Investigating the UNKNOWN: Former Acting Director of AARO- Tim Phillips

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Did you hear the claims that Jim Mkatski did make
about breach the whole of an unknown craft that did
not originate from here. He was running the offset program.
Have you heard that claim?

Speaker 2 (00:17):
We've heard claims a lot of that was compressed in
value move.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
There was a person he came to Arrow with a story.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
We had a referral when I was the acting director
chairman of one of the oversight committees, asked us to
meet with an individual that claimed to have reported to
us a UAP partner or that was so shooken up
so experience that she resigned from the program.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
He was asked to deliver doctor.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Photographs at the Nevada test site, what a lot of
the public refers to.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
As various fifty one.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
We know that the Soviet Union in the Cold War
came up UFO Storia to try to undermine Americans confidence
in their government's ability to protect them and tell them
the truth about aliens.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
And I had.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Mentioned that the black triangles, because we've known it's a
proven engineering design. It helps you know the fly and
we'll move from these triangles the flying wings. Unexplained that
the true UAP cases.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
Which I mean I agree with you. About two percent
of our cases.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
It's very, very small, but we can confirm they're there
and we don't know what they are.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Welcome back to Total Disclosure. My name's Ty and I'm
your host and creator. We're pulling back the curtains on
one of the most secretive programs inside the US government,
the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, better known as ARROW.
My guest today is Timothy Phillips. He was the former
acting director of ARROW, the man who stepped inder doctor

(02:14):
Sean Kirkpatrick or some col um doctor evil after his departure.
In this exclusive conversation, Tim and I dive into what
ARROW really does, how he got involved in the explosive
allegations that came with extortion of the program, potentially into
internal pressure within the office itself on how to do
this stuff and go public with it. If you're ready
to hear from someone who's been on the inside, someone

(02:36):
who's seen the data, the politics, and the truth behind
the headlines, you're in the right place. Hit subscribe, turn
on notifications, and if you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify,
drop that five star review, because what we're about to
hear you won't find anywhere else I'm asking the harder questions.
We're talking about UFOs and nukes and how the fiery
orbs and black giangle craft are among the most anomalists

(02:57):
and Aro doesn't know what those are, which contradicts what
the Wall Street Journal put out. Now, Tim does try
to talk about this hazing ritual that the Wall Street
Journal also talked about, and I did challenge him pretty
hard on that. And when it comes to using specific
language like aliens and not little gray men but for
lack of a better term, instead of non human intelligence,
is that a way of lying biomission these are tactics

(03:19):
that they would have to be used. He even mentions
that there are things that Arrow did and this doing
that won't be unclassified for seventy five years. So we
had a lot to discuss in this part one interview.
Next time he'll be in studio. I really hope you
enjoy it. I'm super excited I'll see you on the
other side.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
This is total disclosure, a right welcome back.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
As I said in the intro, we are joined today
by Timothy Philip. Welcome. I'm so happy to have you here.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Tim, It's great to be today.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
I listen. I think and I and I've I've interviewed
lots of people, lots of you know, And I'm not
like like show voting or trying to like, you know,
blow smoke up my own ass. But I've interviewed, like,
you know, my fair share of big hitters, and nothing
has gotten the anticipation and the people in the community

(04:24):
as riled up as doing this interview. I don't know
what it is about you, but people, Uh, people are
paying attention to people are paying attention. So I wanted
to start off the conversation and listen, we talked about
this in a in a pre phone call. So I

(04:45):
just because so many people have talked about it, and
so many people have put out these clips about these things,
I'm not gonna start anyway. I want to start the
way I always wanted to start. And Uh, if you
can introduce your self to my audience, to the people
who may have not heard you on shows I think
you did on the Green Street, which we will touch

(05:08):
on with Micwest, which you will touch on. We don't
have to get too far into it, but can you
tell me, I mean, who is Tim Phillips.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
I'm a retired government bureaucrat now, but.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
I kid from an Air Force family, son of an airman,
grew up Europe and Asia, and my dad retired from
the Air Force team seventy three.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
Tucson, Arizona, where I attended my last year of you know,
started my college career at the University of Arizona. Joined
the Marine Corps.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
Been about two years as a Marine, travel all over
the world. Nine to eleven happened still in uniform, I
had decided to retire a lot of the rules change
concerning transitioning from active military to civil service. They needed

(06:10):
people with qualifications and current accesses and clearances, and.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
One day I was a lieutenant colonel.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
On the next day I was the GS fifteen Division chief,
working at the time at the Defense Information Systems Agency.
And then shortly after I put my hand in the
air and swore in I would, I was asked if
I would volunteer for an assignment.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
And I asked them what it was, and they told
me they couldn't tell me.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
So I went to the Pentagon and found out that
I'd be invading a rock again in two thousand and three.
So that was the introduction to the intelligence community. I
was with DES for about four years and then when
they were standing up the office, the Director of National
Intelligence had worked with the staff of Ambassador MEGAPANI there

(07:05):
and Baghdad. I became part of the OD and I
as they were standing up, and had almost a twenty
three year career as a senior National Intelligence Service executive
and a senior Intelligence Service officer, so I got to
work with our servant CIA. I was at DIA, the

(07:28):
National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, So I had a pretty diverse career,
and probably the most bizarre assignment I ever had is
when my boss at the time, Lieutenant General Cruise, walked among.
My last assignment and government service was the deputy and

(07:51):
then serving as the acting director of ERROW, which was
probably the most fascinating assignment during my forty five year career.
I knew absolutely nothing about the UFO UAP world. I
knew a lot about technical collection, national security, you know,

(08:12):
I was very very aware of that. Did a lot
of deployments down range in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I
used to work in an war zone. But I had
never been part of a large investigative team looking at
anomalies and the maritime, air and space domain.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
So learned a lot about it worked with some amazing people.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Never had the scrutiny that we enjoyed reporting back to
twelve different committees, committees both the Senate and House.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Side, never had anything like that before.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
And we kind of had a We had two bosses,
the deputy you know with the Deputy Secretary of Defense
and then working for the principal Director of National Intelligence,
and often the Director of National Intelligence would be there
and when we went back and briefed them on our
developments or investigations. So work.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Let me ask you, Let me ask you a question.
So were you aware of when were you as being
around not around the topic, but just being in the
military and being up to speed on things. Did you
I mean, before you were ever asked to be a

(09:37):
part of Arrow, had you ever thought about UFOs? Had
you ever, you know, thought about them in a more
serious capacity, maybe even after the twenty seventeen New York
Times article and the you know pentagon and the confirming
you know all but confirming that there are unidentified had

(10:00):
it ever peaud your interest as just a general person beforehand.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
Not so much the uf or UAP issue.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Remember, I was working counter terrorism and dealing with counter
proliferation of nuclear weapons, so I had a pretty defined
problem set that I was working. We did have a
couple of cases downrange, working in Afghanistan where we became
aware of the danger of UASS. So we were able

(10:29):
to find some moranean systems that had crashed outside some
of our facilities in Afghanistan and we realized that we
were being surveilled. They're using them for ISR, not strike
at the time, but we realized how easy it would
have been to weaponize these things and how vulnerable we were.
The fact that these things had been flying against our

(10:52):
basis for months at a time and we were unable
to detect them. So kind of aware of having situational
awareness domain was very, very important. And then I've got
three years at sea, flew a little bit and I
wasn't an aviator as always a grant officer, so you

(11:13):
would see things you couldn't understand, you know, I couldn't
identify what they were. But since there was never any
aggression towards us, it's really never really thought about it.

Speaker 5 (11:26):
I had enemies who wanted to kill us I had
to worry about, so I wasn't about u A, you know,
UAP or UFOs during my time in the service or
the intelligence community before I served.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
With ARA interesting, you know, because you know, I find
that a lot of people and I asked that for
obviously specific reason. I'm trying to set your character up
as someone who is you know, and how would you
if if I were to ask you before you took
the job an arrow your thoughts on and and I'd

(12:02):
like you to be as honest as possible. If I
were to ask you before you ever heard of arrow,
before you ever step foot in any investigation capacity, if
I were to ask you, are we alone in the universe?
What would I mean? What would your answer be? Would
it be yes or no?

Speaker 3 (12:19):
I would know.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
I have never had any you know, personal experience myself.
I know there's credible people that have experienced things they
couldn't understand and their their assessment was with some type
of supernatural event.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
But to that.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
It never bothered me. I honored I knew these people professionally,
they saw things they didn't understand. And during my generation,
to report a UFO incident that could be queer ending.
If you're flying and you reported something, the next thing

(13:04):
you know, you're talking to the shrink. You're talking to
the surgeon and you could be losing you know, your
your tickets to fly.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Right, you'd be flying a desk for the rest of
your career exactly.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
My father flew. And that's just not something they discussed.
They saw something they didn't understand, they kept it to
themselves unless it was a threat, right, And I would
say that's one of the great things we tried to
do with the Office to remove that stigma, and that
encourage military and intel personnel to report what they saw.

(13:37):
We're not going to understand it unless people are free
to report, you know, their experiences and working with DAFT
J three and actually you know, getting directives out there
to the Apartment of Fense saying if you have, you know,
u a p u FO incident, you will report it.
And more just as importantly, you're going to restain you know,

(13:57):
retain data.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
You know.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
Part of the frustrating aspect of this job as we
were looking back at cases twenty twenty five years old,
the fact that there was no direction to the force
actually to preserve data. So it was very frust used
to go back and understand the cases. And of course
our scientists want to work with the original data set.

(14:23):
You know the zero ones and you know, apply tools
to try to extract you know, some type of intelligence
from what we were seeing. Right, So that was probably
the biggest change, is the fact that you remove the
stigma there was you know, there was actually a directive
to report, and the fact that you could report these

(14:45):
things without your credibility or sanity being questioned or you know,
risk losing access or a security clearance. That was a
that was a sea change in the government. Didn't happened before, right.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
Right, And this is you know, and then Congress has mandated,
you know, Congress mandates the Arrow Office, and things are
changing in the world, and I think, you know, the
UFO community, on one hand, you know, we're really spoiled

(15:22):
in that way that you know, twenty years ago, any
one of these hearings, any one of these offices being
established like Arrow, you know, aside from maybe you know,
post Project Blue Book, of course, but you know this,
it would be it would be the only thing talked

(15:44):
about for years and years. And now it's you know,
things are happening every day, and a lot you know,
I know people don't think that Arrow does a lot,
but you know, part of why we're here is to
explain that you know there is or to to find out,
like should should ARROW continue to be funded? And so

(16:06):
when did so? When were you asked to be a
part of Arrow? And why?

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Going back we've been with the fall of twenty three
is when.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
I was actually asked to be part of ARROW. So
I think I got there in October of twenty twenty
three is when I showed up as the deputy and
then Sean left the government in December of twenty twenty three,

(16:46):
and then I became the acting Well maybe we've been
the following year twenty four, because say it's twenty five, Yeah,
it would have been. I was there about eighteen months,
so it would have been all of twenty four and
it started in October twenty three working with Sean.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
So why do you think they asked you to be
a part of that.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
They wanted a career intel officer that was absolutely neutral
on the subject. I knew nothing about it. However, I
was the former director of Technical Collection and OD and
I I had worked a number of.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
Sensitive reconnaissance operations.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
I maintained the book for it to the SRO program.
I was an expert with a lot of both airborne
and overhead.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
National technical means.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
I knew a lot about collection and orchestrating collection, working
with other INTEL collectors, working with foreigners, and as I
talked to Sean about the possibility of working there, I
saw as a hard problem, kind of fascinating wonder if
you were to take all the elements of national you know, power,

(18:06):
are capabilities to kind of understand this phenomenon. There has
never been an organization that the government has established to
actually investigate UAPs similar to ERROW. You know, if you
go back at Project Bluebook and the derivatives after that,
they never had They never worked at the cabinet level,

(18:29):
They never had access to information any classification level the
way ERROW had. They never had the authority to go
out and have joint duty assignments and be able to
recruit some of the best and brighters from throughout the government.
Arrow had people come to us from NASA, DHF, FBI,

(18:52):
all of the o D, all of the intelligence community.
At one time we had four senior executives on the
staff at ARROW. We had a lot of horsepower, we
had a lot of expertise, We had an amazing, amazing budget,
the very very well resourced and probably most important importantly,

(19:14):
we had the support of the most senior members of
the Department Offense and the inteligence community. So when I
would go in and brief the Director of National Intelligence
or the Deputy Secretary of Defense, I would always be asked, Hey,
is there anything we can do for you?

Speaker 3 (19:33):
Is there anybody not cooperating?

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Just unprecedented support and access to any program. You know,
at one time we were investigating claims of over forty
special access and controlled access programs allegedly dealing with the
recovery or the exploitation of.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
UFO materials or uap.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Okay e t that those are the claims that we
were We had UH supporting investigations with both the Department
Defense i G and the i C i G. We
had a secure reporting mechanism were current and former government

(20:24):
employees or our contractors could contact us securely. We would
maintain their.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
UH anonymity absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
We'd give them a random number and we would protect
their identities. And that's when I first realized that, you know,
there were there were Americans that were scared to death
to talk to us.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
They were very concerned about being harmed.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
I mean, I think that brings up a really good segue.
And because and and and I I think if all
of this was just light in the sky, I don't
think people would be scared for their life to come

(21:13):
forward and to want to, you know, gain nothing from it.
I mean some of the people that like you said
that you had come to you, that they literally they
feared for their life. Now I know that we I
think most people in the UFO community, if they're smart, right,
if they're up to speed, we know that ninety five

(21:36):
percent of what seen can be prosaically explained. There is
a five percent margin, and if I'm being very generous,
two percent of that is really anomalous in my in
statistical means, that is a very small percentage. So you know,
arrows it seems what arrow is is at least mandated

(21:59):
to do. Or the idea and the mission was to
sift through all the data and find that two percent
and the people that are coming to you that are
fearing for their lives. I mean, it's got to make
this pretty real, right, Well, it was.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
Real to them what we got from these individuals and
be able to align that with hard evidence and data
that we can scientifically examined to understand the phenomena. Really
wasn't there a lot of these people who came in
with these amazing claims that the government had recovered and

(22:40):
were reverse engineering or exploit exploiting alien technologies. We never
could find any hard evidence to back any of that up.
There were a lot of drives.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Can I ask you something sure when you say alien,
this is something that arrow does and this is something
I do want cleared up for myself. When you say alien,
and when Arrows reports say extraterrestrial, why be so.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
We would refer to material sentient beings from a planet
other than ours extraterrestrial using that that term.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
But wouldn't that so? But if you say you found
evidence of ultra terrestrial something that that had been here
for you know, somehow is been developing alongside us, and somehow,
you know, is of avoiding us. Like and I'm just
I'm really asking this as a question, and I I

(23:48):
if something you know, to suspend a little belief here
to walk with me. You know, if something had been
here and maybe is now what people see as UFOs
and it had been here the whole time, I mean
by definition that would not be extraterrestrial. So what I
mean is why be so specific because some people think

(24:09):
that is Arrow trying to pin it on aliens in
green men and then not address the fact that you know,
angels and demons are non human intelligence. They're not aliens,
but they're by definition non human intelligence, and I think
that's what we should be looking for, not aliens, because

(24:29):
that's specific.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
Okay, I see your point. We had no evidence of.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
Anything that we recovered or was given to us that
we examined to come from any other planet.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Than our own.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
The technologies that we did examine, the phenomenons that we
did observe, were designed and operated by human beings. One
of the things that was I think frustrated a lot
of people didn't understand what was the value of ERROW.
Errow produced quite a bit of new understanding of foreign

(25:19):
technologies and new capabilities.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
So two of Arrow's missions that were not widely known.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Was technological and operational surprise. ERROW would pick up we
would have the services of the intelligence community using their
operational platforms or ISR systems, would pick up a signature
that didn't correspond with something known. So we would have

(25:45):
a partial signature of a system that did not correspond with,
say the enemy order battle capability. We didn't know what
this was, so it would be reported to as a
UAP and then we would throw a lot of science,
a lot of sensors. We would put together some integrated

(26:07):
collection plans trying to find exactly what is that, and
then working with the community, try to put together the
pieces to understand the puzzle. And there was and there
was intelligence reporting, Okay, that originally started off as a

(26:27):
UAP incident report. So we would have an F thirty
five platform would pick up an unusual signature of something
we didn't understand, and then Errow, working with the community,
would go after it, and then we would able to
produce new understanding of say a new or emerging foreign

(26:53):
you know, aircraft capability that we just observed for the
first time. Errol did a lot of that. Now that's
going to be classified reporting, the public's never going to
see it, and that was one of the frustrating things.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
People are saying, what does zero do?

Speaker 2 (27:08):
Erol did quite a bit, but you're not going to
be able to see it declassified for seventy five years,
so it's going to take a while for that to
get out there. But we did work very very closely
with the service Intelligence Lab, so we would work on
the National Air and Space Intelligence Center or the National

(27:31):
Space Intelligence Center. We would get reports and we look
at it and the first thing that we would do
is is there any other system that may have detected
that incident? So we would start in space. Can we
do a lot of space surveillance?

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Can we establish a track? Did anything de orbit? Was
there any data that we could get from web radar? Okay,
from air traffic control, radar, surveillance, radar, biostatic, you know, processing,
So we can So there's an incident. Now we have

(28:15):
hard data that can prove the exist and now we've
got a heading, we've got a speed, we've got an altitude.
So now we can build a track. And now we
haven't observed of what happened. Where then can we take
those facts and kind of have an understanding of what
the incident was. Errol did a lot of that, and

(28:39):
most of the data that we needed was available. We
just never had the network or the tools to be able,
you know, to exploit it. So we're talking large data.
You needed to have an architecture fast enough and large
enough to take this data and you aggregate the data
so now the data is going to be at a

(28:59):
higher classification level than any individual data stream to kind
of understand and build that common operational picture. So you
can say, yeah, okay, that incident corresponds with that track
what is it?

Speaker 1 (29:15):
And and I totally understand why ARROW in all of
the ways that you just described doing that actual legwork
is actually is really valuable. However, I can't help but
hear a natural flaw in the process because if you

(29:38):
had and and and forgive you know, not forgive me,
but forgive me if I if I don't say the
right words, because all the acronyms are they're sometimes a
little bit confusing when you're trying to jumple them all.
But you guys had title is it Title fifteen and title.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
Intelligence, Title ten is Department Offense, that's military, okay, okay.
And then you would have legal authorities from law enforcement
through the FBI or DS Title eighteen, Title fourteen, So
we would work together in a task force. There would

(30:22):
be an incident, and you would bring in officers from
these other agencies. They would bring their authorities. ARROW would
would be the aggregated think of AARROW as taking all
these legal authorities inc but we have permission to work
with everybody in their data and we could produce a

(30:42):
common operational pitchers to kind of layout this is our
understanding of what is going on, and then from that,
if it's domestic DHS, FBI, local tribal, they could respond
operationally got it.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
So that was kind of the work that ARROW did.
Primarily when we would have.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
State, local tribal dhs, they would pick up things that
they thought were UAPs, But as we got in and
started to examine the cases, we realized there were uass
So we started actually developing and researching a lot of
counter UAS systems that were kind of that short range

(31:32):
detection system. There's a lot of great systems out there
that we would incorporate with our answer grids and our
active sensors, so we would have passive and active emitters.
So we would go into an area where we had
a UAP incident and then we would try to capture
it in near real time to understand what was going on.

(31:53):
And since ERO is a DoD organization okay, partnering with
the intelligence community, we were looking at it from a
national security perspective. So we have detected some airborne system
operating and restricted airspace. Okay, why is it there, who's
operating it? And what are their interests? That was a

(32:17):
great concern to us, because, as you can imagine, there's
a lot of sensitive sites that our country wants.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
Which I will want to get to. But so what
I what I meant by all that was now say Arrow,
and again here here we go down down a little
bit of the rabbit hole. Okay, say I'm Arrow as
an entity, and I come across because I have the clearance,

(32:46):
I come across a unacknowledged special access program, something that's
deep black, deep covert, right, and I learn about something,
And I mean, i'd like to have you probably address this.
But even guys like Jim Lakatski have claimed that OSAPP

(33:07):
breached the whole of a UFO. And I'm sure Green
Street had brought that part up to you, But if
they had, if you had come across something that was
deep dark, and and you've already said it, some of
the stuff that Arrow's done, we're not going to hear
about seventy five years. So how do we know that
you didn't find anything? And it's not just I mean,
wouldn't you be required by law by your oath and

(33:31):
by your duty to lie to me like and lie
to and and I'm saying this really honestly, and and
and in the most sincere way, Like, wouldn't it be
your duty to tell me that you didn't find it
for operational reasons?

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Well, ERROL never was a originating classification authority, so we
didn't have a classification, but we provided guidance on how
to classify UAP related topics. So the fact that a

(34:10):
UAP exists or was detected wasn't necessarily classified or sensitive. However,
if that incident occurred in restricted airspace or acknowledge some
type of failure in a surveillance or a defensive system

(34:30):
to protect that restricted or protected site, that would be
a little bit sensitive. If ERROL had actually found a
system that was not man made, and you know, we
came across a you know, a crash site or you know,

(34:53):
remains or some hard evidence that there was something an
advanced capability or system that was not you know, engineered,
manufactured and operated by humans. The fact that that existed,
we actually talked with Public Affairs and thought that would
well go well beyond the authority of the Aero Director

(35:15):
and there'd be a lot of coordination with the executive
and the White House on how they wanted to share
that with the American people. That probably wouldn't be the
director of VERO sharing the fact that we found remnants
of a spacecraft that we couldn't identify with attributes of

(35:36):
new technologies and capabilities that were not human made. If
that happened, and it did not happen, we would probably
kick that up to the White House and let them
share that information.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
But you see my conundrum here, right, You do see
my conundrum here, Probably I do.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
But part of the the task that Aarrow had from
Congressional oversight, they were looking and as as federal officers,
you know, we we had gun carrying law you know,
federal law enforcement officers on our staff.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
So if we found evidence of a crime, if we found.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
A program that was being concealed from overside where they
were using you know, federal funds without authority, that's a crime.
And Congress was very very sensitive to that, and we
actually had you know, a hotline. We had a way

(36:40):
that people could call in their belief that there was
a undeclared sapper cap that was being concealed from oversight,
and we aggressively researched those and investigated those cases.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
And we did it in parallel with.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
IG with both the Department Offense and with the intelligence community.
We would weekly meetings where we would say this is
what we heard from the witness and we would go
back and forth, you know, without comper minding our you know,
our ability to honor NBA's and they're and agreements we

(37:22):
had with witnesses. We would always protect those making protected disclosures.
But there was a lot of coordination and there were
plenty of JAG officers and attorneys with an Apartment of
Justice to give us legal guidance on how to pursue
these cases.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
Great, which is great, and that kind of brings me
to a point here which I think is good. Uh
it is now Uh With that being said, what what?
And I want to wrap this in a bit ribbon here.
Did you hear the claims that Jim mccatsky did make

(38:03):
about preaching the whole of a craft of a of
an unknown What he said, and this is again this
is verbatim, breached the whole of a of an unknown
craft that did not originate from here, and he was
running the offset program. Have you heard that claim?

Speaker 3 (38:24):
We've heard claims.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
A lot of that was addressed and volume on of
the historical report, which we did in a very compressive
amount of time.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Of course, Oh yeah, we got it.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
I'm sure there's an ademdum to it. With some new
findings on that report after Sean left and some of
the fallow up investigations that we had, and new claims
that were brought in, new interviews, new referrals from Congress
and the IG. We continue to research these claims because

(38:56):
it was of interest both to the Cabinet Secretary and
to the oversight officials and the committees that we worked
with up on the hill. But we never, even when
we had materials delivered or claims that these materials came
from a non human craft or system. In every case

(39:19):
where we had independent labs verify the you know, the
identity of the materials, we never discovered or were able
to validate any claim that that material came from a craft,
not you know, a non human craft that did not
happen during my time in era. And we spent millions

(39:41):
of dollars doing these analysis of these materials.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
Okay, I'm getting I was muted.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
I was muted. That was my fault. I wanted to
give you the floor. So with that, with that being said,
so with materials, I find that to be very interesting
because obviously guys like doctor Gary Nolan are saying different things.
You know him at Stanford. What he's saying is they've

(40:20):
come across any materials that the isotopic ratios don't match
anything on Earth and they're atomically layered. Were you guys
given any of those materials to also analyze and come
up with maybe, you know, any collaboration with that effort.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
We didn't work with him. The labs that we used
to do the material analysis were basically the old Manhattan programs,
the Department of Energy Labs San Dia, Oakridge, we worked with.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Do you think do you think is it possible? Is
it I mean, I'm I'm and I'm really genuinely curious.
Is it possible that there are there are metals or
parts out there, uh, that people do have that may

(41:20):
still be anomaloust.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Nothing that was ever shared, There was no materials that
was ever shared with Marrow that have any unusual characteristics.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
Everything now we looked at came from this planet.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
Okay, okay, and that's fair enough. I definitely think you know,
you guys should run down I mean because because Gary Nolan,
I'm pretty sure, uh is it works with the CIA,
and or at least has worked with the CIA. So
I'd be I'd be interested to find out why a
guy like that would make claims like that, knowing and

(41:59):
and and that had there's there's other stories.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
U a p UFO crash. Parts wanted to come to
Aryon and say, hey, this is the pedigree. One of
the one of the challenges we had when people had
parts is we would go back and almost like it
was evidence using a trial, so you know, proper custody
and document who possessed it.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
You know, how was it controlled.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
And It's funny as you were getting closer to the
the actual incident where the material was collected, a lot
of that, you know, the details seemed to be lost.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
You know.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
We we had materials were sitting on a warehouse in
a shell for the last forty years. But as we
try to get back to where that matuial was collected,
the trail would go cold. And we did have people
that contacted er. We actually had citizens that went to
their congressional representative and they wanted er to validate the

(43:10):
fact that they actually had a UFO crash card. So
I want to go on the road, and they wanted
that seal of approval from RYW. You know, we're not
in the business help people make money. However, if there
was an entity that had worked with a part of
the US government and they claimed they had material that

(43:32):
was part of some type of UAP or UFO incident,
Ero would love to help them go back and actually
identify the material.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
We can do that. We have an active program.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
We've invested millions of dollars in equipment and clean rooms
and procedures where we could take custody of a piece
of material, do a double blind study, have different teams
work on different you know, parts of a you know,
a piece of material and come up independently with what

(44:08):
they thought it was.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
And we love that.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
And but every time that that was done, the materials
came from this sort.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
Of okay, and and that's and that's fair enough. I
want to I want to you know, speaking of parts
and evidence. Uh, there there was this claim made and
people have asked me to and we talked, like I said,
we talked about this on the phone and you you

(44:41):
had just brought up that's you know, Arrow try or
someone tried to get Arrow's seal of approval. There was
another claim made that there was a person and he
now goes by whistling mic on on X I believe,
and he's made some claims, and Burlison has said he's

(45:03):
an interesting person and he's a defense contractor who's trying
to get contracts with the US government and he came
to Arrow with a story. And what you say is
that there was an attempt at extortion. Can you address

(45:23):
this and clear this up what happened there?

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Well, Errol doesn't comment on people that come to them
with UAP incident claims. We protect their identities, but what if.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
They blow their identity.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
Well, that's up to them.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
We've had we had a referral when I was the
acting director chairman of one of the oversight committees asked
us to meet with an individual that claimed to have
reported to US a UAP part. When we actually met
with this individual, what we realized is the claim was

(46:03):
that he recovered a part that fell from an advanced
US Dealth aircraft. So the part that he recovered was
actually a piece of government property.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
This individual came up with a new.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Manufacturing process to duplicate the part, wanted, found a or
developed a procedure to be able to detect these advanced aircraft.
At one point there was a claim that wanted us
to purchase the part or there was going to sell

(46:45):
it to another foreign entity, such as the Chinese. To US,
that sounded like it stortion, and that's how we treated it,
and we referred it off to the FBI. But that
was kind of the end of that. The fact that
someone recovered apart from America raft, that right there means
it's not it's not an arrows mission set.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
Aero investigates u A P right, if it's a US
advanced aircraft, has nothing to do with you, ap.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
Okay, So there, there's so what And we don't have
to talk about any We don't have to infer anyone.
So what what the What the scenario was was there
was a person who claimed to have a part. You
discovered that it was from a next gen fighter, but
it already been They claim.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
It was from an advanced concept.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Oh gotcha, gotchat.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
The individual had some images, never shared any of those
videos with us. We we'd asked for them we did
from the the chairman, we did get a still image
of a aircraft and advanced allegedly it was advanced stealth
you know, aircraft that was in development. Congress was concerned

(48:10):
that there's been some type of compromise and that these
images of this aircraft that got out into the public.
Was very concerned about a leak. That's one reason I
was asked to go out to the Nevada Test Range
to actually meet with the program managers that were developing
the sixth generation aircraft out there, and I did that.

(48:38):
We analyzed the image and the image looked like a
promotion video that had come from an aircraft manufacturer. It
kind of looked like an F one seventeen on steroids.
The vast majority of our aerospace engineers thought it was,

(49:01):
you know, a photoshop version of something that was in
a promotional video. And that's what we reported back to
the Hill. And again, it wasn't a UAP, it was
a stealth aircraft. So it really wasn't in our lane.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
So so did this person ever even make it to
a skiff?

Speaker 3 (49:24):
Yes, to talk to us?

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Okay, So there so there was a meeting and a
skiff with that individual and then it was referred to
federal law enforcement because there was a concern by Congress
that there was a breed somewhere in that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
No, No, the concern was an extortion attempt. The other
concerned Congress had it they could have had a compromise
and you yeah, an individual with a you know, an
image of an advanced concept aircraft, right, that was the concern.
But again that's really not Arrow's mission set. We'll turn

(50:02):
that over to you know, a d o DC will
let them work that.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Yes, totally totally understandable. And you know, I think that
you know, that just goes to say uh or it
goes to show at least how many So it does
show that ARROW is working really and intently uh with

(50:27):
other agencies. So you guys are cooperating and have in
law enforcement that is working with you. That that that
you you're able to refer these things too.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
Well.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
Absolutely, as a you know, as a country, we really
really have to federate and work with state, local tribal
authorities to understand the phenomena. We looked if we were
working with North kom because one of the things that
we were working that we were developing was a UAP

(50:59):
record plan as you can imagine.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Oh, an actual recovery plan.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
Because I was asked when early on members of Congress,
a committee chairman came to me and wanted to see
the plan. And I was pretty new to this business
and Sean had left, so I had gone back and asked,
do we have is there a UAP recovery plan?

Speaker 3 (51:23):
Can someone show something to me?

Speaker 2 (51:25):
So there was some things we found that they thought
were part of the majestic program and the a was
it was fake. But we had actually working with d
O D in the Northern Command actually to put together
an actual recovery plan. Is as you know, you know,

(51:46):
we do have organizations that recover you know, fallen satellites
or objects from space as things re entry into our atmosphere.
Often they have had are just fuels or payloads and
it could be dangerous. So we have doo D teams

(52:07):
on standby actually to fly out and work with state, local,
tribal authorities to help clean these things up.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
We do that, but.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
This could also I mean, is it safe to say
that one of these protocols, if ever there was an
incident with a crashed legitimate UFO, that this one of
these recovery plans could be utilized in case of that

(52:37):
kind of scenario.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yeah, yes, because to agree that DoD does extremely well
is planned.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
Right, and that's what I think we've all assumed, you know, happened,
but you'd.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
Have a plan.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
So Errol was work with Northcomb to put together a plan,
and we realized the actual person you know, probability of
a UAP landing on federal property or a military base
is actually pretty small. It would actually land in the
farmer's field or in state property, and then you have

(53:15):
DoD providing support to domestic authorities. So that's why we
had partner with the Northern Command because that's what they do.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
They're a defense of the homeland.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
And that's another way that Errow kind of got into
the counter UAP or UAS mission.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
After the Langley incident.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
You're actually asked during the incident by the Joint Staff
J three if we could bring some of our sensors
and our scientists and help them recover and make tracks
so the law Enforcement pass Force could narrow down their
search area where they thought these uas is being launched from.

(53:58):
You know, what was the past and what were the
uas is interested in surveilling.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
So we had partnered.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
With MIT that were the British that helped invent radar
and World War two, and we were helping reconstruct, you know,
the forensic radar tracks, trying to make us make sense
of what happened down in Langley a couple of years ago,
and Aero developed and expertise. You know, we had our

(54:28):
Grimlin systems that we would put out. We do long
term surveillance of a fairly large area and of course
we're looking for UAPs, but we would detect uass So
what we want to do is have the ability to
pass that track to that local commander responsible for the
sense of the military installation, saying we've detected the uas

(54:51):
in real time and passing the information so they could
deal with it.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
That's not really our mission.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
In the same time, if they were to tech at
UAP they're looking for uas as when they find a craft,
they don't understand they know it's much larger in uas,
they passed that.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
Todds, I am.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
So jumping back in tim I I I was listening
to your interview and right at the end with Stephen
Green the Street, you started talking about black triangles and
the possibility that these so because Arrow, I mean Arrow

(55:36):
did find some interesting things and you made some interesting
comments about these triangles, and and let's be fair, Uh,
these black triangles have been seen for a long time,
a long long time by people. They've been reported the
famous nineteen ninety seven Phoenix lights incident. Uh, that was

(55:58):
a big you know, black triangle, if you will. There's
also been a lot of of of reports of even
up to this day, guys like Dylan Borland Uh just
sat in front of Congress uh and testified to the
fact that he and uh, you know, I'm just using

(56:18):
that as an example. Many other people have seen these triangles.
What what can you elaborate on on what you were
saying with Steven in that interview and why the black
triangles stand out you specifically.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Yeah, the delta wing or the triangle or shape wing
aircraft is the proven design. So he had asked me about,
you know what, what what bothered you?

Speaker 3 (56:45):
You know what what we concerned about?

Speaker 2 (56:47):
And I had mentioned that the black triangles because we
know it's a proven engineering design. It helps you know,
the fly and we'll move from triangles to flying wings.
You know, it actually has some inherent stealth characteristics.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
It minimizes to ratear cross section.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
I know that the first time I ever saw an
F one seventeen uh Yuma, you know, before I knew
what the hell they were, it looked like a flying
black triangle from the angle the aspect I had on
the ground. So when we detect force protection and security
personnel at very sensitive site, that's a national security issue

(57:32):
for me because we know that we have produced aircraft
in systems that look like black triangles.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
It works, and.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Our adversaries, you know, probably have as well. So when
we have UAP incidents and we get credible reporting that
it's a trianglar shaped aircraft, that's a.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
Huge concern to us. The other thing I had.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
Mentioned about is the corona or the plasma type discharge
from a airborne system. We thought maybe that could be
a form of stealth, using some kind to say a
force field, to provide that minimize or of that small

(58:20):
radar cross section, because that was another thing in the
unexplained the true UAP cases, which as and I agree
with you, it's about two percent of our cases. It's
very very small, but we can confirm they're there, we
can measure their speed and blossopy. We don't know what
they are and we're trying to do much better to

(58:43):
be able to detect and track these things. But those
are the two things, the two shapes that I was
concerned about, the triangular shape objects and then the fiery
shares speeds.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
As relate to us by the witnesses.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
And one of the things I do want to say
about the witnesses, we had some you know, early on
during the historical report, people are coming to us and
we wanted them to report on any reverse engineering, you know,
or alien spacecraft exploitation programs. And we had some pregnary contractors,

(59:24):
some dood personnel and talked about the amazing things that
they saw and we listened to their claims.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
Then we thanked them for.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
The patriotism, remind them of the lifelong obligation under the
non disclosure agreements they signed, and set them on their way,
and then we would have to start the investigation what
is this? And their descriptions were very, very accurate for
the most part. We would actually get the videos, so

(59:54):
we get the reports from what was being tested to
develop and we saw the videos. Now we can understand
the description. And there was one it was a spacecraft.
It was on a launch platform that was described as
an alien spaceship by a contractor. A support contractor was

(01:00:16):
lawfully present but not part of that test, so it
wasn't read into the program. But we looked at that
and you grew up, you know, looking at fine By,
you know sign you know science fiction movies, and you
saw this craft, you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
Would think it was an alien system. I think with Stephen,
I think it was getting pretty late and I said.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
It looked like an alien you know, desh ship or something.

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
But you look at it and you can understand.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
And we wanted that image in the sap CAP version
of the historical report. So we had a version of
that report which was about eighty five percent of it
which was public releaseable. Then there was a top secret
sci version of that report, and then primarily for the

(01:01:10):
Gag of eight, there was a.

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
Sap CAP version of that report that got into some
of these.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Systems that we really really wanted to protect where people
had assessed that they were part of some type of.

Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
You know, alien exploitation program that the government was running.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
Okay, we had about forty claims forty five claims that
we had to research And another thing that was unique
about the work we did when we would have an
incident and it was actually, you know, we we couldn't
cross reference it was something known a known air aircraft

(01:01:55):
or some type of events such as exactly, we couldn't
correlate it with that. Then we would have to do
Blue Force deconfliction. Then we would have to go out
into the R and D and they had the Research
and Development of Science and Technology world and say were

(01:02:15):
you all flying something or demonstrate in the system in
this area at that time? And you had to be
very very precise as you went back into that community
to ask them because they're not going to They're really
not going to give you anything, but you have to
be very descriptive and give them very precise days and

(01:02:36):
times places to get anything out of them, to kind
of understand what they were doing because they wanted to
compartmentalize and minimize exposure of these systems so they couldn't
be compromised. And we understood that, but what we need
to we needed to confirm that it wasn't one of
our blue systems that was detected.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
It was truly a UAP.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
This brings me to one of my biggest points to uh.
Tim And and you know, I again, I have so
much respect for you. You are a true patriot and
I sincerely, sincerely say that. But I've also worked with
other true patriots and I The Wall Street Journal published

(01:03:23):
an article and they claimed that the the Malmstrom uh
nuclear shutdowns uh were part of a directed e m P.
And I'm gonna go, I'll get this all out so
you can kind of we can just have a general
discussion about this because it ties into it, you know,

(01:03:44):
so the Malmstrom case being an e MP training of
some sort, and then you know, uh, but but Malmstrom
is not the only uh nuclear base that you know
dealt with these things?

Speaker 3 (01:03:59):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Why not?

Speaker 4 (01:04:01):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
And they what they're saying is this, the fiery spheres
are are are a very common thing, from Mario Woods
at Ellsworth to Lowering Air Force Base in Maine to
Langley to Malmstrom mine not Vandenberg nuclear witnesses have come forward.

(01:04:22):
And and when those guys come forward, and I know
some of them have testified to Arrow because they've been
open about it. We don't have to go into any names,
we don't have to go into any specifics. But these
guys I find to be at least of the most
concerning credible people. So when looking at that, how did

(01:04:46):
how did the Wall Street Journal come to that conclusion?
And people think that doctor Kirkpatrick was was giving information
to them about that, So I just want to kind
of clear that up because there's very conflicting reports.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
This now that was the fiery orbs was probably one
of the most intriguing, most concerning cases we had because
there seemed to be consistency and the visual, you know,
descriptions from various very credible security personnel at these nuclear

(01:05:26):
a lot of more nuclear weapon sites, not only here
but overseas as well, and their descriptions of what they
observed was very consistent. So I can see how the
Wall Street Journal would have a story on it because
they probably introduced some of the same witnesses we did.

(01:05:46):
And we have actually partnered with, you know, organizations in
the Apartment of Defense and Apartment of Energy to help
improve the technology to be able to detect and you know,
actually track these objects. In one case, at a very
very sensitive location, there was a ground security force that

(01:06:11):
actually followed one of these fiery orbs for you know,
I would say fifteen miles and the ORBS was hovering,
was moving slowly, a small car sized object in the air,
hovering above a road, and when a truck departed main

(01:06:34):
side was coming out on that range road, the system
actually got off the road and hovered and turned off
its NAB lights.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
There were red lights on the back of it that
the security personnel could see.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
Not sure what it is, but the fact that it
was following roads it attempted to evade detection, okay, and
then after the threat, after the truck had passed, it
got back on its merry way and headed back toward
the main test area.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
At this location, to me, it tells me that there
was a human in the loop.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
The concern was the distance from public access into the range,
So how was it being control and what was the
nature of that you know, that aroar or that that
discharge around the object.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
So you guys are saying that you don't know, We
don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
And we found that to be very very alarming.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
And the people who observed it and tracked it, and
then in one case there were two departments that had
detected it actually went from the range one range onto
another range and was detected by two or two independent organizations,
so it tells us something's there.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
I'm not sure what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
I think it's a an adversary capability or system, but
there's not.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
You're not ruling out say something else, because it's still on.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
We don't know what it is, and now it'd be
foolish to rule anything out. We need to understand it.
We need to be able to detect it, Bill Tracks
and the mediate it to deal with it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
Okay, have you have you heard this other narrative that's
going around in the Washington Street Washington Street Jesus Wall
Street Journal tried to say that there is a hazing
ritual that has been going on in special access programs.
You know, hazing recruits UH to these special access programs

(01:08:52):
telling them there are UFOs. But then you know, in
my these in my experience with hazing, you the hazer
becomes the hazy, becomes the hazer and they get let
in on the joke. Have you heard these claims and
did you guys hear anything similar.

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
We actually came across the program, we investigated it, We
passed it back to the d O, d I G
and the service IG to actually investigate it, and we
actually thought that that could be the origins of a
lot of these UFO stories where we had the time.

(01:09:36):
It was an Air Force Special Access Management Office, the
SAP GO office that had come up with a.

Speaker 3 (01:09:44):
False SAP.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
Originally they were going to use it for training purposes,
so they didn't want to use a real SAP, so
they came up with a fake SAP program.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
I actually saw it. It was beautiful, beautiful graphics.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
It didn't say anything about a UFO or UAP in it,
but you had the image was a classic nineteen fifty
flying saucer hovering in a lab being surrounded by technicians
and white lab coats, and it was an anti gravity
motor or device, and that was the SAP.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
It was used. It was created as a training program.
It went wild.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
It was probably in existence for over twenty twenty five years,
where you know, personnel assigned to the base Special Access
Program Management Office were read into were aware of this
program without knowing that it wasn't a real program. So

(01:10:55):
you probably had you know, thousand, possibly tens of thousands
of military personnel who were exposed to a false SAP
dealing with this anti gravity motor that came from you know,

(01:11:18):
another world, you know, exraterrestrial exploitation that we possessed, and
some people thought that that could be the basis for
all these allegations that the US government has had these
unacknowledged SATs and caps dealing with recovery and exploitation of

(01:11:42):
alien technologies or.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
Non human technologies. So I mean, but that we actually.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
Found that the program had morphed a bit, had got
out to a different combatant command, had gone off into
a different servous, so that we were aware of a
false SAT program that was in existence for twenty years.

(01:12:13):
We never really we knew it got back into the
nineteen eighties.

Speaker 1 (01:12:17):
You don't find that. A. That's ridiculous to try to
say that that would explain every UFO sighting, But B
that would also mean that anyone who was hazed, wouldn't
they have a pretty good wouldn't they have a pretty
good lawsuit against the the.

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
Progress It was it was a joke and then they
signed an NDA.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
So these are service members that were managing a SAP
office and they would have in their portfolio, they could
have hundreds of different SAPs that were in existence that
are operational at that base from facility, and they would
just read people in and read people out. They didn't

(01:13:00):
actually participate in those programs. They were just administering the
clearances then and then writing people off after they you know,
had no longer had a need to have access to
that program.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
I guess we'll we'll have to probably agree to disagree
on this because I find that to be I find
that to be really unethical to not let because what
if what if you got what if you got told
that there was UFOs and you see these amazing graphics
and then you live your life and no one no

(01:13:34):
one tells you, Like, isn't the best part of the
joke when they find out it's a joke. And now
we have one hundred thousand of these guys running around
thinking there's aliens out there and at any day the
world would you know, erupt into an intergalactic star wars
that would cause some psychological issues. Don't you take it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
Well that that was the concern of some cabinet officials.
They were how extensive, you know, was this hazing? How
many people were exposed to it? And it could be
could that be the basis for these claims? Your reaction
to discovering that this program existed was the same as

(01:14:14):
some you know Senny confirmed Cabinet officials when they were
briefed on the programs, they were actually concerned and angry
about it. And we had another we actually had another
I never could get the photos, but we had allegations that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:33):
They're at one of the test sites.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
They actually had a room, they had a gurney and
they had like a big rubber arm, like a you know,
a reptilian hand sticking out from underneath the white sheet
on a gurney. And there was a group of military
personnel going by and they haven't just a glance in
and see this, and then the staff rapidly went up

(01:14:58):
and shut the door and cut, you know, pull the
sheep back over the arm. And we heard in one
incident there was a young officer that was so shooken
up so in that of experience that she resigned from
the program.

Speaker 3 (01:15:18):
That was a claim.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
We also had a claim of a retired Air Force
flag officer that worked at one of the national test
sites where he was asked to deliver doctored photographs at
the Nevada test site what a lot of the public
refers to as Area fifty one's of traditional UFOs flying

(01:15:41):
over the test site and those photos, those images were
delivered to a bar to the east of the base.
There where a lot of the UFO observers and you know,
the people interested in this topic would go out to
eat and and you know discuss their experiences as they

(01:16:03):
observed the Nevada test site out there. So we've we've
got you know, witnesses that claim programs like that occurred.
We know that the Soviet Union in the Cold War
actually came up with UFO stories to try to undermine

(01:16:23):
Americans' confidence in their government's ability to protect them and
tell them the truth about aliens. There's been a lot
of disinformation when it came to UAP UFO, and that's
why I thought it was so brilliant to actually establish
an arrow office for the first time. He had an

(01:16:46):
organization with the horsepower working for the right people, with
a budget and the you know, the authority to work
across the US government that you know, to investigate these
claims and try to understand what's going on. And I
know there's a lot of frustration with the public that
you know, we didn't show them the Amian bodies or

(01:17:09):
the you know, the UFO crash site despite people who
have sworn under oath in Congress that you know they
have observed you know, you know, alien spaceships or non
earth you know, non human spaceships, and they found non
human remains.

Speaker 3 (01:17:30):
We looked for that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
We investigated virtually every credible claim we had. I know
that our investigators hosted congressional delegations wanting to go out
to Dayton, you know, going to write Patterson to personally
investigate the claims that there was some type of UFO

(01:17:54):
power source that was hidden underground at.

Speaker 3 (01:17:58):
The base there. We know that we've hosted.

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):
Investigators that wanted to go out to other ranges to
be able to investigate claims that were made under oath
the Congress. And we were part of that, and we
had authority to go anywhere to look. And I will
tell you during my tenure there, we never had anybody

(01:18:24):
attempt to block access to information or locations or materials.

Speaker 3 (01:18:30):
Why you know, I worked at Arrow. That never happened.

Speaker 1 (01:18:34):
So you're saying that no one and is it conceivable?

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):
Is it?

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):
Is it? At least community.

Speaker 1 (01:18:43):
A lot of people think you were fired from Narrow.
That doesn't seem to be the actual case.

Speaker 3 (01:18:49):
I wasn't fired from marrow.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
Right, And I wanted to clear correct. I know, I know,
but people online said that you were fired. They put
these graphics up. But you were also given one of
the highest service honors and like a huge, like nice commendation,

(01:19:12):
and it seems like it was just your time for
retirement and you and the d O D for lack
of a better term, split up. Now, can you clear
that up? Because people think people like to say that
you got fired.

Speaker 3 (01:19:26):
I want to make sure no, none at all.

Speaker 2 (01:19:30):
Errol worked with the under Secretary for Intelligence Security and
as a senior executive, we actually had to come up
with the criteria on how we would rack and stack,
how we would prioritize a new intelligence officer assigned to

(01:19:51):
the department of a sense. So we came up with
the criteria on how if we had to executed a
reduction in force, who we would fire first. So I
was part of the working group that came up with
the It was almost a matrix on how we would

(01:20:15):
rack and stack, how we would fire our officers who
were still on probation. So we would spend a lot
of time assessing recruiting training. They had a two year
probationary period. And I just thought that by doing that,
by you know, firing these junior officers that never really

(01:20:38):
had an opportunity to work in the community, that we
were consuming our feed stock. I had forty five years
as military and as a civil servant, and I had
already told the D and I that I was going
to retire when my tour was up, and my tour

(01:20:58):
era was going to be up in October of this year.
So when they came out with a deferred resonation program,
we did not know what the number was if you
were looking for an eight percent or ten percent reduction
in force. So I thought I had a full career
and I was willing to give up my feat so

(01:21:21):
a new officer that we had recruited and brought into
the intelligence community could serve.

Speaker 3 (01:21:28):
So that's what I did.

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):
And I had talked to John, and I didn't want
to leave him high and dry, but we had actually
gone out and solicited. We put out an advertisement, and
we were actually interviewing people as the new deputy. I
was actually recruiting my replacement the same way I recruited
you know, John to bring him in as the director.

(01:21:52):
We were actually you know, try and ensure we had continuity, and.

Speaker 3 (01:21:56):
That was the plan.

Speaker 2 (01:21:57):
But the delay that we had in getting the new
administration's political officers confirmed through the Senate flowed things down
to get you know, to have people come in and
approve and make the appointments as a deputy and they understand.
The officer that we had recruited replaced me got frustrated

(01:22:20):
and he took the DRP and he resigned. So I
was actually I took the resonation program and left Arrow
and April, so I had already left Arrow and then
later on in July. One of the programs that we
have when you're on the DRP all.

Speaker 3 (01:22:42):
The rules that you have to follow.

Speaker 2 (01:22:44):
As a title fifty Intel officers, You've got to report
foreign contacts. We've got to report our financial activities and
trains over a certain amount of money.

Speaker 3 (01:22:56):
You have to report if you have.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
You're publishing, you have to go through a published review
process to make sure that you're not revealing any sensitive.

Speaker 3 (01:23:10):
A classified information.

Speaker 2 (01:23:11):
And if you have contacts with the media, you have
to go up and you've got to ask permission to
do so. But to do those outsize activities, you have
to be in the system to get on and into
the database and say, hey, I've got this reporter that
wants to talk to me about this subject to get
permission to do so, you're outside of the system to

(01:23:34):
do that. That was one of the limitations about this DRP.
It's a very very weird thing because you're read out
of the programs. You're basically on terminal leave until thirty September.
When you were you know you would you would be
over and then you retire in one October. It's kind
of the plan. So I had made some interviews and

(01:23:57):
I thought I had followed the procedure. There was only
one one time where I was told not to proceed
in the interview with somebody, but I said something that
irritated somebody at the DNI, and then I got called
into the DNI. I had the counter intelligence and the
HR people pulled me in. Why I'm on leave. I

(01:24:17):
had already checked out, and I got a very nice
worded letter from the Director of National Intelligence tell me
that it was no longer in the interest of the
government for me to be employed with the Office of
the Director of National Intelligence.

Speaker 3 (01:24:33):
And I was terminated and then I was put on
the retired roles.

Speaker 1 (01:24:38):
So it's safe to say it was like an amicable
split up.

Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
They just decided that they no longer required my services
as a senior National Intelligence Service officer and they retired me.

Speaker 1 (01:24:54):
Yes, yeah, yeah, so pretty amicable because then you go
on and you're also given, uh, what was the the
medal you were given?

Speaker 3 (01:25:05):
Well, I actually got to this year. I got one.

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):
It was kind of like a civilian Achievement or Meritorious
Service medal. Henry Clinton got one. I got one, and
then I got the Secretary Defense Exceptional Service Medal. I

(01:25:31):
think I got two of them. One was civilian service
and one was as a d o D. I got
the highest ranking award they could give me.

Speaker 3 (01:25:39):
So yeah, I got that. So yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:43):
But it was the Department one of the Department Offense
that terminated me. I didn't work for the Department Offense.
I was on a joint duty assignment to the Apartment Offense.
I was an O d N I employed at the
time when the Director of National and Talent and gave

(01:26:04):
me the letter saying that my continued service was no
longer required.

Speaker 1 (01:26:10):
So if you could change. We have two more questions
and we'll wrap up on this on this part one,
we'll call it if you could change one thing about
how the Pentagon handles this topic specifically, what would that be?

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
I think the way John and the last time we
were up on the hill, and I believe that was
around March, we came out of the skiff and then
and what what what John is the director decided to do,
is just to go public and actually admit that there
were actual UAP cases that we didn't understand. Another thing

(01:26:51):
I think I would have done much earlier is solicit
or our attempt to come up with a crowd sourcing
UH reporting of UAP and incidents.

Speaker 3 (01:27:05):
These states have state fusion.

Speaker 2 (01:27:07):
Centers to kind of control state level response to incidents.
We thought state, local, tribal. They're normally the first responders
if they hear or see something, you know, how can
we how can we operationalize that and get that reporting

(01:27:29):
back to ERROW as fast as possible so AERO could respond.
We had people on standby that could deploy the same
day to try to understand an incident, to gather evidence
and maybe capture the phenomenon near real time. I would
have solicited the support of the American public sooner we've

(01:27:52):
been working on a public reporting mechanism, and with the
change and the trend of amid frustration and the transitions,
we had to have some forms approved by GSA, you know,
as part of how they would report to the government.
I would have loved to have that in place and

(01:28:15):
using some of the large data, some of the machine.

Speaker 3 (01:28:20):
Learning, the algorithms we developed to try to.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
Speed the detection the building attracts and the operational response
to UAP incidents. And we were working very very hard
to get that capability in place in partnership with an
all the government reports, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:28:44):
Response.

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
We found that Department of Homeland Security, especially CBP along
our country's borders, they have an amazing network of sensors
where they were willing to share us, share the feeds.
As we looked at the administration's desire to enhance air

(01:29:07):
defense and the cotton United States, you know about the
Golden Dome initiative, Well there's data there.

Speaker 3 (01:29:14):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
If I know they're looking at threats, they're looking at
cruise missiles, are looking at ballistic missiles uass. But if
we invest in that sensor technology, we're going to pick
up things that may not be threats, but it's information,
it's anomalies that aero needs to investigate so we can
have an understanding. There was a little bit of frustration

(01:29:37):
because we had a bias in our collection because we
tended to put censors out in defenses around things that
we wanted to protect.

Speaker 1 (01:29:48):
That include nuclear sites.

Speaker 3 (01:29:50):
Absolutely included lucra sites.

Speaker 2 (01:29:52):
But how do you know if we have a higher
number of incidents around nuclear when you don't know what's
going on over the cornfields of Nebraska. So one of
the things that we are actually researching was investing in
a series of unattended sensors. We were thinking of working

(01:30:14):
with Department as Interior and the Bureau of Land Management
where they have a series of towers. They're primarily looking
for fire detection and disasters at the national parks. But
if we could put out sensors staring up at the stars,
you have the networked you know, maybe we can detect
anomalies before the public sees them and start having a

(01:30:37):
more comprehensive understanding of what's going on because we don't
and I talk a lot about what's going on in
the air domain. That's where we had a lot of
sensor capability and understanding on in tools to be able
to exploit what's going on in the EO and IR.

Speaker 3 (01:31:01):
Oh, but we were working in space.

Speaker 2 (01:31:03):
We actually had a definition of what a UAP incident
was in space, and we were actually work gaming with
space Com and the Space Force, you know, trying to say,
how do we get UAP incidents that they detect in
space and at mission speed past those tracks to ERROW

(01:31:24):
so ERROW can apply some machine learning from AI, so
maybe we can detect things as they approach our solar system,
our planet and maybe re entry into the atmosphere. You know,
we wanted to kind of tie it together and do
it at operationally you know speed. It was frustrated to

(01:31:45):
be reactive or to go back and have to investigate
a USP case from twenty years ago when there's no data.
Another domain where frankly we didn't have a lot of
success were just starting was in the maritime environment. So
there were incidents that's in the maritime environment, but the

(01:32:07):
community is even more compartmentalized than they are in space,
and their primary concern was the sound of metal moving
through water.

Speaker 3 (01:32:18):
That's what they were.

Speaker 2 (01:32:18):
Focused on, and if it didn't really correspond, it wasn't
part of that threat.

Speaker 3 (01:32:25):
They didn't care.

Speaker 2 (01:32:26):
Well, we care, and we partnered a couple of times
with the Maritime Committee and help them. We actually had
worked with some cases with them, but we really didn't
have a good foothold there. We were most our success
tended to be in the air domain. We were starting

(01:32:46):
to build some partnerships and space, but we were the
all domain Anominate Resolution Office, and we were still addressing
the maritime domain. And when I separated and I went
into retirement, but there's a lot of work to be done.
Another thing that we thought was fascinating and had a
lot of potential. I talked a little about crowdsourcing. NASA

(01:33:09):
used to have these public competitions where they would have
a problem.

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
They would have non classified, nonsensitive.

Speaker 2 (01:33:17):
Data and kind of give a science problem to the
public and ask them, hey, you know, what can you
do to help us solve this. We would like to
do that with UAP cases, and I know the current
John was actually working on how do we do that?
And a lot of things got slowed down due to
the transition and the changing government, the fact that we

(01:33:40):
no longer had the politicals to report to and get
permission to execute from Hey, I'm actually on low battery
right now. We've been talking for about ninety minutes and
I'm going to have to get off or I'm going
to lose the signal. But I would love to do
this again, but I'll make sure on a computer next time,

(01:34:01):
or we're face to face to do this.

Speaker 1 (01:34:03):
Yeah, well real quickly. I just want to say thank
you for being a patriot. I know we have differing views,
and I know that there's much more to be to
be spoken about. You know, I know what I've seen,
and uh maybe you know we can help educate the
community on you know, what what UAPs really are and

(01:34:26):
how how to investigate them. And I really hope that
some people get something out of this and learn who
you really are, because you're you're you are a hard skeptic,
but I don't think you're opposed to the actual evidence
being shown. And if it shows that there is something
non human, I think you'd be Is it fair to
say you'd be at least open to it?

Speaker 3 (01:34:47):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:34:48):
Absolutely, Let the evidence speak for itself. We like diversity
of thob We don't want group think care, but show
us the evidence. If you make a you make an
amazing claim. You should have the evidence to back it
up up. So don't come to me when you've got
to claim and say I can't tell you because it's classified,
or you get sick when we invite you into a skiff,

(01:35:10):
or we fly fifteen hundred miles to interview, and now
you get squarely on us. Look, if you you believe
in something, share with us. You know, we're I hope
we all are in a search for the truth, and
we shouldn't let the truth, you know intimidators. Intimidators are
scared of us.

Speaker 3 (01:35:31):
We want to know the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:35:32):
I look at it as a you know, as a
retired marine, as an intel officer. I'm concerned for the
national you know, security issue here. Something we don't understand
that's operating, you know, in close proximity to sensitive locations
or operational forces.

Speaker 1 (01:35:51):
I want to know what the hell it is because
we don't and we need it, so.

Speaker 2 (01:35:55):
We don't and it's a concern. And maybe next time
we get together we'll start on that. But I'm gonna
lose you. All right, It's been great. I hope you
got enough to you know, add this and put put
something together.

Speaker 1 (01:36:10):
Oh, don't worry. I definitely did, Tim, So we will
uh well, we'll we'll talk soon. And again you're you're
a patriot, and again you know, I think, uh, we
need not surround ourselves in echo chambers, and we have
to talk to people that you know, are skeptical and
have opposing views to to my own. And you've been

(01:36:30):
in the official capacity. So thank you for your service, Tim,
and thank you everyone for being here. Tim, you can
get out of here. I know your battery is gonna die.
That was Tim Phillips, everybody, former acting director of Arrow
and now retired looking for his next adventure. So with

(01:36:55):
that being said, make sure to like, share, subscribe, and
if you want to be able to watch early access
to these episodes, please become a member and help support
the show. It is not free to run this kind
of program and it is not easy. So with with
all that, I love you guys, and I'll see you

(01:37:16):
on the other side and back.

Speaker 2 (01:38:11):
Yeah,

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Ruthie's Table 4

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Investigating the UNKNOWN: Former Acting Director of AARO- Tim Phillips

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Ruthie's Table 4

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Investigating the UNKNOWN: Former Acting Director of AARO- Tim Phillips

Stuff You Should Know