The Art of Endurance: Insights from Adventure Racer Ian Adamson

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Charlie Venigan and I'm Claire Fudge and this is
the TRIBE Athlon podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
Not one incident in the scientific literature for
people dying from dehydrationduring athletic competitions
never happened.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
That was Ian Adamson, and this episode is the World
of Adventure.
Ian Adamson is a world-renownedendurance athlete, event
director, producer and also apublished author.
He accumulated 10 worldchampionship wins, 25 world

(01:00):
championship podium finishes andgold, silver and bronze medals
at the ESPN X Games.
Ian is a six-time GuinnessWorld Record holder, one of
which was for Kaya King 262miles in 24 hours and is a
current Ninja World Recordholder.
Ian was a founding member ofTeam Nike, which won over 100

(01:21):
championship races and featuredon the Eco Challenge, primal
Quest and other TV showcompetitions.
He has three decades working inmedical, sports and outdoor
product industries, is thepresident of World Obstacle and
works as a legal forensic expert.
Quite an amazing CV.
Claire and I got the chance tochat to Ian about the different

(01:44):
formats of adventure racing aworld of endurance sport I don't
really know that much about.
We also chatted him about thetop adventure races around the
world, some of which just soundincredible, and then also
fueling for multi-day enduranceevents and how to deal with
sleep when you're racing thatlong.
So this is an incredible guyand an incredible interview with

(02:07):
one which I know you're goingto enjoy.
So I hope you enjoy thisinterview with Ian Adamson.
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That's thetrustedteam.
Come join us at one of ourevents.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
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Speaker 1 (04:01):
So, ian, welcome to the Tribe Athlon podcast.
I feel like this is an episodewhere I'm going to be completely
out of my depth.
I know very little about yoursport, but it feels like it
doesn't feel a million miles offthe world of endurance support
that we know much better.
So I feel like you need to comeat this from very much a

(04:23):
beginner's angle.
But I'd like to kick thesepodcasts off with understanding
the story behind the athlete.
You have an incredible CV ofachievements through a multitude
of different sports, but howdid you find your way into the
world of endurance sport, andparticularly then obstacle
racing?

Speaker 3 (04:44):
Oh gosh.
Yes, well, that is a long storyso I'll try and keep it brief.
I was an athlete.
I had the Olympic dream from avery, very young age.
There was two things I reallywanted to do as a kid.
One was being an Olympian andthe other one was getting in the
Guinness Book of World Records,because I would pour over that
and look at people swallowinggoldfish and juggling cats and

(05:07):
just stuff that were.
Really I thought there wassomething there for me, whatever
it was, and that started aslong as I can remember.
So probably when I was four orfive, I was browsing books and
watching the games and I hadthat kind of thing going.
So I would try everything.

(05:27):
I still do.
I just love competing.
I love sport in every manner,whether it's Cornhole in the
United States or Cricket orFootball, you name it, I just
love it.
My grandfather was a NationalFederation President for
Football.
He was actually Scottish.
He competed for Scotland as ayoung lad in about I'm going to

(05:49):
say was about 1916 somewherearound then Immigrate to
Australia, became head of theAustralian Soccer Football
Federation.
So I kind of knew the world byassociation, but as a kid I had
really knew nothing about it andmy grandfather would have
endless stories aboutmarathoners and all these
amazing athletes.
So that was kind of theenvironment I grew up in.

(06:11):
My dad was a very good cyclist.
My brother and sister weretalented athletes way more than
me so I just played everythingand that would be all.
Through high school it wasswimming and track and field and
volleyball and football andrugby.
Anything goes.
By.
The time I got to university Iwas a little more focused
because now I was thinking aboutmaybe I could actually be good

(06:33):
at something.
Maybe by the end of universityI was pretty deep in canoe and
kayak.
I'd stop playing.
I'd been a soccer referee andcoach and player at a moderate
level, which was fun, but thensort of got into canoeing and
then eventually made anAustralian team.

(06:54):
But along the way I was stilldoing other stuff.
Cycling was my dad's cycle, soI started cycling competitively
as a young age group.
I think I was 11 when I trulystarted competing and what that
ended up creating was an athletethat you would typically see in
a triathlon if they're goodenough.
And so I was good enough tocompete in the early days in

(07:17):
triathlon to about 1984 tocomplete, I don't know, top 10%
I suppose, but not good enoughto be truly competitive.
And then I was also a kayakerand I was quite a good navigator
because I was a sailor as well.
I mean, you can see what'sgoing on here.
I had too many sports that isnot conducive to being

(07:40):
particularly good at anything,even the multi-sport stuff.
Australians at the time werevery, very good triathletes,
maybe even today.
So people like Brad Bevin backin the day and these guys were
competing well world champions.
They're competing at worldlevel.
I'm sorry I really didn't havea prayer of making a team in
triathlon in canoe a bit better,but still not good enough to

(08:00):
make a games.
And that led to actuallyadventurising of all things,
which is kind of anything goes.
So the more you're competent at, the better you tend to be.
Challenge there, of course, isthere was no money to speak of.
That's not quite true.
There was.
Back in the 80s you could wincars and things.
By the time I immigrated to theUS in 1991, as an engineer of

(08:25):
all things.
I was a biomedical engineer, Iwas working in a heart
peacemaker company and I saw myopportunity to move to Boulder,
colorado, with the big dogs inendurance competitions,
especially multi-sports.
So tons of triathletes here atthat time and in San Diego.
That then led to a professionalcareer as an adventure athlete
by coincidence, I suppose?

(08:46):
No, it's not coincidence, itwas more timing and there was a
period when there was a sportcalled adventure racing which
was pretty big Well, not prettybig, it was huge.
There were global, there wasWorld Cups, there were full-time
professional athletes.
I was one of them and you couldwin even back then six figure

(09:07):
incomes for the top athleteswere not uncommon.
We were earning a lot more thantriathletes at the time, in
fact almost any other, in factall endurance athletes.
No one was earning more than usand that was driven by
television.
There was a TV show back in theday called the Eco Challenge,
which was sort of global andthat allowed advertising,
sponsorship and professionalathletes, and I was one of those

(09:30):
that went away.
I'd met Bob around that time.
My agent was a guy calledMurphy Rine-Triber.
He is actually a guy calledMurphy Rine-Triber and he also
managed Paul and Yubi Preyzo andGreg Welch and a whole bunch of
us old school athletes,endurance athletes.
So it was a pretty good company.
Heather Fuhrer, I mean.
It goes on and on and on.
Many of them, like Paul Huddleand Rock Fry, are still in, I

(09:53):
believe, still in triathlon, Ithink, in Europe, managing Iron
man.
This last I checked, so we weresort of colleagues under the
same umbrella and that's where Imet Bob.
So Bob Babbit, terrificgentleman, one of my favorite
guys on earth, bon Joly, greatinterview, and that then led

(10:14):
full circle.
I went through all sorts ofthings.
I tried to retire myself haveby that.
I tried to retire,unsuccessfully, as an adventurer
.
So I thought I would last aboutthree years if I was lucky.
So my exit strategy was allright.
I don't think I'll last verylong competing.
Maybe I can help organize.

(10:35):
So then I coincidentally got ajob offer.
Maybe not so coincidentally, itwas actually Murphy Rine-Triber
offered me a job working on oneof the events that he was
producing called the OutdoorQuest, and that was a wealthy
event I think.
They gave out $1.6 million inprize money over time.
So it was pretty good.
We're earning good money$200,000 in race steps, which is

(10:58):
decent money.
But I switched from I'dunsuccessfully competed in it
Well, came second three timeshow about that?
And then went to the other side, which was event production.
So I worked for Murphy and histeam.
I was originally the course andtechnical director for the
event and then started workingwith the TV guys and over that,

(11:19):
one thing led to another and Ibecame an event producer and
television producer forEndurance Shows and that gave me
my exit strategy.
Except I kept racing foranother seven years.
So I was doing both and then Ifinally did give it up.
I retired in 2007.
After my seventh WorldChampionship win in adventure
racing I thought, hey, goodenough for that, sounds like

(11:40):
good enough for me.
Maybe not the best company inthe world, but still no, that's
a great guy, I like him a lot.
So then I slid into the eventproduction, did that full time
for a while and televisioncreated an event called 24 Hours
of Triathlon Actually eighthours and 24 Hours of Triathlon,
which I believe is still goingon.
Did that, built it from zero topretty good in about four years

(12:03):
.
Then gave it away to a charity.
Then started working the shoeindustry because I've been
sponsored by Nike and Salomonover a period of about 15 years.
Then started producing shoes atNewton Running Company.
Did that for seven years.
A friend of my, joe DeSena Isaid long story told you.

(12:23):
A friend of my, joe DeSena andI met racing eco challenge in
the 90s.
He had started Spartan Race,which became pretty big, now
globally dominant, and we'dstayed in touch and I actually
produced his first race in 2001,which was Expedition BVI,
british Virgin Islands, sailedaround on yachts and did fun
things and went to nice places.

(12:44):
So he kept calling me, stayedin touch and he said eventually
he started Spartan Race and Ikind of got back involved and by
2013, he had this idea to takeSpartan racing to the Olympics.
That was his idea and he saidIan, you're the guy.
Actually he was a lady calledColleen, another friend of ours,
who had worked on ExpeditionBVI, and so I was intrigued and

(13:08):
said okay.
So I consulted for a year toSpartan Race to see if it was
possible to create a sport andgo to the Games.
It is about the general.
So I kind of reconnecting withall my colleagues.
I was talking to thetriathletes and people like Paul
and Rock and Paula and theysaid, yeah, I mean it's always

(13:30):
possible but it takes a while.
And I was talking to Geiss,which Sportacord, which is kind
of one of the regulatory bodiesthat assists sports becoming
sports, and the generalconsensus was it's not
impossible but probably takesabout 50 years.
If ever or to never is actuallyit's 50 years to never.
I mean how many people actuallycreate a sport and then make it
successful so by a year, ian, Isaid to Joe look, you probably

(13:55):
don't want to do this.
Here's the reasons.
You have a brand that's verysuccessful.
Be like Ironman, be thedominant brand.
Have a successful, profitablecommercial business.
Let the sport emerge and evolveover time, because otherwise
you're going to have todismantle your business and
become a non-profit run by thepeople, because it's by and for

(14:19):
the athletes.
So it becomes a democraticprocess as a non-profit and
that's not going to help you asa business.
So he said, okay, fine, we wentand kind of dropped it at that
point.
But pretty quickly I wasgetting calls from other sports
saying we hear you've beenmaking noise about this obstacle
thing and I said yes, and theysaid well, we're sort of

(14:41):
interested in talking to youabout what could happen and the
triathlon colleague my triathloncolleagues had said it's not a
bad idea and here's one possibleway to do.
It is you start working withother sports and you see this as
quite common.
Actually, if you look atathletics, aquatic cycling,
canoe, they bring sports in thatget on the on-fit program over

(15:05):
time.
So in canoe, as an example, youhave stand-up paddling which
has a foot in surf and a foot incanoe and the canoe version is
racing.
It's the same in cycling, yousaw things like mountain biking
come in 96 and BMX and theseother things start to join in
the existing federations.
Same with athletics over timetriowrunning, mountain running

(15:26):
these things start to join theother international federations.
So I was thinking at that pointoh well, maybe there is a way
to do this.
Past four or nine years to nowand successfully created the
organization, spent the most ofthe previous seven or eight
years building the governancestructure, because that's

(15:47):
critical.
That builds all the stuff thata sport needs to make it safe,
fair, cheap and accessible,which is what the athletes want.
They don't care about theinternational federations.
Most triathletes really don'tknow what World Triathlon is.
To be honest, the athletes inswimming aquatics, the swimming
people for many of them, evenOlympians are not really that

(16:09):
familiar with what FINA isbecause it doesn't really bother
them that much.
It's like hey, I just want tocompete, I want a good race.
You see this in many sports andthat's the same in obstacle.
People go you're not doinganything.
What's going on?
Why do you even need that?
Well, it turns out you actuallydo.
Many, many, many reasons.

(16:29):
The athletes need to berepresented by themselves, by
and for the athletes.
They like things to be safe,fair, cheap and accessible.
That's actual sport.
Just competition, rules forfairness and anti-doping and
good structure, all the stuffthat sports actually need.
But athletes don't know thatand they really don't care until

(16:50):
they get hurt or it costs toomuch or stuff that they really
care about which makes sense.
Here we are, and that's how Igot into obstacle.
Now I'm the president of WorldObscool, the Federal,
international and InternationalSports Obscools, just like the
other ones.
We got approved by Geiss at thetime, which means that the
sports all of them, because it'sunanimous approved World

(17:13):
Obscool to Govern Ninjacompetitions obstacle course
racing and adventure racing.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
How do we define between those two?
What is an adventure raceversus an obstacle race versus a
ninja race?

Speaker 3 (17:31):
Well, good question.
Let's look at it like FINA.
We'll start at the structuralside FINA World Aquatics.
I think there's all theaquatics now.
That's the InternationalFederation that provides all of
the sport stuff for the aquaticsports.
Aquatic sports are swimming,diving, high diving, artistic

(17:54):
swimming, water polo, open waterswimming or marathon swimming,
I think they call it now.
They're the sports withinaquatics and they are common in
that they are aquatic-basedsports.
They're in water.
Canoes are different.
That's on water.
You see the same thing.
You've got lots of stuff thereGreat marathon, canoe, kayak

(18:18):
slalom, wild water, oceanpaddling, stand up and there are
canoe sports.
It's kind of like that In theobstacle world ninja
competitions.
That is a ninja competition.
That's our World Champs from2019.
Today, we build these NinjaWarrior style rigs that look

(18:41):
just like the television showNinja Warrior, which should be
familiar to UK viewers, or mostviewers in the world.
Viewers in 160 countries, forthat matter, are quite familiar
with this.
There's about a billion peoplewatch it on television.
That's the entertainment show.
We work with the IP holders forthe TV shows and we create an

(19:03):
event that is a true, purecompetition with actual
competition rules, and it's anactual race that looks just like
the television shows.
That is a ninja competition.
It's basically obstacles.
A lot of them are hangingobstacles where I mean like
hanging off something.
It's a head-to-head racecompetition.
There's various competitionswithin the sport, but the one

(19:24):
that we're focusing on at themoment is a race.
The one behind me was quite big, considerably bigger than 100
meter course.
You can see the crowd is quitebig.
That was about 100,000 peopleover a few days.
Quite, a few people like towatch it.
That's a ninja, obscure course.
Racing is running based.
It's running with obstacles,run obstacle, run obstacle.

(19:49):
Another UK, very familiar UKathletes because in the modern
context it came out of England.
It's a British sport at itsroots.
It actually dutch as wellbecause there's another race in
parallel competition calledSurvival Roam, which is quite
similar, the one that whatpeople do today looks a lot like

(20:10):
Tough Guy.
Tough Guy is a guy called MrMouse, quite famous in the OCR
world, who in the 1980s createda competition.
That is pretty much how itlooks today in the mud run space
, which is obstacles, andrunning with a lot of mud.
The way we do it we don't havemud.
We might have mud but it'sincidental or it's an obstacle

(20:33):
and we have to be clean.
You can't obscure numbers and afew other things.
We like to be clean.
That creates cultures.
In the UK obstacle courseracing tends to be quite muddy.
The weather helps if you want amuddy race Running through
farmland and stuff, which isvery common.

(20:53):
You do tend to get quite muddyand that's partly to do with the
environment.
That's obstacle course racingrunning with obstacles.
In each sport, because they aresports, they're separate things,
different distances anddisciplines and just like
athletics, in athletics you'vegot lots of disciplines 12 or
something.
Jumps, throws, brints, mouth on.

(21:15):
There's all these differentsport disciplines within
athletics.
Within obstacle course racingwe have 100 meters looks very
much like Ninja, except it'smuch faster as you run.
You've got 400 meters, 800meters, 3k, 5k, 10k, 15k, 21k,
42k, 24 hour.
These are sport events ofobstacle course racing.

(21:39):
Then adventure racing isdifferent again.
Adventure racing has been aroundinternationally since about
1989.
Started with the French race,before that in other ways,
mostly in Australia and NewZealand in the 70s.
But in the modern context itevolved out of an event called
the Regal Watts 1989.
French race put on in NewZealand.

(22:01):
That then was the actual parentof most of the races you see
today.
However, there was a strange andunusual phase when adventure
racing was huge and they hadsprint adventure races, which
you don't really see today.
Sprint adventure races werevery, very big.
They were quite short well liketwo to three hours, but very,

(22:24):
quite short.
They looked a little bit like atriathlon with obstacles, quite
often more like an X-Terror,with obstacles, manufacturer
obstacles, walls, crawls, nets,ropes, ninja grips.
They had all these things inthese races and they were big.
They would cut them off at 900people and they'd fill national
series and they were nationallytelevised in the US at least

(22:46):
lots and lots of prize money.
They were actually obstacleraces, but with other stuff that
you don't see today.
That existed for about 10 yearsand that was typically mountain
bike, canoe running, maybeorienteering and obstacles, and
that was sprint adventure racing.
A lot of people today don'teven really know it existed, but

(23:08):
it was the biggest thingactually in adventure racing.
Today, adventure racing looksmore like a long journey where
you have a map and compass, younavigate your way through All
sorts of stuff could be urban,suburban, typically wilderness
and you just find your wayaround and find checkpoints like
orienteering.
That's the common adventureracing today.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
In a world where I think triathlon is losing quite
a few people to, whether it'sultramarathans, whether it's all
Dax riding.
There's more.
We were interviewing one of theorganizers of the Outlaw series
of triathlons in the UK.
You're saying all of his matesare going off and doing other

(23:53):
things and that's why he'sstruggling to fill events more.
Can you give us an example ofan incredible marathon day?
Sabers of adventure racing.
That would be the iconic onethat people might go to if they
were looking to expand theirhorizons.

Speaker 3 (24:12):
Sure God's Own in New Zealand.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
I'm liking the sound of that already.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Tell us about that.

Speaker 3 (24:20):
It's a contraction of a God's Own country, but it's
actually still G-O-D-Z-O-N-EGod's Own.
It was created by Geico WarrenBates from England.
He emigrated to New Zealand andhe was a world champion
adventure racer from probablymaybe after the end of my career

(24:41):
, so maybe in the year 2010,something like that.
He created God's Own as anevent that truly represented the
culture and ethos of adventureracing.
He did a very good job.
It would be.
I regard it, and I think manydo regard it, as the best
adventure race.
It's beautiful.

(25:03):
It's New Zealand.
Where in New Zealand is it?
Last year?

Speaker 1 (25:08):
North Island, oh, okay, so it moves around it
moves around.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
This is an interesting history because the
Rage O'Wars in 1989, when itfirst created what we know as
expedition racing or adventureracing, it stayed in New Zealand
.
One of the RAF guides on theRage O'Wars, a guy called Jeff

(25:33):
Hunt, borrowed loosely I don'tsay borrowed, but he replicated
almost exactly.
Well, it was exact.
He did an exact replica of theRage O'Wars and kept it in New
Zealand as the RAF startedmoving around.
It went to New Zealand and thenI'm going to say Madagascar and
Costa Rica.
It just went all over the place, all over the world for almost

(25:54):
30 years.
He kept it and called it theSouthern Traverse, because the
original RAF was called theGrand Traverse or the Lagrange
Ravacine.
He kept it as the SouthernTraverse in New Zealand, exactly
the same rules and format.
Then Mark Burnett, anotherBritish guy, everywhere he

(26:15):
replicated it.
He got a license from the Frenchcompany, from a guy called
Giraffe Z, and he called it theEco Challenge.
He had a license for NorthAmerica.
He quickly reneged on that andchanged the format a little bit
to get around the IP and wentfrom five people on a team with
two supports so seven in thefull team down to four, which

(26:36):
was much more practical.
That format stuck and SouthernTraverse borrowed it as well.
But Southern Traverse stuckwith the five and then they
added three and two.
This whole thing stayed in NewZealand.
Godzone is pretty much like agreat grandchild of the Rage
O'Wars, I think all of the whatwe call expedition racers they

(26:57):
really are Godzone.
That's the one.
Do that.
It's fantastic.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
How long does that event last?
If you were to go and doGodzone, do you have to qualify?
Do you need to have a certainexperience in certain areas?
What does it look like ifsomebody wanted to go and do it?
How does it work?

Speaker 3 (27:15):
It acts like it's another good question.
Adventuracing is a loose sport.
It's sort of the nature of it.
It's terrific, in many ways Alittle bit like Obstgracing, but
more so.
In Adventuracing there's nostep for Madelwars.
You can do whatever you want todo.
There's been urban races andcity races and then truly

(27:35):
wilderness expeditions where youcross lots of countries.
I did races where you crossthree countries, map and Compass
, and they would be very long.
Some of them would be a coupleof weeks.
Godzone is, anyone can do it.
There's categories.
There's basically twocategories the people who have
experience and they can do thesethings, meaning you're probably

(27:59):
going to go for five to sevendays probably.
I think the winners typicallyhave four to five days or maybe
a bit longer, then the back ofthe pack.
I don't know what the cutoffsare.
It typically would be 10 daysTypically.
I don't know for sure in thisevent.
If they go that long.
There's costs, of course.
If you have a race course openfor 10 days, that's very

(28:20):
expensive.
Maybe it's a week.
Let's just call it a weekbecause that's usually about
what people can take in time,considering a week of
competition with weekends eitherend.
That's about 10 days.
That gives you ability to getorganized through the
competition.
Wrap it up, it's about a week.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Is that made up of running kayaking?
What would you do in that raceIn?

Speaker 3 (28:47):
New Zealand.
It would be more like rowgaining Maybe not You're using
map and compass, put it that wayLand navigation.
Then kayaking could be raftingas well Whitewater rafting we're
definitely kayaking.
They have very highly developedkayaks in New Zealand Over the

(29:08):
past 40 years.
They've developed these very,very fast boats specifically for
event racing For those who willbe in the race.
You need to rent, borrow orsteal those when you go to New
Zealand.
Mountain biking Probablysomething with ropes.
That's quite common.
Maybe mountaineering Terrain isconducive to all these things,

(29:31):
depending where you are.
If you go to South Island,obviously there's glaciers and
high mountains and things thattrue mountaineering.
The weather can be varied andaggressive Depending on time of
year.
You might see anything fromquite hot conditions in parts of
the country to blizzards andstrong winds and torrential rain
Part of the beauty of thecountry.

(29:52):
It's a lot like the West Coastof Norway.
In many places there's fjordsand steep terrain and mountains
that go to the ocean.
This is what makes New Zealandabsolutely terrific, maybe one
of the most the place foradventure is certainly, isn't it
?
It is.
It's one of the most beautifulcountries on earth, if you like
their beautiful wilderness andfriendly people and good food.

(30:15):
It's great.

Speaker 1 (30:16):
It's like Scotland on steroids, but with slightly
better weather.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
Very much like Scotland.
Before they cut the trees down.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
Did you say that was a team of four that would do
that particular race?

Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yes, in that race it's a team of four with what is
called a support crew orlogistics crew I think it's
unlimited there makes it quitehard to compete as a foreign
athlete because you need to geta local support team.
It's very difficult to waltz inthere bringing your own team
because vehicles, knowing whereto drive and basic stuff like

(30:52):
that.
I've competed in New Zealand afew times, successfully, won a
couple of times, which is, Ithink, the only team to ever do
it like foreign team.
It's very hard to win in NewZealand against Kiwis for many,
many reasons.
One, they're absolutelyfantastic athletes at this.
Then, two, there's all sorts ofthings.
Like most countries, if youcompete on someone else's turf,

(31:13):
it's home field advantage.
It's a big one in New Zealand.
That does sound like becauseyou get to compete against the
best.
I actually mean it.
I think the best athletes areout of New Zealand consistently.
It doesn't mean there aren'tothers that will win out of
other countries.
These days, kiwis tend todominate.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
It does sound like an amazing race, one for the
bucket list for sure.
It sounds like a reallyexciting race to do.
You've got an incredible CV ofa whole wide range of different
world championships and worldrecords and all sorts.
Can you just pick out one thatis your highlight of your
competitive career that you cantell us about and why that was

(31:58):
the highlight?

Speaker 3 (32:00):
First thing that comes to mind 2006,.
Adventure Race WorldChampionships started and
finished in Norway.
I apologize, start and finishin Sweden and went through
Norway.
It was my last race when Iretired.
I knew I was going to retire.
I just hoped it was on a highnote, which it was.

(32:22):
I'm not an athlete who I'm notsomeone who will just keep going
back to something.
I wanted to have a good race.
We had a great team.
It included a guy calledRichard Usher.
I think even today he has thefastest ever Ironman by Kiwi

(32:43):
like seven hours, I can'tremember 750 something and rock.
He'd just come off setting thefastest ever Kiwi time for
Ironman.
He was quite fit.
He was also an Olympian inskiing.
I'll be right back goodbye.
We had an athlete who had justbeaten Lance Armstrong at the
Leadville 100 mountain bike race.

(33:06):
He came from the finish line.
His wife, susan DiMatte,dragged him from the finish line
where he would normally stop,stand and shake everyone's hand
as the winner, because he won itlike nine times.
So he was on our team.
And then we had a worldchampion ex-teacher athlete,
monique Morel.
She won and she was one of hisathletes that said, oh, it

(33:28):
wasn't that good.
I mean, everyone else washaving an off day, but she still
won.
So everyone on the team was aworld champion and Olympian, or
Olympian and or Olympian.
And we came together.
We never raced together.
We knew each other well becausewe had raced in bits and pieces
.
But we had this really talentedteam and Dave Wiens is the
mountain biker Walk up guys avery, very good one and we.

(33:52):
He got diverted by thebombscare in London.
I don't know, oh, it was, itwas actually a.
I think it was an actual bombin London, it's 2006.
He almost didn't make the startline because he got diverted
from going through London anyway, but we finally got to, got to
the start.
We were going to teach him howto do ropes.
He'd never done ropes, so wehad to do it on the fly during

(34:15):
the competition Anyway.
So we had great team.
We're having a lot of fun.
We were crossing the ArcticCircle in August, right before
my birthday.
It was kind of late.
I don't know if it was late orearly, but they were not the
northern lights.
It was great.
There was this beautifulcurtains of green light all over
the place, not quite dark, butnot quite light.

(34:38):
There'd been storms, so therewas sort of rainbow going on,
which was really bizarre,because there was enough light
coming over the horizon to lightup a rainbow.
There were shooting stars,happened to be some sort of
meteor shower, and then we wereaccompanied in archaics by orcas
.
All this stuff was going on, andyou get pretty loopy sometimes

(34:59):
in these races but you don'tquite sleep enough, and we were.
We were pretty far in the leadat that point and so we was.
There's all this stuff's goingon.
I'm looking around and kind ofleaning and, hey guys, is this
real?
Are we seeing all this stuff?
You seeing what I'm seeing?
I'm not sure this is real ornot.
And they're saying, yeah, thisis real, this is crazy stuff.
It's like imagine the bestpossible scenario of something

(35:20):
that you could.
It's like a dream.
It was an actual dream, likeall this stuff's happening.
I'm like, oh my gosh, this iscrazy.
But I did think at that point ohyeah, we're getting a bit sleep
deprived.
We are actually hallucinating,which we were not, but I was
concerned that we might.
So we were a team that slept alot.
People don't know this.
We would tell them hey, youknow how to win sleep more.

(35:42):
Even today, they do theopposite.
They go oh, if we're notsleeping, no, if we're sleeping,
people are passing us, which isnot true, really, anyway.
So my team, like most teams,were not.
We're pretty resistant to theidea of taking big sleep,
especially being in the lead,whereas I have the opposite
opinion, which is well, it'sbacked up by data, but sleep
more and we'll win.

(36:03):
So I said we had this discussionabout how much to sleep.
Being in the lead didn't wantto get passed, so okay, well, it
starts at like we need eighthours sleep.
That's me and then Tim says 10minutes.
So the negotiation ends up atsomething like okay, we'll take
30, 30 minutes, that's plenty.
But I know for well as a sportsmedicine guy that that is

(36:24):
absolutely not enough.
You need to get rest, thenrecovery, then repair, then you
can race again, and that takesat least four hours.
So I set my watch for, okay,I'll set it for 30 minutes, and
I set it for six hours.
And yeah, it was not quite darkand it was not quite light.
So you're not quite sure.
I think at that point it waslight, so you're not quite sure

(36:45):
if it's day or night.
So we found a little hard, founda little island, found a little
heart, went to sleep, got upagain a few hours later.
My team was like, oh, we feelgreat, that was a great 30
minute nap.
And off we went, not knowingthat it had several hours.
And then we, off we went andthey kind of dawned on them as
we're going along that oh, maybewe slept more than we thought.
And then they were getting kindof motivated.

(37:06):
It's like, oh, we're pissed offat you now.
So we got to the transition area, out of the kayaks into onto a
land navigation section and we'dgone from first to eighth and
they were pissed off and highlymotivated.
So, job done, well done.
So off we went and within anhour we passed every other team

(37:28):
and that's how fast you go whenyou sleep.
And then after that the gamewas over because we had slept so
much at that point and everyother team hadn't, because they
were trying to catch us andhadn't slept.
We just had a whole day's.
In my opinion, we were now awhole day ahead, which we
actually were by the finish.
So that's, that was a.
That was a terrific race,beautiful, oh my gosh, it was

(37:49):
gorgeous.
Norway and Sweden are beautifuland Sweden are, like New
Zealand, just delightful.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well, I mean that would definitely that would you
know?
Those sorts of experience wouldsell it to most people,
wouldn't?
I mean that just soundsabsolutely incredible.
But but it's also interestinghow well I know this is a big
debate with ultra runners.
You know, in multi day races,do you?
How much do you sleep?
And yet we've had a good friendof ours, kerry Sutton, came on
here and said basically she waswinning the spine race and then,

(38:17):
as a result of not sleeping,she ended up having to get
pulled off the cliff face,having made stupid decisions but
she wouldn't have made had shewasn't so tired.
So so, absolutely, that makes amakes a lot of sense.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
Lack of sleep is dangerous and very, very
unhealthy.
You accumulate plaque in yourbrain which only gets cleaned
out.
It's kind of like apheloussclerosis in your heart.
It only gets cleaned out withsleep.
But the science has finallycaught up with it.
We will, we will look at AirForce studies to see what they
were doing to operate, you know,stuff that can block the

(38:50):
country, the world, carryingweaponry.
That was incredibly deadly.
How did they do it so theydon't blow up the wrong thing or
you know, or die or crash orwhatever.
And there the data out of theAir Force is quite good.
So we followed that as ageneral rule, which was the
general rule.
If you don't get at least fourhours of actual sleep in the 24

(39:13):
hour period, it gets incrediblydangerous and very, very
unhealthy.
In fact, if you keep yourselfawake and they did this in
horrible, nasty war clinicalstudies with with prisoners they
die.
If you don't sleep enough, youwill die and it's quite quick
and it takes like I think it'sabout a week for some people

(39:35):
will die without actual sleep.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, I think you die quicker from a lack of sleep
than you do from a lack of food,don't you?

Speaker 3 (39:42):
Much quicker.
Yeah, you can go for a verylong time without food, but you
will die.
I think the world record for inthe Guinness World Record of
sleeping where they actually napso they're not truly staying
awake the whole time, is many,many, many days.
But that's not, you know.
It's like in a rocking chair,kind of eyes open but sort of
napping.

(40:02):
You can't actually stay awake.
In fact, I had such bad longterm problems from prolonged
lack of sleep over about 20years of racing that my memory
had completely disintegrated.
For short term I couldn'tremember things I couldn't.
Fortunately our brains areplastic and you can repair them.

(40:25):
Took me about five years torepair my brain.
My wife was quite concerned andmany of our spouses were
concerned about the cognitiveproblems that were having from
lack of sleep and we were highlymotivated because we were
chasing.
I had a very solid seven figurecareer in racing, so
financially was successful, buthealth wise it was damaging and

(40:48):
that was one reason I decided toquit.
I've had enough faces.
I will die if I keep takingthis.
That's what I thought.
I was probably right.
Probably would have made a dumbmistake and died.
But the cognitive problems arereal and that's like the RAM
people doing RAM.
The data does not support whatthe practice is, which is not
sleeping, doesn't support it.
We looked at doing RAM at onepoint but there's no money in it

(41:11):
so we didn't.
But we looked doing it as ateam and ran the numbers on
speed and sleep and these sortof things and it turns out that
if you look at it on a datadriven basis like a scientist,
the way they do RAM today withlack of sleep, it's not the
fastest way to do it.
They think it is Same inadventuring today.

(41:34):
I'd say 99% of the teams arestill not sleeping enough.
It's hard to sleep becauseyou're cognitively saying it's
like in a triathlon oh, if Idrop my water bottle, do I pick
it up?
And most people won't pick itup, but the outcome is probably
bad because it could, let's say,60 seconds to stop and pick up
the bottle.
What's the outcome if you don't, might not finish the race.

(41:57):
Bad outcome, but it's hard todo.
Like, how many people actuallystop and pick up their bottle
Like, oh, I stopped, I droppedmy bottle, I just keep going?
Then they get dehydrated andtheir performance drops and the
race is over.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
Do you think that there needs to be some sort of
thinking about sleep?
So I was just thinking aboutthings like certain ultra races
where you've got to take on,you've got to collect a certain
amount of water, even if youdecide you want to pull that
away.
Is there, are there any rulesat the moment, or is there a
responsibility somewhere thatthe federations are then telling

(42:31):
athletes that they have to takea certain number of hours over
a certain number of days, forexample of sleep?
Is that something you'vethought about or has been
thought about?
Does it exist in terms of rulesanywhere?

Speaker 3 (42:44):
Advent racing is not regulated.
It's a somewhat sad storyactually.
In 1997, there had been a fewfatalities in advent racing and
this was by the third time.
It was in the ESPN X Games.
So I competed in the X Gamesand successfully meddled each

(43:06):
time, but there'd beenfatalities.
And the third one in 97 inMexico during the competition, a
near fatality and the girlended up dying.
She'd been a Norwegian kayakteam world level competitor.
We were invited teams, everyonewas a truly competitive athlete
, olympian, world champion, thatkind of thing.
This girl got heat stroke andthen ended up dying.

(43:32):
And by that point I'm thinkingthis is not okay.
We've had quite a fewfatalities.
Any fatality is not okay.
We need to do something aboutit.
So I had the idea, with a fewother people, to create an
international governing body tocreate exactly this safety
guidelines at least to preventdeaths, make it safer that's

(43:54):
what sport does right, safer andfairer and more accessible.
So that was the idea in 97.
I pursued that until I retired,so for 10 years.
But then actually, frankly, themoney went out of the sport and
it kind of took a massive noves.
So I became almost invisiblefor quite a long time when all
the big shows disappeared andthe money and the advertising

(44:14):
and whatnot, and then there wasreally no reason to have
governance.
But then the idea came up againwith Joe DeSena, and the old
school thing is we were bothadventurers and we love the
sport.
So you thought, hey, let's seeif we can resurrect.
Well, I thought, let's see ifwe can resurrect it and create
some structure that is trulybeneficial for the community.
So have the community come inand stand up for themselves and

(44:35):
be representative governance,which is what sport is by and
for the athletes.
We can help by providing somestructure and safety.
I have very good safetyguidelines, I thought, which
still exists today, but thoseare not formalized.
The community is divided inadventurizing.
It's very, very, very small,but there's also strong
commercial interests that trulywant to control it and they've

(44:59):
created these kind of crazynarratives that the sports are
trying to take it over andwrestle it from the.
It's all nonsense, but the ideaof having safety guidelines,
including sleep, is definitelyon my agenda.
But I'm one person with someideas who loves the sport.
But the sport is too dividedright now for any sort of unity.

(45:20):
We provide it.
I give the community anythingthey want, because I've got a
library of useful informationthat is quite good for things
like how do you keep the sportsafe?
Many, many things go into safetyand the sleep one is important.
Riding at night right On aFriday, saturday morning early
in the morning is a good idea.

(45:41):
To ride on a road when peoplehave been drinking on a Friday
night, not a good idea.
It's a basic safety guideline.
Don't let people ride on theroad on a Saturday morning like
early in the morning, midnightto early morning, because you
could get taken out by a cardistracted driver.
Whether they're distracted fromalcohol or texting doesn't
matter and it's happened, ithappens actually, it not has it.

(46:02):
There are fatalities from that.
So event producers doing that'sa terrible idea but they're not
really thinking like that.
I think like that.
One of my strange and unusualexpertise is there's legal
forensic work advising war firmson injury cases from kind of
crazy stuff happening, and so Ihave acute awareness of risk and

(46:22):
that's part of it.
It's a good question,absolutely needs it, but it
requires the community kind ofaccept the idea that it's a
useful, beneficial thing to havesome sort of governance that
works with experience.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
And I know you wanted to ask about the nutrition side
of how that differs, so I'lllet you take the nutrition
question.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Yeah, I mean, I guess it's, it's.
It's huge, isn't it?
Because I was.
I was thinking, you know, froman ultra running perspective,
does it look like that?
But then you've talked aboutsome of the ninja events being
sprint events.
You know this is, this is ahuge different.
You know types of nutritionthat you're going to need for
different things, but how, howdo you feel that?

(47:07):
I guess nutrition differs fromdoing something like an ultra
running event or an Ironman sortof distance events, because
these are, you know, some ofthese events are talking about a
multi day.
So what did what did you dowhen you were racing?
How did that work?
Did you have teams taking, youknow, support crew taking the
food for you?
Were you carrying stuff andthat includes, you know, fluids

(47:28):
and things as well?
How did how did that all work?

Speaker 3 (47:32):
But yeah, like you pointed out, it depends on the
distance and intensity of thecompetition.
Like athletics, if you'reHussain Bolt doing 100 meters,
completely different nutritionprogram for training and
competition to a trial runner oran ultra runner.
That is totally different.
But Ironman is in aninteresting space.

(47:54):
People can do Ironman so fast.
The pace they're doing isinsane, the marathon times
they're doing in an Ironman, acompetitive Ironman time.
So if you look at this crazy,crazy intensity that requires
completely different nutritionfrom an ultra runner for pretty

(48:16):
much anyone, in fact I would sayanyone.
The top ultra runners on earthare not doing Ironman intensity
competitions because a very fastIronman, say eight hours, so
someone doing an eight hourIronman, the intensity of that
is like true fast marathon paceor road racing, cycling pace or
just a 2.4 mile swim pace orgoing forward ofa K swim pace.

(48:39):
They are very, very fast pacesbut ultra runners don't do that.
Ultra runners are not running a240 marathon pace in an ultra.
They can't.
Physiologically you can't do it.
So get to 50K.
Now we're talking about kind ofevent racing speeds.
Get to 50K, which is the speeddrops considerably from running

(49:02):
a marathon to running a 50K andthe distance is only 8K
difference.
That now.
Now you start to talk aboutdifferent nutrition requirements
and the way we did it is sotruly ultra distance, with
multiple sports and event racingfor the long stuff, not the
sprints, but for the long stuffPretty high fat, low

(49:24):
carbohydrate for training andracing, and the reason is you
cannot go off carbohydrate as afuel source for long endurance
successfully.
You see it in Ironman, actuallysee it in many triathlons and
distance races.
People have bought into theidea promoted by nutrition sport

(49:46):
nutrition companies.
They have to have and I saw anumber once like 70 calories per
hour carbohydrate to compete.
Consider this if you're doingyou get to Kona, you're doing
the Ironman Kona, and to getthere you're pretty quick.
So you've got a pretty decentpace going for everything swim,

(50:07):
bike and run.
When you're working, especiallyin the heat, as you're producing
energy to move, your blood isdiverted to your working muscles
and because it's hot, do yourskin to cool down.
Do you think you can digestanything when you have no blood
in your stomach and your gut?
No, so how do you compete?

(50:30):
How do the top athletes, thebetter athletes, the successful
athletes, get through that eventin probably, on average, 12
hours or more so 12 hours, whichis a decent time.
How do you do that for 12 hoursif you can't really eat
anything?
Well, turns out, you have a lotof energy on your body.

(50:51):
So the training effect is, tocompete successfully is to
access stored body fat, becausewe have a lot of it and,
provided you a sub-threshold, ifyou train for it, you can get
really good at it.
And this is where I competed andI know other athletes did the
same thing.
I know triathletes who did thisMark Arlen, paul, the newbie,

(51:16):
fraser.
Most of the good athletes woulddo this, not really telling
anyone, but you just, you'd see,are they really eating that
much?
No, you know why.
Because if you're doing your240, if you're like Craig
Alexander or whoever doing a 240triathlon at the end of Iron
man, do you think you're reallygoing to eat anything?
Yeah, no, why?

(51:37):
Because you can't absorb it.
A little bit, yeah, a littlebit here and there.
And that's how we did it forlong endurance.
It gets even more important forlong endurance because you just
can't eat.
I mean, people try At a verylow level.
When you're just kind ofwalking along, hiking along,
yeah, heart rate's low, but ifyou're actually racing?
No, because your heart rate'stoo high and you're diverting
blood to other places that youcan't digest.
You see it, there are pools ofvomit in areas in Iron Man's

(52:04):
where people eat, they eat, theydrink, they eat, they drink,
they eat, they drink, notabsorbing.
Throw it up.
Eat, they drink, they eat, theydrink, they eat, they throw it
up.
You see it in their belly,right, you kind of got that
Gatorade belly, why no?
Absorbing?
And they throw it up and do itagain, and do it again.
I see it in ultramarathons too.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
With the fat adaption conversation and I'm interested
to hear your thoughts on this,Clare, as well.
My understanding is it is morerecent research is that that
works really well for someathletes, but some athletes not
so much.
So becoming fat adapted becomesreally quite challenging for
some people.
Have you got any thoughts onthat, Ian?

(52:42):
I don't know how much I do, Istill have five strong thoughts
on that.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
So share please.
So part of this is I have mymasters in sports medicine and a
lot was to do with nutrition.
I've worked, I've got a goodI'd say.
He's a friend of mine andcolleague, timothy Noakes.
He pushed, timothy Noakes,created the first carbohydrate
fuel for athletes, called leptin, back in the 70s I think, and
he pushed the idea ofcarbohydrate loading and fuel

(53:10):
for athletes for decades.
But then at a conference wastold by, I think, some Swedish
and Norwegian scientists that hewas wrong and, being a good
scientist, he wrote a book aboutit, challenging beliefs or
something like that.
He, scratchy, said well, Idon't believe it, but you know,
I'm a scientist and I'm going tosee what's going on here.
The science is very, very old,by the way.

(53:31):
This is not new at all.
Science has been around forbest part of a century and fully
supported.
There's another book about thistoo.
It's called the Big FatSurprise.
Big Fat Surprise.
It's all about.
If you haven't read it, it'sabsolutely.
It's a fantastic read,absolutely science based.
Many, many, many goodreferences, of which there are a

(53:55):
huge weight of evidence aboutthis.
Let's go back to what a homosapien does in a natural
environment and how humans haveevolved over, let's say, three
million years, but actual homosapiens for 100,000.
In a natural environment inEngland, what carbohydrate can

(54:16):
you eat without industrializedfood or agriculture?
Most of the time, what can youactually eat?
Like cereals like potatoes or no, that's agriculture.
Oh, I see.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
And potatoes have arrived from South America,
we're talking about naturalthings like berries that are
growing in the hetero, exactly.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
So for most of humans' existence, 100,000 years
or so and three million before,that is homo sapiens of some
description.
What would you actually eat inEngland?
What can you find scavengingaround?

Speaker 2 (54:49):
It depends what time of year, but this time of year
well, actually towards the endof the year you get blackberries
and things like that that arein the hetero, that you could
pick and eat and how long wouldthey last for?
Not very long.

Speaker 3 (55:01):
So the rest of the year, so the rest of the year.
Yeah, let's say you have amonth to pick berries.
What do you do for the other 11months?

Speaker 2 (55:09):
Survive on protein and fat from animal sources,
exactly.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
So how humans evolve.
This is human biology, this ismammalian biology, this is our
gut.
To look at the length of ahuman digestive tract and what
they can actually digest andwhat actually works Fat and
protein.
Very, very similar to a, not anungulate, not a vegan animal

(55:35):
like an ungulate meaningsomething with horse, so
something like a cow or a goator a horse or something, if we
were.
Let's take the vegan argumentit does go back to competition,
by the way, but the veganargument is you will be
healthier as a vegan, and I'dsay for most humans that is true
for a while, because they'recutting crap out of the diets
and eating good stuff.

(55:56):
But can you survive, as a veganTurns out?
You cannot, because you can'tcut complete proteins out of
your diet and survive.
You can't cut fat out of yourdiet and survive.
You know what you can cut outof your diet and survive or
maybe even get healthier MobsCarbohydrate.

(56:16):
It has zero nutrition.
Carbohydrate, now what it comesin, often has nutrition, which
is good, like berries, but thecarbohydrate itself, which is
actually glucose in yourbloodstream, has zero
nutritional value and istolerated very well by humans
because we lay it down as storedfat to survive for the other 11
months and we don't get it inthe national environment.
We tolerate it, but it'sactually toxic.

(56:38):
If you look at the role ofcarbohydrate in the human diet,
it has a use for survival, toput on fat to survive, and it's
tolerable, but most of thecommon things you find killing
people, actually killing peopleatherosclerosis, diabetes, this

(56:58):
kind of stuff.
Where does that come from andhow do you stop a diet?
Someone with diabetes havingdiabetes don't eat carbohydrate.
It's pretty simple.
Anyway, it's a whole nother.
It's kind of weird to thinkwe've taken it.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
It's a massive area, is it not?
It is a massive area.
Yeah, the debate oncarbohydrate versus fat, I mean,
I think the important thingjust thinking about the
listeners as well is that youBecause we have carbohydrates
and fats and proteins in ourdiet that you've got to be able
to train to adapt yourself to beable to take on fats as a fuel

(57:35):
and use your fats as a fuel aswell.
Yeah, so did you train yourselfto do that?
Did it take very long for youto be able to adapt to use fats
as a fuel?

Speaker 3 (57:48):
No, it's actually very quick.
The reason is it is the defaultenergy pathway.
We're talking about energypathways now.
Is it the oxidative energypathway or not?
You're being the KREBS cycle.
Which the KREBS cycle, by theway.
People say, oh, it's gotglucose in it, you must need to
eat it.
No, it's not true.
You create the glucose from fat.
This is the fat pathway, it'snot the oxidative part.
You want the right energypathway and it is the default

(58:12):
one.
That's what most humans in thenational environment do for 11
months of the year is basicallystored fat.
So people get it wrong.
You eat fat to burn fat.
No, you burn it off your body.
It's very uncomfortable tocompete consuming fat in a
dietary sense.
It's not eating fat and burningit, it's burning it off your

(58:33):
body.
As to if people get it wrong,it's like oh, I'm going to eat
some butter and use that for myfueling my race Bad idea, I mean
, butter is delicious, but usingit as a fuel while racing at
any sort of intensity is aterrible idea because you
probably can't digest it.
What they don't understand isthat you're burning your stored
fat and you get really, reallygood at it.

(58:54):
It's mobilization of free fattyacids.
So mobilizing stored fat isreally what it is.
There's lots of ways to do it.
You do it all night, everyonedoes it all night, but they know
it or not.
They're doing it all nightbecause they're fasting at night
.
And you can push that fastingmore and more and more until
it's habitual.
And I would do this to this day.

(59:15):
I've probably been doing it for30 years.
When I was competing, I'd trainfor eight hours a day and I
would get up in the morning andI would train and drink some
water and I would train.
So I'd be fasted already.
I would have already fasted foreight hours.
Then I'd go and train foranother four to eight hours.
So now I'm 12 to 16 hours inwithout eating Super comfortable

(59:36):
In fact, to this day.
I do not like eating in themorning.
Don't like it, it'suncomfortable.
I'll have a cup of coffee or acup of tea or something, but
that's it.
And then by mid-afternoon I'llstart to get a little peckish
and start to eat something.
And I've stayed lean.
I'm the same way.
There was, when I was inuniversity, very similar body

(59:57):
composition to when I was inuniversity, and that's dietary
People go.
I've heard this one from someof the nutrition companies Eat
what you want.
Or they say eat what you want,just work out and work out off
your body.
Well, good luck Again.
The numbers are completelywrong, because it's super easy
to eat 4,000 calories in foodtoday.

(01:00:19):
Super easy.
How long do you have to run toburn that off?

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
A long time yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
About nine calories per mile.
So 4,000, no, sorry, 100.
About 100.
So 40 miles.
You've got to run 40 miles toburn that off.
You can eat it easily, but howmany people are going to go run
40 miles to burn it off again?
That's nonsense.
Not going to do that it's acrazy talk.
I mean, if you're an Ironmantraining, sure of course you're
doing that in most days.
But, how many people actuallydo that, and is it good for you?

(01:00:48):
No, terrible idea.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Yeah, it is interesting, isn't it?
Because I think I definitelyeat more since training for
Ironmans and throughout thattime I've been losing weight
because of the training.
But equally, when I hear thelevel of training that you're
doing and how long you'refasting throughout the day, I
think that would feel verychallenging to me at the moment.

(01:01:14):
It's habit too.

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
So the default energy pathway is not through the
carbohydrate cycle.
It's not, which makes ituncomfortable to make any switch
.
Once you habituate tocarbohydrate intake and burning
carbohydrate you kind of getit's like.
I think the most common thingpeople would know about would be
the marathon bonk.
At 20 miles they go oh, I onlyget 20 or 18 or 20 miles and

(01:01:40):
then I have this severe bonk.
That's because they ran out ofstored glycogen and then not
accessing fat and that.
But for someone like me, I eatnothing, I go out and I just run
the whole thing and I feelcompletely comfortable.
I can do that for a marathondistance, anything, no cycling
or whatever.
I can do that quite comfortablyand not eat, because I'm

(01:02:03):
habituated to storing my storedfat as fuel, which is our
default.
And that's why, when you get todo it, go through the
uncomfortable phase ofre-adapting to the energy
pathway.
Not only is it easy, it's notjust easy, it's like only thing
you want to do.
Nutrition varies wildly becauseif you're the sprint athlete,

(01:02:25):
let's say you're doing a oneminute effort or a 10 second
effort, fueling and nutritionand training completely
different from the longendurance stuff.
Let's say a sprint triathlon,different fueling mechanism.
Because they're so short, youare over anaerobic threshold.
If you're competitive, it'slike a 5K effort, that kind of
effort, or 10K from 100 meters,which is fully anaerobic, to 200

(01:02:51):
, 400, 800, 1500, 3k, 5k theenergy mechanisms change.
So having those kind of effortssprint triathlon is a good
example because your efforts arevery short.
Doing a 5K run is absolutelynot a marathon.
If you're a really good athlete, you're probably at least 15%

(01:03:14):
anaerobic.
If you're really good Now, youare just glycogen.
And for the first minute or soyou've blood sugar.
That changes everything.
The transition era changes ittoo.
During that minute, or whateverit is in the transition, you
should probably eat something asclose to glucose as possible,

(01:03:37):
because it goes straight intoyour bloodstream and that
changes everything.
If anyone was doing that forsure.
You're going to have adifferent fueling program and
you're going to have differenttraining.
It's just a different Same withyour Ironman training.
You're not running marathons.
You might be doing bricks,which are quite long, but your

(01:03:57):
shorter sessions, like poolsessions, are different.
Again, you burn all yourglycogen in your pool session
and then you eat a ton of itbecause you want to replenish it
so you can do it again.
And if you don't, you're notgoing to do that overnight
eating fat and protein.
That day you have to eatcarbohydrate and a lot of it
Absolutely Brilliant.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
That's what people get misused.

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
They say oh, he's that fat guy for some things
yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
You know what?

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
We're going to do something shorter and more
intense.
You'd better have the carbs,because otherwise you will crash
and you won't be able to train.
Yeah, yeah, no that's brilliant.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
That's really, really good advice, thank you.
So one of the things that we doon this podcast is get the
previous guest to ask the nextguest a question without knowing
who that is going to be.
So our previous guests for Willand Rayah Usher, who run
precision coaching, and theirquestion, or Rayah's question,

(01:04:54):
was what tech has had thegreatest impact for you in your
sport?
Tech, what tech?
As in technology, Technology.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Let's define what my sport is.
Okay, so until 2007, it wasevent racing, and since then it
went back to triathlon.
It actually started as atriathlete around the same time
as event racing.
So you can pick technology fromeither in that case From almost
anything these days.
Well, for the past 10 years it'sbeen obstacle stuff and now
mostly ninja stuff.
In ninja.

(01:05:26):
No tech to speak of, I wouldsay smart watch.
The reason is I can looselyfollow time quite useful Time,
heart rate, distance, elevations, things that are kind of useful
for me as a I don't know, I'mgoing to say an enthusiastic

(01:05:46):
recreational athlete.
These days it's just kind ofnice to go out and kind of know
what I've been doing and that'sjust kind of conformational, but
I like it.
That has the biggest effect onme today because it's a
motivator too.
It's like, oh, have I done thattoday?
And if my watch says oh, no,then I'll head out the door and

(01:06:10):
helps me get out the door, whichI want to do, but I get buried
at my desk.

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
But it doesn't sound like you're massively motor
driven by the technology, soWill's follow up question to
that is what other piece ofequipment or service would have
the biggest impact onperformance?
My bad.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
I'm going to talk about what I do today.
The piece of equipment thatwould be most useful for me is a
pull-up bar.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
Oh, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:06:43):
Yes, on a pull-up bar you can do many things, not
just pull-ups.
A pull-up bar, you can hang.
This is the ninja stuff.
In an obstacle sense, there's alot of what we call hanging
obstacles, ones where you swingoff.
On a bar.
You can do many, many, manythings.
You can do dead hangs, you cando static hangs, you can do
swinging hangs, you can dopull-ups.

(01:07:05):
You can do all sorts ofdifferent moves like calisthenic
moves and other things thathelp you grip and your movements
through any obstacle.
So, a very simple pull-up barthere's a good one out here.
You can pull-up, mate, by theway, it's just a free-standing
thing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
Oh, fantastic.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
Yeah, you can just put it in your back garden or
something, or in your housemaybe, so a pull-up bar very
simple.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
Brilliant Two simple things, which is really good.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
One of the other questions that we love to ask on
this podcast is bookrecommendations.
Now, you've already given us acouple actually, tim Noakes is
one and the big fat surprise butare there any other books that
you find yourself recommending,in any area of life, that you
found really helpful for you?

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
Sure, there's a book called why we Sleep.
Oh that's a brilliant book.
Yeah, you guys know it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
Yes, that is a very, very good book, but what did you
take from that?
Why do you pick that book?

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
It's important for health and longevity and not
killing people.
The Dr Matthew Walker, who's asmart guy.
There was very little scienceand data around actual sleep why
and how.
Now that's become.
It's a real thing now.
One of the things that takehome from his book was the data
around daylight savings.

(01:08:31):
Yeah, if you guys will rememberthis, the biggest data that's
and it's compelling because it'sbig data.
Now this is real numbers nowwith true statistics and actual
probability.
That one hour time change causesa staggering number of deaths

(01:08:51):
in all countries that have itevery year.
When the clock changes so thatyou get one hour less sleep, all
cause mortality goes throughthe roof.
All cause mortality meanspeople dying from anything and
everything Heart attack, carcrashes, falling off a roof All

(01:09:13):
cause mortality goes.
It's a staggering change fromone hour change because it takes
a few weeks to readjust.
For that one hour it's like jetlag, but for hundreds of
millions of people.
Now you can track the data.
That was compelling for me.
I'm curious, I'm skeptical.
So, as a science guy, I'malways curious but also

(01:09:34):
skeptical.
It's like the fat thing.
I was very skeptical about it,but curious, just like Timothy
Noakes.
Then read the books, saw thedata, checked the studies
checked the studies checked allthe stuff, I went, yeah, they're
kind of right, not just kind oflike really right by the way.
So big fat surprise why wesleep.

(01:09:55):
Water is another onewaterlogged.
That's a good one, timothyNoakes waterlogged.
I was just going through thiswith my wife, who's got a
podcast.
She's going on about hydration.
Hydration absolutelynecessarily keeps us fit,
healthy, happy, not dead.
How many deaths fromdehydration have there Are there

(01:10:20):
in the scientific literaturefrom athletic events.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
Not as many as hyponatremia.

Speaker 3 (01:10:27):
Ah, good answer.
Any guesses to how many actualdeaths?

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
I don't know Zero.
Oh, let me go.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
How many from hyponatremia in the United
States Is a good one.
In the United States, how manypeople die from hyponatremia
each year?
Well, hang on, let's look at itanother way.
How many people arehospitalized?
How many people have it?
How many people hospitalizedand how many people die from
hyponatremia?

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
No idea.

Speaker 3 (01:10:51):
It's a hard one to guess, so it was sort of
rhetorical.
50,000 people are hospitalizedin the United States from
hyponatremia.
Every year Six percent die.
Wow 3,000 deaths a year.
Hyponatremia.

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
And yet nobody dies from dehydration.

Speaker 3 (01:11:08):
Not one incident in the scientific literature of
people dying from dehydrationduring athletic competitions
never happened.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
Wow yeah.
I have heard about that bookbefore, but never read it, and
so I'm going to add it to myreading list because that
Challenging beliefs.

Speaker 3 (01:11:24):
Yeah, another one, timothy Noakes.
Yes, challenging beliefs.
This one's more about the fatand carbohydrate.
It was the first book about it.
Fat and carbohydrate,challenging beliefs.
What you can dive into hisstuff, it's fantastic.
So I continue to wrap youendlessly with ideas that popped

(01:11:44):
into my head about books.
Save the time.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
I love an ever-expanding reading list, but
we could probably talk aboutbooks for another good, another
hour as well.
But, Ian, it's been absolutelyfascinating getting you on the
podcast.
I've really enjoyed hearingabout a side of endurance world
and sport that is completelydifferent to anything that I've
done before but really doessound very exciting.

(01:12:09):
So I'm definitely going to dosome more exploring on this,
particularly the adventureracing.
I think it sounds fantastic.
I just want to finish off withone question that just struck me
as so with triathlon.
We understand the healthbenefits for doing it, and
whether you take it to theextreme, whether those continue,

(01:12:30):
is a good question.
But where do you see the healthbenefits?
Somebody that's getting into asport purely to be the
healthiest they can be.
Is there any science?
I'm guessing from theconversation there's science
around whether the obstacleracing is better for you than
just sort of straightforwardendurance.
So what's the science aroundthat?

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):
I don't think there is science around obstacle
racing and I don't think there'sscience around adventure racing
for health benefits Anecdotallyno, I'm not going to say
anecdotally, I'm doing any sportif they're moving more.
There is science around that.
And standing actually is a lotmore science around that,

(01:13:14):
standing versus sitting.
If you just get off your ass,get out of your chair, whether
it's standing at your desk, andit looks like you're standing,
yep, yep, exactly, yeah, so Iditched my chair.
It was another Timothy Nookthing.
It arrived out of work.

(01:13:34):
I was working with him in SouthAfrica, at Cape Town, at the
University of Sports Science inthe South African.
We were talking about sittingand standing and increasingly,
at these medical conferences andother things, you see people
not sitting.
The scientists just understandthis was 15 years ago, maybe

(01:13:54):
longer they would be.
People would be standing aroundthe sides of the seating.
They weren't sitting in thechairs and I would scratch them
ahead and start asking a fewpeople and they said oh yeah,
the data's in Because thescience knows before.
It's like climate change thescientists knew decades ago what
was going on, but they'rereally conservative, but they
just start doing what they knowthey believe to be true.

(01:14:17):
This is a whole otherdiscussion.
What you believe to be true butwhat is actually true.
And scientists have thisunfortunate habit of being
scientific about everything.
We're not going to say that.
We know they do in their heartand they believe.
This is the same with thesitting and standing thing.

(01:14:37):
15 years ago the scientists andthe medical people knew in
their core, they knew it wastrue Sitting is catastrophically
bad for humans.
One minute this is.
It'll take one minute off yourlife for every hour you sit.
For most humans in our world,in the industrialized world,

(01:15:01):
it's 10 years off your life bysitting.
You sit for breakfast.
You sit in your car.
You sit in the office.
You sit in your car.
Again, you sit at your diningtable.
You sit on the couch, you sit,you sit, you sit, you sit, you
sit.
Homeosapiens, going back to theevolutionary thing don't do that
.
Don't, even in agriculturalsocieties.

(01:15:21):
No sitting, very rare.
The evolutionary humans don'tsit.
They move or they rest or theychase something.
Not doing that, being an athlete, is a big part of the solution.
Stand up at your desk and ifyou have one, and move a lot.
Moving is not racing, buttraining at long endurance is

(01:15:43):
actually perfect, because ifyou're not doing high intensity
which you shouldn't be, becauseyou should be doing long, slow,
endurance stuff, that's superhealthy.
And you're moving all the time,that's great.
Whether it's an obstacle raceor an Ironman or jogging around
the block, if you're moving,that's good.
That's all you need to know,which goes back to one very big

(01:16:05):
thing which I'll leave everyonewith the purpose of sport.
Why?
Why?
Well, simple answer Make betterhumans.
That's what sport does.
Making better humans throughsport.
That's our actual motto atWorld Obscool.
But it's true, it's like the onpeak movement making better
people.
That's it.
That's the purpose.

(01:16:26):
That's lots and lots of thingsMental, physical, emotional,
cultural, societal.
You develop communities, whichis like blue zone living
communities.
That's what sport is.
You have a community ofathletes you do stuff with and
it's fantastic because they'reyour friends and that helps you
live longer and happier.
That's sport.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
Brilliant.
Well, on that note, I thinkthat is a fantastic way to round
up it.
Like you say, you become theaverage of the people you hang
out with.
Essentially, the more you cancreate that community around the
sport, the better you will beand the better the world will be
.
Fantastic, Ian, it's been anabsolute pleasure getting to
understand a little bit moreabout the world of obstacle

(01:17:06):
racing, ninja racing and theadventure racing Also.
We've ended up going down somedifferent avenues that I didn't
expect to explore and quite asmuch depth, which has been
really fascinating.
Thank you very much.
I've got no doubt that everyonehas taken a huge amount from
this.

Speaker 3 (01:17:28):
Well, I hope everyone's skeptical about it.
And, charlie Claire, thank youvery much, it's been my pleasure
.
Happy to jump on again anytime.
Talk about anything you want.
Food, not food, gardening,sailing Very happy.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
Good conversation around coffee is always good.

Speaker 3 (01:17:44):
Coffee sounds good.
Jump into my second cup.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
If you want to find out more about Aion, the best
place to head is toaionadamsoncom, or on Facebook
is aionaadamson and Instagramalso aionaadamson.
If you like what we do at theTribeathlon podcast, you've got

(01:18:11):
to register for Tribe Talk.
It's an email that comes outevery two weeks packed full of
everything to do with swim, bikeand run, but also nutritional
help, business coaching and awhole lot more.
Whether that's books, videos,ted Talks, apps or technologies.
It's packed full of ideas thatcan help improve your sport,

(01:18:32):
your life and your business.
So register for it attribeathloncom and you'll be
sure that every two weeks, yourinbox is full of some amazing
ideas and resources to improveyour life.
So what did you make of thatinterview with Aion?

Speaker 2 (01:19:00):
I kind of knew a little bit about adventure
racing, Didn't really know muchabout what the difference was
between OCR and all thedifferent levels of obstacle
racing that there is.
So when we were talkingabsolutely right, I was thinking
right, how could I do this?
What race am I going to do?
But I think, as his stories gotdeeper in terms of one of them

(01:19:24):
was to, and the Antarctic wasit- Through the Arctic Circle, I
think the Arctic.
Circle.
I was just thinking.
And then I was just thinkingactually you need a real
experienced team to start doingthose things.
But yeah, again some amazingstories.
And yeah, from being an athletewinning things, being a
triathlete and then going intodoing these obstacle races, yeah

(01:19:47):
, amazing.
What did you think?
I'm sure your mind was alsothinking the same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I love the idea of this.
This sounds like brilliant funthat God's own race straight
onto my bucket list.
I just think.
And when he described that hislast race, which was the one
through Scandinavia that wentthrough the Arctic Circle, I
think, where you've got thenorthern lights and the kind of
like, he's just like, oh wait,and the orcas, he had me at the

(01:20:17):
northern lights and then hementioned the orcas and I was
like that's it.
That just sounds absolutelyincredible.
So, yeah, what a brilliantconversation to understand about
a whole different world.
So I mean, I expected us to betalking more about, yeah,
basically like tough mothers andninja stuff and I can see is

(01:20:40):
kind of like like great fun, butthose adventure races sound
like an incredible thing.

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
Yeah, it's all it.
Also, it almost seemed likekind of like the gym version or
a smaller version that lots ofpeople could, could join into.
You know, in terms of thingslike the ninja, for example, two
things that actually I don'teven know where I'd start to get

(01:21:08):
a team together, or what do Ineed to learn to actually get
there and what equipment do Ineed, you know?
So it was both like from eachend of the scale, wasn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:21:15):
It was, and I did try and get my team together out of
my posse.
And as soon as I mentionedkayaking, I think they all just
sort of ran away in the oppositedirection.
But but like to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):
I would absolutely do it.
Whatever we need to learn,let's, let's, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
Excellent, excellent.
So that's two people.
So I did look at God's ownafterwards and God's own needs
to be a team of four to be toqualify, to be in with a chance
of actually winning something,which is not that we're going to
have any chance of that but youhave to have at least one
female within that.
But in 2024, it finishes in theMarlborough region, so it

(01:21:50):
starts in Marlborough region,which is obviously like New
Zealand's most famous wine.

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):
Yeah, I was about to say it's nothing to do with wine
.
I was going to mention thatwhen you said you'd quite like
to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:22:00):
Absolutely Definitely is.
I've been to the Marlboroughregion and the wine there is
absolutely incredible, and theidea of finishing and
celebrating in the Marlboroughregion is just yeah awesome.
I suspect I might need a littlebit more time between now and
to get organized and learn a fewnew sports.
Yes, yes, yes, like how to kind,but it did.

(01:22:22):
It struck me that there was alot of similarities between that
and ultra running, but withoutbeing quite so hard.
Like, ultra running is clearlyreally difficult if you have, if
you can't run more than 30, 40miles, you know, if your knees
are not willing, whereas thisstrikes me as something that

(01:22:42):
takes longer, but you still getthose same awesome experiences
of being out for the days on endexperiencing kind of the sort
of rugged parts of the world.
I did think that that would be.
Yeah, it's just an alternativeto that, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
Yeah, and I think we're seeing this
diversification, aren't we awayfrom sort of mainstream
competitions like triathlon into, I mean, ultra running?
Kind of exploded, didn't they,over lockdown, but but yeah,
these, these ultra events thatthe as humans were kind of
searching more and more to beable to experience different

(01:23:21):
things.
And you know, I was eventhinking back to I forget the
name of it actually, but it'sultra running essentially and
then you are hang gliding off ahill and then you're running
again.

Speaker 1 (01:23:33):
So yes, I can't remember what it's called either
, but again crazy is what itshould be.

Speaker 2 (01:23:40):
But really, really good fun.
And I can see there's anelement of how do you win?
Well, you've got to run, andthen you've got to find the
highest hill to get the mostdistance when you're flying, to
then be able to run again.
So I think, yeah, we're seeingall these kind of permutations,
aren't we, of different things,and I think, almost like we're
moving, moving athletes aroundagain.

(01:24:02):
You know that maybe we'relosing them from traditional,
mainstream sport into kind ofother areas.

Speaker 1 (01:24:09):
I think?
I think it's the long tail,isn't it?
Essentially, instead of itbeing mass organized events,
people are trying to do more andmore niche, different sort of
interesting, quirky variationson it, and it's kind of what a
bit what we talked about withBob Bavitt, wasn't it?
And the blue ocean stuff ofjust doing you know weird
combinations.
You know whether it's speedgoal for, whether it's bringing

(01:24:30):
a horse into it, or whether it'sa hand glider or a kayak, it's
all just.
Essentially it's endurance andadventure, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:24:38):
Yeah, absolutely the other thing.

Speaker 1 (01:24:41):
I thought was sorry.
The other thing I thought wasreally interesting that he said
about was the importance ofsleeping and the amount of sleep
.
Yeah yeah, so that impact ofgetting his team to sleep longer
than they realized and theylost all of their advantage, but
then one by a whole day becauseof it.
I thought that was reallyinteresting.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
I truly think that people forget how much sleep we
actually need and you know, evenon a day to day basis, in terms
of learning about yourself aswell, and how much you need and
how much of a competitiveadvantage even in day to day
life it's going to give you,whereas we're constantly, aren't
we, in such busy lifestyles,cutting down on our sleep.
So it's no wonder when you getto a competition, you think I

(01:25:22):
can, I can do without.
You know, I've got, I've got tokind of keep keep moving.
So that, yeah, that was thatwas really interesting to hear
about.
And actually, well, we know thestudies of long time effects of
not sleeping enough or gettinga good quality sleep and
sleeping at the wrong times ofday.
And he kind of led on a littlebit.
He touched a little bit of thescience of that, didn't he?

(01:25:42):
In terms of long term health,he, you know he was talking
about his own long term healthand the effects of doing this
endurance sport for such a, youknow, many years of his life.

Speaker 1 (01:25:51):
Yeah, you're right and it's so.
Actually, I've been listeningto a few different things from
Matthew Walker, the guy whowrote why we sleep, and he talks
about the kind of short, mediumand long term effects of the
short term effects are that, forexample, a nurse that has just
finished a 24 hour shift is 168%more likely to have a crash on

(01:26:16):
the way home than normally.
So you can, you can affect youshort term by just being overly
tired and having a crash.
It can affect you medium termin the it causes.
You know it can massivelyincrease your risk of things
like diabetes, diabetes, cancer,heart disease, all of that kind

(01:26:36):
of stuff, plus stress andanxiety.
Really big impact on that.
And then long term it's thingslike Alzheimer's.

Speaker 2 (01:26:43):
You know it's, it's, it's that's the overall body
stress or stress or effects thatwe get, isn't it that
combination?
Yeah, I think.
I mean, I think sleep is isfascinating, and hopefully we'll
have somebody else on on the onthe podcast, to do with sleep
as well.

Speaker 1 (01:27:02):
We need to.
We do need to line up that weneed to find somebody for season
five.

Speaker 2 (01:27:05):
I think we've obviously had I have a couple in
my, in my yeah, in my on mylist to contact, so let's see if
we can get someone on do that,do that brilliant Right.

Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
Well, and that's another episode of brilliant
episode, really differentepisode, and I really enjoyed it
and I hope people caught lotsof interesting takeaways from it
.
Another episode done, so goodluck with your training and
yours.
Thank you very much and foreveryone else.
Keep on training and rememberthis episode was brought to you

(01:27:45):
by the trusted team and byfourth discipline, so if you
want to find out more about howthe trusted team can help you
grow your business and improveyour work life balance, go to
the trusted dot team, and if youwant to find out more about how
fourth discipline can help takeyour performance in sport and
life to the next level, go tofourth discipline dot com.

(01:28:06):
If you enjoyed this podcast,please do review it and share it
, because it helps other peoplefind what we think is really
valuable learning lessons fromamazing athletes, and so please
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(01:28:26):
You can also find the wholeback catalog at tribathloncom,
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