Family Business into Certified Alcohol & Drug Counselor | Jeremy Geller [53] - Transferable Skills

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Transferable skills, skills, skills, skills from CACL Media.
This is transferable skills. I'm Noah, Michigan.
Today's guest is Jeremy Geller, who shares quite a unique story.
Yes, he grew up in a family withthat had a family business.
His real story is considering his options going into following
in the family footsteps and joining the family business or

(00:21):
taking a different route, his own path.
His story is one that I hope resonates and is helpful for a
lot of people who are listening and joining us.
It's all about going from addiction, substance abuse, 10
years of sobriety into being an addiction counselor.
I hope you enjoy and have a lot of takeaways from this
conversation. Jeremy, great to have you here.

(00:42):
What you're doing now is is directly reflective of where you
came from and a very important conversation all together.
So I'm excited to have you here today and for sharing your
journey. Thanks, Noah.
I appreciate it. Tell us where you're at, what
are you doing now and we can work backwards and how you got.
Here, so right now I am a certified alcohol and drug
counselor, also known as the CADC pretty easy acronym there

(01:05):
and I'm also pursuing my mastersin social work.
LCSW is the is the goal. I'd say, you know, I'm a mixture
of a therapist, but what kind ofbrought me here was I think my
own like recovery journey, rightwhen June celebrated 10 years of
sobriety, I remember thinking driving home from my treatment

(01:31):
stay, my partial hospitalization, which was like
a nine to three program at five days a week, remember thinking
to myself like it would be really cool to be one year sober
like that. In my mind was like, that was
the goal. Like I want to get that one year
coin. I thought about that and then
looking back on it 10 years later, being like, wow, that

(01:53):
seems so far away. And 10 years feels so short.
Like as I've gone through it, asI've lived it, as I've
experienced it, and like one year just became two and two
became 3. We could probably talk for about
two or three hours just about what you just said, because a
lot of a lot of principles for life in that, especially like

(02:16):
this idea of you can have a 10 year vision.
But if you make that your immediate goal that you're
laddering towards in that that'sall you're focused on.
It might be too, too big of a goal to to try to tackle.
But you have these like macro milestones.
You got to start with something that's digestible that you can
actually tackle. And then you compound that
success and you build that traction.

(02:36):
So congratulations again. 10 years is is a tremendous feat.
Yeah. How far into your partial
hospitalization? Where you when you had that
hopes and dream? That that journey was like 3
months. It's four months in itself of
like stepping down and going from PHP to IOP with intensive
outpatient to outpatient to continuing care.

(02:58):
I don't know. I don't know when that actual
dream kind of like happened, butI think what the point is, I was
starting to dream again. You asked me like how I how I
got here, right? How do I get to like being
coming a substance abuse counselor is like, I think that
I had this time where I was pre and post sobriety and pre
sobriety, like my life was on autopilot.

(03:19):
I was good at sports, I had a lot of friends, everything was
easy. I had a family business in my
name. I was the only boy.
I constantly have been been toldtheir name was on the door.
So I went to college and I got adegree to get a degree.
I didn't have like a vision of anything that was beyond that
point. There was no dreams.
It was like everything that was in front of me, like the next
basketball game, the next girlfriend, the next time with

(03:42):
my friends, next time with my family.
My story's already written for me.
It's just like, how do I not completely screw it up?
The pitfalls of being over prescribed.
Hey, there's like no individual creativity or voice and that
could sometimes be daunting. You might, one might look at it
and in some in for some people it is a privilege to say I have

(04:05):
all this going for me. And to others it can equally be
detrimental in that I'm not surethat this is the path I want,
but it's the one that apparentlyeveryone's telling me I have to
do. There's probably a lot of
anxiety surrounding that as wellas I don't know.
I don't want to use the word shame, but is it guilt?
Is the word guilt? Is it guilt that like this is

(04:27):
being given to me and this is the path that if I want it I can
have it, but I don't necessarilyknow if I want that exact thing?
So I think guilt is an interesting like point that I
want to bring up because somebody even asked me
yesterday, like what is my motivation every day?
And one of the things I said wasguilt.
But at the time it was definitely not guilt.

(04:49):
I didn't even know guilt becauseI hadn't faced any adversity.
It was like it was almost like you hadn't had this breakthrough
to understand like what it took to to build to work hard.
And then I think when I started working in diamonds for my
father, that was the moment where like that guilt kind of
arose and made me realize like, ha, I'm not where I'm supposed

(05:12):
to be. Because I thought about all the
time that it took him to build this by himself to become this
in this position. And then I realized, like, holy
crap, I'm going to take this over and I'm going to run into
the ground. Like I truly, genuinely felt
like I did not have the investment in it.
I wasn't ready to throw my complete weight behind it and go

(05:37):
down that path that he had spentmany years doing by himself.
And to where it is today that I had the opportunity to one day
maybe take it over. Then I realized that this is not
for me. But the scary part was that I
didn't know what was next. I was pretty like sure that I
didn't have what it took to takethat over and be successful in

(05:58):
that role. And it doesn't mean that I like
wasn't capable, but I just thought at the time I was like,
this is not going to go the way I want to.
Like I don't know what the buy in is.
Like I, I see my father working this hard, like I'm not feeling
this on a day-to-day basis. But partially it was probably
because I was using, I think partially like I was using

(06:18):
because I wasn't under the pressure.
I think there was a lot of factors that were going on at
the time that made me like decide to like to leave and then
leaving was like the precipitating factor of going on
to the addiction journey and then like needing help.
And then that was kind of like definitely like a overhaul.
Like I remodeled like my whole life.

(06:38):
Like because I had all those pressures were removed and I was
like, where, where do I stand? Like what do I even value?
What do I care about? What are the things that I want
to do in this world that will make some money but also give me
some purpose in this life? Were you looking for your own
identity? 100% and and it sounds sad
because I will say that my childhood like was fantastic.

(07:01):
I I felt like I was in high school, like I felt like I was a
celebrity in my own community, but I'm also a basketball coach.
But I realized after a while I didn't like playing basketball.
I like what playing basketball did for me, what it gave me
rather than playing basketball. And I was like once I was like,
well, I'm getting a little old here.
Like I'm not, I'm not as I'm notas good.

(07:23):
And it's like giving me things and I'm the crowd isn't
cheering. That's a different form of
addiction. It's it's the addicted to the,
the pride that you have on that court of people cheering you on
and, and, and, and giving you aninstant gratification and praise
for your accolades, for your performance.
That could be a massive form of addiction for people.
It's that adrenaline rush for sure.

(07:45):
And there are many different types of substance abuse
individuals who struggle with that.
Often times there is a chemical component to 1's personality or
who they are as, as a human being that they're predisposed
to that addictive behavior and to that, that, that fix, whether
it's dopamine, adrenaline, or, or a chemical intervention.

(08:06):
And I'm, I'm curious like from your perspective, how much of
that is within our control? I think that there was like,
there's a predisposition, right?Like our affirmations, right?
Like we need to be told that we're special, we need to feel
special. We need to be told that we're
good, that we're important, right?
There are certain people, right,that are like that adrenaline

(08:29):
thing like that. They need to constantly feel
that adrenaline. They're just predisposed to take
risks. But I also think that there is
to say like we don't have control.
We take away from like the wholeconcept of like that why we work
on ourselves. If this is just what it is.
I think there's like a way to harness it.
I think that like for me it was kind of shedding like all of

(08:50):
like the surface level of it anddigging deep to like understand
what it all meant and how it allaffects me.
So then I can now utilize it as not necessarily like my
weaknesses, but just who I am. Not necessarily looking them as
strengths and weaknesses, but looking at them as this is like
I embody all of these qualities.Some can be used in ways that

(09:12):
will be negative if they are taken too high dose.
And some like, I don't want to lose those parts of me like I
don't want to lose the parts of me that are like, if I like
recognition, right? I don't want someone to be like
like, oh, no, don't ever give merecognition.
That's that's something like because that's just that's, I
think that it's important to like be to know that it's OK.

(09:34):
Yeah. I, I think 1 area I struggle
with greatly is knowing and understanding the concept of
everything within moderation. But then when you're somebody
that has a history of substance abuse, I mean, you know this
better than than myself, then probably many of our listeners
is that you're supposed to essentially do your best to go
cold Turkey or wean off. But essentially you're not

(09:55):
supposed to have any moderation.You're not supposed to taste
that again, whatever that is foryou.
And I think I struggle with thatpersonally, is that I, I'd like
to, I'd like to never drink alcohol again because it's, it's
literally not good for my body. It's not good for my body, but
in moderation. But like, what if I just don't
ever again? And I think for somebody like me
who is constantly saying, I, I'mnot addicted, but am I?

(10:19):
If I just wouldn't, I just stop drinking something if I knew it
was bad for me, right. So like, I don't know, maybe I'm
maybe I'm over analyzing over and playing these things up in
my head too much, but I don't know.
And I think that I struggle withthis idea of everything in
moderation, but also maybe not everything.
When you think about substance abuse, we are often typically

(10:41):
analyzing the human being, the individual that is abusing it.
And most of the time, I think psychology and medicine is
correct in why this person is using, in what it is that they
are avoiding or compensating foror how they're maybe dealing
with life. I think also sometimes it just

(11:03):
feels good And like whether again, whether it's it's alcohol
or or other drugs or any other risky behavior, adrenaline,
entertainment, sometimes I thinkI struggle with accepting that
there is a difference between dependency and do and and
getting a fix because your body or mind has conditioned itself

(11:27):
to to need it, right? And how that differs from?
Yeah, but I just also like it. Right.
So I think, I think that to yourpoint like that, it feels good,
you know, if you're doing it every once in a while because it
feels good like that makes sense.
But now. Some things.
Right. But now are you doing it because

(11:50):
you feel bad or you can't, you don't want to feel that.
And now I'm doing this more and more and more, right, right.
Like moderation is like it's, it's different for every person.
And I think drug use and substance use and addiction in
every form is so unique to each person.

(12:13):
Why they do it, why they need more, why they need to be doing
it as like even with the negative consequences, why they
continue to do it even though the lost the things that
happened. But the interesting thing about
it is like, why can't we do other things to feel good?
Like why does it mean that I need to put something in my body

(12:35):
to make me feel good instead of like oh I can't enjoy this Cubs
game if I'm not having 4 beers? That's a a wonderful example
because we will look at the fourbeers of the Cubs game as
normalized behavior and that's OK.
When what other context would you sit typically in that short

(12:57):
a period of time and down for beers and why do you need it?
But we've also developed this association, this taste, right?
It's like the like the taste of hot dogs or or peanuts, right?
Associate there is there is a Pavlovian experience there.
And why do we have to go overboard?
Why does it have to be like excess?
Right. So again, like to that point,

(13:19):
like there are there were many activities where I had to like I
had those like aha moments of like, wait a second, do I really
like seeing these type of moviesor only when I was high?
I really like them because it made me laugh.
Or do I really like this type ofmusic or do I only like going to
those shows because I was high? And so there are certain things
that you kind of came away with and you're like, you know what?

(13:40):
I actually still really like that music.
And there are certain things where I was like, I have never
done like since I've been sober because I realized that it was
the only thing. It wasn't about the music, it
was about the activities that surrounded the.
Music, it was about the whole experience.
Yeah, That combined, every humanbeing has their own shtick, has
their own challenges and has their own interests.

(14:02):
And that's why it's so hard to treat addiction, even whatever
mental health like the, you know, the results really vary so
much, even though there are like, you know, barometers and
metrics to track success after been doing this for a while,
Like it's clear that every patient client who leaves your

(14:23):
care, like you may chart them, document them as like completion
or but like completion to one person is so different to
another person from like a humanistic level.
You may go to detox and remove somebody's body of like that
physical dependency of, of addiction, but then they go and

(14:44):
it's like, well, what have you changed about your life further
than that? Are there are there universal to
any degree or characteristics that you might track or score in
order to say, the likelihood of a rate of return or maybe
failure? You know, like you know
abstinence is 1. There's a reason why we drug
test, right? Because it's usually like the
main barometer of how someone's doing.

(15:05):
Have they maintained abstinence throughout their time in
treatment? Isn't the only component?
Like absolutely not For me, it'susually like a level of
engagement. What are they doing outside of
here? They have their three hours of
treatment. Do they go to meetings?
OK, if they don't go to meetings, do they have a
therapist? They see what they aren't seeing
as therapist. Are they changing their physical

(15:28):
health? Are they changing their mental
health? What are they doing?
Or are they just going from hereto their but nothing in their
life is changing? So that's actually super
interesting. Do you how much awareness is
required or expected about the individual's lifestyle and their
activities and what they're doing in order to maintain that
they're leading a life that's atleast setting them up for

(15:49):
success as opposed to risk? Well, I, I think to me, it's
really one of the more crucial aspects of it because as I
mentioned like before, like proximity, like I need that
proximity to my patient's life to understand how to treat them
the best way, right? I mean, a good example would be
like, hey, remember that group of people used to hang out with
that 'cause you or influence maybe bad decisions, right?

(16:13):
Maybe don't hang out with them anymore, right?
But they're probably other things too.
Like maybe if you're doing activities that create a flow of
serotonin, yeah, you're out taking walks, you're hiking,
you're you're doing other thingsthat are behaviorally speaking,
they could be good indications that you are succeeding in this,
in this fight. So.
Do you know who Yohan Hari is? Johan Hari.

(16:33):
Yeah, he's giving a bunch of Tedtalks.
No, but he speaks about addiction.
And one thing he says is that, like the opposite of addiction
is not sobriety, it's connection.
And he bases this off of an experiment that was done called
the Rap Park Experiment. And basically they put a a rat

(16:55):
in a cage and they gave him 2 bottles of water.
It was a cocaine filled bottle of water and and regular water.
I'll bet I know which one the rat liked.
Yep, the cocaine bottle. So they basically said that OK,
if they give him the choice, they're going to go over the
cocaine one. I guess years later someone came
on and was like, you know what, there's something flawed about
this, like living a boring life in this cage.
Sure. So they built up this rat Park

(17:17):
had all the wheels. He had all these female rack
like and they realize that almost never he went for the
cocaine water. Because there was other, more
healthy choices to supplement. Right, There were ways for him
to connect, find purpose that were beyond.
And I think that that's like a major component too.
It's like, you know, we all wantthat community.
We all want that purpose. Like what are we waking up every

(17:38):
day to do to find that thing in,you know, a community?
There's a lot of community there.
Like you meet people who are going through the same things.
You can talk about things, you can go to dinner and have those
sober experiences because like, I think what happens is if
you're really serious about youraddiction and, and getting
treatment, you end up like avoiding all the things, right?
We talk about triggers and warning signs, right?

(18:00):
OK, it's good you're avoiding those things.
But but what are those things that you really liked, but like
you're not doing those things and oh, I don't have anybody to
go to. How do?
You How do you still go to the Cubs game?
Right, Right. So, you know, one would say,
well, I hope you're really luckyif you have great, you know,
great support of family and friends who are like, we're
going to go to the game. We don't need to have beers with
you, right? Like we're going to, we're going

(18:21):
to meet you where you're at, dude, like because we want to go
to the game with you. That's that connection part,
right? But if you don't have that, how
do you recreate it? And a lot of times it's like
there's a lot of loss in early recovery, whether it's like
people you meet and like who youwant to treat me with, whether
it's like the relationships you had who are now very different
because those common interests are not there anymore.

(18:45):
So what are you doing? I, I imagine there's a period
where some people are afraid to go out because they're not yet.
They haven't had that exposure into society again yet, right?
It was early stage those early days and say, OK, I don't know
what I'm going to run into here,so I may as well just avoid it
all, which is not the answer. But I mean, having the sponsor

(19:09):
as part part of the program is imperative because first of all,
you need to know that you have alifeline, you have somebody that
there's it's judgment free that they're there to support you in
any moment. Whether it's just I need to talk
to somebody or I want to talk tosomebody, or I'm literally, I'm,
I'm literally at a crossroads right now and I and I need you
to help walk me out of it. Right.

(19:29):
Within social work, given that you're describing this
proximity, this connection community, is there a way where
we can predict certain behaviorswhere we see disconnection from
adolescents and and kind of teenagers and young adults that
we can maybe identify somebody who might be at risk when it's
not so obvious? So I think it's hard, right?

(19:50):
I could, I think that like, you know, you're especially like
young kids, adolescents, like even coaching high school kids,
you can see certain things in them.
But like, you know, kids are resilient and kids grow out of
things and kids change. You know, drastically or things
happen, but I think for me, what's important as like a
basketball coach, right? When I think of myself as like a
mental health clinician and alsoa basketball coach, what do I

(20:13):
want to hopefully achieve for the guys that I'm coaching as
like in terms of like an interpersonal relationship?
Is that communication, right? Is to gain that trust and
proximity to somebody to be like, this is what I'm noticing,
like everything OK, what's goingon at home?
What's going on over here? Those are the things that to me

(20:34):
are like how you understand and find out what's going on with
somebody is to be able to be a trusting resource where and
seems like a time where like people's are communicate way
better over over a screen than doing in real life.
Like that communication. That's how you gain that
proximity to someone's life to now understand what is really

(20:55):
going on. And then when you have what's
really going on, you can gain some sort of semblance of like
they're at risk for something like that.
But if I don't know, if I don't,if nothing's ever been
communicated to me, I'm just like looking off of how they
interact like on the court or maybe in those small spaces.
Diagnosably that doesn't feel like appropriate because I have

(21:17):
like such little context to or proximity as I would say.
But if you become a person that someone can communicate with,
someone can have that, then you gain that insight that is so
crucial to next steps. It's not that we're looking for
maybe specific behavior, but maybe a change in behavior.

(21:39):
It feels like it would be irresponsible to make judgments
based on small sample sizes. Now, that doesn't mean like,
hey, if I see a behavior that's alarming, that doesn't mean I
don't like do more research or. Or do you smell like alcohol?
I don't have to necessarily giveyou the benefit of the doubt
that maybe you ran into somebodywho was holding a beverage.

(22:00):
So, you know, when people ask meall the time, like, oh, like
what? You know, I'm worried that these
kids are, are drinking and I'm, and I'm like, I was like these
kids, all the kids, how many times, how often are they
drinking? Like, what are you, what are we
going to do about it? I was like, let's talk about it.
Like that's my thing is like, let's talk about what's what,
why are you drinking? Why do you feel the need to

(22:23):
drink when you know what's wrongor why are you like teaching
about the consequences of these things, but not in a way of like
right or wrong? Yes and no, black and white.
But that to give them like that they're now being like made
aware of like because sometimes I remember mom would say this to
me all the time. She's like, if I ever catch you
smoking a cigarette, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to do

(22:45):
something bad. And I'd be like, and then like,
I remember thinking about that. And I was like, and then the
first time she caught me smokingand I was 19 years old, she
didn't do that really bad thing.And I was like, this is so
disappointing. I thought I was going to quit
smoking when you said you were going to do that really bad
thing. Well, what that does is it
breaks down maybe like your, your trust in are there actual
consequences when you say something?

(23:06):
Is that actually true? One of the things I remember
learning years ago is within thecontext of parenting, when you
have to repeat yourself, you shouldn't, you know, that third,
fourth or fifth time, you shouldn't say I'm serious now,
right? Because what, what you're
actually saying is every time before this, I wasn't serious or

(23:27):
the more I say it, if I, if I have to repeat myself three
times every single time, they know the first two times don't
matter. And so especially when the
stakes are high, it is disappointing because you want
to trust that you understand thedynamics of the relationship and
what they say is true. Even if, even if you don't want
to be punished, you do want the integrity of of knowing.

(23:51):
Right, like you, you want you want to know, like again, if
you're going to tell me all liketerrible dangers or something,
right. And all of a sudden I don't
experience those terrible dangers, man, I'm if you want to
believe when someone tells me the other terrible dangers.
What else is not true and what else?
Is possible right So you know I I think there was this guy Chris

(24:13):
Herren who was this famous Boston Celtics player who was
you know copying drugs from his dealer like before starting
lineups like he's a great speaker now and they asked him
like what would you say to your daughter if you know she came
home drunk from a party and he said that one thing is like why
did you feel like you had to be anyone other than yourself why

(24:33):
couldn't you walk into that party and feel confident enough
that I don't need to drink to becool right to to enjoy the party
to enjoy my friends the answer may be like I simply.
Yeah, I think curiosity is important to acknowledge that
that exists. That's that's important,
especially at that age because alot of kids who who drink, they

(24:55):
they don't have the taste for ityet.
And so they're drinking because they're forcing themselves to.
And they're forcing themselves to for a number of reasons
potentially. And curiosity is one of them.
And the message that he's sayingis really important.
Good. And I want to push against it in
that sometimes I just want to feel included.
And everyone was drinking. So therefore I'm also drinking,

(25:16):
so I feel included. Nothing that that's an excuse,
but there's validity there behind why someone might make a
a decision that's bad. Validity and also understanding
why I need to feeling why that wouldn't make me included.
What is going on with this groupof friends that I have these
people in my life that like, if I let's say if we were to give
them like a truth serum and theywere like, and they were to say

(25:39):
like, I actually really didn't want to drink at all.
I actually like was kind of scared to a little bit, but I
wanted to feel included. Then that was my overriding
factor in the situation. And that would make me sad as
somebody hearing this being like, oh, well, like, man, what,
why? Why did you want to be so
included? If you were like actually
scared, you didn't want to and you just wanted to do with other

(26:01):
thing, but you drink because that thing about being included
is like, oh, if I don't drink, they're not going to think that
I'm this. Yeah, that's the that's where
you I try to get to like the bottom of where I, I hope to
build those relationships because that's important to me.
If you, if it's curiosity, seemslike I, I was just curious and I
want to smoke a cigarette for the first time or I want to
smoke weed to see how it felt, right.

(26:22):
Curiosity is totally normal. It's a good, it's encouraged.
Right, right. All right, let's.
Get to the bottom of it then. Yeah, let me give you an
example. Because age it doesn't is non
discriminatory, right, right. OK, this is less than a week
ago. I've I've been trying to cut
down on my alcohol consumption for the last two years, actively

(26:44):
for the last two years and I've and I've I've successfully done
that to a degree. I was diagnosed recently with
like autoimmune disease. And among the many things that.
I was advised is like anti-inflammatory food including
but not limited to alcohol consumption.
So I am cutting out a lot. Another is just like, I don't, I
need to set a good example for my kids.
And if I'm behaving in any way that is unflattering, well,

(27:08):
that's not a good role model. So that.
This is less. Than a week ago I'm I'm at a I'm
at a barbecue and I. Wasn't interested in drinking.
At all. Someone hands me a small cop and
says here, I already poured thisfor you.
And for some reason I didn't have an enemy to say no thanks,
I'm good. I'm I think I drank of it and

(27:30):
then I dispose the rest of it discreetly, which also hurts.
I'm like, that's a good, good bourbon, but I but I, but I, I
did at least, at least I was able to like I threw out half of
it because I'm like, I don't need all this.
But I also felt weird about saying no thanks.
I don't know why. I think it's interesting, but I
think. What what is interesting is like
at first I heard you saying it like depersonalizing, like you

(27:52):
shouldn't be drinking this much at this point like this.
You shouldn't be doing this. Like I didn't hear like I as
much as I would been like, you know, it felt like, OK, this is
a general thing. Like, yeah, we probably
shouldn't be drinking this much.But what was interesting was
like, at first it was you and then when you start to notice
like let's say like the negativeconsequences of drinking with an

(28:13):
autoimmune disease and these type of things.
Like you were almost kind of. Coming to that realization of it
becoming like AU versus an eye. And now I think that it's the
motivation is like you're, you're halfway there, which is
like, makes sense why you drink half a glass, right?
I, I, I'm recognizing the positives.

(28:35):
I'm recognizing that I want to be a good example.
I know that I don't want to be drinking as much, but it's like,
what does as much mean? Right?
We have a little glass. Half a little glass.
Still there? Like why can't I fully say no
thank you, I'll, I'll give it tosomebody else.
Is it like there'll be somethingwrong with like turning down

(28:56):
because it was already poured for you?
Oh man, maybe a bad guess, right?
Like, right, and I think that isinteresting that once we like
really make it something it's like a you know, it's like
something I learned about say like dieting.
Why do diets fail? Right.
They say typically it fails because like I set a goal 20 lbs
Oh wow, this wedding is coming up.
I need to fit in my talks. All these things wedding happens

(29:18):
2020 lbs is gone. Give it.
Up. Yeah, you.
Achieve your short term. Goal right instead of saying.
I want to live a healthy lifestyle.
I want to be a healthy person that is this continuous is
ongoing. It's like if I want to be
healthier, right, there's a lot of things that it entails.
And, and, and if and if one of those short goals is that 20
lbs, then if it becomes this continuous thing where like

(29:40):
you're just now you, maybe you add things.
I know somebody who like cuts out an addiction every single
year. Like, you know, it was substance
use, but like it'll be like coffee one year.
Wait, are those? Hold on.
The ones that this. Individual is cutting out, are
they new ones to replace that past one or are they among the
many addictions that this individual has had for many

(30:02):
right. So it's so like.
They they want to treatment for substance use, right.
So like any mind altering right chemical and then it's like
every year I'm going to take outsomething else that is like
maybe like like the coffee is the coffee.
What they got addicted to after the substance abuse before as a
as as just the next thing. No, I don't think it was just

(30:22):
like I'm. Now noticing all these other
things. In my life that I've been
addicted to and I'm I think it. Was like an introspective like
reflection type of thing where it was like amongst all these
like behaviors that I did remove, I still have like
negative ones, right? Like for me, like I, I know I'm
addicted to coffee. I would love to.
But like, that sounds like a goal, right?

(30:42):
It's like, so it's like, you know, I think it was chocolate
one year for that guy. And it was just, it was just
cool to like see that yes, we have the these goals we're
living a life of in recovery, but like, it doesn't stop.
It's continuous, that's why it's.
Even in the program, whether you're an A a person or you're
not, it's like this thing about doing the next right thing.

(31:04):
You know, you're so you're constant in this continuous
lifestyle of being better. Like there's no finality to it.
It's like this journey. Well, that supports what I said.
Earlier that often times this isthe addictive personality of
this individual. Whatever substance or other
addiction that that individual struggled with was just whatever
that flavor was for that person then.

(31:24):
And it could be many, many otherthings, right, Right.
Like it could be healthy things too.
Like I'm addicted to running. Not me.
Yeah, but like, like I'm addicted to exercise, I'm
addicted to dieting and that could end up being bad for you
too. But the point is that like this
person is, you know, in the spirit of this podcast, this
person learn new skills and how to mitigate, manage and overcome

(31:46):
and then is applying those same skills for other parts that they
deem not necessary in their lifeto to hopefully for the
betterment. Right, I'll tell.
You what? I'll tell you social work in
general. I think social work is a.
Concept it is a fantasy is an ideal.
Tell me more. So social work is.
Basically like dismantling systems and making things more

(32:11):
equitable and an ideal, but it'sit's only like framework that
doesn't teach you specific skills to achieve goals.
It teaches you about things thatare wrong in the world.
And then like, all right, Team us together will hopefully
change it. It's like my big pushback on it
is that it's like this nice concept of like, let's defund

(32:33):
all these things, let's redistribute the funds.
But there's never, we're never really taught like what are
specific things that we should be doing to actually achieve
these goals? So it ends up becoming a lot of
people who are very strong in their opinions, but not strong
in their solutions. All right, if you're rewriting
the. Playbook for social work?
What chapters would you add? Yeah, I, I think.

(32:57):
That it would be like understanding systems all
together, right? Like it takes this account of
saying like this is oppressive and but doesn't say like why
it's oppressive and why it wouldbe impossible to actually stop
in today's like things are achieved when there's mutual
benefit to stuff, right? I came into this program as

(33:17):
someone who I would define myself as liberal.
It's made me my conviction even more about like, building
relationships, communicating, having disagreements, having
deep meaningful connections to understand what it is that is
going on in people's lives so that I can actually feel that
and understand like what? OK now?

(33:39):
Like I had this opinion of something and now it's shifting
a little bit and now I'm hearingmore and I'm learning more.
How much of your program? Are you doing to serve those
that are in need and how much isit influencing sort of your
continuation on sobriety and, and and being surrounded by
this? So I think. 0% of it was because

(34:00):
I want to be a social worker. It was because I wanted to what
being a social worker would provide me in terms of being a
clinician. I could do more.
I have access to more I could influence more positively in the
world that I hope to aspire. And then again, because I think
that it's important to like not going to into places being like,

(34:23):
I'm not going to learn anything.And this is just for the degree
and I'm going to have it like I was open minded.
Well, I I doubt you. Haven't learned anything.
Oh yeah. Oh, I've.
Learned. I've learned almost so much, but
so much of it has been based on the human interaction, Like how
people like, talk about their issues, their life, their

(34:47):
situation, and like what it takes and, and also like the
human mind about like all these people are dealing with these
things and like, how capable arethey to actually work with
people who really need the help,right?
It's not just the skills. That you've gained.
It's right. It's like most people are
working. Through their trauma by trying
to help things. I came into that program being

(35:08):
10 years sober and having like done a lot of that work prior to
come in there. Like there's still progress that
I'm trying to work on myself, all of us, right?
But I think that a large part ofit was like, I also been working
in the field for five years. A lot of people just came from a
BSW program and now we're going to be social workers in a year
from now. As opposed to me being a

(35:30):
substance abuse counselor and then being like, oh, I could use
this extra credential because itwould really help me if the
credentials. You needed to actually drive
impact. You needed, you needed the
credentials in order to not justlearn the skills, but to also
give you access and the ability for you to drive impact in what
you want to do right. And I and I think.
That like, you know, climate is always shifting, right?
Like, and I think that it's likesometimes you can't just be

(35:53):
bogged down. Like I still need to go to work,
right? Like I still need to go to work.
I still need to treat patients. But if I'm so, if things are
constantly acutely affecting me day-to-day on like the global
environment, socioeconomic type of stuff.
I need to. Be able to like work on my stuff

(36:13):
and be able to go to work. And I'm learning in, in these
programs, even the lingo is different.
Like I'm where I'm at it, they call themselves a generalist
practice and most places are like clinical practice.
So not only are they not teaching us the clinical skills,
like, you know, different modalities, they're just
teaching us theories about things and not teaching us how

(36:35):
to actually impact positive change.
We should know about all the things that are happening in
this world, but not a place of like actually teaching me how to
do the things that you're telling me to do.
Right. OK, So then I guess.
Is that any different than many undergraduate or graduate
degrees in that people coming out of college or any kind of

(36:57):
apprenticeship or something thatthe actual hands on real world
experience is, is vastly different than than than what
you may have assumed it was going to be or what you were
taught or the skills that you and knowledge you gained during
your course work. I think that your internship.
Your your practicum, your clinical hours, like that's
where you're going to get your own, the nitty gritty.
You're going to get down to business, you're going to get to

(37:19):
actually work and do the things that like you're being taught in
school. Again, because like if you're
just going to give me like a PowerPoint slide on on cognitive
behavioral therapy, that's not teaching it either.
But there are ways to apply skills, right?
And then use those applied skills to then build upon in
your actual workplace experience.

(37:39):
That doesn't mean that you're going to expect it to go into Co
facilitating a group and like begood at running a group on like
I'd say on cognitive behavioral therapy, but that's where you're
getting your practice. But you can't go into it like I
can't just all of a sudden be like, Oh, I wasn't taught about
this and I'm going to go do a CBT group.
You know, there's a way to applythese things in the classroom.

(38:00):
But again, they'll tell you thatwe're not a clinical program.
We're a general practice. And if you ask them what that
means, they'll tell you something like, Oh, we are an
eclectic approach to treating everyone.
Sure which? You can make your.
Own definition of what that means.
How do you think? Other individuals going through
this program who haven't gone through that personal struggle,

(38:23):
how do they look at you perhaps differently?
I think that there is definitelyan.
Aesthetic. I am way more equipped to handle
things from a variety of ways that I would now.
My worldview is wider, my bandwidth to handle criticism.
You know, I think like, the greatest gift that I would say I

(38:44):
probably got from sobriety was because, like, I knew that at
some point the community was going to know that I was, you
know, in recovery. Like that shame of like, losing.
That helped me tremendously to accept feedback and take
feedback in a way that is a asset.
And it's such a big skill that people are not telling me things
to put me down. They're telling me things to

(39:05):
help me grow like this idea of positive intent.
Yes, there are some people who are really trying to hurt you
right There are it's it's inevitable.
But if I always think that way, I'm always assuming that someone
is telling me something for somenegative reason that is so
harmful to me because I'm never hearing the message.
I'm just hearing a, a tone and by being that person that's like

(39:28):
not going to be defensive about it.
I now learn that like, wow, people care about me and they
tell me about things that are going that I'm not doing right,
and I can hear them. That is a huge skill.
I think, I think it's everything.
Accepting first of all. Wanting, seeking, Yeah, critical
feedback is, is its own thing. I mean, you see as a parent on

(39:49):
the team. Right.
I, I always put this thing out like, please, like have this
conversation. And I know like again, I'm not a
parent, so you have to like havecontacts.
I would ask, you know, you know John about, about the coaching
thing and he would say. You don't understand how parents
think. This is how parents think.
Like if they they're not going to come to you because they're
going to, it's going to affect the kids playing time.

(40:10):
Well, right, Everyone's always worried.
About how's this going to impactsame thing like going to a
teacher or an administrator and complaining about something at a
school and worrying, well, is the teacher now going to bias
against my child is going to come and affect affect them.
And same thing with like. So Jeremy, you're you coach JD
high school basketball. I'm curious what kind of skills
you're bringing from your socialwork into your coaching.
Right. Well, I think.

(40:31):
One is thinking about like the proximity to my guys.
Like I think that I was when I was coaching varsity, I was like
hyper competitive. Like I would like, I want to win
like out like I want as a player.
And again, when you're dealing with like varsity level players,
there's not as much as instruction as need to be
taught, right? So like you can kind of like not

(40:52):
need to work on the basics and then you kind of jump in and
hopefully like you're running the plays and they're playing
hard and you can do these things.
When you start coaching JV, it'slike, wow, you're realizing that
like, OK, we need to work on some fundamentals here.
We need to have some patience. It's not about the wins and the
losses. It's about growing and, and
doing these things while also like like wanting to win.

(41:12):
How much of your coaching is about?
Basketball versus character building.
Oh, I think it's. You know, I think it's at this
point, I would say it's like 5050 because I realized that
like, I can't be engaged as a basketball coach without being
engaged in their lives. Like it without understanding
getting to know these guys as like human beings rather than

(41:36):
like seeing them as like or justa basketball team, right?
And I think that's like a hard dynamic to build.
But I think that's the rewardingpart.
It's like you learn that each ofthese players are unique.
They work uniquely as a as a group and they work uniquely
independently. And how do you help them become
the best basketball players theycan be while also maturing as

(41:59):
young men who are learning how to advocate for their needs,
right? How to communicate?
You know, my goal is always like, they have a great time,
right? A great experience with with
each other that they're growing,that even if you're the last guy
on the team, right, that this isa fun experience because it
should be. It should be about camaraderie
and like, you know, you're goingto practice with these guys.

(42:20):
And I know practice isn't like the fun part, but it should be.
It could be right? It could be.
And I think that it's the skillsthat I bring there.
It's like for me, it's that accepting that feedback.
I think there was a part I was like, pretty rigid, let's go in
there. We're going to do our thing.
If they complain, it's on them. If it if they're not working
hard, it's on them. And I was like, well, why aren't
they working hard? Like, what's making it that they

(42:41):
don't want to play hard or, you know, they don't want to work on
this or they're not Like, I put the onus more on myself to be a
basketball coach. OK, If they're not getting this
right or this play isn't working, like why?
How do I breaking it down? Like, oh, maybe they don't know
how to set a pic. Did I teach them how to set a
pic? How much time did I plan on

(43:02):
setting a pic? It's funny.
I like they used the term. Fundamentals earlier and then
you immediately talked about theyou know them as as, as human
beings and communication and fundamentals aren't just
dribbling and shooting. It's, it's very much about that
camaraderie, about the communication about being in it
for the right reasons and feeling like you're part of a
team, not an independent individual star.

(43:23):
And that it's, it's such an important part of their, of
their personal childhood and character development in this
role that you play. Earlier in the conversation, you
talked a little bit for a secondand I didn't want to interrupt
your flow, but you talked about having conversations with kids
and what that's like. Somebody might call you and say,
my kid is suffering or this is happening in this population,

(43:46):
this community, this school, andyou're either asked for advice
or, or even maybe to come in andjust have a conversation
one-on-one or with a group setting.
How receptive are kids to thingslike substance abuse at a young
age And let's let's call it likehigh school years?
I I mean I can tell you exactly.How it was, I mean, there's a an
organization that asked me to come in and speak.
It wasn't so much about my personal story.

(44:08):
It was like they had a curriculum and it was kind of
like teach the curriculum. I, I saw like even when they got
to AQ and a part of it, the kidsweren't interested about the
facts that they had just learned.
Right, Right. They were.
Like they want. They would have much rather have
heard a personal story from me and that doesn't mean that
either one would have been like more beneficial or the other.

(44:29):
I think that it's easy for a parent to worry about substance
use because like they, they havethe experience of life to know
that it's a serious thing to worry about.
If I don't know if I again, if I've never know anybody who has
had addiction issues, I don't know anybody who's ever
experienced something like addiction or what that means.
It's very hard for me to conceptualize what that even

(44:52):
means. Like how would I even get there,
right? Like like this seems so far
away. It's abstract.
It's. Not relatable, but This is why.
I find it to be so important forme to speak about any time I can
because we always hear about thedangers of addiction and how bad
it is, but we never see, we don't really rarely hear about
like what overcoming it looks like, what it means to live a a

(45:14):
positive like women growth, right?
Like to me, it's the biggest asset of my life.
The greatest thing that's ever happened to me was because I
struggle with addiction. So with players, it's like, it's
not about being like, go to coach and he's going to tell you
don't do this. It's going to be really
terrible. Yeah, I can tell you.
I can tell you the terrible things that happen for sure, but
that's not what's going to stop you.

(45:36):
What may stop you is that you have a moment where you're in a
position like we earlier about, you know, your friends are
drinking. And I don't really want to do it
and I'm thinking about doing it,that I have a person that I can
call and be like, coach, what would you do in the situation?
What should I do? I'm not feeling a certain way
about it, right? If I had a conversation with my

(45:57):
team, if I had to find out my team was drinking, I would say
to them, listen, I can't help you if the school if you get in
trouble at school and you're drinking in school, here's what
dangerous about it, but. Also, why?
Are you doing it right? What is it that makes you want
to do it? And they say, hey, coach, I'm
just curious, do you get satisfying answers though?
When? They say why are you doing it

(46:17):
and if and forget about curiosity, but again, what is?
Satisfying meaning like. Satisfying.
I'll give you. Let me give you an example of
dissatisfactory answers, which would be things like I don't
know, or other people are doing it or what's the what's the big
deal? What's the problem, right.
So those to me though, those areclassic answers to almost any
subject, man, Almost anything. Like, I don't know.

(46:40):
And so a satisfying answer mightbe something like, I like the
way it makes me feel. Yeah.
A satisfying answer doesn't meanthat you like the answer means
that satisfies the question. Rick, why are you doing
Satisfying answer might be something like I always started
because I was curious and I'm not sure why I I keep doing it
or I feel the peer pressure. Not just everyone's doing it.

(47:02):
It's literally acknowledging that I'm not sure I want to, but
I feel the pressure, right? And therefore I'm doing it even
though I know it's wrong, right?So again, we're satisfied.
The difference they say to me that satisfying answers helps me
formulate interventions. If someone says to me the peer
pressure is just so intense, right?
I'm thinking about environment. What is the environment that

(47:23):
this like that's that this person is constantly feeling
that he has intense peer pressure.
Someone's like to me. Oh, I really like the way it
makes me feel. I'm like, OK, what's going on in
in this kids life that he he needs to feel buzzed for him to
feel good because well also, I mean I.
That it doesn't I don't think ithas to be binary.
I don't think it has to be 0 sumin that.

(47:45):
Like I can't feel good unless, but it could be, yeah, things
are good in my life and I feel good about all these other
things and this also makes me feel good.
Then there's there's. Actual consequences, right,
right. If you love basketball and let's
say like at school has a drug testing policy, I can't help you
here if you got to the point where.
Where you're doing this, you know the rules, the school found

(48:07):
out about it and now you're off the team.
It's too late, right? At least for being a player on
the team, right? Right.
It's not too late for seeking help and for me to support you
otherwise, right? So you know.
Again, So it's like then it's like, how much do you like
basketball? And then like if you told me I
love basketball more than anything in this world, but yet
you keep is that effective? When you when you when you put

(48:27):
into the context of if you keep doing this or if you're found to
do it even once, it could risk or jeopardize your ability to
have access to these things thatare healthy and you do like
doing. Do you find kids at these ages?
The frontal. Lobe is not.
Fully developed yet? I mean I I'm told it's till 25
but I think mine is still developing.

(48:48):
I do you think that they are they can actually make that
connection between the risk and reward or consequence, I'm not
sure. In terms of like because again,
not, not not data that's been and we're talking about general.
We're using General like overarching I I, I.
Think I think is what I find to be interesting is that the

(49:09):
divulgence of information from my players varies from like
there are some, you know, serious things that people have
discussed with me like a breakup, right?
Wanted to talk about a breakup to like totally just never
giving me a straight answer likeit's clear that they're just
they just don't want to tell me anything.
But it varies. You start seeing things right?

(49:31):
Like you know how I pattern limited time trials, things that
are going on where you're like, OK, I'm going to look at this
and I'm going to see if this is happening all the time.
If this is one practice bad weekend, what's going on home.
But what I I stressed, and it's important is the parents.
They have such insight to their kids.
They also have biases. They have.

(49:52):
Blinders sometimes for sure, butagain, this is what I'm saying
like. I will tell a parent my personal
opinion, not out of like I'm because of my I'm not no, it's
an observation. Say like, hey this.
Is what I'm saying. Let me know if there's something
else I should know about at homeor if you were unaware of this,
maybe, maybe watch for it. I'll see, because I'll take a
great lesson that. Happened once, I had a kid whose
father was like the father who would just yell on the side on

(50:14):
the side. Of the court, not yell at the
coach, but just like. Yell at at at his son and, and I
was like, in my head, my assumption was he can handle me
being a maniac because he's got the biggest maniac in the crowd.
I was expecting that I could coach him as the hardest and it

(50:35):
had to be a player on the team came to me at some point and was
like no coach. Like he.
Needs some TLC. And that really shifted.
Against the feedback part, that defensiveness part is like this
understanding that I need to open those lines of
communication from wherever theycome.
Again, the sorting through the data is different, but the more

(50:56):
data I have, the more I can cometo conceptualize what I have in
front of me, right? Have you ever seen like FL?
You know, I have to show you like what a good like case
conceptualization looks like, right?
There are good ones and there are bad ones, and a good one
doesn't mean that it was, you know, a dissertation paper.
A good one is that it has the details that are important to

(51:18):
the situation. I need to know what happened
prior to the fact, what led up to this, these type of things.
So instead of being like, I'm the coach, no, I'm going to
coach him how I want to coach him.
When a player who spent his past10 years in school with his best
friend is telling me he needs some love would be a.
Fool not to take. It so too, when I come to

(51:39):
parents and I say just tell me what's going on.
Like, you know, if it's a playing time thing, we can agree
to disagree. We're not here to agree, right,
But tell me what you're seeing. Oh, coach, you're just you're
really, really hard on. Tell me more like how do you
know I'm hard on him? Right?
For all you know, they come. Home and the kid feels down when

(52:00):
he's home because of your interaction and you're unaware
of that you know an hour or two hours later, right there's a
player on the team last. Year where I heard that he told
his parents though like no coachdoesn't like me right I'm and
I'm certain that that's. Not the truth at all.
I I don't I I don't I I. Don't like, I like them all,
like they're all great kids, butbut when they said that, I was

(52:21):
like, why does he think I don't like him?
Right? What am I what?
What? Am I saying or doing that's
leading him to believe that thatI'm not liked by my coach?
Kids have that same experience in school a lot.
We all know this, like growing up ourselves or hearing it from
other people. This.
Teacher doesn't like me, right? It's probably not true.

(52:43):
Now. That teacher might not like your
shenanigans, I think. But but it's different from.
Not like, but. That's what I'm saying.
I think patience. If I'm I'm a human being, our
patient, we have limited amount of patience.
When I lose my patience, it's onme to do something about it, not
to have a kid think I don't likehim because I chewed him out.

(53:04):
I learned that because I would Iwould do that.
I would be. I'm a fiery coach, but if I have
a moment like that, I make it a personal mission of myself to
speak with that kid personally after the game because I don't
want that narrative to be out there.
That coach took me out of the game and he was barking at me
and I because of this mistake and he hates me now.

(53:25):
I'm never going to play. He doesn't like me.
It can't be like that just because my patients with them in
a moment changes because if you're in school, right, if
you're if you think your teacherhates you and you're like, then
you become the kid who's OK teacher's going to send me out
again. Teachers always that self
fulfilling right? You start.
Behaving that way because you'retold this is who I am.
So for, that's how you're going to behave.

(53:46):
It's I will. Definitely rise to that that.
That level, if you want me to, 100% because I'm kid.
Yeah, and. And, and sports is even harder
not to put down teachers. It's a hard job.
Sports is even harder. Why?
And I say that because it's, it's an environment where we are
fueling, we are, we are seeking that heightened level of, of
energy and emotions. We're, we're doing nothing to

(54:08):
avoid it. In fact, we're trying to create
it. We want that high energy.
We want those emotional investment, right?
And so we're creating this pressure cooker.
You put anyone in those situations, you have to be Phil
Jackson's Zen did not lose your temper and even he lost his
temper, right? I I I think I.
Think showing emotion right is important, right?
It shows my engagement. Like I don't know how to like be

(54:31):
a basketball coach who is not like highly charged and
emotionally no, and maybe a little bit loud out there.
But it's important that that's directed correctly and
appropriately so that it's not ever meant to be like demeaning
towards my players. It doesn't mean that you can't
be corrective. Your your job as a coach, you're
supposed to correct them. No, it's critical.

(54:52):
And constructive feedback, right?
And again if it. Comes out as like, you know, you
know, what are you doing out there?
OK, well, that's really not helpful to say to somebody.
What do you do? There's a million things you
could be doing right. But like you say those things
and it doesn't always mean that you're just like trying to be,
you know, like we all do that It's it's the.
Shorthand I I didn't have the moment to think of a more
constructive way to say what I really wanted to say, so I'm

(55:14):
just going to say this thing. Do I really think that this
person doesn't know how to use his turn signal when he's
driving? No, but I'm going to make the
assumption right now. Why?
Because it's easy, but it's a little bit lazy.
I I think to like the the self. Fulfilling prophecy thing right?
Like one of those things that, you know, Viktor Frankel, man,
search for meaning, like that book changed my life.
But there's also another talk that he has where he talks about

(55:36):
something called overshooting the runway, right?
It's like when pilots land, theydo something called overshooting
the runway because the aerodynamics, like you'll go
like this, but then eventually you'll land.
We're supposed to do so he says,like to that same concept.
When we take people at face value, we make them less.
When we believe in what they canbecome, they find their middle

(55:57):
ground. And I, it's like an interesting
thing because my whole life was like, oh, take people at face
value. Take people at face value.
Like that's something that I constantly heard as like this is
how I should approach and see people.
But no, that makes more sense tome.
I need to believe that people can be better, that there's
growth always, that they can be really like special.

(56:19):
And if I encourage people to do that, maybe they find that extra
gear that they wouldn't have hadthey been just told like, hey,
OK, you're being annoying, get out of class, right?
I go for a 5 minute walk. Like if I'm always perceived as
the kid with ADD and I'm super hyper and they're just
constantly instead of being like10 minutes left and look guys,
you can do this. I got you, you can do this.
Just stay with me for a little bit positive.

(56:40):
Encouragement, right? But like also like being.
Realistic, recognizing that I know it's hard for you to sit
still. I know it's hard for me like
let's do this. What do?
What do you need to make this experience better?
And they, like I said, they may not give you a satisfying
answer. Maybe eventually they do.
Maybe they eventually feel like the trust that they have in you
that they're being seen. And I've seen it happen where

(57:01):
now you're asked to be a part of, like, collaboration teams
with workers in the school. They're a personal therapist.
So that, like, now we know we have releases of information
signed. And now I can be connected to,
like, my players therapist. Like, that's cool, yeah.
That's where real, that's real impact can happen.
You're doing you're doing great work and on behalf of everybody
in society and thank you. And everybody else is doing this

(57:23):
important work out there to carefor others and to take your
experience and to use it in sucha positive way to influence the
direction of, you know, young minds, but also anybody at any
age. And I think it's really
important work. And I just want to say thank
you, appreciate you. Good man, Noah.
Good man. I want to thank Jeremy for being
a. Guest on today's episode of
Transferable Skills and to your listeners for joining us on this

(57:45):
episode. Remember, the skills you've
gained can take you anywhere. Until next time, keep exploring
those transferable skills.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Family Business into Certified Alcohol & Drug Counselor | Jeremy Geller [53]