Commercial Director into Business Author | Matthias Mahr [48] - Transferable Skills

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Transferable skills, skills, skills from Cacklemedia.
This is Transferable Skills. I'm Noah Michigan.
Today's guest is Matthias Marr, who went from being a commercial
director in the UK into a published author.
His book is very interesting. There's a link in the show notes
if you'd like to purchase it andcheck it out.
Also those who are tuning in on Spotify or on YouTube.
Will be. Privileged to see the photo that

(00:21):
is referenced in the middle of the conversation pop up on the
screen, so enjoy. Matthias, it's great to have you
on the show. Welcome.
Nice to see you. Let's start the beginning, your
career. Sounds good.
So I'm actually originally from Austria, just for the background
where I grew up and what did my school.
I guess I then moved to the UK where I live now for my
undergrad. And then I didn't really know

(00:42):
what I wanted to do at the end of that.
So I became a strategy consultant because I felt that
would keep my options open. That was a great start to my
career indeed, for all the good reasons that people normally
say. So it teaches you how to think.
It teaches you how to present, how to manage yourself in front
of the senior people, etcetera. So I did that for about 6 years
and then after that moved into eBay in a commercial and

(01:04):
marketing role. And then for the last 20 years
or so have been doing various commercial roles in a number of
different consumer organizations.
You started in strategy consulting.
What was that like? In where did you get your
inspiration and mentorship from?The bit for me that was maybe
unusual as I started on a Thursday, I had a 2 day
induction and I was sent off to a client office on the Monday

(01:27):
with a manager that I've never met.
So I met him at the airport because it was I was based in
London without in the Netherlands.
So I met him at the airport at 6:00 AM on the Monday and I
looked then, I still look kind of youngish but I looked then
about 15. So both him and the client when
I turned off didn't quite know what had hit them, what they
were paying money for. But you get used to it.
And, and strategic consulting atthe beginning is all about data

(01:50):
analysis and gathering data and then analysing that data and,
and interpreting it. And there's a lot of advice
available for more senior peoplebecause in strategy consulting,
it's pretty standard, as I said,to have this, this regular
intake of new people who basically know nothing and
immediately get shipped off somewhere.
So there's a, a sort of informalmentorship program as well as
having a more formal mentorship program.

(02:11):
So you do have somebody in the organization that formally
looks, looks out for you. It is your your mentor if you
like, but really it's your firstmanager who teaches you a lot of
what you need to know because they have to because they
haven't got much of A choice. But again, quite young.
I was 20 at the time when I started, which I mean, UK people
start working reasonably young in those sorts of professions,
but 20 was still younger than average.

(02:31):
So I didn't know really very much about anything.
I've done some internships, but that's about it.
So I was reliant on the more senior people on the team to
tell me what to do. Obviously I'll start asking
questions, but I did literally show up at least the first few
months just kind of saying, hey,tell me what I'm meant to do
here and then you pick things upas you go along because I'm a
naturally quite curious person. So I will ask those questions

(02:51):
anyway in those. First couple months is your job
to sit and be quiet or are you supposed to interject with your
opinion? It's less dependent, I guess.
You probably kept more behind the scenes at that point.
You're less in the direct clientmeetings most of the time and
you do, as I said, more the dataanalysis.
So you are given big data sets. At the time it was more Excel.
Now you'd have obviously a lot of different tools and are asked

(03:13):
to build a model or are asked tostart interpreting data or
perhaps read reports and and do summaries.
So a lot of a lot of things, I suppose, maybe not today I would
do on your behalf. That was the junior job of a
strategy consultant. So interesting actually to know
how it's changed today. I'm assuming those roles exist,
but to use a lot more of those support tools that just didn't
exist at the time. Yeah.

(03:34):
And like any era, there's alwaysgoing to be new tools.
The question is, how are you using them?
Somebody that doesn't have necessarily an analytical
strength or mindset, they're maybe going to get information,
but superficial level, they're not going to be able to drill
deeper and deeper to get the data and information that
they're looking for necessarily.So it still takes the right
experience and individual mind to be able to extract the most

(03:59):
amount of value from these tools.
I agree. Having said that, I certainly
remember at the time I was givenliterally a big pile of papers
to read and highlight and summarize.
So I guess that a bit it's no longer required or, or or will
be done very differently, I suppose.
But you're right, you still needsomebody who knows what
questions they're asking and then what with that information
for sure. And people used to traverse

(04:21):
continents on horse and buggy and that worked then.
But once the the railway system was invented and eventually
automobiles, it's hard pressed to find many people traversing
continents on horse and buggy. You're right.
And, and, and as you said that the core skills of, I suppose
strategy, analytic structure, storytelling really is a big

(04:45):
part of that, which in the book,again, is, is very helpful
because I've learned that from an early stage is how do you
construct the PowerPoint presentation, not just in terms
of the slides themselves, but structure it so that you're
telling an exciting story to theaudience at the end of that.
So those sorts of things. Again, you can clearly get AI
support with that, but there's alot of of skills still that are

(05:05):
needed for that. Let's tease the book, tell us
the the title, and tell us what it's about.
Sure. So my book is called How to Be
Moderately Successful, and the idea here is that this book is a
career acceleration book, and I've called it Career
Acceleration for Realists. It's quite action-packed.
It's a lot of short, sharp chapters, each with an action in

(05:26):
it. And why moderately successful?
Not super successful, which doesn't mean that I don't want
everyone to be super successful,right?
I just felt that there was a bitof a gap in the market in the
sense that there are a lot of books out there that will teach
you how to be really successful,written by CE OS, written by
entrepreneurs, written by peoplewho've been there and done that.
But in your early to mid career,while that's inspiring, it might

(05:48):
feel quite a long way away from where you are today and may
therefore be less helpful to getyou to the next step in your
career. So if you think of a career as a
mountain to climb, my book will get you to what I'm thinking of
as base camp of that mountain, which is quite a reasonable way
to go. And it should get you a
promotion. It should get you certainly many

(06:08):
more skills that you have today.But it'll get you to that point
in your career where you're comfortable, you've got
hopefully enough money, you've got a role that you like.
And I'm not judging what that is.
That's individual to everybody. But let's say a a head of role
or a senior manager or maybe a director role, some kind of mid,
mid to high level. And then once you got to base
camp, which is this book, then clearly you can continue

(06:30):
climbing and go all the way to the top where the air is thinner
and it's tougher and so on. And there's plenty of other
books for that. Or you might decide, actually,
maybe base camp is a nice place to be because the food's good
and the view's nice and you'd rather watch the other people
struggle on ahead. And that's also part of the book
is, is kind of, you know, what is success to you?
Why do you want success? Who's driving it?

(06:51):
What are you trying to achieve? But that definition that you're
getting is actually really important because we often seek
out to hear from the people thathave climbed the mount, that
have summited, But nobody would feel any different or less value
from somebody that even got to base camp.
But if you got to base camp, that means you're already
motivated, you're doing the work, you've put in the effort

(07:13):
and everything needed to get youto that point.
Yeah, I think it's the, but it'salso it's, it's, it's really
making you think about what it means to you because I guess
most people's career paths or career aspirations were right.
Let's keep going as far as we can get, whatever happens.
And I think nowadays there's a lot more examples of people who
get to a certain point and then they start thinking actually,
you know what, I'm kind of happyhere.

(07:33):
Or I'm trying to do something very different, which I guess is
also the subject of, of this podcast.
Often. It's no longer all about let's
run as hard as we can as fast aswe can forever.
It's more about, I guess, thinking about where that's
going and why you're doing it. So let's talk about why you're
doing it. It was probably about 10 years
ago, I would say, and that's when I became more senior in

(07:54):
organizations, had larger teams and really started to get more
into career development and career coaching for others.
Partly as my role because as a manager clear that is part of
your job. But I also started doing
mentorship roles for others in organizations and even for
friends and colleagues and so forth outside of organizations
and started to really quite enjoy that because I really love

(08:16):
developing people and seeing them grow.
I found that some of the ideas and some of the the stories and
tips I gave people, they found quite useful.
And I started writing those downand that's what eventually
became the book. So there were probably 20 or 38
days already in my in my sort ofphone that's been lying there
for a long time. I think there is a
disassociation or abstract understanding of what it takes

(08:38):
to convert thoughts into actual authorship and scholarship.
For that matter, what does it take to convert general ideas
and thoughts into a formal outline and even script?
I, I mean, I think it's quite similar to, to work related
skills to some extent in the sense that you need discipline
to keep it going, but it's the same thing.

(08:59):
You start writing some ideas down and then at some point that
needs to be structured in some way so that you can fill in the
blanks and you, you have a sort of outline that you then work
towards and you can start filling in the blanks.
And eventually you, you get there, certainly for a book like
mine, a business book where it'smore going to be structure
chapters. And then you need to have the

(09:20):
discipline to actually keep going and get it done.
Because once you start writing and you realize that it takes
you a week to do a 5%. And so then you think, well,
hang on, that's 20 weeks plus extra time plus plus plus
there's a story out there that goes, a lot of people have a
book in them or want to write a book, whatever, 10% of them
start writing the book, 10% of them finish writing the book,

(09:41):
and then 10% of them actually sell much of the book.
So it's a it's a big funnel, butthe skills are not that
different. I'd like to ask you a little bit
about your collaboration dial talking about, you know, success
not being binary. It's not 0 sum, it's not either
all or nothing. So I'm, I'm kind of curious to
understand how you turn that, that dial, how you understand

(10:02):
collaboration dial. So can do you mind defining that
a little bit here? Yeah, I suppose it's, it's
tricky for me to define it because really the first part of
the book is, is for the reader to define it and to ask yourself
the question is, well, look inside yourself.
What actually drives you? Why are you doing the things
that you're doing? Is it your parents?

(10:23):
Often it is your parents, weirdly enough.
It's, you know, you either directly or indirectly feel I
must please somebody in my family somewhere.
It's rarely sort of your friends, I think because most
people's friends couldn't reallycare whether you're senior or
not senior. Is it yourself?
Is it money, is it kind of prestige and ego it?
I think it's quite important to try to steal these things down

(10:45):
and and figure out what are those drivers that you have so
that you can then more go towards those rather than
potentially keep going for 5/10/15 twenty years without
really knowing why you're actually doing it.
It's quite a personal question that people need to figure out,
I think for themselves, rather than me being able to tell them
what it is. How much of this book would you

(11:05):
say is less of a prescription and more of a general mindset
that you're trying to get the reader into for them to just
essentially write the book themselves that applies to them
using your rubric? Yes, I should probably just
outline really briefly what it'sgot.
One section at the beginning on what does success mean for you,
why you're doing it, where do you want to go?
So that's one section, that's one out of five.

(11:26):
Then there's a couple of sections on just getting better,
what you do day-to-day, which ismore prescriptive or at least
more pick and choose, but actions that I give you, which
is around managing expectations,managing your time, doing
presentations well, strategy, decision making, actions for
activity, a lot of those kind ofbasic things.
Then there's a section on working with other people,

(11:48):
understanding other people, how to manage your boss, how to work
with people that you don't get on with.
And then there's a final sectionon how to find a better job,
either getting promoted within your company and how that might
work or finding a job outside ofyour company.
And that's back to the skill, the transferable skills bit.
It takes my approach to things, which is very action oriented
and it transcribes that into a book because each of the 40

(12:10):
chapters has an action for you to do straight away.
Got a box in a book where you can fill in your action so you
actually have it as a as a memento.
Incidentally, I do love books that have worksheets and and
takeaways that you can actually accomplish.
I think that makes it more productive.
There's a strong emphasis on bandwidth.
What are your own non negotiables when it comes to

(12:30):
protecting your bandwidth? That's something that I
personally struggle with, and I'm curious what your suggestion
is towards that. Yeah, I mean, in terms of how to
manage it better really that themain key is to say no
occasionally, which is very difficult for people because
it's nice to say yes, right And it's and it's it's nice to not
disappoint people as it were. And you want to feel like you're

(12:53):
reactive and you you're supportive and so on.
But ultimately, the only way to manage it, once you hopefully
get somewhere where you asked a lot of questions and you're
asked for, to, to do a lot of work, then then it is occasion
to say no and to explain why that is and to, to, to, to focus
on the things that are, that aremost important.
And there's a, that there's one chapter called strategy is

(13:14):
deciding what not to do, which is I, I love that phrase.
Just as you become more senior, because if you're in a company
and their strategy is to do 15 things, that's not really a
strategy. That's just taking everything
that you could possibly do and just doing it right.
A strategy saying actually, we're only going to do these
five and we're going to leave these other five behind even
though they're good ideas. That's the hard thing that the

(13:36):
things that are bad ideas are easy to leave behind, right?
But there's a lot of good, there's too many good ideas.
So at some point you just have to accept that even if these
things are good ideas, you just can't do them because otherwise
the rest is going to suffer. So that's my advice is somehow
find a way to say no to good ideas unfortunately.
How often do you apply these principles in the same
philosophy to your personal life?
Because where I struggle the most in this, the idea of

(14:00):
bandwidth and saying no is in mypersonal life, which can affect
my my professional life, right? It's about how much time
capacity do I have? And when I'm devoting any my
capacity to a yes, it there is atrade off.
It's what is it detracting from or taking from?
How do you apply that same philosophy in your personal
life? How do you how?
Do you say no? When you care about the

(14:21):
individual that's asking. Yeah, I mean the first of all,
it's it's just coming. I'll come back to the specific
answer to here, but I've got it's just because it's triggered
in my mind. There's in the book, there's one
question at the front that goes,well, you can only do 2 out of
three things really well at any one time.
And they are work, family and hobbies.

(14:43):
It's really hard to do all threereally well because they all
take a lot of time. So you kind of have to start by
picking, if I have family commitments and I really want to
do well at work, I'll probably have to accept that I can do
hobbies less. I'm not going to do a marathon
as well as these other two. Or if I want to do a marathon,
I'm going to have to accept to do a bit less work or that my
family has to suffer for a bit. Like, you know, that triangle

(15:05):
you kind of need to figure out upfront what's going to give
because you in my experience, you just can't do all three
really well. That resonates personally with
me because I think it was just yesterday, a friend of mine who
happened to be a colleague at our business years back just
texted me a photo from, it mighthave been 10 years ago.

(15:26):
I was training for a marathon atthe time, and he took a picture
outside of my office looking in and I was asleep at my desk.
Because it must have been, you know, towards the end of the
training when I'm getting reallyup there and I'm waking up at
3:00 AM and I'm running a lot and then I'm getting to work and
I'm, I'm burnt out by by eight, 9:00 AM in the morning.

(15:47):
So it's funny that you say that because I think that I think
that's true. Something's going to suffer.
And at that point I was devotingor investing more of my capacity
and resources into that one hobby for that period.
And it was coming at certain cost.
That also compromises a little bit the other two.
And you said you want to disappoint people, then it might

(16:08):
come to a trade off of, well, what's harder for me is it, is
it harder to disappoint somebody?
Is it harder to not be this personal hobby of whatever
running or whatever it is that Imight have?
And I think the more you, it sounds a bit detached and
unemotional, which it kind of ismaybe, but the more you perhaps
occasionally write these things down, at least think about it
for 5 minutes. You know what is if I had to

(16:30):
choose, which one do I pick rather than What people often do
is they don't want to face into the choice and they just try and
do everything and at some point it all slightly falls apart
because you just can't. So the more you you sort of
accept that there are choices tobe made and make them more
consciously rather than trying to do everything.
I'd like to know more about whatexperiences influenced some of

(16:53):
your writings. I try particularly to lean
heavily on the storytelling element.
There's always a story with eachidea and often quite a personal
story about when I took a flightor when I went camping or when I
did some things at work. It it goes and round the places
but hopefully makes it a bit more interesting to read.
So the storytelling element comes through very strongly and
it's something I've done for a while in presentations, but also

(17:15):
more recently certainly leading bigger teams.
For example, in my most recent role for a company called Train
Line, which is Europe's biggest seller of of train tickets, but
like a bookie.com for trains, I set up the international
business. So that's everything that's not
the UK focused on Italy, France,Spain and quite a few other
countries. And it was there I had to do
extra storytelling because that was a whole new area for the

(17:38):
business. How to explain why that was
important, what it even was, howit was different to what was in
the UK. I've always enjoyed that
storytelling element and I've been doing more and more of that
recently, building a platform ofvision, getting people excited
about something and imparting knowledge through a story rather
than through a sort of dry list of of today's.
So that's one example of where I've been able to use my

(18:01):
previous skills or the skills that I've previously acquired in
in the book. Do you have elements that you're
kind of following, let's call itcheck boxes, that to tell a good
story, you want to hit these marks?
Not formally, but I think anything that is genuine and and
personal is a great start. And I've watched a lot of

(18:22):
leaders in my previous CEO, for example, when they stand up in
front of a big crowd of 500 a 1000 people and try and
basically say where's the business at and where's it
going? They would start with a personal
story of where they were a childor when they did something.
So I think the personal element of a story is, is obviously a
really great part because it, itjust connects it to you in a

(18:45):
genuine way, but also normally connected to the audience that
you are with as well. The other bit that's quite
strong. You asked me before about what
I've learned. It's really working with with
other people, which I guess in every business you have to work
with other people depends on what you do.
But that's, it's a, it's a key thing.
Yet I still find that many people aren't particularly good
at it because, again, they don'treally take the time to

(19:06):
understand how the other people they're working with, where
they're coming from and why are they doing what they're doing.
And quite quickly go on a confrontational approach where,
I don't know, you're in sales and you want to get your thing
approved and legal kind of gets in the way and you're like, come
on, legal, what are you doing? You're in the way of my sale
here. But there's hundreds of examples

(19:26):
like that in companies, isn't that can sometimes be because
people work in different departments or it can be that
people have very different personality profiles, colour
wheel or wire springs. There's plenty of of, of
profiles out there, but people don't take enough time to
understand that. And we'll quite quickly go
confrontation. I think if you again, take that
step back and there's a few tools in the in the book to help
you do that, you will find that actually you can get on with

(19:49):
most people because ultimately they're driven by either their
personality or their targets or both.
And if you understand what thoseare, then you understand why
they're doing the things they'redoing and yours might be
different. And then you try and find some
kind of common grounds. That there are many people that
associate career changes with reinvention.

(20:11):
But your book suggests actually that you know, compounding what
you already Oh no, your your background and experience that
that exists, right. That's the essence of this show
is not talking about abandoning one's background in order to
pursue something different, but rather leveraging it.
So I'm I'm curious how someone might think about a career
change as a form of acceleration, not a reset as you

(20:33):
suggest. Well, the start is, if I look at
myself and that recent career change, if you like, from a
commercial role to an author. I'm using a lot of the skills
that I had before in my new role, even though they are very
different jobs. And that's everything from the
kind of action output focus to actually get it over the line to
structure. I talked about the storytelling,

(20:54):
the structure and create craft and the whole thing all the way
through to the sales piece of, of writing the book is, is half
of it. It's probably less than half.
And the other half or more is actually getting into people's
hands to PNL and pricing and ROI.
And how much is it going to costme?
What's my budget? So there's a lot of skills, in
fact, most skills that I'm transferring across.

(21:15):
Obviously there's a lot of new things I need to learn because I
don't know about publishing and distribution and, and some of
the insurance and outs. But I guess 80 or 90% of what
I've applied, I transferred across from my previous role.
So I would definitely agree withyou.
And I think the important bit for me and one of the
recommendations in the book actually is to figure out what
are your specialties, what makesyou unique, what's your value

(21:39):
proposition? And that doesn't have to be a
specific role, right? That in fact, it's not a
specific role really, but it does have to be something that
is a little bit unique is my recommendation.
And that can be a functional skill you created digital
marketing, or it can be a a social skill or or something or
a package of, of all of those. So I think that you're

(22:02):
absolutely right that you need to use your existing skills and
transfer them into something new, but you also need to be
clear about what that package is.
So it makes it easier for you tofigure out what that other role
might be, but also for headhunters or people that you
speak to or whoever to place youor to find to accept that this
could be a new role for you. You need to be clear about that

(22:24):
as well. Yeah, the headhunter is not
going to solve the problem for you and tell you here's what you
should be doing. They're going to help assist in
maybe placement once they know very specifically what it is
that you're looking for and findthe organization that's looking
for that exact set of skills andexperience.
Exactly a bit clear about why that is.
And you mentioned that headhunders I've I've work with
head on the lawn. They they will be fairly single

(22:47):
minded typically on we have thisskill set that we need and
either you have it or you don't.And you need to really have your
story together to explain why you may not have the obvious
path into this role. But because of the skills that
you've previously developed, youcan do this role for these
specific reasons. So it's very important for you
to be not just clear what is that you want to do, but why you

(23:09):
are an attractive package for this, this different role that
you're trying to get to. Given your natural strengths and
learn skills, what job might youexcel at but are also
exceedingly overqualified for? You did.
You'd asked me in advance. I had a thought.
For some reason, I've always, I mean, I hesitated to say
exceedingly overqualified because I, I don't want to talk

(23:30):
down this particular job. But anyway, I like travel a lot.
I've worked and traveled for a long time.
I particularly like flying as well as taking trains, other
modes. But I just like the idea of
always have since I was a kid tofly off somewhere.
So to answer the question, I'd love to be an airline
dispatcher. You know, those people that are
standing at the gate when the plane's leaving and their job is
to make sure that everything is ready so that the plane can

(23:53):
leave so that the people are there, the bags are there, the
paperwork is there, the whateverelse catering and all the other
stuff that they need, Which you got to ask, well, how does that
fit with my skill set? But I think the action
orientation, be calm under pressure, which also my previous
roles as some of the commercial roles dealing with lots of
people. It's a bit of a stretch, but
I've, I've always fancied that as a job.

(24:14):
Weirdly enough. Now you say exceeding over
qualified. I'm again, I'm, I'm pretty sure
it's a qualified job that you have to learn to do.
So I really don't want to talk that one down, but just as a
very different type of job to what I have today.
For some reason I kind of fancy being out of this batch here,
and I thought maybe in my retirement when I'm 65 or
whatever, maybe I'll just do that three days a week just
because it sounds fun. And it might be a stretch, but

(24:35):
actually, I think that those arethe ones I like the best ones
that are a stretch because they're, they're very abstract.
They seem to come out of left field, which sorry, is an
American baseball reference. But we we we've adopted the.
UK now left field so it's OK. OK.
The and so I think those are theones that it seems surprising to
address some of your insecurities of.

(24:56):
I don't want to talk down to theindividuals doing that as being
overqualified. I've had struggle, I've
struggled that personally like worrying that by taking this
question public one might feel slighted that you are saying you
are overqualified for that. And at the end of the day, what
I have said to other guests and what I repeat to myself is it's
subjective and it's relative. There's always going to be
somebody that is overqualified for every job that exists out

(25:19):
there, and that's OK. I would agree.
If you have some some tips, perspective on how people might
even look at what they're doing today towards growth for for
tomorrow, yeah. I'm going to leave you with one
thought on that, which is if youwant to have a new role,
particularly a high level 1, buta different one as well, then
act like it. So the advice for me from and

(25:41):
one of the best parts of the pieces of advice I received 1050
years ago, I was in a head of role and I wanted to have this
director role and I kept complaining that I didn't have
this director role and if I onlyhad a director job that I would
be able to do more in strategy and I'd be able to make these
decisions and so on. And my boss said to me, if you
want to be a director, then act like what?
And that's always stuck with me,which is basically don't wait to

(26:04):
be given permission to do this bigger job or different job, but
try to already do it and act like that role, like if you as
if you had that role today, because that will make it a lot
easier for you to get that role.Obviously that that mostly works
if you want to go up, right? If you want to do a completely
different job, it's going to be hard to do your job today and a
totally different job. I don't know.

(26:25):
But if you. Do a job that is beneath you.
You certainly will be demoted. So, so that might be harder, but
but yeah, if you have a certain level and you want to get the
next level or a bigger role and try and look at someone who
already does that, how are they acting differently to you in
terms of their thinking, their decision making, their way of
operating in meetings, et cetera, and step up basically
before being told to do it. And I'll just make it a lot

(26:46):
easier to get that role. Fantastic advice, very helpful.
Thank you. So if you want to learn more
about this, many of the other principles, suggestions,
concepts, and applications that Matthias describes in the book,
go out and get the book. It's linked below, How to be
moderately successful. I love the name.
I think it's fantastic and it's excellent.
It's available wherever you get your books.

(27:07):
Thank you so much for being heretoday.
This has been a fantastic conversation.
Thank you for having you. I want to thank Matthias for
being today's. Guest on this episode.
And to you, our listeners, for joining us for this episode of
Transferable Skills. Remember, the skills you've
gained can take you anywhere. Until next time, keep exploring
those transferable skills.

All Episodes

Commercial Director into Business Author | Matthias Mahr [48]

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Ruthie's Table 4

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Commercial Director into Business Author | Matthias Mahr [48]