August 24, 2025 • 27 mins
Jorge and Harry discuss a classic book about how to avoid getting in your own way through overthinking.
Show notes:
- The Inner Game of Tennis by Timothy Gallwey
- Stick (Apple TV show)
- Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig
- Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel
- Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
- Esther Dyson
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jorge (00:00):
My sensory apparatus is attuned to the affordances of
(00:04):
the vehicle and its environmentand the speed of the vehicle and
its environment and all this.
In some ways, I stop beingembodied as a human being and
become embodied as anautomobile.
Narrator (00:23):
You're listening to Traction Heroes, digging in to
get results with Harry Max andJorge Arango.
Jorge (00:33):
Hey, Harry, it's good to see you.
Harry (00:36):
It's good to see you, Jorge.
Always a pleasure I have to say.
Jorge (00:39):
It's a pleasure indeed.
I always welcome theseconversations.
Last time we spoke, we said thatit served as a way to shift
levels right from the mundaneeveryday work to thinking...
in some cases, thinking abouthow we're thinking, which so
many of these conversations tendto be about.
Harry (01:01):
Yeah, I can't wait to, to hear what you might have brought
today.
Jorge (01:07):
I think I would disappoint you and our listeners
if there was no reading that wewere bringing to the table.
Let me jump straight into itbecause this is a longer one
than usual, but, but I thinkit's worth bringing up.
Harry (01:24):
Fabulous.
Go for it, man.
Jorge (01:27):
"Reflect on the state of mind of a player who is said to
be hot or playing in the zone.
Is he thinking about how heshould hit each shot?
Is he thinking at all?
Listen to the phrases commonlyused to describe a player at his
best.
He's out of his mind.
(01:47):
He's playing over his head.
He's unconscious.
He doesn't know what he's doing.
The common factor in each ofthese descriptions is that some
part of the mind is not soactive.
Athletes in most sports usesimilar phrases, and the best of
them know that their peakperformance never comes when
they're thinking about it.
(02:09):
"Clearly to play unconsciouslydoes not mean to play without
consciousness.
That would be quite difficult.
In fact, someone playing out ofhis mind is more aware of the
ball, the court, and whennecessary, his opponent.
But he is not aware of givinghimself a lot of instructions,
thinking about how to hit theball, how to correct past
(02:33):
mistakes, or how to repeat whathe just did.
He is conscious but notthinking, not over trying." I
think I'll stop there.
Harry (02:47):
Wow, that's so cool and so true.
While I am far from athletic,even as simple as riding a
motorcycle, I know that at somepoint, at the highest speeds,
around the tightest turns, thatsimply being aware of everything
(03:11):
and letting my knowledge, myinternal intrinsic knowledge of
how to ride, guide what'shappening is the only way to
stay alive.
I'm super curious.
I don't believe I've read thebook that was in, but
immediately it reminded me ofOwen Wilson's new Apple TV show
(03:34):
Stick.
Jorge (03:35):
Oh, I have not seen that.
Harry (03:37):
I'm not a giant golf fan, but it's actually a great show
about golf.
What is the title of the book?
Jorge (03:46):
This is a classic book and and I think it's become a
classic for good reasons.
It's called The Inner Game ofTennis, the Classic Guide to the
Mental Side of Peak Performance,and it's by Timothy Gallwey.
Harry (04:03):
I have never read that book.
And of course, I've heard aboutit.
And on the heels of something wediscussed, I think a few weeks
ago, I think we were talkingabout Zen and the Art of
Motorcycle Maintenance at somepoint.
And that book was written asessentially a motorcyclist
(04:29):
response to Zen in the Art ofArchery, which is on a very
similar topic.
What led you to read this book?
What, prompted you to pick itup?
Jorge (04:41):
So, the first thing I'll say is I am not a tennis player.
I have played tennis in my life,but casually, right?
Not competitively or anythinglike that.
This book, I've seen itrecommended.
Yes, it's a guide for improvingyour tennis game, but it's one
(05:01):
of those books that, whilewritten originally for a
specific domain, it has taken ahold of reader's imaginations
well beyond that domain.
And the way that I wouldsummarize its appeal is it makes
a very clear and convincingargument for training yourself
(05:28):
to enter into mental states inwhich you are going to be
performing at your best.
And I, there's this concept offlow, I can never pronounce
the...
Csíkszentmihályi, I think is thename of the...
Harry (05:45):
I've heard it described as chick sent me high.
Jorge (05:49):
I have no idea.
But the way that I read whatGallwey is saying is you play
better tennis if you can getinto a state of flow.
He doesn't use phrase, right?
But you can play better tennisif you get into a state of flow.
But here's the tricky thing (06:08):
you can't will yourself to get into
a state of flow.
Harry (06:15):
Right.
Jorge (06:16):
And the more you think about it, the more you try, the
worse you're gonna do at it.
That's, to me, what is so trickyabout this.
And, we have these vernacularphrases, like you're
overthinking it, you're tryingtoo hard.
(06:36):
And I have found that in my ownlife, it's one of my
occupational hazards,overthinking things.
I become paralyzed.
There's this another vernacularphrase, right?
Analysis paralysis.
Harry (06:51):
Mm.
Jorge (06:52):
And out previous conversation before this one, we
talked about OODA loops andtightening OODA loops and I
think that this is related tothat.
This idea that if you overthinkwhatever it is that you're
doing, whether it's playingtennis or I would imagine,
(07:12):
flying a jet fighter, if you'rethinking too hard, you're not
going to be performing at yourbest.
And this book, the whole gist ishow to teach tennis players to
break out of the thinking abouthow to play better tennis so
(07:32):
that they can actually playbetter tennis.
Harry (07:37):
It reminded me of a couple of days ago I watched a
interview with Andrej Karpathy,the computer scientist, AI guy.
He used to work for Elon.
(07:57):
It was a really interestinginterview.
He was talking about hisworkflow.
And I've gotten keenlyinterested in how people go
through their days and how theyprioritize their time and
energy, and then whatspecifically do they do to
produce good work.
And he was talking about thefact that he only gets four or
(08:19):
five hours and no surprise, wehear about this a lot of really
productive work, but that theprocess that he engages in is
about loading the problem intohis mental RAM.
And he gets into that state offlow by having fully loaded the
(08:42):
problem into his mind so that hecan then process it both
consciously and unconsciously.
I don't know why, what you weresaying reminded me of that,
because of course he's notexplicitly talking about the
flow state and how flow istypically a result of having a
(09:03):
set of skills or capabilitiesand just exceeding them a little
bit with the challenge thatyou're facing, which is what
drags you kicking and screaminginto a flow state apparently,
according to, the book Flow.
But there was something I foundvery compelling about thinking
about having to like install aproblem space or a problem into
(09:30):
your mind entirely before youcan operate on it in the most
powerful way.
So I don't know, do they speakto any of that in the book, or
how do they talk about gettinginto that state?
Jorge (09:46):
They would not have used that in analogy in this book
because it was written in theearly 1970s, I wanna say.
So it was before personalcomputers were widespread or
whatever.
I'm looking here through mynotes.
I have a quote here.
"Can one learn to play out ofhis mind on purpose?
(10:12):
How can you be consciouslyunconscious?
It sounds like a contradictionin terms, yet this state can be
achieved.
Perhaps a better way to describea player who is unconscious is
by saying that his mind is soconcentrated, so focused, that
it is still.
It becomes one with what thebody is doing and the
(10:33):
unconscious or automaticfunctions are working without
interference from thoughts."
Harry (10:39):
Wow, that is really well put.
And that is exactly theexperience that I was referring
to earlier in our conversationtoday about my experience on a
motorcycle, which is there islike a unified state where
there's no thinking ahead of thebody.
The body and the mind are inalignment with the data that's
(11:01):
coming in.
And back to OODA loops, theobservation, orientation,
decisions, and actions, like allof that is happening and there
doesn't appear to be anyintentional thinking involved.
Jorge (11:16):
This is an experience that I think most people who
have driven for a long time haveprobably experienced, but it
just happened to me yesterdaybecause I had a pretty long
drive for about three hours.
And there is a moment whenyou're driving, if you have been
driving for a long time, thatyou get behind the wheel and you
(11:41):
become one with a car.
It's It's almost like my nervoussystem extends to the boundaries
of the car.
It's like, if the car hits bumpsor something, I feel it.
And my My sensory apparatus isattuned to the affordances of
(12:02):
the vehicle and its environmentand the speed of the vehicle and
its environment and all this.
In some ways, I stop beingembodied as a human being and
become embodied as anautomobile.
It's really weird, right?
Harry (12:18):
I totally know what you're talking about, and I've
had that experience.
What I'm trying to understand,and I'm struggling a little bit,
is I'm trying to understand howto apply this more directly to
my experiences as a leader or amanager or a participant on a
(12:40):
team.
Jorge (12:42):
A few conversations ago, you and I had a conversation
about being authentic andauthentically present.
And one idea that comes to mindnow in retrospect by putting it
against the light of this ideaof the, the inner game that
(13:03):
Gallwey talks about is thatsometimes when we are
interacting with other people,we have this internal monologue
playing out of all the thingsthat you need to keep in check.
It's like,"I can say this.
I can't say this.
I should say this.
I have this agenda." I am prearticulating the response that
(13:25):
I'm going to say next or I'mwriting a list of questions that
I want to ask this interviewsubject or what have you.
And an experience of interactingwith someone else where you are
subject to that level of mentalchatter, internal chatter, is
(13:48):
very different than theexperience of interacting with
someone where you are both trulyengaged in conversation.
At least it is for me.
And...
Harry (14:01):
i'm sorry, I interrupted.
Keep going.
Jorge (14:03):
No, go ahead.
Harry (14:05):
I just got all excited about it because I made the
conne...
I was struggling to betterunderstand it, and then you put
it into focus like that.
And, that was a moment where Iwasn't thinking about what I was
gonna say.
I was present to listening andparticipating in the
conversation with you and I gotso excited, I just blurted
(14:25):
something out and interruptedyou.
And thank you for beinggracious.
And it's like there's this placewhere you're just being, and in
that state of being, in beingpresent with somebody, it
doesn't require figuring out howyou're gonna answer the question
(14:47):
that they're asking.
It doesn't require that youabout what question you're gonna
ask them next.
It requires that you're presentand fully present.
And I think a lot of people,because I was trying to apply
this to myself, like if somebodyasks me a tough question, I
(15:10):
don't wanna appear stupid.
And so I want to respond quicklyand cogently and so I feel like
I need to do it...
if I don't take the time tothink through what my response
is gonna be while they're stilltalking, I might miss that
opportunity when they're donetalking.
(15:31):
And I'm getting ahead of myselfand actually I'm not listening
to what they're saying at theend.
It's like one of those testswhere the last instruction is to
not do all the work that you'reabout to do when you miss
reading the instruction.
I'm gonna stop there'cause I'mjust starting to ramble.
But I got excited about, yes,this is something that we can
(15:55):
apply in a very specific way tohuman interaction.
Jorge (16:00):
I think it's one way, right?
Just getting traction withanything, there comes a point
where you're going to have todeal with other people.
And at one level, like yes, yourrelationships with other people,
it is possible it is verycommon, I would argue to
overthink and to overthink toyour detriment, both of your
(16:23):
detriments.
That's one.
Another is, like I said, I'vestruggled for much of my life
with overthinking things, andone of the things that I'm
working on is trying to be moreof the kind of person...
there's a kind of person thatyou see them and you're like,
(16:45):
this person just knows what todo.
They're just naturally, theyknow how to respond in the
moment.
They just know what the rightthing to do is, and it seems to
come so natural to them.
And again, it might be the OODAloop thing again, that we talked
about last time, where if you'vejust had a lot of experience,
you've internalized theheuristics that make it possible
(17:07):
for you to respond appropriatelybased on the conditions as they
evolve sometimes very quickly.
And it's something that I aspireto is, when I'm in any kind of
work situation, to be able to bepresent and engaged with the
(17:30):
situation to a degree where mymental chatter is put on the
back burner or not even theresomehow.
Like, I'm engaged at a differentlevel.
I'm not like overly-processingthings, intellectualizing what
(17:50):
I'm hearing, thinkingconceptually about what the
thing is that needs doing andactually doing it and being in
it.
I think it's a different qualityof engagement and one that I
aspire to do.
And I think that when I lookback on my life and career, many
(18:14):
times when I've failed to gaintraction, it's been because I've
overthought things and I'vekinda gotten in my way.
So, it's just something that Ifind helpful to think about, not
thinking.
Harry (18:28):
This reminds me of a really funny story.
It was an expensive story, butit was a funny story.
This was back in year 2000, late2000, 2001, right?
It was the dot com boom, rightbefore it went bust, and I was
developing this, what I thoughtat the time, and I think other
(18:50):
people thought, was veryinnovative approach to online
interaction.
A company called Public Mindthat I created, founded, funded.
And I was doing the productdesign work and I had people
working with me and I hadopportunities to get venture
funding.
(19:11):
And I had shared what I wasworking on with Tim O'Reilly and
he introduced me to EstherDyson.
And Esther Dyson, for those ofyou who don't know, is just an
absolutely wondrous, brillianttechnologist who is also an
investor.
(19:32):
And I reached out to Esther andshe said,"Hey, I don't have time
to meet you on this particulartrip, but I need a ride from San
Francisco Airport, SFO, to toPalo Alto, where I'm having
dinner with somebody.
Would you mind picking me up?
And we can talk on the way andyou can tell me what you're
working on." And so, I was like,"Oh, that's so cool." So, I went
(19:56):
to SFO, I was there on time.
I picked her up, she got in thecar, we started talking and it
started out as small talk whereshe talked to me a little bit
about growing up with her fatherFreeman Dyson.
And I said,"Oh yeah, my dad wasa theoretical plasma physicist
too." And we just kept talkingand she would ask me questions
(20:20):
and I would answer them and Iwould ask her questions.
And, it was just this engagedconversation where the whole
time I was trying to figure outwhen I was gonna ask her if
there was a way she would investin the company, but I couldn't
quite figure out how to do it.
And I think what happened inthat conversation is I really
just wasn't very present tomyself or to what was really
(20:43):
going on.
Because we got to Palo Alto andI dropped her off at the
restaurant and she said it wasnice meeting you, and the door
closed and I was like,"I think Iforgot to ask her for the
money." I forgot to tell herwhat I was really working on.
Like I missed the whole thing.
And I haven't thought of thatexperience in quite some time,
(21:06):
but it was this briefinterstitial moment of probably
thirty minutes in a car togetherwith somebody where I was more,
I think, concerned about theimpression I was making and
trying to develop a sense ofcommon bond rather than being
(21:28):
clear and true to myself aboutwhy I was there, why she was
there, what we were trying toaccomplish.
And the moment passed.
And I've never forgotten thatmoment because now I realize
that it's these interstitialmoments that are often the
moment themselves.
It's like there isn't gonna be aperfect moment.
(21:49):
There isn't gonna be a meetingat an office.
There isn't gonna be a sit downover dinner.
It's gonna be in a walk fromhere to there, or a drive from
here to there.
And being really present to thatrequires a whole different level
of being.
(22:10):
And I don't know if that storymakes any sense at all to you,
but it came back to me as youwere talking with such clarity.
Jorge (22:19):
I think it's an excellent story because one might make the
mistake of thinking that whatwe're talking about here is
somehow like just going with theflow and becoming so immersed in
the situation that you just gowith it.
It sounds to me like maybe yes,maybe you were trying to impress
Esther Dyson, but maybe you werejust like fascinated by the
(22:41):
conversation and the parallelsthat you found in having your
dads being in the samediscipline or what have you.
So, it might be that you werejust like having a such a great
conversation that you forgot.
But that's not the point.
The point is, you still have anobjective.
(23:03):
Like, if you're playing tennis,like if you're gonna play tennis
competitively at your best, andagain, I'm not a big tennis
player, but I've played enoughto know that if you're trying to
win, that's a very different wayof being on the tennis court
than if you're just there tohave a good time, right?
(23:23):
You have an objective.
You wanna get the money, youwant to win the game, and the
question is, how can you bepresent enough to keep the goal
in mind without it consuming youby making you overthink things.
I think that's the key here.
It's like there has to be a way.
And for me, it's something thatI have to practice on an ongoing
(23:48):
basis is, how do I keep the goalpresent and working toward the
goal without it consuming thebrain cycles.
Harry (24:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, this is a rich space,because I definitely forgot what
game I was playing.
And it is a kind of game, whenyou're there with a potential
investor and you've got a goodintroduction and you're working
on something very innovative andpotentially very lucrative.
(24:22):
I think had I understood thatthere was a goal that I
really...
had I been on my game that whenthe car door shut, a very
different outcome would'veresulted from that.
Jorge (24:35):
I think that Gallwey would say that this is something
that one needs to train.
And I would agree with that.
There might be some people forwhom it comes more naturally
than others.
It doesn't for me.
And it's something that I'vedefinitely have had to work on.
And that's why I wanted to bringit to your attention, because I
(24:55):
think that if someone wants togain traction, this is a
dimension that they need toconsider: that it is possible to
be so focused and so obsessedabout the thing that you
overthink it.
And giving yourself the means toget out of your own way is also
an important part of it.
Harry (25:15):
You know, training, or maybe another way of thinking
about it is simulating, orsimulation.
Like, I had no idea that I wasengaged in an activity that
would've dramatically benefitedfrom simulation or training.
And I think maybe asking thequestion, I think back to one of
(25:37):
the conversations that we hadvery early about something being
unprecedented.
If you're stepping into anenvironment where you're looking
to achieve an outcome and youdon't have any real experience
there, that might be anopportunity to ask yourself,"Is
there some way I can bettertrain for this?
Or is there some way I cansimulate this environment and
(25:59):
get more comfortable than Imight otherwise be, such that it
doesn't unfold in a completelyhaphazard way?" So I really like
where you took that and pointedto the training idea, because
that really brings it home forme and makes it something that I
(26:21):
can do differently to get moretraction.
Jorge (26:26):
You have so many great recommendations from me, I was
glad to bring one that youhadn't seen before.
Harry (26:32):
I'm definitely gonna read that book and I'm really looking
forward to it.
Jorge (26:36):
It's worthwhile.
I think you'll appreciate it.
Narrator (26:40):
Thank you for listening to Traction Heroes
with Harry Max and Jorge Arango.
Check out the show notes attractionheroes.com and if you
enjoyed the show, please leaveus a rating in Apple's podcasts
app.
Thanks.
My sensory apparatus is attuned to the affordances of
(00:04):
the vehicle and its environmentand the speed of the vehicle and
its environment and all this.
In some ways, I stop beingembodied as a human being and
become embodied as anautomobile.
Narrator (00:23):
You're listening to Traction Heroes, digging in to
get results with Harry Max andJorge Arango.
Jorge (00:33):
Hey, Harry, it's good to see you.
Harry (00:36):
It's good to see you, Jorge.
Always a pleasure I have to say.
Jorge (00:39):
It's a pleasure indeed.
I always welcome theseconversations.
Last time we spoke, we said thatit served as a way to shift
levels right from the mundaneeveryday work to thinking...
in some cases, thinking abouthow we're thinking, which so
many of these conversations tendto be about.
Harry (01:01):
Yeah, I can't wait to, to hear what you might have brought
today.
Jorge (01:07):
I think I would disappoint you and our listeners
if there was no reading that wewere bringing to the table.
Let me jump straight into itbecause this is a longer one
than usual, but, but I thinkit's worth bringing up.
Harry (01:24):
Fabulous.
Go for it, man.
Jorge (01:27):
"Reflect on the state of mind of a player who is said to
be hot or playing in the zone.
Is he thinking about how heshould hit each shot?
Is he thinking at all?
Listen to the phrases commonlyused to describe a player at his
best.
He's out of his mind.
(01:47):
He's playing over his head.
He's unconscious.
He doesn't know what he's doing.
The common factor in each ofthese descriptions is that some
part of the mind is not soactive.
Athletes in most sports usesimilar phrases, and the best of
them know that their peakperformance never comes when
they're thinking about it.
(02:09):
"Clearly to play unconsciouslydoes not mean to play without
consciousness.
That would be quite difficult.
In fact, someone playing out ofhis mind is more aware of the
ball, the court, and whennecessary, his opponent.
But he is not aware of givinghimself a lot of instructions,
thinking about how to hit theball, how to correct past
(02:33):
mistakes, or how to repeat whathe just did.
He is conscious but notthinking, not over trying." I
think I'll stop there.
Harry (02:47):
Wow, that's so cool and so true.
While I am far from athletic,even as simple as riding a
motorcycle, I know that at somepoint, at the highest speeds,
around the tightest turns, thatsimply being aware of everything
(03:11):
and letting my knowledge, myinternal intrinsic knowledge of
how to ride, guide what'shappening is the only way to
stay alive.
I'm super curious.
I don't believe I've read thebook that was in, but
immediately it reminded me ofOwen Wilson's new Apple TV show
(03:34):
Stick.
Jorge (03:35):
Oh, I have not seen that.
Harry (03:37):
I'm not a giant golf fan, but it's actually a great show
about golf.
What is the title of the book?
Jorge (03:46):
This is a classic book and and I think it's become a
classic for good reasons.
It's called The Inner Game ofTennis, the Classic Guide to the
Mental Side of Peak Performance,and it's by Timothy Gallwey.
Harry (04:03):
I have never read that book.
And of course, I've heard aboutit.
And on the heels of something wediscussed, I think a few weeks
ago, I think we were talkingabout Zen and the Art of
Motorcycle Maintenance at somepoint.
And that book was written asessentially a motorcyclist
(04:29):
response to Zen in the Art ofArchery, which is on a very
similar topic.
What led you to read this book?
What, prompted you to pick itup?
Jorge (04:41):
So, the first thing I'll say is I am not a tennis player.
I have played tennis in my life,but casually, right?
Not competitively or anythinglike that.
This book, I've seen itrecommended.
Yes, it's a guide for improvingyour tennis game, but it's one
(05:01):
of those books that, whilewritten originally for a
specific domain, it has taken ahold of reader's imaginations
well beyond that domain.
And the way that I wouldsummarize its appeal is it makes
a very clear and convincingargument for training yourself
(05:28):
to enter into mental states inwhich you are going to be
performing at your best.
And I, there's this concept offlow, I can never pronounce
the...
Csíkszentmihályi, I think is thename of the...
Harry (05:45):
I've heard it described as chick sent me high.
Jorge (05:49):
I have no idea.
But the way that I read whatGallwey is saying is you play
better tennis if you can getinto a state of flow.
He doesn't use phrase, right?
But you can play better tennisif you get into a state of flow.
But here's the tricky thing (06:08):
you can't will yourself to get into
a state of flow.
Harry (06:15):
Right.
Jorge (06:16):
And the more you think about it, the more you try, the
worse you're gonna do at it.
That's, to me, what is so trickyabout this.
And, we have these vernacularphrases, like you're
overthinking it, you're tryingtoo hard.
(06:36):
And I have found that in my ownlife, it's one of my
occupational hazards,overthinking things.
I become paralyzed.
There's this another vernacularphrase, right?
Analysis paralysis.
Harry (06:51):
Mm.
Jorge (06:52):
And out previous conversation before this one, we
talked about OODA loops andtightening OODA loops and I
think that this is related tothat.
This idea that if you overthinkwhatever it is that you're
doing, whether it's playingtennis or I would imagine,
(07:12):
flying a jet fighter, if you'rethinking too hard, you're not
going to be performing at yourbest.
And this book, the whole gist ishow to teach tennis players to
break out of the thinking abouthow to play better tennis so
(07:32):
that they can actually playbetter tennis.
Harry (07:37):
It reminded me of a couple of days ago I watched a
interview with Andrej Karpathy,the computer scientist, AI guy.
He used to work for Elon.
(07:57):
It was a really interestinginterview.
He was talking about hisworkflow.
And I've gotten keenlyinterested in how people go
through their days and how theyprioritize their time and
energy, and then whatspecifically do they do to
produce good work.
And he was talking about thefact that he only gets four or
(08:19):
five hours and no surprise, wehear about this a lot of really
productive work, but that theprocess that he engages in is
about loading the problem intohis mental RAM.
And he gets into that state offlow by having fully loaded the
(08:42):
problem into his mind so that hecan then process it both
consciously and unconsciously.
I don't know why, what you weresaying reminded me of that,
because of course he's notexplicitly talking about the
flow state and how flow istypically a result of having a
(09:03):
set of skills or capabilitiesand just exceeding them a little
bit with the challenge thatyou're facing, which is what
drags you kicking and screaminginto a flow state apparently,
according to, the book Flow.
But there was something I foundvery compelling about thinking
about having to like install aproblem space or a problem into
(09:30):
your mind entirely before youcan operate on it in the most
powerful way.
So I don't know, do they speakto any of that in the book, or
how do they talk about gettinginto that state?
Jorge (09:46):
They would not have used that in analogy in this book
because it was written in theearly 1970s, I wanna say.
So it was before personalcomputers were widespread or
whatever.
I'm looking here through mynotes.
I have a quote here.
"Can one learn to play out ofhis mind on purpose?
(10:12):
How can you be consciouslyunconscious?
It sounds like a contradictionin terms, yet this state can be
achieved.
Perhaps a better way to describea player who is unconscious is
by saying that his mind is soconcentrated, so focused, that
it is still.
It becomes one with what thebody is doing and the
(10:33):
unconscious or automaticfunctions are working without
interference from thoughts."
Harry (10:39):
Wow, that is really well put.
And that is exactly theexperience that I was referring
to earlier in our conversationtoday about my experience on a
motorcycle, which is there islike a unified state where
there's no thinking ahead of thebody.
The body and the mind are inalignment with the data that's
(11:01):
coming in.
And back to OODA loops, theobservation, orientation,
decisions, and actions, like allof that is happening and there
doesn't appear to be anyintentional thinking involved.
Jorge (11:16):
This is an experience that I think most people who
have driven for a long time haveprobably experienced, but it
just happened to me yesterdaybecause I had a pretty long
drive for about three hours.
And there is a moment whenyou're driving, if you have been
driving for a long time, thatyou get behind the wheel and you
(11:41):
become one with a car.
It's It's almost like my nervoussystem extends to the boundaries
of the car.
It's like, if the car hits bumpsor something, I feel it.
And my My sensory apparatus isattuned to the affordances of
(12:02):
the vehicle and its environmentand the speed of the vehicle and
its environment and all this.
In some ways, I stop beingembodied as a human being and
become embodied as anautomobile.
It's really weird, right?
Harry (12:18):
I totally know what you're talking about, and I've
had that experience.
What I'm trying to understand,and I'm struggling a little bit,
is I'm trying to understand howto apply this more directly to
my experiences as a leader or amanager or a participant on a
(12:40):
team.
Jorge (12:42):
A few conversations ago, you and I had a conversation
about being authentic andauthentically present.
And one idea that comes to mindnow in retrospect by putting it
against the light of this ideaof the, the inner game that
(13:03):
Gallwey talks about is thatsometimes when we are
interacting with other people,we have this internal monologue
playing out of all the thingsthat you need to keep in check.
It's like,"I can say this.
I can't say this.
I should say this.
I have this agenda." I am prearticulating the response that
(13:25):
I'm going to say next or I'mwriting a list of questions that
I want to ask this interviewsubject or what have you.
And an experience of interactingwith someone else where you are
subject to that level of mentalchatter, internal chatter, is
(13:48):
very different than theexperience of interacting with
someone where you are both trulyengaged in conversation.
At least it is for me.
And...
Harry (14:01):
i'm sorry, I interrupted.
Keep going.
Jorge (14:03):
No, go ahead.
Harry (14:05):
I just got all excited about it because I made the
conne...
I was struggling to betterunderstand it, and then you put
it into focus like that.
And, that was a moment where Iwasn't thinking about what I was
gonna say.
I was present to listening andparticipating in the
conversation with you and I gotso excited, I just blurted
(14:25):
something out and interruptedyou.
And thank you for beinggracious.
And it's like there's this placewhere you're just being, and in
that state of being, in beingpresent with somebody, it
doesn't require figuring out howyou're gonna answer the question
(14:47):
that they're asking.
It doesn't require that youabout what question you're gonna
ask them next.
It requires that you're presentand fully present.
And I think a lot of people,because I was trying to apply
this to myself, like if somebodyasks me a tough question, I
(15:10):
don't wanna appear stupid.
And so I want to respond quicklyand cogently and so I feel like
I need to do it...
if I don't take the time tothink through what my response
is gonna be while they're stilltalking, I might miss that
opportunity when they're donetalking.
(15:31):
And I'm getting ahead of myselfand actually I'm not listening
to what they're saying at theend.
It's like one of those testswhere the last instruction is to
not do all the work that you'reabout to do when you miss
reading the instruction.
I'm gonna stop there'cause I'mjust starting to ramble.
But I got excited about, yes,this is something that we can
(15:55):
apply in a very specific way tohuman interaction.
Jorge (16:00):
I think it's one way, right?
Just getting traction withanything, there comes a point
where you're going to have todeal with other people.
And at one level, like yes, yourrelationships with other people,
it is possible it is verycommon, I would argue to
overthink and to overthink toyour detriment, both of your
(16:23):
detriments.
That's one.
Another is, like I said, I'vestruggled for much of my life
with overthinking things, andone of the things that I'm
working on is trying to be moreof the kind of person...
there's a kind of person thatyou see them and you're like,
(16:45):
this person just knows what todo.
They're just naturally, theyknow how to respond in the
moment.
They just know what the rightthing to do is, and it seems to
come so natural to them.
And again, it might be the OODAloop thing again, that we talked
about last time, where if you'vejust had a lot of experience,
you've internalized theheuristics that make it possible
(17:07):
for you to respond appropriatelybased on the conditions as they
evolve sometimes very quickly.
And it's something that I aspireto is, when I'm in any kind of
work situation, to be able to bepresent and engaged with the
(17:30):
situation to a degree where mymental chatter is put on the
back burner or not even theresomehow.
Like, I'm engaged at a differentlevel.
I'm not like overly-processingthings, intellectualizing what
(17:50):
I'm hearing, thinkingconceptually about what the
thing is that needs doing andactually doing it and being in
it.
I think it's a different qualityof engagement and one that I
aspire to do.
And I think that when I lookback on my life and career, many
(18:14):
times when I've failed to gaintraction, it's been because I've
overthought things and I'vekinda gotten in my way.
So, it's just something that Ifind helpful to think about, not
thinking.
Harry (18:28):
This reminds me of a really funny story.
It was an expensive story, butit was a funny story.
This was back in year 2000, late2000, 2001, right?
It was the dot com boom, rightbefore it went bust, and I was
developing this, what I thoughtat the time, and I think other
(18:50):
people thought, was veryinnovative approach to online
interaction.
A company called Public Mindthat I created, founded, funded.
And I was doing the productdesign work and I had people
working with me and I hadopportunities to get venture
funding.
(19:11):
And I had shared what I wasworking on with Tim O'Reilly and
he introduced me to EstherDyson.
And Esther Dyson, for those ofyou who don't know, is just an
absolutely wondrous, brillianttechnologist who is also an
investor.
(19:32):
And I reached out to Esther andshe said,"Hey, I don't have time
to meet you on this particulartrip, but I need a ride from San
Francisco Airport, SFO, to toPalo Alto, where I'm having
dinner with somebody.
Would you mind picking me up?
And we can talk on the way andyou can tell me what you're
working on." And so, I was like,"Oh, that's so cool." So, I went
(19:56):
to SFO, I was there on time.
I picked her up, she got in thecar, we started talking and it
started out as small talk whereshe talked to me a little bit
about growing up with her fatherFreeman Dyson.
And I said,"Oh yeah, my dad wasa theoretical plasma physicist
too." And we just kept talkingand she would ask me questions
(20:20):
and I would answer them and Iwould ask her questions.
And, it was just this engagedconversation where the whole
time I was trying to figure outwhen I was gonna ask her if
there was a way she would investin the company, but I couldn't
quite figure out how to do it.
And I think what happened inthat conversation is I really
just wasn't very present tomyself or to what was really
(20:43):
going on.
Because we got to Palo Alto andI dropped her off at the
restaurant and she said it wasnice meeting you, and the door
closed and I was like,"I think Iforgot to ask her for the
money." I forgot to tell herwhat I was really working on.
Like I missed the whole thing.
And I haven't thought of thatexperience in quite some time,
(21:06):
but it was this briefinterstitial moment of probably
thirty minutes in a car togetherwith somebody where I was more,
I think, concerned about theimpression I was making and
trying to develop a sense ofcommon bond rather than being
(21:28):
clear and true to myself aboutwhy I was there, why she was
there, what we were trying toaccomplish.
And the moment passed.
And I've never forgotten thatmoment because now I realize
that it's these interstitialmoments that are often the
moment themselves.
It's like there isn't gonna be aperfect moment.
(21:49):
There isn't gonna be a meetingat an office.
There isn't gonna be a sit downover dinner.
It's gonna be in a walk fromhere to there, or a drive from
here to there.
And being really present to thatrequires a whole different level
of being.
(22:10):
And I don't know if that storymakes any sense at all to you,
but it came back to me as youwere talking with such clarity.
Jorge (22:19):
I think it's an excellent story because one might make the
mistake of thinking that whatwe're talking about here is
somehow like just going with theflow and becoming so immersed in
the situation that you just gowith it.
It sounds to me like maybe yes,maybe you were trying to impress
Esther Dyson, but maybe you werejust like fascinated by the
(22:41):
conversation and the parallelsthat you found in having your
dads being in the samediscipline or what have you.
So, it might be that you werejust like having a such a great
conversation that you forgot.
But that's not the point.
The point is, you still have anobjective.
(23:03):
Like, if you're playing tennis,like if you're gonna play tennis
competitively at your best, andagain, I'm not a big tennis
player, but I've played enoughto know that if you're trying to
win, that's a very different wayof being on the tennis court
than if you're just there tohave a good time, right?
(23:23):
You have an objective.
You wanna get the money, youwant to win the game, and the
question is, how can you bepresent enough to keep the goal
in mind without it consuming youby making you overthink things.
I think that's the key here.
It's like there has to be a way.
And for me, it's something thatI have to practice on an ongoing
(23:48):
basis is, how do I keep the goalpresent and working toward the
goal without it consuming thebrain cycles.
Harry (24:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, this is a rich space,because I definitely forgot what
game I was playing.
And it is a kind of game, whenyou're there with a potential
investor and you've got a goodintroduction and you're working
on something very innovative andpotentially very lucrative.
(24:22):
I think had I understood thatthere was a goal that I
really...
had I been on my game that whenthe car door shut, a very
different outcome would'veresulted from that.
Jorge (24:35):
I think that Gallwey would say that this is something
that one needs to train.
And I would agree with that.
There might be some people forwhom it comes more naturally
than others.
It doesn't for me.
And it's something that I'vedefinitely have had to work on.
And that's why I wanted to bringit to your attention, because I
(24:55):
think that if someone wants togain traction, this is a
dimension that they need toconsider: that it is possible to
be so focused and so obsessedabout the thing that you
overthink it.
And giving yourself the means toget out of your own way is also
an important part of it.
Harry (25:15):
You know, training, or maybe another way of thinking
about it is simulating, orsimulation.
Like, I had no idea that I wasengaged in an activity that
would've dramatically benefitedfrom simulation or training.
And I think maybe asking thequestion, I think back to one of
(25:37):
the conversations that we hadvery early about something being
unprecedented.
If you're stepping into anenvironment where you're looking
to achieve an outcome and youdon't have any real experience
there, that might be anopportunity to ask yourself,"Is
there some way I can bettertrain for this?
Or is there some way I cansimulate this environment and
(25:59):
get more comfortable than Imight otherwise be, such that it
doesn't unfold in a completelyhaphazard way?" So I really like
where you took that and pointedto the training idea, because
that really brings it home forme and makes it something that I
(26:21):
can do differently to get moretraction.
Jorge (26:26):
You have so many great recommendations from me, I was
glad to bring one that youhadn't seen before.
Harry (26:32):
I'm definitely gonna read that book and I'm really looking
forward to it.
Jorge (26:36):
It's worthwhile.
I think you'll appreciate it.
Narrator (26:40):
Thank you for listening to Traction Heroes
with Harry Max and Jorge Arango.
Check out the show notes attractionheroes.com and if you
enjoyed the show, please leaveus a rating in Apple's podcasts
app.
Thanks.
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