January 28, 2025 • 39 mins
Navigating Wills, Probates, Trusts, and Guardianships with Mariah McKinney
In this episode, Christa and new Host, Marlon Weems, interview Mariah McKinney, a lawyer and partner at Garlock & McKinney. They explore crucial yet often overlooked legal matters including wills, probates, trusts, and guardianships. Mariah shares the complexities of probate administration, the importance of comprehensive estate planning, and the risks of not having a financial or healthcare power of attorney.
Mariah also shares her journey from Western to Eastern North Carolina and her deep connection to Topsail Island.
www.garlockandmckinney.com
Message Mariah
Phone: (828) 357-4510
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Co-Hosts: Marlon Weems and Christa Schroeder
Edited by Jim Mendes-Pouget | jimpouget@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Topsail Insider,where you can hear all about the
businesses and events in thebeautiful coastal towns in the
greater Topsail area of NorthCarolina.
Coming up, today we'reinterviewing Mariah McKinney.
A lawyer and partner at GarlockMcKinney.
We'll discuss wills, probates,trusts, guardianships.
(00:25):
All things we should be thinkingabout now but tend to put off
until it's too late.
Are you prepared?
Do you think you might beprepared but don't know for
sure?
Are you currently caught up in aprobate situation that has you
losing sleep at night?
If so, stay tuned for this andmore.
(00:45):
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(01:07):
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(01:27):
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(01:52):
Hello everyone.
My name is Krista and I am yourco host today and I'd like to
introduce Mr.
Marlon Weems, a new TopsailInsider co host who has his own
podcast experience, is anincredible writer.
He has an extensive financialand entrepreneurial background,
which we will one day berecording Marlon so that people
can really get a feel for you.
(02:13):
Thanks for the, theintroduction, Krista.
I am really excited to be on theteam.
Awesome.
Our guest today is MariahMcKinney.
Mariah is a lawyer and a partnerat Garlock and McKinney.
So welcome Mariah and thanks forjoining us.
Thanks for having me.
before we dive in, I think it'dbe good if you gave us sort of a
(02:34):
quick overview of the legalservices that you provide and
then after that maybe we can getinto the details of, you know,
why these are so important in,in our next segment.
Yeah, sure.
Just for a brief summary.
we do probate administration,estate administration is another
way to describe it,guardianships.
(02:56):
A lot of times that's involvingadults who lack, mental
capacity.
They can't really make decisionsfor themselves.
So they need the court toappoint someone to do that for
them.
A lot of things involving trustsand wills and proceedings before
the court.
So there's, a lot of people arefamiliar with.
(03:17):
a civil action or a trafficcourt, but there's a lot of
things that go on in front ofthe clerk of court that involves
estates and guardianships andprobate.
And so I do, I handle thoseproceedings.
Now, I know from our previousconversations, you know, just in
terms of your location, you'reofficially in Topsail, on
(03:38):
Topsail Island, or in theTopsail area now.
But before that, you also had along history here.
Maybe you can tell us a littlebit about, you know, your
transition, I guess, fromWestern North Carolina to, to
Eastern and, and how that allcame about.
Yeah.
So I'm a North Carolina girlthrough and through.
I was born in the Sandhills inLee County.
(04:00):
And, my dad remarried and helived in Wake County.
So, I graduated from high schoolin Wake County.
And then, because I love thebeach so much, I went to UNCW
because I just had to be asclose to the ocean as I could
possibly be.
And that's because mygrandparents had worked really
(04:20):
hard to work their way toTopsail Island.
So, they ended up living in SurfCity for over 30 years until
they both passed away there.
And so growing up, from the timeI was a small child, I just
spent as much time as I possiblycould with them there on the
island.
If they went fishing, I wentfishing.
they were fishermen, not forincome per se, but they did eat
(04:45):
what they killed.
And we loved fishing together.
They would spend like, you know,nights, midnight, 3 a.
m., 5 a.
m., whatever the, the catch wasgoing to be and the time that
you needed to fish on the pier,they were out on the pier.
So they were as much, yeah, asmuch as they could.
They worked so that they couldthen have time to fish.
(05:07):
Like, so they worked to likebasically feed their fishing
habit.
Topswell Island was a hugefishing town for the longest
time and just that, that's whatyou came to Surf City for was
to, to fish off that pier and,and off the surf as well.
Yeah, that's what they loved andthat's what they were here for.
Do you remember some of like theolder stores that are no longer
(05:28):
here?
Yes, and they had so many jobs.
I don't even know like how theyworked all the jobs that they
worked So they ran the EastCoast discount store, which is
now the East Coast sportinggoods right there underneath the
high rise bridge They helped runthe Barnacle Bills Pier in
(05:48):
different aspects of thatbusiness.
There was a motel near BarnacleBills Pier before Fran destroyed
both Barnacle Bills and themotel.
They actually ran the motel andflipped over, like cleaned and
turned over all of the stays andthey had a little.
It was crazy because it was likeup on the second floor of that
(06:09):
motel.
It's like a two story motel andthey like built a home residence
out like on top of the secondstory of that and they had this
panoramic view of the ocean.
They were literally just stepsfrom the ocean and they had this
Huge glass window and everymorning we would just pull back
the big drapes and then theocean was just right there So
(06:31):
gorgeous.
Yeah, it was it was awesome.
They my grandmother also workedat the IGA And they worked at
Seaview Pier.
I mean they worked everywhere.
They were just Literally, it waslike their heart and soul, you
know, the island was just a partof them I know you're, you met
your husband and he's from theother side of the state and you
(06:51):
referred to him as a mountainman.
Yep, yep.
So it's interesting to me, I'dreally like to know how you
convinced your mountain man tobecome a beach mom.
So UNCW doesn't have a lawschool.
There's no law schools here onthe East Coast, so I had to go
back to the Raleigh area Andthen I graduated from law school
and was working in Raleigh withthe judicial branch.
(07:15):
One of my jobs was, I wasassistant legal counsel and I
actually advised the clerks ofcourt.
I wrote training procedures forthem.
I helped them make decisions.
And now that's the practice areathat I do.
So I know it really well fromthat.
So he is in the financialdepartment.
through that same governmentalentity, and he just happened to
(07:37):
live at the mountains, eventhough I was a beach girl.
So that is how much, I loved himthat I went to the mountains to
be with him.
And so now it's kind of like myturn.
He had sons and they were veryyoung and they needed to
graduate from high school andhave the opportunities in their
hometown that they could haveto, you know, grow up and
graduate and go into the world.
And now that they are older, youknow, they're over 20 and
(08:00):
they're in the world, we can nowcome here to the beach and, and,
and do that part.
Yeah.
Reciprocate.
That's right.
That's right.
Now you've got family herestill.
I do.
And what's, what's crazy aboutit is when I was in Raleigh, it
was sort of like my mom andsister moved here.
As a precursor, because theywere like, well, we're all going
to eventually be here at thebeach.
(08:21):
And then I moved all the wayacross the state to the
mountains.
So I, I disrupted the plan.
Well, my husband disrupted theplan, right?
It's his fault.
Put it on him.
But yeah, so my sister and mybrother in law, they live in
Sneeds Ferry.
And my mom lives in SneadsFerry.
And then my husband and I, wealso have a small rental condo
(08:41):
in North Topsville.
So we get to stay there on theoff season.
We rent it on the on season.
And a lot of people might knowmy brother in law.
his name is Scott, but he'sknown, as Scotty Strings.
Oh, I know.
This is so crazy because as wetalked about, my wife, for a
couple of years was the, barmanager at the Quartermoon.
(09:02):
And so part of her,responsibilities was arranging
all of the musicalentertainment.
So when you said, you know, mybrother in law is kind of well
known.
I was like, I, I'm sure I knowthis guy and, and I see him all
the time.
Oh my gosh.
He's so good.
And, His, his Johnny Cash is, islike primo.
(09:23):
Yes.
We have a lot of fun togethersinging and playing music.
And so yeah, I love being here,you know, with my family.
We spend a lot of time together.
Just from, you know, I guessgoing back to your, your area of
expertise and, you know, whetherit's personal or business
related, what would you say hasbeen your, your biggest
challenge moving, you know, fromthe West over to the coast?
(09:48):
I mean, and I guess maybe bothpersonally and, and business
wise.
Yeah.
I think the biggest challengewas that, you know, sometimes in
life you just have wantedsomething or it's been your
dream and you know you want itnow.
And we have had to do this in aperiod of time.
We've had to work towards it.
(10:09):
So I've actually been coming towork remotely here for long
periods of time since 2015.
So I would come for two weeksand then I would try it for a
month and then I'd say, oh, thisis, this could work.
Two months and thankfully my lawpartner is so great.
We complement each other so welland from the beginning of us
(10:29):
coming together there I said,now listen, I'm on a five year
plan and in five years I'm, I'mgoing to the, I'm going to the
beach.
When these kids graduate fromhigh school, it didn't happen
exactly in five years, but Istarted working towards that.
And so I would say that'sprobably been the most
challenging thing is figuringout how to do it slowly.
(10:50):
And you know, a lot of peoplejust move and they're just there
now.
And we haven't done that, thatway.
But it's also been cool becauseit's given us this transition
period of time where, you know,a lot of times if you just quit,
you know, you quit what you'redoing and you move, you have
that period of grief.
A lot of people say after aboutsix months, you kind of grieve
the loss of where you left.
(11:11):
And so we're not really going tohave that so much as we've kind
of worked towards it.
You kind of segwayed into it.
Yeah, so the challenge hasworked out.
Not quite as painful.
But you had to exercise yourpatience.
It sounds like your patience.
And basically packing up, youknow, if you go, I go back to
the mountains sometimes for twoweeks or three weeks, depending
(11:31):
on what's happening and you're,you have to pack up everything
you're going to need.
So you're almost like movingthree times a year, which is.
Crazy.
That's challenging.
It's building lots of character.
That's a good positive spin onit.
That's right.
(11:52):
So why don't we talk and maybedig in a little bit to, into
your primary areas of business.
And as I understand it, You,you've got four sort of buckets
of business, wills, probates,trusts, and guardianship.
So why don't you tell us alittle bit about each one of
those and what, struggles or howhard or easy each one, is, or
(12:14):
maybe even talk about howimportant it is to sort of
prepare for those things soonerrather than later.
Yeah.
probate and guardianship.
are the things that once you getinto that place, you're, you're
before the court.
So you're at the default level.
So it's a, it's kind of likealmost like you failed to plan
(12:36):
to avoid someone else makingdecisions for you.
So when you get into probate andguardianship, you're talking
about super costly.
You know, contested estates, youcan see multiple attorneys
coming in, representing multiplepeople, and you can see hundreds
of thousands of dollars in legalfees.
Sometimes that couldn't beavoided, but sometimes it could
(13:00):
have been avoided if theintentions were made known and
if the estate plan was writtenin such a way that it worked the
way that the person intended.
And so a lot of the things canbe avoided.
A lot of those costs can beavoided.
I think a lot of people,including myself, we haven't
come up against those issues yetin our life.
I'm fortunate enough to haveboth of my parents, as is my
(13:22):
husband.
So we don't really understand.
We know that everyone needs awill, but I don't understand
probate.
I don't understand trusts andguardianship as well.
So can you kind of explain thatto the people who Really just
think we need to write somethinglike, I leave this to this
person and we think we're donewhen we're really not.
(13:43):
Yeah, that does kind of go intoa real technical area.
I can just say to you the mostsimple way to describe probate
is that it's the process ofcollecting everything that's
owed to a person, finally, afterthey pass.
Paying off all the debts andfinalizing their final tax
(14:03):
returns.
And yes, people think that youdon't have to file tax returns
once you die, but, you know,someone else has to actually
file that one for you, so taxesdo survive you.
And then, the probate is thatprocess where whatever's left
over after you settle all thosethings, you then transfer it to
the proper people.
(14:24):
So, what I could say about awill is there's a lot of
technical things that would makeit valid.
There's a lot of technicalthings that could go wrong to
make it invalid.
There's also ways that you canwrite it or plan to minimize
probate and that is all a partof the comprehensive services
that I give my clients is I helpthem get that right.
(14:44):
So, a lot of people think, well,if I have a will or I just write
something down, I avoid probate.
I'm taken care of.
But that's not true.
A will just helps the beginningof the probate process go
easier, and it also helps makeit clear during the process.
But avoiding probate orminimizing probate is something
that you actually do with aexperienced estate planning
(15:06):
attorney, and that's asset perasset planning.
A will doesn't do that for you.
Sometimes, a trust.
Can be involved in doing thatand helping with that process,
but It really is a process.
I use that word a lot withclients because it's not a one
and done.
You don't just do a will andyou're done and everything's
taken care of.
Well, it is for you because youwon't be here, but your family
(15:29):
is going to be very upset.
Yeah.
Powers of attorney are thedocuments.
that you get in place, and itnames the people that you choose
to make those most important,most personal decisions for you.
And because my law partner isactually the public guardian in
Buncombe County, and, and that'sin the Asheville, Black
(15:49):
Mountain, And what that meansis, is when the documents aren't
there, or the documents fail, orsomebody's exploiting someone,
the court appoints him to managepeople's finances.
So he's actually, the financialguardian of about 65 people.
And we have probably about 40 or50 special needs trusts.
(16:11):
So, we are helping manage, themost vulnerable population's
money.
He sees to it that all theirbills are paid, that their, you
know, nursing home or theirfacility or if they're in a care
home or group home and that, youknow, even if they need a cell
phone.
Like, it's down to that.
And so, think about that.
You make all those decisions foryourself, right?
(16:31):
You have the freedom to choosehow you spend your money.
Well, what if somebody else wasdoing that for you?
Do you want the court to tellyou who's going to do that or do
you want to put that in writingyourself and get it right and
make sure that document worksthe way that you want it to?
And so that's really theguardianship part of it.
We want to avoid guardianship asmuch as possible.
(16:53):
It's difficult to fully avoidprobate in North Carolina, but
you can substantially minimizethat impact.
But we want to stay out ofguardianship court.
Because we don't want the courttelling us how we can and cannot
spend our money on our ownhealth care.
Are you saying if someone hasn'tassigned a power of attorney to
a family member, they canactually choose to assign power
(17:17):
of attorney to a lawyer?
Like for the special needs casesthat you were talking about, are
you saying that you are thepower of attorney for These
people and you manage that forthem if they don't have a family
member in place to do that forthem.
It's actually a really goodquestion.
There are people that don't havepeople they trust to do those
things.
(17:37):
We won't do the healthcaredecision making in a healthcare
power of attorney.
There are some entities thatwill do that.
We will sometimes do thefinancial.
under a financial power ofattorney.
But in the situation I wastalking about with my law
partner, When someone isdisabled, in order for them to
(17:57):
be able to have some money thatmaybe somebody gave to them, and
then also be on governmentassistance, that it has to be in
a special type of trust that'scalled a special needs trust.
Okay.
And so my law partner isactually a trustee, which is
different than a power ofattorney.
A trust is, is kind of like abusiness, is how I try to get
people to understand it.
(18:17):
Think about a business, it ownsthings, it might have a bank
account, and then there's adocument that says how that
thing is supposed to run.
Interesting.
That's what a trust is.
Interesting.
Thank you for that.
Yeah.
So I was going to ask you aboutyour partner, Victor Garlock.
Yeah.
So he's on the other side of thestate.
He is.
It's almost like, you know, likea long distance relationship you
(18:41):
guys have.
So how's that going to work?
Well, it's funny that you saythat because I remember there
was a time when we first got theBlack Mountain office there.
We both worked remotely beforethat.
So that, working remotely feelsso natural to us because that's
how we had done things.
Well, so he decided he wouldcome in on Tuesdays and
Thursdays to the office.
(19:01):
That would be like his meetingwith clients, seeing me, meeting
with his case managers that helphim with the guardianships and
trusts.
But then Mondays, Wednesdays,Fridays, he would continue the
work remote.
But then I was like, well, I'min Black Mountain.
Our office is a mile down theroad.
I'm just going to go to theoffice every day, you know.
And so there was a, a time whereit came up that he was going to
(19:22):
come in on a Friday orsomething.
And I said, listen, the way thatthis marriage works is you only
come Tuesdays, Thursdays.
So, just jokingly, but no, we,the way that we do things is
we're just there for each other.
When a big decision needs to bemade, we just get on the phone
or if we happen to be in thesame geographical location,
(19:44):
we'll get together and maybehave a little bourbon, maybe
some cigars.
Okay.
And we make our best decisionslike that.
You're speaking my language now.
We do.
We'll get together.
We have to start at 2.
and then about 5 o'clock we Turnon the cigars and and the
bourbon.
but that's we just you knowWe're just there for each other
and we don't really need to bephysically in the same place I
(20:07):
mean lots of law firms havemultiple offices in multiple
places And they still functionand run just fine and that was
part of it is that we juststarted talking about how would
this work and Testing it.
Like I said, it wasn't like justripping the band aid off I
slowly did this so we were ableto work out some kinks about hey
How's this working and we checkin with each other several times
(20:28):
a year We'll have one bigmeeting once a year where I just
say it's just you know, it'sjust still working, right?
We kind of have an agreementthat if the costs ever outweigh
the benefits It's either one ofus can just get out if we need
to.
Sounds like you have, you havea, a pretty great relationship.
We really do.
We really do.
So in terms of your businesshere, I assume you have a
(20:51):
physical location.
I mean, how do, how do peoplethat want your services, get in
touch with you or, or contactyou?
Yeah.
So the best way to reach me isthrough our website and that is
Garlock, G A R L O C K, the wordand, A N D, McKinney, M C K I N
N E Y dot com.
(21:12):
So if they do that, they canjust send me a message.
Okay.
And then I'll call them.
Or, they can call me.
I have a 828 number, but itcomes directly to me.
That number's on the website.
we do lease an office space atInnit Realty right now in Sneeds
Ferry, but most of the time, youknow, if my clients are in
Hampstead or Surf City orwherever, Jacksonville, they
(21:34):
just want me to come to them.
So I just do that.
And then if we have to do a willsigning, we have to have two
other witnesses that aren'trelated to them.
And Sneeds Ferry, we have to gosomewhere that's convenient for
them anyways.
So, no, no walk ins or peoplejust showing up at your office?
We don't do walk ins because Ijust find that to be a really
inefficient way to, to practicelaw and I also think that it
(21:58):
takes away from my otherclients, so I really cater and
customize my schedule to what myclients need.
Okay, and I know this maybe it'skind of touchy but in terms of
the cost or the price andstructure How does that work?
Yeah, sure.
So Probate and guardianships asI said, you can see multiple
lawyers in that hundreds ofthousands of dollars If you work
(22:19):
with me for a probate orguardianship, it's going to
cost, you know, probably twentythousand dollars And it goes up
from there.
It's just how much time isinvolved and my rate is 3.
25 an hour.
However, our charges aretransparent.
So my clients know up front whatthe terms are and they know as
(22:39):
we're going through the processhow much they're paying, how
much we're charging.
We don't charge more moneyunless the client is okay with
it and approves it.
Are always communicating withour client about money and how
much does it cost?
Well, we try really hard toavoid that.
And then if someone wants to doa will with me for the basic
(22:59):
estate planning, which stillincludes comprehensive advice.
We get down to the details for acouple, it starts at 1500 and
then for individual a thousandor so.
And I would just tell people,you know, if you're looking for
cheap, right.
It's going to cost you morelater.
And if you're okay with that,you're okay with that.
(23:20):
But you know, I don't do cheapwills.
That's just not my thing.
Not trying to be the low costleader.
And I, you know, I worked in twoprobate offices as well as
being.
I'm the associate legal counselfor the clerks of court, so I
really know probate well.
So the prices that we charge isvery competitive with other
lawyers that would have the sametype of experience.
(23:41):
I still think I probably beatsome of their prices.
But what you get when you workwith me is really worth what
you're paying.
So now that you have the officehere, are you hiring staff or is
it just you?
How's that?
Right now it's just me here.
And our staff in Black Mountain,they're awesome.
So they can support me whateverI need, even if they're remote.
(24:04):
I am not looking to hire rightnow, but we'll see, you know,
maybe sometime next year.
So the way that we makedecisions is We just sort of try
to look at what's happening, andlike I said, we check in several
times a year, my law partner andI, and so, if it seemed like the
clients here were needing morethan what I could give them.
(24:25):
Then we would talk about, can wehire someone and can they do
that?
But what we don't want to do ishire a lot of warm bodies, but
the client's needs aren't beingmet at the level that I think
that they need.
So we're really careful abouthow we grow.
I remember from our earlierconversation that you also
stated that you tend to dive into probate and, and will issues
(24:47):
that are already kind of in theprocess of being worked out and
they got really messy.
And it's, it's become like a bigordeal and those are, that's
what you thrive in.
Like you dive in and you cleanup the mess, kind of.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that and like, are you
taking these over from otherlawyers or is it just, it's, it
starts out messy?
(25:08):
Or did someone else make a messof it and then you decided to
clean it up?
Yeah.
So I am one of the lawyers thatwill help people when it's
already started.
A lot of law firms will say, youhave to start with me.
Okay.
And that way, they know they cancontrol the process.
But what happens in estates alot of times is, there are a lot
(25:29):
of things that you cananticipate.
You have to do a certain step.
But throughout that process, youcould have, for example, a
creditor you didn't know about.
You have to deal with that.
And sometimes those kinds ofissues just blow up so quickly,
and it's kind of like quicksandand the person just gets, you
know, sucked up by it.
(25:50):
So, and it goes off the railsquickly.
So I do really enjoy, I hate itthat people have to be in those
situations, but once they do getthemselves in those situations,
Then I do really like helpingthem out of it.
So I'll just work with them.
We just put in the hard work,even when something goes awry.
(26:10):
You know, for example, this hashappened a couple of times.
So you go into the courthouseand you open your estate, and
then you go through your wholething.
You pay the bills.
You distribute all the money.
You assume you're doingeverything correctly.
The clerks.
office cannot give legal advice.
They give you a packet ofpapers.
(26:32):
They give you a brochure.
Well, there's so many differentways that the wording in that
brochure can be interpreted.
And so the clients do things andthey go to file what's called an
accounting with the court.
The court actually audits everysingle thing to the penny.
You can't even round up or downlike you can with the IRS.
They're worse than that.
(26:52):
So yeah, they file theirdocuments.
And they don't know until afterthey've done it all, if they're
doing it themselves, thatthey've done it wrong.
And then the clerk's like,you've done it wrong, but we
can't help you fix it.
You need a lawyer.
So they've already paid moneyout, they've already done these
things, and they come to me andthey're just so upset.
(27:14):
They're worried they're going togo to jail.
They don't know, you know,they're just, it's really sad.
And so what I do is I help themmake it right.
And sometimes they have to paymoney.
out of pocket because they didsomething wrong.
They, they didn't mean to.
It wasn't intentional, but theyhave to make it right.
And so I help them, I helpadvise them and coach them along
(27:38):
and encourage them to get itright.
It's just so interesting.
I've actually been thereindirectly with a relative and
we thought she had reallyplanned well.
I mean, they had the will, etc.
But back to your earlier point,She lived a long time, and you
know, 89, 90, she just wasn'table to handle her affairs and
(28:02):
we had to go through thatguardianship conversation.
Fortunately, one of my brotherswas able to get the court to
allow him to take over, andfortunately he's trustworthy.
So it worked out, but it's avery complicated situation, and
I would not Want to try to do itmyself.
(28:22):
One example of it, what couldhappen if someone doesn't have a
financial power of attorney.
And I don't mean to sound scary,because it's going to be a scary
situation, but we see this allthe time.
Since my law partner is, youknow, a financial guardian for
so many people.
So husband and wife buy theirhome together.
(28:44):
On the deed, they are a marriedcouple, husband and wife.
If one of them passes away andthey don't have a will, Their
home will go to the survivor.
No big deal.
But, if one of the spouses wasin an accident, and we've seen
this happen so many times, andthey became unconscious.
(29:05):
They then became brain damaged.
They could no longer do anythinglike sign over property or sell
property or pay their own bills.
And this couple doesn't havefinancial powers of attorney.
The other spouse cannot sell themarital home without.
(29:25):
filing a lawsuit against theirspouse.
It's called an incompetencyproceeding.
Oh my gosh.
They have to file a guardianshipagainst their spouse.
The court appoints a lawyer forthe spouse to represent the
spouse.
It's called a guardian ad litemand it is a lawyer.
It's not a guardian ad litemlike in DSS child support.
So that lawyer then representsthe spouse against their spouse.
(29:49):
A lot of times it works outbeing not against, but from a
legal perspective, we need tounderstand it's adversarial.
Right.
On paper.
Yeah.
So then once the court says,okay, fine, you can be the
guardian.
You still have to account to thecourt for how you spend each
other's money.
So this joint account that you,you used to have together where
(30:10):
you share money, you now splityour money and you have to pay
your spouse's bills separately.
Can't buy joint food.
You can't pay that.
It has to be separate.
And then, and then you stillcan't sell the house.
You have to file yet anotherproceeding and request the court
to give you permission to sellthe other half.
So we're talking how much moneyafter that, 30, 000, 40, 000,
(30:35):
50, 000.
So because maybe somebodydoesn't want to do their
documents or they want a cheappower of attorney, a do it
yourself one.
They're now on guardianshipcourt because it, it failed.
And that's the thing that Iwould like to help people avoid
the most.
That is scary.
It is.
I don't believe people knowabout this.
No, certainly not.
They don't until they do.
(30:55):
I have never heard this before.
They don't until they do.
Yeah.
And it's too late.
Wow.
Okay.
Well, thanks for, thanks forthat.
Yeah.
Moving on.
Yeah.
Don't wait until you have to,you know, do that.
Don't wait until it's too late.
Well, this is why a lot ofpeople, they don't know that
that's a possible scenario, butthey do hear you have to have
those things.
So they go and get them, butsome people don't.
(31:17):
And those are the people whoactually, unfortunately go
through that situation.
And I guess that's the folksthat show up at your door.
Yeah.
And we'll help them, and I'mglad to help them, but I want to
help people avoid having to dothat.
Sure.
But it's good that people likeyou are around, though, too,
because, That is one heck of amess.
It is.
(31:38):
And I think this is a veryimportant episode and, and I
thank you for explaining that insuch detail because really I
feel clueless and after that nowI'm, I'm also scared.
I've learned a lot, but, um,yeah, I've definitely got to
make some plans too.
Well, I have my business cardswith me.
Yeah, we'll take some.
(32:04):
Let me, let me ask you this.
What, you know, as you talkabout this and you've done a
lot, I just wonder, where do yousee the business?
Five years from now.
What what are the plans for thefuture?
Yeah, I mean, I I love to helppeople with complicated things,
you know in my practice area SoI am just super grateful to be
able to be in this place thatI've dreamed of being in You
(32:27):
know for so long and be able tobring with me this experience
that I have and this knowledgethat I have and to like offer
these services to help thepeople here and the citizens of
our great, you know, Topsailarea.
And so that is so exciting tome.
I don't like it that people gothrough hard things, but I feel
very fortunate to be able to beone of the people that can help
(32:49):
them through some of thosethings.
So really, I am just taking onthe clients that come my way and
helping them, you know, one at atime.
And if, you know, I don't thinkthat they're a good fit, or if I
think I have colleaguesstatewide, that's the benefit of
having practiced in Wake Countyand knowing people in state
(33:09):
government and being in themountains and being here, I can
get people help.
For pretty much any type oflegal issue that they need, even
if I'm not the best one to helpthem.
But, and a lot of people they'llcold call law firms, they'll
call 10 law firms sometimes andthen I'll talk to them and
they'll say, you're the onlyperson that called me back in a
(33:29):
short period of time.
And so sometimes I can just helpthem get to the next level
because lawyers are really busyand taking in a cold call and
taking that client on notknowing them.
But if you have another lawyer,get them to you.
They're going to get in and getthe, the, their needs met a lot
quicker.
So I can do that for people aswell.
(33:51):
It's relatively easy for you towork with people from outside
our area or across NorthCarolina period.
So is there a way around thesignatures when you're signing
documents?
A ton of my clients are out ofstate.
Are they?
Oh, out of state as well.
Yeah.
I don't meet with a lot of myclients in person.
Okay.
I can do so many things and havebeen for years and years and
(34:13):
years before we had this whole.
So do you sign documentselectronically?
The court won't let you do thatand you can't do that with
wills.
So, what you do with, probatedocuments is I have this whole
system, this way that I get themto the clients, and they have
this list of instructions, likebulleted instructions, each
document, what it is, they haveopportunities to talk with me or
(34:36):
get on Zoom if we need to orwhatever it is that they need.
And then they have theinstructions to go get them
notarized and then how to getthem back to us so then we can
do the filing.
Mailing it through FedEx or UPSor whatever with detailed,
detailed instructions.
Yeah, and either me or my staffmembers will help coordinate
that.
That's a great question.
(34:56):
Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.
So you're working with out ofstate, so it's not just North
Carolina folks.
And the laws are differentacross the states, I would
imagine.
So we only do North Carolinaprobate.
We can do any county.
We can practice anywhere inNorth Carolina.
But what happens is if you losta loved one, but you don't live
here, then the people who liveout of state will call and say,
(35:19):
I need help.
Or there could be a primaryestate in a different state, but
they just have one asset here,like a home or a rental
property.
And they, they need what'scalled a secondary estate or an
ancillary.
And so I'll do that piece forthem.
Before we wrap things up,Mariah, what would you say is.
(35:40):
The one thing you want to leaveour listeners with today.
Again, you know, I'm just, I'mreally grateful to be able to
help people.
And it does sound a littlecliche when people say, Oh, why
did you want to be a lawyer?
And a lot of lawyers, believe itor not, will say, I wanted to
help people.
And lawyers don't really havethe greatest reputation for
(36:01):
helping, right?
Well, and just, you know, theyget it better out, but there
really are a lot of lawyers outthere that really want to help
people.
And it is such a privilege to beable to truly help people.
And I also would say this, like,I do take the attorney and
counselor at law role veryseriously.
A lot of people just want to bea lawyer.
(36:21):
But with what I do, if you'vehad a loved one who loses
capacity, you're alreadygrieving a loss.
If you've lost someone to death,you've lost, you know, you're
grieving.
So I'm kind of like a griefcounselor in some respects that
people come to me and theysometimes have a foggy brain and
(36:42):
they can't even move forward tothe next thing.
Going to the bank to close.
a bank account because theirloved one died.
Removing their name off the bankaccount is like a breakdown for
some people.
You know, it's so sad.
And so what I do is I take thatheavy burden of all these
technical details and thefinances and the nuances and the
(37:04):
spreadsheets and all the courtrequirements and I, I bear that
burden for them.
I've never thought of it thatway before.
Thank you so much.
I feel like I've learned so muchfrom this conversation.
Seriously.
Well, you guys are wonderful.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So I guess we're out of time,Mariah, but, before we wrap up,
(37:27):
let's remind everyone how theycan, how they can get in touch
with you.
Yeah.
The best way is our website,Garlock, G A R L O C K.
A N D McKinney, M C K I N N E Ydot com.
You can read a little bit aboutme, read a little bit about the
practice areas, my law partner,and then just on my bio it says
(37:52):
send Mariah a message, you justsend me a message.
And I will get in touch with youor someone at our office will.
What about social media?
Are you on social media at all?
Yeah, we have a Facebook page.
I, you know, people can messageme from Facebook.
You can just look me up.
I don't care if you message methrough my personal page.
I use it pretty much only forbusiness anyways.
Anyway someone wants to try toget in touch with me.
(38:14):
I will respond.
Okay, so insiders, you know thatyou can go to our show notes
where we'll have the websitelink for you along with any
links to Mariah's socials.
So thank you, Mariah, forjoining us today and telling us
all about Garlock and McKinney.
And it was a pleasure chattingwith you and getting to know
you.
I think you're awesome.
And Marlon, you did great.
(38:35):
I love having you as a host forTopsill Insider and I'm really
looking forward to having you doa lot more interviews for us.
Thank you.
Same here.
I'm, I'm excited about it.
Hey, if you enjoyed today'sepisode of Topsail Insider,
please show your support byclicking the follow or subscribe
button on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
You can also follow us onFacebook, Instagram, Twitter,
(38:58):
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Please also go totopsailinsider.Com and join our
mailing list by clicking on theMake Me a Topsail Insider
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While you're there, you canclick the send me a voicemail
button and let me know exactlywhat you're thinking.
Your message just might be on anepisode of Topsail Insider.
You can email me at Christa atTopsillInsider.
(39:18):
com or call or text me at 910800 0111.
Thank you for listening andsupporting Topsill Insider and
our local businesses andnonprofits.
These are our neighbors and ourfriends and together we build a
mighty and a beautiful communityI'm super proud to be a part of.
I'll see you around Topsail.
Welcome to Topsail Insider,where you can hear all about the
businesses and events in thebeautiful coastal towns in the
greater Topsail area of NorthCarolina.
Coming up, today we'reinterviewing Mariah McKinney.
A lawyer and partner at GarlockMcKinney.
We'll discuss wills, probates,trusts, guardianships.
(00:25):
All things we should be thinkingabout now but tend to put off
until it's too late.
Are you prepared?
Do you think you might beprepared but don't know for
sure?
Are you currently caught up in aprobate situation that has you
losing sleep at night?
If so, stay tuned for this andmore.
(00:45):
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(01:52):
Hello everyone.
My name is Krista and I am yourco host today and I'd like to
introduce Mr.
Marlon Weems, a new TopsailInsider co host who has his own
podcast experience, is anincredible writer.
He has an extensive financialand entrepreneurial background,
which we will one day berecording Marlon so that people
can really get a feel for you.
(02:13):
Thanks for the, theintroduction, Krista.
I am really excited to be on theteam.
Awesome.
Our guest today is MariahMcKinney.
Mariah is a lawyer and a partnerat Garlock and McKinney.
So welcome Mariah and thanks forjoining us.
Thanks for having me.
before we dive in, I think it'dbe good if you gave us sort of a
(02:34):
quick overview of the legalservices that you provide and
then after that maybe we can getinto the details of, you know,
why these are so important in,in our next segment.
Yeah, sure.
Just for a brief summary.
we do probate administration,estate administration is another
way to describe it,guardianships.
(02:56):
A lot of times that's involvingadults who lack, mental
capacity.
They can't really make decisionsfor themselves.
So they need the court toappoint someone to do that for
them.
A lot of things involving trustsand wills and proceedings before
the court.
So there's, a lot of people arefamiliar with.
(03:17):
a civil action or a trafficcourt, but there's a lot of
things that go on in front ofthe clerk of court that involves
estates and guardianships andprobate.
And so I do, I handle thoseproceedings.
Now, I know from our previousconversations, you know, just in
terms of your location, you'reofficially in Topsail, on
(03:38):
Topsail Island, or in theTopsail area now.
But before that, you also had along history here.
Maybe you can tell us a littlebit about, you know, your
transition, I guess, fromWestern North Carolina to, to
Eastern and, and how that allcame about.
Yeah.
So I'm a North Carolina girlthrough and through.
I was born in the Sandhills inLee County.
(04:00):
And, my dad remarried and helived in Wake County.
So, I graduated from high schoolin Wake County.
And then, because I love thebeach so much, I went to UNCW
because I just had to be asclose to the ocean as I could
possibly be.
And that's because mygrandparents had worked really
(04:20):
hard to work their way toTopsail Island.
So, they ended up living in SurfCity for over 30 years until
they both passed away there.
And so growing up, from the timeI was a small child, I just
spent as much time as I possiblycould with them there on the
island.
If they went fishing, I wentfishing.
they were fishermen, not forincome per se, but they did eat
(04:45):
what they killed.
And we loved fishing together.
They would spend like, you know,nights, midnight, 3 a.
m., 5 a.
m., whatever the, the catch wasgoing to be and the time that
you needed to fish on the pier,they were out on the pier.
So they were as much, yeah, asmuch as they could.
They worked so that they couldthen have time to fish.
(05:07):
Like, so they worked to likebasically feed their fishing
habit.
Topswell Island was a hugefishing town for the longest
time and just that, that's whatyou came to Surf City for was
to, to fish off that pier and,and off the surf as well.
Yeah, that's what they loved andthat's what they were here for.
Do you remember some of like theolder stores that are no longer
(05:28):
here?
Yes, and they had so many jobs.
I don't even know like how theyworked all the jobs that they
worked So they ran the EastCoast discount store, which is
now the East Coast sportinggoods right there underneath the
high rise bridge They helped runthe Barnacle Bills Pier in
(05:48):
different aspects of thatbusiness.
There was a motel near BarnacleBills Pier before Fran destroyed
both Barnacle Bills and themotel.
They actually ran the motel andflipped over, like cleaned and
turned over all of the stays andthey had a little.
It was crazy because it was likeup on the second floor of that
(06:09):
motel.
It's like a two story motel andthey like built a home residence
out like on top of the secondstory of that and they had this
panoramic view of the ocean.
They were literally just stepsfrom the ocean and they had this
Huge glass window and everymorning we would just pull back
the big drapes and then theocean was just right there So
(06:31):
gorgeous.
Yeah, it was it was awesome.
They my grandmother also workedat the IGA And they worked at
Seaview Pier.
I mean they worked everywhere.
They were just Literally, it waslike their heart and soul, you
know, the island was just a partof them I know you're, you met
your husband and he's from theother side of the state and you
(06:51):
referred to him as a mountainman.
Yep, yep.
So it's interesting to me, I'dreally like to know how you
convinced your mountain man tobecome a beach mom.
So UNCW doesn't have a lawschool.
There's no law schools here onthe East Coast, so I had to go
back to the Raleigh area Andthen I graduated from law school
and was working in Raleigh withthe judicial branch.
(07:15):
One of my jobs was, I wasassistant legal counsel and I
actually advised the clerks ofcourt.
I wrote training procedures forthem.
I helped them make decisions.
And now that's the practice areathat I do.
So I know it really well fromthat.
So he is in the financialdepartment.
through that same governmentalentity, and he just happened to
(07:37):
live at the mountains, eventhough I was a beach girl.
So that is how much, I loved himthat I went to the mountains to
be with him.
And so now it's kind of like myturn.
He had sons and they were veryyoung and they needed to
graduate from high school andhave the opportunities in their
hometown that they could haveto, you know, grow up and
graduate and go into the world.
And now that they are older, youknow, they're over 20 and
(08:00):
they're in the world, we can nowcome here to the beach and, and,
and do that part.
Yeah.
Reciprocate.
That's right.
That's right.
Now you've got family herestill.
I do.
And what's, what's crazy aboutit is when I was in Raleigh, it
was sort of like my mom andsister moved here.
As a precursor, because theywere like, well, we're all going
to eventually be here at thebeach.
(08:21):
And then I moved all the wayacross the state to the
mountains.
So I, I disrupted the plan.
Well, my husband disrupted theplan, right?
It's his fault.
Put it on him.
But yeah, so my sister and mybrother in law, they live in
Sneeds Ferry.
And my mom lives in SneadsFerry.
And then my husband and I, wealso have a small rental condo
(08:41):
in North Topsville.
So we get to stay there on theoff season.
We rent it on the on season.
And a lot of people might knowmy brother in law.
his name is Scott, but he'sknown, as Scotty Strings.
Oh, I know.
This is so crazy because as wetalked about, my wife, for a
couple of years was the, barmanager at the Quartermoon.
(09:02):
And so part of her,responsibilities was arranging
all of the musicalentertainment.
So when you said, you know, mybrother in law is kind of well
known.
I was like, I, I'm sure I knowthis guy and, and I see him all
the time.
Oh my gosh.
He's so good.
And, His, his Johnny Cash is, islike primo.
(09:23):
Yes.
We have a lot of fun togethersinging and playing music.
And so yeah, I love being here,you know, with my family.
We spend a lot of time together.
Just from, you know, I guessgoing back to your, your area of
expertise and, you know, whetherit's personal or business
related, what would you say hasbeen your, your biggest
challenge moving, you know, fromthe West over to the coast?
(09:48):
I mean, and I guess maybe bothpersonally and, and business
wise.
Yeah.
I think the biggest challengewas that, you know, sometimes in
life you just have wantedsomething or it's been your
dream and you know you want itnow.
And we have had to do this in aperiod of time.
We've had to work towards it.
(10:09):
So I've actually been coming towork remotely here for long
periods of time since 2015.
So I would come for two weeksand then I would try it for a
month and then I'd say, oh, thisis, this could work.
Two months and thankfully my lawpartner is so great.
We complement each other so welland from the beginning of us
(10:29):
coming together there I said,now listen, I'm on a five year
plan and in five years I'm, I'mgoing to the, I'm going to the
beach.
When these kids graduate fromhigh school, it didn't happen
exactly in five years, but Istarted working towards that.
And so I would say that'sprobably been the most
challenging thing is figuringout how to do it slowly.
(10:50):
And you know, a lot of peoplejust move and they're just there
now.
And we haven't done that, thatway.
But it's also been cool becauseit's given us this transition
period of time where, you know,a lot of times if you just quit,
you know, you quit what you'redoing and you move, you have
that period of grief.
A lot of people say after aboutsix months, you kind of grieve
the loss of where you left.
(11:11):
And so we're not really going tohave that so much as we've kind
of worked towards it.
You kind of segwayed into it.
Yeah, so the challenge hasworked out.
Not quite as painful.
But you had to exercise yourpatience.
It sounds like your patience.
And basically packing up, youknow, if you go, I go back to
the mountains sometimes for twoweeks or three weeks, depending
(11:31):
on what's happening and you're,you have to pack up everything
you're going to need.
So you're almost like movingthree times a year, which is.
Crazy.
That's challenging.
It's building lots of character.
That's a good positive spin onit.
That's right.
(11:52):
So why don't we talk and maybedig in a little bit to, into
your primary areas of business.
And as I understand it, You,you've got four sort of buckets
of business, wills, probates,trusts, and guardianship.
So why don't you tell us alittle bit about each one of
those and what, struggles or howhard or easy each one, is, or
(12:14):
maybe even talk about howimportant it is to sort of
prepare for those things soonerrather than later.
Yeah.
probate and guardianship.
are the things that once you getinto that place, you're, you're
before the court.
So you're at the default level.
So it's a, it's kind of likealmost like you failed to plan
(12:36):
to avoid someone else makingdecisions for you.
So when you get into probate andguardianship, you're talking
about super costly.
You know, contested estates, youcan see multiple attorneys
coming in, representing multiplepeople, and you can see hundreds
of thousands of dollars in legalfees.
Sometimes that couldn't beavoided, but sometimes it could
(13:00):
have been avoided if theintentions were made known and
if the estate plan was writtenin such a way that it worked the
way that the person intended.
And so a lot of the things canbe avoided.
A lot of those costs can beavoided.
I think a lot of people,including myself, we haven't
come up against those issues yetin our life.
I'm fortunate enough to haveboth of my parents, as is my
(13:22):
husband.
So we don't really understand.
We know that everyone needs awill, but I don't understand
probate.
I don't understand trusts andguardianship as well.
So can you kind of explain thatto the people who Really just
think we need to write somethinglike, I leave this to this
person and we think we're donewhen we're really not.
(13:43):
Yeah, that does kind of go intoa real technical area.
I can just say to you the mostsimple way to describe probate
is that it's the process ofcollecting everything that's
owed to a person, finally, afterthey pass.
Paying off all the debts andfinalizing their final tax
(14:03):
returns.
And yes, people think that youdon't have to file tax returns
once you die, but, you know,someone else has to actually
file that one for you, so taxesdo survive you.
And then, the probate is thatprocess where whatever's left
over after you settle all thosethings, you then transfer it to
the proper people.
(14:24):
So, what I could say about awill is there's a lot of
technical things that would makeit valid.
There's a lot of technicalthings that could go wrong to
make it invalid.
There's also ways that you canwrite it or plan to minimize
probate and that is all a partof the comprehensive services
that I give my clients is I helpthem get that right.
(14:44):
So, a lot of people think, well,if I have a will or I just write
something down, I avoid probate.
I'm taken care of.
But that's not true.
A will just helps the beginningof the probate process go
easier, and it also helps makeit clear during the process.
But avoiding probate orminimizing probate is something
that you actually do with aexperienced estate planning
(15:06):
attorney, and that's asset perasset planning.
A will doesn't do that for you.
Sometimes, a trust.
Can be involved in doing thatand helping with that process,
but It really is a process.
I use that word a lot withclients because it's not a one
and done.
You don't just do a will andyou're done and everything's
taken care of.
Well, it is for you because youwon't be here, but your family
(15:29):
is going to be very upset.
Yeah.
Powers of attorney are thedocuments.
that you get in place, and itnames the people that you choose
to make those most important,most personal decisions for you.
And because my law partner isactually the public guardian in
Buncombe County, and, and that'sin the Asheville, Black
(15:49):
Mountain, And what that meansis, is when the documents aren't
there, or the documents fail, orsomebody's exploiting someone,
the court appoints him to managepeople's finances.
So he's actually, the financialguardian of about 65 people.
And we have probably about 40 or50 special needs trusts.
(16:11):
So, we are helping manage, themost vulnerable population's
money.
He sees to it that all theirbills are paid, that their, you
know, nursing home or theirfacility or if they're in a care
home or group home and that, youknow, even if they need a cell
phone.
Like, it's down to that.
And so, think about that.
You make all those decisions foryourself, right?
(16:31):
You have the freedom to choosehow you spend your money.
Well, what if somebody else wasdoing that for you?
Do you want the court to tellyou who's going to do that or do
you want to put that in writingyourself and get it right and
make sure that document worksthe way that you want it to?
And so that's really theguardianship part of it.
We want to avoid guardianship asmuch as possible.
(16:53):
It's difficult to fully avoidprobate in North Carolina, but
you can substantially minimizethat impact.
But we want to stay out ofguardianship court.
Because we don't want the courttelling us how we can and cannot
spend our money on our ownhealth care.
Are you saying if someone hasn'tassigned a power of attorney to
a family member, they canactually choose to assign power
(17:17):
of attorney to a lawyer?
Like for the special needs casesthat you were talking about, are
you saying that you are thepower of attorney for These
people and you manage that forthem if they don't have a family
member in place to do that forthem.
It's actually a really goodquestion.
There are people that don't havepeople they trust to do those
things.
(17:37):
We won't do the healthcaredecision making in a healthcare
power of attorney.
There are some entities thatwill do that.
We will sometimes do thefinancial.
under a financial power ofattorney.
But in the situation I wastalking about with my law
partner, When someone isdisabled, in order for them to
(17:57):
be able to have some money thatmaybe somebody gave to them, and
then also be on governmentassistance, that it has to be in
a special type of trust that'scalled a special needs trust.
Okay.
And so my law partner isactually a trustee, which is
different than a power ofattorney.
A trust is, is kind of like abusiness, is how I try to get
people to understand it.
(18:17):
Think about a business, it ownsthings, it might have a bank
account, and then there's adocument that says how that
thing is supposed to run.
Interesting.
That's what a trust is.
Interesting.
Thank you for that.
Yeah.
So I was going to ask you aboutyour partner, Victor Garlock.
Yeah.
So he's on the other side of thestate.
He is.
It's almost like, you know, likea long distance relationship you
(18:41):
guys have.
So how's that going to work?
Well, it's funny that you saythat because I remember there
was a time when we first got theBlack Mountain office there.
We both worked remotely beforethat.
So that, working remotely feelsso natural to us because that's
how we had done things.
Well, so he decided he wouldcome in on Tuesdays and
Thursdays to the office.
(19:01):
That would be like his meetingwith clients, seeing me, meeting
with his case managers that helphim with the guardianships and
trusts.
But then Mondays, Wednesdays,Fridays, he would continue the
work remote.
But then I was like, well, I'min Black Mountain.
Our office is a mile down theroad.
I'm just going to go to theoffice every day, you know.
And so there was a, a time whereit came up that he was going to
(19:22):
come in on a Friday orsomething.
And I said, listen, the way thatthis marriage works is you only
come Tuesdays, Thursdays.
So, just jokingly, but no, we,the way that we do things is
we're just there for each other.
When a big decision needs to bemade, we just get on the phone
or if we happen to be in thesame geographical location,
(19:44):
we'll get together and maybehave a little bourbon, maybe
some cigars.
Okay.
And we make our best decisionslike that.
You're speaking my language now.
We do.
We'll get together.
We have to start at 2.
and then about 5 o'clock we Turnon the cigars and and the
bourbon.
but that's we just you knowWe're just there for each other
and we don't really need to bephysically in the same place I
(20:07):
mean lots of law firms havemultiple offices in multiple
places And they still functionand run just fine and that was
part of it is that we juststarted talking about how would
this work and Testing it.
Like I said, it wasn't like justripping the band aid off I
slowly did this so we were ableto work out some kinks about hey
How's this working and we checkin with each other several times
(20:28):
a year We'll have one bigmeeting once a year where I just
say it's just you know, it'sjust still working, right?
We kind of have an agreementthat if the costs ever outweigh
the benefits It's either one ofus can just get out if we need
to.
Sounds like you have, you havea, a pretty great relationship.
We really do.
We really do.
So in terms of your businesshere, I assume you have a
(20:51):
physical location.
I mean, how do, how do peoplethat want your services, get in
touch with you or, or contactyou?
Yeah.
So the best way to reach me isthrough our website and that is
Garlock, G A R L O C K, the wordand, A N D, McKinney, M C K I N
N E Y dot com.
(21:12):
So if they do that, they canjust send me a message.
Okay.
And then I'll call them.
Or, they can call me.
I have a 828 number, but itcomes directly to me.
That number's on the website.
we do lease an office space atInnit Realty right now in Sneeds
Ferry, but most of the time, youknow, if my clients are in
Hampstead or Surf City orwherever, Jacksonville, they
(21:34):
just want me to come to them.
So I just do that.
And then if we have to do a willsigning, we have to have two
other witnesses that aren'trelated to them.
And Sneeds Ferry, we have to gosomewhere that's convenient for
them anyways.
So, no, no walk ins or peoplejust showing up at your office?
We don't do walk ins because Ijust find that to be a really
inefficient way to, to practicelaw and I also think that it
(21:58):
takes away from my otherclients, so I really cater and
customize my schedule to what myclients need.
Okay, and I know this maybe it'skind of touchy but in terms of
the cost or the price andstructure How does that work?
Yeah, sure.
So Probate and guardianships asI said, you can see multiple
lawyers in that hundreds ofthousands of dollars If you work
(22:19):
with me for a probate orguardianship, it's going to
cost, you know, probably twentythousand dollars And it goes up
from there.
It's just how much time isinvolved and my rate is 3.
25 an hour.
However, our charges aretransparent.
So my clients know up front whatthe terms are and they know as
(22:39):
we're going through the processhow much they're paying, how
much we're charging.
We don't charge more moneyunless the client is okay with
it and approves it.
Are always communicating withour client about money and how
much does it cost?
Well, we try really hard toavoid that.
And then if someone wants to doa will with me for the basic
(22:59):
estate planning, which stillincludes comprehensive advice.
We get down to the details for acouple, it starts at 1500 and
then for individual a thousandor so.
And I would just tell people,you know, if you're looking for
cheap, right.
It's going to cost you morelater.
And if you're okay with that,you're okay with that.
(23:20):
But you know, I don't do cheapwills.
That's just not my thing.
Not trying to be the low costleader.
And I, you know, I worked in twoprobate offices as well as
being.
I'm the associate legal counselfor the clerks of court, so I
really know probate well.
So the prices that we charge isvery competitive with other
lawyers that would have the sametype of experience.
(23:41):
I still think I probably beatsome of their prices.
But what you get when you workwith me is really worth what
you're paying.
So now that you have the officehere, are you hiring staff or is
it just you?
How's that?
Right now it's just me here.
And our staff in Black Mountain,they're awesome.
So they can support me whateverI need, even if they're remote.
(24:04):
I am not looking to hire rightnow, but we'll see, you know,
maybe sometime next year.
So the way that we makedecisions is We just sort of try
to look at what's happening, andlike I said, we check in several
times a year, my law partner andI, and so, if it seemed like the
clients here were needing morethan what I could give them.
(24:25):
Then we would talk about, can wehire someone and can they do
that?
But what we don't want to do ishire a lot of warm bodies, but
the client's needs aren't beingmet at the level that I think
that they need.
So we're really careful abouthow we grow.
I remember from our earlierconversation that you also
stated that you tend to dive into probate and, and will issues
(24:47):
that are already kind of in theprocess of being worked out and
they got really messy.
And it's, it's become like a bigordeal and those are, that's
what you thrive in.
Like you dive in and you cleanup the mess, kind of.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that and like, are you
taking these over from otherlawyers or is it just, it's, it
starts out messy?
(25:08):
Or did someone else make a messof it and then you decided to
clean it up?
Yeah.
So I am one of the lawyers thatwill help people when it's
already started.
A lot of law firms will say, youhave to start with me.
Okay.
And that way, they know they cancontrol the process.
But what happens in estates alot of times is, there are a lot
(25:29):
of things that you cananticipate.
You have to do a certain step.
But throughout that process, youcould have, for example, a
creditor you didn't know about.
You have to deal with that.
And sometimes those kinds ofissues just blow up so quickly,
and it's kind of like quicksandand the person just gets, you
know, sucked up by it.
(25:50):
So, and it goes off the railsquickly.
So I do really enjoy, I hate itthat people have to be in those
situations, but once they do getthemselves in those situations,
Then I do really like helpingthem out of it.
So I'll just work with them.
We just put in the hard work,even when something goes awry.
(26:10):
You know, for example, this hashappened a couple of times.
So you go into the courthouseand you open your estate, and
then you go through your wholething.
You pay the bills.
You distribute all the money.
You assume you're doingeverything correctly.
The clerks.
office cannot give legal advice.
They give you a packet ofpapers.
(26:32):
They give you a brochure.
Well, there's so many differentways that the wording in that
brochure can be interpreted.
And so the clients do things andthey go to file what's called an
accounting with the court.
The court actually audits everysingle thing to the penny.
You can't even round up or downlike you can with the IRS.
They're worse than that.
(26:52):
So yeah, they file theirdocuments.
And they don't know until afterthey've done it all, if they're
doing it themselves, thatthey've done it wrong.
And then the clerk's like,you've done it wrong, but we
can't help you fix it.
You need a lawyer.
So they've already paid moneyout, they've already done these
things, and they come to me andthey're just so upset.
(27:14):
They're worried they're going togo to jail.
They don't know, you know,they're just, it's really sad.
And so what I do is I help themmake it right.
And sometimes they have to paymoney.
out of pocket because they didsomething wrong.
They, they didn't mean to.
It wasn't intentional, but theyhave to make it right.
And so I help them, I helpadvise them and coach them along
(27:38):
and encourage them to get itright.
It's just so interesting.
I've actually been thereindirectly with a relative and
we thought she had reallyplanned well.
I mean, they had the will, etc.
But back to your earlier point,She lived a long time, and you
know, 89, 90, she just wasn'table to handle her affairs and
(28:02):
we had to go through thatguardianship conversation.
Fortunately, one of my brotherswas able to get the court to
allow him to take over, andfortunately he's trustworthy.
So it worked out, but it's avery complicated situation, and
I would not Want to try to do itmyself.
(28:22):
One example of it, what couldhappen if someone doesn't have a
financial power of attorney.
And I don't mean to sound scary,because it's going to be a scary
situation, but we see this allthe time.
Since my law partner is, youknow, a financial guardian for
so many people.
So husband and wife buy theirhome together.
(28:44):
On the deed, they are a marriedcouple, husband and wife.
If one of them passes away andthey don't have a will, Their
home will go to the survivor.
No big deal.
But, if one of the spouses wasin an accident, and we've seen
this happen so many times, andthey became unconscious.
(29:05):
They then became brain damaged.
They could no longer do anythinglike sign over property or sell
property or pay their own bills.
And this couple doesn't havefinancial powers of attorney.
The other spouse cannot sell themarital home without.
(29:25):
filing a lawsuit against theirspouse.
It's called an incompetencyproceeding.
Oh my gosh.
They have to file a guardianshipagainst their spouse.
The court appoints a lawyer forthe spouse to represent the
spouse.
It's called a guardian ad litemand it is a lawyer.
It's not a guardian ad litemlike in DSS child support.
So that lawyer then representsthe spouse against their spouse.
(29:49):
A lot of times it works outbeing not against, but from a
legal perspective, we need tounderstand it's adversarial.
Right.
On paper.
Yeah.
So then once the court says,okay, fine, you can be the
guardian.
You still have to account to thecourt for how you spend each
other's money.
So this joint account that you,you used to have together where
(30:10):
you share money, you now splityour money and you have to pay
your spouse's bills separately.
Can't buy joint food.
You can't pay that.
It has to be separate.
And then, and then you stillcan't sell the house.
You have to file yet anotherproceeding and request the court
to give you permission to sellthe other half.
So we're talking how much moneyafter that, 30, 000, 40, 000,
(30:35):
50, 000.
So because maybe somebodydoesn't want to do their
documents or they want a cheappower of attorney, a do it
yourself one.
They're now on guardianshipcourt because it, it failed.
And that's the thing that Iwould like to help people avoid
the most.
That is scary.
It is.
I don't believe people knowabout this.
No, certainly not.
They don't until they do.
(30:55):
I have never heard this before.
They don't until they do.
Yeah.
And it's too late.
Wow.
Okay.
Well, thanks for, thanks forthat.
Yeah.
Moving on.
Yeah.
Don't wait until you have to,you know, do that.
Don't wait until it's too late.
Well, this is why a lot ofpeople, they don't know that
that's a possible scenario, butthey do hear you have to have
those things.
So they go and get them, butsome people don't.
(31:17):
And those are the people whoactually, unfortunately go
through that situation.
And I guess that's the folksthat show up at your door.
Yeah.
And we'll help them, and I'mglad to help them, but I want to
help people avoid having to dothat.
Sure.
But it's good that people likeyou are around, though, too,
because, That is one heck of amess.
It is.
(31:38):
And I think this is a veryimportant episode and, and I
thank you for explaining that insuch detail because really I
feel clueless and after that nowI'm, I'm also scared.
I've learned a lot, but, um,yeah, I've definitely got to
make some plans too.
Well, I have my business cardswith me.
Yeah, we'll take some.
(32:04):
Let me, let me ask you this.
What, you know, as you talkabout this and you've done a
lot, I just wonder, where do yousee the business?
Five years from now.
What what are the plans for thefuture?
Yeah, I mean, I I love to helppeople with complicated things,
you know in my practice area SoI am just super grateful to be
able to be in this place thatI've dreamed of being in You
(32:27):
know for so long and be able tobring with me this experience
that I have and this knowledgethat I have and to like offer
these services to help thepeople here and the citizens of
our great, you know, Topsailarea.
And so that is so exciting tome.
I don't like it that people gothrough hard things, but I feel
very fortunate to be able to beone of the people that can help
(32:49):
them through some of thosethings.
So really, I am just taking onthe clients that come my way and
helping them, you know, one at atime.
And if, you know, I don't thinkthat they're a good fit, or if I
think I have colleaguesstatewide, that's the benefit of
having practiced in Wake Countyand knowing people in state
(33:09):
government and being in themountains and being here, I can
get people help.
For pretty much any type oflegal issue that they need, even
if I'm not the best one to helpthem.
But, and a lot of people they'llcold call law firms, they'll
call 10 law firms sometimes andthen I'll talk to them and
they'll say, you're the onlyperson that called me back in a
(33:29):
short period of time.
And so sometimes I can just helpthem get to the next level
because lawyers are really busyand taking in a cold call and
taking that client on notknowing them.
But if you have another lawyer,get them to you.
They're going to get in and getthe, the, their needs met a lot
quicker.
So I can do that for people aswell.
(33:51):
It's relatively easy for you towork with people from outside
our area or across NorthCarolina period.
So is there a way around thesignatures when you're signing
documents?
A ton of my clients are out ofstate.
Are they?
Oh, out of state as well.
Yeah.
I don't meet with a lot of myclients in person.
Okay.
I can do so many things and havebeen for years and years and
(34:13):
years before we had this whole.
So do you sign documentselectronically?
The court won't let you do thatand you can't do that with
wills.
So, what you do with, probatedocuments is I have this whole
system, this way that I get themto the clients, and they have
this list of instructions, likebulleted instructions, each
document, what it is, they haveopportunities to talk with me or
(34:36):
get on Zoom if we need to orwhatever it is that they need.
And then they have theinstructions to go get them
notarized and then how to getthem back to us so then we can
do the filing.
Mailing it through FedEx or UPSor whatever with detailed,
detailed instructions.
Yeah, and either me or my staffmembers will help coordinate
that.
That's a great question.
(34:56):
Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.
So you're working with out ofstate, so it's not just North
Carolina folks.
And the laws are differentacross the states, I would
imagine.
So we only do North Carolinaprobate.
We can do any county.
We can practice anywhere inNorth Carolina.
But what happens is if you losta loved one, but you don't live
here, then the people who liveout of state will call and say,
(35:19):
I need help.
Or there could be a primaryestate in a different state, but
they just have one asset here,like a home or a rental
property.
And they, they need what'scalled a secondary estate or an
ancillary.
And so I'll do that piece forthem.
Before we wrap things up,Mariah, what would you say is.
(35:40):
The one thing you want to leaveour listeners with today.
Again, you know, I'm just, I'mreally grateful to be able to
help people.
And it does sound a littlecliche when people say, Oh, why
did you want to be a lawyer?
And a lot of lawyers, believe itor not, will say, I wanted to
help people.
And lawyers don't really havethe greatest reputation for
(36:01):
helping, right?
Well, and just, you know, theyget it better out, but there
really are a lot of lawyers outthere that really want to help
people.
And it is such a privilege to beable to truly help people.
And I also would say this, like,I do take the attorney and
counselor at law role veryseriously.
A lot of people just want to bea lawyer.
(36:21):
But with what I do, if you'vehad a loved one who loses
capacity, you're alreadygrieving a loss.
If you've lost someone to death,you've lost, you know, you're
grieving.
So I'm kind of like a griefcounselor in some respects that
people come to me and theysometimes have a foggy brain and
(36:42):
they can't even move forward tothe next thing.
Going to the bank to close.
a bank account because theirloved one died.
Removing their name off the bankaccount is like a breakdown for
some people.
You know, it's so sad.
And so what I do is I take thatheavy burden of all these
technical details and thefinances and the nuances and the
(37:04):
spreadsheets and all the courtrequirements and I, I bear that
burden for them.
I've never thought of it thatway before.
Thank you so much.
I feel like I've learned so muchfrom this conversation.
Seriously.
Well, you guys are wonderful.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So I guess we're out of time,Mariah, but, before we wrap up,
(37:27):
let's remind everyone how theycan, how they can get in touch
with you.
Yeah.
The best way is our website,Garlock, G A R L O C K.
A N D McKinney, M C K I N N E Ydot com.
You can read a little bit aboutme, read a little bit about the
practice areas, my law partner,and then just on my bio it says
(37:52):
send Mariah a message, you justsend me a message.
And I will get in touch with youor someone at our office will.
What about social media?
Are you on social media at all?
Yeah, we have a Facebook page.
I, you know, people can messageme from Facebook.
You can just look me up.
I don't care if you message methrough my personal page.
I use it pretty much only forbusiness anyways.
Anyway someone wants to try toget in touch with me.
(38:14):
I will respond.
Okay, so insiders, you know thatyou can go to our show notes
where we'll have the websitelink for you along with any
links to Mariah's socials.
So thank you, Mariah, forjoining us today and telling us
all about Garlock and McKinney.
And it was a pleasure chattingwith you and getting to know
you.
I think you're awesome.
And Marlon, you did great.
(38:35):
I love having you as a host forTopsill Insider and I'm really
looking forward to having you doa lot more interviews for us.
Thank you.
Same here.
I'm, I'm excited about it.
Hey, if you enjoyed today'sepisode of Topsail Insider,
please show your support byclicking the follow or subscribe
button on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
You can also follow us onFacebook, Instagram, Twitter,
(38:58):
and YouTube.
Please also go totopsailinsider.Com and join our
mailing list by clicking on theMake Me a Topsail Insider
button.
While you're there, you canclick the send me a voicemail
button and let me know exactlywhat you're thinking.
Your message just might be on anepisode of Topsail Insider.
You can email me at Christa atTopsillInsider.
(39:18):
com or call or text me at 910800 0111.
Thank you for listening andsupporting Topsill Insider and
our local businesses andnonprofits.
These are our neighbors and ourfriends and together we build a
mighty and a beautiful communityI'm super proud to be a part of.
I'll see you around Topsail.
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