Demystifying RED-S in Male Athletes with Evan Lynch

Get ready to stretch your horizons! We've got an enlightening conversation with Evan Lynch, a noteworthy nutritionist and educator, who gives us a compelling look at the lesser-known topic of relative energy deficiency in sport (RED-S) in men. Drawing from his unique journey from being an Irish race walker to a respected voice in nutritional science, Evan provides a refreshing perspective on this crucial topic. This episode is layered with practical insights and academic expertise, all aimed at providing a comprehensive understanding of the psychological aspects that underlie optimal nutrition.

Our journey begins with a fascinating exploration of the world of race walking, an Olympic sport that pushes the boundaries of physiology and requires the technical prowess of a hurdler. Evan gives us an unparalleled insider look at the significance of body composition for success in race walking and the biomechanics of the sport, making this a must-listen for any sports enthusiast. Our conversation then takes a turn into the world of RED-S, a form of malnutrition that's not often talked about, but can have serious implications on the hormonal balance, performance, and long-term health of athletes. Evan generously shares his personal experience with RED-S and offers strategies for athletes to increase their caloric intake and safeguard against this condition.

As we round off our discussion, we explore the exciting intersection of technology and sports nutrition, including the use of Continuous Glucose Monitors (CGM) and AI in enhancing athletic performance. While we acknowledge the potential benefits of these technologies, we also delve into the potential pitfalls and anxiety that can arise from over-dependence on them. From understanding the context of glucose levels, to exploring the utility of apps like Nutritics, this episode is a comprehensive study on the evolving world of sports nutrition. Listen on as we challenge common misconceptions and provide practical advice to optimize athletic performance. You won't want to miss this deep dive into the world of sports nutrition.

evanlynchfitnut.com

LinkedIn: @evan-lynch-77b88b227
Instagram: @elynchfitnut

This episode was sponsored by The Trusted Team and 4th Discipline

Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Charlie Venigan and I'm Claire Fudge and this is
the Tribe Athlon podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
I was very, very lean , which I thought was grace,
because I looked grace and again, that's kind of a bias.
They have to help a lot ofathletes with.
You know they can placeaesthetic image with health and
performance or even virility.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
That was Evan Lynch, and this episode is Reds in Men.
Welcome to another enlighteningconversation on the Tribe
Athlon podcast, this time withEvan Lynch, a dedicated
nutritionist and educator, as wedive, deep dive into the realm

(01:09):
of relative energy deficiency insport, otherwise known as Reds
in men.
In particular, we hear a lotabout it in women, but not so
much about it in men.
So Evan's journey in the fieldof nutrition is testament to his
commitment to helpingindividuals achieve their best
selves through the power ofproper diet and nutrition.
With a profound passion forassisting others in navigating

(01:31):
the complexities of personalizednutrition, evan has established
himself as a guiding light forthose seeking to improve their
relationship with food, optimizeathletic performance or embark
on a journey of weight loss.
Drawing upon his impressiveacademic background, evan's
expertise is further enriched bypractical experience, having

(01:52):
engaged in international trackand field himself.
This unique blend of academicknowledge and personal insight
equips Evan with a deepunderstanding of the
psychological nuances thatunderlie optimal nutrition.
So in this episode, claire andI got to got a chance to unravel
the intriguing topic of Reds inmen, a syndrome that Evan has

(02:16):
personally encountered as anathlete and now seeing becoming
more prevalent and more kind ofmore widely understood in both
athletes and active individuals.
So, from his background intrack and field to his extensive
experience in the nutritionalscience world, evan can shed
light on the intricacies of Reds, exploring its impact on

(02:38):
performance, hormonal balanceand our overall long term health
.
So I know you're going toreally enjoy this interview with
Evan Lynch.
How would you like to grow yourbusiness whilst working less and
enjoying your work life more?
Well, that's how we help peopleat the trusted team.

(02:59):
We do that through workshops,which happen in person and
online.
We do that through regularonline learning that you can
just do from your desk atlunchtime, and we do it through
in person events that make fun,tax deductible things like golf
days, dinners, wine tasting allof that fun stuff to help you
build stronger relationships andenjoy work more.

(03:20):
So if you want to know how wecan help you grow your business
and improve your work lifebalance, go to the trusted dot
team to find out when our nextfree taster event or free
webinar is, so that you can findout how we can help you grow
your business and get your worklife balance back.

(03:41):
That's the trusted dot team.
Come join us at one of ourevents.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Are you struggling to manage energy levels at work or
during training, finding ithard to know how to fit in
eating for health, sport andlife?
Do you want to separate factfrom fiction?
At fourth discipline, we workwith leaders, professionals,
athletes and people with medicalconditions.
We take you on a six stepscience-led journey to manage

(04:08):
energy, optimize performance,recover well and improve health.
We offer enhancement clinicsfor businesses, supportive
online workshops, one to onecoaching and accountability.
If you'd like to have a freecall to find out how we can
support you, then log on tofourthdisciplinecom and book

(04:29):
your call today.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Right, evan, welcome to the tribe Athlon podcast.
Really looking forward to thisconversation, particularly as I
feel like I can sit this one outalmost.
I'm going to sit back and watchthe conversation evolve For
those of just for the listenersbenefit.
I'm actually dialing in fromthe St Agnes hotel.
I've just had my lovely Cornishbreakfast, which I enjoyed very
much and, given theconversation that you guys are

(04:57):
about to have, I'm glad I've hadit before rather than after the
conversation, because I'm sureI will have enjoyed it more.
But I like kicking thesepodcasts off by asking a bit
about the story.
So can you kick things offbefore I sort of ask Claire to
kind of talk, talk.
You guys can talk nutritionamongst yourselves and I'll just

(05:19):
act like the idiot in the room,just a picture and if you get
too too detailed at any point.
But yeah, let's kick things offby understanding a little bit
about your background.
So how did you get into whatyou do now professionally?
But also you want to tell usthe story around your sporting
background as well.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
So, first of all, thanks for having me on.
I always love getting chancesto do podcasts or interviews,
things like that.
I think, more so than ever,it's very important that there
are more evidence basednutrition resources out there.
As for what I do like, I have areasonably large social media
profile.

(05:58):
I've seen all themisinformation with my
day-to-day work.
I hear this misinformationtrickle back to me all the time,
so I love getting a chance todo stuff like this.
How did I end up here?
Accidentally.
Actually, I wanted to be aphysiotherapist initially, so
I'll rewind a little bit.

(06:18):
I did professional track andfield.
I was a race walker.
For those who don't know whatthat is, that's extremely fast
walk and you can google it ifyou want.
I made it as far as june or 123, competing for Ireland, got to
a couple of world championshipsa few year being championships,
and I have I think I still haveone or two national records from

(06:39):
underage and junior level.
I don't know, I may or may notbe looking at making a comeback
to the senior track and fieldscene.
We'll see.
I have two little kids, so theymay not allow me to do that.
Just yes, but from from my timeas an athlete, you know you're
always trying to optimize whatyou're doing.
I was always naturally curious,so I gravitated towards

(07:02):
nutrition, towards the ancillarythings you can do outside of
your training to promoteperformance.
And when it came time to go tocollege, I actually didn't get
enough points to dophysiotherapy in the University
of Limerick, so I put down foodscience and health to back up,
did this, ended up really likingit and taught.
I wonder if there is such a jobas someone who tells athletes

(07:25):
how to eat, because I wouldreally like that and there
wasn't a whole lot ofopportunities at that time that
that I could see.
So I took the clinical road.
I went and studied dietetics inthe University of Malta which
is random or interesting andthen I went and did my master's

(07:46):
degree in the University ofUlster through the pandemic,
while I was working as a privatepractice dietitian.
To my knowledge, I'm Ireland'syoungest private practice
dietitian or private practiceowner, I suppose, and I've just
gone on hyper specialism,endurance athletes.
So the sports background, theclinical background, it's given
me the chance to work with afair chunk of Ireland's national

(08:08):
governing bodies, a good chunkof our international track and
field athletes, and I have beenable to have clients and
patients in the last two Olympicgames.
So it's it's been a prettyinteresting eight to ten years.
Definitely never saw it goingthis way.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
So can you tell us a little bit for people that date,
nay.
So my background is as adietitian and high performance
nutritionist as well, but oftenpeople ask well, what's the
difference between anutritionist and a dietitian?
And you touched on there, doingdietetics in Malta.
Could you tell us a little bitabout the difference between the
two?

Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah.
So as far as I can tell, thekey difference is the dietitian.
You know, we're specificallytrained to have someone with a
medical condition, whether thatbe an eating disorder, whether
it be heart disease, whether itbe diabetes, ibs, gastro.
That's supposed to be thedelineation.
However, I'm sure you see ittoo on social media people very

(09:09):
frequently blur that line intothe medical field, where maybe
it's a little bit inappropriateto do so.
But that's that's supposed tobe the key difference.
It's a regulated profession aswell.
I'm sure you come across lotsof people who say they're
nutritionists but have no,shouldn't say that.
I suppose I'll be politicallycorrect.

(09:31):
But the key difference is thearea we can work in, the type of
people we can work with, andthat regulation, that kind of,
is that approval that there's acertain threshold of knowledge
and competence that you have andyou're very much held to that
standard.
And you're held to thatstandard of continuously
developing Like.

(09:52):
I'm absolutely sick of the CoruCPD log.
That's our kind of nationalgoverning body.
Those party credits are.
They're weighing heavily on meat the moment.
I have to sneak a few in beforeOctober, but it keeps you on
your toes.
I don't know if you feel thesame.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
No, absolutely, and I think you know.
One of those things that youtouched on there is that as
dietitians, we're regulated and,of course, there's some really
good nutritionists out there whohave a degree and master's
degrees.
But one thing that I always sayto people is make sure that you
check so for any of thesethings.
You know actually, charlie,your background as a financial

(10:30):
planner.
We should all be checkingsomeone's qualifications and
that they say what they do isactually they're qualified in
that area.
So I think it's reallyimportant that you know, over
when people are looking forprofessional advice, that they
are looking in the right places.
Where can people look for?

(10:50):
If they wanted to check outsomeone's credentials, if they
were looking for, like, aperformance nutritionist or a
dietitian, like, how wouldsomebody know that they were
qualified?
Where could they check?

Speaker 3 (11:02):
In Ireland.
Anyway.
You can go on to INDI, find adietitian and you'll find all
the private practice dietitiansthere.
You'll see me on it.
Weird fact, I'm actually theonly lad on that register there.
There's not a lot of meduitistsin Ireland, I don't know why,
but in Ireland you would checkthat for private practice
dietitians.
Otherwise you'd only comeacross them in clinical settings

(11:23):
and I mean clearly they havetheir credentials squared off of
during a hospital setting orthe context of sports
performance.
You can check the Senorregister.
That's the kind of beststandard or the seal of approval
for sports nutrition.
Someone is on a master's degreeor they're a dietitian who

(11:45):
specialises in sports or theirresearch or working in that area
.
That would be where I wouldadvise someone to look.
And in fact that's I'm Senoraccredited.
All of my team are Senoraccredited or dietitians about
to be Senor accredited for thatvery reason.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, no, excellent, it's good to know where to find
it.
Dietitians, and actually in theUK you can look on the British
Dietetic Association website andthe HCPC, so that's kind of
aligned medical professionals aswell.
So, yeah, it's good to knowwhere to find people.
Tell us a little bit about justkind of rolling back, a little

(12:20):
bit about race walking.
So we've had some amazingathletes on and it's not just
triathlon that we touch on andwe've had ultra runners We've
had actually last week we weretalking about obstacle racing.
So tell us a little bit aboutrace walking, because I don't
really know anything about it.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat your body composition needs

(12:42):
to be like to race walk,because I'm thinking maybe you
need to be like a marathonrunner.
Maybe I'm very wrong, but tellus a little bit about the
distances and because that's nowOlympic sport how that works.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
Yeah, so not many people do it.
It's a bit of infringement onthe athletic scene.
Basically, in terms of the bodycomposition you want, you have
to have the physiology of reallyhigh level marathon runner, but
you have to have the technicalcoordination of a hurdler.
It's a very technical sport.
It's the only sport that youcan be disqualified from or

(13:14):
nonviolent, I suppose.
In track and field, basically,the rules are very, very simple.
You have to have two feet onthe ground at all time, or the
appearance of two feet on theground at all time.
Your front leg has to lock, soit has to be 180 degrees or
hyperextended.
It happens anyway.
If you're ever trying to getinto it, lads, and you're

(13:36):
curious, would I be a great racewalker?
Just think of keeping your armsat 90 degrees and really drive
them and walking on your heels.
You'll kind of do it.
If you think of that.
I got into it because my daddid it.
I have no idea how he got intoit.
I just saw a newspaper clippingof him with a national medal
when I was 10 and I thought,okay, well, that's obviously

(13:59):
what I have to go and do now.
In terms of distances forunderage, you're looking at
anywhere from 2K to 10K.
It's the longest event in theworld during your championships
and the world youthchampionships, for example.
When you go up to 123, seniorlevel, then you're doing 20K.
There was a 50K event it wasthe longest event in the Olympic

(14:20):
Games but they cut it down to35.
To be honest, I'm not reallysure why I'm not in that inner
circle anymore.
It's been a while since Icompeted professionally, but a
lot of people underestimate thesport.
Often it's kind of poked fun atbecause the technique is.
If you're not in the sport youcould think those guys look a

(14:40):
bit funny.
Some people suggest that wewaddle or you sway a little bit
when you're walking, and it'strue.
But the mechanics of it andtheir reality of it if you ever
want to see, would I hack thepace at the front pack of a 20K
in the Olympic final.
Go on to a treadmill and turnthe dial up to 16, 17km an hour.

(15:03):
That's the speed that you'retrucking away at.
In terms of the biomechanics ofit, the high level race walkers
have the same cadence as the400m hurdler.
The whole event Step speed isinsane, bringing it back to what
is a race walker a marathonrunner with insane levels of

(15:23):
fast twitch fibers and very,very good technical skills.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
I can imagine how many people are now going to go
out there and try it because I'mjust thinking I'm not sure that
I could.
I'm sure we've all had a go atpretending to race walk.
It's really interesting thatyou talk about being like a
hurdler as well, because I wasthinking marathon runner, but I
didn't think about the hurdleraspect of it when you were

(15:49):
competing under 23s.
I'm always interested to findout in the world of nutrition.
It's not new, but actually Ithink more different sports and
coaches now are on board withactually making sure that
athletes have the correctnutrition.
There is a lot of old schoolthoughts on nutrition and

(16:11):
certainly there's a lot of oldschool coaching thoughts that
are still out there.
What was it like competing atunder 23s?
Did you get any nutritionaladvice?
What was it like at that time?

Speaker 3 (16:25):
It's a bit of a bugbear for me because my career
ended prematurely due to what Inow see in hindsight was
relative energy deficiency.
I had no nutritional oversight,no education on that front of
things.
My career flamed out when I wasin my second year of college,
halfway to a bachelor's degreenot specialized in sports.

(16:47):
I really didn't know what I wasdoing.
I tried a low carb diet becausea colleague or someone I looked
up to said Manu should try this.
I thought, well, he's betterthan me at this and he was in
the Olympics.
Clearly he's a fountain ofknowledge.
I did that and I ended upgetting very bad injury that I

(17:10):
couldn't shake in my lower leftlimb.
I had all of the hallmarks ofreds.
I had immunosuppression.
I had libido problems.
It affected my mental health.
It ruined my life actually forabout two years and it was hard
to watch because my plan allalong was to be in Rio and I

(17:30):
watched it from my couch, whichhurt my nutritional practices,
looked something like get up, dofast training because I thought
that was good.
Avoid carbs because I'd read Idon't know, maybe the Joe Rogan
podcast or something like that,and felt maybe I shouldn't be

(17:50):
cracking into these carbs herebecause they're bad.
I did the opposite of what Iwould advise someone do now.
I kind of think that's why Igot into the role I'm in now.
I advocate heavily for reds andmisinformation because I
suffered from it.

(18:10):
I am one of the statistics.
I should have been an Olympicathlete but I'm not.
Can.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
I just ask.
I know we've talked about itonce on the podcast before, but
can you just explain what redsis?
You've mentioned it a couple oftimes, so I think it'd be good
for an explanation.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
Sure, basically, relative energy deficiency in
sport, if you want to think of,in layman's terms, malnutrition
for athletes, if you think of anathlete, they're absolute
calorie output and sometimes beabsolutely insane.
It's not uncommon for one of myclients or patients to need
5,000, 6,000, 7,000 calories aday.
The logistics of eating thatare hard and the most common

(18:50):
problem a new client or patientwill have is when we actually
look at well, here's where youneed to be and here's where you
are.
That shortfall is huge and wecan stratify someone's risk
factors.
You use energy availability andI'm not going to get too
technical into it.
But for men and women there aredifferent, or there's thought

(19:13):
to be different, cutoff points.
So ladies are a little bit moresensitive to lower energy
deprivation than lads, the keydifference being the energy cost
of a reproductive system, andthat's why apparently, or
superficially anyway, morefemales suffer from reds or
under eating, because thesymptoms become apparent quicker

(19:35):
.
Think losing your menstrualcycle.
That's your key red flag.
I'm starting to make socialmedia content on this and I
raised a podcast recently onthis about reds in men.
For obvious reasons, lads don'ttalk about these things.
Definitely in Ireland there's adegree of probably ego and
embarrassment.

(19:55):
But the male version of losingyour menstrual cycle is a
rectile dysfunction or a loss inlibido.
And I have seen and do workwith lads who are under the age
of 30.
Aesthetically look, they lookthe picture.
I assume girls think they'rebrilliant.
It would be a pretty toughthing for them to say well,

(20:17):
actually I'm having this problembecause it totally emasculates
them.
What's thought at the moment ismore male athletes do suffer
from reds than we're aware of,because they're simply too
embarrassed to speak about.
But to go back and answer yourquestion, what is reds?
It's a multi-systemic issue.
If you're not eating enough,basically it crushes more or

(20:38):
less every aspect of your healthand your physiology.
Key symptoms would be a loss inperformance.
Your sleep might suffer becauseyou're going to have elevated
baseline stress hormones.
Did I freeze?

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, but I think we can hear you.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
Oh Grace, I'm just in one position, but that's okay.
Okay, I'll be talking thenBasically the symptom
constellation.
It's very varied.
You can go fromimmunosuppression to stress
fractures, to infertility, tochanges in your mental health or
an odd one.
A lot of athletes get this aschanges to gut health and bowel

(21:18):
patterns.
That's another common symptomas well.
It's an interesting one thatwe're still learning about.
But if you're an athlete and youthink maybe I don't eat enough,
there's a 100 percent chanceyou don't eat enough and you
should maybe talk to someoneabout what your calorie
requirements are and how you canbump those levels up a little

(21:39):
bit to avoid these problems.
Because one of the interestingthings is you can be in an
energy deficit for a whilebefore any issues become
apparent and you can think, well, I'm fine.
Then you get that threshold andit's like being hit by a car.
You can't do your training oneday or you don't recover when
you get it.

(21:59):
Then it takes a while to shakeit off.
The analogy I use at a runnerbecause there's such a low level
of inertia to do a running orcycling versus, say, a weight
lifter, where they have to beable to be 100 percent all the
time.
Endurance actually can run, jogor cycle through into their own
grave if they're not careful.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Evan, I think it's really important that you raise
not only personal experiences,but that it is absolutely
present in males.
I think many years ago, when wewere looking at the female
athlete triad, which was theoriginal thinking around this

(22:40):
problems with bone health, lackof menstrual cycles that's now
been encompassed into thatrelative energy deficiency.
I think it's really importantthat men are educated on it.
And you're absolutely right,it's easier if women have a
natural menstrual cycle to beable to see it, but of course
then there's women oncontraceptives and then you

(23:00):
don't see the menstrual cyclelosses either.
It's an emerging area, isn't it?
I think there's still somediscrepancies, or big
discrepancies, about how do weactually measure energy that
people are eating.
That's such a problem, isn't it?
Because it's so manyestimations there.
In terms of your, you touchedon kind of coming out with

(23:26):
coming out from the sport youwere doing because of red, is
that correct?
So was there an injury and thatsort of brought you out of
sport?

Speaker 3 (23:33):
Yeah, so this was never a diagnosis.
This is totally self-diagnosis.
In retrospect, I went to manydoctors with low neutrophil
counts, iron deficiency, lowvitamin D.
The recurring injuries,inability to tolerate high
intensity work, couldn't get myheart rate up.
I couldn't sleep and, to befair, this was 2014.

(23:59):
The consensus on reds itself andthe incorporation of male
physiology I don't think ithappened at that time.
It was a couple of months to ayear after that.
So in a sense, as far as adoctor was concerned, my problem
didn't exist.
So nobody knew what to say tome.
But I was textbook.

(24:21):
I had low glycogen availabilityat the, low carb intake, long
periods of time without food,high energy outputs.
I was very, very lean, which Ithought was great because I
looked great and again, that'skind of a bias they have to help
a lot of athletes with.
They can place aesthetic imagewith health and performance or

(24:42):
even virility.
They're very much not the samething.
But yeah, I'm very sure that Iwas a reds case.
It's just unfortunate that Iwas born in 1995 and hit that
when I was that age.
In that time.
If it happened now, I'd like toimagine that there would be

(25:02):
someone else like me who I couldreach out to who might have
shed light on.
Well, if this is what's goingon, someone can help you know.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
Absolutely.
And what do you think as aclinical dietitian, I guess this
is where some of our skills sitas well is?
There's a lot of mediaattention now on reds, which is
great.
It's really raised the profileof education and also some cases

(25:33):
that we've seen in, certainlyin British sports, where cases
of reds and eating disordershave now come to light with the
way that some people arecoaching.
What are your thoughts on?
Where does reds stop in?
An eating disorder begin?
Because there are these veryblurred lines.

(25:54):
There's this continuum isn'tthere, and I think some people
would feel happier to say I'vegot reds and I've got an eating
disorder.
Could you just tell ourlisteners like a little bit
about if they were thinkingactually I sat here now.
Oh God, that sounds a littlebit like me.
What's the main differencebetween those two diagnosis?

Speaker 3 (26:17):
So it's definitely.
For me anyway, it's probably abit of a judgment call or a
feeling, based on how Itypically judge it is the intent
.
What was your intent with thisdiet?
Is it that?
Were you trying to achieveextreme levels of leanness?
Do you have this high kind ofdrive or preoccupation of being

(26:40):
thin?
If so, why do you feel likethat?
And if someone clearly displaysthat they're very obsessed with
their body image, it makes up abig part of their headspace and
they engage purposely indisordered methods like skipping
meals, fasted training if theyhave good food, bad food

(27:00):
mentality, or rigid pinking orbumping savory mechanisms at
times Like I do come across cameacross hard to case not that
long ago, a marathon runnerwhose coach said you must be X
kilos or you're not racing.
So she resorted to diureticsand ended up in hospital with
hyponatremia and obviously thewhole build up to that there's

(27:25):
this whole fractured body imageof food relationship, total
warped view as to what is normal, and I think some athletes
don't see their kind ofdisordered cognition as a
problem, as some of theircoaches or their peers think
like that.
But just to contrast, then Ihave had a lot of athletes who

(27:51):
under fuel and have had reds andit's completely not intentional
.
They're just actually shockedwhen I go through the maths.
Like what do you need to beeating the equivalent of 30
spots today?
Like you're not doing that.
And they're there scratchingtheir head thinking, oh my god,

(28:12):
I didn't notice.
Generally it's very clear ifit's disordered or not.
But you kind of have to delve alittle bit deeper and I'm
fortunate here as a privatepractice dietician you can be a
little bit on your own and therecan be that pressure or
expectation that you're a GP,psychologist and a dietician

(28:32):
wrapped into one.
But I have a counselor whoworks with me and I have sports
medicine physicians who Idirectly refer to.
So there's a hint of anythingdisordered whatsoever.
It's just a straight referredand we asked them to do their
bloods link in with sports medphysician and we do the
nutrition support on our end.
So I've never missed one, to myknowledge, of eating disorder.

(28:57):
Because it becomes clear as youtalk, I suppose.
But for a listener I thinkmaybe the easiest way to
stratify your risk of having aneating disorder is is the intent
of your dietary restriction toachieve low body mass levels?
Do you think about that a lotor were you just unaware you had

(29:20):
to eat lots.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
No, absolutely, Thank you.
I think that hopefully giveslisteners a bit of an idea about
some of those signs andsymptoms of reds as well.
Just thinking along these linesof restriction, race walking,
endurance sports we've talked tolots of different people and
obviously heavily in the mediais about low carbohydrate diets

(29:46):
and we have lots of opinions ofpeople that we interview, which
is really, really interesting.
Just thinking about yourbackground in endurance sport
and race walking when you weredoing that, or what are the
nutritional strategies for racewalking, I appreciate if there's
shorter distance now I'velearned and there's longer
distance, I was thinking it wasjust longer distance.

(30:06):
What would the nutritionalstrategy be like for that?
And is there a part of it whereyou do do some glycogen
depletion or lower training in afasted state or a lower
carbohydrate state?

Speaker 3 (30:23):
So for the 20K, 10k, definitely not.
Those guys crack away justunder their anaerobic threshold
for most of it.
So that's totally glycolytic.
For the 50K, you could argue toa degree that getting good at
burning fat is an importantaspect of this because you only
have a finite amount of glycogen.

(30:43):
But maybe it's my personal biasand fear of underfueling people
.
Insofar as I've read, if you'realready a well-trained
endurance athlete, your capacityto oxidize fat is already
pretty good.
And if you can imply carbloading tactics appropriately,

(31:04):
whether it be 20K, where you'relooking for maybe eight to 10
grams per kg body weight to theday before, or at a 50, you're
looking for 12.
And if you have goodpre-tactics and you're able to
take on adequate stuff during it.
Personally I veer away fromdoing fasted work because that
load likeage and availability itdoes have knock-on effects.

(31:26):
With racewalkers in particularthis is one very niche point.
With that heel striking you geta lot of foot strike hemolysis.
So these guys really struggleto keep their fat and count up.
So if we look at it from thatperspective, we know that fasted
work amplifies the hips inresponse to exercising.
You can make it far harder tomaintain, I suppose, balanced

(31:48):
iron levels and from what I'veseen and again my understanding,
there's no clear benefit tohaving an athlete be fat adapted
or optimized.
And in fact the supernova studythat Louise Burke-Elle did in
Australia was done inracewalkers.
The outcome was interesting.

(32:09):
I'm a nerd so I obviouslythought it was very interesting.
I thought it was brilliant.
I read it a few times.
The athletes they did it in arandomised crossover method.
They put them onhigh-periodised and
low-carbohydrate approaches.
Interestingly, the low carburshad a higher view to max but
were on average of 10% to 15%slower.

(32:30):
And the outcome from that studywas you can be fat adapted and
you'll appear to be fitter, butit's just less efficient.
So everything I've read todaysuggests that you probably don't
need to do fat adaptation orglycogen depletion.
Maybe if I worked in the Tourde France my mind would change.

(32:52):
But even with any Ironmanathlete I work with and again,
it might be my bias towards fearof underfuelling or eliciting
iron deficiency or stressfractures, but we do know fasted
stuff- no, thank you.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
For those of you who are listening, the supernova
trials I think Louise Burke isnow.
She's a researcher and adietician, actually in Australia
, isn't she?
I think she's now on numberfour.
I think she's just done theketones and low-carbohydrates
high-fat, isn't she as well?
So for anybody that wants toread those journals, there's

(33:28):
also snippets out there.
It's really interesting abouttrials in using fat as a fuel
source versus using carbohydrateand endurance sports and the
background was in racewalkers.
So really interesting to have aread as well.
So, just thinking abouttechnology we've been talking a

(33:51):
lot about technology andCharlie's probably going to dip
in in a little second because heloves his tech.
I also like technology, but wehave different thoughts on it.
So I'd love to know yourthoughts on technology in the
nutrition space what you thinkmaybe is useful, not useful, and

(34:11):
whether there's anything thatif you were going to make a
product like an AI product or atech product, is there anything
you think the nutrition world ofsports nutrition needs?

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Personally and this may not be popular opinion I
think there is possibly slightlytoo much tech and I think what
it's done is it'd be like givingan MRI machine to someone with
no background in radiography ormedicine.
Cgm is a great example.

(34:43):
If you do sports nutritionappropriately and you have your
high GI carbs before trading,your blood sugar will do that.
If you are in a CGM and you seethat rising sugar, you think
you don't have, I suppose, aclinical nuance to see that that
should happen.
You can think, oh no, I clearlyhave type 2 diabetes now.

(35:04):
Or you can Google my bloodsugar is 8 millimoles.
What does that mean?
And it'll tell you all sorts ofhorrible things.
I'll stick on a CGM for asecond.
I think when healthynon-diabetics use CGMs, it
pathologizes daily normalfluctuations in blood sugar and
it makes them possiblycarapphobic or overly fixated on

(35:27):
something that is really notthat important for a normal,
healthy person.
So that's popular opinionnumber one.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Can I just ask?
Sorry, Evan, just to explainwhat a CGM means for those
people listening.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Those glucose monitor made initially for people with
type 1 diabetes, who do need tobe able to calculate what their
blood sugar is all the time andthus what insulin requirements
they have.
In the sports sphere, peopleare data crazy, so they felt
wouldn't it be brilliant anddefinitely useful if we can know
what our blood sugar is all thetime?
And I think in researchsettings, yes, but free living

(36:08):
people, I just I think it's abit OTT.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
Can I?

Speaker 1 (36:16):
just ask, sorry, just because having just read a book
called the glucose goddess, I'mjust intrigued by the concept
of that.
The more glucose or blood sugarspikes will get, the worse the
impact is on our long termhealth.
Could you just talk around that, because that's one of the
reasons why having a glucosemonitor would be useful or

(36:40):
considered useful.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah.
So I suppose it's important tolook at this in context.
If we're talking about athleticcohorts here, generally, we're
talking about very well insulinsensitized people who probably
are reasonably healthy anyway.
So I think glucose spike isprobably a dramatization as to
what might happen, like itdoesn't, probably doesn't jump

(37:02):
to 11, 12, really months.
If it does, then you may have,you definitely might have a bit
of a problem if it's doing thatperhaps.
Or let's say the I suppose thesports nutrition tactics we
would talk about pre and postexercise, they're not healthy
eating guidelines.
They don't look like healthyeating guidelines at all.

(37:22):
So I think it's very importantto contextualize that.
If you're looking at 24-hourday, you're training there you
do sports nutrition guidelinesis in low fiber, high GI carbs
around that.
That is notably not optimal forblood sugar control.
The rest of your day would be.
So the the slight bump in bloodsugar before training where you

(37:44):
might get to six, seven, Iwould say at most eight million
moles is not necessarilypathological.
I go to an algae, kind of a Tomand Chico, and I would use
LucasAid.
Sport is called LucasAid sports.
It's not designed.
We drank while you're sittingon the couch watching television
.
If you applied sports nutritionguidelines for your whole day,

(38:05):
you would 100% be type twodiabetic or have fatty liver
disease.
I would say within a month, twomonths, like very easily.
Could you imagine eating 30slices of white bread a day to
meet your needs throughout thewhole day?
That would be a disaster.
So I think, looking at thetiming, the context, the cohort,

(38:26):
the actual magnitude of thatglucose variability and the
actual real impact of that, Ithink it's important not to over
, over pathologize that I thinkmy clients who have had CGMs
they'll come, they'll sit in ona session and they'll say, oh,
my blood sugar was seven millionmoles.
That's above the threshold, yousee, for fasting glucose in a

(38:48):
blood test and it gives themreally bad anxiety.
And you explain well, actually,that's okay, you don't need to
worry about us.
Your HPA1C, or your averageblood sugar over the last three
months, was well within thehealthy range, you're okay.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
I think it's useful, isn't it?
You talked about things likethe CGM in terms of you need to
know how to interpret thoseresults.
You refer to an MRI andactually short uses for
education can be quite usefuland I think, charlie, one of the
things that you raised there,actually, when you use it in

(39:25):
different populations, again,the education behind it, the
profile is likely to look verydifferent to an athlete.
So they're very differentthings that we're talking about,
I guess, in using a CGM, and Ithink it can be quite useful
actually in people who are notmoving very much, not doing very

(39:46):
much exercise and are possiblyovereating or living a lifestyle
where they're drinking lots ofalcohol and eating out a lot.
Because, actually, thateducational piece on where it is
right now and if we makechanges, so, yeah, absolutely, I
think, if you've got technology, know what you're going to do
with the information.
Is there anything else that youuse in terms of tech in with

(40:11):
nutrition or anything that you'dlike to see invented that would
help us?

Speaker 3 (40:15):
Yeah, well, I use Nutritix a lot with people in
Libro.
That's kind of how I trackpeople remotely and that works
pretty well.
I'll often transpose that ontosomeone's training peaks day
there or I'll get their powermeter.
That will help me to accurately, or kind of accurately or as
accurate as possible interpretinput versus output and what has

(40:37):
been the case for some athletesyou know.
If you can use again Nutritix,you can get a really detailed
breakdown as someone's dailyintake.
And sometimes that'll happen,as an athlete will say, I felt
short that day and you might seethat.
Well, you know, the nightbefore you had basically an
omelette.
There was no carbs in that.
You didn't have the funds topay for your session that

(40:57):
morning or your calories wereslightly down for the two or
three days prior to that.
So you can have troubleshootthere by looking at the notes.
In terms of what I like to seetech being developed, what is
being developed at the moment,what I'm very curious about is
hexes.
They kind of carryperiodization for you.
That's very, very usefulbecause it's a question I get

(41:19):
asked by clients.
I'm sure you're the same allthe time.
So I think for sports nutritionanyway, I see that as the
coolest or most interestingthing that's being developed at
the moment.
To be honest, I rarely get tospend time delving into the
world of tech outside of that.
I barely have time to scratchmy head these days.

(41:40):
So the hexes, nutritix Libro,those are my tools that I would
use, I suppose.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
I think there's going to be just more and more
integration, isn't there?
So some of these nutrition appsthat are using AI to be able to
pick up data from trainingplatforms like TrainingPeaks or
Final Surgery or whatever itmight be, to be able to say this
is what training you did.
Therefore, this is whatcarbohydrate you need.
So, yeah, I think it's reallyinteresting how all of these

(42:10):
pieces of technology are now allable to talk to each other.
Where do you see we talked alot about AI and then what
happens to the, what happens toprofessions and how do we work
with it?
How do you see, with all ofthese pieces of AI and these
technologies, where do you seenow, like a performance

(42:31):
nutritionist or dietitiansitting like where?
How can we work with all ofthese technologies?
Because people are going towant to take them on and will
obviously take them on.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
I think AI is a fair bit away from having the
clinical acuity of apractitioner.
Thank you.
I think it's great for givingyou general guidance.
I don't think it can beclinical or interpret things.
I definitely don't think it caninterpret things.
Yet.
It also isn't necessarilyempathic.

(43:04):
It's not personable.
I would like to take much like aconsultant with a fancy suite
of MRI machines, blood work.
It'll just kind of add to whatwe do.
I think some people are afraidit'll replace as kind of like a
Terminator doomsday scenario.
I don't really see that.

(43:25):
I think there's a lot ofconsiderations to make.
Like you know, if a client hasa bad day of training, it's not
automatically down to poornutrition.
I'm sure you're the same.
But when you talk to someoneyou can see other things going
on.
Like you know, someone mightmention that they're having a
tough time or they're notsleeping great.

(43:46):
You've got that line of inquiry.
I don't think AI can expand orelaborate for whatever purpose
it's designed.
Let's say, like the carperiodization.
It's not going to ask you howyour day was and like delve into
what are the non-nutritionreasons for this poor
performance.
And I definitely think frompersonal experience that happens

(44:09):
a lot.
That's a lot of theconversations we would have.
Where the nutrition appears tobe okay, you have to find
another answer.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, I think it's definitely.
Isn't it Like working alongsideall of those pieces of
information and actually thathelps us sometimes to do our job
and those questions questioningas well?
What we always like to ask isabout books that people have
been reading, so it might be abook, or maybe it's a podcast.
Is there anything that you'vebeen reading recently that you'd

(44:38):
like to recommend?

Speaker 3 (44:42):
Unless people really like to read research papers.
To be honest, how I stay on topof things is I have a Twitter
account under a pseudonym, sopeople don't message me on it.
I just see what researchers arecranking out.
I try and stay on top of that.
There are a few key researchersI follow Astro Eupendrub,

(45:02):
louise Burke, james Martin,Sammy Wilympie if they really
something, I read it.
Otherwise, segment NutritionPodcast is a very good kind of
educated one for me.
To be honest, I learn an awfullot from that because, again, as
a dietician, you can getanything sitting in front of you
.
Case in point, I have a clientat the moment who is an ultra

(45:27):
runner with gastroparesis andcyclical vomiting syndrome.
There is no textbook for that.
It's an amalgamation ofdifferent sets of clinical
guidelines Alongside the ad hocreading.
a lot of my reading is more orless based on what clients I
have.
I'm reading lots intogastroparesis, maybe medium

(45:50):
change right lyseroids to see ifwe can get around that.
It'll differ from week to week.
I've had people who've hadsevere IBS.
You have to elicit FODMAP dietsbut try and get them very
high-carb.
That clinical variety is whatkeeps me on my toes.
Again, there's not necessarilya book.
If you're trying to combineclinical dietics with sports

(46:14):
nutrition which is more so whereI live as opposed to absolute
elite performance, so it can bepretty erratic I can.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Clearly there's a lot of noise in this space of what
we should eat and what weshouldn't eat, and there's a lot
of books on it.
Are there any books that you dofind yourself recommending to
your clients that you think is agood sort of base learning

(46:43):
level that they can go to?

Speaker 3 (46:46):
Honestly, not popular , not really.
If you really want to learnabout sports nutrition all of
the aforementioned people Ithink, baris, sami, olimpia
written textbooks on it if youreally want to get into it, you
can 100% do that.

(47:06):
Otherwise, I mean you can pointpeople towards educational
videos.
There are some things onYouTube that are educational and
evidence-based, or you can tryyour best to educate in sessions
.
So I would find that as asports dietitian, you're almost
half a teacher and that's wherea lot of the education would

(47:30):
work with for my clientspersonally.
And if anyone does come on boardwith us, one of the first
things we'll say to them is wewanted that.
In three to six months' tops,you never need to talk to me
again or anyone like me, becauseyou know what to do.
So in that sense, I don'treally feel the need to
recommend books.
And again, unpopular opinion,maybe number four or five today

(47:55):
A lot of books in the nutritionsphere are kind of self-help
books that appear to benutrition books.
I don't think they're actuallyvery helpful, to be honest.
Or I think they give genericguidelines because they have to
and for nutrition it's allcontext, and you simply can

(48:16):
point someone to a book to say,well, this is your context, All
of this is for you and no oneelse.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
That's a very valid point, isn't it?
Is that you can't have or eatthe same thing every single day,
the same as somebody else,because our days are so
different.
We always have a question fromthe last person that we've had
on the podcast.
So we have been speaking to anOlympic, an American Olympic

(48:47):
triathlete, Katie Zephyrus, andshe has a question for you.
So here goes what is your mostimpactful year and why?

Speaker 3 (48:59):
My most impactful year?
I would have to say it's thisyear, 2023.
Thus far, I put a big effortinto social media sharing
content and I've found thatthrough that maybe or not, maybe
it has connected with quite alot of people.

(49:20):
Let's say I release content onthings people struggle with in
private, what are to embarrassto talk about, like peak
emergency touring exercise ormale athletes with libido, or if
you're not able to sleep atnight as an athlete, maybe
that's an underfueling thing,perhaps it could be if you check

(49:43):
box A, b and C.
So how would I kind ofsummarize this?
Advocating for evidence-basedsports nutrition in a public way
has enabled me to connect withand thus help people, either on
a one-to-one basis, or they'veread the message and said you
know, I need to get this lookedat and I do get messages all the

(50:06):
time for the podcast, even whenwe pick kind of niche topics
and people say it does help them.
So yeah, it would have to bethis year.
I'm not a kind of natural curveanyway, like I'm lucky to be in
a position that my own businessand practice is growing.
I've taken on four people thisyear, so larger we are, the

(50:28):
bigger of an impact we can have.
The thing I'm most proud of isI should figure out the phrase
as well I find that maleathletes are not well advocated
for and it's kind of it's theopposite in every other setting

(50:49):
from what I can see.
You know, generally speaking,there's always a fight for
equality between men and womenin sports nutrition with respect
to reds.
As a male dietitian who had uscoming from a professional
sports background specializingin this area, that is the thing
that I've been able to helppeople the most with.

(51:10):
And you see, you see it like.
I mean, when these guys call meor you're sitting with them
first, they're trying to work upthe courage to say things
downstairs don't work and no oneknows why.
You talk to them and they gothrough all the things they're

(51:30):
doing, all that jazz and that'sbeen a big thing in 2023.
And maybe people don't know.
Maybe people laugh at EDbecause historically it's choked
about.
But low testosterone levels andlads is not a benign thing.
That can cause low bone mineraldensity, infertility.

(51:51):
Imagine if you're trying tohave kids and your sperm count
is too low and you're not awarethat's because you do too much
fast at training or you skipcarbs.
That might never get picked upin a GEP surgery.
That has been my most impactfulthing deciding to advocate for
that one thing specifically.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
So like impact on you and your own business, but also
impact on other people as well.
Fantastic, and just ready tosort of wind things up today
from this fantastic conversationwith you, We've also got one
last question and we ask ourlisteners to send a question in
and they don't know who we'regoing to interview, so it could

(52:31):
be anything.
So we've got a question herefrom one of our listeners,
Carrie, and she said what beliefdo you hold that most people
disagree with you on?

Speaker 3 (52:47):
No one.
No one can.
Maybe I should rephrase thisEverything is up to you.
That's there, are.
There are tools there to helpyou.
People will wish you well, andthis.
This came about after myathletics career fell apart and
the athletics world moved onvery quickly without me.

(53:09):
There were very few helpinghands and it was a very lonely
realization that if I ever wantanything, it's totally up to me
can reach out for help, but it'sup to me.
A lot of people maybe have anarrative that they've spawned
that when my circumstancesdifficult or I have many excuses

(53:30):
and generally I find excusesare valid, but it was still a
very lonely place, but my headon a pillow, thinking, well,
none of this worked out.
Even though I had lots of validexcuses, you're still.
You still end up in the sameplace.
So that that mentality it makesme very hard working and fairly

(53:53):
unrelenting, and some peoplemaybe think it's a bit of an
over simplistic look at thingsthat you know things don't work
out or things are out of yourcontrol, but I choose not to let
them be, I suppose.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Yeah, absolutely that sounds, sounds like actually a
very sensible piece of sensiblepiece of advice as well.
Well, evan, has been amazing tospeak to you and thank you for
sharing all of your informationabout you and your sport and
also your, your career to dateand all the insights and all the
technical and more nerdy bits.
So hopefully our listeners havehad a lot, a lot to think about

(54:32):
and, you never know, they mightbe going out there and reading
some some journal papers ratherthan a book this week.
So thanks very much, evan.

Speaker 3 (54:39):
It's my pleasure Grace.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Thank you, evan.
It was really fascinating and,yeah, there's a lot of
background noise going on here,so absolutely brilliant, and but
I was very glad to sit andlisten to the expert speak about
this subject.
So thank you very much, cheers.
If you want to find out moreabout Evan, then you can find
him on Instagram and he is eLynch and that's L Y N C H fit

(55:05):
nut.
So e Lynch fit nut on Instagram.
He's also on LinkedIn and he's.
His website is Evan Lynch fitnutcom will put all of those
links in the show notes, asalways.

(55:26):
If you know what we do at thetriathlon podcast, you've got a
register for tribe talk.
It's an email that comes outevery two weeks packed full of
everything to do with swim, bikeand run, but also nutritional
help, business coaching and awhole lot more, whether that's
books, videos, ted talks, appsor technologies.
It's packed full of ideas thatcan help improve your sport,

(55:50):
your life and your business.
So register for it attribeathloncom and you'll be
sure that every two weeks, yourinbox is full of some amazing
ideas and resources to improveyour life.
So what did you make of theinterview with Evan?

Speaker 2 (56:17):
It was yeah, it was really interesting.
Obviously it was right up mystreet in terms of nutrition, so
I would I would say it wasinteresting, but I really like
his.
I mean, everyone's talkingabout relative energy deficiency
in sport now, which is a reallygood thing, but I guess it's
become a bit more generic innature.

(56:38):
But it was really good to hearhim talking from more on like
the kind of male perspectiveside of things which I think
it's not always talked about.
So I really love the fact thathe's been really kind of getting
that message out there andtalking about it.
What did you think actuallyfrom a male perspective?
You know, I know we've talkedabout it, haven't we on the

(56:59):
podcast before?

Speaker 1 (57:01):
but I don't know it was a group of like men outside
which you don't know whetheryou'd ever discuss anything like
that or talk about anything interms of energy or Well,
interestingly so normally, no, Iwould not be talking about that
and I thought it was reallyinteresting because we obviously
we kind of touched on itbriefly with Dr Nikki Kay, but

(57:22):
we obviously still spend a lotof time talking about reds in
females as opposed to males, andso I thought it was really
interesting how previously, whenyou've done podcasts and things
like that, that guys hadsuddenly kind of come out of the
woodwork to say actually I amhaving this sort of issue.
Anyway, so while I was away at aconference last week and I was

(57:45):
chatting to a fellow enduranceathlete and we started talking
about something and I mean,admittedly we both had a few
beers, so it was kind ofprobably an easier conversation
to have but as soon as Imentioned, kind of we started
talking about relative energydeficiency and we weren't
talking about any issues eitheras we're having.
But as soon as I mentioned thesymptom, he was suddenly like,

(58:07):
hmm, what I need to know moreabout that.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
And so I just direct.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
you know I said share with him the podcast once it's
live, but I think there is a lotmore of that.
That particular person was doinga lot of fasting as well as a
lot of training, and I was likeyou know, actually, I suspect
there is something going onthere that he didn't want to say

(58:30):
in as many words, but I thinkthere's a much bigger problem
than perhaps we realise, andwhether it's when it's that or
whether it's kind of leaning onto osteoporosis, I thought it
was a really interestingconversation.
I think it's really good to begetting that message out there
and trying to yeah, trying tobring awareness to it, because
if that's the first sign of amuch bigger problem later on,

(58:54):
then we need to, you need toknow about it and deal with it,
don't you?

Speaker 2 (58:57):
Yeah, and I think it is.
It is that awareness andtalking about it and, like you
say, there's, there's, you know,been so much focus from a
female perspective, becausegenerally, but not always, it's
easier to to spot in women andactually a lot of the research
in terms of energy deficiency,right from the female athlete
triad that was the kind of oldmodel really obviously was

(59:20):
always talking about women.
So the fact that within the newmodel which is now being
re-looked at anyway, but withinthe new model, you know, there
are so many factors that youknow that it is, it is men
involved as well, it's just notso obvious.
But if we talk about it more,maybe men will actually think
yeah, actually this is obviousto me Now.

(59:41):
Now I know all the symptoms.
So, no, it was really good tohave that conversation and I
love speaking about race walkingas well, something I have never
had a go at with my long legs.
And yeah, just that wasinteresting to hear his
background, wasn't it the time?
is coming from race walking.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
It was, and not only that, the speed of which they're
actually race walking.
I mean that.
That was, I mean I think he wassaying about 10 minute miles,
wasn't he For, I think?
Which I think he's amazing, youknow, there's there's a lot of
people that be very happyrunning a marathon at 10 minute
miles.
So probably these guys arewalking at that pace.
Is is quite phenomenal.
So, yeah, no, I thought I wasreally interesting and I think,

(01:00:24):
yeah, maybe we need to exploremore about race walking,
particularly when you, you know,one of the things that we talk
to ultra runners about is thefact that there's a lot of
walking in an ultra marathon.
So if you could walk at 10minute miles, then that makes
you an ultra running, you know,makes you a significantly better
ultra runner and perhapssomething we could chat to an

(01:00:47):
ultra runner about in future.
But yeah, no, I thought it was.
I thought it was reallyinteresting.
So let's wind this episode up,but another great episode where,
hopefully, you took some reallyinteresting learning points
from what I did.
And, yeah, good luck with yourtraining, claire.
Thank you very much.
And, for everyone else, keep ontraining and remember this

(01:01:15):
episode was brought to you bythe trusted team and by fourth
discipline.
So if you want to find out moreabout how the trusted team can
help you grow your business andimprove your work life balance,
go to the trusted dot team, andif you want to find out more
about how fourth discipline canhelp take your performance in
sport and life to the next level.

(01:01:35):
Go to fourthdisciplinecom.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please do review it and share it
, because it helps other peoplefind what we think is really
valuable learning lessons fromamazing athletes.

(01:01:56):
So please do that.
You can also find the wholeback catalog at tribeathlonecom
and you can also find out aboutthe tribeathlon app, which helps
people find events, find peopleto train with and enjoy their
events through their tribe.
So check out tribeathlonecom.