#64 - Between Good and Bad: Where Black Bears Eat Eagles - Guest: Terry Brockie - Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shandin Pete (00:03):
How many times have we heard that one? Yeah, I
like your costume.

Terry Brockie (00:12):
Costume. I take a picture you. Yeah, I

honestly had someone asked to touch my hair.
Can I touch your hair? Why?
That's weird, isn't it? I mean,even just for regular people,
you know, I'm gonna do that tosomebody I see this random, Hey,
can I touch your hair?

See what happens.
You're asking a braid it noAaron, either. I was

going to start introducing myself, you know,
you know how they do, like atconferences and stuff, you know,
Hi, my name is, well, my, myIndian name is whatever,
whatever in my, my colonial nameis whatever, whatever, what. I
didn't have a colonial name, andI think I should start giving

(01:07):
myself one, you know. So I'm,I'm, I'm thinking, I'm liking
Dan. Dan Johnson

just put sir In front of that you

uh, yeah, I remember all through school,
Like, um, elementary, you know,when they used to have, I don't
know, they still have it, likeIndian Studies, like we'd all go
to Indian Studies, and it wasalways somebody's relative
teaching it, you know. And theyall knew every well, if a small

(02:17):
town, you know, everybody knowseverybody. And so at some point
in class, this would alwayshappen, and they say, does
anybody know any Indian words?
This was back in the time whenthings were still pretty low,
you know everybody? No, notreally, no, no, you do. She
would say, you do. They'd belike we do, yeah, and he'd point

(02:40):
at me, you know, his name,that's the Indian word. I'd get
singled out. And, yeah, man,yeah. Guess there's a point. I
didn't want to I just wanted aregular name. Never happened.
Never happened to you like youjust get sick of your regular

(03:03):
name and you want a differentone.

Aaron Brien (03:09):
I never did. I

never just like Aaron. It's kind

of like I didn't think much about it. You didn't
think about it. I was a littlekid. I was just worried about
sticks.

Yeah, look at this cool rock, man. I bet I could
throw it over that mountain. Mysister is like that. When she
got sick of her name, she'slike, I want you to guys start
calling me by my middle name. Sowe did. It only took to call her
like a few times and she gotsick of it. It's like, No, I

(03:42):
don't call me that. No more.
What's up? You guys? What'sgoing on?

Boxes on move today, doing all kinds of stuff.
Yeah, we're cleaning. Our tribegave me some buffalo skulls. So
we're, we're out skinningbuffalo skulls and nice and draw
bones off and nice and, youknow, for once, not attracting

(04:13):
the flies. They were going tothe buffalo skulls out of flies
over me instead, you know,

hey, tell me if you recognize The song, both
both you and Aaron. Guys, ready?
You?

(05:33):
Yeah, Yeah,

yeah, I've heard that tune before.

Oh yeah, I've heard it more than I wish to
have ever heard it. No, I likeit. It's like one of those. It's
like one of those forever songs.
If you can't think of a song,you hear that in your head, oh,
I got one. Yeah. That wasrecorded in Fort Belknap 19 and

(06:15):
77 Yep. What it got? Four score,what's four score? Four score,
and I don't know,

seven years is it?

I knew you'd know.
I knew you'd know that. I don't

know. You don't know. I always wondered that
honestly, Four score and sevenyears ago or

school? Yeah, what is that I had to google it? I
don't know, man, so I had aquestion. I had a question
because I was reading. I wasreading something about your

(07:09):
your what's the word, your kin,your tribal people? And it's
pretty familiar. I mean it. Imean I read it, and I go, yeah,
that's that makes sense. And Ithink I want to hear more or
your thoughts on it. I'm justtrying to find it. Where the
heck is that I lost it? Want toget you and Aaron's take on

(07:38):
this. Okay, okay, here's what itsays. I'm going to just read it
the Indian people, at least theGros Ventre thought the
psychological effect of publicopinion is so great and intense
on the one whom it was trainedthat it shortened his life and

(08:01):
made him a nobody, if he had along, long life, it was
certainly a miserable one. Itwas definitely known by the Gros
Ventre that they actuallythought people to death.

You know, in as I understand it, and it's been
taught to our people just likewords, huh? Yeah, it's, you
know, you make bad talk, youmake good talk. You know what I
mean, yeah, people, you canthrow negativity at them and and
amongst our people, thoughtpower has always been something

(08:40):
that that has been prevalent inour belief system. Yeah, it's
like in, I don't know,psychological, environmental,
instrumental control to havegood thoughts. You know what I
mean? Because, yeah, you knowthe idea of just thinking, if
you think that way, you mightmake it happen, just like your
words. Yeah, so, so we are ourpeople were always trained to

(09:06):
have good thoughts, good words,because, and then, and then
it's, you know, and it's thekarma thing too, you know that,
you know, that could come backon you and as well. Yeah, so, so
that was kind of another kind ofinstrumental control, of like, I
guess, kind of in a sense, like,social order, you know, I would

(09:28):
say, Yeah, best way, and, andwhat's this? It like, I know, I
don't know, but, I mean, Iunderstand, you know that you
know, the to teach your childrenthrough lecture, that's always

(09:50):
been a traditional way of ours,yeah, once on and our Grove want
as we're known, yeah, is to, youknow, lecture our children. I.
About, you know, having goodthoughts, having and have, and
even even, like, even in ourlanguage, it's really cool,
because I teach this a lot inour college because, like, I

(10:10):
mean, and I try to explain that,and like, like, in, like, in a
lot of plain sign language tothink people will put their
finger out towards their heart,from their heart, you know. And
American, we might put tap ittowards our temple, and but even
in our language, there's,there's like, ways that mean use
of heart. And then there's a wayof, like, saying it, like, I'm

(10:34):
be like saying I'm tired, andthen I could say, Oh, I'm
getting tired, you know. And soit's you're not there yet, you
know. So we have a way of sayingit that way, just like we do in
English, but and then there's,then there's this term it saw we
use, which means to use mentalcapability, and then your breath
and then your word. So I alwaystry to teach that to our

(10:57):
students to understandphilosophy that, you know,
everything starts with yourheart and so and even, like,
like, a term that we use forthink, is asset saw, which means
to think, that's a word whenthere's there's nice means
before you have mental activity,it's kind of a concept. I guess

(11:19):
it's pretty cool, but I but Ithink it's really cool. I try to
convey that to them, because itcreates critical thought. You
see what I mean, and it bindsyou to your heart. And so then I
go out and tell them a littlebit about, like, the
physiological sides of it, if,like, someone got their leg cut
off, or they were in a coma andthey were brain dead, or or they

(11:42):
lost an eye, or they can't hear,as long as their hearts go and
they're alive, but the minuteyour heart stops, you're done.
That's it. That's day, you know.
You're you're finished, youknow. And so I try to teach
that, you know, just tounderstand philosophy, because
just kind of, kind of, like yousaid, you know your word? Oh,
does anybody know a word? Andthere's such a renaissance. I
believe in Indian country now,you know, and all I see it a lot

(12:04):
all over Indian country, ofpeople trying to revitalize
their languages and their andtheir their customs and their
pathways and and it's allembedded in our language, if we
look deep enough, that's just mymy thoughts and my belief of the
whole thing. But that thoughtpower. I firmly have been taught
that, you know, since I wasyoung. I mean, that's, that's a,

(12:26):
really a custom of our people.

Yeah, it's a familiar one. And Aaron and I
have talked about it a number oftimes, but more so on the other
side. You know, where we're,where we're wishing or making a
wish upon someone, yup, but justlike anything you know, you can
always go the opposite way too,you know, and cause harm through

(12:50):
your thoughts and Nope, I knowthat's, that's, I think That
that is evident in in some ofthe customs of of long ago, I
guess when you know, it was likeone of the, one of the crimes of
humanity during that time wasgossiping, you know, yeah,

(13:12):
gossiping is really, really,really highly frowned upon and,
and I think that that was One ofthe reasons, because you can
cause harm, unintended harm, ormaybe and even intended harm,
which you shouldn't do amongyour own people, you know,

yeah, yeah, as well, yeah.

My curiosity, I guess, was also in that, that
same regard, like, like, I wastrying to trace these pathways
of like, what we talked aboutlast time, about reciprocity,
you know, like you do somethingfor somebody that's that's an
easy pathway because you'reexchanging a good or a deed or

(13:59):
task or something. You can seeit happening if you're doing it
to another individual. But Ithink what's less concrete, not
that it has to be. But is thisthing like when you're when
you're wishing for someone to dowell or wishing for someone to

(14:19):
do not well, like, what, wheredoes it go, and what is the
thing that acts to make thatthing a possibility to happen?
If you know what I mean,

kind of gets into that back then stuff, you know,
I just just follow, you know, wehave we say, what gates in our
language, they say, Oh, and, andevery tribe almost always has
that, you know, yeah, you know,like even in today, you know
this, my wife will say,Jeanette, you know, they say, or
that's what it means. Andalways, kind of refers to our

(14:57):
ancient people or ancestorsbefore us. Yes. And so I always
just try to, I don't I, I guess,been always taught someone makes
bad words towards you or badthoughts towards you, maybe, who
knows, but just say a prayer forthem. And yeah, it's for them,

(15:19):
you know. Yeah, you know. Sothat's where I was, kind of,
yeah, when I kind of, I don'tknow. That's how I always kind
of just think about it, try tobe good and kind and Yeah,
another you'll be okay. Then,then you're watched over. Yeah,

yeah. The reason I ask is because, well, I mean, I
have a sense, you know, that,that the pathway is, of course,
a spiritual pathway, right? Andwe don't really know, we can't
even pretend to know what, whathappens to that. But this was,

(15:57):
this was the thing that kind of,I guess made a dilemma for me,
is that and Aaron and I can't,was it? I think was episode ago
we talked about this in what wewere thinking was an imposed
belief about, like, you may haveheard this about bad spirits,

(16:19):
you know. Oh, don't do that.
You're gonna bring in badspirits, you know? And we were,
we were tossing around thisidea, and I sort of, were we
talking about that, right?
Aaron, confirm for me, yeah,yeah. Okay, good, okay, yeah,

yeah, we he

has spoken. He was on his phone. He was on his
phone and he was getting, he'sgetting this old man look, you
know, them that look, when that,when the old, old, like that,
old guys on the phone got hisdownturn mouth and really
looking.

I was intently listening.

Okay, so this is the dilemma. Okay, we didn't
talk about this is the dilemmacome to know, sort of an
understanding, as you grow inyour your understanding of both
spirituality and your traditionand your customs, to know that
it doesn't seem like there's athere's a wicked spirit out
there that's out to do harm. Youknow, I think maybe they can

(17:21):
inadvertently do harm throughthis. What if you believe that
they can inadvertently do harm,potentially, and this is just a
thought. I'm just walkingthrough these weird thoughts I
got. So then I think, well, allright, if, if you ascribe to
that, what I mean? What is thewhat is the force? Then I can
see the good, right? If we wishgood on somebody, I can see, I

(17:44):
can see that going off into somearea that we don't quite fully
understand, and then it comingback to do good for someone. But
what I don't get is, what is thething that causes the harm? So
the dilemma is, I don't thinkthis is my opinion, that there's

(18:05):
this bad or evil spirit. Kind ofthink it's maybe a an adaptation
of the church. But, you know,I'm just, I'm not, I don't know
for sure, but that's my thought.
So then, if that's the case, I'mlike, thinking badly about
someone. What's the force or thething? Then that causes, like, I
read in there, causes someone todie.

Well, you got to define what's bad first.

Okay, so bad would be like,

if it was 200 years ago when I was going to go to
war against somebody, yeah, andI, I've made a wish to vanquish
my enemies. Oh, yeah.

Is that? Yeah?
That's, that's borderline,right? Because it's not, is that
bad for you?

And now times it's bad to do that. But was it? What
was it? Then,

that's a good question, you know? I mean,
because I think about, like,there's like, you know, and just
understanding, trying toconstantly understand more and
more of our culture. And I kindof think I use the example,
like, what you use? So usingthat, say, there was a warrior
that went out say, we use thesegentlemen behind me in my

(19:24):
screen, you know, but you know,if someone, some tribe, was
coming to more or less try torub them out, they're protecting
their people, and they're inour, our existence, more or
less. And then you think aboutit today, and this is kind of
one thing that I always thinkabout is, like American culture,

(19:47):
maybe you might even use say,you know, like 1945 ticker tape
parades down New York City, youknow, Guy soldiers, kissing
girls. And then you had Vietnamand and. There's people of
evidently, and I was just, youknow, I, I was born during the
Vietnam era, you know, I'mdating myself, but, but that's
where, that's when I was born.
So I don't have any but I hearpeople, you know, spitting on

(20:12):
these warriors for calling them,you know, baby killers and this
and that. And, yeah, they'retrying to protect and so now,
today, we see a lot of what theycall PTSD with our warriors, and
rightfully so. But at the sametime, when I think back to our
culture, we had, like, we hadwhat they call bragging
contests, where, where, whereour warriors would get up and

(20:35):
tell deeds, you know, andthere's, there's things in our
culture where there's times whenwarriors stand up and tell war
stories or, or when they,they're, they're in a certain
place or position within somekind of cultural event or
ceremony, you know? And those,to me, were always like, kind of
our traditional coping systems.

(20:57):
And then you have, you havelike, so I don't know, when you
get back to the kind of the bat,I don't just, like, you said,
Aaron, I'm kind of in Aaron'scamp, you know. I mean, in the
sense of, like, hey, if, if wedon't, we don't stop these guys,
my children are going to die,and my wife and my mother and I
have to protect at all, allcosts, you know. So I don't, I

(21:18):
don't think in that realm. But,I mean, I tie it to maybe, maybe
we talk like our tricksters. Andevery tribe has some sort of
trickster. And my view of it is,is they embody, you know, all of
men, man's fallacies, hisstrengths, everything, and, and,

(21:39):
and so man can be fallible tooand do things, and man can be
really great and do things, and,yeah, just this is how we all
can be. So I would say it's usthat do that. If we're going to
do something like that, it'sgoing to be us as as as people
like that, you know. So Iwouldn't say maybe I don't know.

(22:00):
I just, I don't know, but that'sjust my thoughts, my two cents,
yeah, good words, something.
Stay negative. Just don't saynothing. Say good prayer for
them, or think good wishes forthem. They find peace. You know,
that's how I look at it,

yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's, that's an importantAaron that yeah, there's the old
man. Look, put your phone upnow, put your phone up. Yeah.
There it is. Yeah, yeah. Thenyou try to talk to him too. They

(22:43):
don't even listen to you.
They're just worse than they'reworse than kids you know, stuck
on their phone. Man,

I'm just listening to this conversation and
wondering where just get to thenitty gritty. Man, like I did
talk about here, this is whatI'm talking about. I think in
order for you to ask thatquestion, yeah, even the very
idea of asking that question isstill kind of rooted in some
sort of Christendom idea, okay,this idea of like, good versus

(23:18):
evil still, yeah, but I don'tthink that's like tribal, tribal
beliefs didn't, don't fall inthose categories. Yeah, because
you can make good wishes foryour clan children or for your
relatives and your friends,yeah? That same ability to do
that allows you to make badwishes. Yeah? So, yeah, the idea

(23:42):
that there's something I don'tknow, I just don't know what
that it depends on what's askedof you. I think in today's
morality, it's, it's easier tosay, Oh, I wouldn't do that
because yeah, A, B and C, yeah.
But back then, yeah, I don'twant to say things are, there
was a casual confidence thatexisted with our beliefs that I

(24:07):
think we lack today, even evensome of the most competent,
culturally competent people,yeah, we lack. We're okay. So
if, if we're in a constant stateof understanding our beliefs,
yeah, I think that's apredicament that only exists

(24:29):
today. I don't know if ourancestors struggled with with
identity and how to move withinin that. So when you ask us,
yeah, there's things that are somuch ingrained in us. Yeah, both
native belief and non nativebelief, whether we say we're
Christian or not Christian,there's no denying that the

(24:51):
Christian belief system hasinfluenced us. Yeah, I think
there's a way. It's just the wayit is. You. So, like, if you
were to say, hey, Terry, Couldyou, could you ask for bad for
somebody? Just that thequestion, the way the question
is phrased, has it's coming fromthat thing, yeah, so I don't

(25:12):
know. Like, I think 200 yearsago, one of my clan children
came to me and said, I want tokill my enemy, and I was a
successful warrior, that's whatI'm gonna wish for, and there's
not gonna be this, like, innerlike, Oh my gosh. What's wrong?
What is wrong? Yeah, you know,yeah. Like, there's not gonna be

(25:33):
this. Like, are you sure that'swhat you want to do? This whole
system is based off of thissuccess in battle, success with
spiritual power, success withthe way your home looks, the way
your your your the health ofyour children, so your community
views you and says, Look, he'sgot good fortune, right? He's

(25:56):
got good luck. That's what Iwant. And the ultimate form of
testing that luck is in battle.
There's noone that you can'tdeny that, even today, even in
today's standard, the ultimateform of testing your luck is in
battle. It's just so and inorder for that to happen, you

(26:20):
have to step out of that alittle bit. I think what we view
as more certain levels ofmorality. I think people argue,
they make these philosophicalarguments about, like, ethics
and and like, what's right andwhat's wrong, but again, it's
all with today's standard rightand definition. So I just, I

(26:41):
think that question in itselfhas an identity struggle in it
where that question can't existin the past, it wouldn't even
come up. The question, I don'tknow if the question would even
come up. Yeah. I mean, I dothink there's clear lines of yes

(27:01):
and no and do's and don'ts inthe past. But I think let's look
at the heavy hitters likebattle, right? It's easy to say,
but also like there to say thatjealousy didn't exist in the
past, I think would be kind ofnaive too, right? Oh yeah, I

(27:22):
think there's, there's all kindsof stories about little groups
fighting with each other. Ohyeah. I mean, most of most of
us, our tribes, have stories ofseparating from another tribe,
yeah, usually because of somesort of disagreement, or,

yeah, fighting over an arrow, or, yeah, grab a
meat

or but I think the way is different. You know, it's
not it's so hard to separate. SoI think the greater question is,
how do you ask a question likethat that's not entangled, to
borrow a word from Will Smith.
It's not entangled withChristian morality. How do you
ask that question? Yeah, go,

well, then I would. I don't, I don't disagree
with what you're saying. Andcertainly is a question that you
have to interrogate in aspectrum of time. Okay, I agree

(28:30):
with that. So I don't know if Icould say 200 years ago. I can't
say, can't say 200 years ago. Imean, none of us really know, we
just kind of have a guess, youknow, no, based on on a lot of
things, but this is so, thenthat, then we

agree, though, that we've lost culture.

Well, yeah, we Yeah, so yeah, let's just so,
based

on that evolution of losing culture that 200 years
ago. There's more,

yeah, sure, yeah, yeah. Well, that goes against my
own. Well, wait, yeah, haven'tlost it. Just changed good.
Terry's got something to say.
Yeah, I see

that word you liked Aaron that you really
liked I used. We're nothomogenous anymore.

Yeah? Homogenous.
You look it up, just milk, yeah,just about milk, yeah, it's
about a lot of things,

but, but, but, I mean, it's just like, we're not,
you know, like, back then Icould see, I could assume,
that's all I can do, is assumethat everyone, like, was
striving. You know, I always saywe're we before the eye. So

(29:46):
there was instruments for, say,a man to to always be striving
to be better. And I think thatthat that competitiveness, but
it was a friendlycompetitiveness, in a sense. To
be better for the whole group.
And I think that's why there's alot of jealousy today, because
it's used in different, in a ina dysfunctional way, you know? I

(30:08):
mean, it's just like someone'sdoing good, you know, someone
again. Now we kind of go backto, oh, look at that person.
They're trying to be this way orthat way. You know. Who do they
think they are, blah, blah,blah, you know. And for me,
instead of, like, saying, Hey,boy, that person's doing good,
you you know, they're reallydoing good, I should go help

(30:29):
them. You know what? I mean, Ilike it. Hey, look, son, look at
this person. Look, they'retrying, you know. I mean, see, I
think that's where, like, whatyou were kind of getting back at
Aaron, of like, like, you know,they had good, good luck in
battle. And, you know, we want,I want my son to have good luck.
It's kind of like, I think Italked about that on the last

(30:51):
time was like, having, yeah,like, like, going to elders.
Like, a custom amongst us is togo to our elders, and make have
them make good wishes for us,because they've been given long
life. Well, if you go way backin the day, they they obviously
had to have good luck and do alot of things in battle to get
to that age and and so if I wantsay I'm my son, I might want

(31:17):
them to go to that person andgift them and ask them, you
know, to maybe, you know,because they say they're,
because they've been giftedages, they're, they're closer to
the Creator, to us, you knowwhat I mean. And so they're,
maybe they can intercede or pityfor that for us. You know,
there's that. What is it called?

(31:37):
That turmoil you use rep

reciprocity.

Over and over, okay, her hermogenosity.
But Terry, I think you wouldagree too, though, that the more

(32:08):
the more understanding you haveof your beliefs, and the more
practice you have of yourbeliefs, the less you actually
think about those kinds ofthings because it's just
working, just doing their thing,right, like you don't, yeah,
practitioner, that's, that's whyI say practitioners knowledge is

(32:29):
different, because it's, it's,it's not like, I don't want to
say it's not necessarily like aphilosopher's knowledge, but
It's, it's, used. So there'sthis, there's a different
confidence. It's not asanalytical as you would think,
like, I think sometimes peoplethink because you practice and
you're good at it and youunderstand it, that you know all

(32:51):
the nuances of it. And I don'tthink that's how it works.
Actually. I think when you useit, like, you know how to use
your muscles, but you don't knowhow they work, right? So I think
it's kind of the same thing. SoI don't think those kinds of
questions. It's just not a goodquestion. Sean Dean,

I'm in I think, I think it is, I think it is
because this is the reason why.
This is the reason why? Well,I'm curious about this because,
I mean, I hear what you say,whether I believe most of it, I
don't know. I thinkpractitioners have thought
things out. They do wrestle withdifficult situations, but maybe

(33:33):
not to a certain degree whereyou problematize things, or you
create the Yeah, maybe, yeah,yeah. I don't. I don't think

most practitioners are like, You Shandi, where
you're you're like, a veryinquisitive person, like, the
way you your brain works isyou're like, one of them guys
that like to take carburetorsapart and put them back together
to understand how they work.
There's some practitioners thatjust say, I like the carburetor.
I'm just gonna use it.

Yeah. I think there's the,

I think some of that's personality theory,
degree

of people like that, yeah. So, yeah. So this
is, this is what, what yourmessage implies to me. And maybe
Terry can weigh in on this. Itsounds like, so the idea of good
and bad, I'm gonna throw a mikelafromboise term out there, the
dichotomy, yeah, the dichotomyof good and bad, yeah, seems

(34:34):
like didn't exist in the past,that that kind of what you're
kind of what it sound like yousaid

to a degree, yeah, you're okay

to a degree, yeah.

But because, I think your question, you take
Christianity out of out of ourworld today, completely out,
yeah. Then what question do youhave? What's your question?

Question. Well, the question still remains. No,
it doesn't. Yeah, it does.

I don't think it does. Well, this reason out of

this one, this is the reason
why I think it does. This reasonwhy I think it does. I mean, the
things that cause people harmexist, right? Say, what the
things that cause people harmexist and yeah, things that

(35:35):
cause people to flourish alsoexist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The
language of your both of yourpeoples has a word that is an
analogous to both good and bad,yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(35:59):
So that had to exist, the goodand the bad has to exist, apart
from saying, Well, this was theinfluence of the church bringing
in the good and bad. But I thinkthis is what I this is what I
think now don't, no, don't jumpdown my throat till I tell you
the next part. It's, this is thenext thing. This is the next

(36:21):
thing, yeah, and it's what, it'swhat we always say, and it's
kind of what you hinted at,right? It's the purpose and in
the intent of that thing that welabel as good or bad. Because
good to one person is bad toanother person. Bad to another
person might be good to anotherperson. The line is blurred

(36:44):
depending on the direction ofthe thing that is getting
influenced. I don't think that'sa church thing. That's just the
that's just the thing thathappens. Man, no, yeah, because
you just described it. If I'mgoing to vanquish my enemy, good
for me, bad for my enemies,kids,

so you're okay, so then what you're saying is that

it's to the owner of that.
I think so. I think so, yeah, Ithink I think so, yeah, yeah.
So, so what I where I think,where I think the church stuff
comes in, is when it becomescodified what is good and
codified what is bad. But I

think just the question itself is, no, I don't
know. No, no, no, people aresitting there with this inner
fight of morality? I mean, Ican't speak for all Indians
throughout all of time,

or you just did.
There's no I get it.

I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Something
doesn't sit right with me.

Well, it's this, okay? Terry,

oh, go ahead.
Terry, well,

I just wanted to say that, that I just go back
to, like, some of our mostancient stories, if you go back
to ancient stories, there areCoyote, there are trickster,
they're, they're, they're, youknow, they're, they're those
trickster stories that I wouldassume that we're kind of a

(38:26):
Indigenous education model, oh,

God, to teach OPI.
No, no, no.

You know me think of there's practical ways, yeah,
maybe. And then there's,there's, there's, there's
philosophical ways of teachingdifferent things, educating or
to be human beings, right? And Ijust go back, it's, I think our
tricksters teach us to makechoice. They make, to make
choice in life. And we're,we're, we're reaffirmed to make

(39:04):
good, good choices, right? Also,know that we can make choices
that are bad, you could say. Andyou know, we could go back and
forth in English, you know whatI mean? Yeah. Well, also, we
could just say that we makechoices that don't benefit the
good, right? That way, you see,I mean, and so, like, I just go

(39:28):
back to that all the time,because

say that again, I'm sorry, go back say that
again, because that wasinteresting. Well,

I mean, it's for choices to make good choices,
but then also to make choicesthat aren't for good, you know
what I mean, instead of usingbad like that. And then there's
repercussions in our beliefsystems that when we disrupt,
maybe the balance of the unknowncause, most spiritual balance of

(39:55):
the natural world, on and on.
All this, all this balance. Thatthen, then we're disrupting
things and so and so, that's howI kind of look at it, from my
perspective, is, is really it'sa choice. I can make a choice,
and it can be a really goodchoice in my heart, and I could
still be human and make a choicethat maybe my heart I probably

(40:17):
shouldn't do, yeah, but I still,I mean, I still do it, you know.
I mean, peer pressure,something, you know, who knows?
I mean, yeah, oh yeah, that's, Ikind of look at it more so and
yeah, just that there's thatrepercussion of, of, of

(40:37):
disrupting that balance. Yeah,whatever that is that does harm
to all. Yes, I guess, in anutshell, in a nutshell, Eric,

that's tough. Man.

Tough one. That's it. He's thrown out a tough
question. Man, this is like,

one like one. I recently watched a video of a
black bear climbing up a treeand, um, eating the eagle. Yeah,
eating the eagle. So for theeagle, that was unfortunate.

(41:22):
Man, bad deal. But for the blackbear, tasty treat, man.
So the deal, the deal from whatI'm hearing from Terry and what
I'm hearing from Aaron, is that,and you brought up a good you

(41:43):
got you brought up a good wordto really help, help Aaron to
understand what we're trying tosay to him. See, he's not
listening this idea of choice,right? Choice? I'm in any choice
that we make. Sometime we don'tknow if, if the outcome is going

(42:06):
to be good or bad or destructiveor or helpful. We just go about
with the best of our ability tothink about what we know and do
the right thing. Sometime wedon't it's not right because
we're kind of dumb sometimewhere we we, what we think was
right is not right, and all thatthat's just, you know, human

(42:29):
choice and and the consequencethat that we, we, we have to
deal with. But my originalquestion, back to my original
question, where does it go?
What's the pathway like? Like, Iknow, I know for certain that
there's, there's helpers, right?

(42:52):
People have employed the help ofsomething, through their own
sacrifice and all that, to get ahelper to help them

play their own volition, under their own

volition, but when we're talking about this quote I
read where it's like this, likethere's a group of people like
thinking Ill of someone,collectively thinking Ill of
someone, to the point where thatperson could almost be killed
because of the that thatdangerous situation. Now again,

(43:26):
we can say, well, maybe that'spurposeful, because that person
is no good and they need to die.
We could go that route and say,Yeah, well, that makes perfect
sense. But what if it was amisunderstanding, and maybe the
person's not so bad at all, andthen, but that seems, that seems
rare. That's that's where Ithink I agree with Aaron, and

(43:49):
what he's saying is that, well,all these things, these, this,
this the cultural construct thatis at work and at play. There's
a lot of puzzles that fit in.
And there's a reason why thatinstance of thinking so ill to
someone to the point of death.
There's probably some realpurposeful reason. So it sort of

(44:09):
pulls it out of that category,the dichotomy of good and bad,
and it's just, it's just a thingthat happens. It's a balance of
some sort. Yeah, the vanquishingof your enemies. We, our
ancestors, did that becausethere was a purpose for it, and
the consequence, well, good forwhoever, because our kids didn't

(44:34):
die, but their kids is withoutparent. What's the good and
what's the bad? Huh?

Great existence, real, straight existence in that
scenario, yeah,

yeah, it's like the bear killing the eagle. This
is life, man. I. It's whathappens. The eagle is not so
sacred. It's immune from gettingmurdered by a black bear. The
black bear is not so sacred thatit's not immune from killing an
eagle that has little babies init because, man, he's hungry. I

(45:20):
don't know what my point is atthe end of this, but I was just
thinking about this, and it wason my mind the last couple days.
And the conversation often isbrought up in that way where
there's this, there's theseextreme good and extreme bad,
and it seems like not a lot istalked about the stuff in the

(45:43):
middle. Yeah, there's certainlyextreme bads and extreme goods
that happen. But that stuff inthe middle, it's probably more
common, it seems like, and it'smore it's more routine, rather
than, I don't know, like they'reculturally or orchestrated,

(46:06):
things that happen that can beclassified good or bad as a
whole, but can operate on apersonal level as Having a good
or bad consequence. The End,dang I dang So Aaron, yeah, I, I

(46:29):
know you wanted to talk aboutthe language revitalization the
often talked about, yeah, onceyou were talking, you're talking
to Terry about that because youhad a interest, and then we
didn't have enough time tofinish that conversation.

Is that what I said at the end of that? Yeah, he did
well, that was a week ago, PARDand I saw seven years ago. Yeah,
four

score and seven years ago. So

as a as a language scholar of the on the on Nene,
saying, right, how

do you say

it? Oh, what's this word that that I see? It's
a, t, s, I N, E,

that's a, that's actually a black foot speaking
word for whatever reason. That'skind of crazy, scholarly. That's
what we're known by. And I don'tknow of anyone in my whole tribe
that's ever said, Oh, I'm atsinner what person, honest to

(47:46):
God, yeah, anyone ever say, Oh,I'm at Sina? That's a I think it
means gut people, I think, intheir life, if I remember, right
and but for whatever reason,that's what we're known like you
can Google at sinner, and it'sjust like, a plethora of things,
hey,

plethora Yeah, like,

and then I use things, you know, just very,
very simply, a plethora ofthings. That was a power line
right there, you know,vocabulary per redundant.

That's a bit redundant this week, this week
in Pro was the it

was a plethora, too, you know, a plethora press,
plethora of stuff, of stuff.

Okay? People

say, You ever hear people say so? Like to me, stuff
is plural, right?

Is it not? It's plural. It's color form.

People say, Man, I gotta run to town and get a
bunch of stuff to me. Thatsounds funny. I don't know why.
Just to be I'm like, well,bunch, a bunch, bunches. You're
already, you're already sayingstuff. I already know it's more
than one. I gotta go get somestuff. Yeah? When you say a

(49:27):
bunch of stuff, yeah, you mightas well add a s to stuff and
just get it over with. It's justa lot of plural. That's a lot of
plural, right stuff, isn't it?
Quantity. Those are two. Thoseare two markers of quantity, a
bunch and stuff, yeah, that'stoo much. That's too much. A
bunch of stuff, a bunch ofstuffs, yeah, a bunch of the

(49:50):
stuffs. It's just too much.
Anyway, we Okay. The Little BigHorn College hosted the, I guess
this is like 40 years of thelanguage conference. Okay? So I

(50:11):
thought, oh, that's kind ofcool. Um, I'll have my guys
attended, my my crew, you know?
Yeah. So we went. They, theywent all to the whole two days,
I just did a couple of talks.
And in my short time, in myshort time seeing it, I'm going

(50:35):
to say this, man, okay, it washorrible. I it was linguist
talking about suing languages,right? So some giving
presentations on differentlinguistic articles. Perhaps you
could say ooh, non or voweldeletion. Perhaps I learned that

(51:04):
term from from my nephew and I'macting cool. What's the word?
Vowel deletion.

Vowel Sounds like you're mispronouncing pro word.

No See, we learned this. We learned it in action.
They they mentioned it, theydidn't give us any hard hitting
evidence when linguistics when Iwas in my undergrad. But an
example involved deletion is isthat the hiratsa language and
the Crow language are the samelanguages, but hiratsa does not
have vowel deletion. So the themost common example is the term

(51:39):
Sacagawea right so, language,when you say Bird Woman, you say
siga Gaia, right, yeah. In theCrow language, you would say the
Gaga beer, except in in the casewhere vow deletion happens. So
at the end of de Gaga, the Gagais an A you would delete that

(52:05):
from the word so it'd be taga,where that doesn't exist in
hiratsa. So bird, woman, crow,you would say taga, in in
hiradza, you would say saga, we

are they use more of a WEA form for a woman too,
than on the end where you guys,yeah, right,

yeah. Well, crows can use a W too. So the B, M and
W are interchangeable, okay,those sounds and that D, L and
the n are interchangeable. Theshot is dance, you could say
Nisha, the sort this, so it'sall like dance. It's the same

(52:55):
thing. So anyway, besides that,I was just teasing about that,
but it this, this is, this islinguistics. We talk a lot about
tribal research, and like tribalpeople taking charge of research

(53:16):
and implementing, like nativeapproaches to research. One
place that is not happening isin linguistics. It's, man, it's,
it's like the you got this groupof a very unique group of
people, yeah, that have a veryniche skill in the study of

(53:36):
language, almost mathematical.
It's like a mathematic approachto language, Yeah, completely
disconnected from the languagesthey're studying. It's like, it
was intense. I was like, HolySmoke, if there's, if there's a
need for Sean Dean, it's likeholy smoke. So my nephew gave a

(53:59):
talk. He was the plenaryspeaker, on on, on the second
day, and it was by far the mostinteresting talk, yeah, and this
is what, where I'm going to getwith Terry. Okay, so Terry, in
your experience in studyinglanguage, the same arguments are

(54:21):
always made for language loss,right? Boarding schools, the
church reservation lifestyle,they kind of make these same
it's always the same,colonization talks, right? Yeah,
would you agree or disagree? Idisagree?

Well, I mean, let me, let me clarify that,
because, boy,

you might be disagreeing too soon because of
what I'm getting at next.

Okay, whoa, whoa, go ahead. Go ahead.

No, you go ahead.

No, because you're setting me up. So you go
it's.

That I noticed, I feel like that's superficial,
right? That's a superficial lookat native language and why
native languages are suffering.
What they suffer? Yeah, ofcourse, boarding schools had a
number, but it's all thesefactors. My nephew made this
really strong argument foreconomics having the strongest

(55:21):
impact of of language loss,because he makes, he gives these
sociological theories on why,the why economics has so much
power in culture. And it was thefirst time I ever but, but he

(55:42):
gave all this evidence of, like,tribal like, crow stuff and all
this stuff. And I thought thisis, like, what people need to
talk about. Like, I always hearseeing documentaries. We lost
our language, you know? And it'salways the same kind of sad
voice, you know what I mean, andit's always there. They're like,
at boarding school, theywouldn't let me speak my

(56:03):
language. But, you know, there'salso a lot of people. Maybe you
can even make the argument thatjust as many people may have
actually survived boardingschool speaking their language
too. Like it? I mean, it wouldtake a lot, right? Don't you
think, Terry, you would take alot to completely wipe the
language out of your the wayyou, the way you function,

yeah? As, yeah.
Well, I mean, I think there's,there's a combination of
different things again. I mean,we can, we can talk. I mean, to
erase something from a person'smind. You mean, it's like, I'll
use an example. I had arelative, and I was in the gas
station and and, and they said,Where are you going? And I just

(56:55):
told him, an Indian I said, I'mgoing to go golfing. And pretty
abstract, when you think aboutit the way. I just, I set up up
the wall, you know, Kawah on thenot said, I said, I'm going to
go, I'm going to go hit a littlewhite ball. You know what? I'm
going to hit this white ball.

(57:15):
And he says, Oh, you're going togo golfing. And in English, he
said, right. He, you know, hewent through the boarding
school, he went througheverything, but yet he
understood everything I said,but yet he didn't speak to me
and ended, you know what I mean?
And yet, but he understoodeverything I said. So to your
point, I think it's hard toerase someone's memory. Now, you

(57:38):
could say probably trauma. Yes,we could say a little bit of
trauma, but I would make more.
I'm a big person. I really andthey argue this and that or what
should be different ways, but Iam a big believer in Maslow's
hierarchy and needs. And why Isay that is because when I was

(58:02):
teaching in the elementaryschools, when I first got into
teaching, and I knew how I feltright, how I felt by
understanding more and more ofmy language as I and I still
feel the same way today, becausethere's, you know, language is
infinite, and I felt, Oh, thiswill help a person with their
self esteem, and but if you lookat the bottom rung of that, it's

(58:26):
security. And so if you havesomeone that doesn't speak their
language and and they're inpoverty, they're worried about
what I'm going to eat and thatthe lights aren't going to get
turned off, and worried aboutwhat, you know, what, what I'm I
have to do. I use an example ofwhen, one year they they had to

(58:49):
do some work at the school, oneof the schools I was teaching
at, they brought the elementaryover to the high school in
junior high and to watch some ofthose kids eat breakfast and
lunch. I mean, that that was twosquares they got. That was that
was two, two meals that theygot, that they was solid meals.
And you could see it just by theway they ate, you know. And so

(59:13):
it's like that security, thateconomic security, is very, very
important. And and I think ourancestors, when there was
millions of buffalo on theearth, there was economic
security, but this economic wordhas to do with people equated

(59:35):
straight to money today, youknow what I mean. And somehow,
somehow our holistic tribebefore the eye, if a person is,
is is, is working hard, beingindustrious, and sometimes
they're looked down upon. Andthat's kind of to me, upside

(59:58):
down, but yet I. That, that thatcreates, that, that top tier in,
in, in Maslow's of selfactualization. Now you could say
we were born with that, you knowwhat I mean, but, but I mean,
I'm just saying from, fromMaslow's perspective, that's
when you when you don't have toworry about security, when you

(01:00:18):
don't have to worry about asense of belonging when you
don't have to worry about selfesteem. And I can dream, that's
what it is. I can dream, and Ifeel comfortable dreaming, and I
feel comfortable taking a riskand failing and then trying
again, you see, and those thingslike that. Not every when you're

(01:00:40):
stuck in the bottom realm andyou're just trying to live. I
don't have time to study mylanguage if I want to learn it.
You know what I mean? I don't. Idon't have time to read a
historical document or listen toold recordings and try to do a
you just it. I I'm I'm hungry.
You know, my baby's got, youknow, shitty drawers, and I'm

(01:01:01):
down to five diapers. And, youknow, I mean, I'm just talking
real, you know, and, yeah, andso I agree, honestly, Aaron, I
whatever i i love to heard histalk. And I'd have been right.
It probably was the best talkthere, you know, because, I
mean, you could talk about thesin cope and the vile
conjugation of the conjunctorder, and whether it was a

(01:01:23):
dependent participle or not, youknow. But hey, man, you know, we
need to, we need to, you know,make our people secure so that
they they can flourish. Yeah,I'm 100% in your camp, Aaron,
and that, yeah,

Aaron Brien (01:01:40):
that's, that's basically, and so his, his
actual talk was about languagedeclined from 1980 cuz he made a
pretty good argument that, like,wait, wait a second, the crows
survived the boarding school erawith, like, over almost 80%
fluency or Whatever, till the80s, and then then it tanks,

(01:02:02):
right? So it's like, well, well,what was it? Because if the
boarding schools couldn't fullydo it, the church couldn't fully
do it, what was all thesefactors The Dawes Act couldn't
fully do it, or what happened?
So he makes this really strongargument for the i 90 corridor,
creating economic thoroughfareand and it really made the

(01:02:24):
reservation small right betweenSheridan Wyoming and Billings
Montana. It kind of like turnedthis into, like this commerce
interstate, as opposed to justjust for traffic. It was it made
for other things, right? And Idon't totally know if that was
his intent. So well, I textShaun Dean, and I was like, Man,

(01:02:46):
this is pretty cool. Like, Inever it was, it was good. And
so he's, like, he just got intograduate school, so he was,
he's, I told him, like, you'refine, dude. Like, what you do,
what you presented on already. Idon't see graduate students
doing stuff like that thinkingthe way he was thinking. So I
thought, how come people don'tthink like that? That's, that's

(01:03:13):
just, it was just it like, blowsmy mind. Like, if you can get to
a native scholar before theylearn too much, almost in
school. It's almost like thatwork can happen, but one, it's
hard to catch them.

Terry Brockie (01:03:29):
I don't know.
Well, here's, here's kind of aone that I thought about too.
Yeah, you use that time for an80, right? Right? About the Crow
language, okay? And one day Iwent, I had to go into the
housing department at our tribe,and they have a whole bunch of
old pictures of differentfamilies that they went around
to, and they took pictures ofthem, and it'd be these two, man

(01:03:52):
and a wife, and they're in frontof a log cabin and, and, and
their home and and they mighthave had coveralls on, and, you
know, it was just like thattransition, you know, in the 30s
and 40s. And then you thinkabout, like, governmental
policy. And you think about,say, like, like housing came to

(01:04:13):
Indian country in in 1960sroughly as I understand it,
because I asked about and theysaid, Well, this is how it was.
When did we start getting thesehouses? You know, 60s, early
70s, right? And so you thinkabout the 60s. Well, then
there's also a lot of socialprograms that came in, like

(01:04:33):
maybe under Lyndon Johnson, youknow what I mean, and these
different in federal policy. Andthen, so then you had, you
created into some sense, andpeople probably won't like me
saying this, but you created alevel of entitlement as well.
You see, they mean where nowthere were, there's certain
things that that, that we wereable to, to get and you could,

(01:04:56):
and I'm not arguing. It's wrongor right. I'm not saying
anything, you know, sometimespeople get, get a little bit
offended by that, but I'm justsaying for 80 or 90 years, then
they the the agreements we madewith the government, there was
nothing really brought forward.
Oh, we'll give you a, you know,bag of flour and some rice and

(01:05:19):
some sugar, you know, and thisand that, maybe, but, but also,
you think of those 20 yearsthere, that's an adult age
person about the time when youthink about having kids and
stuff, and all of a sudden,there's certain things I don't,
I don't really have to drivefor. You know what I mean, where
you look back there and thoselog cabin days, those guys had

(01:05:40):
to grow their garden, you knowwhat I mean, they're going to
have vegetables for the winter.
They had to, can, you know what?
I mean, yeah, they had tosubsistently LIVE. And all of a
sudden, now we have commoditieswhere we have some food, you
know, we have, we have a littlebit of GA maybe, to help us,
general assistance, you know, wegot a house, you know. And so

(01:06:00):
you think about our people inIndian ways. If we have a i this
old document of this old man.
His name was Bucha head, and hetalked about like how they were
able, if, if, if they were ableto get hides for lodges. There
was waters in the creek. Therewas water in the creek, and
there was berries. It was a goodberry year, you know, and

(01:06:21):
they're able to get turnips andstuff. Life was good, you know,
we didn't perish. You know, thatwas good. But what, what we
forget about is how industriousour people had to be in order to
build a hide, you know, to makea hide, and then make eight or
nine of them, and then sew themtogether and and with the bone
all and sinew, and make sinew,and to make a teepee and all

(01:06:41):
these things. Our people werevery industrious. And then when
it went to log cabins, they hadto cut log cabins, and they had
to, you know, they had to doeverything and grow their
garden. And then all of asudden, now there was this kind
of a little bit of because nowwe were a little bit
comfortable, and it might be theinterstate going through, and
now there's a, there's acomplacency or content where I'm

(01:07:02):
okay. I got food, I got I gotshelter, I got that hide over my
head. I got some I got somefood, you know, I got a little
bit of spending money, but it'smeager. It's meager compared to,
maybe I would assume, to mygrandparents when they grew up.
You know what I mean. So I Ithink maybe then you look at
that too, you know what I mean.

(01:07:25):
And you might say, maybe therewas a drop off there too. I
mean, just a thought. I'm justthinking about that, because
I've always thought about thatwith with my own people, about,
like, the instruments of thereservation and, and, and it's
just a segment. I'm not sayingthis. There's a lot of hard work
and industrious people on ourreservations, and they're trying

(01:07:47):
hard and educated and but at thesame time, there's, there's,
there's still that, thatsegment, that that kind of,
it's, it's good. I got just thisis enough. I don't need any
more. And they're content, youknow, and, and, so it but yet,
that's still in the means of,like, we go back to economics,
that's, you know, that's prettymeager. And I'm, I'm having to

(01:08:08):
hustle instead of, you know,instead of, like, working, you
know what I'm saying. I don'tknow if that makes sense.

Makes total sense.

Shandin Pete (01:08:19):
Yeah, I'm down.

It's like, yeah, like, how do we how do we
empower our people to take backour, our our our gifted rights
to our people. I guess I don'tknow how to put it into English.
You know what I mean? TheCreator gave us stuff, belief

(01:08:46):
system and how to be as whatevertribe we are. And all I'm saying
is those are good systems thatlasted for 1000s of years, and
then you have a system placed ontop of us now that radically
changed it, but yet it hasn'tradically changed us, too,
though. I mean, it's, it's justlike all it takes, you know,
that's the optimism that I haveAaron and shandine, is it? I

(01:09:08):
kind of go back to old DarrylKIPP. He said, All it takes is
one generation to stop speaking.
You lose the language, but allit takes is one generation to
start speaking, and it's living.
Yeah, yeah. That's a powerfullittle phrase that I think is
really, really important, youknow, and how do we convey but
it goes back to, I believe, likewhat you said, Aaron, you've got

(01:09:31):
to be economically secure inthis world today, and we don't
have buffalo like we did then.
Unfortunately, it's the almightydollar. You know what? I mean,
right, wrong and different andand so that's just how I look at
it. And I'm not saying, Oh, yougotta be rich or anything like
that, but enough to create asecurity level where you

can dream, yeah, there's some, there's some
pretty rich tribes out there nowbecause of their. Or economic
prosperity in certain ways, butthey've got probably zero
speakers. And I don't know what,I don't know how much that money
equates to revitalization, but Ithink that's, I think it's an
important thing that Aaron wassaying that your your nephew is

(01:10:18):
talking about, and we talkedabout this before, not not not
directly like that, but wetalked about, what are we
talking we're talking aboutRevit, reviving certain
traditions and customs, and howdifficult that is if it's not
placed within, within a systemthat it's has purpose, you know,

(01:10:42):
like, um, like, how many peoplecelebrate New Year's on, uh, you
know, end of December? Lot ofIndians do, you know? But that's
not necessarily the right thing.
It's just, that's just the madeup calendar, you know, that goes
off of this gridded dates that,you know, it has, has a history
in a different customer culture,but that's what our tribes go

(01:11:05):
off of. That's that's how theeconomy and the political
structure of our tribes nowoperates off of. But remember,
we talked about this, Aaron, wetalked about, what if they
decided to release per capita ison the first thunder? Then how
many people would be payingattention to that first thunder,

(01:11:26):
you know, waiting for that percap check to come up?
Did we really talk about that?
We did. Yeah, we talked aboutthat. And so that remind me when
you're talking about this, thisthing that your your nephew
talked about, and it makesperfect sense, right? If, if the
if the language doesn't havepurpose in the thing that helps

(01:11:46):
you to survive, then yeah,you're gonna go, you're gonna go
to the language that helps youto live in the economy in which
you're you're sort of stuck in.
You've seen that with like thatChinook jargon. You know that
Chinook jargon sort of blew upin the Pacific Northwest because
it was used for trading. Then assoon as that trading went away,

(01:12:11):
Chinook jargon is gone. Nobodyused it no more. And I, while
you were talking, I was I wasthinking about, man, yeah, that
makes sense, it seems like. AndI don't know if this is true,
this is probably not totallytrue, because there's probably
many other factors thatcontribute to why language
decline. But I think some tribesthat were pretty economically

(01:12:32):
isolated, you know, I thinkthey're when I think about it, I
think, oh, yeah, those I can seelike this, language is still
somewhat strong from from what Imy perspective, right? But if
you look at like the like flyhead man, we were, we were
bombarded right in the middle. Imean, all of us were right in

(01:12:52):
the middle of this sort ofpolitical, political changes.
But we were, we were fairlyeconomically. Vulnerable in a in
a particular way. We had the damthere. We had all these
resources with railroad comethrough. But that happened
everywhere. So I don't know ifthat's necessarily true, but

(01:13:13):
other factors

also your your guys is was 3040, years before you
guys have been doing this since1834 or whatever, right, right,
right. Or like the crows really,never. It never really took hold
with us until the 1870s 1880syou know, yeah. And then, even
then, it was pretty superficial,you know, yeah. And I think, I

(01:13:36):
think for us, World War Two waskind of the great unifier. It
made, it made that suddenly,yeah, we took a hit with
colonization, for sure, thenyeah, in terms of buying into

it, right, right, right, you

know, because it was obviously it's been around
for as long as it has beenaround. But you there's always
these turning points where,like, you see, tribes buy into
it, yeah, yeah, even

earlier than that for our people, I believe, you
know, just from reading oldhistorical documents and
different things, you know, likethe imprint of the Catholic
Church on our reservation, Imean, and just really, like
people kind of putting it away,putting their Indian ways away,
and then you read kind of theseold buffalo day Indian

(01:14:24):
interviews, you know. And like,there's this one old man. His
name was a Cinnabon boy, and inthe underlying tone of his story
was, I just want to eatmeatless, to be in the Buffalo
days. And he yeah about how helooked at his people and saw how
far away they were, and this waslike in the 1930s how far away

(01:14:44):
they were from the old days. Andhe was really, he just thought
it wasn't a good place for ourpeople. And, you know, I just
want my meat. I want to be ableto go hunt buffalo. I want to go
I don't, I don't like thissociety. Our people are evolving
into, you know. It was a reallypowerful kind of write up. And
he talked about just kind of howhuman behavior had changed, you

(01:15:07):
know, that was what kind of theunderlying tone so, ya know,
it's been and so, you know. AndI mean, I really think just,
just this is just my thought is,I really think that because of
the westernized system, andwe're in now, everyone has to go
to school, and we go, you know,from, you know, you know, mid

(01:15:29):
August till end of June, orbeginning of June, or whatever.
And then we're in a westernizedschool system. But the
underlying thing that I seearound in Indian country now is
that, you know, I will give ourstate a little bit of credit is
I really believe that IndianEducation for All has really
helped some tribes and and, andI see, you know, you have people

(01:15:49):
that, like myself, I've beenable to teach our songs, our
history, our language, in ourschool system, where, when I
went to school, there wasnothing like that, nothing Like
you said, kind of IndianStudies, you know? That was it,
you know. And now, just like theschool I went to in Harlem, my
where I graduated from, when Igraduated, there was nothing in

(01:16:10):
that school, absolutely zerothings in that school that I can
recall that reflected me as anative person, yeah, in this
person. Now I can walk in thereand there's that, well, they
remodeling now, but he used towalk right in there, and there
was all the treaties on thewall, there's there's things all
over there reflects we asIndian, as an Indian person, and

(01:16:32):
but, but being able to teach allthat now, you've had people that
have they're more comfortablewith themselves because they
know who they are a little bitmore. You know where, where I
wasn't as comfortable. I feellike sometimes when I think back
and I look at like these youngguys when I was a contemporary
with them in school, andthey're, they're eons ahead of
me, culturally, of and morecomfortable. And so I think

(01:16:55):
it's, it's it's it's it'shelping as I'm not saying it's
the salt, because we're still ina westernized box, and there's
teachers up front. We're inrows, just like we're in a
mission school or something,exactly the same format, the
same I mean, we're not sittingon the ground in a circle. They

(01:17:15):
don't know what I mean where Ican everyone's equal. You know
what I mean in that concept. Andwe got away, we got a long ways
to go, but it's, it's, it'sgetting better. But that's the
stuff, see, when we, when wehave that philosophy that, no, I
don't want to sit in in rows. Iwant to sit in a circle and I
want to sit on the ground, thenit's good, you know,

I want a talking stick too. My voice. Yeah, yeah,
it's, it's an interesting thing,man, to explore. And I think
you're right, Aaron, it's goingto take like, like, some real
curious and creative minds tocome up with the different way

(01:17:57):
to do things, but

native people minds that, yeah, that's what I mean.
Go outside of who we are tofigure out a problem, yeah?
Solve it ourselves. You know,nobody's

going to solve it for us. I agree 100% Yeah, solve
it for us. No one. We got tosolve it ourselves. Yeah? And
you know that can be a scarythought, but it can be an
empowering thought too, as well.
You know,

this conversation is giving me a dubitive mood.
What? What the linguistic term?
Man, it's throwing it out there,trying to play the game. I don't
know what that is. Duplicativemood, you don't know what that
is. Me neither. I had to look itup. It's a, it's a, it's an
epistemic mood which signals thespeaker's reservation about the

(01:18:46):
accuracy of his or herstatement. Stupid, evidently,
evidently reticent. You know,

it's funny, because we use that in our
language all the time, becauseif we weren't there, we would
use that form of speech, right?
Because I wasn't physicallythere to hear whatever our
traditional story filled withthose
stupid moods, because, you know,we weren't there,
we weren't there. So who am Ijust say that that's exactly

(01:19:21):
true.

Yeah, I know people have come up with all a
range of things on how to revivelanguage, you know, radio
station, dictionary, books, youknow, articles in the paper.
Nothing seems to be catching on.
But what I think when you tie itinto like, it becomes a need.
You see this in in and we talkedabout this before, like in in

(01:19:44):
tradition. When people see thatyou need to speak the language
in in a like, say, a custom or aceremonial sense, people will
learn to say, just enough you.
To be to do that thing, becauseit's purposeful and it's
necessary, but I don't have noreason to go to the store and

(01:20:09):
ask where the where the ketchupis in Salish. And then nobody
cares. Nobody would know. Nobodycares. You know, it's like, who
cares? Just ask to say it inEnglish. Man,

I'm almost like, getting tired too, of hearing
like, and I don't want to sayolder people, because not but
that somehow a youth app isgoing to fix the language.
They're always like, they'relike, let's just, we got to have
a game they can play. Yeah,these kids play Call of Duty.
They're not

some whack name, find Mother Tree. Find mother
tree and avoid the tiger, themountain lion.

There's always the same argument, like, because I
heard it. I heard it at thisthing. We're like, we need to
have a game, a language game,the kids, the youth, can play,
and then they'll learn ourlanguage. And I'm like,

I mean, that's cool, but,

I mean, I don't want to be discouraging, but I
know it's just, I think if we'renot realistic about any of this,
yeah, it's not going to happen.
Yeah,

yeah. Yeah.

I just, it's really, I mean, and it's
difficult, because everywhereyou're at English is there,

yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. So

like, like, like, like, I was, I went to this
tribal language language summitin Bozeman on one Monday and
Tuesday, and then we presentuse, I'm not fluent in sign
language, plain sign language,but I used it as a tool to to
help people understand kind ofthe basic meanings of of nouns

(01:21:55):
and verbs. You know, using signlanguage, right? And then, and
then, showing how you can, youcan use it to, like, conjugate
verbs, fancy word here again,but, you know, but the thing is,
is, like, what I was pointingout was to them, was that was
the most common, commonly spokenLanguage prior to westerners

(01:22:18):
coming, yeah, and now Englishreplaced that where we, you
know, long ago, we would alltalk signed to one. We'd be
sitting on here, nobody. Wewouldn't hear anything. We'd be
doing, you know, you'd have tobe a video thing in this day,
because we'd be fine, you know,and we would all understand, and
we'd be laughing and joking andeverything in the language. But,

(01:22:40):
yeah, you know that's, that'sjust, it's, it's hard, it is
hard, but it can be done, butit's hard, and it has to be
around our dinner table. Yeah, Iput, I put, I put my hope and my
wishes on our mothers, on thewomen folk, honestly, yeah, that

(01:23:00):
child is born from that Womb ofthat woman. And when the women
say we're we're going to makeour language important, and we
start talking to our our babyright from the womb, and we can
do it as fathers, too, but tothe womb right for right out of
the womb, and that child, that'sall they're hearing, they're

(01:23:21):
going to know their language.
And it was funny, because I canremember when I first started
with the language, there wasthis, this, this lady from crow.
I went to a mobby meeting orsomething. It was called, like
the name of it, and they hadbeen studying the language.
Aaron about that, and they weresaying how the they were, they
had statistics on it. They'retalking about the Crow language

(01:23:41):
and the kids that were coming toschool, primarily that were
fluent, that didn't knowEnglish, were coming from single
mother homes, really on yourreservation. Aaron, that's what
their data showed. They had abig chart. I was like, Wow, man,
you know. And then, when I thinkabout it, in our way of being,
you know, our women folk arevery, very important, you know,

(01:24:04):
they're bossy, yeah, they'rebossy.
When our women folk decide it'llbe that way, it'll be that way.
Oh yeah,

I believe it. I believe it. Well, man, you know,
we've talked about a lot ofthings here. We talked about the
dichotomy of good and bad. Aarongot Aaron got on a soapbox about
it, and that's that's goodthough. Hey, man, he set

(01:24:47):
setting, setting it straight.
Terry threw in some some goodevidence there about it, and he
helped resolve it by bringing upthe word of choice that pretty
important. Mean that good andbad is, even though it's like an
in, it can be an individualconstruct when we're
homogenized, and it becomes morepowerful, because then we all

(01:25:09):
understand good and bad, andthen the blur. It gets real,
real blurry, but pretty, prettywell defined on what, how that's
operationalized, and it's notlooked at in such a strange way,
like, like a codified book ofwhat you ought to do and what
you ought not to do. It's justwhat you have to do in the
moment. Yeah, and then this, Ithink this is pretty cool,

(01:25:33):
because that that comes down to,like that, like language loss,
like we have a choice. We have achoice. It's just like, I got an
argument with them, with a veganwith they were showing they had,
you know, they put them videosup on a screen, and they're
standing somewhere, and it'slike these little baby chickens
get grinded up and, you know,animals getting abused in these

(01:25:56):
big processing places, you know.
And I was watching. I was like,Man, that's horrible look at all
that my kids were there werewatching. I said, Man, that's
not cool. And so the guy comesup and said, do you, what do you
think about what you're seeing?
And I said, Oh, that's, that'sterrible man. And I said, Well,
do you support that? And I said,No, I don't. I don't support
that at all. I says, Well, doyou eat meat? And I said, Well,

(01:26:18):
yeah, I do. I said, well, thenyou support it. And I was like,
Whoa, oh, yeah. I mean, but Ikind of stuck in this economy. I
said, well, that's just anexcuse, you know, people have
and, you know, you can dosomething to not support it.
And, and I said, Well, I said,you know, there's sort of a
line, have a belief about, youknow, animals in our own

(01:26:39):
particular way. And he straightup said, I don't care what you
believe. It's like, okay, I'mout. I headed out as I yeah,
this guy's not listening to me.
Yeah, he's not listening to meat all.

I don't care what you believe, yeah,

but, but that, that, that idea about, you know,
to change attitudes, you have tohave a has to be a place for the
attitude to be changed. Youcan't just expect someone to go
night and day. We can't expectpeople to go night and day on.
Language has to be purposeful. Imean, there's people who've done
it. They make it their purposeto do it, but for the average

(01:27:21):
person who has the has the wanthas to be set up in a particular
way, so all tribes out theredistribute your per caps on the
first thunder, that'll be thestart. And stop giving people
the day off on New Year's. Givethem the day off on

shaunding. Too much. Don't mess with our days
off.

Yeah, we got Martin Luther King. We got
coming

Hey, yeah.
Chill out, man. Chilling are yougetting at least Columbus Day
off, and then all these damnwater protectors start bitching
around. Now, no, I'm justkidding. All right, let's be
done.

Okay. All right.
Terry, last words. Anything tosay?

Oh, just thank you. I just been very
interesting. And you guys, it'sgood. You guys are doing things
like this, and just talkingabout life as Indian people.
And, you know, look out all overthe place, and there's very
little things like these. Thereyou go with things and

stuff, stuff, not enough stuff, like a bunch of
stuff

we get to and by God, you guys fill up all the
stuff. Okay, good

evening. You.

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#64 - Between Good and Bad: Where Black Bears Eat Eagles - Guest: Terry Brockie

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#64 - Between Good and Bad: Where Black Bears Eat Eagles - Guest: Terry Brockie