February 14, 2022 • 27 mins
On this episode of Top5, Cory Kazar and Mike Simon of DefinedLogic, a digital product agency, join Tara Thurber to discuss their tips for a thriving business.
Mike Simon's roots stem from Old Dominion and his degree in Computer Science/Engineering. With extensive experience as a leader in digital innovation, Mike guides the day-to-day operations at DefinedLogic. He is currently pursuing a Micro Masters in Digital Product Innovation and is the Partner/Lead Consultant at Gerent, LLC, a leading Salesforce consulting & Implementation partner.
Cory Kazar hails from the halls of Syracuse where he earned his MBA. As the Business Development Partner at DefinedLogic he continuously explores innovative aspects of business, technology and finance. Cory occupies active seats on the Monmouth University Alumni Board of Directors and the Seton Hall Business School Board for Customer Experience.
Together, Mike and Cory share a passion for the industry, motivation to push DefinedLogic to new heights and a willingness to learn and grow alongside fellow employees.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tara Thurber (00:07):
Hey guys, welcome back to Top5 brought to you by
to DefinedTalent. We are aresults driven service working
with clients to connect themwith quality talent as well as
working to make an impact withinthe recruiting industry. We talk
straight about today'sprofessional world with real
world professionals, experts inrecruitment, job seekers and
business owners alike. Have aquestion for us. Send it in and
(00:30):
you might spur our nextconversation. I'm Tara Thurber,
Director of Talent Innovation.
And joining me today to discusstheir Top5 Tips for Thriving
Business is to DefinedLogicsPartner, Mike Simon, and
Business Development Partner,Cory Kazar. Hey, guys, how are
you today?
Mike Simon (00:49):
Hey, Tara, great.
How are you?
Tara Thurber (00:51):
Good. Thank you.
Thanks for joining.
Mike Simon (00:53):
Right. My pleasure.
Thanks for inviting us.
Cory Kazar (00:56):
Yes, excited to be here.
Tara Thurber (00:58):
Awesome. So guys, let's just kick this off. Why
don't we dive in and give us alittle background on yourselves
in your personal history withDefinedLogic?
Mike Simon (01:09):
Yeah, I'm happy to go first. So Mike Simon partner
here at DefinedLogic I've beenwith DefinedLogic for nine
years, almost nine years now.
Ultimately, culminating in beinga partner, one of the owners of
DefinedLogic. And I started nineyears ago, after being a CIO for
a large logistics company andever after having worked for IBM
(01:31):
for many years, really lookingto get back to core consulting,
meaning, doing great work forclients, being very close to the
value proposition for clients.
And consulting at that time isreally, you know, it's a great
way to be able to do that. Sowhen I joined DefinedLogic, that
(01:52):
was my my mission to you know,sort of start a principle
consulting practice, which wedid for still do today, frankly.
But that's a little bit of myhistory with DefinedLogic.
Cory Kazar (02:05):
Yeah, I've actually actually been in DefinedLogic
going on 10 years, a little bitmore senior than Mike in that
regards. A lot less senior whenit comes to age, but who's
counting?
Mike Simon (02:18):
Is this a comedy show?
Cory Kazar (02:23):
Actually, prior to DefinedLogic, I was working at a
Fintech startup in New York hadan opportunity that came along,
living in New Jersey at thetime, of a small consulting IT
consulting firm at that time,looking to, to add to their
sales team came on board,thought it was a great
opportunity to stop commuting toNew York, and I ended up falling
(02:44):
in love with the company andeverything about it. And here I
am a decade later, newleadership through through Mike
Simon and loving every minute ofit.
Tara Thurber (02:53):
Awesome, so great to hear just a little bit of
that background. And now for thetwo of you, what did you see and
DefinedLogic that really madeyou both want to transition the
company from the traditionalconsulting firm that started to
DefinedLogic into a digitalproduct agency?
Mike Simon (03:14):
I guess for me, it was a couple things. And it
sounds a little cliche, but youknow, the first thing is, is the
people you know, what Iwitnessed during my time as a
consultant is that we worked ona variety of projects. But no
matter what we worked on, thedelivery quality was first rate.
(03:35):
Absolutely amazing, you know,satisfied customers satisfied
employees. Phenomenally goodquality work. But what we also
noticed is that, you know, theworld the world was changing.
And we saw more and morecustomers shifting towards more
and more platform centricsolutions, whether that's CRM
(03:55):
through Salesforce and aHubSpot, for example, and
service related things that wenow see around that, whether
it's marketing, automationplatforms, development
platforms, we saw less and less,you know, sort of custom
development work being done onpremise versus solution based,
platform based solutions, Ishould say, where they're
(04:17):
leaning into the investment thatsomeone else has made in those
platforms for speed to marketfor maintainability for op-x
versus cap-x, and so forth. Sorecognizing that trend, we said
to ourselves, hey, we need tolean into it, right? We need to
sort of follow where we're whereour clients are going. But in
(04:38):
studying what it would be what'snecessary for us from a services
perspective, to ensure ourclients can be successful with
with what they're looking to do,that really sort of started our
pivot as a relates to what we doas DefinedLogic today. So you
know, pre packaged services, ifyou will privatize services, if
(04:59):
you, but all in line with what'snecessary for clients to be
successful with the platformimplementations that they're
looking to do. And with theinitiatives around those, like
marketing strategies, and salesstrategies, and so forth.
Cory Kazar (05:15):
A lot of it comes down to passion to at the end of
the day, I think our pivot to adigital product agency allowed
our people to be more passionateabout what they're delivering,
because of the ownership of theproduct, from beginning to end
and seeing it fully throughwhere you don't necessarily
always see that from theconsulting side, as you're
putting the pieces of a projectthat's owned by an organization
and managed by an organization,we're now we're being brought in
(05:37):
as a true partner to workalongside these organizations to
make sure that we areimplementing and developing and
creating a product that makessense for them in their company.
Tara Thurber (05:46):
I love that. And I like the I like where you were
exploring the ownership and thencoming in as as being more of a
fully rounded partnershipalmost.
Mike Simon (06:00):
Yeah.
Tara Thurber (06:01):
You know, for for our listeners out there. Can
either of you define what adigital product agency is?
Mike Simon (06:09):
Yeah, we, we recognized in working with our
clients, but there are lots ofdifferent types of agencies out
there. They're brand agencies,marketing agencies, advertising
agencies, media agencies, etc.
talent agencies, evenoftentimes, what we'll see is a
given client is using multipleagencies at the same time, for
(06:31):
a, you know, an integratedpurpose. But what they see is
that those agencies are notintegrated. They're separate
companies that have separateobjectives, trying to glue all
that together, comes with itsown challenges, dissatisfied
clients as a result. And so whatwe concluded is that, you know,
(06:52):
a, we wanted to not compete withothers who are not really our
competitors, right? And whatdoes that mean? And then also,
you know, sort of carve out aname for ourselves or category
for ourselves, I should say,that we can, that we could we
could own. So digital productagency product is at the center
of that, meaning theengineering, the implementation,
(07:14):
the technical smarts aroundthat, the investment results,
the returns around that. And sowhile we do everything that I
mentioned, we do brand, we domarketing, we do sales, we do
advertising, we do creative, wedo analytics, we do all of those
things that multiple agencieswould otherwise do. But we do so
in the context of the core thingthat our clients are looking to,
(07:37):
to implement, which is a digitalproduct, to help them engage
with customers, with partnerswith employees, to drive
measurable results in themarketplace, etc. So that's what
makes us a digital productagency. That's what makes us
unique from what we hear fromour clients and our partners.
There's nobody else out therethat thinks like you guys do
(07:58):
that talks like you guys do,that has the breadth of
capability that you guys have toreally be, you know, it's
cliche, but really be sort of aone stop shop for everything
that they need to do in themeasurable success of their
digital initiatives.
Tara Thurber (08:17):
That kind of goes into my next question of how
does DefinedLogic stand out inthe crowd? All these added?
Certainly not, I guess wewouldn't call them added
services. But it's that one stopshop, including talent services
in there to, you know, asleaders, what is the market,
like, out there forDefinedLogic? And how are we
(08:40):
standing out? I mean, if we're,if DefinedLogic is really its
own place. Are we standing outdifferently in the market today?
Or is it really the soul? Let'sstart I'm looking for the soul
landing for DefinedLogic. Andthen we get to kind of keep
(09:02):
exploring that.
Mike Simon (09:03):
Yeah, I mean, we are we are we're, we're finding that
we're differentiated withouttrying to be differentiated.
Tara Thurber (09:10):
Yeah.
Mike Simon (09:11):
You know, so for example, when we engage with
clients, or with our partners,Salesforce, HubSpot, and so
forth, how it is that weinitially engage with them and
with our clients, is alreadydifferentiated for them. And we
hear that we hear that from themall the time. So for example, we
start with an experiencediscovery workshop. And it's
(09:35):
kind of our crutch, if you will,for learning about in a visual
way in a collaborative way. Whatit is that the clients trying to
achieve, will facilitate inthese days, a digital blank
canvas, a blank whiteboard,relative to experience and what
it is that the client is tryingto accomplish from an experience
standpoint and just, you know,kind of always centering
(09:57):
ourselves back on thatparticular objective in that
position. In the language, soexperience every touchpoint your
client is going to go through.
How's that touch point beingdelivered today in the future?
How do we measure the value ofthat touch point? How do we
assess the your current abilityto deliver on that touch point,
you know, your, your, yourcurrent mechanisms versus your
aspirational mechanisms. Andwhen we do that, it naturally
(10:21):
brings forward the brand,content, and creative and
engineering and analytics oneverything necessary to deliver
on that experience roadmap, ifyou will. And by virtue of that,
we're already touching on whatall you know, what multiple
agencies would otherwise betouching upon. But in a way
that's different in a way that'sintegrated around the customer.
(10:44):
And, again, that sounds clichein and of itself, as well. But
when we, when we focus solely onwhat it is that you're trying to
achieve for your customers andtheir experience today and
future, then, you know, I wouldsay the rest of it sort of takes
care of itself, as it relates tothe clients conclusion, but I
can do all of this with onepartner, I don't need to have
(11:04):
five different partners to makethat happen.
Cory Kazar (11:07):
And we're uniquely positioned from a size and
capability standpoint to stillbe boutique from a relationship
standpoint, but enterprise froma delivery standpoint, working
with enterprise clients acrossthe board, from some of the
largest pharmaceutical companiesand fortune 500 to startups, but
we can still bring thatboutique, I know you, you know
me, we know your businessapproach to every one of our
(11:31):
clients, because that is whatwe're rooted in. That's our
foundation from, from ourconsulting days, brought over to
our digital product agency days,and really help you, as we like
to say define what the possibleis, we like to define the
possible and work together toreally become part of your brand
part of your team, and make surethat their that results in
(11:51):
success and really being able tobe there from a name basis
throughout the whole process.
Mike Simon (11:57):
Yeah.
Tara Thurber (11:58):
I also one thing that kind of struck me too is
having this, this landing forDefinedLogic, it's also so much
is is just as important ashaving the right team players in
on this as well, to be able toplay with everybody in the in on
(12:18):
the playground, so to speak, butalso and grow together to be
successful for each client. Ithink that that transition, you
know, instead of it being justthe one offs, being able to
transition and having that teamas a whole at DefinedLogic is
super important. Would you guyssay, you know, in talking about
(12:42):
the transition into a digitalproduct agency using air quotes
there, but the team being in theforefront and being on the same
page and working with clients?
Do you feel that clients aremore appreciative and will stop
working with other partners, andreally be able to hone in on
(13:03):
just working with DefinedLogic?
Do you? Do you feel that clientsare okay with that? Or do do
they struggle with letting thatgo?
Cory Kazar (13:13):
I do feel like it's there. But we have to gain that
that trust and prove it throughour work. And at the same time,
you know, I'm not necessarilysaying that we want to always
get rid of other partners,obviously, it's great for
business one way so far. But um,being able to work seamlessly
with other partners is what'spart of being successful,
whether it's channel partner,whether it's, you know,
(13:35):
underlying technology, whetherit's a, an agency that
specializes in one specific areathat might have more specialty
in that area than DefinedLogicdoes, but being able to work
seamlessly and integrated withthat team together. Is is, is I
think, what brings ultimatesuccess for the client. And at
the end of the day, that's whatwe care about. I think that's
one of the differentiators thatit's so cliche and and so I'm
(14:02):
trying to find the word, butit's almost like lovey, if you
will, something that you wouldsee in a Hallmark card. But um,
you know, one thing I noticedthroughout my course of working
with the DefinedLogic is that wecare, our employees care, our
company cares, you know, we'renot the biggest company in the
world. We don't have a massivearray of clients, you know,
(14:24):
underneath our portfolio. But wecare about each and every one of
our clients. And I think thatthat care, from the leadership
from the folks that are workingon the accounts, from the
project managers, to the UXteam, to the developers, to the
creative, to analytics toeverybody that's involved and
the relationship that's built onthat and caring about the
(14:45):
success of our clients, not justtheir company, but the people
that are working for the companyfor their career is what really
makes us unique compared to alot of organizations that I've
either worked with in the pastor have worked alongside of and
I love that I absolutely loveabout us.
Tara Thurber (15:01):
I think it's a huge a huge value. And it's also
being able to, you know, onething that I noticed to
DefinedLogic is you're open toother partnerships. And and it's
expanding, it's about playingwith everybody that has that
same vision and coming togetherto lift everybody up together as
(15:21):
a whole as a group unify.
Mike Simon (15:24):
Yeah, I would just add to that, we have certain
ways of working that are proven,we have a point of view that we
call the digital universe. Andit shows how it is and why it is
that brand connects with contentconnects with creative connects
with UX connects with clients,analytics, and so forth. And we
(15:47):
have processes that we ourselvesgo through, you know, when we're
performing all of those roles,and how all of those things
integrate together, again, inthe context of something that's
meaningful to a client. And ifyou're in a marketing campaign,
for example, a marketingcalendar, for example. So while
we're totally open to workingwith other agencies that fill
(16:09):
one of those planets in theuniverse, if you will, we also
suggest that it needs to be donein a way where we collectively
are integrated on behalf of theclient. And that always works
out, you know, I can't think ofan instance where someone has
said, No, you know, we want themto work their way and you work
your way and so forth, whichwould raise all kinds of red
flags for us. But, you know, tothe extent that we can all sort
(16:31):
of work in an integrated processin a form, then, you know, it
tends to tends to work outreally well.
Tara Thurber (16:41):
Love it. And I know, too, we're celebrating
DefinedLogic celebrating 20years, this year, and, you know,
huge changes and to go and shiftover the past couple years to
where you're at today. You know,what kind of kind of tips with
(17:03):
within this would you give toothers for the shift and the
transition, and really thisgrowth that's happening now
celebrating 20 years atDefinedLogic?
Mike Simon (17:14):
Yeah, I mean, I would say that, you know, we're
learning every day, that'sprobably a good thing, right? I
mean, being open to learn everyday. And as a function of
listening to your customers,understanding where they're
going, monitoring industries,understanding where they're
going, and so forth. But beyondthat, I think just having
(17:34):
strategic clarity, and again, wechallenge ourselves all the time
around us, but, but havingstrategic clarity of who you are
in the marketplace, what youstand for, what you offer, why
it's valuable to a client, howyou constitute that, from a
services standpoint, how you candescribe it in an elevator pitch
(17:56):
to clients, but also toemployees. The last thing you
want is to have clarity in themarketplace. But you know,
nobody inside your ownorganization really understands
what you do for a living. Sothat level of clarity is is just
super, super important. Becauseit drives everything, it drives
your go to market messaging, itdrives your segmentation, it
(18:17):
drives your marketing approachthat drives your value prop
description, from a salesstandpoint, etc, etc. But it
also, you know, ideally allowsyou to bring in the work that
you want, but avoid the work youdon't want. That's one of the
biggest issues that I would sayyoung entrepreneurs or startup
companies face is losingstrategic clarity and taking on
(18:41):
work for the purposes of, hey,we need revenue, we need cash
flow, and so forth. But allowingthat to take you out of your
lane and take you down a road,that's not your road. And
ultimately getting you to apoint where you lose control
your ability to you know, findyour lane in the marketplace and
to you know, develop the leversfor yourself of growth, to be
(19:05):
able to, you know, do whatyou're trying to do, if that
makes sense.
Tara Thurber (19:09):
Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And I think
too, I like the I like the whereyou're going with being able to
stay in your lane, you know,talking to a lot of other
entrepreneurs, they they'repulling work just to get work
and spinning their wheels, andthen they're losing what that
focus really is right. So Idefinitely agree that it's it's
(19:32):
having that focus, it's havingthat strategy in place and
continuing to grow, but alsofailing along the way and
learning from those failurestoo.
Mike Simon (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
I mean, if you have, if you haveyour strategy aligned front to
back.
Tara Thurber (19:48):
Yeah.
Mike Simon (19:48):
And it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy in
terms of delivering the kind ofwork that you want, and help you
fend off the kind of work thatyou don't want and I don't mean
that in a negative way. But youknow, when you take on a promise
object that doesn't line up witheverything that the organization
is designed to, to, to cater fortrained to cater for you, you've
(20:09):
just introduced so much frictioninto your machine that you may
not recognize until you get to apoint where people aren't happy,
you're delivering bad quality,customers are churning on you,
and so forth. And then lookingback, you can understand why
it's happening. But, you know, Iwould say that's one of the most
important things we can do.
Tara Thurber (20:28):
That's awesome.
Cory, do you have any top fivetips you'd like to share as
well?
Cory Kazar (20:33):
I do. I jotted them down prior to this. Have them
prepared.
Tara Thurber (20:38):
Alright.
Cory Kazar (20:39):
I think, you know, for me from a top five, from a
business standpoint to besuccessful is and in no
particular order, butcommunication with both clients
and internally. You know, Ithink one of the things that
Mike did when he, when he tookthe company over in 2020, was
really extended communication.
And I think he's been extremelysuccessful in the last few
years, especially witheverything that's been going on,
(21:00):
you know, with COVID. And thecraziness that we've all lived
in and are not even hybrid, butfully remote approach that we've
had to take that, you know, aseverybody else, we expect it to
be two weeks, and now it's goingon two and a half, three years.
But I think it's key, I thinkcommunication is key
accountability, again,internally and externally, for
your roles, and for what you'reresponsible for, is just, you
(21:24):
know, having thataccountability, knowing what
you're responsible for, knowingwhat you're prideful for having
pride in your company, beinganother pillar of my top 10
pride in the work that you'redoing pride for the company that
you're working with, you know,that all correlates to
marketing, which is pillarnumber four, being able to
explain who you are, what youdo, why you do it, and being
(21:46):
able to explain that to youremployees as well as to your
customers, you could do this ina million different ways. And it
could be in large scales,approaches that cost millions
and millions and millions tomarket to, or it could be in
just a small who are we approachand really define what are what
we are and what is our what isour core passions and, and
competencies throughout thecompany. But being able to
(22:09):
define that in a way thateverybody resonates with is, is
key. And then my last one, whichreally isn't a great one, but
I've been on a Yellowstone kickthe last two or three weeks. And
if you if you do watch the show,you know Beth says this usually
after every time she finishes acocktail, if you're going to do
something, do it right. And thenshe has three or four more. But
(22:30):
I think that's a great quote.
And I think it I think it justcorrelates with so much not only
in business, but in life, ifyou're going to be spending that
much of your time doingsomething, take the time to do
it. Right. I mean, you don'tneed to juggle a million things
if you can do 2345 things,right?
Tara Thurber (22:47):
Yeah.
Cory Kazar (22:47):
It's so much better than being able to do a million
things or 100 things. Half,right, well, you know, for the
PG version of the podcast, butthose would be you know,
communication, accountability,marketing pride. And, you know,
aligning to accountability is ifyou're going to do something,
make sure you're doing it,right.
Tara Thurber (23:06):
I love it. I love all the tips that you guys are
sharing today. And I think it'simportant for our listeners to
hear this. I mean, 20 years is along time. So and here's to 20
more years for DefinedLogic. Youknow, and it's it's thriving,
it's changing, it's moving. Andand it's really awesome to be a
part of as well. So thank you,guys.
Mike Simon (23:29):
Thank you. Can I just add one more thing?
Tara Thurber (23:31):
Absolutely.
Mike Simon (23:32):
So talent, we think about DefinedTalent, right? But
talent, my number 1,2,3,4, andfive are take care of your
people. If you take care of yourpeople, they'll take care of you
and your clients, you beingDefinedLogic, the company.
Tara Thurber (23:47):
Yeah.
Mike Simon (23:48):
And it sounds easy.
It sounds simple. But when youdon't do that, then as your
number 1,2,3,4, or five guidingprinciple, then what you'll see,
you know, as a trailingindicator is maybe unhappy
employees, maybe not the bestquality work that you'd like to
have turnover of employees andclients. I'm very happy to say
that DefinedLogic has virtuallyzero turnover.
Tara Thurber (24:12):
Yep.
Mike Simon (24:13):
Zero. I mean,
Tara Thurber (24:14):
It's amazing.
Mike Simon (24:15):
It's amazing. You know, 20 years, we have employee
number one still works for thecompany. And you know, so I
mean, to have nearly zeroturnover says an awful lot about
a company that that really takescare of its people first and
foremost. And when they do that,they'll take care of a
community, they'll take care ofclients, and then all of the
(24:37):
other bad things that wouldotherwise be happening to you in
terms of churn and cost and soforth. You don't have to deal
with that. So it's it's maybeoverly simplistic, but you know,
I think that's one thing we'vedone really, really well at
DefinedLogic, the founders, youknow, lead with that sort of,
basic pillar of the culture andwe've we've perpetuated that
(25:00):
maybe in taking the next step toCory's point, but that would be
my number 1,2,3,4, and 5 tip.
Tara Thurber (25:06):
I love it. And you can you can see it too when you
speak to employees that toDefinedLogic or when you see
what they're doing. I mean,they're excited to share things
on social media they're talkingabout, it's not just a job that
they're coming, they're goingto, which I think is important
for all professionals. It's nota job, it's a career. It's this
lifestyle that we're in and evenshifting to being fully remote.
(25:31):
That's a huge, that's a hugeshift for an entire company to
do, and everybody to besuccessful at home, but also in
a collaborative group. And I cansee how that shift has been
successful for DefinedLogic. Soit's, um, it starts at the top
and it interweaves through itall.
Mike Simon (25:52):
Yeah, yeah. I totally agree. I mean, it's when
we pivoted to home, our culturekicked in. And it had us have
empathy and compassion for everysingle individual, as
individuals recognizing thatwhat each of us was going
through was different. And olderpeople empty nesters like me,
(26:15):
for example, very different thanpeople with young families and
kids at home now, beinghomeschooled and parents trading
off and you know, what do weneed to do to take care of
people first?
Tara Thurber (26:26):
Yeah.
Mike Simon (26:26):
If we do that everything else takes care of
itself. And it did it did inspades. So, you know, I think
that's just that's good advicefor any any company that's
starting up or any company atany stage and, you know, their
their journey.
Tara Thurber (26:39):
Yeah. All around.
I love the tips. I loveeverything that you guys have
brought to the table today.
Really appreciate you guysjoining and I'm looking forward
to some 20 year celebrations,but to what the future holds.
It's very exciting.
Mike Simon (26:56):
Thank you, Tara.
Tara Thurber (26:58):
Thank you, Mike and Cory, for joining me today.
Cory Kazar (27:01):
Thanks for having us.
Tara Thurber (27:03):
We are DefinedTalent coming to you at
Top5. Make it a great day.
Hey guys, welcome back to Top5 brought to you by
to DefinedTalent. We are aresults driven service working
with clients to connect themwith quality talent as well as
working to make an impact withinthe recruiting industry. We talk
straight about today'sprofessional world with real
world professionals, experts inrecruitment, job seekers and
business owners alike. Have aquestion for us. Send it in and
(00:30):
you might spur our nextconversation. I'm Tara Thurber,
Director of Talent Innovation.
And joining me today to discusstheir Top5 Tips for Thriving
Business is to DefinedLogicsPartner, Mike Simon, and
Business Development Partner,Cory Kazar. Hey, guys, how are
you today?
Mike Simon (00:49):
Hey, Tara, great.
How are you?
Tara Thurber (00:51):
Good. Thank you.
Thanks for joining.
Mike Simon (00:53):
Right. My pleasure.
Thanks for inviting us.
Cory Kazar (00:56):
Yes, excited to be here.
Tara Thurber (00:58):
Awesome. So guys, let's just kick this off. Why
don't we dive in and give us alittle background on yourselves
in your personal history withDefinedLogic?
Mike Simon (01:09):
Yeah, I'm happy to go first. So Mike Simon partner
here at DefinedLogic I've beenwith DefinedLogic for nine
years, almost nine years now.
Ultimately, culminating in beinga partner, one of the owners of
DefinedLogic. And I started nineyears ago, after being a CIO for
a large logistics company andever after having worked for IBM
(01:31):
for many years, really lookingto get back to core consulting,
meaning, doing great work forclients, being very close to the
value proposition for clients.
And consulting at that time isreally, you know, it's a great
way to be able to do that. Sowhen I joined DefinedLogic, that
(01:52):
was my my mission to you know,sort of start a principle
consulting practice, which wedid for still do today, frankly.
But that's a little bit of myhistory with DefinedLogic.
Cory Kazar (02:05):
Yeah, I've actually actually been in DefinedLogic
going on 10 years, a little bitmore senior than Mike in that
regards. A lot less senior whenit comes to age, but who's
counting?
Mike Simon (02:18):
Is this a comedy show?
Cory Kazar (02:23):
Actually, prior to DefinedLogic, I was working at a
Fintech startup in New York hadan opportunity that came along,
living in New Jersey at thetime, of a small consulting IT
consulting firm at that time,looking to, to add to their
sales team came on board,thought it was a great
opportunity to stop commuting toNew York, and I ended up falling
(02:44):
in love with the company andeverything about it. And here I
am a decade later, newleadership through through Mike
Simon and loving every minute ofit.
Tara Thurber (02:53):
Awesome, so great to hear just a little bit of
that background. And now for thetwo of you, what did you see and
DefinedLogic that really madeyou both want to transition the
company from the traditionalconsulting firm that started to
DefinedLogic into a digitalproduct agency?
Mike Simon (03:14):
I guess for me, it was a couple things. And it
sounds a little cliche, but youknow, the first thing is, is the
people you know, what Iwitnessed during my time as a
consultant is that we worked ona variety of projects. But no
matter what we worked on, thedelivery quality was first rate.
(03:35):
Absolutely amazing, you know,satisfied customers satisfied
employees. Phenomenally goodquality work. But what we also
noticed is that, you know, theworld the world was changing.
And we saw more and morecustomers shifting towards more
and more platform centricsolutions, whether that's CRM
(03:55):
through Salesforce and aHubSpot, for example, and
service related things that wenow see around that, whether
it's marketing, automationplatforms, development
platforms, we saw less and less,you know, sort of custom
development work being done onpremise versus solution based,
platform based solutions, Ishould say, where they're
(04:17):
leaning into the investment thatsomeone else has made in those
platforms for speed to marketfor maintainability for op-x
versus cap-x, and so forth. Sorecognizing that trend, we said
to ourselves, hey, we need tolean into it, right? We need to
sort of follow where we're whereour clients are going. But in
(04:38):
studying what it would be what'snecessary for us from a services
perspective, to ensure ourclients can be successful with
with what they're looking to do,that really sort of started our
pivot as a relates to what we doas DefinedLogic today. So you
know, pre packaged services, ifyou will privatize services, if
(04:59):
you, but all in line with what'snecessary for clients to be
successful with the platformimplementations that they're
looking to do. And with theinitiatives around those, like
marketing strategies, and salesstrategies, and so forth.
Cory Kazar (05:15):
A lot of it comes down to passion to at the end of
the day, I think our pivot to adigital product agency allowed
our people to be more passionateabout what they're delivering,
because of the ownership of theproduct, from beginning to end
and seeing it fully throughwhere you don't necessarily
always see that from theconsulting side, as you're
putting the pieces of a projectthat's owned by an organization
and managed by an organization,we're now we're being brought in
(05:37):
as a true partner to workalongside these organizations to
make sure that we areimplementing and developing and
creating a product that makessense for them in their company.
Tara Thurber (05:46):
I love that. And I like the I like where you were
exploring the ownership and thencoming in as as being more of a
fully rounded partnershipalmost.
Mike Simon (06:00):
Yeah.
Tara Thurber (06:01):
You know, for for our listeners out there. Can
either of you define what adigital product agency is?
Mike Simon (06:09):
Yeah, we, we recognized in working with our
clients, but there are lots ofdifferent types of agencies out
there. They're brand agencies,marketing agencies, advertising
agencies, media agencies, etc.
talent agencies, evenoftentimes, what we'll see is a
given client is using multipleagencies at the same time, for
(06:31):
a, you know, an integratedpurpose. But what they see is
that those agencies are notintegrated. They're separate
companies that have separateobjectives, trying to glue all
that together, comes with itsown challenges, dissatisfied
clients as a result. And so whatwe concluded is that, you know,
(06:52):
a, we wanted to not compete withothers who are not really our
competitors, right? And whatdoes that mean? And then also,
you know, sort of carve out aname for ourselves or category
for ourselves, I should say,that we can, that we could we
could own. So digital productagency product is at the center
of that, meaning theengineering, the implementation,
(07:14):
the technical smarts aroundthat, the investment results,
the returns around that. And sowhile we do everything that I
mentioned, we do brand, we domarketing, we do sales, we do
advertising, we do creative, wedo analytics, we do all of those
things that multiple agencieswould otherwise do. But we do so
in the context of the core thingthat our clients are looking to,
(07:37):
to implement, which is a digitalproduct, to help them engage
with customers, with partnerswith employees, to drive
measurable results in themarketplace, etc. So that's what
makes us a digital productagency. That's what makes us
unique from what we hear fromour clients and our partners.
There's nobody else out therethat thinks like you guys do
(07:58):
that talks like you guys do,that has the breadth of
capability that you guys have toreally be, you know, it's
cliche, but really be sort of aone stop shop for everything
that they need to do in themeasurable success of their
digital initiatives.
Tara Thurber (08:17):
That kind of goes into my next question of how
does DefinedLogic stand out inthe crowd? All these added?
Certainly not, I guess wewouldn't call them added
services. But it's that one stopshop, including talent services
in there to, you know, asleaders, what is the market,
like, out there forDefinedLogic? And how are we
(08:40):
standing out? I mean, if we're,if DefinedLogic is really its
own place. Are we standing outdifferently in the market today?
Or is it really the soul? Let'sstart I'm looking for the soul
landing for DefinedLogic. Andthen we get to kind of keep
(09:02):
exploring that.
Mike Simon (09:03):
Yeah, I mean, we are we are we're, we're finding that
we're differentiated withouttrying to be differentiated.
Tara Thurber (09:10):
Yeah.
Mike Simon (09:11):
You know, so for example, when we engage with
clients, or with our partners,Salesforce, HubSpot, and so
forth, how it is that weinitially engage with them and
with our clients, is alreadydifferentiated for them. And we
hear that we hear that from themall the time. So for example, we
start with an experiencediscovery workshop. And it's
(09:35):
kind of our crutch, if you will,for learning about in a visual
way in a collaborative way. Whatit is that the clients trying to
achieve, will facilitate inthese days, a digital blank
canvas, a blank whiteboard,relative to experience and what
it is that the client is tryingto accomplish from an experience
standpoint and just, you know,kind of always centering
(09:57):
ourselves back on thatparticular objective in that
position. In the language, soexperience every touchpoint your
client is going to go through.
How's that touch point beingdelivered today in the future?
How do we measure the value ofthat touch point? How do we
assess the your current abilityto deliver on that touch point,
you know, your, your, yourcurrent mechanisms versus your
aspirational mechanisms. Andwhen we do that, it naturally
(10:21):
brings forward the brand,content, and creative and
engineering and analytics oneverything necessary to deliver
on that experience roadmap, ifyou will. And by virtue of that,
we're already touching on whatall you know, what multiple
agencies would otherwise betouching upon. But in a way
that's different in a way that'sintegrated around the customer.
(10:44):
And, again, that sounds clichein and of itself, as well. But
when we, when we focus solely onwhat it is that you're trying to
achieve for your customers andtheir experience today and
future, then, you know, I wouldsay the rest of it sort of takes
care of itself, as it relates tothe clients conclusion, but I
can do all of this with onepartner, I don't need to have
(11:04):
five different partners to makethat happen.
Cory Kazar (11:07):
And we're uniquely positioned from a size and
capability standpoint to stillbe boutique from a relationship
standpoint, but enterprise froma delivery standpoint, working
with enterprise clients acrossthe board, from some of the
largest pharmaceutical companiesand fortune 500 to startups, but
we can still bring thatboutique, I know you, you know
me, we know your businessapproach to every one of our
(11:31):
clients, because that is whatwe're rooted in. That's our
foundation from, from ourconsulting days, brought over to
our digital product agency days,and really help you, as we like
to say define what the possibleis, we like to define the
possible and work together toreally become part of your brand
part of your team, and make surethat their that results in
(11:51):
success and really being able tobe there from a name basis
throughout the whole process.
Mike Simon (11:57):
Yeah.
Tara Thurber (11:58):
I also one thing that kind of struck me too is
having this, this landing forDefinedLogic, it's also so much
is is just as important ashaving the right team players in
on this as well, to be able toplay with everybody in the in on
(12:18):
the playground, so to speak, butalso and grow together to be
successful for each client. Ithink that that transition, you
know, instead of it being justthe one offs, being able to
transition and having that teamas a whole at DefinedLogic is
super important. Would you guyssay, you know, in talking about
(12:42):
the transition into a digitalproduct agency using air quotes
there, but the team being in theforefront and being on the same
page and working with clients?
Do you feel that clients aremore appreciative and will stop
working with other partners, andreally be able to hone in on
(13:03):
just working with DefinedLogic?
Do you? Do you feel that clientsare okay with that? Or do do
they struggle with letting thatgo?
Cory Kazar (13:13):
I do feel like it's there. But we have to gain that
that trust and prove it throughour work. And at the same time,
you know, I'm not necessarilysaying that we want to always
get rid of other partners,obviously, it's great for
business one way so far. But um,being able to work seamlessly
with other partners is what'spart of being successful,
whether it's channel partner,whether it's, you know,
(13:35):
underlying technology, whetherit's a, an agency that
specializes in one specific areathat might have more specialty
in that area than DefinedLogicdoes, but being able to work
seamlessly and integrated withthat team together. Is is, is I
think, what brings ultimatesuccess for the client. And at
the end of the day, that's whatwe care about. I think that's
one of the differentiators thatit's so cliche and and so I'm
(14:02):
trying to find the word, butit's almost like lovey, if you
will, something that you wouldsee in a Hallmark card. But um,
you know, one thing I noticedthroughout my course of working
with the DefinedLogic is that wecare, our employees care, our
company cares, you know, we'renot the biggest company in the
world. We don't have a massivearray of clients, you know,
(14:24):
underneath our portfolio. But wecare about each and every one of
our clients. And I think thatthat care, from the leadership
from the folks that are workingon the accounts, from the
project managers, to the UXteam, to the developers, to the
creative, to analytics toeverybody that's involved and
the relationship that's built onthat and caring about the
(14:45):
success of our clients, not justtheir company, but the people
that are working for the companyfor their career is what really
makes us unique compared to alot of organizations that I've
either worked with in the pastor have worked alongside of and
I love that I absolutely loveabout us.
Tara Thurber (15:01):
I think it's a huge a huge value. And it's also
being able to, you know, onething that I noticed to
DefinedLogic is you're open toother partnerships. And and it's
expanding, it's about playingwith everybody that has that
same vision and coming togetherto lift everybody up together as
(15:21):
a whole as a group unify.
Mike Simon (15:24):
Yeah, I would just add to that, we have certain
ways of working that are proven,we have a point of view that we
call the digital universe. Andit shows how it is and why it is
that brand connects with contentconnects with creative connects
with UX connects with clients,analytics, and so forth. And we
(15:47):
have processes that we ourselvesgo through, you know, when we're
performing all of those roles,and how all of those things
integrate together, again, inthe context of something that's
meaningful to a client. And ifyou're in a marketing campaign,
for example, a marketingcalendar, for example. So while
we're totally open to workingwith other agencies that fill
(16:09):
one of those planets in theuniverse, if you will, we also
suggest that it needs to be donein a way where we collectively
are integrated on behalf of theclient. And that always works
out, you know, I can't think ofan instance where someone has
said, No, you know, we want themto work their way and you work
your way and so forth, whichwould raise all kinds of red
flags for us. But, you know, tothe extent that we can all sort
(16:31):
of work in an integrated processin a form, then, you know, it
tends to tends to work outreally well.
Tara Thurber (16:41):
Love it. And I know, too, we're celebrating
DefinedLogic celebrating 20years, this year, and, you know,
huge changes and to go and shiftover the past couple years to
where you're at today. You know,what kind of kind of tips with
(17:03):
within this would you give toothers for the shift and the
transition, and really thisgrowth that's happening now
celebrating 20 years atDefinedLogic?
Mike Simon (17:14):
Yeah, I mean, I would say that, you know, we're
learning every day, that'sprobably a good thing, right? I
mean, being open to learn everyday. And as a function of
listening to your customers,understanding where they're
going, monitoring industries,understanding where they're
going, and so forth. But beyondthat, I think just having
(17:34):
strategic clarity, and again, wechallenge ourselves all the time
around us, but, but havingstrategic clarity of who you are
in the marketplace, what youstand for, what you offer, why
it's valuable to a client, howyou constitute that, from a
services standpoint, how you candescribe it in an elevator pitch
(17:56):
to clients, but also toemployees. The last thing you
want is to have clarity in themarketplace. But you know,
nobody inside your ownorganization really understands
what you do for a living. Sothat level of clarity is is just
super, super important. Becauseit drives everything, it drives
your go to market messaging, itdrives your segmentation, it
(18:17):
drives your marketing approachthat drives your value prop
description, from a salesstandpoint, etc, etc. But it
also, you know, ideally allowsyou to bring in the work that
you want, but avoid the work youdon't want. That's one of the
biggest issues that I would sayyoung entrepreneurs or startup
companies face is losingstrategic clarity and taking on
(18:41):
work for the purposes of, hey,we need revenue, we need cash
flow, and so forth. But allowingthat to take you out of your
lane and take you down a road,that's not your road. And
ultimately getting you to apoint where you lose control
your ability to you know, findyour lane in the marketplace and
to you know, develop the leversfor yourself of growth, to be
(19:05):
able to, you know, do whatyou're trying to do, if that
makes sense.
Tara Thurber (19:09):
Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And I think
too, I like the I like the whereyou're going with being able to
stay in your lane, you know,talking to a lot of other
entrepreneurs, they they'repulling work just to get work
and spinning their wheels, andthen they're losing what that
focus really is right. So Idefinitely agree that it's it's
(19:32):
having that focus, it's havingthat strategy in place and
continuing to grow, but alsofailing along the way and
learning from those failurestoo.
Mike Simon (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
I mean, if you have, if you haveyour strategy aligned front to
back.
Tara Thurber (19:48):
Yeah.
Mike Simon (19:48):
And it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy in
terms of delivering the kind ofwork that you want, and help you
fend off the kind of work thatyou don't want and I don't mean
that in a negative way. But youknow, when you take on a promise
object that doesn't line up witheverything that the organization
is designed to, to, to cater fortrained to cater for you, you've
(20:09):
just introduced so much frictioninto your machine that you may
not recognize until you get to apoint where people aren't happy,
you're delivering bad quality,customers are churning on you,
and so forth. And then lookingback, you can understand why
it's happening. But, you know, Iwould say that's one of the most
important things we can do.
Tara Thurber (20:28):
That's awesome.
Cory, do you have any top fivetips you'd like to share as
well?
Cory Kazar (20:33):
I do. I jotted them down prior to this. Have them
prepared.
Tara Thurber (20:38):
Alright.
Cory Kazar (20:39):
I think, you know, for me from a top five, from a
business standpoint to besuccessful is and in no
particular order, butcommunication with both clients
and internally. You know, Ithink one of the things that
Mike did when he, when he tookthe company over in 2020, was
really extended communication.
And I think he's been extremelysuccessful in the last few
years, especially witheverything that's been going on,
(21:00):
you know, with COVID. And thecraziness that we've all lived
in and are not even hybrid, butfully remote approach that we've
had to take that, you know, aseverybody else, we expect it to
be two weeks, and now it's goingon two and a half, three years.
But I think it's key, I thinkcommunication is key
accountability, again,internally and externally, for
your roles, and for what you'reresponsible for, is just, you
(21:24):
know, having thataccountability, knowing what
you're responsible for, knowingwhat you're prideful for having
pride in your company, beinganother pillar of my top 10
pride in the work that you'redoing pride for the company that
you're working with, you know,that all correlates to
marketing, which is pillarnumber four, being able to
explain who you are, what youdo, why you do it, and being
(21:46):
able to explain that to youremployees as well as to your
customers, you could do this ina million different ways. And it
could be in large scales,approaches that cost millions
and millions and millions tomarket to, or it could be in
just a small who are we approachand really define what are what
we are and what is our what isour core passions and, and
competencies throughout thecompany. But being able to
(22:09):
define that in a way thateverybody resonates with is, is
key. And then my last one, whichreally isn't a great one, but
I've been on a Yellowstone kickthe last two or three weeks. And
if you if you do watch the show,you know Beth says this usually
after every time she finishes acocktail, if you're going to do
something, do it right. And thenshe has three or four more. But
(22:30):
I think that's a great quote.
And I think it I think it justcorrelates with so much not only
in business, but in life, ifyou're going to be spending that
much of your time doingsomething, take the time to do
it. Right. I mean, you don'tneed to juggle a million things
if you can do 2345 things,right?
Tara Thurber (22:47):
Yeah.
Cory Kazar (22:47):
It's so much better than being able to do a million
things or 100 things. Half,right, well, you know, for the
PG version of the podcast, butthose would be you know,
communication, accountability,marketing pride. And, you know,
aligning to accountability is ifyou're going to do something,
make sure you're doing it,right.
Tara Thurber (23:06):
I love it. I love all the tips that you guys are
sharing today. And I think it'simportant for our listeners to
hear this. I mean, 20 years is along time. So and here's to 20
more years for DefinedLogic. Youknow, and it's it's thriving,
it's changing, it's moving. Andand it's really awesome to be a
part of as well. So thank you,guys.
Mike Simon (23:29):
Thank you. Can I just add one more thing?
Tara Thurber (23:31):
Absolutely.
Mike Simon (23:32):
So talent, we think about DefinedTalent, right? But
talent, my number 1,2,3,4, andfive are take care of your
people. If you take care of yourpeople, they'll take care of you
and your clients, you beingDefinedLogic, the company.
Tara Thurber (23:47):
Yeah.
Mike Simon (23:48):
And it sounds easy.
It sounds simple. But when youdon't do that, then as your
number 1,2,3,4, or five guidingprinciple, then what you'll see,
you know, as a trailingindicator is maybe unhappy
employees, maybe not the bestquality work that you'd like to
have turnover of employees andclients. I'm very happy to say
that DefinedLogic has virtuallyzero turnover.
Tara Thurber (24:12):
Yep.
Mike Simon (24:13):
Zero. I mean,
Tara Thurber (24:14):
It's amazing.
Mike Simon (24:15):
It's amazing. You know, 20 years, we have employee
number one still works for thecompany. And you know, so I
mean, to have nearly zeroturnover says an awful lot about
a company that that really takescare of its people first and
foremost. And when they do that,they'll take care of a
community, they'll take care ofclients, and then all of the
(24:37):
other bad things that wouldotherwise be happening to you in
terms of churn and cost and soforth. You don't have to deal
with that. So it's it's maybeoverly simplistic, but you know,
I think that's one thing we'vedone really, really well at
DefinedLogic, the founders, youknow, lead with that sort of,
basic pillar of the culture andwe've we've perpetuated that
(25:00):
maybe in taking the next step toCory's point, but that would be
my number 1,2,3,4, and 5 tip.
Tara Thurber (25:06):
I love it. And you can you can see it too when you
speak to employees that toDefinedLogic or when you see
what they're doing. I mean,they're excited to share things
on social media they're talkingabout, it's not just a job that
they're coming, they're goingto, which I think is important
for all professionals. It's nota job, it's a career. It's this
lifestyle that we're in and evenshifting to being fully remote.
(25:31):
That's a huge, that's a hugeshift for an entire company to
do, and everybody to besuccessful at home, but also in
a collaborative group. And I cansee how that shift has been
successful for DefinedLogic. Soit's, um, it starts at the top
and it interweaves through itall.
Mike Simon (25:52):
Yeah, yeah. I totally agree. I mean, it's when
we pivoted to home, our culturekicked in. And it had us have
empathy and compassion for everysingle individual, as
individuals recognizing thatwhat each of us was going
through was different. And olderpeople empty nesters like me,
(26:15):
for example, very different thanpeople with young families and
kids at home now, beinghomeschooled and parents trading
off and you know, what do weneed to do to take care of
people first?
Tara Thurber (26:26):
Yeah.
Mike Simon (26:26):
If we do that everything else takes care of
itself. And it did it did inspades. So, you know, I think
that's just that's good advicefor any any company that's
starting up or any company atany stage and, you know, their
their journey.
Tara Thurber (26:39):
Yeah. All around.
I love the tips. I loveeverything that you guys have
brought to the table today.
Really appreciate you guysjoining and I'm looking forward
to some 20 year celebrations,but to what the future holds.
It's very exciting.
Mike Simon (26:56):
Thank you, Tara.
Tara Thurber (26:58):
Thank you, Mike and Cory, for joining me today.
Cory Kazar (27:01):
Thanks for having us.
Tara Thurber (27:03):
We are DefinedTalent coming to you at
Top5. Make it a great day.
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