, as a otherthings and, you know, all the
things that had, it's kind ofmediation.
(08:32):
You know, we used to do a lot ofprojects about getting
architects, engineers, andcommunity to build together How
to do that.
(09:08):
And you couldn't really travelif you had a nursery school.
Anyways, you know, your 20s,you're not really thinking
things through so muchnecessarily.
And so I worked for a judge andI did love that.
You know, I had a taste ofsettling cases and I loved
settling these like highconflict, crazy cases, which of
course takes a degree ofcreativity.
(09:28):
But then I moved away and I gotmarried and I didn't work for
the judge anymore.
And I opened my own practice andI went to court for years.
I don't know, like 15 moreyears.
And I just couldn't stand thefighting.
It was so stupid.
It was such a waste of people'smoney and time.
And there's no pot of gold atthe end of that rainbow.
(09:49):
There's just not.
I mean, of course, if you're ina particular situation, you may
need court.
But for most people, you don'tneed to spend$50,000 or$100,000.
You can spend...
between five and 20 and get agreat outcome and still a lot of
money, but it's like calm.
And so the thing that lit thechange was, I'm going to bring
back Gwyneth, but when she gotdivorced from Chris Martin, I
(10:12):
think it was 2014, there was alot of media around the
conscious uncoupling.
And at the time I said to myhusband, I'm going to write the
book that she's going to endorseand I'm going to be a big...
conversation starter in divorce.
I'm going to start the positivedivorce movement because I felt
like my parents' divorce wasactually very positive.
(10:33):
And he was like, oh, go to bed.
He was basically like, you don'twrite.
What are you talking about?
And I was like, those arefighting words.
And so I Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
So powerful.
So powerful.
And I love that you're like,those are fighting words.
I'm going to actually prove youwrong.
I'm going to do this.
And that's a motivator too,right?
Like I'm not going to buck underthe whatever box, the box you're
putting me in.
But you know, it's interestingbecause most of our listeners
think creativity as, you know,what I do, painting or writing
(11:27):
or creating music, but you'reinnovating in how families
resolve conflict.
So how do you personally definecreativity in your work?
I don't know if I've thoughtabout that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:38):
I'd say it's like looking at the edges of an
issue.
I was at a Chanel exhibit andthere were these suits from the
sixties that had frayed edges.
And I And this went through mymind, like I could write an
essay about this suit, right?
My brain just kind of works likethat, like looking at things
from different angles,considering creating space for
(12:01):
possibility.
You know, it's not necessarilythis or that.
It could be a different thing.
Like I can remember in my later20s shopping for shoes and I was
trying to decide.
And I think I was also maybedeciding between two boyfriends.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Choices.
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
Choices.
And I was like, okay, this shoe,I'll stay with this person.
And this shoe, I'll date them.
This is so over-describing.
But anyway, neither shoe fit.
And I was like, they're out.
If only if it was that easy,right?
Yeah, I mean, in that moment...
I'm very blessed with moments ofclarity.
It can take me a long time toget there, but when I make
(12:38):
decisions thus far, and I'mpretty far along, my moments of
clarity stick.
So I feel like very lucky aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
And I feel like that's something that's been
cultivated and validated so thatyou then trust what you're
choosing, right?
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
It was interesting growing up with parents who are
artists, especially my mom,who's like really, really
talented artist.
My dad sold more because he wasvery charming.
But my mom, my mom is veryskilled.
And my brother was like a supergenius.
And I was just like gets alongwith others.
Right.
I like, you know, and.
I always wished that I would bemore creative.
(13:14):
Like, you know, I did theaterand I was fine.
I was good.
I got good parts, but I wasn'tlike amazing.
You know, I was solid.
And it really wasn't until mylater 40s where I realized that
I had...
sort of found what motivates meand, you know, I've found a
(13:35):
path, but it's still, I mean,it's new, right?
It's not that far into this newcreative path.
And I wish that I had found itsooner.
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
Well, I would argue that the path wouldn't have been
possible had you not had theother experiences to kind of
make it,
SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
So if we could go to the impetus behind your first
book, because for someone who'snever written a book before.
That's kind of a daunting task,but you're just like, I'm going
to write a
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
book.
How did that happen?
It's kind of funny too.
When I went to college, I wasliterally in the remedial
writing.
I was at an Ivy League schooland I feel like I got in because
I did a ton of extracurricularsand reasonable grades and
classes and that, but my essayswere really funny.
We'll never know.
Well, you are.
You're brilliant and you'rereally funny.
(14:23):
That's I really wanted to, itsounds so green, but like in my
mind, I wanted to offer almostlike a solve for people going
through divorce who didn't havea therapist or had a lawyer who
wasn't that compassionate, ormaybe they were trying to go it
on their own.
And I practiced a lot of yogaand I wanted to incorporate
(14:44):
yoga, meditation, and like nutsand bolts around your divorce.
And so I built a wholemethodology to think about your
divorce in terms of yourselfaround peace, patience, clarity,
and forgiveness and respect,right?
And it's like, how do yourespect yourself when these
things happen?
How do you forgive?
And it's literally all aboutleaning into self-compassion.
(15:07):
And in my mind, you know, thisbook was going to like do all
this, you know, like changelitigators.
I don't know what I wasthinking, but like what wound up
happening is, you know, loads ofmediators gave the book to their
clients and loads of people whowere getting divorced and yoga,
you know, people, people whoalready were in the choir were
(15:27):
interested in hearing more fromthe choir.
But I...
I gave the book to my mom toread.
And even though their divorcewas pretty good, I always felt
like she was still holding on toanger.
Lo, these many years later.
And she read the book.
And I remember she called me.
She said, are you trying to tellme something?
Hint, hint.
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
I don't know.
I used to sit at this long tableand I would sit in the seat on
the far end.
And then I would have likeperson after person sitting
directly across from me, comingin from the world with a smile
on their face on the outsideworld and crying.
I had boxes of tissues.
I say had because now it's allinternet, right?
So I'm handing virtual tissuesto people.
And it just like, I just feltlike I wish I could make a group
(16:11):
of all my clients, or I wish Icould shout out to the world,
you don't need to wear that maskall the time.
But of course, you do need towear a mask to survive in life.
But I wanted the book to beaccessible.
You could open any page at anytime.
You don't have to read it frombeginning to end.
It's organized veryspecifically.
The first section talks aboutthese concepts of patience,
(16:32):
peace, respect, clarity, andforgiveness.
and what they mean.
And there's yoga and meditationbrought into them.
And then the second sectionreally takes a look at what you
need to think about for custody.
What do you need to think aboutfor finances?
What are the key elements?
And there's meditations in therethroughout and some worksheets
(16:53):
and just things to consider.
I hope, I've been told it's areally healing companion.
Elena Brower contributed all theyoga exercises and the
meditations.
And she also includes somepersonal stories.
And she's a pretty well-knownyogini.
SPEAKER_01 (17:11):
I love how the approach is more holistic.
SPEAKER_00 (17:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
Because you're saying, yeah, there's this mask
that we carry when we have tosurvive.
It can only work for so longwhen the inside part isn't
really addressed.
You're still going to have tocarry that as well.
And through breath work orthrough meditation.
It's really bringing care andfocus on that part of yourself
(17:34):
that also has to heal duringthis whole process.
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
And it's also about like curating friends who are
supportive during the stage andnot getting so angry at friends
who can't be there because, youknow, people show up as they can
at different parts of your life.
Really easy to get angry.
So we sort of explore.
I sort of go into a lot of that,that whole idea of like bring
yourself into a place where youcan smile more, at least once a
(17:58):
day, even if it's just a moment,even if the rest of your day
feels like chaotic and amaelstrom.
And rebuilding yourself from theinside out, like what's not
working for you anymore?
SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
Now, you created the YES method as a transformative
tool.
What
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
is
SPEAKER_01 (18:14):
it?
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
So YES stands for Your Role in the Conflict,
What's the Emotional Story, andShelving an Argument.
But really the way it works,when you think about conflict,
there's always a fear or ananxiety or something that's
driving your emotions.
(18:35):
Not the person who didsomething, that we're blaming
somebody else for doingsomething, but there's something
inside of us.
And so the whole goal is tofigure out what's going on for
you.
And the way to do that is bytaking a pause, creating space,
which creates the pathway forenergy to start helping you
(18:56):
figure out what your emotion is,right?
Because we get locked in ourpositions.
We fight over what we want.
We resolve around why we needthe thing we want, right?
So you need to know your story.
The way to figure out yourstory, your emotional story is
by shelving, right?
(19:18):
And so I called it YES.
Because I was thinking of itmore like a circle when I wrote
The Secrets of Getting Along.
But those three elements, it'sreally all about the E, right?
Because if you can unpack whyyou want what you want, what is
your motivation, or what If youcan understand what the
motivation of the other personis, you can resolve in a way
(19:41):
where you're not beingpositional anymore.
And the thing I love so muchabout doing divorce mediation, I
always say like, bring it on.
Like other than somebody whoreally can't stick to an
agreement, I find it verysatisfying to solve the
unsolvable because everything'ssolvable.
Because we agree so much morethan we disagree.
I agree.
(20:01):
Well, we think we disagree with,right?
Like you and I, we know we areof similar minds, but there's a
whole world of people who youthink, you know, you don't
understand.
But if you were forced to probea little bit more and forced to
make an understanding, youcould.
Yeah.
(20:22):
And you wouldn't.
It would actually be verysatisfying.
Would you call that empathy?
Yeah, that is empathy.
I wouldn't use that word becausethose labels bother people or
they're like, oh, he's notempathic at all.
I just invite people to thinkabout their motivation.
Okay, so say I'm in a divorceand all he cares about is money.
Well, that's actually not thecore motivation.
(20:43):
The core motivation is probablyfinancial insecurity, a scarcity
mindset.
So So when you can look at itthat way, yes, you are being
empathic.
But if I label, let's beempathic, that person may feel
like an enemy in the moment.
And so you're not looking forempathy.
But if you're looking forsolutions, understanding why
(21:06):
they need the thing they want,we can get there.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Well, when you created the YES method, was
there a moment when it arrivedas an insight rather than
something constructedintellectually.
Like what was happening in yourown life or perhaps in your own
inner world when that conceptemerged?
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
So the concept, it's funny because during COVID, when
everybody was making sourdough,including myself, my agent
called and she said, Gabrielle,I want you to write a book like
Better Apart, but more globaland more generic for other
people.
And at the same time, Before shecalled me, I had applied to do
some TED Talks and I was justthinking about conflict and
(21:52):
resolution and how do we movefrom the what to the why, right?
And I knew like in structuring aTED Talk, you really have to be
very focused on what key coreconcepts you're trying to share.
And so I really had to thinkabout What is going on in
(22:13):
conflict?
And what's going on is almostlike a chain of escalation, more
escalation, more escalation, andthe kaboom.
How do we dial back the kaboom?
And yeah, I can't really say howit came to me, but I knew you
had to stop.
I always talk about shelving.
My grandfather talked aboutshelving.
(22:34):
Shelving means pausing.
What he used to say to me islike, never throw anyone away.
Just put them on a shelf.
The same thing goes- arguments,right?
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
And I imagine that the idea of it became clearer or
more clear as you started reallyfocusing specifically on that
method.
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
That's right.
Because when it started, it wasactually a whole different
thing.
It was a whole differentmethodology, but it wasn't
crystallized enough.
So actually after I did my TEDtalk, I restructured my whole
book because it made so muchmore sense.
So the publisher who hadpurchased The Secret to Getting
Along happened to be located inChicago and this TED was in
(23:14):
Chicago and I invited her tocome listen.
And when she heard the TED, Ithink she and I had the same
thought while I was delivering.
When I saw her, she was like,that was really great.
And we kind of looked at eachother and I was like, I think
I'm going to restructure thebook And she was like, I was
thinking the same thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
didn't necessarily support at first, but you knew
there had to be a way ofhonoring, you know, this
collaboration across
SPEAKER_00 (24:07):
disciplines.
So I am very excited about thepotential to offer co-parenting
plans to people affordably.
You know, so Virtual Gabby wasactually in April, birthed at
Stanford.
We presented at CodeX as aresearch and development
project, and we are activelybuilding right now.
(24:28):
It is designed to deescalate, toeducate, and to drive the
parties toward a parentingagreement that's very linearly
created.
And maybe that's like yourquestion is like, how do I as a
mediator deal with that?
It is very interesting.
Using AI is not as flexibletoday, right?
(24:51):
as using a human, but it'sbetter than just winging it.
And it's much less expensivethan having an attorney or
mediator work with you fromscratch.
So Virtual Gaby in its presentform, the capabilities are
designed to take a co-parents, Iwon't even say a couple, just
co-parents from a 15 to 20%agreement and they both want to
(25:14):
mediate to an 80 to 100%agreement.
And it is designed to...
Just because the tech isn'tquite there and we're not just
releasing something into thewild that impacts children.
So it is designed for it to be,before it's converted into an
agreement that's to be filed, tobe reviewed by a mediator, a
(25:35):
lawyer, or court personnel.
But it very clearly takes theparties into the room and
figures out where they agree,where they disagree, what needs
to to be completely mediated.
It narrows the issues and itgives an agreement and it is
very complicated.
It's like, it's so much morework than I think I anticipated
(25:56):
when I first got into this.
And my co-founder, Olga Mack, isa multiple CEO, co-founder, and
double Berkeley, MIT, Stanford.
She's unbelievable, and I'mcreating the product.
And it is really rich and reallyexciting.
And we're always looking, if anyof your listeners happen to be
involved with legal aids or areinterested in early tech
(26:20):
startups, anything like that,definitely reach out because
we're always looking to learnand to grow and create the best
products tech possible to helpas many people as possible.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
What a beautiful project and combining the two
skill sets that you havetogether with this team to
really create something thatthat most people would find so
challenging and overwhelming.
And you've worked with countlesspeople during one of the most
vulnerable transitions of theirlives, divorce and separation.
(26:54):
What patterns have you seenaround how people disconnect
from their own inner compassduring crisis?
And how do you help themreconnect with
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
it?
So during crisis...
Okay, so basically people dofive things.
I feel like you must have donesome research, but there are
five things we do in conflict,right?
And they usually go togetherwith each other.
We...
We bury our head in the sand,right?
Like the ostrich.
We steamroller.
So they go hand in hand.
So the steamroller is like thecontrolling person.
(27:28):
The person burying the head inthe sand is the avoided person,
right?
But the controlling person isn'treally controlling and the
avoided person isn't reallyavoided.
Well, this is how we act toquell the anxiety, right?
But I just name it.
I name it for people.
If somebody says, he's socontrolling, I say, he seems
anxious or she seems anxious.
(27:50):
Oh, yeah, they're so anxious.
Okay.
Hmm.
Well, let's start addressingthings.
You know, we sort of like dialit back.
So then there's people who stirthe pot.
They deflect, right?
I have this great PowerPointpicture with a witch around the
pot, like, right, stirring it,making it worse.
And those people tend to couplewith any of the other people.
(28:11):
of the five sort of topologiesof arguments.
And by the way, we all do allthese things.
Don't judge yourself if you dothem because you do them.
There are no exceptions.
Everybody does these things.
And depending who you'recommunicating with, you do
different things.
So the last two are minimizingand catastrophizing, right?
So they go hand in hand, right?
So often a minimizer is coupledwith a catastrophizer and they
(28:33):
only make it worse because theyinvalidate each other.
So as a mediator and also as avirtual mediator, there's a lot
of validating that has to go onbecause You can't hear when
you're still talking and youcan't stop talking until you've
been heard.
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
So valuable right there, that statement, because I
think a lot of it is feelingseen.
Exactly.
And being heard.
SPEAKER_00 (28:55):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (28:56):
Is that a fair thing to say about why conflicts arise
if you think about it?
SPEAKER_00 (29:02):
I would say fear and insecurity is really at the root
of all conflict.
Sadness, but it's fear andinsecurity.
So you might have a fundamentalloss when you're really young
that's never been healed at adeep level.
Go to Donabelle if you want somedeep level healing.
I'm just a lawyer.
I'm just talking.
I mean, I don't have acertification in therapy or
anything like that.
I've been doing this for mywhole life.
(29:23):
I worked for a judge andresolved like nearly 800 cases
when I was 30 years old.
So 30, 31.
So you've seen a lot of cases.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've definitely seen thousandsof cases.
I won't say tens of thousands,but thousands.
One theme is like people...
can feel like their whole lifehas been a lie.
And when I was really young andI was first doing this, I would
(29:44):
say it sometimes.
So the way it works in New YorkCity is before trial, You and
your lawyers would go into thisback room beside the judge's
chambers and meet with me orwhoever has that job.
And so it's two lawyers, twolitigants.
Everybody's much older than I amat the time.
Right.
And you didn't really get toomuch training, but I had a good
(30:06):
mind for this.
But I don't know if it'sindelicate, but I would say
things like, you know, you'dhear somebody hear somebody's
story.
And these people were just aboutto go to trial.
They're about to spend liketheir life savings for two weeks
of arguing.
And then I would say somethinglike, it sounds like you feel
like your whole life isbasically a lie.
And so then the person wouldcry.
And as soon as they would cry,we'd resolve the whole case.
(30:29):
And it was like, I know youalmost get desensitized to it,
right?
At the time, I'm like, well, youknow, the judgment was like,
you're great at resolving this.
I was like, oh, I made 10 peoplecry today.
My work is done here.
Right.
But the reality of it is, Ithink I was just hearing their
pain and I was letting them, youknow, and I was probably a good
20 years younger than a lot ofthe people who I was seeing,
(30:51):
right?
But I was able to see and justhold what they were saying and
not in this therapy kind of way,but just in a person way.
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
And
SPEAKER_00 (31:01):
it kind of shut down.
Some of the older lawyers wouldjust be quiet.
You know, when you're doing asettlement conference, which is
a bit different from a mediationto settlement conference is when
there's two lawyers also.
And it's a little bit lessgentle because you need to get
it done.
Everybody's being paid a lot,but you have people's feelings.
I would be careful to saysomething like, it sounds like
(31:23):
you feel like your whole life isa lie.
And I'm not saying that it was alie.
You always have to balance theroom, which can be tricky
sometimes.
But it's kind of like a dance.
I mean, I think of conflict as adance, right?
It's like leaning in and leaningout and knowing when to do what.
And it's much easier to do ifyou're not part of the conflict.
SPEAKER_01 (31:46):
Right?
I think there is something tothat.
Also, being the youngest personin the room, that had to be a
little vulnerable for you tokind of actually go in and say
that.
But no?
I mean,
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
So when I grew up, my parents had these family
meetings with us.
I used to call them likereferendums against Gabrielle.
It would be like my dad and hisgirlfriend at the time and my
mom and her husband.
And they would sort of like beworking together to make sure I
wasn't spoiled, right?
And they would just like, youknow, tell me all the things I
was doing wrong or whatever.
It was very calm.
But I kind of learned to keep mymouth quiet in those meetings
(32:19):
because I wanted them to getdone as quickly as possible.
But I think When I first wasclerking for the judge, I think
it was amazing because I had myvoice.
I had all those years of sittingquietly.
And now I was just able to say,this is what I think is
happening, right?
And I...
Loved my job.
I mean, when people call metoday and they say, have you
(32:40):
ever worked with blah, blah,blah?
I'm like, no case too big or toosmall.
Like I'm so bad at so manythings, but I am so good at
this.
It's a real niche skill,Donabelle.
SPEAKER_01 (32:50):
I can only imagine.
And I know you do it well.
That's the reason why I createdthis podcast is speaking to
people who found their purpose,found their zone and help others
in that capacity.
SPEAKER_00 (33:04):
Yeah.
I love this.
This
SPEAKER_01 (33:08):
title is amazing.
Gabrielle, what advice would yougive to someone who is sort of
stuck between doing what'sexpected maybe by the legal
system or family and sort ofwhat their intuition is quietly
urging them towards, especiallyin regards to conflict
resolution.
SPEAKER_00 (33:28):
Okay.
So you just asked a layeredquestion that I have to answer
in two parts.
When it comes to the legalsystem, I don't care how you
feel, you cannot break the law.
So like you have to do thingsthe right way.
That's
SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
straight.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (33:42):
Like, let's just be clear.
Like if the judge says dosomething, you can't not do it.
No good to you.
Just do what the judge says.
Okay.
When it comes to your personalrelationships, I mean, I do
think there's a balance betweenlistening to yourself because at
the end of the day, this is yourlife and weighing the wants,
(34:02):
needs, desires of the people whoare near and dear to you and
making sure things are always inbalance, right?
So like by nature, this might bea surprise to you, Donable, but
I'm rather conflict avoidant,right?
That is surprising.
I really...
have a tendency to remain silentand to minimize because I do not
(34:23):
like conflict and I'm very happyin my own mind and my own space.
And I'm very good at, I havevery good boundaries, which is I
think what lets me minimize, butthat has gotten me in trouble
sometimes.
So like I am learning to speakup more, right?
Like I'm very good at owningmyself and I'm very good at
saying no, but I think that it'sjust all a balance and we all
(34:44):
have to find our own balancesometimes.
If you're in a career or a jobor something that just feels
like it's not the right fit foryou, I would encourage you to
listen to that sooner ratherthan later.
Because while what you said isabsolutely correct that I could
not do what I do today had I notspent time litigating, but I
(35:05):
could have spent 10 years andnot 18 and I would have been
just fine.
Do you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I mean, look, I wasraising children, right?
Like there's only so much onecan do with one's time.
And the best thing to do reallyis one baby step in front of
another and have trust in thepath.
(35:26):
And I am like crazy about thevision boards, whether it's
words or a journal or, you know,as you can see, if anybody's
watching this instead oflistening, you can see Donna
Bell's beautiful artwork.
You can, you know, make art orvision boards that are more
visual.
I happen to connect more withwords than pictures, but yeah,
I, I just say, listen to thatvoice in your head because you
(35:48):
can do really cool things.
You just have to have theconfidence to know that you can.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (35:54):
And the power of yes, as well as the power of no.
Right.
Well, I, I have one morequestion.
That really speaks about all ofthis, especially with virtual
Gabby.
How has motherhood shaped yourrelationship to intuition and
ways that you've carried intoyour work with co-parents and
families?
SPEAKER_00 (36:15):
So I am much wiser and more forgiving than I was
when I was younger.
And for me, I think having afamily of my own has definitely
made me...
made me that way.
I have more compassion for otherparents.
I have more understanding.
I have three kids.
They all come with their ownfeatures as do everybody else's
(36:37):
kids.
So yeah, I mean, there is thebeauty of time that will help
you be wiser.
But I would say if you're youngand listening to this, like
there's no time like today.
But to start being moreempathetic and more
compassionate to yourself too.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
You're stronger than you think.
(36:58):
You're better than you think.
You can do so many cool, coolthings more than you think you
can.
And Donna Bell is right.
Power of yes and the power ofno.
Oh my gosh.
So many things
SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
to do.
Good one.
Anyway, Gabrielle Hartley, I soappreciate what you're doing to
help keep mediation andco-parenting plans accessible.
Your work reminds us that evenin the moments of conflict,
there's room for clarity,compassion, and creativity.
If you felt inspired by thisepisode, I invite you to share
(37:32):
it with someone who might need alittle encouragement or a new
way of looking at conflict.
And as always, I'm so thankfulfor you being here today,
Gabrielle, and being part ofthis community and speaking
about your story and sharingyour vision because it's such a
powerful way to show how we'reall connected and the ways in
(37:56):
which we can all help eachother.
I
SPEAKER_00 (37:57):
just want to say one thing that I forgot to say
before.
Always remember that a step backis very often the best way
forward.
SPEAKER_01 (38:06):
Wise, wise words.
Thank you so much, GabrielleHartley, for being on the show.
Thanks for having me, DonnaBell.
It's a pleasure.
You can also find more episodesand updates at
(38:31):
sonorouslight.com.
or on your favorite podcastplatform.
Until next time, keep humming.
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