June 29, 2025 • 20 mins
Harry gives Jorge advice on how to focus on strategically important things.
Show notes:
- The ONE Thing by Gary Keller and Jay Papasan
- unfinishe_ – Jorge's new consultancy with Greg Petroff
- The Power of a Positive No by William Ury
- The Harry Max Boot-up Protocol (How to get going in the morning) by Christina Wodtke
- Essentialism by Greg McKeown
- Impro by Keith Johnstone
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Harry (00:00):
I'm probably the poster child for procrastination on
(00:03):
some level.
But I think understanding what'smost important, which is really
the functional definition ofhaving a priority, that and the
process of getting there, thosebecome your inputs to your plans
and your decisions and thoseplans and decisions are what
(00:26):
allow you to become moreproductive.
Narrator (00:34):
You're listening to Traction Heroes.
Digging In to Get Results withHarry Max and Jorge Arango.
Jorge (00:44):
Hey, Harry.
Good to see you.
Harry (00:46):
Ah, excellent to see you, Jorge.
You look great today.
Jorge (00:49):
So do you! You're wearing one of my favorite colors,
purple.
Harry (00:53):
Yeah, I wear this because some of my clients call me a
wizard.
I'm at a client site today, soI'm wearing my wizard shirt.
Jorge (01:03):
Last time we met, we mentioned this change that I'm
going through with this newconsultancy that I've launched.
And I've been revisiting somebooks that have influenced me in
one way or another and I'vebrought a reading from one of
them to share with you'cause Iwould love to hear your thoughts
(01:25):
on it.
Harry (01:26):
Oh, I'm really looking forward to it.
Surprise me, man.
Let's do it.
Jorge (01:30):
Alright, so this is not very long, but let's see how it
goes.
"If everyone has the same numberof hours in a day, why do some
people seem to get so much moredone than others?
How do they do more, achievemore, earn more, have more?
(01:51):
If time is the currency ofachievement, then why are some
able to cash in on theirallotment for more chips than
others?
The answer is they make gettingto the heart of things the heart
of their approach.
They go small.
"When you want the absolute bestchance to succeed at anything
(02:14):
you want, your approach shouldalways be the same.
Go small.
"'Going small' is ignoring allthe things you could do and
doing what you should do.
It's recognizing that not allthings matter equally and
finding the things that mattermost.
(02:38):
It's a tighter way to connectwhat you do with what you want.
It's realizing thatextraordinary results are
directly determined by hownarrow you can make your focus."
Harry (02:52):
I love that, number one.
Number two, I wish I'd writtenit.
Number three, I feel like Ishould have read it because of
my interest in prioritization,but I don't recall ever having
read it, which leads me towonder if it's one of the book
books on habits.
Jorge (03:13):
It's not a book on habits.
This is the focus of this book,it's focus, and it's called The
ONE Thing.
The subtitle is The SurprisinglySimple Truth Behind
Extraordinary Results, and it'sby Gary Keller with Jay Papasan.
I think that's how that'spronounced.
Harry (03:34):
Now, the crazy thing is I have read that book, but I did
not remember that piece of it.
And I loved that book and I'verecommended it countless times,
so I'm so glad you brought itinto the foreground and actually
prompted me to realize that I'dforgotten just how good that
(03:57):
book was.
Jorge (03:59):
Yeah.
I only read it for the firsttime toward the end of last year
as I was pondering all thesechanges that I'm now rolling out
and I was thinking,"I am gonnashift my focus." And one of the
hard things about shifting focusand this is why I wanted to talk
about this book and about theseideas in general is that when
(04:19):
you've been doing something fora long time, your attention is
on those things.
And then if you're going to makea pivot or change, move in a
different direction, if you wantto have any kind of impact, you
have to devote more of yourattention in that direction.
And the question is, how do youmanage that?
(04:41):
And this is something that I,expect that you have thoughts
on, given your work onprioritization.
But I'll give you just a veryvivid example of that and
hopefully get your advice.
This is like free coaching thatI'm doing with this, with
today's session here.
So, I recently turned down theopportunity to estimate a
(05:08):
project that would've been thesort of thing that I would've
done in the past, right?
So it's like a classicinformation architecture design
project.
And I'm in a period right nowwhere I'm really busy and the
(05:28):
prospect needed a very quickturnaround and I wasn't gonna be
able to do it justice.
So that's a big part of myturning it down.
But another reason why I turnedit down is that I want to make
more space for the kind of workthat Greg and I are gonna be
doing in this consultancy.
And that is a different focusthan the focus that I've had in
(05:50):
the past.
But it's not an easy thing todo.
I think Andy Warhol used to saythat someone has to bring home
the bacon, right?
So it's so, it's, tricky, right?
Because on the one hand, I needprojects.
I've been, so far, a UX designconsultant focused on
information architecture.
(06:11):
And where do you draw the lineand how do you make that
transition?
And how do you focus on the onething while you are...
how do you change the tires on acar that's in motion, basically?
Harry (06:27):
It is funny, so much of the work that I've done in
prioritization is a result ofhaving been involved in complex
replatforming and transitionalprojects, and I think it's
really informed a lot of thephilosophy that's gone into my
thinking around this.
But, you know, what do they sayabout strategy?
If we had all the resources inthe world, and all the time in
the world, we would just doeverything, right?
(06:49):
But we don't, and therefore wehave to learn how to say no or
not yet to a set of things sothat we can say yes to the thing
that's even more important.
And William Ury wrote a bookcalled The Power of a Positive
No, which was instrumental insome of my early thinking.
(07:11):
And, in fact, mutual colleaguesand friends of ours, i've
recommended this book to so manypeople because it gives you a
set of techniques for saying noin a way that is respectful and
honors the intent behind whatsomebody's asking you to do or
(07:33):
to pay attention to, but is evenmore respectful of whatever it
is that's even more importantpossibly to them and certainly
to you and figuring out how tosay,"yes and it will require all
(07:53):
these additional resources" or"Yes, and you'll need to bring
in this other person or this newset of tools'cause I'm no longer
available." Like, what is theway to say no becomes part of
the challenge.
It's not just saying it, but howdo you say it.
And the other thing that I wasthinking of when you brought
(08:16):
this up is, I interviewed a lotof people senior people who were
extremely good at gettingamazing things, reaching amazing
goals, and doing incrediblethings.
And one of the key ideas thatcame out among all of these
(08:39):
interviewees, and it's builtinto chapter nine in my book, is
that, if you have a periodicprioritization process or a
habit or something that you doon a frequent basis to reset how
it is you're gonna approachwhere you're placing your
(09:01):
attention, one particularlypotent way to do that is to make
sure in that periodic practicethat you always attend to
whatever your strategic goal isby looking at the smallest, most
(09:23):
actionable, responsible step youcan take to pursue it, and just
do that.
And if you do that regularly,what will happen is eventually
you'll either achieve thatparticular goal or you will have
executed a transition into whatthat focus was, right?
(09:44):
And so, that morning bootroutine, which Christina Wodtke
documented so many years ago onher Elegant Hack blog and then
it got codified again andupdated in my book is a pattern
that says, the first, thing youneed to do is identify what
you're avoiding and then attackthat.
(10:06):
And the second thing you need todo is attend to whatever the
item is with the highest cost ofdelay, that is to say, the
longer you weigh, the morepainful or expensive it's gonna
get.
But the third element there ismaking sure that you've got your
top goal or your primary area ofinvestment clear enough so that
(10:29):
you can pinpoint just the nextthing that needs your attention
and continue chipping away atthat.
Because what happens is it maystart very small, but over time
it becomes a very largepercentage of where your
attention and time, energy, andeffort can go.
Jorge (10:46):
The, thought that comes to mind there is that old joke
about how do you eat anelephant?
One bite at a time, right?
Harry (10:54):
In effect, I've just never been a big fan of killing
or eating elephants.
Jorge (10:59):
I know, neither am I.
I've never, partaken of elephantmeat.
In the book, I wanna circle backto The ONE Thing because, like I
said, I read it last year and Imade some notes then, but I
revisited it now in preparationof this conversation.
And the authors outline a listof what they call four thieves
(11:28):
of productivity.
And, I just wanted to call outthat the very first one on the
list is something that you'vebrought up here, which is the
inability to say no.
And that's something that I'vehad to work on for myself.
One of my deficits.
(11:49):
I would say it like this, one ofmy character flaws is that I am
one of these people who likes toplease people.
And it's really hard for me todo things that I feel are going
to let people down.
And often what that results inis my over committing to things.
(12:10):
So, I feel like this is not justan opportunity for me to try
this new direction, but also ifI'm conscious of the fact, that
that is an issue with me, thisis an opportunity for me to flex
the no-saying muscle.
And, and I just wanted to, puta...
(12:33):
not a hack, but like asuggestion out there, in
preparation for writing myresponse to this prospect who
was asking for my services, Iused chat GPT to engage on a
dialogue about how do I craft aresponse that is respectful of
what the prospect is asking for,of the conversation that we've
(12:56):
had so far, but also that helpsme draw certain boundaries
around my time and my interest.
And I found that really usefulbecause it it allowed me to
think about what I was going tosay from a position that would
not have come naturally to me.
It allowed me to de-centermyself.
Harry (13:21):
Figuring out how to dissociate and move outside of
yourself to look at thesituation and using a tool like
ChatGPT to give you thatperspective is an oddly powerful
way of doing that.
Hadn't considered that specificapplication and why it's so
(13:42):
valuable.
Three things came to mind.
Number one is that, when youbrought this up, I had forgotten
that, for me, there's a veryhard line I draw between
productivity and prioritization.
And I am definitely not aproductivity guru, nor am I a
(14:05):
productivity expert.
In fact, I'm probably the posterchild for procrastination on
some level.
But I think understanding what'smost important, which is really
the functional definition ofhaving a priority, that and the
process of getting there, thosebecome your inputs to your plans
(14:28):
and your decisions and thoseplans and decisions are what
allow you to become moreproductive.
The next thing that popped intomy head was that the term
priority....
I mentioned this, Keller in hisbook might have mentioned this,
(14:51):
but I know I mentioned it in mybook, and I know, I think Greg
McKeown in his book Essentialismbrought this to my attention, is
that the word priorityhistorically wasn't plural, it
was singular, right?
There were no such things aspriorities, that's a more modern
construct.
(15:12):
And the fact is, we havepriorities now because we have
multiple priorities in differentcategories.
Because in a singular categoryso, for example, things you need
to get done there actually isonly one priority, and that's
the thing at the top of thelist.
And that thing at the top of thelist isn't necessarily telling
(15:33):
you have to do that, it'stelling you where to put your
attention so you can make a gooddecision, a good choice.
It's your best option among thegood ones rather than, as my
friend Scott Sulliver says, yourleast bad one among the less
good ones.
And then, I was reflecting onwhat we spoke about a few
minutes ago when I said yes andas a vehicle for saying no.
(15:57):
And that came out of the KeithJohnstone work on improv.
He wrote a book called Impro.
And if you've ever studiedimprov, and I suspect you have,
where you've learned how toparticipate in an improv
session, or improv game, orimprov show.
Certainly the most popular andeasy to remember principles of
improv is the yes and directive,which is, in improv, you never
(16:23):
say no because it creates stopenergy.
You say yes and, and then youqualify it in order to put
whatever qualification is gonnabe necessary to keep the story
going.
And so, the idea of looking atUry's work in the power of a
(16:44):
positive no, and then linkingthat to this improv technique,
which is so powerful, even ifyou don't say it like yes and,
you can ask me to do something,and I can go,"That's a distinct
possibility." What I wasthinking was, that's a version
of yes and right.
(17:05):
There are lots of different waysof invoking yes and without
saying no, N-O.
So, I really related to yourcomment about pleasing people
because, funny, in anotherconversation you and I were
talking about neurolinguisticprogramming, NLP, and
(17:31):
interestingly, one of the mostsenior teachers or instructors
in my NLP training said to me,"You know what your problem is,
Harry?" And I was like,"What?"He said,"You don't know how to
say no." And I was like,"What doyou mean I don't know how to say
no?" And he said,"Give me tenphrases that mean no." And I
couldn't come up with two.
(17:52):
And he said,"Your homework forthe next week is to come up with
a hundred different ways ofsaying no without using the word
no." And that was my homework.
And that's where I came up withall sorts of clever little well,
I thought they were cleverlittle things but if we're ever
in a meeting together andsomebody says something and you
hear me say,"I'm confused," whatthat actually means is NFW.
(18:21):
That's my stop word for myselfto remember that I'm not allowed
to say no.
I have to reorient theconversation and move it forward
in a more productive way.
And that came out of that workin NLP where my instructor said
I needed better ways of sayingno.
I might suggest to you that a)you pick up a copy of William
Ury's book just because it's notlike you need to read the whole
(18:44):
book, it's way too many pagesthat cover the same concept.
You know, how to say yes tosomething bigger and more
important by somehow gracefullysaying no to the thing that
would prevent that from beingtrue.
And then maybe spend the time tocome up with a hundred different
ways to say no, and then picktwo or three that really work
(19:07):
for you or that, and then try'emout.
Run an experiment.
See how people react to'em.
Jorge (19:12):
That's great suggestion.
I'm gonna check it out.
We're coming to the end of ourtime here and I realize that
I've already read a passage froma book today.
But hearing you say this broughtto mind one of my favorite
quotes of all time, and I'mgonna read it to you.
This is from Steve Jobs, and hesaid,"People think focus means
(19:33):
saying yes to the thing you'vegot to focus on, but that's not
what it means at all.
It means saying no to thehundred other good ideas that
there are.
You have to pick carefully.
I'm actually as proud of thethings we haven't done as the
things I have done.
Innovation is saying no to athousand things."
Harry (19:54):
I love that.
Jorge (19:56):
Yeah, I, think that's spot on and it's making me feel
better about my having said no.
Harry (20:06):
These conversations are so enlivening.
My whole day is better every daywe talk.
Jorge (20:11):
Same here.
Thank you so much for makingtime for it, Harry.
Harry (20:14):
I really appreciate it.
Thanks Jorge.
Narrator (20:22):
Thank you for listening to Traction Heroes
with Harry Max and Jorge Arango.
Check out the show notes attractionheroes.com and if you
enjoyed the show, please leaveus a rating in Apple's podcasts
app.
Thanks.
I'm probably the poster child for procrastination on
(00:03):
some level.
But I think understanding what'smost important, which is really
the functional definition ofhaving a priority, that and the
process of getting there, thosebecome your inputs to your plans
and your decisions and thoseplans and decisions are what
(00:26):
allow you to become moreproductive.
Narrator (00:34):
You're listening to Traction Heroes.
Digging In to Get Results withHarry Max and Jorge Arango.
Jorge (00:44):
Hey, Harry.
Good to see you.
Harry (00:46):
Ah, excellent to see you, Jorge.
You look great today.
Jorge (00:49):
So do you! You're wearing one of my favorite colors,
purple.
Harry (00:53):
Yeah, I wear this because some of my clients call me a
wizard.
I'm at a client site today, soI'm wearing my wizard shirt.
Jorge (01:03):
Last time we met, we mentioned this change that I'm
going through with this newconsultancy that I've launched.
And I've been revisiting somebooks that have influenced me in
one way or another and I'vebrought a reading from one of
them to share with you'cause Iwould love to hear your thoughts
(01:25):
on it.
Harry (01:26):
Oh, I'm really looking forward to it.
Surprise me, man.
Let's do it.
Jorge (01:30):
Alright, so this is not very long, but let's see how it
goes.
"If everyone has the same numberof hours in a day, why do some
people seem to get so much moredone than others?
How do they do more, achievemore, earn more, have more?
(01:51):
If time is the currency ofachievement, then why are some
able to cash in on theirallotment for more chips than
others?
The answer is they make gettingto the heart of things the heart
of their approach.
They go small.
"When you want the absolute bestchance to succeed at anything
(02:14):
you want, your approach shouldalways be the same.
Go small.
"'Going small' is ignoring allthe things you could do and
doing what you should do.
It's recognizing that not allthings matter equally and
finding the things that mattermost.
(02:38):
It's a tighter way to connectwhat you do with what you want.
It's realizing thatextraordinary results are
directly determined by hownarrow you can make your focus."
Harry (02:52):
I love that, number one.
Number two, I wish I'd writtenit.
Number three, I feel like Ishould have read it because of
my interest in prioritization,but I don't recall ever having
read it, which leads me towonder if it's one of the book
books on habits.
Jorge (03:13):
It's not a book on habits.
This is the focus of this book,it's focus, and it's called The
ONE Thing.
The subtitle is The SurprisinglySimple Truth Behind
Extraordinary Results, and it'sby Gary Keller with Jay Papasan.
I think that's how that'spronounced.
Harry (03:34):
Now, the crazy thing is I have read that book, but I did
not remember that piece of it.
And I loved that book and I'verecommended it countless times,
so I'm so glad you brought itinto the foreground and actually
prompted me to realize that I'dforgotten just how good that
(03:57):
book was.
Jorge (03:59):
Yeah.
I only read it for the firsttime toward the end of last year
as I was pondering all thesechanges that I'm now rolling out
and I was thinking,"I am gonnashift my focus." And one of the
hard things about shifting focusand this is why I wanted to talk
about this book and about theseideas in general is that when
(04:19):
you've been doing something fora long time, your attention is
on those things.
And then if you're going to makea pivot or change, move in a
different direction, if you wantto have any kind of impact, you
have to devote more of yourattention in that direction.
And the question is, how do youmanage that?
(04:41):
And this is something that I,expect that you have thoughts
on, given your work onprioritization.
But I'll give you just a veryvivid example of that and
hopefully get your advice.
This is like free coaching thatI'm doing with this, with
today's session here.
So, I recently turned down theopportunity to estimate a
(05:08):
project that would've been thesort of thing that I would've
done in the past, right?
So it's like a classicinformation architecture design
project.
And I'm in a period right nowwhere I'm really busy and the
(05:28):
prospect needed a very quickturnaround and I wasn't gonna be
able to do it justice.
So that's a big part of myturning it down.
But another reason why I turnedit down is that I want to make
more space for the kind of workthat Greg and I are gonna be
doing in this consultancy.
And that is a different focusthan the focus that I've had in
(05:50):
the past.
But it's not an easy thing todo.
I think Andy Warhol used to saythat someone has to bring home
the bacon, right?
So it's so, it's, tricky, right?
Because on the one hand, I needprojects.
I've been, so far, a UX designconsultant focused on
information architecture.
(06:11):
And where do you draw the lineand how do you make that
transition?
And how do you focus on the onething while you are...
how do you change the tires on acar that's in motion, basically?
Harry (06:27):
It is funny, so much of the work that I've done in
prioritization is a result ofhaving been involved in complex
replatforming and transitionalprojects, and I think it's
really informed a lot of thephilosophy that's gone into my
thinking around this.
But, you know, what do they sayabout strategy?
If we had all the resources inthe world, and all the time in
the world, we would just doeverything, right?
(06:49):
But we don't, and therefore wehave to learn how to say no or
not yet to a set of things sothat we can say yes to the thing
that's even more important.
And William Ury wrote a bookcalled The Power of a Positive
No, which was instrumental insome of my early thinking.
(07:11):
And, in fact, mutual colleaguesand friends of ours, i've
recommended this book to so manypeople because it gives you a
set of techniques for saying noin a way that is respectful and
honors the intent behind whatsomebody's asking you to do or
(07:33):
to pay attention to, but is evenmore respectful of whatever it
is that's even more importantpossibly to them and certainly
to you and figuring out how tosay,"yes and it will require all
(07:53):
these additional resources" or"Yes, and you'll need to bring
in this other person or this newset of tools'cause I'm no longer
available." Like, what is theway to say no becomes part of
the challenge.
It's not just saying it, but howdo you say it.
And the other thing that I wasthinking of when you brought
(08:16):
this up is, I interviewed a lotof people senior people who were
extremely good at gettingamazing things, reaching amazing
goals, and doing incrediblethings.
And one of the key ideas thatcame out among all of these
(08:39):
interviewees, and it's builtinto chapter nine in my book, is
that, if you have a periodicprioritization process or a
habit or something that you doon a frequent basis to reset how
it is you're gonna approachwhere you're placing your
(09:01):
attention, one particularlypotent way to do that is to make
sure in that periodic practicethat you always attend to
whatever your strategic goal isby looking at the smallest, most
(09:23):
actionable, responsible step youcan take to pursue it, and just
do that.
And if you do that regularly,what will happen is eventually
you'll either achieve thatparticular goal or you will have
executed a transition into whatthat focus was, right?
(09:44):
And so, that morning bootroutine, which Christina Wodtke
documented so many years ago onher Elegant Hack blog and then
it got codified again andupdated in my book is a pattern
that says, the first, thing youneed to do is identify what
you're avoiding and then attackthat.
(10:06):
And the second thing you need todo is attend to whatever the
item is with the highest cost ofdelay, that is to say, the
longer you weigh, the morepainful or expensive it's gonna
get.
But the third element there ismaking sure that you've got your
top goal or your primary area ofinvestment clear enough so that
(10:29):
you can pinpoint just the nextthing that needs your attention
and continue chipping away atthat.
Because what happens is it maystart very small, but over time
it becomes a very largepercentage of where your
attention and time, energy, andeffort can go.
Jorge (10:46):
The, thought that comes to mind there is that old joke
about how do you eat anelephant?
One bite at a time, right?
Harry (10:54):
In effect, I've just never been a big fan of killing
or eating elephants.
Jorge (10:59):
I know, neither am I.
I've never, partaken of elephantmeat.
In the book, I wanna circle backto The ONE Thing because, like I
said, I read it last year and Imade some notes then, but I
revisited it now in preparationof this conversation.
And the authors outline a listof what they call four thieves
(11:28):
of productivity.
And, I just wanted to call outthat the very first one on the
list is something that you'vebrought up here, which is the
inability to say no.
And that's something that I'vehad to work on for myself.
One of my deficits.
(11:49):
I would say it like this, one ofmy character flaws is that I am
one of these people who likes toplease people.
And it's really hard for me todo things that I feel are going
to let people down.
And often what that results inis my over committing to things.
(12:10):
So, I feel like this is not justan opportunity for me to try
this new direction, but also ifI'm conscious of the fact, that
that is an issue with me, thisis an opportunity for me to flex
the no-saying muscle.
And, and I just wanted to, puta...
(12:33):
not a hack, but like asuggestion out there, in
preparation for writing myresponse to this prospect who
was asking for my services, Iused chat GPT to engage on a
dialogue about how do I craft aresponse that is respectful of
what the prospect is asking for,of the conversation that we've
(12:56):
had so far, but also that helpsme draw certain boundaries
around my time and my interest.
And I found that really usefulbecause it it allowed me to
think about what I was going tosay from a position that would
not have come naturally to me.
It allowed me to de-centermyself.
Harry (13:21):
Figuring out how to dissociate and move outside of
yourself to look at thesituation and using a tool like
ChatGPT to give you thatperspective is an oddly powerful
way of doing that.
Hadn't considered that specificapplication and why it's so
(13:42):
valuable.
Three things came to mind.
Number one is that, when youbrought this up, I had forgotten
that, for me, there's a veryhard line I draw between
productivity and prioritization.
And I am definitely not aproductivity guru, nor am I a
(14:05):
productivity expert.
In fact, I'm probably the posterchild for procrastination on
some level.
But I think understanding what'smost important, which is really
the functional definition ofhaving a priority, that and the
process of getting there, thosebecome your inputs to your plans
(14:28):
and your decisions and thoseplans and decisions are what
allow you to become moreproductive.
The next thing that popped intomy head was that the term
priority....
I mentioned this, Keller in hisbook might have mentioned this,
(14:51):
but I know I mentioned it in mybook, and I know, I think Greg
McKeown in his book Essentialismbrought this to my attention, is
that the word priorityhistorically wasn't plural, it
was singular, right?
There were no such things aspriorities, that's a more modern
construct.
(15:12):
And the fact is, we havepriorities now because we have
multiple priorities in differentcategories.
Because in a singular categoryso, for example, things you need
to get done there actually isonly one priority, and that's
the thing at the top of thelist.
And that thing at the top of thelist isn't necessarily telling
(15:33):
you have to do that, it'stelling you where to put your
attention so you can make a gooddecision, a good choice.
It's your best option among thegood ones rather than, as my
friend Scott Sulliver says, yourleast bad one among the less
good ones.
And then, I was reflecting onwhat we spoke about a few
minutes ago when I said yes andas a vehicle for saying no.
(15:57):
And that came out of the KeithJohnstone work on improv.
He wrote a book called Impro.
And if you've ever studiedimprov, and I suspect you have,
where you've learned how toparticipate in an improv
session, or improv game, orimprov show.
Certainly the most popular andeasy to remember principles of
improv is the yes and directive,which is, in improv, you never
(16:23):
say no because it creates stopenergy.
You say yes and, and then youqualify it in order to put
whatever qualification is gonnabe necessary to keep the story
going.
And so, the idea of looking atUry's work in the power of a
(16:44):
positive no, and then linkingthat to this improv technique,
which is so powerful, even ifyou don't say it like yes and,
you can ask me to do something,and I can go,"That's a distinct
possibility." What I wasthinking was, that's a version
of yes and right.
(17:05):
There are lots of different waysof invoking yes and without
saying no, N-O.
So, I really related to yourcomment about pleasing people
because, funny, in anotherconversation you and I were
talking about neurolinguisticprogramming, NLP, and
(17:31):
interestingly, one of the mostsenior teachers or instructors
in my NLP training said to me,"You know what your problem is,
Harry?" And I was like,"What?"He said,"You don't know how to
say no." And I was like,"What doyou mean I don't know how to say
no?" And he said,"Give me tenphrases that mean no." And I
couldn't come up with two.
(17:52):
And he said,"Your homework forthe next week is to come up with
a hundred different ways ofsaying no without using the word
no." And that was my homework.
And that's where I came up withall sorts of clever little well,
I thought they were cleverlittle things but if we're ever
in a meeting together andsomebody says something and you
hear me say,"I'm confused," whatthat actually means is NFW.
(18:21):
That's my stop word for myselfto remember that I'm not allowed
to say no.
I have to reorient theconversation and move it forward
in a more productive way.
And that came out of that workin NLP where my instructor said
I needed better ways of sayingno.
I might suggest to you that a)you pick up a copy of William
Ury's book just because it's notlike you need to read the whole
(18:44):
book, it's way too many pagesthat cover the same concept.
You know, how to say yes tosomething bigger and more
important by somehow gracefullysaying no to the thing that
would prevent that from beingtrue.
And then maybe spend the time tocome up with a hundred different
ways to say no, and then picktwo or three that really work
(19:07):
for you or that, and then try'emout.
Run an experiment.
See how people react to'em.
Jorge (19:12):
That's great suggestion.
I'm gonna check it out.
We're coming to the end of ourtime here and I realize that
I've already read a passage froma book today.
But hearing you say this broughtto mind one of my favorite
quotes of all time, and I'mgonna read it to you.
This is from Steve Jobs, and hesaid,"People think focus means
(19:33):
saying yes to the thing you'vegot to focus on, but that's not
what it means at all.
It means saying no to thehundred other good ideas that
there are.
You have to pick carefully.
I'm actually as proud of thethings we haven't done as the
things I have done.
Innovation is saying no to athousand things."
Harry (19:54):
I love that.
Jorge (19:56):
Yeah, I, think that's spot on and it's making me feel
better about my having said no.
Harry (20:06):
These conversations are so enlivening.
My whole day is better every daywe talk.
Jorge (20:11):
Same here.
Thank you so much for makingtime for it, Harry.
Harry (20:14):
I really appreciate it.
Thanks Jorge.
Narrator (20:22):
Thank you for listening to Traction Heroes
with Harry Max and Jorge Arango.
Check out the show notes attractionheroes.com and if you
enjoyed the show, please leaveus a rating in Apple's podcasts
app.
Thanks.
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