The Murders of Pauline Reade, John Kilbride, Keith Bennett, Lesley Ann Downey, and Edward Evans (The Moor Murders)

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Hi, welcome to True Creeps,where the stories are true and the
creeps are real.
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The possibly plausibleparanormal to horrifying history
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Everything else that goes bumpin the night. We're your hosts, Amanda,
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And we want you to join uswhile we creep.
We cover mature topics.Listener discretion is advised.

(00:29):
Hey, everyone. Today we'regoing to be talking about the Moore's
murders. And this caseactually was a recommendation of
one of our patrons, Chloe. Sothank you.
Thank you, Chloe.
Our topic today involvesmurders against children. If you've
been creeping with us for aminute, you know that when we talk
about any type of violenceagainst children, we're a bit less
silly. The episodes are moreserious. Not to say that there won't

(00:51):
be breaks here and there forsome levity for our own sake. We
did plenty of chatting beforewe started recording today because
we got our warped tourtickets. And then we're planning
our second spooky trip whichis going to happen next year. And
we'll tell you all about thatwhen we tell you all about that.
Again, today's case is withchildren. So if that's not something
you want to hear, you mightwant to skip today's episode. The
judge that was overseeing thiscriminal trial described the murders

(01:14):
as, quote, two sadistickillers of the utmost depravity.
And the murders themselvestook place in Manchester, England.
To tell the story of thiscase, we're going to start with the
killers histories, whathappened once their lives converged,
and then about the murders. Asalways, we will discuss each victim
and we will share as muchinformation as we possibly could
find about them. Thesehappened decades ago, so some of

(01:38):
the information is hard tocome by. The victims of the Moore
murders were Pauline Reed,John Kilbride, Keith Bennett, Leslie
Ann Downey and Edward Evans.
So the first person we'regoing to discuss is one of the murderers
and his name is Ian Brady.Now, Ian Brady was born on January
2nd of 1938 in Glasgow. Hisoriginal last name was Duncan, but

(01:59):
when he was in his late teens,he took his stepfather's last name,
which was Brady. There wereaccusations that Brady, like many
other serial killers, abusedanimals. One instance is that he
bragged about killing a catwhen he was just 10, which is fucking
awful. There's also reportsthat he burned a cat alive, decapitated
rabbits and would stone dogs.I don't even know what I would do

(02:21):
if I caught a kid doing that.
I have no idea if you see akid hurting other things, something's
wrong.
Yes, yes.
That's not normal kid behavior.
No.
But what do you do most serialkiller stories where you know, like
a lot about the killer?There's always stories about what
they were doing to animalswhen they were kids. I don't know

(02:41):
what I would do if I saw a kiddo that, because it's like, oh, no,
what will you become? Or is it fixable?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'veyelled at neighbor kids for taking
toads and dropping them. Like,I can't imagine someone actually,
like, doing something withmalicious intent, you know?
Yeah.
Brady asserted that theallegations of animal abuse were
absolutely false, which weknow better. Right. He Left school

(03:03):
at 15 and he worked at ashipyard. Then afterwards, he ended
up working for a butcher.During his teenage years, he got
into trouble with the law agood amount of the time. Twice he
appeared in juvenile court forbreaking into homes. He appeared
in court for threatening histhen girlfriend, Evelyn Grant, with
a knife because she dancedwith another boy.
Get fucked.

(03:24):
He also stole a bag of leadseals. He received a two year sentence
for the theft and the threatto his ex girlfriend. By the time
he got out In November of1957, he was almost 20 years old.
Brady worked in a job thatincluded manual labor, then at a
brewery, where he waseventually fired. He decided to learn
how to be a bookkeeper andspent hours studying in his room

(03:45):
with a set of instructionmanuals from a local Libra. Brady
got a clerical job atMillwards Merchandising, which was
a wholesale chemicaldistribution company in Gorton. During
this time, he rode a tiger cubmotorcycle and seemed too interested
in Germany and Nazis. Never agood sign.
Never a good sign.
Brady met Myra at Millwards.So we're going to talk about Myra

(04:08):
for a bit, then talk aboutwhat happened once they got together.
Myra Henley was born on July23rd of 1942 in Cromsel. And her
father Bob was known to be analcoholic and just a relatively,
like, tough guy. And from whatwe saw, it seemed like he expected
Hindley to be tough too. And Ijust think that's interesting because

(04:30):
we're talking about, like the1950s, and that seems pretty at odds
with how most people wereraising women. It was normally like,
oh, you want delicate ladylike behavior in the 1950s, but in
one instance when Hindley wasjust 8 years old, she ran to her
dad crying because a boyscratched her in her cheeks. And
he did it so hard that he drewblood. And from the story that we

(04:53):
saw Bob told Hindley that shehad to retaliate and told her that
if she didn't go retaliateagainst the boy who scratched her,
that he would leather her ifshe didn't. Which we are assuming
means hit her with a belt.
Yeah.
So Hindley did retaliate. Shewent after the boy and knocked him
down after punching himseveral times. When she wrote about

(05:15):
this later, she would talkabout this as her first win. The
first job that Henley ever hadwas at a local electrical engineering
firm where she was a juniorclerk. And she also took judo lessons
each week, but found thatpeople were a bit reluctant to spar
with her because she got areputation for being unnecessarily
slow when she would releaseher grip on people.
Not a good sign.

(05:35):
Unsettling. Yeah. Haley beganworking at Millwards as a typist
in January of 61, and that'swhere she met Brady. She became obsessed
with him quickly, but shedidn't really talk to him until July
of 1961. So more than half ayear after she had started working
there. Bizarre.
Yeah.
So Hindley's diary entries gointo detail about how fascinated

(05:56):
and enamored she was by him.Hindley and Brady's first date was
in December of 1961. And theywent to the movies. Many of their
dates were them going to themovies, then going back to Henley's
house where they would drinkGerman wine together. Some sources
say that they went to see Xrated films, which are not what we
think of today as X ratedfilms. They're more like NC17 or

(06:20):
rated R movies today. Rated Xjust meant that no one under 16 could
be in the theater. When I readthat, I was like, oh. And I was like,
oh, no, no, it's not that.
It sounds more intense.
Yeah. No, it's just like arated R movie.
Yeah.
But not surprisingly, thingsgot pretty weird with them pretty
fast. Part of the routine thatthey developed would be that Brady
would give Hindley books toread, which, like, okay, that's not

(06:42):
so we. Weird.
No.
But they began readingaccounts of Nazi atrocities to each
other out loud.
That's weird.
And to make it worse, theywere doing this during their lunch
breaks, which, like, I can'timagine being in that break room
being like, I'm sorry, I'mjust trying to fucking eat my sandwich
over here. Can you fucking not?
Right.
It's one thing to be talkingabout current events. It's another

(07:05):
thing to be like, let's talkabout the fucking worst of the worst
every day during our break.Keep in mind, this is less than 20
years after World War IIended, so it's. It's still like,
fresh, fresh. So little bylittle, Hindley then began to change
her appearance so she wouldfit more Aryan beauty ideals. She
started wearing brightlipstick, she bleached her hair.

(07:25):
And she also started to changeher style too. She began to wore
more risque stuff, which waslike short skirts and leather jackets
with high boots, which, liketoday, not so big of a deal. But
then that was a big deal.We're talking about 60s. A stark
change from who she was. Yeah,it seems H knew that there was something
off about Brady pretty earlyinto their relationship because he

(07:46):
drugged her. She wrote aletter to a friend about the incident,
but in the same letter, shewas very clear that her infatuation
continued despite him druggingher. And in the letter, she like,
very clearly discusses theinstance of him drugging her. Now,
several months after thisletter, she reaches out to her friend
and begs her to destroy theletter. But from my understanding,

(08:07):
she did not, which I alsowould not. If a friend was like,
here's a horrible thing mypartner did to me. Yeah, please destroy
the letter. I'd be like, I.Yeah, I'm going to totally destroy
that. Yeah, it's totally gone,right? I didn't, like, keep it.
Put it in a safe.
Yeah, yeah, fucking put it ina safety deposit box. No, keeping
it for. Especially because nowyou've asked me to destroy it. Things

(08:28):
are super sketch.
Yes. So Hindley began going tolocal shooting ranges. One of the
friends that she met throughthis was George Clitheroe. George
was the president of theCheadle Rifle Club. He helped Hindley
buy a.22 rifle. However,George did thwart her attempts at
joining the pistol club, whichis weird. He's helping her buy a

(08:48):
gun, then he's like, no, don'tjoin this. Nevertheless, she was
able to purchase two pistolsfrom the people that were in the
pistol club. During this time,Hindley would also rent vans because
she and Brady had a very weirdhobby and that was planning bank
robberies.
Fucking weird, right?
Like that. That's strange.Like to go to the point where you're
going to rent a van. But,like, they never went through with

(09:09):
it. So bizarre, strange hobby.So the pair then began getting really
interested in photography. AndBrady already had a camera. It was
a box brownie, to be exact,which we talked about some of these
cameras last week, and it isone that I actually own, by the way.
He upgraded to a better modeland he ended up getting more equipment.

(09:30):
So he bought lights andmaterials to develop his own film,
So a lot of stuff that heneeded to do this. Hindley was relatively
modest before this, and thepair began taking photos that at
the time would have beenconsidered explicit. At this time,
Hindley was living with hergrandmother, and that was on Bannock
street in Gorton. Brady movedin with them in June of 1963. So

(09:53):
it was her. Her grandmother,and then Brady joined them. On July
12th of 1963, Brady andHindley murdered their first victim,
and that was Pauline Reed.Now, a little bit about Pauline.
Pauline was born on February18th of 1947 to Amos and Joan Reed.
When she was 15, she leftschool so that she could work with
her father, and that was atSharples Bakery. Pauline was close

(10:16):
to her brother, whose name wasPaul, and he was just a year younger
than her. She was Catholic andalso very deeply religious. She loved
dancing, music, as well aswriting songs and poems. She was
really cute. I'm not good atthose things. Her family said that
she had a great sense ofhumor. Seven months before her murder,
Pauline was one of the threewinners of a Christmas baking competition,

(10:40):
and her photo appeared in theGordon Reporter. So she was, like,
celebrating, and everyone wasso proud of her. She obviously, she
won that contest. She was atalented baker, which I love. Yeah.
So her niece Jackie, whounfortunately never got to meet her,
she actually kept one of hercookbooks, and inside of it, Pauline
wrote, this book belongs toPauline Reed. If this book gets lost,

(11:04):
smack its bum and send it home crying.
I love that.
That's so funny.
It's very. It's very cute. Ialso. I feel like you get an idea
of her humor.
Yes, yes. And it's cute thatthey called it, you know, a cookbook.
Like, it was her, like, recipebook. Adorable.
Yes.
One of her best friends, PatCummings, described her as being
shy and said that shetypically wouldn't get in a car of

(11:27):
a stranger. On the eveningthat Pauline was murdered, the girls
were planning on going to thedance with friends, but one of the
parents of the friends foundout that there was going to be alcohol
there. So a lot of the parentswere like, no, no, no, you can't
go anymore.
Which, like, seems fair,especially we're talking 1960s.
Exactly. Yeah. They're like,please don't go out and do bad things.

(11:48):
So Pauline's mother, Joan,didn't love the idea of her going
out on her own, but she knewhow excited Pauline was and that
she could trust her daughterto make it home before curfew. So
she's like, I know she's agood girl. She's gonna make good
choices. Okay. I understandthat there's going to be things I
don't love there, but you can go.
Yes.
In an interview after herdeath, Joan told a reporter that

(12:09):
right before Pauline left, sheput a necklace on Pauline and watched
her as she walked around thecorner outside. So she was walking
to the dance. That breaks my heart.
Heartbreaking. When we werereading that, I believe it was, like,
one of the mother's, like,favorite necklaces, too. And Pauline
was like, mom. And it was likethis very, like, special moment between

(12:30):
the two of them, which. Notthat you ever want to have a last
moment with your child, butI'm glad it was a positive and sweet
moment.
Yeah. Yeah. It was a goodthing. Not like an argument or something
that they'd regret. So itended up that two of her friends
were still able to go to thedance, and they planned on surprising
her because at first theirparents were like, no, but then they

(12:51):
probably did the same thingand talked them into it, right? Yes.
So they saw her walking andthey really wanted to, you know,
surprise her, so they took ashortcut. And what they plan on doing
is kind of coming up to her,like, when they were closer to the
dance and surprising her andmaking her excited that everyone
else still got to go, too.When they didn't see her again, they
assumed that she decided notto go to the dance and possibly turned

(13:12):
around. One of her friendssaid later she had nightmares for
years about seeing Paulinewalking by herself for the last time.
So Pauline never made it tothat dance. She was just 16 when
she was murdered.
Fucking awful.
Terrible.
So let's get into Pauline'smurder. Early on the day of her murder,
which was July 12th of 1963,Henley reported that Brady told her

(13:35):
that he wanted to commit theperfect murder. So after they got
off work, Henley drove in thevan and Brady drove behind her on
his motorcycle. And he wouldsignal to Henley when he saw a potential
victim by flashing his headlights.
Ugh. Terrifying.
Yes. I mean, truly fucking horrifying.
Weird to use someone else'svan to do bad things.

(13:56):
Yeah. I would say bizarre, butalso, we're talking before DNA.
Yeah, that's true.
Wasn't like a known thing. Sonow I'm like, it feels like framing
someone. If you were to usesomebody else's vehicle.
Yeah.
Or like that, they would belike, yeah, Lindsay borrowed this.
Right.
But this is before peoplewould even have that concept. So

(14:17):
one of the first victims,Brady, flashes lights for to get
Hindley to stop. Hindleyrefused to stop for. And that was
because that potential victimwas one of her mother's neighbors
and was just 8 years old. Soit was after 7:30pm When Hindley
stopped and asked Pauline ifshe needed a ride. And again, Pauline
was on her way to the dance.And Hindley has given conflicting

(14:38):
statements as to whether itwas her or Brady that selected Pauline
as their first victim. Shedid, however, say that she believed
that there would be moreattention given to a young child's
disappearance than ateenager's, which still rings true
today. A teenage girl goesmissing, and police are like, she
ran away. Which will nevermake sense to me, because, no, absent

(15:01):
abuse or a substanceaddiction, I just don't think a teenage
child is going to say, youknow, I would like to start all over
with no documents and nomoney. It's just not a fucking thing
that makes any sense. No, weknow some of what happened because
the killers described whathappened. So Hindley asked Pauline
if she would help her find anexpensive glove that she had lost

(15:24):
at Saddle Wood Moore. When youthink English countryside, you're
thinking of Amor, with rollinghills and there's some water features
and trees. It's lovely. It's,like, generally just beautiful. So
she's like, I was there. Idropped one of my gloves. It was
super expensive. Could youhelp me find it? Pauline, being the
nice young lady that she is,is like, yeah, okay, yeah, I'll go

(15:49):
help you find your glove, eventhough I'm on the way to the dance
and I'm really close to it. SoHindley and Pauline got to Saddleworth
Moor, and then Brady showedup. Hindley told Pauline that he
was going to help them lookfor the glove. But then Brady and
Hindley went, you know, andstarted to walk around the moor to
look for that glove. Andthat's when she was murdered. The

(16:09):
cuts to Pauline's neck were sobad that she was nearly decapitated.
Hindley claimed that shestayed in the van until Brady came
back and got her, which wasabout a half hour after they arrived,
and that he then took Hindleyto where Pauline was laying dying
and her clothes were in just acomplete disarray. And per Henley,
she asked Brady whether heraped Pauline, to which he responded,

(16:33):
of course I did. Ugh, Fuck.
The worst of the worst.
The worst of the fuckingworst. Brady then went to go get
a shovel that he had hiddensomeplace in the moor so that he
could bury Pauline. And he hadhidden that shovel on a previous
visit. So this is clearlysomething he Was planning. Planning.
Cause it's not even like hejust had it in the van.
Yeah.
When Brady recounted whathappened, he said that Henley was

(16:55):
present for the murder andthat she also participated in Pauline's
sexual assault.
Ugh.
Now, Pauline actually went toschool with Henley's sister Maureen.
And so it's interesting thatthere's a connection there.
Yeah.
At the time of her murder,Pauline was dating a boy named David
Smith. And Smith had alreadybeen convicted of three minor crimes,

(17:15):
so police looked to him astheir initial suspect, but he was
cleared. And after that, they.They had a really hard time getting
any leads because no one hadseen Pauline right before she disappeared
other than her friendswalking. So nobody saw her get into
that van or saw that she waswith them. Yeah, she just disappeared.
That's scary. And how quicksomething can happen, you know, Minutes.

(17:36):
Yes. As you mentioned earlier,you know, she had that friend that
saw her, you know, walking andwas like, okay, I'll catch her at
the next block, or what have you.
Yeah.
And then she's just gone.
It stresses me out, like, how quick.
Things happen so fucking quick.
So then on November 23rd of1963, Brady and Hidley murdered John
Kilbride. And of course, we'regoing to talk about John, so a little

(17:59):
bit about him. John's parentswere Sheila and Patrick, and his
siblings were Patrick Jr,Terry, Sheila Jr. Maria, and Christopher.
So big family.
I love a lady junior. Ifucking love a lady junior.
You've said it before, too.You do.
I've said it before. We don'thave enough lady juniors.
Cute, though. Like, bigfamily. Love the names.

(18:19):
Yeah.
When talking about John, Terrysaid that all his siblings looked
up to him. John went to hisgrandmother's house every day to
check in on her and see if sheneeded any help. So just a good,
sweet boy. Right before hismurder, John had just been picked
to be on the football team andwas often overheard whistling. I
love intricate details aboutthe people that we talk about, too.

(18:41):
Like to really humanize them.Right. Like, they're not just a victim.
They were. Yeah. A boy wholoved football and loved a whistle.
Like it. It's so sad.
Yes. I want to picture Johnwalking down the street whistling
on his way to go visit hisgrandmother. Not the worst thing
that ever happened to him.
Yeah.
That's what I want to thinkof. And it just. It makes it more

(19:01):
real.
Yeah.
We talk about true crime alot, and so often we just don't.
We don't have this fullpicture of the victims, and we don't
Want people to ever to just bethe worst thing that ever happened
to them.
Yes, exactly. John was alsodescribed as being adventurous and
very trusting. John was just12 on the day of his murder. Earlier
that day, he had done someshopping for his grandmother. Again,

(19:24):
good, sweet boy.
Mm.
Afterwards, some of hisfriends had asked him to go to the
movies. So typical 12 yearold, right? Sheila urged John to
keep an eye out because ofPauline's recent disappearance. And
I can't even wrap my headaround knowing that something bad
just happened. Warning yourkid about it and then them being

(19:44):
part of it, it like, ugh, itturns my stomach.
I think it's important to notethat we are also very much before
the Stranger Danger era. Thatreally doesn't happen until we get
to the 70s and 80s. Peoplearen't really thinking about how
people are hurting kids as athing that happens that often. Not
that it doesn't happen. Andthere's obviously like fables and

(20:07):
folklore and beliefs andthings, but it's typically somebody
who's like, evil, not somebodywho lives in the neighborhood.
Yeah. During the trial, one ofJohn's friends, also named John,
recounted that they were atthe movies, then went to one of the
markets to do odd jobs. So hisfriend separated from John at one
point and unfortunately theynever saw him again. So same thing,

(20:29):
like in a matter of minutes,was just gone.
Yes.
So what happened is, in theearly evening of November 23, Brady
and Henley offered John a ridehome. They had met him in the market
and they had promised thatthey would give him a bottle of sherry
once they got into the van.Brady then suggested a series of
detours. The first would be togo to their home and get the bottle

(20:49):
of sherry. But first theyneeded to stop at Saddleworth more
to look for Henley's missingglove all over again. Henley waited
in the van at Saddleworthwhile Brady took John into the moor.
Brady sexually assaulted John,then attempted to cut his throat,
but was unsuccessful. He thenused a shoelace to strangle John

(21:10):
and buried him in a shallowgrave. Henley and Brady later returned
with Henley's dog namedPuppet. And Brady photographed Henley
and Puppet standing on theshallow grave.
Fucked. So fucked. Then thefollowing year, on June 16th of 1964,
Henley and Brady murderedKeith Bennett. So let's talk a little

(21:32):
bit about Keith. A few daysbefore his death, Keith turned 12
and he spent his 12th birthdaywith his family, who included his
mother, Winnie Johnson, whowas very pregnant. We're going to
talk a lot about her later inthe episode. His stepfather, Jimmy
Johnson, his younger SistersMargaret, Susan and Sylvia, and his
younger brothers, Ian andAllen. So again, another big family.
Yeah.
Keith was four and a half feettall and had glasses that he was

(21:55):
nearly blind without. Mosteveryone described him as a good
and pleasant kid who was oftendaydreaming. And that night he was
headed to spend the night athis grandmother's house. He was just
a few blocks away from hisgrandmother's house when he went
missing. He never shows up. Sothe next morning his grandmother
comes to the house and islike, hey, where's Keith? And she
assumed that he had changedhis mind about coming over and didn't

(22:16):
call.
Yeah.
This is in a time period inplace where a lot of people didn't
have phones in their homes. Soneither the parents nor the grandmother
had phones.
That makes sense.
So they couldn't just call.And he was just 12, so, you know,
he gets there and that's whenthe parents are like, what do you
mean he never got there?
I can't imagine, like the pitin your stomach, you know, the moment

(22:36):
the grandmother came over andit was like, he never made it. And
you're thinking, he's safe athis. At grandma's house, right?
Yes, yes. And again, it's thattime period before, like, walking
down the street wasn't safe.And even when you think about that,
my parents generation, whichwas like, be home before the streetlights
come on. And then there wasour generation where it was like,
okay, you can walk thisdistance by yourself. Where kids

(22:59):
would walk to school bythemselves and were relatively independent.
Now it's, I'm keeping my eyeson you. Like I have eyes on you.
Yeah.
Unless you are with anotheradult who I trust and they have eyes
on you. Yeah, but there areadult eyes on you most of the time
if you're out in the world.
It's sad that we've come tothat. Yeah. My kid's not allowed
to play outside in frontwithout me. It's just I don't trust

(23:22):
anyone.
It's awful. But back to Keith.In the early evening of June 16,
Hindley asked Keith if hecould help her load some boxes into
her van. And she said thatonce he was finished helping her,
she would give him a lifthome. So Brady was in the back of
the van when Keith got inagain. Hindley asked Keith if he
could help her find a lostglove. So the three headed to Saddleworth.

(23:43):
When they got there, Keithwent off with Brady to go look for
that glove. About a half hourlater, he comes back again. He has
that fucking shovel. Henleyasked him what he had done, and he
told her that he sexuallyassaulted him and then strangled
him with a string.
Oh, I hate it.
And so we're going to switchgears a little bit and take a pause
from talking about victimsbecause there's some other, I don't
want to say ancillary people,but they're related people who kind

(24:06):
of are in the universe ofwhat's happening. And you need to
know about this part to beable to understand the connection
between folks, correct?
Yes. So then on August 15th of1964, Henley's sister Maureen, we
talked about her, marriedDavid Smith when she was seven months
pregnant. And we alsomentioned David Smith before because

(24:28):
he was the one that was datingPauline when she was murdered. Now,
Maureen and David's weddingwas performed at the register office
with none of her family inattendance. Maureen and Smith then
moved into Smith's father'shome. And the next day they decided
to take a trip to Windermere.It's on this trip that Smith meets
Brady for the first time. Theywere big fans of one another. They

(24:51):
got along great. They chattedabout so many things. But some of
the notable topics includedhow wealth was distributed, society,
robbing banks, again, afavorite of theirs for some reason.
And you know, the typical getto know you topics.
Fucking wild. The first timeyou meet somebody and you're like,
let's talk about crimes. Now.It's one thing to be like, here are

(25:11):
the cases I'm involved with,because once you got a hyper fixation,
you've got a hyper fixation.But I feel like this is a heavy first
meeting conversation.
Right. And like, my. One of myfavorite things to do is to go rent
vans and plan robbing banks.What about you?
You know, like, yeah, yeah,fucking weird.
Smith and Brady startedgetting real chummy. And some sources

(25:32):
report that Hindley gotjealous of their blossoming relationship.
But she also was able to getcloser to her sister because the
couples began to hang outmore. Also in 1964, Henley and her
grandmother, plus Brady,remember, he moved in. They all moved
to Wardle Brook Avenue nearHyde. A young girl in the area named

(25:53):
Patricia Hodges, who lived afew doors down from them, began to
hang around them as well. Shewas just 11, so that's a little odd.
And they never harmed herbecause she lived too close to them.
I just find it very peculiar,the idea of adults hanging around
children when they don't have children.
Yes.

(26:13):
Now I say that with a personwho was married to a child magnet.
Like, children love Ben. Itjust happens.
I can attest to that. Yeah, yeah.
Like, they love him. Theythink he's great. He's so good with
kids. He also used to be ateacher, so it makes sense that he's
good with kids.
Yeah.
But also, like, there'schildren who live in our neighborhood.
They're not coming to ourhouse to hang out with him.

(26:35):
No.
That's a weird fucking thingto do.
That would be very strange.
And when we see that theywould hang out, like, she would come
over, like, watch TV with them.
Yeah.
That's bizarre. Bizarre. Verybizarre. And now parents would not
fucking allow that.
Absolutely not. No.
Yeah.
No. Never talk to anyoneunless I'm standing staring at you.
Yeah, Go ahead and go, likelive. Go hang out with this unmarried

(26:56):
couple, plus grandma, and justin their house unsupervised. Suspicious.
Very fucking suspicious.
Absolutely not. So on December26th of 1964, Hindley took her grandmother
to one of her relatives housesand then told her that she couldn't
come home, but that she wasgoing to bring her home the following
day.
Interesting.
Strange. So like, grandma, getout of the house. You can come home

(27:18):
tomorrow.
From discussing how the two ofthem acted while they were reading
fucking Nazi shit in theirbreak rooms at work, I can only imagine
how fucking awful it was tolive with them.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
So I'm sure grandma was like,okay, bye.
Yeah. Now, on the same daythat they dropped off grandma somewhere,
Leslie Ann Downey went missingfrom a fun fair.

(27:40):
Let's talk a little bit aboutLeslie. Leslie's family and friends
described her as well likedand she just had a shy nature. She
would really come out of hershow when she would dance or sing,
and her favorite song wascalled Bobby's Girl. She also loved
to roller skate. She had anolder brother named Terry and then
two younger brothers namedBrett and Tommy.
Big families. Yeah.

(28:01):
Her mom said that she wasperfect and had a strong sense of
right and wrong. So again,this happened on December 26, which
is the day after Christmas,which from my understanding of places
in Europe, like the day afterChristmas is also like a big deal.
Like, we do Christmas Eve here.
Yeah.
But there it's like the dayafter Brady and Henley encountered

(28:21):
Leslie while she was alone atthe fun fair. When they approached
her, they purposely droppedsome of the bags they were carrying
and they acted as though theyjust couldn't possibly carry everything
to the car without her. Shehelped them carry things to the car,
and then once they got there,they said like, oh, we just. We need
your help carrying this stuffinto our house too. And you know,
she's a sweet young kid, soshe's like, okay, I'll come help.

(28:44):
And this is where thingsdeviate. All of the other murders
that we've talked about thusfar occurred at the Moore. This is
where they actually bring herinto their home.
Yeah.
So once Leslie's inside, Bradyand Henley undressed and gagged her,
then made her pose forexplicit photographs. Leslie was
sexually assaulted and killed.It's believed that they strangled

(29:05):
her with string as well.Henley and Brady recorded the audio
from the attack on reel toreel audio tape. Both Hindley and
Brady's voices were heard onthe tape, along with Leslie's pleasure.
Hindley, however, maintainedthat she did not take part in the
attack or the murder. She saidwhen Leslie was being undressed,
that she was upstairs and notwith Brady. When Brady took the photos,

(29:30):
she was like, oh, I waslooking out the window. I didn't
see that he did that. And thenHinley said that when Brady murdered
Leslie, Hinley said, oh, I wasrunning a bath.
Okay. But your voice is onthese things.
Yes. Someplace else each time.
Yeah.
And from what I understand,she's basically. She's kind of scolding
Leslie on it, like she'sspeaking to her unkindly. And Henley's

(29:52):
like, oh, no, I wasn't tryingto be mean with her. I just needed
her to be quiet because we hadneighbors. I'm like, she's a child
who is being attacked. Ofcourse she's loud. You fucking monster.
Yeah.
So after she was murdered,Brady and Hindley then buried Leslie
at Saddleworth Moore in ashallow grave. And to add even fucking

(30:12):
more just disgustingness tothis, when they buried her, they
buried her naked, but theypiled her clothes up at her feet.
Monsters. In every way.
Yes, in every fucking way.
So we're moving on to twomonths later in February of 1965.
So Patricia, the little kid wetalked about, stopped visiting Brady

(30:33):
and Hindley.
Probably for the best.
Yeah, for sure. Now, Smithkept coming over, though. Brady would
give him books to read, andthey would also regularly discuss
robbery and murder, you know,their favorite fucking topics.
Fucking weird.
In July of 1965, Smith andMaureen moved closer to Henley and
Brady, and the couple saw oneanother a bit more. Then on October

(30:55):
6th of 1965, Edward Evans wasmurdered by Brady and Henley. Unfortunately,
we couldn't find much outabout Edward. His family was very
private. But what we do knowis that he was 17 years old when
he was murdered. And at thetime, he was an apprentice engineer,
so. Smart boy.
Yeah.
So the circumstancessurrounding Edward's murder are a

(31:17):
little different. Henley droveBrady to Manchester Central Railroad
station in the evening ofOctober 6th so that Brady could pick
his next victim. After just afew minutes of being inside the station,
he came back out with Edward.He told Edward that Henley was his
sister.
Creepy.
Brady later told lawenforcement that he had picked Edward
up so that they could havesex. The three of them drove back

(31:40):
to their home on WordlebrookAvenue and drank wine. Brady told
Henley to go get her brotherin law, Smith. So remember, they
were having this like weirdrelationship, chatting about weird
stuff, right?
Mm.
When they got back to thehouse, Henley told Smith to wait
outside for her signal, whichwould be a flashing light. After
he saw the flashing light,Smith knocked on the door. Brady

(32:02):
answered the door and askedSmyth if he came for, quote, the
miniature wine bottles.
Weird. Bizarre.
Brady told Smith that he wasgoing to get the wine and then he
left the room. A few minuteswent by before Smith then heard a
loud, high pitched scream. Oneafter another. Henley then screamed
for Smith to help Brady. Smithran into the living room and then

(32:23):
froze. Now, he described thevictim as a young man, but we know
it's Edward, so we're going tocall him Edward. He saw Edward facing
up. He was laying with hishead and shoulders on the couch,
but the rest of his body wason the floor. Brady was standing
over Edward with his legs oneither side of him. Edward was screaming
as Brady slammed a hatchetonto the left side of Edward's head.

(32:46):
Then Smith watched as Bradystrangled Edward with an electrical
cord. Could you imaginefucking walking into that and then
just watching and standing there?
Given that they had had somany conversations about robbery
and murder and all thesefucked up things, I wouldn't be altogether
surprised if I came in and sawthis person murdering someone. Although

(33:07):
there would be the initialshock of this is actually happening.
This isn't a hypothetical discussion.
Right.
Brady was so into this that Ifind I have a hard time empathizing
with anybody who was in shockat what he could do because it's
like he literally told you howhe wanted to do this kind of shit.
That's true, that's true. It'sjust not knowing exactly their conversations.
I know we know a little bit ofwhat might have happened, but like,

(33:29):
just thinking about, did heknow at this particular moment, that's
why they invited him over. Washe expecting it? Was it unexpected?
Like, ugh. So Brady claimedthat he could not lift Edward's body
by himself because he had hurthis ankle during the altercation.
Fuck him. Smith and Bradywrapped Edward in a plastic sheet
and then they moved his bodyto one of the spare bedrooms so that

(33:49):
they could dispose of the bodylater. Brady then instructed Smith
to pack any incriminatingitems into a suitcase. Smith said
that he was going to come backthe next morning so that they could,
you know, together move thebody to the car and then they could
go to Saddleworth more.
And so, again, we're talkingabout Smith now being an accomplice

(34:09):
to this murder and theconcealment of the murder and disposal
of the body, which, again,based on the conversations they had
previously had, you wouldthink that Smith would be up for.
Because he'd been talkingabout this so much.
Right. That was like, theirfavorite topic.
Yes. So again, it's October7th, the night of the murder. Smith
got home around three in themorning. Apparently, Maureen was

(34:31):
waiting up for him and he saidto her, can you make me a cup of
tea? And she does. He drinksthe tea and then threw up. And then
he also just. Word vomitseverything that just happened. He
then waited until it was lightout and went to the phone box to
call police, because,remember, nobody had phones in their
house.
Yes.
So he went to the phone boxwhen it was light because he was

(34:52):
terrified that Brady would seehim and hurt him.
Remember, he moved closer tothem. So, like, they lived around
each other.
Yeah. And presumably, like,there's not a ton of phone boxes,
so it's one that he could bearound. But. So when Smith went out
to use the phone box to calllaw enforcement, he brought a bread
knife and a screwdriver. Soafter he calls police, they sent

(35:15):
a car to pick him up. And hegoes to the Hyde police station.
Once he's there, he explainedwhat happened the night before. Law
enforcement then went toHenley and Brady's home, where Hindley
was the one who answered thedoor. And they ask if they can come
in. They're like, sure. Whenthey came in, Brady was writing a
note to his employer about hisankle. And the police superintendent,

(35:36):
Bob Talbot, told Brady andHindley that he was investigating
a violent encounter thatsomeone said had taken place at their
residence. They both deniedthat anything happened and let the
police search the home. Soconfident, very bizarrely confident.
Eventually, law enforcementcame across a bedroom that was locked.
Law enforcement asked Henleyand Brady to unlock the door, but

(35:58):
they responded, oh, the keyfor that door is at Henley's work.
And so law enforcement says,okay, we'll drive you there so you
can go get that key.
Fair.
Because of course they'regoing to continue to search or they're
going to break the fuckingdoor down. Yeah, but so at this point,
Brady just tells Henley togive them the key. So once they're
inside, they found Edward'sbody and just Brady was arrested.

(36:20):
Brady tried to say that thingshad gotten out of hand and that what
had happened was an accident.
Why do they always think thatthat's going to work?
Yes. So again, just Brady wasarrested and yet Hindley was intent
on going to the station withthem as well. And that she also be
able to bring puppet again,the dog. Hindley said Edward's death

(36:41):
was an accident, but shewouldn't talk any further, so she
agreed to come back the nextday. So they said she could leave,
so she did. She then asked heremployer if they would fire her so
that she could collectunemployment benefits.
Weird.
Before Hindley was fired, shepicked up an envelope that had been
Brady's and she burned theenvelope and claimed that she did
not read the contents of itbefore doing so. Per Henley, she

(37:04):
thought that it was bankrobbery plans.
But like, she claims to nothave anything to do with anything,
but now she's hiding whatcould potentially be evidence for
something else.
Also, like, why is he keepinglike an envelope of bank robbery
plans at his work? That's aweird thing to do.
The other guy we talked aboutwrote a movie about what he was doing.
So like, oh, fucking, fuck, man.
The thought process isn't there.
Yeah. So then just four dayslater, on October 11th of 1965, Hindley

(37:28):
was arrested. Law enforcementcharged her as an accessory to murder
for Edward's murder.
So now we're going to move onto the investigation. While searching
Hindley and Brady's home, lawenforcement found a book with John
Kilbride's name inside. Thetwo had not previously been suspected
of the murder, but this madethem consider them as a suspect for
the murder, as well as otherunresolved disappearances. Brady

(37:52):
was adamant that he and Smithmurdered Edward, but Hidley only
did what she had been toldwhen it came to him. Smith told law
enforcement that Brady, quote,had a thing about railway stations.
And he also told them thatBrady would ask him to put incriminating
items into suitcases. So thatled officials to go check the Manchester

(38:13):
railway station's left luggageoffice. So, you know, like when people
forget their luggage or itdoesn't make it in time or whatever.
Here we have Smith sayingclearly, oh, he asked me to put evidence
into things.
Yeah.
So he knew there was evidence.
Yeah.
So suspicious. Very suspicious.
Right. So inside the suitcasesthat they connected to Hindley and

(38:35):
Brady. There was a horrifyingamount of evidence and items. So
one of those Items was a 16minute tape of a girl who said she
was Leslie and she wasscreaming, crying and begging to
see her mother. They alsofound pornographic photos of Leslie
that Brady had taken alongwith other photos and negatives.
The other photos wereseemingly innocent. They included

(38:58):
things like Henley atSaddleworth, Mo. Posing for photos,
sometimes with her dog. Andthere were also costumes and notes
that they found. This part,this next part just hurts a lot to
say. But police then hadLeslie's mother come look at two
of the photos and they werethe only ones that they deemed appropriate
for her to even see toidentify her daughter. She also listened

(39:19):
to at least a portion of theaudio tape to confirm it was her
voice. And I just, I can'timagine that. I know there's other
cases that included stuff likethis where parents have to listen
to it and it just like hearingit happen, you know, is different
than knowing it happened. It'slike hearing it happen like you're
there. Law enforcement spokewith Patricia, the little girl who

(39:39):
hung around Henley and Brady.You know, the one that we mentioned
earlier, the weirdrelationship. She told them that
the pair had taken her toSaddleworth several times. She showed
them where they frequented andpolice began searching those areas
for remains. Smart little girlto like be like, this is where we
hung out for sure.
What I would also be curiousabout is whether Brady and or Henley

(40:03):
got off in some sick fuckingway by bringing a child to the gravesites.
Probably, probably.
Also this girl probably has somuch fucking like trauma from these
innocuous seeming instanceswhere she's just a hair from death.
Yes. Yeah. It's still like, Iknow that she lived close, but it's

(40:23):
still like why? And how didshe get away? You know, like what,
what was different? On October16, they found an arm sticking out
from the pete that wouldultimately be identified as Leslie.
Her mother confirmed that theclothing piled at her feet was indeed
Leslie's. Again, just likeanother layer of fucked up for this

(40:43):
poor mom.
I know.
Smith told police that Bradyhad bragged about having photographic
proof of murders that he hadcommitted. Another weird layer that
he would like tell Smithabout. Right.
And you're surprised he'smurdering people. You're now, now
going to act shocked andclutch your pearls at this. Like
this guy's telling you fuckedup things that he's doing fucked
up things. So then you stumbleupon him doing fucked up things and

(41:07):
you're shocked, right? It'shard for me to believe his innocence
in this.
Well, that's why I'm like, didhe know that was going to happen?
Because he, you know, like, wedon't know exactly what they talked
about, but, like, we havelittle snippets and yeah, it seems
like he, he knew a great deal.So law enforcement, obviously, we're
like, okay, we need to take aserious look at the areas that, you

(41:30):
know, those seemingly innocentphotos were taken so we could see
if there's anything else. Theyeven asked locals to help identify
particular parts ofSaddleworth. On October 21, they
found the severely decomposedremains of John Kilbride. His mother
had to identify him by hisclothing. Ugh. I always feel for
all these parents. Yeah. Alsoon October 21st, Henley and Brady

(41:54):
were charged with Leslie's murder.
So that following November,law enforcement kept searching the
Moore for more victims. But asit got colder, the searches died
out. Around the same time, themedia dubbed the murders as the Moore
murders. At this point, wejust have Leslie and Edward who were
connected with them. And therebegins to be public speculation that

(42:16):
perhaps Pauline Reed and KeithBennett were also victims of Brady
and Hindley. Law enforcementplayed the recording of Leslie and
Brady said that they didn'tconvince her to come to their home.
He said that two men hadbrought her there and that they had
taken her alive from theirhome so that whatever happened to

(42:37):
her wasn't him. In earlyDecember, Brady was also charged
with John's murder. AndHindley was then charged with harboring
knowledge of Brady's murder ofJohn. We talked about, you know,
the seemingly innocent photosthat included Puppet, and he was
in lots of photos all over theplace. And he ranged in age from

(42:58):
a puppy to a full grown dog.So law enforcement was like, we can
use his age to determine whenthese things were happening. So they
had a veterinary surgeonexamine Puppet to figure out his
age. For some reason, theyused anesthesia for this examination
and he did not wake up.
That's sad.
Fucking hate that.

(43:18):
Yeah.
Puppet was a bystander.
Yeah.
Henley accused police ofmurdering her dog. Up until this
point, she'd really not shownmuch emotion. So law enforcement
was surprised she was so upsetby her dog dying.
It's really sad.
Now you can look at, like,teeth and things like that determine
a dog's age. So I just wonder,like, what was this veterinary surgeon

(43:39):
doing to Puppet to figure outtheir age?
The only thing I can think ofis, you know, as a dog trainer thinking
about why would they have toput them under to Examine age would
be. Maybe he wasn't allowingthem to look at the teeth because
there are dogs that justaren't socialized well with especially
other people. If he's not near.
Yes.
His owner and she's not in thepicture. Maybe he was biting or stressed,

(44:04):
which understandably the poor dog.
Yes.
But I'm wondering if maybethey couldn't check his teeth because
I have trained dogs where youwere not allowed to touch their face
without getting bit.
Given how not far along humanmedicine was in the 60s, I would
not be surprised if veterinarymedicine was not far enough along
to know like dog age fromteeth. I don't know. I'm not a dog

(44:25):
teeth scientist. But still, itsucks that puppet died. But one of
the important things here isthat this is the first time anybody
sees Henley get upset. And upuntil now they're like, here's children
that were horrifically murdered.
And she's like, okay.
And she's kind of just neutralabout it.
Yeah.
So let's talk about the trial.It lasted 14 days, and during the
trial, both Henley and Bradywere behind bulletproof glass because

(44:49):
they were afraid people weregoing to try to kill him. There was
lots of outrage from thepublic, which fair. Fucked up.
Yeah.
Hindley and Brady both plednot guilty. Smith was the prosecution's
primary witness. And the mediacoverage here was pretty intense.
And we're going to talk aboutsome of the interesting things that
happened during this that Ihad never heard of happening in a

(45:09):
trial. And it just brought upsome unique concerns. But before
we get into that, most of thecity's hotel rooms were booked up
from people in the media. Andthere was, you know, the courtroom
itself, plus like outside wasfilled up with people who wanted
to watch the trial, whether itwas media or just people who lived
around there. The News of theWorld newspaper reached out to Smith

(45:32):
for the rights to his storyand he eventually agreed to weekly
payments of £15 until thetrial. And then in their agreement,
he would get another thousandpounds only if Brady and Henley were
convicted. And this meant thatthe prosecution's star witness had
a financial motive to testifyagainst the defendants. Yeah, Smith

(45:55):
gave statements before andafter trial. Presumably his statements
before trial were also beforethe agreement. So his statements
that he made at trial werecompared to those pre agreement,
pre trial statements and theywere not substantially different,
which is good.
Yeah.
But people really dislikeSmith because of this. And it was

(46:17):
so bad that Maureen wasattacked in the elevator of their
apartment building during thetrial. She was eight months pregnant
at this time. They alsoReceived hate mail and they were
worried to let their childrenout of their sight.
Yeah, that sounds reallyscary. Especially for the kids. Like,
the kids are innocent.
Yes.
Hindley testified for sixhours and Brady testified for eight.
Fuck.
Henley said that she did notknow that the photos of her posing

(46:40):
at Saddleworth, Mo. Were ongrave sites. But, like, come on,
you know?
Yeah.
After the 16 minute tape ofLeslie was played, Hindley said that
the reason why she was socruel to Leslie was because she didn't
want people to hear herscreams again. What the fuck?
Yeah.
And that she had nothing to dowith the pornographic photos, attack

(47:01):
or murder. But you're present.
Yeah, I don't fucking believe that.
And yelling at the victim, youknow, Come on.
Yeah.
So throughout this testimony,Brady was incredibly calm and seemed
arrogant. He claimed thatwhile he had hit Edward with an axe,
he did not strangle him, so hedid not murder him. Like this guy,
all these people we've beentalking about lately, I don't understand

(47:23):
how they think, like, oh,well, I mean, I did this to them,
but like, I didn't mean it,or, yeah.
Yeah, it's just a. A slight murder.
Yeah.
My guy.
I don't understand.
Fuck this guy.
Yeah, fuck this guy. The juryonly deliberated for about two hours
before finding them guilty onall charges. The death penalty had
been abolished less than ayear before. Brady was sentenced

(47:46):
to three concurrent lifesentences and Hindley was sentenced
to two concurrent lifesentences, plus another seven years
for her knowing Brady hadmurdered John. So as an interesting
note, the England justicesystem is a bit different from what
we see in the us. So thejustice that handled the sentencing
did life in prison. Andapparently at this time, the Home

(48:08):
Secretary could parole someoneif the parole board recommended it.
This was changed later. Good.
This seems like a weirdfucking thing that, like, you shouldn't
maybe have that power, but aweird Note.
Yeah. In 1985, Brady allegedlytold a journalist for the Sunday
People that he had killedPauline and Keith. This confirmed
law enforcement suspicions, sothey reopened the investigation.

(48:31):
When a detective went to speakwith Brady about it, he was, quote,
scornful of any suggestionthat he had confessed to more murders.
The police looked at thephotographs we discussed earlier
again, and Keith's mom wroteto Henley begging her to tell her
what happened to her son. In1986, Henley would not confess to
killing Keith when lawenforcement visited her, but she

(48:53):
did agree to look at thephotographs to see the areas and
if they looked familiar. Sheshowed interest in one area, but
she just couldn't quiteremember without seeing the M.O.
hinley was taken to the M.O.under law enforcement supervision
to see if she could rememberanything else. Henley visited the
MO Twice, and it was a hugeendeavor. They closed all the streets

(49:14):
to the MO and there werehundreds of armed officers, plus
helicopters surveying, which,like, I appreciate that they were
making sure that it was allgoing to go well.
Yeah.
Ultimately, she did not showthem any burial sites. The following
February, Henley formallyconfessed to two additional murders,
and that was of Pauline andKeith. And it was in a statement

(49:35):
that was over 17 hours long,the detective who was in charge of
the reopened case, DetectiveChief Superintendent Peter Topping,
explained that it felt asthough he, quote, witnessed a great
performance rather than agenuine confession. And, like, 17
hours is a long fucking time.
Yeah.

(49:55):
Law enforcement told Bradyabout Hindley's confession, but he
did not believe them untilthey shared specific details about
the murders that only Hindleywould know. Brady said that he wanted
to confess, but only if theywould let him kill himself right
after. Obviously, he could notdo that.
So again, we're in 1987, inFebruary. That's when Hindley confesses.

(50:16):
But it's not until April thatthat confession goes public. In that
confession, she also specifiesthat Smith had no part in the murders
other than what she had saidhappened with Edward. Originally,
she had said that he had moreto do with things, which is why she
basically pulled that back. Insubsequent interviews with law enforcement,
she described the area wherePauline was buried, and they were

(50:38):
eventually able to find herremains. Brady eventually did confess
to Pauline and Keith'smurders, even though they would not
let him kill himself. Bradyalso was allowed to visit the moor
to try to help locate thebodies, but he also did not say or
direct them anywhere that wasuseful. He said that he located the
burial site, but Keith's bodywasn't there, and Keith's body was

(50:59):
never recovered.
Oh, that's horrible.
Despite those confessions,Henley and Brady were not formally
charged with the murdersbecause they'd already been sentenced
to life in prison.
Like, I get it, but also likethose poor families not feeling like
they got justice.
Yeah. So Fast forward to 2003,and the search for Keith's remains
begins again. The UnitedStates even assisted by allowing

(51:23):
them to use some spysatellites to see if they could find
his remains. At one point, askull was located, but it was not
confirmed whether it was KeithSon. So next we're gonna talk about
Henley and Brady's time inprison through the end of their lives.
Henley attempted to appeal heroriginal conviction and life sentence.
Throughout her incarcerationbut luckily was unsuccessful. At

(51:44):
one point, she began arelationship with one of the prison
guards, Patricia Cairns.
This gets wild.
Yes. Now, Cairns waseventually arrested when she tried
to help Hindley escape. Like,this is like a movie, right? Yeah.
Ugh.
When Hindley sought parole,she wrote a 30,000 word plea to Home
Secretary Marilyn Reese. Oneportion included, quote, within months,

(52:08):
he had convinced me that therewas no God at all. He could have
told me that the earth wasflat, the moon was made of green
cheese and the sun rose in thewest. I would have believed him.
Such was his power ofpersuasion. So, like, now she's like,
he told me everything and Ijust believed him. Sounds very Lori
Valo.
It does. It's just, hey, I'veraped a bunch of kids. Should knock

(52:33):
you out of it.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's hard for me to giveanyone any empathy.
No.
When we're talking aboutsexually assaulting children, I do
not care how brainwashed youare, get fucked. Yes.
In the 90s, she said that shedidn't want to take part in the killings
and she only did so becauseBrady was blackmailing her with the
explicit pictures he had ofher. Also, she claimed that he was

(52:57):
drugging her and because hethreatened to kill Maureen. So she
had a lot of differentreasons, she claimed.
We had a lot of excuses here.
Yeah.
You will survive if nakedpictures of you are shown to the
world. You don't get to hurtother people because you're scared.
Yeah. Her attorney, AKA hersolicitor, shared that Hindley had
told him, quote, I ought tohave been hanged. I deserved it.

(53:19):
My crime was worse thanBrady's because I enticed the children
and they never would haveentered the car without my role.
Also, I have always regardedmyself as worse than Brady.
So he fucking murdered them.She's complicit in that and because
of that complicity, she isequally as fucking guilty.
Yeah.
But I do think it isinteresting that when women commit

(53:41):
crimes with men and the menare the primary aggressor, people
will see the woman as beingworse. Even though, theoretically,
the woman sometimes is not theperson doing the actual killing or
sexual assault. They're like,oh, because she was involved, it's
worse than what they did. It'sreally fucking bad. But if she just
got them into the van, nothingwould have happened. Her getting

(54:04):
them into the van didn't killthem. Brady killed them. Still get
fucked. My point is that Ithink that people are like, women
are mothers and therefore,like, should be maternal to all children.
She's fucking garbage. He'sfucking Garbage. But he's the garbage
that fucking did the thing.
I still am not on the side ofher. Not like taking part of things,
you know?
Oh. Oh, no. I absolutely thinkshe was helping and doing the things.

(54:26):
Yeah.
Because there's no world whereyou're either in my head bad enough
where you're doing theterrible things with a person because
you're into it in some sad,weird, fucked up way.
Yeah.
Or you're disgusted by thatand there's only two options. And
you're not going to be coolwith somebody else doing that shit
if you're not into it.Correct. Waiting in the van while

(54:49):
he does this garbage.
No.
Get fucked.
Yes.
I'm mad about it.
Yes. No. Agreed. Now, Henleydied in November 2002 of pneumonia.
Good. So it wasn't a pleasantdeath. Cairns, who had served her
sentence by this time, spreadher ashes in a park that was less
than 10 miles from saddleWorth. More. It's kind of weird,
right?

(55:10):
Yeah. If I was the partnerthat was after the horrible fucking
thing and this person got meto fall in love with them under the
pretense that, like, I'mactually a good gal. But then that
person was like, but can yougo ahead and spread my ashes near
where all of these kids werekilled? No, I'm going to flush that.
I wonder if they even havethat conversation. Like dying of
pneumonia isn't really expected.

(55:30):
Just fucking weird.
Yeah. Now let's move on toBrady. Brady never really seemed
to feel bad about what he andHindley did. He did regret the consequences
of their actions, but not themurders themselves. At one point,
he confessed to additionalmurders. This was pretty soon after
he visited the moors. Thedetails were sparse. He claims that

(55:53):
he killed a man in Manchester,someone else in Saddleworth Moor,
a woman whose body he left inthe canal, and two people in Scotland.
This was not enough to startan investigation, and Hindley claimed
no knowledge of the additionalcrimes. But, like, why else would
he bring it up if he didn'tactually commit these? So it's kind
of scary that there's likely more.

(56:14):
Absolutely.
Brady spent time in mentalhealth facilities and prisons throughout
the rest of his life. He wasdiagnosed as a psychopath. Surprise,
surprise.
What a shock.
During his incarceration,Brady befriended a serial killer
named Graham Young, who wasdubbed the Teacup Poisoner.
Interesting.

(56:34):
So they could talk aboutmurder and robberies, I guess. When
Brady wrote a book called theGates of Janus, he discussed his
friendship with Young.Bizarre. Mm. Brady died of restrictive
pulmonary disease on May 15thof 2017. So he lived a while.
I love to hear that he's dead,though. Yeah, love to hear it. So

(56:55):
we're going to talk about thefamilies of all the victims and the
aftermath. Maureen, Henley'ssister, she died in 1980 of a brain
hemorrhage. John Kilbride'sparents came to the funeral because
they thought that Hindleywould be there. And their names again
were Patrick and Sheila.Patrick attacked someone because
he mistakenly thought that shewas Hindley. And Sheila said that,

(57:18):
quote, that if she, Hindley,ever comes out of jail, I'll kill
her. And John's brother Dannysaid the same thing because, remember,
she was trying to get parole.
Yeah.
Pauline Reed's mother, Joan,was admitted to a mental hospital.
She was under heavy sedationat Pauline's funeral in August of
1987.
It's horrible.
Leslie's mother, Ann west,spent a good amount of time and energy

(57:42):
making sure that Henley didnot get parole and that she stayed
in prison. In 1999, sheultimately died of liver cancer.
And her doctors confirmed thatthe stress and ordeal contributed
to how severe her illness wasbecause not only did she lose her
daughter, but she was fightingto keep Henley in jail and to not
give her role. Yeah,originally Ann said she would never
go to Saddleworth Moore afterthey found her daughter there. But

(58:04):
she went right before she diedand she said, what must it have been
like for our baby in the dark,all alone? In an interview with Ann
before she died, she said thatshe would haunt Henley for the rest
of her life, which, fuckfucking right you will.
Yeah.
In that interview, she alsosaid, I speak to Leslie. I have done
so from the night she wentmissing and I cannot wait to join

(58:26):
her. But I didn't want it tohappen this way. I wanted Henley
to go before me, actually.Leslie's stepfather, Allen west,
died in 2016. In one of hislast interviews, when he was 71,
Allen said that he still hadnightmares about Leslie's death.
And in this part, like equal,part sad and just fucking enraging.
After Allan died, Leslie'sbrother Terry was interviewed. He

(58:48):
was angry that Brady outlivedmany of his victim's family members.
And then he also talked abouthow in 2001, a man named Kaz Telfer
set fire to the home of Tommywest, who was one of Leslie's brothers,
and that in that home it wasTommy and his 8 year old daughter
Kimberly, and that they bothdied in that fire. Teffler set the

(59:09):
fire because he was obsessedwith Henley and Brady.
I fucking hate people so much.
Just what the fucking. Like,these families have just lost so
much. And for people to con,for that to continue.
Yeah.
And that for someone to justamplify that pain, it's just. I don't
understand.
Yeah. So again, Tommy wasLeslie's brother. Right. And then

(59:30):
his daughter Kimberly.
Yeah.
But, like, they had nothing todo with anything that happened, you
know, like, nothing. They.They were just family members of
someone who got murdered. Theydid nothing wrong. And then this
person's like, hey, I love themurderer who killed Tommy's sister.
Let me go kill them too. Idon't even. Like, my brain doesn't
connect, you know?

(59:50):
It doesn't. I can't connectthose dots. Yes. It doesn't make
sense. Obviously, none of thismakes sense because your brain isn't
working properly if you can dothis. But typically, when you hear
somebody who is obsessed witha serial killer, it's like their
actual victims, not like theirvictim's family member. That's, like,
removed.
Yeah.
And also, right, we're talking2001. This is decades after the murders.

(01:00:14):
Right.
And so the last family thatwe're gonna talk about is Keith Bennett's.
His mother, Winnie Johnson,frequently visits Saddleworth Moore
up until her death in 2012,because she believed that's where
her son was buried. Sheestimated that she had visited it
thousands of times. At onepoint, Brady wrote to Winnie, and
he was trying to get sympathyfrom her, which fucking rich. But

(01:00:36):
he was also trying tomanipulate her into convincing law
enforcement to let him go tothe Moor once more. And Whitney responded
to him and said, I want tofind Keith before you die, and when
you have died, I want to putthe first nail in your coffin. When
talking about the funeral shewanted to have for him once they
found his body, she said thatshe wanted to make an announcement.

(01:00:56):
And before we get into whatthat was, she didn't want to have
a funeral until they foundhim, but they never found him, so
they didn't get to have thatfuneral, which, like, that just.
It just.
It's just so fucking bad. But,like, she's like, he's here, you
know, so she keeps going tothe Moor because that's basically
where he's. He's buried, youknow? And it's just. It's so fucked

(01:01:17):
up.
Well, it's a big space, too.
Yeah. It's massive.
And everything kind of looks alike.
Yeah.
Ugh.
But when she wanted theannouncement she said that she would
have made was, I want to thankeverybody for looking after me and
helping me rescue Keith. He ismy son. But He's a stepson of Manchester
as well. Everybody thinks ofhim and everyone wants him to be

(01:01:39):
found and not just here, allover the world. When he's found,
I know all I've done. Oh,gosh. When he's found, I'll know
I've done my duty as a mother.
I'll be at ease.
Then I'll know I've got himback. Which, like, fuck, man. Like,
Winnie got me more than Ithink any parent that we've ever
talked about. Because it'sjust heartbreaking.

(01:01:59):
It's heartbreaking that therest of her life she's looking for
her son.
Yeah.
And just kind of wanting alittle bit of closure. I know she
knew what happened, but, like,to be able to close that and she
just never got that opportunity.
Just this crumb of relief.
Exactly.
Nothing will bring her babyback, but at least she could mourn
him in a way where she feltlike she could. I don't have kids,

(01:02:21):
so I know. I'll never imaginewhat it would feel like to lose them.
But to lose them in such aterrible way and then to not even
get closure, I just. It'sfucking awful.
Yeah. And I did see when wewere looking at pictures of Saddleworth
more, that there is, like alittle area, it kind of reminds me
of Chad Daybell's property onthe fence line that is dedicated
to Keith, where people haveleft flowers and, like, toys and

(01:02:43):
stuff. It's heartbreaking.
Absolutely.
But that was hard. Yeah.
This is a. This was a rough case.
It took Lindsay and I, Ithink, two or three hours to get
started today because, like,yeah, it's an interesting case and
we're thankful that Chloe sentit in. But also talking about this
is rough, right? Yeah. I thinkit was like three hours that we procrastinated.

(01:03:03):
But it's worth talking aboutbecause we should never, ever forget
Pauline Reed, John Kilbride,Keith Bennett, Leslie Ann Downey
and Edward Evans. And also inour list of family members, we didn't
talk about Edward because wedon't know much about Edward.
Right. They kept to themselves.
Yeah, they kept to themselves.And so their grieving was also private.

(01:03:26):
And everyone does this differently.
Everyone does it differently.So long as you are not actively hurting
other people, there's no wrongway to grieve, you know?
Yeah.
But.
Oh, it was a tough one. Yeah.Ends in tears.
A tough one for sure. Don'tforget them. One of the places that
we got some of our informationabout the victims today was this
more murder subreddit, whichwe don't normally go to Reddit to

(01:03:50):
find information like that.We'll look for people's like, experiences
and like kind of talk aboutthose sometimes with things. But
that's an excellent subredditif you're interested in this case
or the people who wereaffected by it. Every year on their
birthdays they post and theythey put a lot about their lives
and how their family wereaffected. So just an interesting
little we don't always talkabout all of our sources in the episode.

(01:04:12):
They're always in the shownotes though.
Yeah, for sure.
Woof. So that was the Moremurders Hug somebody you love today.
Yes.
And with that, have a great weekend.
Thanks for creeping with us.
Thanks for listening and asalways, a special thank you to our
patrons who support us via Patreon.
Please see the link in ourshow notes to learn more about how

(01:04:32):
you yes, you can begin tohaunt the dump, guard vortexes or
even become a scorching Sasquatch.
Ooh. Also in our show notesyou can find the link to our website,
more information on oursources, our social media handles
and our merch store.
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