November 8, 2024 • 45 mins
Florence Cook, a remarkable medium of the late 19th century, claimed the ability to materialize a spirit named Katie King, captivating audiences with her otherworldly performances. This episode delves into the fascinating intersection of spiritualism, science, and skepticism as we explore Florence's journey alongside the esteemed scientist William Crookes, who sought to validate her abilities through rigorous experimentation.
With a backdrop of seances and spirit cabinets, we examine whether Florence truly channeled Katie or if it was all an elaborate hoax. The episode also touches on the societal perceptions of mediums and the blend of magic and spirituality during this era. Join us as we untangle the mysteries surrounding Florence, Katie, and the blurred lines between the supernatural and the scientific!
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- Florence Cook
- Mediumship in the Mainstream: The Spirit Cabinet
- "King, John" | Encyclopedia.com
- ENERGY CHAMBERS FOR THE DEAD — American Hauntings
- The Ghost of Katie King
- THE MEDIUM AND THE SCIENTIST — American Hauntings
- The Spirit Photographs of William Hope
- Spirit photography and the occult: Making the invisible visible
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
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(00:48):
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(01:09):
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If you're a person who isdisheartened by the election results,
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(01:31):
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Aren't you tired of fuckingfeeling this way? Feeling like the
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(01:52):
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(03:00):
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we look forward to doing thatwith you next year. And with that,
here's today's episode.
Hello, everyone. Today is acontinuation of our spirit photography
episode.
Yeah.
It had a particular story thatkind of needed its own episode. Yeah.
(04:05):
Because it quickly became thestar of the other episode. And we
also needed to talk about it more.
Yes. We had to dissect it alittle bit more.
Amanda had a name for it, andI was like, no, it's Florence and
the Ghost instead of Florenceand the Machine. Perfect.
I loved it.
Florence and the Ghost. I waslike, beautiful.
You don't have to listen tothe first spirit photography episode
to understand everything inthis other than people were always
(04:29):
interested in spiritphotography like we are today, so
we're just going to dive rightin. Another type of photography that
didn't even cross my mind tolook at, but is kind of spooky, was
the invention of the X Ray in1895. Was that a consideration to
you?
No, because in my head, thatwasn't a photo. A fucking course
it's a photo. It's an image.But I was like, mind fucking blown.
(04:52):
Yes. And like your Skeleton'sscary, right? It's. It's spooky.
Yeah, it is.
So very soon after it wasinvented, people started to associate
them with death, spirits andthe occult, which is cool because
you don't really see medicalstuff overlap with that very often,
other than, like, aftersomeone's dead already.
But, like, I will say thatwhen you look at medical instruments
(05:15):
from other periods in time.
Oh, they're terrifying.
They are horror adjacent.
Yes.
But not when they are thecurrent technology.
Yes, yes. In this next part, Iwas like, oh, my gosh, I never thought
of it this way, but I do loveit. Spiritualist used the X ray as
a confirmation that thevisible world was simply a veil and
(05:36):
that it hides a deeper andinvisible spiritual reality. And,
like, how true is that with anX ray? Because on the surface level,
when we're looking at eachother, we don't see a skull or bones
or anything. But thisparticular form of photography can
show something that you can'tvisually see.
Yeah.
So just because you can't seeit doesn't mean it's not their type
(05:57):
mentality.
And I love it when this allstill seems like fucking magic. This
is during a time period whenpopular religion and spirituality,
spiritualism, magic,witchcraft, all that could exist
together.
Yes.
So you weren't like a badChristian if you believed in the
occult Necessarily.
(06:18):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah. And, like, it was verycommon for people to watch seances
and, like, attend differentspooky things. And it wasn't looked
at as they were being weird.It was just. This is interesting.
This is an interesting topic.
People were like, I miss mypeople. It was seen as a way to connect
with loved ones, not as, like,spooky, which oftentimes today when
(06:38):
people are seeking out mediumsand things like that, it is for that
same reason. It is still toconnect with somebody who they love.
It's just that the world'ssuch a different place and people
like to add moral things tothings that are unnecessary.
Right, right. So going back tothe X ray, how the X ray was discovered
isn't what we're going to betalking about, but kind of someone
(06:58):
that played a big part in it.So it was discovered because of a
chemist physicist namedWilliam Crookes, and he created something
called a Crookes tube. And sothat was part of how an X ray was
discovered, is his firstdiscovery, helped with the invention.
So he is scientific as fuck.
Yeah, he is scientific asfuck. Yes.
Scientific as fuck. Anofficial title.
(07:21):
Let me tell you how scientificthis dude is. So, okay, let's go
he also discovered the elementthallium. Oh, do I know what that
is? Nope. But I know it'sscience. Right? It's on the periodic
table. I heard someone, Idon't know, I, maybe it was a TikTok
or something saying to ateacher, like, are you allowed to
have a Breaking Bad poster upin your room? And it was the periodic
(07:41):
table.
Oh, that hurts.
I love it. I laugh so hard.Especially cuz one of our friends
is a chemistry teacher and hedressed up as Walter White once for
Halloween.
So gorgeous.
William Crookes alsoidentified plasma as one of the four
fundamental states of matterand much more.
Fuck yeah. So he's for realsies.
(08:02):
He's for real. Z is ascientist. Right. And during his
research and work he loved toincorporate photography into it.
So that's kind of where we getthe photo element. Right. And even
more fun to talk about. Hisresearch was influenced by his interest
in spiritualism. And he alsoseemed to be a big fan of William
(08:24):
Hope, one of the photographerswe talked about a while back, spirit
photographers. And he likedthat he was able to do that. So kind
of fun that he's science y andspooky at the same time.
Yeah, I love it. So, okay,we're shifting to our spiritualism
time. I love it. Crook wasinvolved in the testing of a medium
named Florence Cook. We'regonna call her Florence, but sometimes
(08:46):
she's referred to as Flory,which is the fucking cutest thing
I've ever heard in my life.
It is, it is.
Now when you think of amedium, you probably, like many people,
think a person who can talk tospirits, if you believe in that kind
of thing.
Right, right.
But have you ever heard ofsomebody who could materialize a
full body spirit? Becausethat's what Florence could do. Holy
fuck. It sounds unbelievable.
(09:09):
Right? And after researchingwhat we're going to talk about, I
kept thinking like if I werepresent in any of these, how unnerving.
But fascinating. And like allthe feelings that I would feel watching
this unfolding, so cool.
My brain breaks the idea ofit, but I'm like, wow. Fucking wow.
And so not only could shematerialize a full body apparition,
(09:30):
but it was the same one overand over and over again. And the
spirit was known as KatieKing. Florence would be able to materialize
Katie when she was in atrance. But it is important to note
that. So if you're thinking ofa trance, you're thinking the person
is there but not there. Right.They're meditating, if you will.
Yeah, trance meditating.Similar. Katie King, we're going
(09:52):
to call her Katie from now on,was Florence's spirit guide.
And I love the thought of aspirit guide. I love all the books
that talk about it and like,yes, contracts and all of that. I
love it.
Yes. And so if you're thinkingof a spirit guide, I want you to
think about somebody who aperson talks to and has a close relationship
with. So while she was able tomaterialize Katie, it wasn't as though
Katie's interactions were onlywith other people. Her and Florence
(10:16):
also had, like, a deep friendship.
Yeah.
And what's even more strangeis, so we've got a medium who can
materialize a whole assapparition. But what makes it weirder
is that this is not the firsttime that Katie's been around.
Yes.
Katie King had a substantivehistory before being associated with
Florence. So we're in, like,the late 1800s, early 1900s. During
(10:37):
this. Okay. Katie was said toappear during seances in the 1850s
in London and possibly otherplaces. But we'll get to that. She
was also said to have livedunder the name Annie Owen Morgan
when she was alive, and thatshe was the daughter of a pirate
named Henry Morgan. Now,people had also communicated with
him in his afterlife, and hehad gone by the name John King. So
(10:58):
I think this is kind of sweet.Katie took the name of her father
in the afterlife. So she'sKatie King because of her dad changing
his name.
Yes. And, like, he's beenassociated with a lot of this as
well. We're not going to somuch focus on his backstory today.
But in a lot of seances andstuff, he did make an appearance.
Parents. And we'll talk aboutone instance. But he has a big story,
(11:20):
too.
Yeah. And when she was alive,Annie or Katie was a, quote, self
professed liar, cheat, andadulteress. Okay. I love this for
her. She's like, I'm doingwhatever the fuck I want. Okay, man,
do it. But she did die in her20s. And I feel like your 20s, you're,
like, figuring out how to be a person.
Right.
Like, you're figuring out howto be an adult. Have relationships.
(11:42):
Have relationships whereyou're not accidentally hurting other
people, but you're stillprioritizing yourself. It's a messy
time. I don't care what erawe're in. I think that it should
be a messy time in everybody'slife. So Katie made it her mission
when she was dead to prove tothe world the truth about spiritualism
and to prove the talents ofsome mediums. One being Florence.
Okay. You know, I don't likeghosts who are working, but I love
(12:04):
a ghost with a mission.
That is cool. Yeah.
Also one that's like, I wantyou guys to know what the fuck is.
Going on and that I exist still.
Yeah. Yeah. And like, I'mgonna make it irrefutable.
Yes.
I'm gonna get a scientist,baby. That's what she said. That's
what Katie said. It'll makesense later. So let's talk a little
about Florence in particularfirst. Florence claimed as a child
that she could hear the voicesof angels.
(12:25):
And that's a common thing thatpeople talk about still today.
Mm. Mm.
I love it and I'm fascinatedin it. But I was always like, oh,
gosh, please don't. Pleasedon't be talking to something that
I don't know. I can't seethings on a baby monitor. You know,
like, please don't do that.
Oh, no, no, no, don't do that.You're like, can you just do it when
I' around? Don't make me belike, what's that voice in the baby
monitor?
(12:46):
Yeah.
Why are you giggling by yourself?
Oh, my gosh. When we had toshop for a baby monitor, I was stressed.
I was like, I'm going to seesomething and we're going to have
to move.
Well, we also talked about ina recent episode, a not ghostly thing
that somebody saw on a babymonitor that they saw. Child abuse.
Yeah.
Fucking wild.
Yeah. Not a fan of babymonitors. It scared me. But once
(13:07):
we were done with the babymonitor, I was so relieved. So Florence
as a child, she's talking toangels. Right. Her psychic gifts
began to manifest around theage 15, and it was when she levitated
a piece of furniture during atable tilting session with her friends.
As one does.
As one does now, the table wassaid to levitate four feet off of
(13:28):
the ground. Or I've seen insome sources that it was Florence
that was levitating. So justdepending on the source, but something
was levitating that shouldn'thave been levitating. Right. And
for those that are like, whatthe hell is table tilting? It is
very interesting. I wasactually looking at a tour that talked
about it recently, and it wasfunny that it came up in research
this week too. But tabletilting was sort of like a Ouija
(13:50):
board situation, but using atable instead. And it was a type
of seance where people wouldsit around the table, they'd all
place their hands on it, andthe table would sort of move. And
whenever you look up, likepictures of seances, especially around
Halloween time or right afterHalloween time. A lot of them are
a picture of people doingtable tilting. And you never really
(14:10):
thought about it until, youknow, looking into it. But what would
happen is a piece of thetable, the table itself, something
would levitate or move. Andthen what you would do is you'd create
a code with the spirits tocommunicate. But it was insanely
time consuming. So, forinstance, you could say like one
table knock meant yes, two metno. Or if you want to use it like
a Ouija board, one table knockfor A, twice for B, and so on.
(14:35):
This sounds exhausting. Thisis also when people talk about spiritualism
and the showmanship of it.This is where this kind of comes
into play with a knocking.Because there's a lot of things that
could create a knocking sound.
Right.
You can create mechanisms todo that. You could have someone in
a closet that you can't see.You know what I mean? That is hidden.
And so when you're talkingabout knocking, it's a little bit
(14:57):
different. But when you'retalking about a table levitating,
that's a lot. That's. That's a lot.
Yeah.
I also just want to say thatthe idea of being like having to
go through, through eachletter, it sounds exhausting. And
if you're talking aboutlifting tables for like proof of
a spirit, that sounds like itwould be a lot of energy.
Yeah, it would be hard.
Yeah.
And so like skeptics to theOuija board, they claimed that it
(15:19):
was all unconscious muscularactions by the people that were participating
in the seance. But others werelike, how did some of those people
answer these questions whenthere's no way they could have known
the answer to it?
Yeah.
So interesting. Kind of likethe Ouija board, like some instances
may be faked, but I don't knowabout all of them. Anyways, back
to Florence. She continued todo seances in her home. And she could
(15:41):
also do something with whatthey called a spirit cabinet. And
this would involve her beingtied up willingly to a chair and
put into a cabinet of sorts.And this cabinet would either have
a hole cut way up, like on thedoor, or it would be closed with
a curtain. There's a lot ofdifferent descriptions of what a
spirit cabinet would looklike. And in particular, Florences.
(16:01):
There's not a lot but howspirit cabinet worked in essence.
They're fucking weird.
They are fucking weird.
I would just tell you of allthe ways in which to test someone's
mediumship, never in my MindWould I be like, okay, here's what
we're gonna do. We're gonnatake an armoire, we're gonna cut
a hole in it. We're gonna tiesomeone up. We're gonna blindfold
them, we're gonna cover themin a sheet. Then we're gonna make
(16:23):
a little tiny curtain, put itin. That's how we're gonna test them.
I'm like, yep, okay. Okay. Imean, again, we're doing the most.
We are. We're doing a lot. Soimagine, yeah. A big fucking cabinet
where someone could get insideof it and be tied to a chair. And
then I'm not sure where thecurtain was.
Was hers.
I've seen some that said,like, it was up high in the cabinet
(16:44):
door, but I've also seen thata whole curtain. Close the cabinet.
So I'm a little confused onher particular one. There's many
different types of spiritcabinets I've found, but some mediums
would even just have a wholeroom or maybe a corner of a room
that would curtain off or evensometimes a doorway. But hers was
some sort of cabinet forFlorence's seances. Onlookers sometimes
would even sing hymns to,like, set the mood of the seance.
(17:08):
So again, the overlap ofChristianity with this. Because hymns
is a Christian song typically,Right? Or religious song.
Yes, yes. So then they wouldhave someone typically check to make
sure she was still in thecabinet tied to the chair. Right.
Think of, like a magician,too. And magicians played a big role
in this era, too. I didn'tthink about it until recently, like,
(17:28):
the overlap there. Butanyways, after they checked, what
they would start seeing isfaces appear either through the hole
or behind the curtain orcoming out of the curtain. Remember,
it was like a thin, veilishcurtain, and so they'd see faces,
and then they would disappearand the door would be opened, and
then it would show Florence,exhausted from allowing the spirits
to use her energy to appear.So she's sitting in the cabinet.
(17:51):
People are starting to seefaces coming up in the veil or curtain,
but she's tied to a chair, sohow could she be doing all this stuff?
Right. Yeah.
Some were super convinced thisis spirits. She's manifesting spirits.
This is for realsies. Otherswere like, it's like a magician's
trick. She can untie herselfquickly, move her face around, and
then tie herself back upquickly before we have a chance to
(18:13):
walk over there and look. Mm,interesting. Like you said, it's
doing a lot to prove theessence of spirits, right?
Yes. It's Also, she is doingthis in a way that is boldly more
powerful than a lot of otherpeople at the time. So she's doing
it in a way that would invite scrutiny.
(18:33):
Yes, agreed.
And you would think that ifyou were, like, really not real,
maybe you would just want tofly in the middle, be, like, good
enough, but not the best. Youknow what I'm saying?
Right.
I don't know. I just feel likeI would do less if I was lying.
Yeah, that's true. Right. Andso the use of a spirit cabinet wasn't
first used by Florence theDavenport Brothers, which is another
(18:53):
big name in this wholetimeframe. With the help of their
spirit guide, John King. Soundfamiliar? And the suggestion from
an audience member at one oftheir seances, they created the spirit
cabinet in the 1850s. And I'vealso seen that they may have gotten
the idea from a combination ofplaces. So not just the two I've
discussed. John Coons and hisfamily were also a big name during
(19:17):
this time, and they createdsomething called a spirit room after
being ordered to do so byspirits. The Coons family was likely
also inspired by this nextone, and that's the famous Fox sisters.
And you may have heard of thembefore. They claimed that they can
communicate with the dead inthe late 1840s. So between all of
these people, she was able toget her spirit cabinet going.
(19:40):
And we actually talked aboutthem in our original ghost episode.
Made a little section on spiritualism.
Yep. Yeah. I was like, I know.The name has popped up also.
Episode three.
We love episode three.
We love episode three.
But their name comes up a lotif you look up spiritualism.
Oh, yeah.
Fox Sisters is a really bigone. Davenport Brothers is a big
one. I hadn't really heard ofthe Koons family very much, but after
(20:01):
reading a bit of their story,like, it totally makes sense.
Absolutely. So people flockedto see Florence's abilities, and
you would think perhaps it'sjust because of the wondrous things
she could do. Of course not.We can't have anything fucking interesting
and good without people beingfucking creepy.
Yeah.
Sometimes spirits would tossher in the air, and on one occasion,
they ripped off her clothing.And so these occasions may have been
(20:24):
before she was doing theseances at home, because before that,
she was doing them at theDalston Society. And that's where
we think it may have gotten tobe a bit too much.
Yeah. Yeah. I believe her momstepped in, was like, maybe we should
just do these at home.
Absolutely. So Florence workedat a school at the time And I can't
even imagine like nowadaysbeing able to be a full ass person
(20:46):
with like intense spiritualbeliefs that are public.
Yeah.
While working like that. Justlike in a public setting like that.
And with children involved,people would not have it, but. So
some of the girls at theschool were unsettled by, quote,
Ms. Cook's spirits, which is sad.
Yeah.
And the parents didn't wantanything to happen while they were
there. So they all. So she wasultimately let go from the school,
(21:08):
which is very sad becauseshe's doing this other thing, presumably
not just for herself. Right.She's making money from it, but not
enough where she could quither day.
Job, clearly at first, at least.
Like if she's making enough asa medium, she wouldn't be like, I'm
going to still be a teacher.But, you know. So we get to 1872
and during one of her Cabinetevents, a face appears and announced
that it was Katie King. And soas time went on and as the seances
(21:31):
continued, more and more ofKatie began to appear. Eventually
her entire body could be seenwrapped in a thin white cloth. This
happened over and over andover again. So once she fully materialized,
she came back. Typically itwould take as long as 30 minutes.
The curtain would part and thefigure of Katie would emerge. Usually
(21:53):
she was dressed in white andlooked pale. And people presumed
that Florence was still in thecabinet, unconscious. Sometimes onlookers
would hear Florence sobbing ormoaning inside the cabinet. It's
also interesting, the idea ofcalling her unconscious when she's
in a trance, because there'sno reason why she should necessarily
be unconscious.
Right.
But it could be that she'smeditating so intensely that it seems
(22:15):
as though she is. But eitherway. So at first Katie would only
smile and nod from a distance.But after a few more appearances,
she started walking around andtalking to the guests. She became
an attraction, not surprisingat all. And people would travel to
come see her. But some peoplethought that she looked a lot like
Florence. And I think it'sfascinating that she was kind of
(22:35):
a flirt. She would be flirtingwith people. She's sitting on people's
laps. She is out living it up,taking in the attention.
And from what I understand,that was not Florence's personality
at all. Yes, agreed. So onDecember 9th of 1873, a lawyer named
William Volkman, lots ofWilliams, was invited to one of the
(22:57):
seances with some of hisfriends. He saw a lot of similarities
between Florence and Katieimmediately, and it kind of pissed
him off. So he got super duperangry. He grabbed Katie as she was
interacting with some of theother guests. And he grabbed her
arm and then held her at herwaist. Ew. And then he started screaming
out that it was just Florencein a disguise. Now, Katie managed
(23:18):
to get away. She scratched himin kind of like a fight to get freed.
Also, Florence's fiance at thetime was present, Edward corner.
And he helped, along with someof the friends of the cook family
that were present, to, like,help her get free. Yeah. A lot of
people also believe that itmight have been dangerous to interfere
with the apparition,Especially if they were being materialized
(23:39):
through another person. Likemaybe causing that link to go away
or harm the person. Theyweren't sure. But I did think that
that was interesting becauseKatie was said to interact with guests
and, like, sit on their lapand stuff. So, like, was there a
limit?
Maybe it's like, stripperrules. They could touch you, but
you can't touch them.
Maybe.
Maybe it's one thing to betouching. Interfering is like holding
(24:00):
you.
Right.
You can't get up and go backshould you want to.
And a lot more emotion. Idon't know. Maybe to change that
link.
Yeah.
But for whatever reason, hegrabbed her. She got away. Now, one
of the guests that werepresent said that the spirit then
vanished out of thin air fromthe feet upward. That's what they
remember seeing. Now, Volkmanstormed into the other room where
(24:21):
the cabinet was, opened up thedoor, opened the curtain, and he
sees Florence still tied up.But they did note her hair and clothing
were a little messed up. Theywere a little disheveled. Yeah.
But keep in mind that duringthese people had said she was moaning
and sobbing, so it's notaltogether strange that she might
be thrashing about possibly.
Now, this event created twosides. People that very much believed
(24:45):
in Florence's abilities, andthen a lot more skeptics. Florence
decided that she needed toprove herself. So she contacted our
sciency friend, William crooks.
You know, the guy who helpedinvent the x ray.
Yes.
A science, science. A science,science guy.
Right. A piece of the x ray.But he did find the element. He's.
He's a science guy. Peoplereally respected him.
(25:06):
Maybe he was your favoritescientist. Favorite scientist. He
was that level of scientist.
Yes. Yes. So people really,really trusted him because he was
so accomplished. He had alsorecently lost his brother, and that
gave him a bigger interest inpsychical research because of it.
Now he was stoked to work withFlorence. He's like, yeah, we're
(25:29):
gonna do sciency things toprove that this is real.
Who fucking wouldn't be? SoWilliam invited Florence to come
stay at his home with his wifeand his children.
Yes.
Good to know. Hey, come livewith. It's weirder if he's single,
right?
Yeah, I guess.
Ish.
Ish. I mean, we'll talk about it.
Yeah, we'll get there. We'llget there. So William had already
(25:49):
built a room designed toconduct tests and experiments under
controlled conditions,because, again, like I said earlier,
and like Amanda mentioned, alot of spiritualists were building
their own spaces. So fair thatto make sure that there was nothing
afoot, you would create thespace. One of the experiments he
did was to have Florence laydown on a couch behind a curtain
(26:11):
and wrap a shaw around herface. And the shawl was thought to
protect her from the lights.Then Katie appeared in front of the
curtain. So separate from her,William checked to make sure that
Florence was still laying downon the couch. And she was, but she
had the shawl on her face, sohe couldn't make sure it was Florence
underneath. It could have justbeen someone there. Interesting.
Another test included anelectrical setup. Florence was placed
(26:33):
with an electric circuitconnected with a resistance coil
and a galvanometer. Hoping Isaid it right. Anyway, the movements
of the meter were shown in theother room where other people were
watching. If she moved thewires, the meter would have fluctuated.
Supposedly, nothing suspiciousever showed during the test. Additionally,
at one point, they had Katieput her hands in a chemical solution,
(26:55):
which, if the wires had beenon her, it would have caused an increase
in electrical current. Hmm.
Interesting. Very sciency wayto do this.
Yeah, it's all science.Science, you know? So, since the
meter never changed, Williamsaid that it indicated that the hands
placing the chemical solutioncould not have belonged to Florence.
Interesting.
Yes. William also reportedthat Florence was able to manifest
(27:16):
Katie during theseexperiments, even when she was bound
not only with her normal ropeknots, but also with tape and rope
and knots sealed with wax. Sothe wax would have cracked if it
had been untied.
Right. And there was a varietyof experiments. We just focused on
a couple, but there was a lot done.
Yeah. He also said that at onepoint, Katie even walked him over
(27:38):
to see Florence while she wasin a trance on the floor.
Interesting.
Mm.
I find it strange that she wasable to make it to the floor if they
kept tying her up, becausethen, like, the couch situation seemed
like she wasn't tied up. So itseems like sometimes she was and
sometimes she wasn't.
I would imagine that hestarted with her on a couch. Laying
there with a shawl on herface. And then increased them in
(27:59):
severity. Right? Because like,why do a very rigorous scientific
test if she can't even pass abasic one?
That's fair. So he mentionedthat the two women, so Katie and
Florence did look similar, butthere were also a lot of differences.
For instance, Katie was tallerthan Florence. Florence had dark
hair and Katie's was a goldenauburn. Florence also tended to bite
(28:22):
her nails. But when he lookedat Katie's nails, they seemed to
appear normal, so not bitten off.
There was even a part whereFlorence was sick, like she had chest
congestion. And he listened toher chest with a stethoscope and
he listened to Katie's chestand it was clear.
That's interesting.
It was like within a few hoursof one another. And like that she
(28:42):
was like a foot taller.
Right?
Like not just a little. Shewas like one human head taller, if
you will, is kind of how hedescribed it. But I was like, that's
not two inches.
How many 12 year old boys though?
Oof, I don't know. Human headis like 10 inches. That's what, almost
1/5 of a 12 year old boy. Idon't even need a fucking calculator
anymore. That's how like muchof a.
(29:03):
This is the most proud she'sever been.
I was just like. I'm a. I wasgoing to say a 12 year old boy mathematician,
but I do not want that title.That sounds like something you would
get in a lot of trouble for.And I just like their height. That's
not weird at all.
You know what's funny is ifsomeone has found us recently and
we're always talking about 12year old boys, but has no idea why.
(29:26):
Please. It's in our lake.Linear episode. Somebody measured
something with a 12 year old boy.
Yes, yes. That's where it camefrom. Any newbies? That's what happened.
Okay, so yeah, there were,there were differences. Very strange.
Now, William published hisfindings in a report in 1874. In
the report he said, quote, Ihave the most absolute certainty
that Ms. Cook and Katie aretwo separate individuals so far as
(29:50):
their bodies are concerned.Okay, okay. He knows their bodies.
Okay.
Now, during his tests, he usedfive cameras and was able to capture
55 photos. So that's also whywe had it in our spirit photography
episode originally is becausewe were talking a lot about photos.
Yes. Now there are rumors thatsome of these photos still may be
(30:10):
out there today. However, alot of them seem to have been destroyed
along with the negatives. AndI've Seen two different times, either
right before William died in1919, or some sources said that his
heirs destroyed them after hisdeath. But I have seen some sources
claim that they're out there,and we've seen a few of them online.
Yeah.
But also I saw one source thatclaimed to even maybe have one of
(30:32):
them, and I was like, ooh, letus see. But they didn't talk anything
more, so just interesting. Thephotos are not great quality, but
there are some of him standingnext to Katie and then standing next
to Florence. And one even mayhave showed Katie and Florence together,
but Florence was kind ofslumped over and still in her trance.
Also, again, didn't look likeshe was tied up in this photo. And
(30:54):
in that photo, too, you can'treally see Katie's face at all. It's
covered. It's under, like, awhite sheet of sorts. So hard to
tell who's who or, like, ifthere's a different person who could
know. Now, his report justfueled both sides of the argument,
whether they were believers or skeptics.
I think that's fair, because Ithink that either way, you're either
like, they fooled a man ofscience or you're, like, a man of
(31:17):
science.
Proved it.
It's one of the twotechnically. But is it? So Florence
also announced that Katie waspreparing to go for good, and there
were several seances forpeople to say goodbye. What's really
interesting is that when youread William's account of things,
he says that from the verybeginning, Katie was very clear that
(31:38):
she would be there for three years.
Yeah.
And she was, like, true to herword. So the book Mystical Forces
by Camille Flammarion, whichwas published in 1909, included details
about William's experienceswith, quote, Ms. Cooke and Katie.
Isn't it interesting how hecalls Florence Ms. Cook, even though
she's living with him, knowshis family like he knows her, but
(32:00):
she's Ms. Cook, and Katie is Katie.
He likes Katie.
He likes Katie. So he recountsthat before Katie left, she and William
spent some time alone in thecabinet together, and that they closed
the little curtain thing sonobody could see it.
Where was Florence?
And there's no accounts ofwhat they talked about. And have
you seen the memes that arelike, find yourself someone who looks
(32:21):
at you like this dog looks at,like, a plate of lasagna? Of course.
Yeah.
Find yourself someone whowrites about you the way that William
writes about Katie.
But photography is asinadequate to depict the perfect
beauty of Katie's face aswords are powerless to describe her
charms of Manner photographymay indeed give a map of her countenance,
(32:45):
but how can it reproduce thebrilliant purity of her complexion
or the ever varying expressionof her most mobile features, now
overshadowed with sadness whenrelating some of the bitter experiences
of her past life? Not smilingwith all the innocence of a happy
girlhood when she hadcollected my children round her and
(33:07):
was amusing them by recountinganecdotes of her adventures in India.
Sir, that doesn't sound likescience. Also, earlier we said golden
auburn hair. That was hisdescription of her golden auburn
hair. Yeah, I mean it's a gooddescription, but. Sir.
Sir. Right. And what wasKatie's? Just dark.
Yeah, yeah. So Williamexplained that after he and Katie
(33:31):
had some cabinet time, shewalked over to Florence where she
was lying on the floor in atrance, leaned over and said, wake
up, Flurry, wake up. I mustleave you now. And after Florence
woke up, she begged Katie tostay and Katie responded, my dear,
I can't. My work is done. Godbless you. And so they talked for
a few minutes and then one ofthe things they did talk about during
their cabinet time was thatKatie asked William to help care
(33:54):
for Flurry because she knewshe would be upset and to like help
calm her down. So after Katieand Florence talked for a little
bit, eventually Florencecouldn't even talk, she was crying
so hard. And William came overand like consoled her and he was
talking to her and then helooks up and Katie's gone. Presumably
William is heartbroken.Afterwards, Florence took some time
off to spend time with her newhusband, Elkie Horner. And you don't
(34:15):
really hear much about herspiritualist life after that.
Not for a while, not for abit. But it's the same guy that freed
Katie when the other man hadgrabbed her. So they ended up getting
married. Yeah, now she's takentime off. Well, in Philadelphia,
Katie appeared to come out ofa spirit cabinet again, but this
was with different people. Sheappeared in Nelson and Jenny Holmes
(34:37):
apartment. The couple'sassistant announced that it was the
same Katie from London. Almostimmediately, Katie and the Holmes
couple got super popular inthe us. They started selling out
two seances a night and theycharged a dollar per person. There
were also photos taken andshown to people at a price. Additionally,
this is very sad. There was akidnapping of a four year old named
(34:59):
Charlie Ross in Philadelphiaaround this time. People were like,
we got someone that is totallygoing to help us with this. And this
is the couple and Katiebecause you know, they're mediums
and Katie's Katie. They'regoing to help us. Well, the three
of them did not seeminterested and did not help.
Of course not.
Which caused some people to bea little more skeptical. They're
(35:20):
like, wait a minute, whywouldn't they help us find this kid?
Like, this is. This is important.
One of the things that peoplethink with this kind of stuff, that
you can force whatever you'reinteracting with to do what you want
and to act in a dime. And it'snot surprising that they aren't like,
and now we're going to fightall crime now that they shouldn't
help.
Right, right. And sometimesmediums can help with stuff like
that, while others aren'treally in tune to that part of it.
(35:42):
Yeah.
But anyways, there's. There'sgoing to be more with them. So newspapers
started to question why theyweren't helping. And more skeptics
started talking about whyKatie seemed to look a little different
than she did in London. Forinstance. She aged a few years.
Interesting.
She also did not have the sameaccent of someone who would have
lived 200 years ago. So the USpeople are like, I'm not buying the
(36:02):
story. Well, then In Januaryof 1875, a woman named Eliza White
comes forward, and she saysthe couple had hired her at $2 a
show to play Katie.
Hmm.
Now, before she came out totell her story, she actually tried
to extort the couple for moremoney. And when they wouldn't give
her more money, she decided togo to the press with her story.
(36:24):
Interesting.
So I think they were like, oh,look at how much money she made.
She's taking time off. Perhapswe could steal the idea of Katie
and make some money off of it.
Yeah. I mean, what an idea. Soalthough Katie was shown to not appear
in the US People still wereunsure of what was happening in London.
Again, William was a smartman. How could he be fooled? Some
people speculate that he wasso upset about his brother's passing
(36:46):
that he wanted to prove thatspiritualism was real. So he was
incredibly biased. Or maybethat she charmed him enough that
she was able to trick him.Others believe he faked it because
he was having an affair withher. He wasn't writing about Florence
that way.
He wasn't. But at the sametime, I want to say his wife was
like, super pregnant with,like, their 10th kid or something.
So it's kind of sad.
(37:06):
Yeah. I mean, again, I said hewas married. My dude. My fucking
dude.
And then Florence had a fiance.
Yeah. Yeah. And also, I mean,presumably he's a wealthy doctor,
if that's what she wanted, youknow, and not to prove herself. Anyway,
Florence began doing seancesagain in 1880 and materialized a
new spirit named Marie. Butlike the other altercation that Katie
(37:28):
had had, a man named SirGeorge Sitwell noticed something
strange in Marie's clothes andgrabbed her. He held on and then
went to look at Florence'schair, which was empty. She later
claimed that her powers weredisappearing, and she didn't want
to upset her followers. Afterthis, Florence would only do seances
if someone was tied up withher to prove she didn't get up. Interesting.
(37:48):
Yeah.
A woman named FlorenceMarriott was tied to her during one
of the seances and said thatshe was tied to Florence the entire
time. But despite this, herfollowing started to dim down, and
she gave her last seance in1899. She agreed to do it under test
conditions in Berlin. Mariematerialized, and it was said to
be a really great showing.Then, five years later, Florence
(38:10):
died in 1904. Katie has comeup a few times in seances over the
years, including in 1903 inCanada and in Rome in 1974.
Isn't that bizarre?
Yes, it is.
So with that being said, whatdo you think? Do you think Florence
was telling the truth and shewas able to materialize Katie, or
(38:30):
do you think the whole thingwas a hoax?
I do not think it was a hoax.I'll explain more in a second, but
I want to know what you think.
So I think she may have hadsome abilities. And the thing that
we didn't really bring up is,as far as the theories go, she had
a sister or maybe two, andsome think, like, oh, maybe it was
her sister, or maybe it wassomeone else. The method of doing
(38:50):
it is very strange to me.Still, even knowing that it was,
like, a common practice, itmaybe it's just too foreign to us
to think of doing somethingthat way. Like, that's a lot.
Yeah.
But it is interesting thatthey looked similar. But, I mean,
photos can be deceiving. Howtall or short someone is, too. So
I'm, like, perfectly in themiddle. I think maybe she did have
some abilities. I don't knowif she was materializing Katie the
(39:12):
whole time, but it did seemlike their personalities were wildly
different. And the thought ofhaving a spirit guide, I do truly
think of stuff like that. AndI think people have the ability to
communicate with spirit guidesand perhaps know things that there's
no way of them knowing. So,again, I'm, like, firmly in the middle.
Okay. So I think she was atulpa. Ooh.
Okay.
(39:32):
I think she is one of theearliest instances of a fucking Tulpa.
I love that.
And. And hear me out on this,because when you are thinking Tulpa
creation, we're talkingintense meditation, right? Tulpas.
We've got a full episode onTulpas. We've got a full episode
on Tulpamancy. This is notgoing to substitute for that. But
(39:53):
if you have listened to thoseepisodes, you are visualizing this
person, right? Their details,everything about them, all of these
things. Is it possible thatshe was a medium and communicated
with Katie King? Abso fuckinglutely. Is it possible that she took
those things that she knewabout Katie King and visualized her
(40:13):
and thought about her andmanifested her in the world as a
Tulpa, as a unique thoughtform and creature?
I love this idea.
Perhaps. Perhaps. Now, doesthat mean that the Katy King that
she knew as her spirit guidethat existed in not the physical
world, is the same one thatshe pulled through into the physical
world, or did she create theone in the physical world? I don't
(40:35):
fucking know. But think aboutthis father, John King. He was one
of the spirits that camethrough with Jenny Holmes and that
seance in 1875. John King wasHelena Blavatsky's thought form.
We talked about HelenaBlavatsky in our Tulpa episode. She
is, for all intents andpurposes, the mother of this theosophy
(40:57):
movement, which is where ourmodern ideas of Tulpas come from,
which is a mixture of TibetanBuddhism and theosophy. So the original
ideas that we have aboutthought forms and the ability to
manifest beings from ourthoughts, the person who made that
up, that thought form, wastheoretically the father of Katie.
That's so bizarre. Like,that's cool that it just, like, wrapped
(41:18):
around mindfuck.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it did. Ifyou're thinking. So. Original writings
on Topless, as we think aboutthem today, came out in 1929. This
is like over 30 years before.Yeah, this ever happened. So it's
just so fucking interesting tome. When we think about spirits and
we think about what people seeand how manifesting works like a
full apparition, is itpossible she was doing something
(41:41):
fully separate? Andfurthermore, if you're thinking that
astral projection happens whenyou're asleep, she was projecting
her thought form from theastral plane while she was asleep,
because she was a fuckingsleep, not simply meditating or in
a trance. Good day.
Good day. I love it. I love it.
And a cherry on top.
Another thing. I mean, youbring up a Good point. If they were
(42:03):
sort of connected in any wayoutside of, you know, Tulpa. Because
I actually do love that idea.
Yeah.
But also, if someone gets intothat state where they're allowing
someone to take over, in a sense.
Yes.
Perhaps that's what she wasdoing. So in her mind, she wasn't
lying. She was still there.
Yes.
In her cabinet. But maybeKatie took over and has a whole different
(42:27):
personality. And maybe thehair color did look a little different,
or maybe she was a little bittaller because she stood up straighter
or, you know, like, whateverit may be.
Oh, absolutely. A full headtaller. I mean, when you're thinking
of it like that, it could evenbe dissociative identity disorder.
Yeah.
Where she. Again, absolutely.I mean, either one, she's possessed.
Possible, or she hasdissociative identity disorder. And
(42:50):
this altar is fully different.And when she stands up taller, she's
closer to the light, so itlooks like she has golden hair. And
you can see it better. And youcan see the red in her hair because
she's closer to the light.
Yeah. That could be justthinking about, like, sometimes people
are like, okay, I can writewhen a spirit's having me write.
My brain hurts thinking aboutall this.
(43:10):
They could have a spirit talkthrough them in certain instances.
What if. Yeah, she was justbeing taken over and allowing it
to happen and not knowing thatshe was anywhere else? In a sense.
Yeah.
Right. She was in. In theweird trance state. So there's so
many different theories. Ilove all of them, though. I do, too.
And I think that this is oneof my. Honestly, one of my favorite
episodes that we've ever donewhere we're talking about mediumship
(43:33):
and ghosts, because it's like,well, fuck, we have so many witnesses.
Yes.
So she was either one hell ofa fucking showman or question mark.
Yes. And something that I kindof hinted towards at the beginning
is this era is also when magicstarted getting really popular. So,
like, names like Houdini andthings like that were. Were tightly
(43:55):
interwoven in this. I want tosay that Houdini even proved some
wrong and, like, was like, mm,I'm good at this. I know when someone's
deceiving us.
Yes.
But a lot of people saw magicand saw spiritualism and is like,
oh, one and the same. And thensome people were like, no, that's
like a trick that they're ableto pull on you without you knowing.
(44:15):
So it's just interesting thata lot of the skeptics are like, it's
the same timeframe. Whenmagic's getting popular. So it's
a sleight of hand in a way.
I find it so fascinating though.
Yeah.
I really do love it.
I do too. So, of course, withall of that being said, we want to
know what you think. Have youheard of this before? And do you
think that Florence and Katieare two separate people?
(44:35):
Yeah. Yeah.
Or do you think it was a hoaxand why?
Yes. Or do you think she's athought form?
Yes. I love it. I love all ofthem. I can't wait to hear what people
say.
I love all of them. Me too.
So with that, we hope you havea great weekend.
Thanks for creeping with us.Thanks for listening and as always,
a special thank you to ourpatrons who support us via Patreon.
(44:58):
Please see the link in ourshow notes to learn more about how
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even become a scorching Sasquatch.
Also in our show notes you canfind the link to our website, more
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merch store.
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(45:20):
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I beg of you. Hi tt welcome toTrue Creeps. It's all science.
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And we want you to join us.
While we creep, we covermature topics. Listener discretion
(00:25):
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(00:48):
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in cases, history and storiesthat shaped our country to get to
(01:09):
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well.
If you're a person who isdisheartened by the election results,
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not let yourself forget thisfeeling. Make yourself a voice memo,
(01:31):
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I'm tired of fucking feelingthis way. And also like either party.
Aren't you tired of fuckingfeeling this way? Feeling like the
world's going to end becauseyour political candidate didn't fucking
win? It should not feel thisway ever, ever, ever. Not just this
(01:52):
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(02:13):
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(02:36):
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(03:00):
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(03:20):
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here's today's episode.
Hello, everyone. Today is acontinuation of our spirit photography
episode.
Yeah.
It had a particular story thatkind of needed its own episode. Yeah.
(04:05):
Because it quickly became thestar of the other episode. And we
also needed to talk about it more.
Yes. We had to dissect it alittle bit more.
Amanda had a name for it, andI was like, no, it's Florence and
the Ghost instead of Florenceand the Machine. Perfect.
I loved it.
Florence and the Ghost. I waslike, beautiful.
You don't have to listen tothe first spirit photography episode
to understand everything inthis other than people were always
(04:29):
interested in spiritphotography like we are today, so
we're just going to dive rightin. Another type of photography that
didn't even cross my mind tolook at, but is kind of spooky, was
the invention of the X Ray in1895. Was that a consideration to
you?
No, because in my head, thatwasn't a photo. A fucking course
it's a photo. It's an image.But I was like, mind fucking blown.
(04:52):
Yes. And like your Skeleton'sscary, right? It's. It's spooky.
Yeah, it is.
So very soon after it wasinvented, people started to associate
them with death, spirits andthe occult, which is cool because
you don't really see medicalstuff overlap with that very often,
other than, like, aftersomeone's dead already.
But, like, I will say thatwhen you look at medical instruments
(05:15):
from other periods in time.
Oh, they're terrifying.
They are horror adjacent.
Yes.
But not when they are thecurrent technology.
Yes, yes. In this next part, Iwas like, oh, my gosh, I never thought
of it this way, but I do loveit. Spiritualist used the X ray as
a confirmation that thevisible world was simply a veil and
(05:36):
that it hides a deeper andinvisible spiritual reality. And,
like, how true is that with anX ray? Because on the surface level,
when we're looking at eachother, we don't see a skull or bones
or anything. But thisparticular form of photography can
show something that you can'tvisually see.
Yeah.
So just because you can't seeit doesn't mean it's not their type
(05:57):
mentality.
And I love it when this allstill seems like fucking magic. This
is during a time period whenpopular religion and spirituality,
spiritualism, magic,witchcraft, all that could exist
together.
Yes.
So you weren't like a badChristian if you believed in the
occult Necessarily.
(06:18):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah. And, like, it was verycommon for people to watch seances
and, like, attend differentspooky things. And it wasn't looked
at as they were being weird.It was just. This is interesting.
This is an interesting topic.
People were like, I miss mypeople. It was seen as a way to connect
with loved ones, not as, like,spooky, which oftentimes today when
(06:38):
people are seeking out mediumsand things like that, it is for that
same reason. It is still toconnect with somebody who they love.
It's just that the world'ssuch a different place and people
like to add moral things tothings that are unnecessary.
Right, right. So going back tothe X ray, how the X ray was discovered
isn't what we're going to betalking about, but kind of someone
(06:58):
that played a big part in it.So it was discovered because of a
chemist physicist namedWilliam Crookes, and he created something
called a Crookes tube. And sothat was part of how an X ray was
discovered, is his firstdiscovery, helped with the invention.
So he is scientific as fuck.
Yeah, he is scientific asfuck. Yes.
Scientific as fuck. Anofficial title.
(07:21):
Let me tell you how scientificthis dude is. So, okay, let's go
he also discovered the elementthallium. Oh, do I know what that
is? Nope. But I know it'sscience. Right? It's on the periodic
table. I heard someone, Idon't know, I, maybe it was a TikTok
or something saying to ateacher, like, are you allowed to
have a Breaking Bad poster upin your room? And it was the periodic
(07:41):
table.
Oh, that hurts.
I love it. I laugh so hard.Especially cuz one of our friends
is a chemistry teacher and hedressed up as Walter White once for
Halloween.
So gorgeous.
William Crookes alsoidentified plasma as one of the four
fundamental states of matterand much more.
Fuck yeah. So he's for realsies.
(08:02):
He's for real. Z is ascientist. Right. And during his
research and work he loved toincorporate photography into it.
So that's kind of where we getthe photo element. Right. And even
more fun to talk about. Hisresearch was influenced by his interest
in spiritualism. And he alsoseemed to be a big fan of William
(08:24):
Hope, one of the photographerswe talked about a while back, spirit
photographers. And he likedthat he was able to do that. So kind
of fun that he's science y andspooky at the same time.
Yeah, I love it. So, okay,we're shifting to our spiritualism
time. I love it. Crook wasinvolved in the testing of a medium
named Florence Cook. We'regonna call her Florence, but sometimes
(08:46):
she's referred to as Flory,which is the fucking cutest thing
I've ever heard in my life.
It is, it is.
Now when you think of amedium, you probably, like many people,
think a person who can talk tospirits, if you believe in that kind
of thing.
Right, right.
But have you ever heard ofsomebody who could materialize a
full body spirit? Becausethat's what Florence could do. Holy
fuck. It sounds unbelievable.
(09:09):
Right? And after researchingwhat we're going to talk about, I
kept thinking like if I werepresent in any of these, how unnerving.
But fascinating. And like allthe feelings that I would feel watching
this unfolding, so cool.
My brain breaks the idea ofit, but I'm like, wow. Fucking wow.
And so not only could shematerialize a full body apparition,
(09:30):
but it was the same one overand over and over again. And the
spirit was known as KatieKing. Florence would be able to materialize
Katie when she was in atrance. But it is important to note
that. So if you're thinking ofa trance, you're thinking the person
is there but not there. Right.They're meditating, if you will.
Yeah, trance meditating.Similar. Katie King, we're going
(09:52):
to call her Katie from now on,was Florence's spirit guide.
And I love the thought of aspirit guide. I love all the books
that talk about it and like,yes, contracts and all of that. I
love it.
Yes. And so if you're thinkingof a spirit guide, I want you to
think about somebody who aperson talks to and has a close relationship
with. So while she was able tomaterialize Katie, it wasn't as though
Katie's interactions were onlywith other people. Her and Florence
(10:16):
also had, like, a deep friendship.
Yeah.
And what's even more strangeis, so we've got a medium who can
materialize a whole assapparition. But what makes it weirder
is that this is not the firsttime that Katie's been around.
Yes.
Katie King had a substantivehistory before being associated with
Florence. So we're in, like,the late 1800s, early 1900s. During
(10:37):
this. Okay. Katie was said toappear during seances in the 1850s
in London and possibly otherplaces. But we'll get to that. She
was also said to have livedunder the name Annie Owen Morgan
when she was alive, and thatshe was the daughter of a pirate
named Henry Morgan. Now,people had also communicated with
him in his afterlife, and hehad gone by the name John King. So
(10:58):
I think this is kind of sweet.Katie took the name of her father
in the afterlife. So she'sKatie King because of her dad changing
his name.
Yes. And, like, he's beenassociated with a lot of this as
well. We're not going to somuch focus on his backstory today.
But in a lot of seances andstuff, he did make an appearance.
Parents. And we'll talk aboutone instance. But he has a big story,
(11:20):
too.
Yeah. And when she was alive,Annie or Katie was a, quote, self
professed liar, cheat, andadulteress. Okay. I love this for
her. She's like, I'm doingwhatever the fuck I want. Okay, man,
do it. But she did die in her20s. And I feel like your 20s, you're,
like, figuring out how to be a person.
Right.
Like, you're figuring out howto be an adult. Have relationships.
(11:42):
Have relationships whereyou're not accidentally hurting other
people, but you're stillprioritizing yourself. It's a messy
time. I don't care what erawe're in. I think that it should
be a messy time in everybody'slife. So Katie made it her mission
when she was dead to prove tothe world the truth about spiritualism
and to prove the talents ofsome mediums. One being Florence.
Okay. You know, I don't likeghosts who are working, but I love
(12:04):
a ghost with a mission.
That is cool. Yeah.
Also one that's like, I wantyou guys to know what the fuck is.
Going on and that I exist still.
Yeah. Yeah. And like, I'mgonna make it irrefutable.
Yes.
I'm gonna get a scientist,baby. That's what she said. That's
what Katie said. It'll makesense later. So let's talk a little
about Florence in particularfirst. Florence claimed as a child
that she could hear the voicesof angels.
(12:25):
And that's a common thing thatpeople talk about still today.
Mm. Mm.
I love it and I'm fascinatedin it. But I was always like, oh,
gosh, please don't. Pleasedon't be talking to something that
I don't know. I can't seethings on a baby monitor. You know,
like, please don't do that.
Oh, no, no, no, don't do that.You're like, can you just do it when
I' around? Don't make me belike, what's that voice in the baby
monitor?
(12:46):
Yeah.
Why are you giggling by yourself?
Oh, my gosh. When we had toshop for a baby monitor, I was stressed.
I was like, I'm going to seesomething and we're going to have
to move.
Well, we also talked about ina recent episode, a not ghostly thing
that somebody saw on a babymonitor that they saw. Child abuse.
Yeah.
Fucking wild.
Yeah. Not a fan of babymonitors. It scared me. But once
(13:07):
we were done with the babymonitor, I was so relieved. So Florence
as a child, she's talking toangels. Right. Her psychic gifts
began to manifest around theage 15, and it was when she levitated
a piece of furniture during atable tilting session with her friends.
As one does.
As one does now, the table wassaid to levitate four feet off of
(13:28):
the ground. Or I've seen insome sources that it was Florence
that was levitating. So justdepending on the source, but something
was levitating that shouldn'thave been levitating. Right. And
for those that are like, whatthe hell is table tilting? It is
very interesting. I wasactually looking at a tour that talked
about it recently, and it wasfunny that it came up in research
this week too. But tabletilting was sort of like a Ouija
(13:50):
board situation, but using atable instead. And it was a type
of seance where people wouldsit around the table, they'd all
place their hands on it, andthe table would sort of move. And
whenever you look up, likepictures of seances, especially around
Halloween time or right afterHalloween time. A lot of them are
a picture of people doingtable tilting. And you never really
(14:10):
thought about it until, youknow, looking into it. But what would
happen is a piece of thetable, the table itself, something
would levitate or move. Andthen what you would do is you'd create
a code with the spirits tocommunicate. But it was insanely
time consuming. So, forinstance, you could say like one
table knock meant yes, two metno. Or if you want to use it like
a Ouija board, one table knockfor A, twice for B, and so on.
(14:35):
This sounds exhausting. Thisis also when people talk about spiritualism
and the showmanship of it.This is where this kind of comes
into play with a knocking.Because there's a lot of things that
could create a knocking sound.
Right.
You can create mechanisms todo that. You could have someone in
a closet that you can't see.You know what I mean? That is hidden.
And so when you're talkingabout knocking, it's a little bit
(14:57):
different. But when you'retalking about a table levitating,
that's a lot. That's. That's a lot.
Yeah.
I also just want to say thatthe idea of being like having to
go through, through eachletter, it sounds exhausting. And
if you're talking aboutlifting tables for like proof of
a spirit, that sounds like itwould be a lot of energy.
Yeah, it would be hard.
Yeah.
And so like skeptics to theOuija board, they claimed that it
(15:19):
was all unconscious muscularactions by the people that were participating
in the seance. But others werelike, how did some of those people
answer these questions whenthere's no way they could have known
the answer to it?
Yeah.
So interesting. Kind of likethe Ouija board, like some instances
may be faked, but I don't knowabout all of them. Anyways, back
to Florence. She continued todo seances in her home. And she could
(15:41):
also do something with whatthey called a spirit cabinet. And
this would involve her beingtied up willingly to a chair and
put into a cabinet of sorts.And this cabinet would either have
a hole cut way up, like on thedoor, or it would be closed with
a curtain. There's a lot ofdifferent descriptions of what a
spirit cabinet would looklike. And in particular, Florences.
(16:01):
There's not a lot but howspirit cabinet worked in essence.
They're fucking weird.
They are fucking weird.
I would just tell you of allthe ways in which to test someone's
mediumship, never in my MindWould I be like, okay, here's what
we're gonna do. We're gonnatake an armoire, we're gonna cut
a hole in it. We're gonna tiesomeone up. We're gonna blindfold
them, we're gonna cover themin a sheet. Then we're gonna make
(16:23):
a little tiny curtain, put itin. That's how we're gonna test them.
I'm like, yep, okay. Okay. Imean, again, we're doing the most.
We are. We're doing a lot. Soimagine, yeah. A big fucking cabinet
where someone could get insideof it and be tied to a chair. And
then I'm not sure where thecurtain was.
Was hers.
I've seen some that said,like, it was up high in the cabinet
(16:44):
door, but I've also seen thata whole curtain. Close the cabinet.
So I'm a little confused onher particular one. There's many
different types of spiritcabinets I've found, but some mediums
would even just have a wholeroom or maybe a corner of a room
that would curtain off or evensometimes a doorway. But hers was
some sort of cabinet forFlorence's seances. Onlookers sometimes
would even sing hymns to,like, set the mood of the seance.
(17:08):
So again, the overlap ofChristianity with this. Because hymns
is a Christian song typically,Right? Or religious song.
Yes, yes. So then they wouldhave someone typically check to make
sure she was still in thecabinet tied to the chair. Right.
Think of, like a magician,too. And magicians played a big role
in this era, too. I didn'tthink about it until recently, like,
(17:28):
the overlap there. Butanyways, after they checked, what
they would start seeing isfaces appear either through the hole
or behind the curtain orcoming out of the curtain. Remember,
it was like a thin, veilishcurtain, and so they'd see faces,
and then they would disappearand the door would be opened, and
then it would show Florence,exhausted from allowing the spirits
to use her energy to appear.So she's sitting in the cabinet.
(17:51):
People are starting to seefaces coming up in the veil or curtain,
but she's tied to a chair, sohow could she be doing all this stuff?
Right. Yeah.
Some were super convinced thisis spirits. She's manifesting spirits.
This is for realsies. Otherswere like, it's like a magician's
trick. She can untie herselfquickly, move her face around, and
then tie herself back upquickly before we have a chance to
(18:13):
walk over there and look. Mm,interesting. Like you said, it's
doing a lot to prove theessence of spirits, right?
Yes. It's Also, she is doingthis in a way that is boldly more
powerful than a lot of otherpeople at the time. So she's doing
it in a way that would invite scrutiny.
(18:33):
Yes, agreed.
And you would think that ifyou were, like, really not real,
maybe you would just want tofly in the middle, be, like, good
enough, but not the best. Youknow what I'm saying?
Right.
I don't know. I just feel likeI would do less if I was lying.
Yeah, that's true. Right. Andso the use of a spirit cabinet wasn't
first used by Florence theDavenport Brothers, which is another
(18:53):
big name in this wholetimeframe. With the help of their
spirit guide, John King. Soundfamiliar? And the suggestion from
an audience member at one oftheir seances, they created the spirit
cabinet in the 1850s. And I'vealso seen that they may have gotten
the idea from a combination ofplaces. So not just the two I've
discussed. John Coons and hisfamily were also a big name during
(19:17):
this time, and they createdsomething called a spirit room after
being ordered to do so byspirits. The Coons family was likely
also inspired by this nextone, and that's the famous Fox sisters.
And you may have heard of thembefore. They claimed that they can
communicate with the dead inthe late 1840s. So between all of
these people, she was able toget her spirit cabinet going.
(19:40):
And we actually talked aboutthem in our original ghost episode.
Made a little section on spiritualism.
Yep. Yeah. I was like, I know.The name has popped up also.
Episode three.
We love episode three.
We love episode three.
But their name comes up a lotif you look up spiritualism.
Oh, yeah.
Fox Sisters is a really bigone. Davenport Brothers is a big
one. I hadn't really heard ofthe Koons family very much, but after
(20:01):
reading a bit of their story,like, it totally makes sense.
Absolutely. So people flockedto see Florence's abilities, and
you would think perhaps it'sjust because of the wondrous things
she could do. Of course not.We can't have anything fucking interesting
and good without people beingfucking creepy.
Yeah.
Sometimes spirits would tossher in the air, and on one occasion,
they ripped off her clothing.And so these occasions may have been
(20:24):
before she was doing theseances at home, because before that,
she was doing them at theDalston Society. And that's where
we think it may have gotten tobe a bit too much.
Yeah. Yeah. I believe her momstepped in, was like, maybe we should
just do these at home.
Absolutely. So Florence workedat a school at the time And I can't
even imagine like nowadaysbeing able to be a full ass person
(20:46):
with like intense spiritualbeliefs that are public.
Yeah.
While working like that. Justlike in a public setting like that.
And with children involved,people would not have it, but. So
some of the girls at theschool were unsettled by, quote,
Ms. Cook's spirits, which is sad.
Yeah.
And the parents didn't wantanything to happen while they were
there. So they all. So she wasultimately let go from the school,
(21:08):
which is very sad becauseshe's doing this other thing, presumably
not just for herself. Right.She's making money from it, but not
enough where she could quither day.
Job, clearly at first, at least.
Like if she's making enough asa medium, she wouldn't be like, I'm
going to still be a teacher.But, you know. So we get to 1872
and during one of her Cabinetevents, a face appears and announced
that it was Katie King. And soas time went on and as the seances
(21:31):
continued, more and more ofKatie began to appear. Eventually
her entire body could be seenwrapped in a thin white cloth. This
happened over and over andover again. So once she fully materialized,
she came back. Typically itwould take as long as 30 minutes.
The curtain would part and thefigure of Katie would emerge. Usually
(21:53):
she was dressed in white andlooked pale. And people presumed
that Florence was still in thecabinet, unconscious. Sometimes onlookers
would hear Florence sobbing ormoaning inside the cabinet. It's
also interesting, the idea ofcalling her unconscious when she's
in a trance, because there'sno reason why she should necessarily
be unconscious.
Right.
But it could be that she'smeditating so intensely that it seems
(22:15):
as though she is. But eitherway. So at first Katie would only
smile and nod from a distance.But after a few more appearances,
she started walking around andtalking to the guests. She became
an attraction, not surprisingat all. And people would travel to
come see her. But some peoplethought that she looked a lot like
Florence. And I think it'sfascinating that she was kind of
(22:35):
a flirt. She would be flirtingwith people. She's sitting on people's
laps. She is out living it up,taking in the attention.
And from what I understand,that was not Florence's personality
at all. Yes, agreed. So onDecember 9th of 1873, a lawyer named
William Volkman, lots ofWilliams, was invited to one of the
(22:57):
seances with some of hisfriends. He saw a lot of similarities
between Florence and Katieimmediately, and it kind of pissed
him off. So he got super duperangry. He grabbed Katie as she was
interacting with some of theother guests. And he grabbed her
arm and then held her at herwaist. Ew. And then he started screaming
out that it was just Florencein a disguise. Now, Katie managed
(23:18):
to get away. She scratched himin kind of like a fight to get freed.
Also, Florence's fiance at thetime was present, Edward corner.
And he helped, along with someof the friends of the cook family
that were present, to, like,help her get free. Yeah. A lot of
people also believe that itmight have been dangerous to interfere
with the apparition,Especially if they were being materialized
(23:39):
through another person. Likemaybe causing that link to go away
or harm the person. Theyweren't sure. But I did think that
that was interesting becauseKatie was said to interact with guests
and, like, sit on their lapand stuff. So, like, was there a
limit?
Maybe it's like, stripperrules. They could touch you, but
you can't touch them.
Maybe.
Maybe it's one thing to betouching. Interfering is like holding
(24:00):
you.
Right.
You can't get up and go backshould you want to.
And a lot more emotion. Idon't know. Maybe to change that
link.
Yeah.
But for whatever reason, hegrabbed her. She got away. Now, one
of the guests that werepresent said that the spirit then
vanished out of thin air fromthe feet upward. That's what they
remember seeing. Now, Volkmanstormed into the other room where
(24:21):
the cabinet was, opened up thedoor, opened the curtain, and he
sees Florence still tied up.But they did note her hair and clothing
were a little messed up. Theywere a little disheveled. Yeah.
But keep in mind that duringthese people had said she was moaning
and sobbing, so it's notaltogether strange that she might
be thrashing about possibly.
Now, this event created twosides. People that very much believed
(24:45):
in Florence's abilities, andthen a lot more skeptics. Florence
decided that she needed toprove herself. So she contacted our
sciency friend, William crooks.
You know, the guy who helpedinvent the x ray.
Yes.
A science, science. A science,science guy.
Right. A piece of the x ray.But he did find the element. He's.
He's a science guy. Peoplereally respected him.
(25:06):
Maybe he was your favoritescientist. Favorite scientist. He
was that level of scientist.
Yes. Yes. So people really,really trusted him because he was
so accomplished. He had alsorecently lost his brother, and that
gave him a bigger interest inpsychical research because of it.
Now he was stoked to work withFlorence. He's like, yeah, we're
(25:29):
gonna do sciency things toprove that this is real.
Who fucking wouldn't be? SoWilliam invited Florence to come
stay at his home with his wifeand his children.
Yes.
Good to know. Hey, come livewith. It's weirder if he's single,
right?
Yeah, I guess.
Ish.
Ish. I mean, we'll talk about it.
Yeah, we'll get there. We'llget there. So William had already
(25:49):
built a room designed toconduct tests and experiments under
controlled conditions,because, again, like I said earlier,
and like Amanda mentioned, alot of spiritualists were building
their own spaces. So fair thatto make sure that there was nothing
afoot, you would create thespace. One of the experiments he
did was to have Florence laydown on a couch behind a curtain
(26:11):
and wrap a shaw around herface. And the shawl was thought to
protect her from the lights.Then Katie appeared in front of the
curtain. So separate from her,William checked to make sure that
Florence was still laying downon the couch. And she was, but she
had the shawl on her face, sohe couldn't make sure it was Florence
underneath. It could have justbeen someone there. Interesting.
Another test included anelectrical setup. Florence was placed
(26:33):
with an electric circuitconnected with a resistance coil
and a galvanometer. Hoping Isaid it right. Anyway, the movements
of the meter were shown in theother room where other people were
watching. If she moved thewires, the meter would have fluctuated.
Supposedly, nothing suspiciousever showed during the test. Additionally,
at one point, they had Katieput her hands in a chemical solution,
(26:55):
which, if the wires had beenon her, it would have caused an increase
in electrical current. Hmm.
Interesting. Very sciency wayto do this.
Yeah, it's all science.Science, you know? So, since the
meter never changed, Williamsaid that it indicated that the hands
placing the chemical solutioncould not have belonged to Florence.
Interesting.
Yes. William also reportedthat Florence was able to manifest
(27:16):
Katie during theseexperiments, even when she was bound
not only with her normal ropeknots, but also with tape and rope
and knots sealed with wax. Sothe wax would have cracked if it
had been untied.
Right. And there was a varietyof experiments. We just focused on
a couple, but there was a lot done.
Yeah. He also said that at onepoint, Katie even walked him over
(27:38):
to see Florence while she wasin a trance on the floor.
Interesting.
Mm.
I find it strange that she wasable to make it to the floor if they
kept tying her up, becausethen, like, the couch situation seemed
like she wasn't tied up. So itseems like sometimes she was and
sometimes she wasn't.
I would imagine that hestarted with her on a couch. Laying
there with a shawl on herface. And then increased them in
(27:59):
severity. Right? Because like,why do a very rigorous scientific
test if she can't even pass abasic one?
That's fair. So he mentionedthat the two women, so Katie and
Florence did look similar, butthere were also a lot of differences.
For instance, Katie was tallerthan Florence. Florence had dark
hair and Katie's was a goldenauburn. Florence also tended to bite
(28:22):
her nails. But when he lookedat Katie's nails, they seemed to
appear normal, so not bitten off.
There was even a part whereFlorence was sick, like she had chest
congestion. And he listened toher chest with a stethoscope and
he listened to Katie's chestand it was clear.
That's interesting.
It was like within a few hoursof one another. And like that she
(28:42):
was like a foot taller.
Right?
Like not just a little. Shewas like one human head taller, if
you will, is kind of how hedescribed it. But I was like, that's
not two inches.
How many 12 year old boys though?
Oof, I don't know. Human headis like 10 inches. That's what, almost
1/5 of a 12 year old boy. Idon't even need a fucking calculator
anymore. That's how like muchof a.
(29:03):
This is the most proud she'sever been.
I was just like. I'm a. I wasgoing to say a 12 year old boy mathematician,
but I do not want that title.That sounds like something you would
get in a lot of trouble for.And I just like their height. That's
not weird at all.
You know what's funny is ifsomeone has found us recently and
we're always talking about 12year old boys, but has no idea why.
(29:26):
Please. It's in our lake.Linear episode. Somebody measured
something with a 12 year old boy.
Yes, yes. That's where it camefrom. Any newbies? That's what happened.
Okay, so yeah, there were,there were differences. Very strange.
Now, William published hisfindings in a report in 1874. In
the report he said, quote, Ihave the most absolute certainty
that Ms. Cook and Katie aretwo separate individuals so far as
(29:50):
their bodies are concerned.Okay, okay. He knows their bodies.
Okay.
Now, during his tests, he usedfive cameras and was able to capture
55 photos. So that's also whywe had it in our spirit photography
episode originally is becausewe were talking a lot about photos.
Yes. Now there are rumors thatsome of these photos still may be
(30:10):
out there today. However, alot of them seem to have been destroyed
along with the negatives. AndI've Seen two different times, either
right before William died in1919, or some sources said that his
heirs destroyed them after hisdeath. But I have seen some sources
claim that they're out there,and we've seen a few of them online.
Yeah.
But also I saw one source thatclaimed to even maybe have one of
(30:32):
them, and I was like, ooh, letus see. But they didn't talk anything
more, so just interesting. Thephotos are not great quality, but
there are some of him standingnext to Katie and then standing next
to Florence. And one even mayhave showed Katie and Florence together,
but Florence was kind ofslumped over and still in her trance.
Also, again, didn't look likeshe was tied up in this photo. And
(30:54):
in that photo, too, you can'treally see Katie's face at all. It's
covered. It's under, like, awhite sheet of sorts. So hard to
tell who's who or, like, ifthere's a different person who could
know. Now, his report justfueled both sides of the argument,
whether they were believers or skeptics.
I think that's fair, because Ithink that either way, you're either
like, they fooled a man ofscience or you're, like, a man of
(31:17):
science.
Proved it.
It's one of the twotechnically. But is it? So Florence
also announced that Katie waspreparing to go for good, and there
were several seances forpeople to say goodbye. What's really
interesting is that when youread William's account of things,
he says that from the verybeginning, Katie was very clear that
(31:38):
she would be there for three years.
Yeah.
And she was, like, true to herword. So the book Mystical Forces
by Camille Flammarion, whichwas published in 1909, included details
about William's experienceswith, quote, Ms. Cooke and Katie.
Isn't it interesting how hecalls Florence Ms. Cook, even though
she's living with him, knowshis family like he knows her, but
(32:00):
she's Ms. Cook, and Katie is Katie.
He likes Katie.
He likes Katie. So he recountsthat before Katie left, she and William
spent some time alone in thecabinet together, and that they closed
the little curtain thing sonobody could see it.
Where was Florence?
And there's no accounts ofwhat they talked about. And have
you seen the memes that arelike, find yourself someone who looks
(32:21):
at you like this dog looks at,like, a plate of lasagna? Of course.
Yeah.
Find yourself someone whowrites about you the way that William
writes about Katie.
But photography is asinadequate to depict the perfect
beauty of Katie's face aswords are powerless to describe her
charms of Manner photographymay indeed give a map of her countenance,
(32:45):
but how can it reproduce thebrilliant purity of her complexion
or the ever varying expressionof her most mobile features, now
overshadowed with sadness whenrelating some of the bitter experiences
of her past life? Not smilingwith all the innocence of a happy
girlhood when she hadcollected my children round her and
(33:07):
was amusing them by recountinganecdotes of her adventures in India.
Sir, that doesn't sound likescience. Also, earlier we said golden
auburn hair. That was hisdescription of her golden auburn
hair. Yeah, I mean it's a gooddescription, but. Sir.
Sir. Right. And what wasKatie's? Just dark.
Yeah, yeah. So Williamexplained that after he and Katie
(33:31):
had some cabinet time, shewalked over to Florence where she
was lying on the floor in atrance, leaned over and said, wake
up, Flurry, wake up. I mustleave you now. And after Florence
woke up, she begged Katie tostay and Katie responded, my dear,
I can't. My work is done. Godbless you. And so they talked for
a few minutes and then one ofthe things they did talk about during
their cabinet time was thatKatie asked William to help care
(33:54):
for Flurry because she knewshe would be upset and to like help
calm her down. So after Katieand Florence talked for a little
bit, eventually Florencecouldn't even talk, she was crying
so hard. And William came overand like consoled her and he was
talking to her and then helooks up and Katie's gone. Presumably
William is heartbroken.Afterwards, Florence took some time
off to spend time with her newhusband, Elkie Horner. And you don't
(34:15):
really hear much about herspiritualist life after that.
Not for a while, not for abit. But it's the same guy that freed
Katie when the other man hadgrabbed her. So they ended up getting
married. Yeah, now she's takentime off. Well, in Philadelphia,
Katie appeared to come out ofa spirit cabinet again, but this
was with different people. Sheappeared in Nelson and Jenny Holmes
(34:37):
apartment. The couple'sassistant announced that it was the
same Katie from London. Almostimmediately, Katie and the Holmes
couple got super popular inthe us. They started selling out
two seances a night and theycharged a dollar per person. There
were also photos taken andshown to people at a price. Additionally,
this is very sad. There was akidnapping of a four year old named
(34:59):
Charlie Ross in Philadelphiaaround this time. People were like,
we got someone that is totallygoing to help us with this. And this
is the couple and Katiebecause you know, they're mediums
and Katie's Katie. They'regoing to help us. Well, the three
of them did not seeminterested and did not help.
Of course not.
Which caused some people to bea little more skeptical. They're
(35:20):
like, wait a minute, whywouldn't they help us find this kid?
Like, this is. This is important.
One of the things that peoplethink with this kind of stuff, that
you can force whatever you'reinteracting with to do what you want
and to act in a dime. And it'snot surprising that they aren't like,
and now we're going to fightall crime now that they shouldn't
help.
Right, right. And sometimesmediums can help with stuff like
that, while others aren'treally in tune to that part of it.
(35:42):
Yeah.
But anyways, there's. There'sgoing to be more with them. So newspapers
started to question why theyweren't helping. And more skeptics
started talking about whyKatie seemed to look a little different
than she did in London. Forinstance. She aged a few years.
Interesting.
She also did not have the sameaccent of someone who would have
lived 200 years ago. So the USpeople are like, I'm not buying the
(36:02):
story. Well, then In Januaryof 1875, a woman named Eliza White
comes forward, and she saysthe couple had hired her at $2 a
show to play Katie.
Hmm.
Now, before she came out totell her story, she actually tried
to extort the couple for moremoney. And when they wouldn't give
her more money, she decided togo to the press with her story.
(36:24):
Interesting.
So I think they were like, oh,look at how much money she made.
She's taking time off. Perhapswe could steal the idea of Katie
and make some money off of it.
Yeah. I mean, what an idea. Soalthough Katie was shown to not appear
in the US People still wereunsure of what was happening in London.
Again, William was a smartman. How could he be fooled? Some
people speculate that he wasso upset about his brother's passing
(36:46):
that he wanted to prove thatspiritualism was real. So he was
incredibly biased. Or maybethat she charmed him enough that
she was able to trick him.Others believe he faked it because
he was having an affair withher. He wasn't writing about Florence
that way.
He wasn't. But at the sametime, I want to say his wife was
like, super pregnant with,like, their 10th kid or something.
So it's kind of sad.
(37:06):
Yeah. I mean, again, I said hewas married. My dude. My fucking
dude.
And then Florence had a fiance.
Yeah. Yeah. And also, I mean,presumably he's a wealthy doctor,
if that's what she wanted, youknow, and not to prove herself. Anyway,
Florence began doing seancesagain in 1880 and materialized a
new spirit named Marie. Butlike the other altercation that Katie
(37:28):
had had, a man named SirGeorge Sitwell noticed something
strange in Marie's clothes andgrabbed her. He held on and then
went to look at Florence'schair, which was empty. She later
claimed that her powers weredisappearing, and she didn't want
to upset her followers. Afterthis, Florence would only do seances
if someone was tied up withher to prove she didn't get up. Interesting.
(37:48):
Yeah.
A woman named FlorenceMarriott was tied to her during one
of the seances and said thatshe was tied to Florence the entire
time. But despite this, herfollowing started to dim down, and
she gave her last seance in1899. She agreed to do it under test
conditions in Berlin. Mariematerialized, and it was said to
be a really great showing.Then, five years later, Florence
(38:10):
died in 1904. Katie has comeup a few times in seances over the
years, including in 1903 inCanada and in Rome in 1974.
Isn't that bizarre?
Yes, it is.
So with that being said, whatdo you think? Do you think Florence
was telling the truth and shewas able to materialize Katie, or
(38:30):
do you think the whole thingwas a hoax?
I do not think it was a hoax.I'll explain more in a second, but
I want to know what you think.
So I think she may have hadsome abilities. And the thing that
we didn't really bring up is,as far as the theories go, she had
a sister or maybe two, andsome think, like, oh, maybe it was
her sister, or maybe it wassomeone else. The method of doing
(38:50):
it is very strange to me.Still, even knowing that it was,
like, a common practice, itmaybe it's just too foreign to us
to think of doing somethingthat way. Like, that's a lot.
Yeah.
But it is interesting thatthey looked similar. But, I mean,
photos can be deceiving. Howtall or short someone is, too. So
I'm, like, perfectly in themiddle. I think maybe she did have
some abilities. I don't knowif she was materializing Katie the
(39:12):
whole time, but it did seemlike their personalities were wildly
different. And the thought ofhaving a spirit guide, I do truly
think of stuff like that. AndI think people have the ability to
communicate with spirit guidesand perhaps know things that there's
no way of them knowing. So,again, I'm, like, firmly in the middle.
Okay. So I think she was atulpa. Ooh.
Okay.
(39:32):
I think she is one of theearliest instances of a fucking Tulpa.
I love that.
And. And hear me out on this,because when you are thinking Tulpa
creation, we're talkingintense meditation, right? Tulpas.
We've got a full episode onTulpas. We've got a full episode
on Tulpamancy. This is notgoing to substitute for that. But
(39:53):
if you have listened to thoseepisodes, you are visualizing this
person, right? Their details,everything about them, all of these
things. Is it possible thatshe was a medium and communicated
with Katie King? Abso fuckinglutely. Is it possible that she took
those things that she knewabout Katie King and visualized her
(40:13):
and thought about her andmanifested her in the world as a
Tulpa, as a unique thoughtform and creature?
I love this idea.
Perhaps. Perhaps. Now, doesthat mean that the Katy King that
she knew as her spirit guidethat existed in not the physical
world, is the same one thatshe pulled through into the physical
world, or did she create theone in the physical world? I don't
(40:35):
fucking know. But think aboutthis father, John King. He was one
of the spirits that camethrough with Jenny Holmes and that
seance in 1875. John King wasHelena Blavatsky's thought form.
We talked about HelenaBlavatsky in our Tulpa episode. She
is, for all intents andpurposes, the mother of this theosophy
(40:57):
movement, which is where ourmodern ideas of Tulpas come from,
which is a mixture of TibetanBuddhism and theosophy. So the original
ideas that we have aboutthought forms and the ability to
manifest beings from ourthoughts, the person who made that
up, that thought form, wastheoretically the father of Katie.
That's so bizarre. Like,that's cool that it just, like, wrapped
(41:18):
around mindfuck.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it did. Ifyou're thinking. So. Original writings
on Topless, as we think aboutthem today, came out in 1929. This
is like over 30 years before.Yeah, this ever happened. So it's
just so fucking interesting tome. When we think about spirits and
we think about what people seeand how manifesting works like a
full apparition, is itpossible she was doing something
(41:41):
fully separate? Andfurthermore, if you're thinking that
astral projection happens whenyou're asleep, she was projecting
her thought form from theastral plane while she was asleep,
because she was a fuckingsleep, not simply meditating or in
a trance. Good day.
Good day. I love it. I love it.
And a cherry on top.
Another thing. I mean, youbring up a Good point. If they were
(42:03):
sort of connected in any wayoutside of, you know, Tulpa. Because
I actually do love that idea.
Yeah.
But also, if someone gets intothat state where they're allowing
someone to take over, in a sense.
Yes.
Perhaps that's what she wasdoing. So in her mind, she wasn't
lying. She was still there.
Yes.
In her cabinet. But maybeKatie took over and has a whole different
(42:27):
personality. And maybe thehair color did look a little different,
or maybe she was a little bittaller because she stood up straighter
or, you know, like, whateverit may be.
Oh, absolutely. A full headtaller. I mean, when you're thinking
of it like that, it could evenbe dissociative identity disorder.
Yeah.
Where she. Again, absolutely.I mean, either one, she's possessed.
Possible, or she hasdissociative identity disorder. And
(42:50):
this altar is fully different.And when she stands up taller, she's
closer to the light, so itlooks like she has golden hair. And
you can see it better. And youcan see the red in her hair because
she's closer to the light.
Yeah. That could be justthinking about, like, sometimes people
are like, okay, I can writewhen a spirit's having me write.
My brain hurts thinking aboutall this.
(43:10):
They could have a spirit talkthrough them in certain instances.
What if. Yeah, she was justbeing taken over and allowing it
to happen and not knowing thatshe was anywhere else? In a sense.
Yeah.
Right. She was in. In theweird trance state. So there's so
many different theories. Ilove all of them, though. I do, too.
And I think that this is oneof my. Honestly, one of my favorite
episodes that we've ever donewhere we're talking about mediumship
(43:33):
and ghosts, because it's like,well, fuck, we have so many witnesses.
Yes.
So she was either one hell ofa fucking showman or question mark.
Yes. And something that I kindof hinted towards at the beginning
is this era is also when magicstarted getting really popular. So,
like, names like Houdini andthings like that were. Were tightly
(43:55):
interwoven in this. I want tosay that Houdini even proved some
wrong and, like, was like, mm,I'm good at this. I know when someone's
deceiving us.
Yes.
But a lot of people saw magicand saw spiritualism and is like,
oh, one and the same. And thensome people were like, no, that's
like a trick that they're ableto pull on you without you knowing.
(44:15):
So it's just interesting thata lot of the skeptics are like, it's
the same timeframe. Whenmagic's getting popular. So it's
a sleight of hand in a way.
I find it so fascinating though.
Yeah.
I really do love it.
I do too. So, of course, withall of that being said, we want to
know what you think. Have youheard of this before? And do you
think that Florence and Katieare two separate people?
(44:35):
Yeah. Yeah.
Or do you think it was a hoaxand why?
Yes. Or do you think she's athought form?
Yes. I love it. I love all ofthem. I can't wait to hear what people
say.
I love all of them. Me too.
So with that, we hope you havea great weekend.
Thanks for creeping with us.Thanks for listening and as always,
a special thank you to ourpatrons who support us via Patreon.
(44:58):
Please see the link in ourshow notes to learn more about how
you yes, you can begin tohaunt the dump, guard vortexes, or
even become a scorching Sasquatch.
Also in our show notes you canfind the link to our website, more
information on our sources,our social media handles and our
merch store.
We'd love for you to keepcreeping with us, so if you like
this episode, pleasesubscribe, rate, review and share
(45:20):
the show with your fellowcreeps and or ghosts.
I beg of you. Hi tt welcome toTrue Creeps. It's all science.
Science.
You know.
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