January 24, 2024 • 58 mins
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ABOUT THE LOUNGE
Looking for more purpose, fulfillment, and professional and personal development?
Be a part of our LIVE podcast audience and end your week with Together Digital's Chief Empowerment Officer, Amy Vaughan as she hosts authentic conversations with women in digital who wish to see change or be the change within their industry.
Register now and reserve your seat.
THIS WEEK'S TOPIC:
Have you ever wondered what it takes to lead with authenticity and inspire change? Maria Judis, the trailblazing former CEO of Hot Studio, joins me to share her transformative journey from childhood orchestrator to design and change leader. She opens up about the lessons learned along the way, highlighting the importance of real-world experiences and the power of embracing your unique story. As we navigate her career trajectory, Maria provides invaluable insight into the role of innate leadership skills and how they often trump formal education when it comes to making a genuine impact in the professional world.
Leadership is as much about collaboration as it is about power, and in this episode, we tackle both. Maria and I dissect the complex dynamics of the workplace, particularly through the lens of gender. We confront the stark realities that women face while climbing the professional ladder, and discuss how design thinking can be a tool for crafting inclusive solutions. We also ponder the shift towards self-employment as a strategy to bypass systemic obstacles, bringing personal anecdotes and wisdom to the conversation about the importance of fostering an environment where competition is replaced with teamwork.
This episode isn't just about reaching the top—it's about the growth that comes from stumbles and setbacks. We celebrate failure as a key component of learning, with a nod to Amy Edmondson's failure spectrum and the significance of transparency in leadership recovery. Laughter and growth go hand-in-hand as we look at the lighter side of missteps, and Maria shares her experience with public acknowledgment of failure. We wrap up with a heart-to-heart on decision-making and executive coaching, offering strategies to help women—and everyone—thrive in tech and beyond. Join us for an honest and empowering discussion that redefines leadership and personal fulfillment.
LINKS
Maria's LinkedIn
Changemakers
Hotstudio
Sponsored by: COhatch
COhatch is a new kind of shared work, social, and family space built on community. Members get access to workspace, amenities like rock walls and sports simulators, and more to live a fully integrated life that balances work, family, well-being, community, and giving back. COhatch has 31 locations open or under construction nationwide throughout Ohio, Indiana, Florida, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to our weekly Power Lounge, your place to
hear authentic conversationsfrom those who have power to
share.
My name is Amy Vaughn and I amthe owner and Chief Empowerment
Officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who work indigital and choose to share
(00:28):
their knowledge, power andconnections.
Join the movement atwwwtogetherindigitalcom.
Let's get started.
This week, we'll be exploringleadership insights with Maria
(00:55):
Judis, former Hot Studio CEO.
Learning from failure anddesigning change in a complex
world and Maria is no strangerto that complexity.
She is an executive leadershipcoach and the founder of Hot
Studio, the co-author ofChangemakers how to Lead, how
Leaders Can Design and Change,and an insanely complex world
(01:17):
the rise of the DEO leadershipby design.
She coaches and leads workshopsto train executives and their
teams in businesses and designleadership.
She is the founder and formerCEO of Experience Design, the
experience design firm HotStudio, which was acquired in
Facebook in 2013.
There later, then later atAutodesk, she led a global led
(01:40):
global design teams that createdhuman-centered experiences for
millions of people around theworld.
Maria, we are really stoked tohave you here today for you to
share your authentic leadershipexperience.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I am so happy to be here with my ladies.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Right.
It's always good to be in goodcompany of just smart, amazing,
powerful and generous women.
So, again, I know you're on theroad right now, so we do so
much appreciate you taking thetime to pause in your busy
schedule and spend the next hourwith us.
You've had a remarkable journey, becoming and being a woman CEO
(02:18):
in a very male-dominatedindustry, all the way to selling
that company to Facebook, whichis amazing, no small feat.
Could you share some of the keymoments that helped to shape
your leadership path?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I was thinking about this, thissort of like the idea of a
leadership path, and I have tokind of go back to being a child
, like I was that kid whoorganized all the parties, set
the tone, created the experienceand the theme.
(02:52):
Yeah, I was 16.
I had a Toga party.
I had a Toga party for my sweet16 birthday.
But as a child I was alwaysreally good at organizing and
getting a group of peopletogether to believe in something
bigger than them, even if itwas like outrageous, and so I've
(03:18):
always had that sort of gift ofreally getting people to go
along with things and puttingthat leadership sort of profile
to the test.
When I think back in my career,it really started when I was in
my 20s.
(03:39):
My first job out of college Iworked for Access Press, which
designed guidebooks, and the guywho owned Access Press, richard
Werman, got the gig to redesignthe Pacific Bell Yellow Pages
in California, which is how Iaccidentally moved from New York
(03:59):
to California, and so I was atthe sort of very beginning of
starting a new agency to createthe Yellow Pages for all of
California and Nevada.
And he just tossed me, it wasstill a very male dominated
world.
(04:19):
It's like right, what can youdo?
You go do the maps.
Like through that job to me,like go design all the maps for
Nevada and California Soundslike fun and I just had to
figure out how to actuallydesign maps.
And then I had to figure outhow to repeat the design style
(04:42):
across every single Yellow Pagefor California and Nevada.
I mean, these are, I don't know, 40, 50 areas and I had to hire
people to help me.
And so at 24 years old, I hadlike 20 people reporting to me,
designing maps and workingreally hard, long hours, hitting
(05:08):
deadlines, and I think thatreally and really figuring it
out along the way.
I mean I went to art school andgo to business school and so I
think it's, you know, so much ofleadership is really on the job
learning, depending on thecontext you're in.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Absolutely.
I love that answer so much, onebecause you went all the way
back to childhood.
I relate to that a lot because,similarly, I was that kid on
the block that had I think I'vementioned this in past episodes
a what was it called theplaneteers.
Do you remember the planeteers?
I don't know.
It's like it was a cartoon backin the 80s and 90s.
(05:46):
Yeah, it was all about thisgroup of superhero kids that
worked to save the world andsave the planet, and so I was
constantly building groups andclubs to make people feel
included, and so it's like, wow,no wonder I'm running in a
program.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah you go, it's in you and it brings together.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Women it is, and I think sometimes, you know, we
tend to forget those innerchildhood talents, desires and
gifts that we just kind of didwithout question and we don't
think it's something that we canlive out in our careers.
But you absolutely can, and soI hope that encourages
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And you don't have to get an MBA, you don't have to
get in leadership right, youjust have to embody and be, want
to be a leader and have it inyou.
And if you have it in you andit's something you want to do,
you're going to spend the restof your life learning.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I agree, I agree and I do.
I love that too that you wentstraight into being 24 and
managing a team of 20.
I think we do discredit that.
We seem to think that you knoweducation and certificates is
the answer.
But I was just readingyesterday from the US Census
Bureau they're saying that likethe.
It sucks to hear it, buteducation does not close the pay
gap.
(06:55):
Education are getting moredegrees than men, but we're
still getting paid less.
So I think your learnedexperience.
You know you need to learn howto champion that, to celebrate
it and to sell it to others,because it does qualify as
experience, I agree.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Absolutely, Absolutely, Absolutely.
I mean, you know, I am so proud, I'm so happy that the universe
gave me the sex of being awoman, that I identify with
being a woman.
Uh-huh, you know it is astruggle, you know it's like you
know there are.
You know things are stacked arenot necessarily stacked in your
(07:34):
favor, Right.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
There's a lot of stuff you always have to
overcome things.
Yeah, yeah, let's talk aboutthat because, again, like I said
earlier, you know face, so nostranger to facing challenges.
It's definitely a universalexperience, and one that you've
talked about openly inparticular is being forced out
of Autodesk.
I'd love to hear more aboutthat and how you navigated that
(07:56):
challenge in particular, or anyother similar challenges, and
what lessons you learned alongthe way, because you know again,
your story I'm sure is going torelate to a lot of our
listeners.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, yeah.
I like to tell the Autodeskstory because I'm one of those
people who's really like anoverachiever.
You know like I like, I went for, like the you know, 98%, 99, 90
, 100 on report, on my reportcards.
You know, I was like I'm notgoing to tell you I was more.
I was that person which is mustnot fail, right, right, if you
(08:28):
work really, really hard and begreat at what you do, you will
not fail.
That was sort of the mindsetthat I had and, again, being a
woman, I always feel like I hadto do, I had to work twice as
hard.
Oh yeah, you know like.
You know, still, like it's,it's like yeah, and so I grew up
as a tomboy.
I was like I am going to proveto you that I can.
(08:52):
I can not only meet you but beto you.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I had that.
I had that perspective when Iwas running my own agency.
But when I was a VP of designat Autodesk, that was a job that
I absolutely loved.
I struggled.
I sold my company to Facebook.
That was like an amazing momentin time and it was the right
(09:19):
thing to do, but for my companyand for me personally, but I, I,
the culture, I did not alignwell with the culture at
Facebook.
It was like a very male,dominated, every man for himself
kind of culture and I reallydidn't fit in well.
And so when I was recruited togo work at Autodesk as a VP, it
(09:43):
was like a breath of fresh air.
It was the right job for me andit was the right culture.
And I was recruited by the CEOand the chief product officer.
I had my executive sponsors atthe highest level of the
organization.
I had the ability to influenceculture at scale.
I, I and I threw myself intothat job.
(10:06):
I really was like I, I want tomove this culture from being
engineering dominant to beinghuman centered and I was
crushing it.
I felt like and I was holding alot of power.
I realized that my style, myleadership style of including
(10:26):
everybody and not deal.
Not deal with the bullshit ofhierarchy or a caste system, but
like really engaging peopleequally and tapping into their
talents to do something biggerthan what they are doing day to
day.
And I loved that job.
And about two years in, withoutwarning, the CEO, carl Bass,
(10:51):
announces he's retiring, he'sstepping down, and then suddenly
it was like an earthquake inthe company and then there was
like a fight to see who wasgoing to be the CEO.
It was like Mad Max, and it wasbetween my boss, who was the
product guy, and another guywho's the business guy, the
business strategy guy, and I beton my guy, but the other guy
(11:16):
won.
You know, I didn't bet on thewrong horse, right, the wrong
horse won, won, yeah, and andthen all of these people who
were in that camp and I reallyactually liked the business guy,
we actually had a goodrelationship, so it wasn't
(11:37):
antagonistic at all, right, thepeople that were in his camp who
rose to power were not mysupporters, and and so when he
rose to power, he's like Maria,I see what you do, I appreciate
what you do, but you know what Idon't think design is that
(11:57):
important at this level.
Where do you go from there,right Like my.
Basically, your job, your joband your mission and your vision
is no longer wanted in thiscompany.
Wow, and I then, you know, gotpushed out.
I mean, I knew I was gettingpushed out, I wasn't as
surprised at that point and itcrushed me Absolutely.
(12:21):
It, you know, because my mantrawas you do the hard work you
have.
You know, I had stellar, youknow, feedback scores.
I got great.
You know I got raises.
I was making dense in theculture.
People loved me, but sometimesthat stuff doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
You know, and so the big lesson was a gift, and I
like to tell people this in yourdarkest time when you feel like
something bad happened to you,whether it was something that
you initiated, or had a misfire,or it wasn't within your
(13:07):
control.
You lose a job or somethingterrible happens and we start
beating ourselves up.
That's human to do, why it'sall our faults that we suddenly
this happened to us.
But guess what?
It's part of being human Right.
And you have to go through thegrieving process.
You do have to grieve this lossor this change that you
(13:31):
experience, but then, with grief, once you get past that grief,
there's this moment.
And was it built?
William Gibson has a book calledTransitions.
He calls it the neutral zone.
Okay, start to you settle fromthe grief and you have this
(13:52):
moment of insight.
The way I like to call it isyou're lying in a coffin above
ground waiting to be resurrected.
There's this moment ofreflection where you can kind of
like get out of the emotionalstate and go okay, where am I
now?
What did I learn?
Yeah, what is the learning here?
(14:13):
What is the insight?
And then you actually get theinsight which sparks new ideas
and puts you on a differenttrajectory.
Absolutely so.
That was the gift from losing myjob at Autodesk was
experiencing this thing thathappened to me where it never
happened to me before, I nevergot fired Right and what do I
(14:36):
want to make of it?
And that's what got me going onthe book Changemakers.
So the gift was a reflection ofwhat I did well and what I
didn't do well, and then, as adesigner treating everything
like a design problem, then wentand did my research and said,
(14:57):
oh, let me ask other people.
So then I got curious and Iasked, like over the pandemic, I
interviewed like over 40 peoplein different industries who
were in different positions, apower, and I asked them to tell
me their stories.
And that became the bookChangemakers.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
I love it.
Yes, definitely check it out,kaylee.
For our live listeners, she'lldrop the link to the book inside
the chat and we'll include itin the show notes.
I love hearing these stories.
I'm not a huge fan of successwithout strife.
I think that we all get therethrough the struggle.
That's part of kind of makingit.
It just doesn't happenovernight, it's over time and
(15:34):
it's through a lot of thingsthat sometimes we can't control.
And I think that's one thingyou mentioned, like how much of
that was really your fault?
None of it, zero.
You were doing your job.
You were doing a stellar job.
It was that there were certainthings that were out of your
control, that were changing, andit is a matter of sometimes
looking at things and saying isthis happening to me or is this
happening for me Because thebook wouldn't be here?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I don't think right, Would you agree?
No, I wouldn't have done thisbook.
I'd still be at all the desk.
And what are?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
you doing and what do you tell the folks that are
listening?
What are you doing next week?
You're like doing?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
a go ahead.
Oh, I'm doing a workshop forchange makers with my co-author,
Christopher Ireland, who is awoman, who was a woman CEO back
in the day.
So we've been collaborators andpartners for years on things
like this.
It's amazing, but I do want tosay that in any kind of change,
(16:28):
there is things that are withinyour control and things that are
not within your control.
So, that's where the learningcomes from.
So, while I was angry andshocked, I was like none of this
isn't my fault, but then I goOK, what would I have done
differently?
Maybe I wouldn't have ignoredthe people that were feeling
(16:50):
threatened by me Interesting thepeople in power.
You know like there were peoplewho were threatened by the fact
that I was becoming powerful.
Yep, right, and that happens incorporations, sometimes
Absolutely and actuallyunfortunately.
(17:10):
I'm going to say something thatis controversial to say.
When I look back at the peoplewho were the most threatened by
me coming up, it wasn't women,it was other women.
Yeah, and that is because Igrew up at a time that there
weren't things like this, right,I grew up at a time when there
(17:31):
were so few women in companiesthat if there was another woman,
you would have competition.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, compare and compete Absolutely.
I think we're conditioned to dothat because there's only so
much room at the top for women.
Even nowadays, maybe there's alittle more room, there's one or
two extra seats, but thenthere's still 51% of the
workforce are women and still24% of leadership roles are
women.
So it's like, yeah, there's onlyso much room and there's so
(17:58):
many of us, and so we need tostart to find ways to make more
room and not compete andcollaborate in order to achieve
that power.
So, yeah, 100%, I think that's.
I look forward to the day thatwe have equality and we don't
have to have things necessarilylike this in these conversations
so we can just focus on movingall of humanity forward.
(18:20):
But until then, I think it's avery fair statement and I think
it's very true.
Even still today, women feelingthreatened by other women, but
even just ambitious women ingeneral, right, it's just like
you're like the bull in theChina shop.
You're the one who asked thequestions, you're the one who
asks for the opportunity to growand raise and promote and all
(18:41):
of those things and, dependingupon the culture, yeah, that can
really put you in a precariousplace when it comes time for a
leadership change.
I'm not sure how much I wentinto it.
I haven't listened to the firstepisode of this podcast in a
while, but I'd mentioned earlierthat I kind of shared my story
as the very first episode of thePower Lounge and I went through
something relatively similar.
(19:02):
It wasn't as big as Autodesk,it was a much smaller,
independently owned and operatedcompany and I very much had my
sights on being an executivecreative director and through a
series of very unfortunateevents and a lot of trauma I
ended up also kind of making asemi amicable agreement to leave
because the CEO had kind ofjust all of a sudden left and
(19:24):
the whole world just fell apart.
But up to that point I was soblissful in that job, you know
it was exactly the role I hadbeen wanting and looking for.
And then I saw this changehappening.
And I'm not the kind that, likewhen I see a change coming, I
start to freak out and duck away.
I kind of get in it and I wantto like figure out how we can
make the most of the change asan opportunity.
(19:45):
But I think sometimes that ismet with some concern and or
animosity from others.
So that is a challenge, but youknow what that's the beauty of
working for yourself.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You don't have to worry about that anymore, but I
did want to go ahead.
There are always stakeholders,no matter what you do.
Exactly that's true.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Right, that's true.
That's a good point.
I know that the workshop youall are hosting is at Stanford
University as well, so you areall doing some really awesome
and amazing work with the bookand with the content and helping
shape tomorrow's leaders.
Let's dig into that a littlebit more, because you also work,
as you know.
You talked a lot about designand design problems and design
(20:27):
thinking, and you like to thinkof everything as a design
problem, so I would love for youto elaborate on that a little
bit more and how that mindsethas helped to influence your
approach in both leadership andproblem solving.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, it is.
Treating everything as a designproblem is a way in which you
can look at the world withcuriosity and creativity.
So, because you know, design isabout, you know, creating
making something new right, andmaybe something that is existing
(21:03):
or something that hasn'texisted before right.
And so this idea of creationgives you the permission to not
necessarily be the smartestperson in the room, you know and
and and gives you permission toput aside your own biases or
preconceived notions byexploring, by exploring the
problem based on what ispossible.
(21:25):
So every good design processstarts with discovery and asking
questions and looking at worldsdifferently and more broadly
and hopefully without bias.
And when you do that, then youcan look for patterns, and we,
through the lens of listening topeople, and you look for
(21:46):
patterns that bubble up andcreate a vision that came from
the very people that you areserving.
So it's like a, it's like aco-created vision, as then you
could implement right.
So so it gives me permissionfeeling good about not knowing
(22:09):
something.
Yes, if I, if I'm, if I don't,because my whole design career,
working with clients, hundredsof clients in different domains
and different competencies, Ihad to learn things you know so
I could be a good designer.
Like I remember in the 90searly days of web.
(22:30):
Like I had to learn about howserver farms work.
Sounds like fun.
You know what I like?
Geek out on that shit, right.
You know it's like you know,give me something like really
like hardcore that I will never,ever know about or care to know
about my life and pay me tolearn yes, right.
(22:53):
And so I think about like 20years of hot studio working with
such a wide range of clientsand so many domains gave me an
incredible view of the world andeducation that into spaces I
never would have gone withoutthat.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
That is such a great point.
I think that is a definitereason.
I feel like most of the womenwhen I think about together
digital.
They are lifelong learners.
They do love to dig into, evenoutside of industries of their
own.
But that's part of it.
Right, you have to understandthe core before you can really
start to solve the problem.
And I do think you know it doeswork so well.
That idea of active listeningand empathy, which you know, I
(23:32):
think are strong characteristicsof most women, do lend
themselves so well to influence,which then becomes leadership
but also helps with problemsolving.
So I 100% agree with you.
I think design thinking is asmart way to sort of begin to
objectively approach newproblems and situations and
really set yourself apart as aleader.
(23:53):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And it's like everything I do, you know, just
even have to be a gig, it's just, you know, I, just I lead with
imagination and data.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Keep the curiosity coming, let's talk a little bit
about failure.
Learning from failure is apowerful concept and I'm, like I
said earlier, a huge proponentof not promoting the idea of
success without strife ordispelling that notion.
Could you share a specificinstance where failure played a
crucial role in yourprofessional development, and
(24:30):
what lessons has it taught you?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Well, I mean, I think I just gave you like the major
failure story about Autodesk andthe gifts that came along with
that and that was, you know,like.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I think would you call that a failure.
I guess that's my pushback.
Would you say that that's afailure?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, I don't, I don't demonize the word failure
at all.
Yeah, I think I think you knowwe are humans and the failure is
a way of learning.
Now it sucks, it totally sucks,and it hurts, yeah, and it you
know, and it it fucks with yourhead, yeah, it's no fun to fail.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Nobody enjoys it.
It totally does.
Nobody loves failure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
But.
But it's the only way to kindof like learn and take stock of
what's there, and so you canhave a smart failure or you can
have a dumb failure.
Sure, right, yeah.
And.
And in design there aremultiple ways in which you can
fail early, fail smartly trythings out, prototype them and
(25:40):
see whether they work or not.
Right, there's like smartfailure.
And then there's dumb failure.
Where you like, step down theline and you broken somebody's
trust, right.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yes, right.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
And so there's a, there's a.
Amy Edmondson wrote a bookabout this and she talks about
sort of this failure spectrum,Okay, and that everybody fails.
So what are some of the where,what are some of the things that
you can do so you don't, youdon't create your like
irreparable harm?
(26:12):
you know, and so failure isreally part of it, and so, as a
leader, I really want to educatepeople that report to me that
don't be afraid to fail, and upto it, yes, and the best way you
can recover from failure isowning up to it and not trying
(26:36):
to hide it, right.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Absolutely Well, cause it, like you said,
especially when you've kind ofbroken someone's trust, which is
absolutely essential in therole of a leader, in my opinion.
Yeah, if you don't takeownership publicly and address
it, then how are you ever meantto mend that?
You know Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
And when you own up to the failure it takes, it
empowers you, yes, it doesn'tdeflate you, right.
Right, because you're nothiding behind something.
And that's one of those valuesthat I've kind of kept current
my whole life around Try to be,as always, try to be radically
(27:19):
honest about things, yeah, andnot to hurt people.
But to you know, I'm a terribleliar, right.
So it's so much better to behonest and get down, ripped, the
bandaid off, than it is hidebehind something that's going to
bite you in the ass later on.
And so you know, there's thisimprov, this is improv activity,
(27:46):
which is like the failureactivity.
I took an improv class.
I suck.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
But I hated it, but I did it and I failed it.
I failed it in prop andwhenever in improv, whenever you
fail, you're supposed to throwyour arms up and tell the group
and yell oh, that's so cool, Ifailed, yeah, and I actually
enjoyed that part of it and Iprobably grew up my arms a lot
in improv, but I love that, like, okay, release it.
(28:17):
And then.
So in the book we talk aboutfailure a lot and Justin McGuire
was the chief product officerat chief creative officer at
Salesforce.
He said you know, as a leader,you have to own the sword and
(28:38):
fall on it.
Yeah, On the sword you own yourmistakes and then you ask how
you can learn from them.
So if you own failure, like Ifailed, what can I learn from
this?
Right, so you're askingyourself or you're asking the
people that you, you know thatyou failed with Yep and that
(28:59):
that gives you your power back,when you can own your own
failure.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I agree.
I love that so much.
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(29:52):
I was really impressed.
Yesterday I was at an event andI heard Jeff Burding, who was
the co-CEO here in Cincinnatifor FC Cincinnati.
He talked about his leadershipstyle and how it was just growth
at any cost and go, go, go,constantly pushing.
He had a passion, he had avision and he was clearly just a
visionary and very much so.
(30:13):
He hired a bunch of people tobasically get the job done and
achieve the impossible, whichwas an established major league
soccer team here in the city ofCincinnati.
They got there and as soon asthey got there and he admitted
this in a room of over 100 womensaid as soon as we achieved
that and got the MLS deal, athird of our people quit.
(30:35):
I'm like wow, like to admitthat.
And he said you know, Irealized at that moment that my
leadership style was not goingto be the thing that continued
to make my vision that I had,you know, for the city and for
my children to come to life.
He said I had to really lookinside and do some inner work,
(30:57):
and so one to have a leader onthe stage saying that was
wonderful to have a white maleleader on stage.
I was like oh yeah, I might belooking at some FC since 90
season tickets, not that I don'tlove them already, but just the
willingness.
And I think if more leaders canmodel that behavior that you're
saying of owning that failureand making it something that is
(31:19):
allowable and that actuallyempowers us and grows us all,
versus holds us back andsomething worth hiding, modeling
that behavior and having thosekinds of conversations it's just
, it's only going to help us all.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So yeah, thank you.
I want to share a story, sothat kind of underscores this.
So you know again, like I toldyou, I was the overachiever and
I never failed big and thisAutodesk thing was like felt
like scarlet letter on my career.
Sure, Suddenly, everything thatI did up into this time didn't
(31:52):
count right.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
And I was right.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Marvel stories and I was.
I got laid off in like November, and then I was scheduled to do
a closing keynote for theinvisible conference in San
Francisco and the and in thattalk I was supposed to talk
about all of the accomplishmentsthat I had achieved as a VP of
(32:17):
design at a 33 year old techcompany.
Like I was going to tell thestory of how, how successful I
was.
And here I was laid off.
Nobody knew, nobody knew.
And and so I, you know, and I,you know, I spent the.
I spent the winter, you know,spent Christmas holidays like
(32:41):
sitting in a no sitting, staringat an ocean, reading, running
around books, running my soulRight, as a lot of women do.
And and then I was like, ok,how am I going to handle this?
And I was like you know what?
But radically honest, I'm justgoing to like come out and tell
people I'm fired.
I'm going to like, I'm going tolike with the world that this
(33:04):
overachiever, so brave that can,oh my God.
And and so I changed my entiretalk and I didn't tell them.
And I'm getting on the page andI'm talking about and I
summarized all of the greatthings that were happening at
Autodesk.
Yeah, and I tell the story ofhow Carl steps down and my boss
(33:29):
quits black screen Nobody, no,no leadership sponsor, no
champion.
Yeah, I got shown the door andthen I said and I, and then I, I
honestly expressed and said I'm.
These are all the emotions I'mfeeling right now and honestly,
don't know what I'm going to dowith the rest of my life as a 55
(33:50):
year old woman.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, wow.
What was the response like?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
And one of the that visible like audible gasps in
the room, right, I'm likeclosing keynote model of success
.
And here I am telling peoplethat I'm wounded and hurt and
angry and I don't know what I'mgoing to do.
And and I asked the question,how many people in this room
(34:19):
were left a job when it wasn'ttheir choice?
And I want to say like 75% ofthe people at hand, but it was
it that was there.
That was their invitation to,kind of like, speak their truth.
Yes, without chain, I love it.
And again, that's an example ofclaiming your power and
(34:43):
bringing it back.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Absolutely and now.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I no longer had a secret and now use that.
I could use that as a way oftelling people.
I have experienced this likeyou, and I see you and I feel,
but you're, you're going tofigure, you're going to figure
it out, right.
I love that need to be anexecutive coach, but that was
(35:09):
that moment where you just Ilove it.
That's your story.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Thank you so much for sharing that and you know, as
you're speaking, we summonBrunet Brown yet again on the
podcast.
Someday she'll be a guestsomeday.
Universe.
But yeah, I mean, how muchshame you owning your truth and
speaking your truth in a in aforum such as that.
How much unburdening does thatdo in the sense of?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
like relieving your shame.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
You know it's like when you think shame, I think,
oh, it was take a Brunet.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Right, it freed me and it also it, and then it also
gave me again.
The gift was now I can helpother people when they lose
their job.
Yes, oh yeah.
As a coach, I know what itfeels like.
I know stories they're tellingthemselves.
I know that it's going to taketime, like a lot of life
(36:00):
experience.
Yes, being I'm like going to be61 years old in February,
that's crazy.
You know and you know.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
I need your skincare regimen.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
In my late fifties, I was, like you know, really
worried about aging, especiallybeing in tech.
Yeah, then, when you hit yoursixties, like I did last year,
there's there is this weirdfemale power that comes back.
Oh, yeah, and it's just like Ihave lived a full life.
Yes, I know where the bodiesare buried.
(36:35):
You can no longer questionwhether or not I know what I'm
doing because I've lived it.
Yes, exactly, and that gives me.
That gives me so much energyand like there's so much power
and wisdom.
Yes, so much power, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
When you live.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
I live in the Bay Area, but I grew up in New York,
yeah, and.
But you know there's there areso many women in their sixties
that I look at now who are suchbad asses.
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Absolutely.
That is like prime time We'veactually had a conversation.
It might have been before.
We did this as a podcast.
It was still just a webinar.
We talked about menopause andwomen and their careers and how
really you know you're goingback to your pre-pubescent self
once you're post menopausal andall of those kind of effects of
(37:30):
your kind of cycle up and downleft and right and then every
which way that it goes duringmenopause.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
I know I'm pre-menopausal.
It's a load of fun.
I know it's going to be great.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
So much fun, but after that, yeah, you're, you're
like, it's like you're rebornand you have this new energy.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
And if you have children, you know they're.
They're usually grown in, outof the house If they hate to say
, if you've got elderly parents,they may be gone by then or in
somebody else's care, and sothere's this whole sense of
freedom and opportunity.
And then what sucks about itobviously is our society
penalizes you as a woman.
The older you get, right, yeah,you're not more experienced or
seasoned, but absolutely you are, and I love what you're saying
(38:07):
about and I think it's so true.
So many amazing books, podcasts, conversations like these
coaches, you know, talks havebeen born from the shit that you
go through.
So I agree with you so muchthat sometimes the the hard
parts of life that you are inrealize that once you get and if
you can't, you know, once youget and if you can get yourself
beyond and you will get yourselfbeyond that what you have now
(38:28):
is a whole new set of skillsthat you can share with others
to help them through thatprocess or maybe to even avoid
the process and the dealaltogether.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
And so many role models, whether you know them
personally or not, or out right.
So my co, my co-author,christopher Ireland, as I
mentioned, she's about 10 yearsolder than me and and she was a
CEO she was one of the few womenCEOs in tech yeah, wow, the few
(38:57):
women CEOs in tech back in theday.
So we were we always kind oflike bonded, like okay, like
what are you experiencing?
What kind of like, you know,prejudice or, you know, are you
experiencing as a woman leader?
And or how are you doing X, yand Z?
So we were always able to share, but I'm always looking at
(39:18):
where she is right now.
Yeah, you know, she's actuallydoing yoga while I'm, while I'm,
while I'm working.
She's doing, but I'm, I look ather and I'm watching her live
her life.
Yep, and it's just so inspiring.
Oh yeah, to have role models,and I always say look for great
(39:42):
role models, yes, and I'm somuch from them and it gives you
hope.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Yes, Absolutely.
This might explain why many ofmy closest friends are in their
fifties because I'm I'm 42.
Yeah, so it's one of thosethings I feel like I can always
look and sort of talk.
I have my peers also, which areobviously a great source of
power and support.
Yes, but those that are womenthat are just a little bit ahead
of you in life it is.
It's so great to be close tothem and understand and know the
(40:07):
intricacies of what's ahead foryou.
We did get a question from oneof our live listeners, from Anna
, so I wanted I want to makesure we ask it and then we'll
get on to the next few questions.
With such so much experience,how would a person know where to
direct their time in order torebuild themselves?
Or do you do everything and seewhat sticks?
Interesting question, Anna.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Question and I really appreciate the people who've
dialed in live, yeah, the mostimportant people in the room
right now, right.
So you know, that is like areally hard question to answer,
especially from somebody like mewho is interested in literally
(40:49):
everything, and it's really it'sa work in progress for me.
And as I get older, well, thisis just really interesting.
That's happening to me again,turning 60 and my mother just
died, and you know, like whenyou hit your 60s, people that
are people are close to youstart dying.
(41:09):
Yeah, and it is.
It is brutal, but there's.
So, again, there's a gift inthat.
Like, what's the gift ofwitnessing all these people in
your life who are starting toleave this, this earth, and be
in the spirit world?
Yeah, it gives me a Gave meperspective that you know I have
(41:30):
like maybe 20 good years left,you know, before my body just
starts giving up on me.
I might live longer, but youknow it's not gonna be like I'm
not gonna be able to gorollerblading down right, right,
so.
So that has given me newfoundPerspective for me to appreciate
(41:52):
.
Every day I wake up breathingand healthy mm-hmm and the and
to be in the present moment, notnecessarily the future, or or
try to relive the past and toask myself what's going to give
me joy today?
Mm-hmm, how can I make the mostof this day?
(42:14):
How can I miss the best dayever?
I love that and and and so I,you know, love that and I try to
live that life, to try to bepresent and appreciate every day
I'm breathing and I'm healthymm-hmm and I also am thinking
about Arm.
(42:34):
Am I making the right choices in?
Am I doing things that I wantto do, or am I doing things that
I think I should be doing?
Yes, in order to feed my ego,which we all have ego, yes, bad
things.
Just what's in our head, mm-hmm, or feet, or feed my like, my,
my, my professional story, myprofessional self and all these
(42:58):
things.
So I'm constantly checking withmyself.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I'm saying yes to this.
What am I saying no to?
Speaker 1 (43:06):
and am.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
I okay with that.
Yeah, so that's that's theadvice I would give, was it,
anna?
Uh-huh?
Yeah, anna, to make sure, likeif you're one of these people
who, like me, who is interestedin a million things, start
looking, taking stock and sayingis this what I really want to
(43:26):
do?
Is this what my heart isdriving?
Is this is?
Is this something that I, thatI truly want, that's gonna help
me grow, that's gonna give melife, energy, positive energy,
or is it a burden that I think Ihave to do because it's it's
gonna feed something else?
Speaker 1 (43:42):
right.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, make sure you're doing it for the right
reasons do it for the rightreasons and and recognize this
is so important is, if you'resaying yes, we're also saying no
to something else.
Such a good point, and you livewith that.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Mm-hmm and how often do we slow down and take the
time to really reflect on that?
I think we kind of just flythrough life we.
We live our lives by our to-dolist and we don't slow down to
really think about.
You know, what are the thingsthat make me feel fulfilled,
that make me feel inspired?
We do a goal getters Workshophere together, digital the start
of every year and kind ofcontinue it throughout the year,
(44:19):
and one of the things we do isan energy audit where you look
at your calendar and you market.
Red, yellow, green.
Red for the things that zap you.
Yellow for the things that arekind of okay, yeah, green for
the things that really energizedyou, because I don't think we
take that time to really noticewhen we're and how we tend to be
in our zone and feel our best,because that's also typically
when we perform our best, yeah.
(44:42):
So I think taking that time toreflect at any and all times is
such a good thing to do.
And I think one other thing Iwanted to share I love sharing
therapy Therapist hey, beverly,if you ever listened, she talks
about decision-making and Ithink this has been really
helpful for me.
So hopefully Anna will behelpful for you, because I see
the member and I do know Anna alittle bit Is that we all kind
(45:04):
of fall into this like a littleinverted triangle of
decision-making.
At the very top are theexplorers, people who love To
constantly be looking for andexploring ideas, and it can
almost feel overwhelmingsometimes because you see all
possibilities in all avenues butyou'll never make a decision
because it's all about theexploration.
At the very bottom of thattriangle are the researchers,
people who kind of focus andhone in on one possibility, one
(45:27):
Opportunity, and we'll justresearch it to death and it has
to be perfect before they'llmake a decision.
Yeah, if they make a decision,yeah, the folks that sit in
between which, apparently, iswhere I fall are the very
time-based decision-makers.
What's great is that they'llkind of tap into exploratory,
they'll kind of tap into theresearch, but they won't make a
decision until, like, their feetare held to the fire or it's
(45:50):
the exact right, opportune time.
It's, yeah, timing, andactually, less about is this the
better choice?
So, maybe, anna, spending alittle bit of time reflecting,
doing some of the things thatthe Maria advised, and then also
kind of exploring andUnderstanding what your
decision-making style is.
Make sure you just stop fallinginto any of those traps, don't
I?
Speaker 2 (46:07):
am.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Analysis, paralysis.
Gal will spend a lot of time inthat space, but I've tried to
lean into more of my time-baseddecision-making to really kind
of get myself past Passed that.
But thank you for the question.
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Two good tips.
You know and I do energy auditswith my clients all the- time.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Yeah, I love it.
Let's talk about that too,because you are an executive
coach and I scroll past myquestion.
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
What are some?
Speaker 1 (46:33):
patterns or struggles do you observe among leaders,
and how do you help guide themthrough some of those challenges
?
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, well, the, the I am an executive coach now.
Again a gift out of thatfailure.
Right, because, because,remember, when I stood on that
stage, I Didn't know what I wasdoing next, and when I got
through the grief and I was inthat neutral zone and I started
thinking about what's possible,I, I Started thinking about
(47:03):
reflecting on my life andlooking for, like, the through
line.
Yeah, what were the things, ifI look at my whole arc of my
career, where I get the most joy?
Yes, and it was lifting peopleup, working with people and
helping them be Better versionsof themselves, and that's that
was that insight that I neverwould have gotten to if I didn't
(47:26):
go through what I went through,to realize that this is what I
should be doing now and so.
So that's what I do and I workwith people and I like to tell
people that I'm really good athelping people quit their job.
I.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Feel like I might be okay that too yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Whether they know it or not, right, right, no, but
you know.
And so a lot of people come tome.
A lot of people are intransition.
Right, we all go throughtransitions and and you know
whether you're really young andyou're questioning whether you
want to stay in tech, whetheryou're older and you realize
(48:09):
maybe you don't want to bemanaging people anymore yeah,
these are people who you know.
Again, they're like this is mycareer, this is what I should be
doing.
Here's the ladder Mm-hmm.
And I remind people there's nosuch thing as a career ladder,
it's a career trampoline.
Oh, that's fun, I like yeah andRight, that's comes from rise of
(48:31):
the do and and so I really like, and so a lot of the Coaching
is really to help people tobuild self-awareness, mm-hmm, of
themselves.
Who are they when they are attheir best?
What do they like when they'reat their best, energetically, um
(48:51):
, behaviorally, what kind ofhabits do they have, what kind
of things do they do?
And how are they when they showup?
scared and Interesting what yeah, and and when they're.
You know when they're becausewe all have the reward response
and the threat response in ourmind.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
What does that tell them when you're asking them
about like what, what, what?
Speaker 2 (49:14):
the second part, the, the fear here because you have
to know, because when you're up,when you're threatened mm-hmm,
or when others are threatenedMm-hmm, how is?
How is that different than whenyou're at your best?
What?
What behaviors do you have down?
You fight, flight or freeze,yeah, yeah, okay, and Do you?
(49:38):
Does your body change?
You get tightening in the chest, mm-hmm.
And how does that energy impactthe other people in the room?
Speaker 1 (49:47):
100% because?
Speaker 2 (49:48):
because Emotions are contagious.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
Yes, that was an empath, I agree, but yeah,
that's great.
So how you show?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
up really matters, mm-hmm.
And then, are you living yourlife more in fear, or are you
living your life in Likecuriosity and creativity?
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Oh that question about to undo some people.
I.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Help people like understand who they are and why
they get when they get triggered, and yeah and also, you know,
helping them step into thethings that they want to do.
But are afraid to do.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, that's so great.
I Want to make sure I ask thistoo, because we haven't dropped
it in the chat yet.
But if folks are interested inyour executive coaching services
, where should they go?
Speaker 2 (50:37):
They could.
You can go to hot studiocom.
That's my website.
It's really old.
Don't judge me, because I don'treally enjoy doing.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
We got some people that can help you with that.
Maria, amazing ladies that canhelp you with that.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Yeah, yeah, or you can contact me on LinkedIn, okay
.
All of those are Ways in whichI can.
You can reach me, okay.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Awesome.
I'm trying to think we've gotjust a few minutes left and I
want to leave a second forquestions, If anyone in our live
listening audience has them aswell.
So I'm trying to decide of mylast few questions.
Which one I want to ask youbecause I could just keep you
here the rest of the day.
But you've got some stuff toget to.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Let's nobody's knocking on my door kicking me
out of my head.
That's good.
So we're good, we're good.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Actually, let me do this.
I'm gonna kind of cheat code itright as we're as we're waiting
it to see if there's any otherquestions from our audience is
We've talked about a lot ofeverything from design thinking
to to leadership, to change, tobeing a woman in tech.
What, if?
Is there anything that youdon't feel like we've maybe said
or covered, or what would besort of your Last piece of
(51:48):
advice for our listeners to kindof take away from today's
conversation?
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Oh, like I said, I am so Happy the universe made me a
woman.
Yeah, I think as women, we haveso much power 100% and and
which is why Certain gendersmight want to try to hold us
back, because they're afraid ofthe power and I feel bad,
(52:12):
because I do love men, I loveyou, but I'm talking to my
ladies and I really do believethat we are we are still always
have to work twice as hard toget what we need to get.
That is the reality that I grewup with and it's it's,
unfortunately, still the samecase today.
There are more women inleadership positions, which is
(52:35):
really encouraging, yeah, but itis a.
I always say the best measure ofsuccess is progress.
As long as we keep makingprogress, there will be setbacks
, and we have seen some of thesesetbacks recently in politics
for women and women's health.
Yeah, and it sucks, but thatjust means we have to be more
(52:59):
resilient and stronger and wenevertheless will persist.
Yes, and we keep pushingforward 100%.
And you know, I am just.
I love being a woman, I lovebeing a woman role model.
Yep, and I want to see more andmore women step up to the plate
and show their power, becausethey have it in spades.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
Right and I think we have 100% agree, and as soon as,
the sooner we can all start torealize that the better the
whole entire world is going tobe right Exactly.
I think that's the differenceof.
You know people talk a lotabout power from versus power to
.
I think women tend to kind oflead because we're more
community minded, where we'rereared that way, we're wired
that way to give more power to.
So when we receive power, wegive power in return, which is
(53:42):
exactly the point of thispodcast and our together digital
community, which is why I wasso excited to connect with you
and have the opportunity tobring you on to the podcast.
I think definitely everyonewho's listening.
If you want to hear more fromMaria, follow her on LinkedIn.
Check out hot studios website,get the book.
Change makers of the rise ofthe DEO.
(54:02):
We do have two questions.
One that's directed at you,maria, so I'm going to go ahead
and answer that and then, if wehave a minute, I'll come back to
the one that was actuallydirected at me.
Okay, let's see, as a woman intech, what advice would you give
to a younger woman who may needhelp in the future or as they
bring you back to the world?
And what advice would you giveto a young woman who may need
help in the future or?
Speaker 2 (54:23):
as they begin their professional career.
You have a long way ahead ofyou, right?
So, and and really just don'tget scared.
If there's things you don'tknow, you are young and you're
not supposed to know, becauseyou have to go through the life
experience.
Find, when you're young andyou're starting out, there are
(54:50):
so many great women or other, oreven men, met male mentor, who
are more than willing to helpyou.
So you got to seek them out andfind them, and and that, and
they will be guideposts for youas you kind of grow and learn
how you build your story in tech.
(55:13):
And you know it can be.
Tech is not, cannot could be afriendly environment, but more
often than not it's not veryfriendly.
And I don't know.
You know it depends on yourdiscipline.
You know, if you are designing,your closer to people, if
(55:34):
you're an engineering, you'recloser to the pixels.
Just make sure you find thehumanity in what you're doing
and people that you're workingwith.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
I love that.
I love that.
That's such great advice.
I think I read a stat somewherethat like 30% of women who
started tech leave it before theage of 30.
But that number changesdrastically when you surround
yourself with peers and mentorsand champions and sponsors,
people who will speak your namein the rooms that you're not in,
will give you the opportunitiesand the projects that maybe
(56:05):
others think you're not quoteunquote ready for yet.
Because it is.
It's a long and bumpy road andI think the best way to do that
is not to go it alone, right,Not to make you feel like you've
got to figure it all out foryourself and you know, again,
put perfection aside, have thatlearners mindset and you'll be
okay.
All right, we've got like aminute.
I will try to answer thisquestion for you, for our other
(56:27):
listener.
It says can you share moreabout the decision making
process you mentioned earlier tohelp with analysis paralysis?
I don't know.
I'll have to look around andsee if there's actually any sort
of.
I'm sure there's research andpapers out on this, because she
kind of just explained the sortof inverted triangle and the
decision making sort ofunderstanding.
What is your decision makingstyle?
There might even be quizzesonline.
(56:47):
I'll do a little research afterthis and and get back to you
while we can maybe include it inthe show notes of you know just
understanding what is yourdecision making style so that
you can see the traps right, youcan see the mind traps, you can
see the gaps in which maybe youmight be getting stuck.
So you know that might be evenunderstanding why you struggle
to make a decision.
(57:07):
Is it because you're exploringconstantly and you're not coming
into it?
Is it because you're waitingfor the exact right time, or is
it because you are just too busyfocused on one potential
possibility?
So those are kind of the threeways you can kind of think about
how you typically makeespecially big decisions and
where you fall, and then sort offrom there begin to sort of
(57:30):
understand how to get yourselfunstuck.
But yeah, I will do some, I'lldo some research in that
analysis.
Paralysis I think we hit anerve there.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
And I talk.
We talk about decision makingin our book.
Change method Perfect, thereyou go.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Answers are in the book.
That's right, fantastic.
Well, this was so wonderful,maria.
Thank you again.
I hope we get to hang out soon.
Speaker 2 (57:52):
I know we're not in the same country.
Speaker 1 (57:53):
but you know what, at some point it's bound to happen
.
I feel it, yeah that's right.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
I mean, I I like to say yes when people invite me to
come out and, do you know,talks about my book.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
So any of you out there want to go to Ohio.
Speaker 2 (58:08):
Yes, community people who willing to pay for my
travel.
We got it.
Speaker 1 (58:12):
We're going to work on it in the middle of the
winter, right?
Yeah, no, we wouldn't do thatto you.
We wouldn't do that to you.
All right, wonderful, well,thank you again.
So much Save travels.
Good luck at your workshop nextweek, and thank you all for
joining us and listening.
This has been wonderful.
We will see you all next week.
Take care and bye, bye.
Welcome to our weekly Power Lounge, your place to
hear authentic conversationsfrom those who have power to
share.
My name is Amy Vaughn and I amthe owner and Chief Empowerment
Officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who work indigital and choose to share
(00:28):
their knowledge, power andconnections.
Join the movement atwwwtogetherindigitalcom.
Let's get started.
This week, we'll be exploringleadership insights with Maria
(00:55):
Judis, former Hot Studio CEO.
Learning from failure anddesigning change in a complex
world and Maria is no strangerto that complexity.
She is an executive leadershipcoach and the founder of Hot
Studio, the co-author ofChangemakers how to Lead, how
Leaders Can Design and Change,and an insanely complex world
(01:17):
the rise of the DEO leadershipby design.
She coaches and leads workshopsto train executives and their
teams in businesses and designleadership.
She is the founder and formerCEO of Experience Design, the
experience design firm HotStudio, which was acquired in
Facebook in 2013.
There later, then later atAutodesk, she led a global led
(01:40):
global design teams that createdhuman-centered experiences for
millions of people around theworld.
Maria, we are really stoked tohave you here today for you to
share your authentic leadershipexperience.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I am so happy to be here with my ladies.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Right.
It's always good to be in goodcompany of just smart, amazing,
powerful and generous women.
So, again, I know you're on theroad right now, so we do so
much appreciate you taking thetime to pause in your busy
schedule and spend the next hourwith us.
You've had a remarkable journey, becoming and being a woman CEO
(02:18):
in a very male-dominatedindustry, all the way to selling
that company to Facebook, whichis amazing, no small feat.
Could you share some of the keymoments that helped to shape
your leadership path?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I was thinking about this, thissort of like the idea of a
leadership path, and I have tokind of go back to being a child
, like I was that kid whoorganized all the parties, set
the tone, created the experienceand the theme.
(02:52):
Yeah, I was 16.
I had a Toga party.
I had a Toga party for my sweet16 birthday.
But as a child I was alwaysreally good at organizing and
getting a group of peopletogether to believe in something
bigger than them, even if itwas like outrageous, and so I've
(03:18):
always had that sort of gift ofreally getting people to go
along with things and puttingthat leadership sort of profile
to the test.
When I think back in my career,it really started when I was in
my 20s.
(03:39):
My first job out of college Iworked for Access Press, which
designed guidebooks, and the guywho owned Access Press, richard
Werman, got the gig to redesignthe Pacific Bell Yellow Pages
in California, which is how Iaccidentally moved from New York
(03:59):
to California, and so I was atthe sort of very beginning of
starting a new agency to createthe Yellow Pages for all of
California and Nevada.
And he just tossed me, it wasstill a very male dominated
world.
(04:19):
It's like right, what can youdo?
You go do the maps.
Like through that job to me,like go design all the maps for
Nevada and California Soundslike fun and I just had to
figure out how to actuallydesign maps.
And then I had to figure outhow to repeat the design style
(04:42):
across every single Yellow Pagefor California and Nevada.
I mean, these are, I don't know, 40, 50 areas and I had to hire
people to help me.
And so at 24 years old, I hadlike 20 people reporting to me,
designing maps and workingreally hard, long hours, hitting
(05:08):
deadlines, and I think thatreally and really figuring it
out along the way.
I mean I went to art school andgo to business school and so I
think it's, you know, so much ofleadership is really on the job
learning, depending on thecontext you're in.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Absolutely.
I love that answer so much, onebecause you went all the way
back to childhood.
I relate to that a lot because,similarly, I was that kid on
the block that had I think I'vementioned this in past episodes
a what was it called theplaneteers.
Do you remember the planeteers?
I don't know.
It's like it was a cartoon backin the 80s and 90s.
(05:46):
Yeah, it was all about thisgroup of superhero kids that
worked to save the world andsave the planet, and so I was
constantly building groups andclubs to make people feel
included, and so it's like, wow,no wonder I'm running in a
program.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah you go, it's in you and it brings together.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Women it is, and I think sometimes, you know, we
tend to forget those innerchildhood talents, desires and
gifts that we just kind of didwithout question and we don't
think it's something that we canlive out in our careers.
But you absolutely can, and soI hope that encourages
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And you don't have to get an MBA, you don't have to
get in leadership right, youjust have to embody and be, want
to be a leader and have it inyou.
And if you have it in you andit's something you want to do,
you're going to spend the restof your life learning.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I agree, I agree and I do.
I love that too that you wentstraight into being 24 and
managing a team of 20.
I think we do discredit that.
We seem to think that you knoweducation and certificates is
the answer.
But I was just readingyesterday from the US Census
Bureau they're saying that likethe.
It sucks to hear it, buteducation does not close the pay
gap.
(06:55):
Education are getting moredegrees than men, but we're
still getting paid less.
So I think your learnedexperience.
You know you need to learn howto champion that, to celebrate
it and to sell it to others,because it does qualify as
experience, I agree.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Absolutely, Absolutely, Absolutely.
I mean, you know, I am so proud, I'm so happy that the universe
gave me the sex of being awoman, that I identify with
being a woman.
Uh-huh, you know it is astruggle, you know it's like you
know there are.
You know things are stacked arenot necessarily stacked in your
(07:34):
favor, Right.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
There's a lot of stuff you always have to
overcome things.
Yeah, yeah, let's talk aboutthat because, again, like I said
earlier, you know face, so nostranger to facing challenges.
It's definitely a universalexperience, and one that you've
talked about openly inparticular is being forced out
of Autodesk.
I'd love to hear more aboutthat and how you navigated that
(07:56):
challenge in particular, or anyother similar challenges, and
what lessons you learned alongthe way, because you know again,
your story I'm sure is going torelate to a lot of our
listeners.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, yeah.
I like to tell the Autodeskstory because I'm one of those
people who's really like anoverachiever.
You know like I like, I went for, like the you know, 98%, 99, 90
, 100 on report, on my reportcards.
You know, I was like I'm notgoing to tell you I was more.
I was that person which is mustnot fail, right, right, if you
(08:28):
work really, really hard and begreat at what you do, you will
not fail.
That was sort of the mindsetthat I had and, again, being a
woman, I always feel like I hadto do, I had to work twice as
hard.
Oh yeah, you know like.
You know, still, like it's,it's like yeah, and so I grew up
as a tomboy.
I was like I am going to proveto you that I can.
(08:52):
I can not only meet you but beto you.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I had that.
I had that perspective when Iwas running my own agency.
But when I was a VP of designat Autodesk, that was a job that
I absolutely loved.
I struggled.
I sold my company to Facebook.
That was like an amazing momentin time and it was the right
(09:19):
thing to do, but for my companyand for me personally, but I, I,
the culture, I did not alignwell with the culture at
Facebook.
It was like a very male,dominated, every man for himself
kind of culture and I reallydidn't fit in well.
And so when I was recruited togo work at Autodesk as a VP, it
(09:43):
was like a breath of fresh air.
It was the right job for me andit was the right culture.
And I was recruited by the CEOand the chief product officer.
I had my executive sponsors atthe highest level of the
organization.
I had the ability to influenceculture at scale.
I, I and I threw myself intothat job.
(10:06):
I really was like I, I want tomove this culture from being
engineering dominant to beinghuman centered and I was
crushing it.
I felt like and I was holding alot of power.
I realized that my style, myleadership style of including
(10:26):
everybody and not deal.
Not deal with the bullshit ofhierarchy or a caste system, but
like really engaging peopleequally and tapping into their
talents to do something biggerthan what they are doing day to
day.
And I loved that job.
And about two years in, withoutwarning, the CEO, carl Bass,
(10:51):
announces he's retiring, he'sstepping down, and then suddenly
it was like an earthquake inthe company and then there was
like a fight to see who wasgoing to be the CEO.
It was like Mad Max, and it wasbetween my boss, who was the
product guy, and another guywho's the business guy, the
business strategy guy, and I beton my guy, but the other guy
(11:16):
won.
You know, I didn't bet on thewrong horse, right, the wrong
horse won, won, yeah, and andthen all of these people who
were in that camp and I reallyactually liked the business guy,
we actually had a goodrelationship, so it wasn't
(11:37):
antagonistic at all, right, thepeople that were in his camp who
rose to power were not mysupporters, and and so when he
rose to power, he's like Maria,I see what you do, I appreciate
what you do, but you know what Idon't think design is that
(11:57):
important at this level.
Where do you go from there,right Like my.
Basically, your job, your joband your mission and your vision
is no longer wanted in thiscompany.
Wow, and I then, you know, gotpushed out.
I mean, I knew I was gettingpushed out, I wasn't as
surprised at that point and itcrushed me Absolutely.
(12:21):
It, you know, because my mantrawas you do the hard work you
have.
You know, I had stellar, youknow, feedback scores.
I got great.
You know I got raises.
I was making dense in theculture.
People loved me, but sometimesthat stuff doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
You know, and so the big lesson was a gift, and I
like to tell people this in yourdarkest time when you feel like
something bad happened to you,whether it was something that
you initiated, or had a misfire,or it wasn't within your
(13:07):
control.
You lose a job or somethingterrible happens and we start
beating ourselves up.
That's human to do, why it'sall our faults that we suddenly
this happened to us.
But guess what?
It's part of being human Right.
And you have to go through thegrieving process.
You do have to grieve this lossor this change that you
(13:31):
experience, but then, with grief, once you get past that grief,
there's this moment.
And was it built?
William Gibson has a book calledTransitions.
He calls it the neutral zone.
Okay, start to you settle fromthe grief and you have this
(13:52):
moment of insight.
The way I like to call it isyou're lying in a coffin above
ground waiting to be resurrected.
There's this moment ofreflection where you can kind of
like get out of the emotionalstate and go okay, where am I
now?
What did I learn?
Yeah, what is the learning here?
(14:13):
What is the insight?
And then you actually get theinsight which sparks new ideas
and puts you on a differenttrajectory.
Absolutely so.
That was the gift from losing myjob at Autodesk was
experiencing this thing thathappened to me where it never
happened to me before, I nevergot fired Right and what do I
(14:36):
want to make of it?
And that's what got me going onthe book Changemakers.
So the gift was a reflection ofwhat I did well and what I
didn't do well, and then, as adesigner treating everything
like a design problem, then wentand did my research and said,
(14:57):
oh, let me ask other people.
So then I got curious and Iasked, like over the pandemic, I
interviewed like over 40 peoplein different industries who
were in different positions, apower, and I asked them to tell
me their stories.
And that became the bookChangemakers.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
I love it.
Yes, definitely check it out,kaylee.
For our live listeners, she'lldrop the link to the book inside
the chat and we'll include itin the show notes.
I love hearing these stories.
I'm not a huge fan of successwithout strife.
I think that we all get therethrough the struggle.
That's part of kind of makingit.
It just doesn't happenovernight, it's over time and
(15:34):
it's through a lot of thingsthat sometimes we can't control.
And I think that's one thingyou mentioned, like how much of
that was really your fault?
None of it, zero.
You were doing your job.
You were doing a stellar job.
It was that there were certainthings that were out of your
control, that were changing, andit is a matter of sometimes
looking at things and saying isthis happening to me or is this
happening for me Because thebook wouldn't be here?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I don't think right, Would you agree?
No, I wouldn't have done thisbook.
I'd still be at all the desk.
And what are?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
you doing and what do you tell the folks that are
listening?
What are you doing next week?
You're like doing?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
a go ahead.
Oh, I'm doing a workshop forchange makers with my co-author,
Christopher Ireland, who is awoman, who was a woman CEO back
in the day.
So we've been collaborators andpartners for years on things
like this.
It's amazing, but I do want tosay that in any kind of change,
(16:28):
there is things that are withinyour control and things that are
not within your control.
So, that's where the learningcomes from.
So, while I was angry andshocked, I was like none of this
isn't my fault, but then I goOK, what would I have done
differently?
Maybe I wouldn't have ignoredthe people that were feeling
(16:50):
threatened by me Interesting thepeople in power.
You know like there were peoplewho were threatened by the fact
that I was becoming powerful.
Yep, right, and that happens incorporations, sometimes
Absolutely and actuallyunfortunately.
(17:10):
I'm going to say something thatis controversial to say.
When I look back at the peoplewho were the most threatened by
me coming up, it wasn't women,it was other women.
Yeah, and that is because Igrew up at a time that there
weren't things like this, right,I grew up at a time when there
(17:31):
were so few women in companiesthat if there was another woman,
you would have competition.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, compare and compete Absolutely.
I think we're conditioned to dothat because there's only so
much room at the top for women.
Even nowadays, maybe there's alittle more room, there's one or
two extra seats, but thenthere's still 51% of the
workforce are women and still24% of leadership roles are
women.
So it's like, yeah, there's onlyso much room and there's so
(17:58):
many of us, and so we need tostart to find ways to make more
room and not compete andcollaborate in order to achieve
that power.
So, yeah, 100%, I think that's.
I look forward to the day thatwe have equality and we don't
have to have things necessarilylike this in these conversations
so we can just focus on movingall of humanity forward.
(18:20):
But until then, I think it's avery fair statement and I think
it's very true.
Even still today, women feelingthreatened by other women, but
even just ambitious women ingeneral, right, it's just like
you're like the bull in theChina shop.
You're the one who asked thequestions, you're the one who
asks for the opportunity to growand raise and promote and all
(18:41):
of those things and, dependingupon the culture, yeah, that can
really put you in a precariousplace when it comes time for a
leadership change.
I'm not sure how much I wentinto it.
I haven't listened to the firstepisode of this podcast in a
while, but I'd mentioned earlierthat I kind of shared my story
as the very first episode of thePower Lounge and I went through
something relatively similar.
(19:02):
It wasn't as big as Autodesk,it was a much smaller,
independently owned and operatedcompany and I very much had my
sights on being an executivecreative director and through a
series of very unfortunateevents and a lot of trauma I
ended up also kind of making asemi amicable agreement to leave
because the CEO had kind ofjust all of a sudden left and
(19:24):
the whole world just fell apart.
But up to that point I was soblissful in that job, you know
it was exactly the role I hadbeen wanting and looking for.
And then I saw this changehappening.
And I'm not the kind that, likewhen I see a change coming, I
start to freak out and duck away.
I kind of get in it and I wantto like figure out how we can
make the most of the change asan opportunity.
(19:45):
But I think sometimes that ismet with some concern and or
animosity from others.
So that is a challenge, but youknow what that's the beauty of
working for yourself.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You don't have to worry about that anymore, but I
did want to go ahead.
There are always stakeholders,no matter what you do.
Exactly that's true.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Right, that's true.
That's a good point.
I know that the workshop youall are hosting is at Stanford
University as well, so you areall doing some really awesome
and amazing work with the bookand with the content and helping
shape tomorrow's leaders.
Let's dig into that a littlebit more, because you also work,
as you know.
You talked a lot about designand design problems and design
(20:27):
thinking, and you like to thinkof everything as a design
problem, so I would love for youto elaborate on that a little
bit more and how that mindsethas helped to influence your
approach in both leadership andproblem solving.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, it is.
Treating everything as a designproblem is a way in which you
can look at the world withcuriosity and creativity.
So, because you know, design isabout, you know, creating
making something new right, andmaybe something that is existing
(21:03):
or something that hasn'texisted before right.
And so this idea of creationgives you the permission to not
necessarily be the smartestperson in the room, you know and
and and gives you permission toput aside your own biases or
preconceived notions byexploring, by exploring the
problem based on what ispossible.
(21:25):
So every good design processstarts with discovery and asking
questions and looking at worldsdifferently and more broadly
and hopefully without bias.
And when you do that, then youcan look for patterns, and we,
through the lens of listening topeople, and you look for
(21:46):
patterns that bubble up andcreate a vision that came from
the very people that you areserving.
So it's like a, it's like aco-created vision, as then you
could implement right.
So so it gives me permissionfeeling good about not knowing
(22:09):
something.
Yes, if I, if I'm, if I don't,because my whole design career,
working with clients, hundredsof clients in different domains
and different competencies, Ihad to learn things you know so
I could be a good designer.
Like I remember in the 90searly days of web.
(22:30):
Like I had to learn about howserver farms work.
Sounds like fun.
You know what I like?
Geek out on that shit, right.
You know it's like you know,give me something like really
like hardcore that I will never,ever know about or care to know
about my life and pay me tolearn yes, right.
(22:53):
And so I think about like 20years of hot studio working with
such a wide range of clientsand so many domains gave me an
incredible view of the world andeducation that into spaces I
never would have gone withoutthat.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
That is such a great point.
I think that is a definitereason.
I feel like most of the womenwhen I think about together
digital.
They are lifelong learners.
They do love to dig into, evenoutside of industries of their
own.
But that's part of it.
Right, you have to understandthe core before you can really
start to solve the problem.
And I do think you know it doeswork so well.
That idea of active listeningand empathy, which you know, I
(23:32):
think are strong characteristicsof most women, do lend
themselves so well to influence,which then becomes leadership
but also helps with problemsolving.
So I 100% agree with you.
I think design thinking is asmart way to sort of begin to
objectively approach newproblems and situations and
really set yourself apart as aleader.
(23:53):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And it's like everything I do, you know, just
even have to be a gig, it's just, you know, I, just I lead with
imagination and data.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Keep the curiosity coming, let's talk a little bit
about failure.
Learning from failure is apowerful concept and I'm, like I
said earlier, a huge proponentof not promoting the idea of
success without strife ordispelling that notion.
Could you share a specificinstance where failure played a
crucial role in yourprofessional development, and
(24:30):
what lessons has it taught you?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Well, I mean, I think I just gave you like the major
failure story about Autodesk andthe gifts that came along with
that and that was, you know,like.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I think would you call that a failure.
I guess that's my pushback.
Would you say that that's afailure?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, I don't, I don't demonize the word failure
at all.
Yeah, I think I think you knowwe are humans and the failure is
a way of learning.
Now it sucks, it totally sucks,and it hurts, yeah, and it you
know, and it it fucks with yourhead, yeah, it's no fun to fail.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Nobody enjoys it.
It totally does.
Nobody loves failure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
But.
But it's the only way to kindof like learn and take stock of
what's there, and so you canhave a smart failure or you can
have a dumb failure.
Sure, right, yeah.
And.
And in design there aremultiple ways in which you can
fail early, fail smartly trythings out, prototype them and
(25:40):
see whether they work or not.
Right, there's like smartfailure.
And then there's dumb failure.
Where you like, step down theline and you broken somebody's
trust, right.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yes, right.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
And so there's a, there's a.
Amy Edmondson wrote a bookabout this and she talks about
sort of this failure spectrum,Okay, and that everybody fails.
So what are some of the where,what are some of the things that
you can do so you don't, youdon't create your like
irreparable harm?
(26:12):
you know, and so failure isreally part of it, and so, as a
leader, I really want to educatepeople that report to me that
don't be afraid to fail, and upto it, yes, and the best way you
can recover from failure isowning up to it and not trying
(26:36):
to hide it, right.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Absolutely Well, cause it, like you said,
especially when you've kind ofbroken someone's trust, which is
absolutely essential in therole of a leader, in my opinion.
Yeah, if you don't takeownership publicly and address
it, then how are you ever meantto mend that?
You know Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
And when you own up to the failure it takes, it
empowers you, yes, it doesn'tdeflate you, right.
Right, because you're nothiding behind something.
And that's one of those valuesthat I've kind of kept current
my whole life around Try to be,as always, try to be radically
(27:19):
honest about things, yeah, andnot to hurt people.
But to you know, I'm a terribleliar, right.
So it's so much better to behonest and get down, ripped, the
bandaid off, than it is hidebehind something that's going to
bite you in the ass later on.
And so you know, there's thisimprov, this is improv activity,
(27:46):
which is like the failureactivity.
I took an improv class.
I suck.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
But I hated it, but I did it and I failed it.
I failed it in prop andwhenever in improv, whenever you
fail, you're supposed to throwyour arms up and tell the group
and yell oh, that's so cool, Ifailed, yeah, and I actually
enjoyed that part of it and Iprobably grew up my arms a lot
in improv, but I love that, like, okay, release it.
(28:17):
And then.
So in the book we talk aboutfailure a lot and Justin McGuire
was the chief product officerat chief creative officer at
Salesforce.
He said you know, as a leader,you have to own the sword and
(28:38):
fall on it.
Yeah, On the sword you own yourmistakes and then you ask how
you can learn from them.
So if you own failure, like Ifailed, what can I learn from
this?
Right, so you're askingyourself or you're asking the
people that you, you know thatyou failed with Yep and that
(28:59):
that gives you your power back,when you can own your own
failure.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I agree.
I love that so much.
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(29:52):
I was really impressed.
Yesterday I was at an event andI heard Jeff Burding, who was
the co-CEO here in Cincinnatifor FC Cincinnati.
He talked about his leadershipstyle and how it was just growth
at any cost and go, go, go,constantly pushing.
He had a passion, he had avision and he was clearly just a
visionary and very much so.
(30:13):
He hired a bunch of people tobasically get the job done and
achieve the impossible, whichwas an established major league
soccer team here in the city ofCincinnati.
They got there and as soon asthey got there and he admitted
this in a room of over 100 womensaid as soon as we achieved
that and got the MLS deal, athird of our people quit.
(30:35):
I'm like wow, like to admitthat.
And he said you know, Irealized at that moment that my
leadership style was not goingto be the thing that continued
to make my vision that I had,you know, for the city and for
my children to come to life.
He said I had to really lookinside and do some inner work,
(30:57):
and so one to have a leader onthe stage saying that was
wonderful to have a white maleleader on stage.
I was like oh yeah, I might belooking at some FC since 90
season tickets, not that I don'tlove them already, but just the
willingness.
And I think if more leaders canmodel that behavior that you're
saying of owning that failureand making it something that is
(31:19):
allowable and that actuallyempowers us and grows us all,
versus holds us back andsomething worth hiding, modeling
that behavior and having thosekinds of conversations it's just
, it's only going to help us all.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So yeah, thank you.
I want to share a story, sothat kind of underscores this.
So you know again, like I toldyou, I was the overachiever and
I never failed big and thisAutodesk thing was like felt
like scarlet letter on my career.
Sure, Suddenly, everything thatI did up into this time didn't
(31:52):
count right.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
And I was right.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Marvel stories and I was.
I got laid off in like November, and then I was scheduled to do
a closing keynote for theinvisible conference in San
Francisco and the and in thattalk I was supposed to talk
about all of the accomplishmentsthat I had achieved as a VP of
(32:17):
design at a 33 year old techcompany.
Like I was going to tell thestory of how, how successful I
was.
And here I was laid off.
Nobody knew, nobody knew.
And and so I, you know, and I,you know, I spent the.
I spent the winter, you know,spent Christmas holidays like
(32:41):
sitting in a no sitting, staringat an ocean, reading, running
around books, running my soulRight, as a lot of women do.
And and then I was like, ok,how am I going to handle this?
And I was like you know what?
But radically honest, I'm justgoing to like come out and tell
people I'm fired.
I'm going to like, I'm going tolike with the world that this
(33:04):
overachiever, so brave that can,oh my God.
And and so I changed my entiretalk and I didn't tell them.
And I'm getting on the page andI'm talking about and I
summarized all of the greatthings that were happening at
Autodesk.
Yeah, and I tell the story ofhow Carl steps down and my boss
(33:29):
quits black screen Nobody, no,no leadership sponsor, no
champion.
Yeah, I got shown the door andthen I said and I, and then I, I
honestly expressed and said I'm.
These are all the emotions I'mfeeling right now and honestly,
don't know what I'm going to dowith the rest of my life as a 55
(33:50):
year old woman.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, wow.
What was the response like?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
And one of the that visible like audible gasps in
the room, right, I'm likeclosing keynote model of success
.
And here I am telling peoplethat I'm wounded and hurt and
angry and I don't know what I'mgoing to do.
And and I asked the question,how many people in this room
(34:19):
were left a job when it wasn'ttheir choice?
And I want to say like 75% ofthe people at hand, but it was
it that was there.
That was their invitation to,kind of like, speak their truth.
Yes, without chain, I love it.
And again, that's an example ofclaiming your power and
(34:43):
bringing it back.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Absolutely and now.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I no longer had a secret and now use that.
I could use that as a way oftelling people.
I have experienced this likeyou, and I see you and I feel,
but you're, you're going tofigure, you're going to figure
it out, right.
I love that need to be anexecutive coach, but that was
(35:09):
that moment where you just Ilove it.
That's your story.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Thank you so much for sharing that and you know, as
you're speaking, we summonBrunet Brown yet again on the
podcast.
Someday she'll be a guestsomeday.
Universe.
But yeah, I mean, how muchshame you owning your truth and
speaking your truth in a in aforum such as that.
How much unburdening does thatdo in the sense of?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
like relieving your shame.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
You know it's like when you think shame, I think,
oh, it was take a Brunet.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Right, it freed me and it also it, and then it also
gave me again.
The gift was now I can helpother people when they lose
their job.
Yes, oh yeah.
As a coach, I know what itfeels like.
I know stories they're tellingthemselves.
I know that it's going to taketime, like a lot of life
(36:00):
experience.
Yes, being I'm like going to be61 years old in February,
that's crazy.
You know and you know.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
I need your skincare regimen.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
In my late fifties, I was, like you know, really
worried about aging, especiallybeing in tech.
Yeah, then, when you hit yoursixties, like I did last year,
there's there is this weirdfemale power that comes back.
Oh, yeah, and it's just like Ihave lived a full life.
Yes, I know where the bodiesare buried.
(36:35):
You can no longer questionwhether or not I know what I'm
doing because I've lived it.
Yes, exactly, and that gives me.
That gives me so much energyand like there's so much power
and wisdom.
Yes, so much power, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
When you live.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
I live in the Bay Area, but I grew up in New York,
yeah, and.
But you know there's there areso many women in their sixties
that I look at now who are suchbad asses.
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Absolutely.
That is like prime time We'veactually had a conversation.
It might have been before.
We did this as a podcast.
It was still just a webinar.
We talked about menopause andwomen and their careers and how
really you know you're goingback to your pre-pubescent self
once you're post menopausal andall of those kind of effects of
(37:30):
your kind of cycle up and downleft and right and then every
which way that it goes duringmenopause.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
I know I'm pre-menopausal.
It's a load of fun.
I know it's going to be great.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
So much fun, but after that, yeah, you're, you're
like, it's like you're rebornand you have this new energy.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
And if you have children, you know they're.
They're usually grown in, outof the house If they hate to say
, if you've got elderly parents,they may be gone by then or in
somebody else's care, and sothere's this whole sense of
freedom and opportunity.
And then what sucks about itobviously is our society
penalizes you as a woman.
The older you get, right, yeah,you're not more experienced or
seasoned, but absolutely you are, and I love what you're saying
(38:07):
about and I think it's so true.
So many amazing books, podcasts, conversations like these
coaches, you know, talks havebeen born from the shit that you
go through.
So I agree with you so muchthat sometimes the the hard
parts of life that you are inrealize that once you get and if
you can't, you know, once youget and if you can get yourself
beyond and you will get yourselfbeyond that what you have now
(38:28):
is a whole new set of skillsthat you can share with others
to help them through thatprocess or maybe to even avoid
the process and the dealaltogether.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
And so many role models, whether you know them
personally or not, or out right.
So my co, my co-author,christopher Ireland, as I
mentioned, she's about 10 yearsolder than me and and she was a
CEO she was one of the few womenCEOs in tech yeah, wow, the few
(38:57):
women CEOs in tech back in theday.
So we were we always kind oflike bonded, like okay, like
what are you experiencing?
What kind of like, you know,prejudice or, you know, are you
experiencing as a woman leader?
And or how are you doing X, yand Z?
So we were always able to share, but I'm always looking at
(39:18):
where she is right now.
Yeah, you know, she's actuallydoing yoga while I'm, while I'm,
while I'm working.
She's doing, but I'm, I look ather and I'm watching her live
her life.
Yep, and it's just so inspiring.
Oh yeah, to have role models,and I always say look for great
(39:42):
role models, yes, and I'm somuch from them and it gives you
hope.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Yes, Absolutely.
This might explain why many ofmy closest friends are in their
fifties because I'm I'm 42.
Yeah, so it's one of thosethings I feel like I can always
look and sort of talk.
I have my peers also, which areobviously a great source of
power and support.
Yes, but those that are womenthat are just a little bit ahead
of you in life it is.
It's so great to be close tothem and understand and know the
(40:07):
intricacies of what's ahead foryou.
We did get a question from oneof our live listeners, from Anna
, so I wanted I want to makesure we ask it and then we'll
get on to the next few questions.
With such so much experience,how would a person know where to
direct their time in order torebuild themselves?
Or do you do everything and seewhat sticks?
Interesting question, Anna.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Question and I really appreciate the people who've
dialed in live, yeah, the mostimportant people in the room
right now, right.
So you know, that is like areally hard question to answer,
especially from somebody like mewho is interested in literally
(40:49):
everything, and it's really it'sa work in progress for me.
And as I get older, well, thisis just really interesting.
That's happening to me again,turning 60 and my mother just
died, and you know, like whenyou hit your 60s, people that
are people are close to youstart dying.
(41:09):
Yeah, and it is.
It is brutal, but there's.
So, again, there's a gift inthat.
Like, what's the gift ofwitnessing all these people in
your life who are starting toleave this, this earth, and be
in the spirit world?
Yeah, it gives me a Gave meperspective that you know I have
(41:30):
like maybe 20 good years left,you know, before my body just
starts giving up on me.
I might live longer, but youknow it's not gonna be like I'm
not gonna be able to gorollerblading down right, right,
so.
So that has given me newfoundPerspective for me to appreciate
(41:52):
.
Every day I wake up breathingand healthy mm-hmm and the and
to be in the present moment, notnecessarily the future, or or
try to relive the past and toask myself what's going to give
me joy today?
Mm-hmm, how can I make the mostof this day?
(42:14):
How can I miss the best dayever?
I love that and and and so I,you know, love that and I try to
live that life, to try to bepresent and appreciate every day
I'm breathing and I'm healthymm-hmm and I also am thinking
about Arm.
(42:34):
Am I making the right choices in?
Am I doing things that I wantto do, or am I doing things that
I think I should be doing?
Yes, in order to feed my ego,which we all have ego, yes, bad
things.
Just what's in our head, mm-hmm, or feet, or feed my like, my,
my, my professional story, myprofessional self and all these
(42:58):
things.
So I'm constantly checking withmyself.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I'm saying yes to this.
What am I saying no to?
Speaker 1 (43:06):
and am.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
I okay with that.
Yeah, so that's that's theadvice I would give, was it,
anna?
Uh-huh?
Yeah, anna, to make sure, likeif you're one of these people
who, like me, who is interestedin a million things, start
looking, taking stock and sayingis this what I really want to
(43:26):
do?
Is this what my heart isdriving?
Is this is?
Is this something that I, thatI truly want, that's gonna help
me grow, that's gonna give melife, energy, positive energy,
or is it a burden that I think Ihave to do because it's it's
gonna feed something else?
Speaker 1 (43:42):
right.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, make sure you're doing it for the right
reasons do it for the rightreasons and and recognize this
is so important is, if you'resaying yes, we're also saying no
to something else.
Such a good point, and you livewith that.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Mm-hmm and how often do we slow down and take the
time to really reflect on that?
I think we kind of just flythrough life we.
We live our lives by our to-dolist and we don't slow down to
really think about.
You know, what are the thingsthat make me feel fulfilled,
that make me feel inspired?
We do a goal getters Workshophere together, digital the start
of every year and kind ofcontinue it throughout the year,
(44:19):
and one of the things we do isan energy audit where you look
at your calendar and you market.
Red, yellow, green.
Red for the things that zap you.
Yellow for the things that arekind of okay, yeah, green for
the things that really energizedyou, because I don't think we
take that time to really noticewhen we're and how we tend to be
in our zone and feel our best,because that's also typically
when we perform our best, yeah.
(44:42):
So I think taking that time toreflect at any and all times is
such a good thing to do.
And I think one other thing Iwanted to share I love sharing
therapy Therapist hey, beverly,if you ever listened, she talks
about decision-making and Ithink this has been really
helpful for me.
So hopefully Anna will behelpful for you, because I see
the member and I do know Anna alittle bit Is that we all kind
(45:04):
of fall into this like a littleinverted triangle of
decision-making.
At the very top are theexplorers, people who love To
constantly be looking for andexploring ideas, and it can
almost feel overwhelmingsometimes because you see all
possibilities in all avenues butyou'll never make a decision
because it's all about theexploration.
At the very bottom of thattriangle are the researchers,
people who kind of focus andhone in on one possibility, one
(45:27):
Opportunity, and we'll justresearch it to death and it has
to be perfect before they'llmake a decision.
Yeah, if they make a decision,yeah, the folks that sit in
between which, apparently, iswhere I fall are the very
time-based decision-makers.
What's great is that they'llkind of tap into exploratory,
they'll kind of tap into theresearch, but they won't make a
decision until, like, their feetare held to the fire or it's
(45:50):
the exact right, opportune time.
It's, yeah, timing, andactually, less about is this the
better choice?
So, maybe, anna, spending alittle bit of time reflecting,
doing some of the things thatthe Maria advised, and then also
kind of exploring andUnderstanding what your
decision-making style is.
Make sure you just stop fallinginto any of those traps, don't
I?
Speaker 2 (46:07):
am.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Analysis, paralysis.
Gal will spend a lot of time inthat space, but I've tried to
lean into more of my time-baseddecision-making to really kind
of get myself past Passed that.
But thank you for the question.
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Two good tips.
You know and I do energy auditswith my clients all the- time.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Yeah, I love it.
Let's talk about that too,because you are an executive
coach and I scroll past myquestion.
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
What are some?
Speaker 1 (46:33):
patterns or struggles do you observe among leaders,
and how do you help guide themthrough some of those challenges
?
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, well, the, the I am an executive coach now.
Again a gift out of thatfailure.
Right, because, because,remember, when I stood on that
stage, I Didn't know what I wasdoing next, and when I got
through the grief and I was inthat neutral zone and I started
thinking about what's possible,I, I Started thinking about
(47:03):
reflecting on my life andlooking for, like, the through
line.
Yeah, what were the things, ifI look at my whole arc of my
career, where I get the most joy?
Yes, and it was lifting peopleup, working with people and
helping them be Better versionsof themselves, and that's that
was that insight that I neverwould have gotten to if I didn't
(47:26):
go through what I went through,to realize that this is what I
should be doing now and so.
So that's what I do and I workwith people and I like to tell
people that I'm really good athelping people quit their job.
I.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Feel like I might be okay that too yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Whether they know it or not, right, right, no, but
you know.
And so a lot of people come tome.
A lot of people are intransition.
Right, we all go throughtransitions and and you know
whether you're really young andyou're questioning whether you
want to stay in tech, whetheryou're older and you realize
(48:09):
maybe you don't want to bemanaging people anymore yeah,
these are people who you know.
Again, they're like this is mycareer, this is what I should be
doing.
Here's the ladder Mm-hmm.
And I remind people there's nosuch thing as a career ladder,
it's a career trampoline.
Oh, that's fun, I like yeah andRight, that's comes from rise of
(48:31):
the do and and so I really like, and so a lot of the Coaching
is really to help people tobuild self-awareness, mm-hmm, of
themselves.
Who are they when they are attheir best?
What do they like when they'reat their best, energetically, um
(48:51):
, behaviorally, what kind ofhabits do they have, what kind
of things do they do?
And how are they when they showup?
scared and Interesting what yeah, and and when they're.
You know when they're becausewe all have the reward response
and the threat response in ourmind.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
What does that tell them when you're asking them
about like what, what, what?
Speaker 2 (49:14):
the second part, the, the fear here because you have
to know, because when you're up,when you're threatened mm-hmm,
or when others are threatenedMm-hmm, how is?
How is that different than whenyou're at your best?
What?
What behaviors do you have down?
You fight, flight or freeze,yeah, yeah, okay, and Do you?
(49:38):
Does your body change?
You get tightening in the chest, mm-hmm.
And how does that energy impactthe other people in the room?
Speaker 1 (49:47):
100% because?
Speaker 2 (49:48):
because Emotions are contagious.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
Yes, that was an empath, I agree, but yeah,
that's great.
So how you show?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
up really matters, mm-hmm.
And then, are you living yourlife more in fear, or are you
living your life in Likecuriosity and creativity?
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Oh that question about to undo some people.
I.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Help people like understand who they are and why
they get when they get triggered, and yeah and also, you know,
helping them step into thethings that they want to do.
But are afraid to do.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, that's so great.
I Want to make sure I ask thistoo, because we haven't dropped
it in the chat yet.
But if folks are interested inyour executive coaching services
, where should they go?
Speaker 2 (50:37):
They could.
You can go to hot studiocom.
That's my website.
It's really old.
Don't judge me, because I don'treally enjoy doing.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
We got some people that can help you with that.
Maria, amazing ladies that canhelp you with that.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Yeah, yeah, or you can contact me on LinkedIn, okay
.
All of those are Ways in whichI can.
You can reach me, okay.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Awesome.
I'm trying to think we've gotjust a few minutes left and I
want to leave a second forquestions, If anyone in our live
listening audience has them aswell.
So I'm trying to decide of mylast few questions.
Which one I want to ask youbecause I could just keep you
here the rest of the day.
But you've got some stuff toget to.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Let's nobody's knocking on my door kicking me
out of my head.
That's good.
So we're good, we're good.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Actually, let me do this.
I'm gonna kind of cheat code itright as we're as we're waiting
it to see if there's any otherquestions from our audience is
We've talked about a lot ofeverything from design thinking
to to leadership, to change, tobeing a woman in tech.
What, if?
Is there anything that youdon't feel like we've maybe said
or covered, or what would besort of your Last piece of
(51:48):
advice for our listeners to kindof take away from today's
conversation?
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Oh, like I said, I am so Happy the universe made me a
woman.
Yeah, I think as women, we haveso much power 100% and and
which is why Certain gendersmight want to try to hold us
back, because they're afraid ofthe power and I feel bad,
(52:12):
because I do love men, I loveyou, but I'm talking to my
ladies and I really do believethat we are we are still always
have to work twice as hard toget what we need to get.
That is the reality that I grewup with and it's it's,
unfortunately, still the samecase today.
There are more women inleadership positions, which is
(52:35):
really encouraging, yeah, but itis a.
I always say the best measure ofsuccess is progress.
As long as we keep makingprogress, there will be setbacks
, and we have seen some of thesesetbacks recently in politics
for women and women's health.
Yeah, and it sucks, but thatjust means we have to be more
(52:59):
resilient and stronger and wenevertheless will persist.
Yes, and we keep pushingforward 100%.
And you know, I am just.
I love being a woman, I lovebeing a woman role model.
Yep, and I want to see more andmore women step up to the plate
and show their power, becausethey have it in spades.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
Right and I think we have 100% agree, and as soon as,
the sooner we can all start torealize that the better the
whole entire world is going tobe right Exactly.
I think that's the differenceof.
You know people talk a lotabout power from versus power to
.
I think women tend to kind oflead because we're more
community minded, where we'rereared that way, we're wired
that way to give more power to.
So when we receive power, wegive power in return, which is
(53:42):
exactly the point of thispodcast and our together digital
community, which is why I wasso excited to connect with you
and have the opportunity tobring you on to the podcast.
I think definitely everyonewho's listening.
If you want to hear more fromMaria, follow her on LinkedIn.
Check out hot studios website,get the book.
Change makers of the rise ofthe DEO.
(54:02):
We do have two questions.
One that's directed at you,maria, so I'm going to go ahead
and answer that and then, if wehave a minute, I'll come back to
the one that was actuallydirected at me.
Okay, let's see, as a woman intech, what advice would you give
to a younger woman who may needhelp in the future or as they
bring you back to the world?
And what advice would you giveto a young woman who may need
help in the future or?
Speaker 2 (54:23):
as they begin their professional career.
You have a long way ahead ofyou, right?
So, and and really just don'tget scared.
If there's things you don'tknow, you are young and you're
not supposed to know, becauseyou have to go through the life
experience.
Find, when you're young andyou're starting out, there are
(54:50):
so many great women or other, oreven men, met male mentor, who
are more than willing to helpyou.
So you got to seek them out andfind them, and and that, and
they will be guideposts for youas you kind of grow and learn
how you build your story in tech.
(55:13):
And you know it can be.
Tech is not, cannot could be afriendly environment, but more
often than not it's not veryfriendly.
And I don't know.
You know it depends on yourdiscipline.
You know, if you are designing,your closer to people, if
(55:34):
you're an engineering, you'recloser to the pixels.
Just make sure you find thehumanity in what you're doing
and people that you're workingwith.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
I love that.
I love that.
That's such great advice.
I think I read a stat somewherethat like 30% of women who
started tech leave it before theage of 30.
But that number changesdrastically when you surround
yourself with peers and mentorsand champions and sponsors,
people who will speak your namein the rooms that you're not in,
will give you the opportunitiesand the projects that maybe
(56:05):
others think you're not quoteunquote ready for yet.
Because it is.
It's a long and bumpy road andI think the best way to do that
is not to go it alone, right,Not to make you feel like you've
got to figure it all out foryourself and you know, again,
put perfection aside, have thatlearners mindset and you'll be
okay.
All right, we've got like aminute.
I will try to answer thisquestion for you, for our other
(56:27):
listener.
It says can you share moreabout the decision making
process you mentioned earlier tohelp with analysis paralysis?
I don't know.
I'll have to look around andsee if there's actually any sort
of.
I'm sure there's research andpapers out on this, because she
kind of just explained the sortof inverted triangle and the
decision making sort ofunderstanding.
What is your decision makingstyle?
There might even be quizzesonline.
(56:47):
I'll do a little research afterthis and and get back to you
while we can maybe include it inthe show notes of you know just
understanding what is yourdecision making style so that
you can see the traps right, youcan see the mind traps, you can
see the gaps in which maybe youmight be getting stuck.
So you know that might be evenunderstanding why you struggle
to make a decision.
(57:07):
Is it because you're exploringconstantly and you're not coming
into it?
Is it because you're waitingfor the exact right time, or is
it because you are just too busyfocused on one potential
possibility?
So those are kind of the threeways you can kind of think about
how you typically makeespecially big decisions and
where you fall, and then sort offrom there begin to sort of
(57:30):
understand how to get yourselfunstuck.
But yeah, I will do some, I'lldo some research in that
analysis.
Paralysis I think we hit anerve there.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
And I talk.
We talk about decision makingin our book.
Change method Perfect, thereyou go.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Answers are in the book.
That's right, fantastic.
Well, this was so wonderful,maria.
Thank you again.
I hope we get to hang out soon.
Speaker 2 (57:52):
I know we're not in the same country.
Speaker 1 (57:53):
but you know what, at some point it's bound to happen
.
I feel it, yeah that's right.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
I mean, I I like to say yes when people invite me to
come out and, do you know,talks about my book.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
So any of you out there want to go to Ohio.
Speaker 2 (58:08):
Yes, community people who willing to pay for my
travel.
We got it.
Speaker 1 (58:12):
We're going to work on it in the middle of the
winter, right?
Yeah, no, we wouldn't do thatto you.
We wouldn't do that to you.
All right, wonderful, well,thank you again.
So much Save travels.
Good luck at your workshop nextweek, and thank you all for
joining us and listening.
This has been wonderful.
We will see you all next week.
Take care and bye, bye.
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