August 3, 2024 • 43 mins
Tracking Wisdom
Episode 10
The Illusion of Perfection and Finding the Courage to Be Real
Recorded - 10/17/22
DESCRIPTION
In this episode, we delve deep into the complexities of family relationships. Our guest shares a raw and honest account of their experiences with a challenging sibling, exploring the impact of comparison, resentment, and fear.
Through vulnerability and self-reflection, they uncover the root causes of these toxic patterns and embark on a journey towards healing and reconciliation.
Episode Resources
- A Householder's Vinaya – and Sangha Hub Retreat Center - Go to this website to download the book for free.... “In A Householder’s Vinaya, Allan Cooper describes in detail and depth guidelines for realizing our highest dharma aspirations. Going beyond conventional notions of daily life practice, Allan’s deep wisdom both challenges and inspires us to raise the bar of impeccability as we undertake the liberating teachings of the Buddha. In this unique work, there is a wealth of practical advice for transforming everyday life experiences into a genuine path of awakening. Highly recommended.” JOSEPH GOLDSTEIN Author of Mindfulness: A Practical Guide to Awakening and Co-founder of Insight Meditation Society, Barre, MA.
- Conversations With God: An Uncommon Dialogue by: Neale Donald Walsch
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Views, interpretations andopinions expressed are not advice
nor official positionspresented on behalf of any organization
or institution. They are forinformational and entertainment purposes
only. Now join Ryan and Peterfor another episode of the Tracking
Wisdom podcast. So my parentsare in cognitive decline. They're
(00:26):
in their late 80s and early90s, living on their own in their
own house, you know,definitely getting worse. And I saw
it getting worse when Ivisited. Why is that relevant? Maybe
not relevant. That's just whyI was up there. All right, to cut.
I'll just cut to the chase. Soeven though I realized that I had
(00:48):
internalized this negativityin a particular way and that was
my last kind of revelation,that realization is not enough. Like,
I still essentially live infear of that person. Right. And even
though I tried the practice ofreplacing the voice with some, some
(01:09):
success, I don't believe it'sa waste of time. It. It works better
on the internal voice than onthe real physical experience. Okay.
And so like, the last time Ivisited, I had sleep disturbance
for two weeks before I cameup. I was so stressed and I, and
I realized in hindsight it'slike, oh my God. I just was stressing
(01:34):
myself about this visit justbecause of, you know, the probably
one dinner I would have withthis relative.
Wow.
And, and so I kind of had thesame experience, not, not in the
lead up, but certainly in, oh,okay, so Thursday we're gonna have
dinner. And that was like, oh,God, you know, now it went fine.
(01:57):
It was very, it was veryquiet, non confrontational. And in
fact, that relative hardlyspoke at all during dinner and then
excused themselves and said, Ihave to go do some work. And so then
I had like another half houror more with, you know, just hanging
out with everybody else whowasn't as problematic. So the breakthrough
(02:18):
was going home and talking tomy, my youngest sibling and in law
who. Well, they're the otherones who live in, in town and I stay
with them because it's justmore comfortable. They also provide
a lot of debriefing for mebecause, you know, it's stressful
(02:40):
dealing with my parents and Ior, and you know, kind of seeing,
seeing their problems. And sothen we talk about like our, what
our experiences are. And ofcourse they live there, so they see
it much more, much more. Andthey also talk about this other sibling.
And, and so at the beginningof the week already there was a spontaneous
(03:00):
conversation where theybrought that sibling up and said
how everybody has this issue.Everybody has this difficult, like
this is a difficult person.This is not Your problem. This is
a very difficult person thatwe all have this. And so that was
already out there. But thenafter dinner. Well, so the build
(03:22):
up was also that there were acouple of calls while I was there
with my friendly siblings andI actually put on speakerphone with
my problem person calling andhad this like friction, the stressful
interaction with my sister inlaw, kind of supporting, sitting
(03:43):
right in front of me and likesupport giving me, you know, encouragement.
So the thing was after thedinner when we all came back to the
house and the thing that theysaid was, what I see is the two of
you are in a lot of pain. Thetwo of you hurt each other a lot.
(04:04):
And the two of you are in fearthat when it's, you know, when it's,
oh, we're going to gettogether for dinner, the two of you
stress out. And when they seeyou, when that person, when you open
your mouth and say something,no matter what comes out of your
mouth, I see that person'sface go stressed. And to me that
(04:29):
was an utter revelationbecause I see myself as totally defensive,
totally on the defensive. Ithink this person thinks they're
so much better than I am andthinks I'm a waste of time and all
this. And what I was told atthat point was, no, they're really
(04:52):
afraid that you're better thanthey are. And I was like blown away.
And, and then there was a lotof detail about, because I said,
well, I think their life ismuch better than I. Like, I think
they're more successful intheir life than I am. And then, then
came the revelations of like,no, this is what's going on and this
is, you know, and this is howthey experience social interactions.
(05:15):
And this, all this stuff whichdestroyed my conception of what their
life was like and what theiropinion of me was like, which come
to think of it, was thevalidation of what I had said last
time, that I only knew 1% ofwho they were, which is what they
(05:38):
project to me is the 1% ofwhat I see. And what they don't tell
me, you know, when they don'ttell me I'm insecure, I'm afraid
of you. And not only that, I'mafraid I'm a failure because all
this other stuff in my lifethat I just felt just this, this
overwhelming compassion, whichsurprises me a little bit because
(06:00):
I wouldn't have been surprisedor I mean, basically I'm a little
bit surprised that I didn'thave a vindictiveness, that I didn't
have a vindication of like,you know.
Yeah.
Of like. Well, good. You know,instead I just felt, oh, my God,
now I finally. Becompassionate, because I've been
struggling to becompassionate, because that's the
(06:21):
practice. Like, go to theperson who is your biggest adversary
and wish them loving kindness.And I've been doing that. But there's
something missing. You know,there's a. There's a fear. There's
a Still a restriction andwithholding. And so in that moment,
all the fear vanished and thecompassion just flooded out. And
(06:42):
I felt like. So for the nextcouple of days, I was just really.
I drove home through foliage,and I was in heaven. I was. I. I
cannot believe how relieved Iam, how good I feel, and how I'm
not criticizing myself. So. Sothat was really extraordinary. Now,
(07:05):
at the same time, I got homeand did my people at home. No.
Yeah.
Like, I got home and Iimmediately got myself in trouble.
And in fact, my wife. We drovesomewhere, and there was friction
in the car. My wife anddaughter. And my wife got out of
(07:26):
the car and said, you've beenhome less than 48 hours. You need
to try harder. And it was theperfect thing to say. Like, if she
had been defensive oranything, it would have been worse,
but she just said that, walkedaway. And I was like, you should
have stayed at the car.Because I sat in the car and I cracked
up. And I was like, oh, myGod. It was. I really thought it
(07:48):
was hilarious. How. How right.It was like, oh, I just had this
major breakthrough, and I'm socompassionate and so, like, I'm so
relieved of my burdens andeverything and come home, I'm picking
up people. Which is. Which isto say ingrained patterns are hard,
and breakthroughs areimportant, but it's not a one and
(08:11):
done, and you can't. I can'tdevalue the breakthrough that I had
by saying, well, how come I'mnot perfect now? Right? And from
all accounts, enlightenment isthe same way. Nobody has one and
done enlightenment, unless youdecide to go to Paravit Nirvana and
die immediately. That peoplehave enlightenment experiences and
(08:33):
they choose to build on themor they don't.
Right.
So did I ever tell you aboutthe guy I met who had an enlightenment
experience as a grade student?This is an interesting story. He
was a grade school. He was ingrade school, and he was looking
out the window at this goldenlight. And so he told me about this
experience, and he said, I hadthis enlightenment experience. And
(08:55):
it sounded. I can't recite it,but it was congruent with and he
had gone on to study later.Later on. He didn't immediately build
on it, but he remembered theexperience when he was studying Buddhism
and he. He said, yeah, thatthat was, you know, a genuine enlightenment
experience, but he didn'tbuild on it. So he's a very smart.
(09:18):
I don't know him very well.I've met him a few times at parties.
Very smart guy, prettyaccomplished in, you know, what he
does. Quite conversant inBuddhism. But, you know, when I asked
him how his practice was,like, you know, whether he meditates,
it was, well, my knees botherme. It's like, oh, my God.
Just like, in that.
Just really, like you had ataste of it and you can even tell
(09:40):
me about it that, you know,that it was an alignment experience
and yet you choose all thisother stuff. So, I mean, it's kind
of like conversations withGod. Like, I speak to you all the
time, right? And nobodylistens, you know.
Yeah.
So anyway, but the bigger. Ithink the bigger point, that is just
an example. But yeah, thebigger point, it's not. It's not
(10:02):
one and done right. And so Idon't know if we said this before,
but I think, you know, a lotof people have enlightenment experiences
and don't know it. Oh. Infact, that was from the Householder's
Vinya, which is the book Italked about last time or before.
That, that because we're nottrained to pay attention, we miss
our moments of clarity. Wemiss. And if. If we could pay attention
(10:25):
and. And put them all togetherand say, this is a moment of clarity
and become more sensitive toit, and then say this is a moment
of clarity and become moresensitive, eventually we'd see God.
Eventually we just become sosensitive to it that we see it everywhere,
all the time, which is thekind of thing to talk about in conversations
with God, which goes to twopoints. So from the Householder's
(10:47):
Vinya and from what we've beensaying is intent and practice, and
the intent comes first, likekind of the most trivial thing. And
people beat themselves up forhaving good intent. In fact, we even
have the cultural saying thatundervalues good intention. The road
to hell is paved with goodintentions. You must have the good
(11:11):
intention in order to start.Unless. No. Even if you are the fortunate
person who has spontaneousenlightenment, if you do not then
bring intention to thatexperience, then it is lost. And
your opportunity, not youropportunity, is lost forever, but
you're neglecting theopportunity. So intention is key.
(11:33):
And intention doesn't meanthat you have to succeed or be Perfect.
You can fail again and again.As long as you maintain your intention,
you can progress. And thatdoes require faith. That does absolutely
require faith, because in theface of discouragement, it's hard.
And so persistence reallymeans it really is a leap of faith.
(11:55):
And that persistence is. Is.Is essential. Intention was the one.
Oh. And practice is the other,which is the same as persistence.
So I think that the reason Iwas so receptive to this event and
that I was not, that Iimmediately felt to compassion, was
because I've been sending thatintent for months and months. I mean,
(12:18):
I've definitely been layingthe groundwork. And this is, again,
the faith. Right. The faith todo the work when you don't see the
progress and to have thepersistence and do the practice,
because it's laying thegroundwork and setting up your own
receptivity, your receptivityto the opportunity that comes, and
(12:39):
you can't choose it. There'sanother saying that enlightenment
is an accident, and meditationjust makes you more accident prone.
Yeah. So just some very, veryheartfelt comments about the nature
of. Yeah. Intention,persistence, practice. I really feel
incredibly lucky and blessed.No question at all. In fact, that's
(13:02):
what I. That's what I said outof this conversation. It's like,
I cannot believe you were ableto tell me this. I feel like it's
almost a cheat. Like, becauseI do insight meditation, and this
is the kind of thing thatwould come through insight. And I
didn't have to have theinsight. I just had someone tell
me, oh, well, actually, hereare all the facts about how they're
having a bad time and how youcan be compassionate toward them.
(13:24):
Yeah. So, yeah, quite a. Quitea powerful experience. And although
I had a rough. And, you know,part of it was just coming home,
there's a stress ofreadjustment, and there's an expectation
too, you know, of like, oh,everything's gonna be nice. And like,
no, it's irritating. And. ButI haven't. I haven't lost my intention.
And in fact, the next. Sopart. Part of my issue is anger,
(13:48):
and that comes across incriticism and. And argumentativeness
that really creates a lot ofstress in my family, for my family.
And then the other is justkind of an inherent annoyingness
of being, you know, nerdy or.Or whatever, even if I'm not trying
to be right. So yesterday itwasn't as bad. My daughter was very
(14:11):
irritated at me, but I hadn'tgotten angry all day. And I said.
And she was very annoyed, andI said, look, I'm sor. I have been
working on anger and I haven'tbeen angry. I have been annoying,
but I'm not able to work onbeing annoying. I have to focus on
one thing at the time. And.And she kind of, you know, was still
annoyed, but she accepted itlike she didn't shut me out. Good.
(14:33):
So, you know, I. I guessthere's another piece to kind of
doing the groundwork for this,which is I've been interviewing my
parents for oral historymostly as a way of engaging with
them and doing somethinginteresting because housebound. And
part of that. So one of thestories was how my great grandmother
(14:56):
was sent to a convent as achild to. For the convent to raise
them. And the story that hasmy mother's repeated is how the way
they punished her was to giveher a heavy stack of Bibles and make
her go on her knees on thestone floor of the church and walk
the entire length church onher knees carrying weight. And so
(15:19):
it's kind of trivial toidentify that as a kind of original
sin originating trauma thatbasically, you know, my mother's
saying that's why your greatgrandmother was so messed up.
Right.
And she had problems. And thenyour grandmother was messed up and
really mistreated me. Andthere were some stories about that.
(15:40):
And although she's not sayingit and she's not making an excuse
and she doesn't think she'smessed up, that's the message. It's
like, oh, and that's whyyou're messed up. And that's why
my sibling is messed up. Buthaving that knowledge of being able
to very explicitly see, wow,this goes way back. And this goes
way back to some severe abuse,which is, you know, that's only one
(16:03):
example. Obviously, that's atough life.
Yeah.
You know, if that's just one punishment.
Right.
Is very helpful. So what I'msaying is there's a lot of groundwork
that came from different ways.I mean, this was just coming from
getting to know my parents, togive them something to do during
their day. It wasn't out ofany, like, kind of intentional. Right.
(16:25):
Let me learn. Right, right. Itwasn't investigation, but it came
out. And, and so I know how itcame all the way down to my problem
sibling who then not only wasa parental figure growing up, but
has persisted in that behaviorto this day with the entire rest
(16:45):
of the family.
Right.
That's the. And. And so beingable to see that so clearly is very,
very helpful in kind ofsetting up the conditions to have
compassion. Which is just tosay, you can have the intent to have
compassion and you might notfind it until everything comes together.
And I, so I just want to sayagain, you know, for those, for those
(17:07):
on that kind of path, it's soimportant not to beat yourself up
and not to give up and kind ofunder, kind of put all these things
together and kind ofunderstand it and build a place where,
where you can essentially hangin there until it happens. Yeah,
that, that's the bottom. Now,it might be helpful to someone to
elaborate a little bit on thekind of relationship that I've been
(17:32):
dealing with here. And a bigpart of it is comparison, which I
do all the time. I know it'svery, very common, but I certainly
feel it, you know, judgingmyself against, against others. And
so, you know, I have thissibling who lives very ostentatiously.
In fact, even the wordostentatious I'll tell. So, so the
(17:53):
story is I called himostentatious one day while I was
standing in his office with.I'm trying to, I'm trying to avoid
pronouns. And there's thiseight foot tall mirror with something
like a two foot wide framethat's all gold leaf. It's basically
(18:13):
this giant massive museumpiece. It's probably not 8ft tall,
I'm exaggerating, but it'smassive and it is baroque and it
is gold. And my siblings said,you think I'm ostentatious? And I
said, look at this mirror.That is ostentatious. I just call
that nice. But really thewhole room, this, the private work
(18:36):
office, the desk that'sactually used to work on is the same
style, like this baroque.Antique. Got to be, got to be antique.
And for listeners who don'tknow if it's not more than 200 years
old, it's not antique. So thatwas just the example of using the
word ostentatious, which wascontested. I'm not ostentatious.
(19:00):
Bespoke shirts from my guy inthe city. So there's actually, you
know, a personal relationshipwith a person who makes bespoke shirts.
I mean, I've never heard ofsomeone in my circle of contact who
has bespoke shirts. $500 shoesthat drop the hat, trip to Italy
again. Well, of course we haveto get a few thousand dollars worth
(19:22):
of leather goods because we'rehere in Milan. And if you're in Modena,
then of course you're going toget a $500 bottle of balsamic vinegar
that's been aged for 50 yearsbecause what else would you do? Just
to say that there is this veryelaborate facade of success which
continues and continues,continues. And I found out that the
(19:45):
facade is not built on anykind of a foundation. It's an empty
foundation. And here I wascomparing my levels of success to
this and finding out insteadthat there was this compensation
from this sibling for theaccomplishments of the other siblings,
which are more. Well, I thinkit's safe to say three siblings have
(20:08):
advanced degrees. This onedoesn't. I certainly have never perceived
that as any kind of issue.I've never looked down on a sibling
for not having an advanceddegree. Why, why would I? And frankly,
I don't value my advanceddegree that much anyway. It's more
of. It's. That's a wholenother story. It's more of a badge.
And it was definitely aparental expectation. That's really
(20:31):
why I have it. So just to saythat if, like me, you're someone
who builds your identityaround comparison with others, the
facades can be veryconvincing. And there's really. I
mean, we shouldn't compareourselves anyway, but easier said
than done. But I think it'spotentially helpful to realize that
(20:53):
the facade of even someoneclose to you. And I say close kind
of reservedly because we'renot at all close. We're just very
closely related. That's what Imean. The facade can be very convincing
and be empty. So again, don'tget discouraged and don't get discouraged
that you continue to compareyourself. Again, this is, you know,
(21:15):
it's. It's all about intentand persistence. I'm sure I'm going
to. Well, I know I continue tocompare myself, but build the intent
and the practice of notcomparing yourself and lay your own
foundations to be ready forthe opportunity that comes. Whether
it's an opportunity forpersonal success or an opportunity
(21:36):
for insight andreconciliation. That's my next. That's
my next thing is I don't thinkthe sibling is ready to reconcile.
In fact, my other sibling saidthey don't have enough insight to
ever want to. But I'm going tostart. This is my lead into that
whole conversation with mysiblings that I was looking, I was
(21:57):
planning, planning to worktowards a reconciliation because
this is a negativerelationship that's consumed my life.
It really is very much part ofmy identity because this sibling
was just so emotionallyinfluential, really the most emotionally
influential person in my life.Interesting, because I told about
(22:20):
the family ancient historythat, that, you know, of dysfunction
and somehow it just skipped myparents direct influence on me and
jumped to my siblingsinfluence on me. But yes, the next
thing is for me to continue myinternal work and start to lay the
groundwork for reconciliation.And at this point, I don't think
(22:43):
really the intent is to askfor forgiveness or to give for forgiveness,
although I think that has tohappen. I. I am definitely going.
I. I definitely intend toapologize for my role in the toxic
relationship because I cannotsay that I haven't taken opportunities,
when they presentedthemselves, to take a shot and try
(23:05):
to get the upper hand, so.Which obviously would reinforce the
insecurity that's the root ofall this mutual insecurity. You know,
I'm kind of feel like I'mstarting on a new journey to lay
the groundwork, to worktowards reconciliation. And it doesn't
mean, you know, just pick upthe phone saying, hey, we gotta talk.
I mean, I know that I have alot of internal. Internal work to
(23:28):
do. So did that cover it?
I think so. You had startedsaying something about a story about
your mentor from.
Oh, no, no. I was just sayingthat this is the kind of breakthrough
that I think would have. Wouldbe of interest to my group mentoring
and, you know, potentiallyhelpful, if nothing else. It's just
a. Hey, this good thinghappened to me, and I want to share
(23:48):
with the group, but I think mymentor is really good at finding
added value in something, youknow, so I might get some additional
insight or. Well, obviously Ican definitely ask for guidance in
working towards, you know,what are the steps that I should
be taking to build a path toreconciliation and what should that
(24:09):
look like? So I was saying,you know, part of it is forgiving
and getting forgiveness, butthat's not really the goal. I'm really
feeling that the goal is totry to help this person, which obviously,
you know, saying, well, but I.But I think saying it never mattered
to me that there's anydifference in achievement or rather
(24:31):
that I've never looked down ontheir level of achievement. I've
only. I've only been concernedabout them looking down on my level
of achievement is probably agood thing for them to hear, regardless
of how receptive they thinkthey are or say they are and, you
know, apologizing for anyharm, any hurt I've caused, even
though they probably deny thatthey're vulnerable to hurt, would
(24:53):
probably be helpful in termsof just let it sink in. Just let
it lay the. You know, startlaying the groundwork. I mean, it's
like planting the seeds and,you know, watering the. Watering
the ground to work towards it.And then. And then I have some studying
to do around what would thislook like. And so, you know, definitely
this is the kind of workthat's done in mindfulness meditation
(25:16):
groups, you know, especiallywith my teachers, Tara Brock and
Jack Kornfield. So. So, yeah,so I look forward to this journey.
It's.
It's nice to have somethingthat. Well, to have some purpose
that is hopefully helpful to.To someone who's in pain.
All right. Yeah. That was agood one, though. I. I mean, obviously
(25:40):
I said offline, but I'm verygrateful that you were open and sharing
that experience, because Ithink that I know in my own. My own
experience sometimes sharingdeeply meaningful and personal experiences,
sharing them outwardly is arisk, I guess. Right. And it's a
risk. It's a risk that whoeveryou share it with might just tear
(26:02):
it apart and shut it down andtell you all the reasons why it isn't
a certain way. So, yeah, Ithink it's important that we share.
We, meaning humanity, sharesthese kinds of insights. I wrote
down a number of things. Someof them we've already kind of touched
on, but I think one of them,you know, you. The last thing you
kind of mentioned was alludingto not necessarily knowing what others
(26:24):
are going through or have gonethrough and whatever experiences
have brought them intowhatever being they are presenting
at the moment. And I thinkthat that idea gets presented, but
to really internalize thatidea and to be fortunate enough to
have experienced that in yourown life, like experience the understanding
(26:46):
or the. What's the word? I'mtrying to think. I'm trying not to
use insight, but, I mean, itis insight, but I feel like it's
whatever it is to actuallyexperience having a perception of
somebody and then having thatperception kind of crumble to the
ground because of a newawareness of things that you didn't
know that meaning or being. Tosay that if our intent is to present
(27:10):
ourselves in loving,compassion, acceptance, forgiveness,
and all those loving words tothe world, when we start having our
reactions to the events andthings that are happening around
us, being able to stop in themoment and remind ourselves that
we don't know, you know,somebody cuts us off. I don't know.
That person isn't rushing homefor something really important. Right.
(27:33):
And what they just did,ultimately, was very little as far
as a trespass on. On my own,you know, on me. But we let that
fire of injustice boil up, andit's reactive, as you said.
It's.
It's. There is some biologybehind it, but I also think it's.
It's a bit habitual. And thenI Think so. I thought so. You had
(27:55):
originally mentioned cultureand our culture of negativity and
then brought it back tothere's a biological impetus for
that. And what I see unfoldingin front of us is a bit of a manipulation
by the media, be it whoeverthe interested parties are, to leverage
that biological component andflood us in a way that, like, it
(28:18):
feels like everywhere youlook, you're being encouraged and
rewarded for falling down thatrabbit hole. And so it's natural
and biological for us to loveand to fear. Right? It is that dichotomy.
And we do have that choice.And what I heard you saying, and
I think I agree, is we'vereally fostered both externally through
(28:42):
our culture and alsointernally in our engagement with
that, the negative side. Andit. I had written down practice,
and you mentioned practice anumber of times, but it's like, it's
not a one and done thing.There's a reason why they call it
practice. Right. And we, wedon't go on a diet for a week and
then expect that. Oh, now I, Ifeel much better this week. Now I
(29:04):
know that. And I'll never fallvictim to the other way of thinking
ever again. I'll never pursuea gluttonous feeling for cake or
something like that. We allknow that's not true. And we need
to extend that compassion andunderstanding to ourselves in this
kind of work as well. Thatit's practiced for a reason. As we
(29:27):
practice it, we set ourintention. That's. That to me, is
the choice. That's the, thechoice that we originally make where
we set the intention. This isthe way we want to be. And then we
set on a path to continue topractice it. And as we practice it,
we get better and better atit. And you'll see eventually, hopefully,
you know, you, you would see.At least this is what I've heard
(29:48):
and I, I think you said it ononline was eventually, eventually,
if you practice enough and seethe, feel the effects and see the
effects of continuing to makechoices from a place of love that
(30:09):
eventually you kind of onlysee that or you only choose that,
and that ultimately is thatkind of heaven on earth.
Exactly. Or at the very least,you get a compensatory reflex.
Right.
So your negative reflex comes.And now you've trained yourself so
well that your positive reflexjust follows immediately upon that
(30:34):
and neutralize it so that youdon't experience the negativity.
It's there. Yep, it's there.That's, you know, the, the phrase
I always love is having teawith Mara. Mara shows up and you
just say, ah, come, let's havetea. That's your only response? It's
(30:55):
not oh, my God, or even shoo.I found a quote to what you said,
the beginning, about notknowing what people are going through.
So the poet Longfellow writes,if we could read the secret history
(31:15):
of our enemies, we should findin each man's life sorrow and suffering
enough to disarm all hishostility. Just exactly what I was
thinking when you said that.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm alsoreminded of a quote that I had read.
(31:36):
And of course, I don't thinkthis is a measured quote, but it
said something like 90% of thethings we worry about never happen.
Right. So we. We anticipatethis future thing and we stress.
And we experience that stressover and over and over again repeatedly.
And then in most cases, thatthing never actually comes to fruition.
Twain. There's a Twain.
(31:58):
Okay.
To that effect. I've had manytroubles in my life, most of which
never happened.
Right. And, you know, I thinkthat that's an important thing. And
I've. I've shared that withmy. With my daughter and my wife,
I think, a few times. And justwhen we're inclined to. That's not
to say we shouldn't beprepared, but that understanding
(32:21):
and having the awareness thatas we stress and elaborate on our
anticipated experience, thatwe do in fact end up having that
experience because we'restressed about it, in thinking about
it and whether it actuallyhappens or not, it did happen because
it happened inside of us.
(32:43):
And if we turn back to thebook, this is exactly what, you know,
one of the concepts in thebook, which, I mean, again, it's
one of those. Not universalconcept, but it's a widespread concept
of, you know, that which youpay attention to is what happens.
(33:05):
There's a Buddha quote ofthat, definitely. I think it's that.
That which you think youbecome. But more than that, this
idea of kind of attractingevents. Right. And if you're negative,
well, you create your world.Yeah, you create your world. And
so if you live in a hostileway, you will absolutely create a
(33:30):
hostile environment.
Right.
For yourself.
Right.
And, you know, I mean, even ifyou're not outwardly hostile, all
the things that you can do,you know, less. Less negative things
will still have those effects,and the positive things will have
(33:50):
those effects as well.
Right, right. You hadmentioned faith as far as doing this
work. And I was brought tothink of that, the converse of that
(34:12):
being that we have a fear ofassuredness, like we're embarking
on this with, I guess it goesback to the. Tied to the outcome,
right? Embarking on thisbecause the end result is or will
be in our brain. This is whatwe want to happen. Is whatever you
want happen. You know, the,that there's a reconciliation or
(34:37):
whatever it is that you're,that you're embarking on. That is
that fear of a. The fear ofassuredness, meaning I'm fearful
that the assuredness is notguaranteed and then become concerned
that I'm doing this. Butnothing will ever come of it or whatever
it may be. And the faith is,is to be able to move forward through
(35:01):
that. And ultimately, I think,and it's kind of been said that it
is assured if you, if yourintent remains the same and you continue
on the same path, you willbring into your experience the thing
that. Which you want. You cango ahead and just say whatever it
(35:25):
is.
So, yeah, I want to say acouple of things about faith because,
you know, if you're like me,faith can be a difficult word. If
you see yourself as a, youknow, rationalist. You know what
we're taught, we're using theword faith, but we're not using it
(35:48):
in the Christian sense oftrust in God. And I believe because
my God told me to believe.That's where I think a lot of people,
when you say faith, that'swhat they're thinking. And this is
a different kind of faith,really probably has parallels. But
(36:09):
this is what I would call arational faith. In fact, probably
the most rational way ofputting it without using the word
faith would be trust. Theprocess. You're engaged in a process
when you, when you select apractice based on some tradition
or even, say, based on, youknow, conversations with God, not
(36:32):
a tradition, but you'reselecting a process. You trust the
process. I'm going to work theprocess until I see some outcome.
And I guess the scariness islike you said, but what if I can't
see the outcome? So that'swhere, you know, in terms of having
(36:57):
faith, it's useful to haveexamples of success. And that's,
that's where, you know, atraditional faith can be helpful
because there are many writersfor the traditional faith that you
can read and say, oh, this iswhat they did. This is what happened
(37:19):
to them. So something with.Well, I mean, I'm sure there are
similar examples withconversation with God, but this is
where I'm getting comfortable.And I think we both kind of feel
like, you know, we're nottrying. We don't want to Promulgate
this book per se. We just wantto discuss how interesting it is.
(37:45):
But. But it is. Oh, that wassomething I was going to say, which
is, this volume doesn't seemto be very actionable, like. So I'm
expecting that comes later. Infact, I know it does because now
they have courses andworkbooks and. And things like that,
(38:08):
which, you know, so don't pickthis up thinking that you're gonna
have an actionable solution. Ithink it's a bunch of good ideas.
I think kind of defining apath for yourself based on this book
(38:28):
alone would be a challenge. Ithink, you know, I'm. I'm more comfortable
adding elements, adding theseideas to my practice because my practice
is established from atradition that has structure. Doesn't
(38:53):
he say something in here aboutstructure? And I know he says he
talks a lot about what we havebeen talking about institutions and
specifically institutionsdefending themselves, which. Did
you bring that in from here?
Yeah.
Okay. Okay.
But because it resonated withme and what I see in my experience.
(39:15):
Absolutely, absolutely. Okay.Sorry. That's all I had. Yep.
And I guess as far as justopening openness to receive information,
I guess that's part of whatsetting the intent and being ready
(39:41):
to receive information thatcomes your way. I guess to some degree
recognizing when you have anenlightenment experience or something
like that you were talkingabout. You know, people likely have
these events that occur intheir life, but based on either their
(40:03):
internal evolution and placewhere they are and the circumstances,
they may not be able toreally. I guess that's where the
ears, they hear and then kindof comes into place is to be in a
place or your judgmental. Thepart of you which is the biology
(40:23):
that is inclined to passjudgment, value judgment on events
and circumstances andmaterials to be able to relinquish
that enough to be able tohear. A gem of wisdom when it comes
to your ears and notimmediately, you know, knee jerk
reaction and throw it out.
Right. So. So a couple ofthings. I mean, an enlightenment
(40:47):
experience is a pretty bigdeal. Basically. You know, I think
they're pretty much alwaysassociated with sensations. Well,
physical. Physical sensations,either of lights or of bodily sensations.
(41:11):
So, you know, they're pretty.I'd say hard to miss, but.
But you could interpret it,but not.
Easy to interpret it. Right?Exactly. Exactly. So you might know
that you experiencedsomething, but think that you had
an illness. But the point Iwant to make is that there are many
(41:33):
other experiences which the.The author of the Householders Vinia
calls, I think moments ofclarity and I think this is kind
of referred to. This is likeone of the ideas in conversation
with God of I talk to you allthe time. You don't hear me. In terms
(42:01):
of moments of clarity, that'spaying attention essentially to miracles
of the mind, where your mindis behaving the way it should be
suddenly. And if we can payattention to it and recognize it
and not think, oh, that's justa weird thing, but say that's a thing
(42:22):
that I can develop that, thenthat is very key. And then the other
idea, which I, again, morefrom the book, more from conversations
with God, is just being awareof daily miracles, right? Like what
is miraculous in yourenvironment right now, you know,
(42:44):
but so that's all part of. Ofhaving. Developing this sensitivity.
And I guess the caveat is youcan't just decide to do it. Okay,
this is, this is where I thinkthat intent is not going to get you
(43:05):
very far to say, I'm going topay attention to little miracles.
I mean, yeah, for a littlewhile you can say, oh, look at that,
look at that. Oh, isn't thatinteresting? It's not going to last.
This is where you need to havea specific path and method.
Views, interpretations andopinions expressed are not advice
nor official positionspresented on behalf of any organization
or institution. They are forinformational and entertainment purposes
only. Now join Ryan and Peterfor another episode of the Tracking
Wisdom podcast. So my parentsare in cognitive decline. They're
(00:26):
in their late 80s and early90s, living on their own in their
own house, you know,definitely getting worse. And I saw
it getting worse when Ivisited. Why is that relevant? Maybe
not relevant. That's just whyI was up there. All right, to cut.
I'll just cut to the chase. Soeven though I realized that I had
(00:48):
internalized this negativityin a particular way and that was
my last kind of revelation,that realization is not enough. Like,
I still essentially live infear of that person. Right. And even
though I tried the practice ofreplacing the voice with some, some
(01:09):
success, I don't believe it'sa waste of time. It. It works better
on the internal voice than onthe real physical experience. Okay.
And so like, the last time Ivisited, I had sleep disturbance
for two weeks before I cameup. I was so stressed and I, and
I realized in hindsight it'slike, oh my God. I just was stressing
(01:34):
myself about this visit justbecause of, you know, the probably
one dinner I would have withthis relative.
Wow.
And, and so I kind of had thesame experience, not, not in the
lead up, but certainly in, oh,okay, so Thursday we're gonna have
dinner. And that was like, oh,God, you know, now it went fine.
(01:57):
It was very, it was veryquiet, non confrontational. And in
fact, that relative hardlyspoke at all during dinner and then
excused themselves and said, Ihave to go do some work. And so then
I had like another half houror more with, you know, just hanging
out with everybody else whowasn't as problematic. So the breakthrough
(02:18):
was going home and talking tomy, my youngest sibling and in law
who. Well, they're the otherones who live in, in town and I stay
with them because it's justmore comfortable. They also provide
a lot of debriefing for mebecause, you know, it's stressful
(02:40):
dealing with my parents and Ior, and you know, kind of seeing,
seeing their problems. And sothen we talk about like our, what
our experiences are. And ofcourse they live there, so they see
it much more, much more. Andthey also talk about this other sibling.
And, and so at the beginningof the week already there was a spontaneous
(03:00):
conversation where theybrought that sibling up and said
how everybody has this issue.Everybody has this difficult, like
this is a difficult person.This is not Your problem. This is
a very difficult person thatwe all have this. And so that was
already out there. But thenafter dinner. Well, so the build
(03:22):
up was also that there were acouple of calls while I was there
with my friendly siblings andI actually put on speakerphone with
my problem person calling andhad this like friction, the stressful
interaction with my sister inlaw, kind of supporting, sitting
(03:43):
right in front of me and likesupport giving me, you know, encouragement.
So the thing was after thedinner when we all came back to the
house and the thing that theysaid was, what I see is the two of
you are in a lot of pain. Thetwo of you hurt each other a lot.
(04:04):
And the two of you are in fearthat when it's, you know, when it's,
oh, we're going to gettogether for dinner, the two of you
stress out. And when they seeyou, when that person, when you open
your mouth and say something,no matter what comes out of your
mouth, I see that person'sface go stressed. And to me that
(04:29):
was an utter revelationbecause I see myself as totally defensive,
totally on the defensive. Ithink this person thinks they're
so much better than I am andthinks I'm a waste of time and all
this. And what I was told atthat point was, no, they're really
(04:52):
afraid that you're better thanthey are. And I was like blown away.
And, and then there was a lotof detail about, because I said,
well, I think their life ismuch better than I. Like, I think
they're more successful intheir life than I am. And then, then
came the revelations of like,no, this is what's going on and this
is, you know, and this is howthey experience social interactions.
(05:15):
And this, all this stuff whichdestroyed my conception of what their
life was like and what theiropinion of me was like, which come
to think of it, was thevalidation of what I had said last
time, that I only knew 1% ofwho they were, which is what they
(05:38):
project to me is the 1% ofwhat I see. And what they don't tell
me, you know, when they don'ttell me I'm insecure, I'm afraid
of you. And not only that, I'mafraid I'm a failure because all
this other stuff in my lifethat I just felt just this, this
overwhelming compassion, whichsurprises me a little bit because
(06:00):
I wouldn't have been surprisedor I mean, basically I'm a little
bit surprised that I didn'thave a vindictiveness, that I didn't
have a vindication of like,you know.
Yeah.
Of like. Well, good. You know,instead I just felt, oh, my God,
now I finally. Becompassionate, because I've been
struggling to becompassionate, because that's the
(06:21):
practice. Like, go to theperson who is your biggest adversary
and wish them loving kindness.And I've been doing that. But there's
something missing. You know,there's a. There's a fear. There's
a Still a restriction andwithholding. And so in that moment,
all the fear vanished and thecompassion just flooded out. And
(06:42):
I felt like. So for the nextcouple of days, I was just really.
I drove home through foliage,and I was in heaven. I was. I. I
cannot believe how relieved Iam, how good I feel, and how I'm
not criticizing myself. So. Sothat was really extraordinary. Now,
(07:05):
at the same time, I got homeand did my people at home. No.
Yeah.
Like, I got home and Iimmediately got myself in trouble.
And in fact, my wife. We drovesomewhere, and there was friction
in the car. My wife anddaughter. And my wife got out of
(07:26):
the car and said, you've beenhome less than 48 hours. You need
to try harder. And it was theperfect thing to say. Like, if she
had been defensive oranything, it would have been worse,
but she just said that, walkedaway. And I was like, you should
have stayed at the car.Because I sat in the car and I cracked
up. And I was like, oh, myGod. It was. I really thought it
(07:48):
was hilarious. How. How right.It was like, oh, I just had this
major breakthrough, and I'm socompassionate and so, like, I'm so
relieved of my burdens andeverything and come home, I'm picking
up people. Which is. Which isto say ingrained patterns are hard,
and breakthroughs areimportant, but it's not a one and
(08:11):
done, and you can't. I can'tdevalue the breakthrough that I had
by saying, well, how come I'mnot perfect now? Right? And from
all accounts, enlightenment isthe same way. Nobody has one and
done enlightenment, unless youdecide to go to Paravit Nirvana and
die immediately. That peoplehave enlightenment experiences and
(08:33):
they choose to build on themor they don't.
Right.
So did I ever tell you aboutthe guy I met who had an enlightenment
experience as a grade student?This is an interesting story. He
was a grade school. He was ingrade school, and he was looking
out the window at this goldenlight. And so he told me about this
experience, and he said, I hadthis enlightenment experience. And
(08:55):
it sounded. I can't recite it,but it was congruent with and he
had gone on to study later.Later on. He didn't immediately build
on it, but he remembered theexperience when he was studying Buddhism
and he. He said, yeah, thatthat was, you know, a genuine enlightenment
experience, but he didn'tbuild on it. So he's a very smart.
(09:18):
I don't know him very well.I've met him a few times at parties.
Very smart guy, prettyaccomplished in, you know, what he
does. Quite conversant inBuddhism. But, you know, when I asked
him how his practice was,like, you know, whether he meditates,
it was, well, my knees botherme. It's like, oh, my God.
Just like, in that.
Just really, like you had ataste of it and you can even tell
(09:40):
me about it that, you know,that it was an alignment experience
and yet you choose all thisother stuff. So, I mean, it's kind
of like conversations withGod. Like, I speak to you all the
time, right? And nobodylistens, you know.
Yeah.
So anyway, but the bigger. Ithink the bigger point, that is just
an example. But yeah, thebigger point, it's not. It's not
(10:02):
one and done right. And so Idon't know if we said this before,
but I think, you know, a lotof people have enlightenment experiences
and don't know it. Oh. Infact, that was from the Householder's
Vinya, which is the book Italked about last time or before.
That, that because we're nottrained to pay attention, we miss
our moments of clarity. Wemiss. And if. If we could pay attention
(10:25):
and. And put them all togetherand say, this is a moment of clarity
and become more sensitive toit, and then say this is a moment
of clarity and become moresensitive, eventually we'd see God.
Eventually we just become sosensitive to it that we see it everywhere,
all the time, which is thekind of thing to talk about in conversations
with God, which goes to twopoints. So from the Householder's
(10:47):
Vinya and from what we've beensaying is intent and practice, and
the intent comes first, likekind of the most trivial thing. And
people beat themselves up forhaving good intent. In fact, we even
have the cultural saying thatundervalues good intention. The road
to hell is paved with goodintentions. You must have the good
(11:11):
intention in order to start.Unless. No. Even if you are the fortunate
person who has spontaneousenlightenment, if you do not then
bring intention to thatexperience, then it is lost. And
your opportunity, not youropportunity, is lost forever, but
you're neglecting theopportunity. So intention is key.
(11:33):
And intention doesn't meanthat you have to succeed or be Perfect.
You can fail again and again.As long as you maintain your intention,
you can progress. And thatdoes require faith. That does absolutely
require faith, because in theface of discouragement, it's hard.
And so persistence reallymeans it really is a leap of faith.
(11:55):
And that persistence is. Is.Is essential. Intention was the one.
Oh. And practice is the other,which is the same as persistence.
So I think that the reason Iwas so receptive to this event and
that I was not, that Iimmediately felt to compassion, was
because I've been sending thatintent for months and months. I mean,
(12:18):
I've definitely been layingthe groundwork. And this is, again,
the faith. Right. The faith todo the work when you don't see the
progress and to have thepersistence and do the practice,
because it's laying thegroundwork and setting up your own
receptivity, your receptivityto the opportunity that comes, and
(12:39):
you can't choose it. There'sanother saying that enlightenment
is an accident, and meditationjust makes you more accident prone.
Yeah. So just some very, veryheartfelt comments about the nature
of. Yeah. Intention,persistence, practice. I really feel
incredibly lucky and blessed.No question at all. In fact, that's
(13:02):
what I. That's what I said outof this conversation. It's like,
I cannot believe you were ableto tell me this. I feel like it's
almost a cheat. Like, becauseI do insight meditation, and this
is the kind of thing thatwould come through insight. And I
didn't have to have theinsight. I just had someone tell
me, oh, well, actually, hereare all the facts about how they're
having a bad time and how youcan be compassionate toward them.
(13:24):
Yeah. So, yeah, quite a. Quitea powerful experience. And although
I had a rough. And, you know,part of it was just coming home,
there's a stress ofreadjustment, and there's an expectation
too, you know, of like, oh,everything's gonna be nice. And like,
no, it's irritating. And. ButI haven't. I haven't lost my intention.
And in fact, the next. Sopart. Part of my issue is anger,
(13:48):
and that comes across incriticism and. And argumentativeness
that really creates a lot ofstress in my family, for my family.
And then the other is justkind of an inherent annoyingness
of being, you know, nerdy or.Or whatever, even if I'm not trying
to be right. So yesterday itwasn't as bad. My daughter was very
(14:11):
irritated at me, but I hadn'tgotten angry all day. And I said.
And she was very annoyed, andI said, look, I'm sor. I have been
working on anger and I haven'tbeen angry. I have been annoying,
but I'm not able to work onbeing annoying. I have to focus on
one thing at the time. And.And she kind of, you know, was still
annoyed, but she accepted itlike she didn't shut me out. Good.
(14:33):
So, you know, I. I guessthere's another piece to kind of
doing the groundwork for this,which is I've been interviewing my
parents for oral historymostly as a way of engaging with
them and doing somethinginteresting because housebound. And
part of that. So one of thestories was how my great grandmother
(14:56):
was sent to a convent as achild to. For the convent to raise
them. And the story that hasmy mother's repeated is how the way
they punished her was to giveher a heavy stack of Bibles and make
her go on her knees on thestone floor of the church and walk
the entire length church onher knees carrying weight. And so
(15:19):
it's kind of trivial toidentify that as a kind of original
sin originating trauma thatbasically, you know, my mother's
saying that's why your greatgrandmother was so messed up.
Right.
And she had problems. And thenyour grandmother was messed up and
really mistreated me. Andthere were some stories about that.
(15:40):
And although she's not sayingit and she's not making an excuse
and she doesn't think she'smessed up, that's the message. It's
like, oh, and that's whyyou're messed up. And that's why
my sibling is messed up. Buthaving that knowledge of being able
to very explicitly see, wow,this goes way back. And this goes
way back to some severe abuse,which is, you know, that's only one
(16:03):
example. Obviously, that's atough life.
Yeah.
You know, if that's just one punishment.
Right.
Is very helpful. So what I'msaying is there's a lot of groundwork
that came from different ways.I mean, this was just coming from
getting to know my parents, togive them something to do during
their day. It wasn't out ofany, like, kind of intentional. Right.
(16:25):
Let me learn. Right, right. Itwasn't investigation, but it came
out. And, and so I know how itcame all the way down to my problem
sibling who then not only wasa parental figure growing up, but
has persisted in that behaviorto this day with the entire rest
(16:45):
of the family.
Right.
That's the. And. And so beingable to see that so clearly is very,
very helpful in kind ofsetting up the conditions to have
compassion. Which is just tosay, you can have the intent to have
compassion and you might notfind it until everything comes together.
And I, so I just want to sayagain, you know, for those, for those
(17:07):
on that kind of path, it's soimportant not to beat yourself up
and not to give up and kind ofunder, kind of put all these things
together and kind ofunderstand it and build a place where,
where you can essentially hangin there until it happens. Yeah,
that, that's the bottom. Now,it might be helpful to someone to
elaborate a little bit on thekind of relationship that I've been
(17:32):
dealing with here. And a bigpart of it is comparison, which I
do all the time. I know it'svery, very common, but I certainly
feel it, you know, judgingmyself against, against others. And
so, you know, I have thissibling who lives very ostentatiously.
In fact, even the wordostentatious I'll tell. So, so the
(17:53):
story is I called himostentatious one day while I was
standing in his office with.I'm trying to, I'm trying to avoid
pronouns. And there's thiseight foot tall mirror with something
like a two foot wide framethat's all gold leaf. It's basically
(18:13):
this giant massive museumpiece. It's probably not 8ft tall,
I'm exaggerating, but it'smassive and it is baroque and it
is gold. And my siblings said,you think I'm ostentatious? And I
said, look at this mirror.That is ostentatious. I just call
that nice. But really thewhole room, this, the private work
(18:36):
office, the desk that'sactually used to work on is the same
style, like this baroque.Antique. Got to be, got to be antique.
And for listeners who don'tknow if it's not more than 200 years
old, it's not antique. So thatwas just the example of using the
word ostentatious, which wascontested. I'm not ostentatious.
(19:00):
Bespoke shirts from my guy inthe city. So there's actually, you
know, a personal relationshipwith a person who makes bespoke shirts.
I mean, I've never heard ofsomeone in my circle of contact who
has bespoke shirts. $500 shoesthat drop the hat, trip to Italy
again. Well, of course we haveto get a few thousand dollars worth
(19:22):
of leather goods because we'rehere in Milan. And if you're in Modena,
then of course you're going toget a $500 bottle of balsamic vinegar
that's been aged for 50 yearsbecause what else would you do? Just
to say that there is this veryelaborate facade of success which
continues and continues,continues. And I found out that the
(19:45):
facade is not built on anykind of a foundation. It's an empty
foundation. And here I wascomparing my levels of success to
this and finding out insteadthat there was this compensation
from this sibling for theaccomplishments of the other siblings,
which are more. Well, I thinkit's safe to say three siblings have
(20:08):
advanced degrees. This onedoesn't. I certainly have never perceived
that as any kind of issue.I've never looked down on a sibling
for not having an advanceddegree. Why, why would I? And frankly,
I don't value my advanceddegree that much anyway. It's more
of. It's. That's a wholenother story. It's more of a badge.
And it was definitely aparental expectation. That's really
(20:31):
why I have it. So just to saythat if, like me, you're someone
who builds your identityaround comparison with others, the
facades can be veryconvincing. And there's really. I
mean, we shouldn't compareourselves anyway, but easier said
than done. But I think it'spotentially helpful to realize that
(20:53):
the facade of even someoneclose to you. And I say close kind
of reservedly because we'renot at all close. We're just very
closely related. That's what Imean. The facade can be very convincing
and be empty. So again, don'tget discouraged and don't get discouraged
that you continue to compareyourself. Again, this is, you know,
(21:15):
it's. It's all about intentand persistence. I'm sure I'm going
to. Well, I know I continue tocompare myself, but build the intent
and the practice of notcomparing yourself and lay your own
foundations to be ready forthe opportunity that comes. Whether
it's an opportunity forpersonal success or an opportunity
(21:36):
for insight andreconciliation. That's my next. That's
my next thing is I don't thinkthe sibling is ready to reconcile.
In fact, my other sibling saidthey don't have enough insight to
ever want to. But I'm going tostart. This is my lead into that
whole conversation with mysiblings that I was looking, I was
(21:57):
planning, planning to worktowards a reconciliation because
this is a negativerelationship that's consumed my life.
It really is very much part ofmy identity because this sibling
was just so emotionallyinfluential, really the most emotionally
influential person in my life.Interesting, because I told about
(22:20):
the family ancient historythat, that, you know, of dysfunction
and somehow it just skipped myparents direct influence on me and
jumped to my siblingsinfluence on me. But yes, the next
thing is for me to continue myinternal work and start to lay the
groundwork for reconciliation.And at this point, I don't think
(22:43):
really the intent is to askfor forgiveness or to give for forgiveness,
although I think that has tohappen. I. I am definitely going.
I. I definitely intend toapologize for my role in the toxic
relationship because I cannotsay that I haven't taken opportunities,
when they presentedthemselves, to take a shot and try
(23:05):
to get the upper hand, so.Which obviously would reinforce the
insecurity that's the root ofall this mutual insecurity. You know,
I'm kind of feel like I'mstarting on a new journey to lay
the groundwork, to worktowards reconciliation. And it doesn't
mean, you know, just pick upthe phone saying, hey, we gotta talk.
I mean, I know that I have alot of internal. Internal work to
(23:28):
do. So did that cover it?
I think so. You had startedsaying something about a story about
your mentor from.
Oh, no, no. I was just sayingthat this is the kind of breakthrough
that I think would have. Wouldbe of interest to my group mentoring
and, you know, potentiallyhelpful, if nothing else. It's just
a. Hey, this good thinghappened to me, and I want to share
(23:48):
with the group, but I think mymentor is really good at finding
added value in something, youknow, so I might get some additional
insight or. Well, obviously Ican definitely ask for guidance in
working towards, you know,what are the steps that I should
be taking to build a path toreconciliation and what should that
(24:09):
look like? So I was saying,you know, part of it is forgiving
and getting forgiveness, butthat's not really the goal. I'm really
feeling that the goal is totry to help this person, which obviously,
you know, saying, well, but I.But I think saying it never mattered
to me that there's anydifference in achievement or rather
(24:31):
that I've never looked down ontheir level of achievement. I've
only. I've only been concernedabout them looking down on my level
of achievement is probably agood thing for them to hear, regardless
of how receptive they thinkthey are or say they are and, you
know, apologizing for anyharm, any hurt I've caused, even
though they probably deny thatthey're vulnerable to hurt, would
(24:53):
probably be helpful in termsof just let it sink in. Just let
it lay the. You know, startlaying the groundwork. I mean, it's
like planting the seeds and,you know, watering the. Watering
the ground to work towards it.And then. And then I have some studying
to do around what would thislook like. And so, you know, definitely
this is the kind of workthat's done in mindfulness meditation
(25:16):
groups, you know, especiallywith my teachers, Tara Brock and
Jack Kornfield. So. So, yeah,so I look forward to this journey.
It's.
It's nice to have somethingthat. Well, to have some purpose
that is hopefully helpful to.To someone who's in pain.
All right. Yeah. That was agood one, though. I. I mean, obviously
(25:40):
I said offline, but I'm verygrateful that you were open and sharing
that experience, because Ithink that I know in my own. My own
experience sometimes sharingdeeply meaningful and personal experiences,
sharing them outwardly is arisk, I guess. Right. And it's a
risk. It's a risk that whoeveryou share it with might just tear
(26:02):
it apart and shut it down andtell you all the reasons why it isn't
a certain way. So, yeah, Ithink it's important that we share.
We, meaning humanity, sharesthese kinds of insights. I wrote
down a number of things. Someof them we've already kind of touched
on, but I think one of them,you know, you. The last thing you
kind of mentioned was alludingto not necessarily knowing what others
(26:24):
are going through or have gonethrough and whatever experiences
have brought them intowhatever being they are presenting
at the moment. And I thinkthat that idea gets presented, but
to really internalize thatidea and to be fortunate enough to
have experienced that in yourown life, like experience the understanding
(26:46):
or the. What's the word? I'mtrying to think. I'm trying not to
use insight, but, I mean, itis insight, but I feel like it's
whatever it is to actuallyexperience having a perception of
somebody and then having thatperception kind of crumble to the
ground because of a newawareness of things that you didn't
know that meaning or being. Tosay that if our intent is to present
(27:10):
ourselves in loving,compassion, acceptance, forgiveness,
and all those loving words tothe world, when we start having our
reactions to the events andthings that are happening around
us, being able to stop in themoment and remind ourselves that
we don't know, you know,somebody cuts us off. I don't know.
That person isn't rushing homefor something really important. Right.
(27:33):
And what they just did,ultimately, was very little as far
as a trespass on. On my own,you know, on me. But we let that
fire of injustice boil up, andit's reactive, as you said.
It's.
It's. There is some biologybehind it, but I also think it's.
It's a bit habitual. And thenI Think so. I thought so. You had
(27:55):
originally mentioned cultureand our culture of negativity and
then brought it back tothere's a biological impetus for
that. And what I see unfoldingin front of us is a bit of a manipulation
by the media, be it whoeverthe interested parties are, to leverage
that biological component andflood us in a way that, like, it
(28:18):
feels like everywhere youlook, you're being encouraged and
rewarded for falling down thatrabbit hole. And so it's natural
and biological for us to loveand to fear. Right? It is that dichotomy.
And we do have that choice.And what I heard you saying, and
I think I agree, is we'vereally fostered both externally through
(28:42):
our culture and alsointernally in our engagement with
that, the negative side. Andit. I had written down practice,
and you mentioned practice anumber of times, but it's like, it's
not a one and done thing.There's a reason why they call it
practice. Right. And we, wedon't go on a diet for a week and
then expect that. Oh, now I, Ifeel much better this week. Now I
(29:04):
know that. And I'll never fallvictim to the other way of thinking
ever again. I'll never pursuea gluttonous feeling for cake or
something like that. We allknow that's not true. And we need
to extend that compassion andunderstanding to ourselves in this
kind of work as well. Thatit's practiced for a reason. As we
(29:27):
practice it, we set ourintention. That's. That to me, is
the choice. That's the, thechoice that we originally make where
we set the intention. This isthe way we want to be. And then we
set on a path to continue topractice it. And as we practice it,
we get better and better atit. And you'll see eventually, hopefully,
you know, you, you would see.At least this is what I've heard
(29:48):
and I, I think you said it ononline was eventually, eventually,
if you practice enough and seethe, feel the effects and see the
effects of continuing to makechoices from a place of love that
(30:09):
eventually you kind of onlysee that or you only choose that,
and that ultimately is thatkind of heaven on earth.
Exactly. Or at the very least,you get a compensatory reflex.
Right.
So your negative reflex comes.And now you've trained yourself so
well that your positive reflexjust follows immediately upon that
(30:34):
and neutralize it so that youdon't experience the negativity.
It's there. Yep, it's there.That's, you know, the, the phrase
I always love is having teawith Mara. Mara shows up and you
just say, ah, come, let's havetea. That's your only response? It's
(30:55):
not oh, my God, or even shoo.I found a quote to what you said,
the beginning, about notknowing what people are going through.
So the poet Longfellow writes,if we could read the secret history
(31:15):
of our enemies, we should findin each man's life sorrow and suffering
enough to disarm all hishostility. Just exactly what I was
thinking when you said that.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm alsoreminded of a quote that I had read.
(31:36):
And of course, I don't thinkthis is a measured quote, but it
said something like 90% of thethings we worry about never happen.
Right. So we. We anticipatethis future thing and we stress.
And we experience that stressover and over and over again repeatedly.
And then in most cases, thatthing never actually comes to fruition.
Twain. There's a Twain.
(31:58):
Okay.
To that effect. I've had manytroubles in my life, most of which
never happened.
Right. And, you know, I thinkthat that's an important thing. And
I've. I've shared that withmy. With my daughter and my wife,
I think, a few times. And justwhen we're inclined to. That's not
to say we shouldn't beprepared, but that understanding
(32:21):
and having the awareness thatas we stress and elaborate on our
anticipated experience, thatwe do in fact end up having that
experience because we'restressed about it, in thinking about
it and whether it actuallyhappens or not, it did happen because
it happened inside of us.
(32:43):
And if we turn back to thebook, this is exactly what, you know,
one of the concepts in thebook, which, I mean, again, it's
one of those. Not universalconcept, but it's a widespread concept
of, you know, that which youpay attention to is what happens.
(33:05):
There's a Buddha quote ofthat, definitely. I think it's that.
That which you think youbecome. But more than that, this
idea of kind of attractingevents. Right. And if you're negative,
well, you create your world.Yeah, you create your world. And
so if you live in a hostileway, you will absolutely create a
(33:30):
hostile environment.
Right.
For yourself.
Right.
And, you know, I mean, even ifyou're not outwardly hostile, all
the things that you can do,you know, less. Less negative things
will still have those effects,and the positive things will have
(33:50):
those effects as well.
Right, right. You hadmentioned faith as far as doing this
work. And I was brought tothink of that, the converse of that
(34:12):
being that we have a fear ofassuredness, like we're embarking
on this with, I guess it goesback to the. Tied to the outcome,
right? Embarking on thisbecause the end result is or will
be in our brain. This is whatwe want to happen. Is whatever you
want happen. You know, the,that there's a reconciliation or
(34:37):
whatever it is that you're,that you're embarking on. That is
that fear of a. The fear ofassuredness, meaning I'm fearful
that the assuredness is notguaranteed and then become concerned
that I'm doing this. Butnothing will ever come of it or whatever
it may be. And the faith is,is to be able to move forward through
(35:01):
that. And ultimately, I think,and it's kind of been said that it
is assured if you, if yourintent remains the same and you continue
on the same path, you willbring into your experience the thing
that. Which you want. You cango ahead and just say whatever it
(35:25):
is.
So, yeah, I want to say acouple of things about faith because,
you know, if you're like me,faith can be a difficult word. If
you see yourself as a, youknow, rationalist. You know what
we're taught, we're using theword faith, but we're not using it
(35:48):
in the Christian sense oftrust in God. And I believe because
my God told me to believe.That's where I think a lot of people,
when you say faith, that'swhat they're thinking. And this is
a different kind of faith,really probably has parallels. But
(36:09):
this is what I would call arational faith. In fact, probably
the most rational way ofputting it without using the word
faith would be trust. Theprocess. You're engaged in a process
when you, when you select apractice based on some tradition
or even, say, based on, youknow, conversations with God, not
(36:32):
a tradition, but you'reselecting a process. You trust the
process. I'm going to work theprocess until I see some outcome.
And I guess the scariness islike you said, but what if I can't
see the outcome? So that'swhere, you know, in terms of having
(36:57):
faith, it's useful to haveexamples of success. And that's,
that's where, you know, atraditional faith can be helpful
because there are many writersfor the traditional faith that you
can read and say, oh, this iswhat they did. This is what happened
(37:19):
to them. So something with.Well, I mean, I'm sure there are
similar examples withconversation with God, but this is
where I'm getting comfortable.And I think we both kind of feel
like, you know, we're nottrying. We don't want to Promulgate
this book per se. We just wantto discuss how interesting it is.
(37:45):
But. But it is. Oh, that wassomething I was going to say, which
is, this volume doesn't seemto be very actionable, like. So I'm
expecting that comes later. Infact, I know it does because now
they have courses andworkbooks and. And things like that,
(38:08):
which, you know, so don't pickthis up thinking that you're gonna
have an actionable solution. Ithink it's a bunch of good ideas.
I think kind of defining apath for yourself based on this book
(38:28):
alone would be a challenge. Ithink, you know, I'm. I'm more comfortable
adding elements, adding theseideas to my practice because my practice
is established from atradition that has structure. Doesn't
(38:53):
he say something in here aboutstructure? And I know he says he
talks a lot about what we havebeen talking about institutions and
specifically institutionsdefending themselves, which. Did
you bring that in from here?
Yeah.
Okay. Okay.
But because it resonated withme and what I see in my experience.
(39:15):
Absolutely, absolutely. Okay.Sorry. That's all I had. Yep.
And I guess as far as justopening openness to receive information,
I guess that's part of whatsetting the intent and being ready
(39:41):
to receive information thatcomes your way. I guess to some degree
recognizing when you have anenlightenment experience or something
like that you were talkingabout. You know, people likely have
these events that occur intheir life, but based on either their
(40:03):
internal evolution and placewhere they are and the circumstances,
they may not be able toreally. I guess that's where the
ears, they hear and then kindof comes into place is to be in a
place or your judgmental. Thepart of you which is the biology
(40:23):
that is inclined to passjudgment, value judgment on events
and circumstances andmaterials to be able to relinquish
that enough to be able tohear. A gem of wisdom when it comes
to your ears and notimmediately, you know, knee jerk
reaction and throw it out.
Right. So. So a couple ofthings. I mean, an enlightenment
(40:47):
experience is a pretty bigdeal. Basically. You know, I think
they're pretty much alwaysassociated with sensations. Well,
physical. Physical sensations,either of lights or of bodily sensations.
(41:11):
So, you know, they're pretty.I'd say hard to miss, but.
But you could interpret it,but not.
Easy to interpret it. Right?Exactly. Exactly. So you might know
that you experiencedsomething, but think that you had
an illness. But the point Iwant to make is that there are many
(41:33):
other experiences which the.The author of the Householders Vinia
calls, I think moments ofclarity and I think this is kind
of referred to. This is likeone of the ideas in conversation
with God of I talk to you allthe time. You don't hear me. In terms
(42:01):
of moments of clarity, that'spaying attention essentially to miracles
of the mind, where your mindis behaving the way it should be
suddenly. And if we can payattention to it and recognize it
and not think, oh, that's justa weird thing, but say that's a thing
(42:22):
that I can develop that, thenthat is very key. And then the other
idea, which I, again, morefrom the book, more from conversations
with God, is just being awareof daily miracles, right? Like what
is miraculous in yourenvironment right now, you know,
(42:44):
but so that's all part of. Ofhaving. Developing this sensitivity.
And I guess the caveat is youcan't just decide to do it. Okay,
this is, this is where I thinkthat intent is not going to get you
(43:05):
very far to say, I'm going topay attention to little miracles.
I mean, yeah, for a littlewhile you can say, oh, look at that,
look at that. Oh, isn't thatinteresting? It's not going to last.
This is where you need to havea specific path and method.
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