September 13, 2023 • 46 mins
Get ready for an inspiring discussion with the renowned conservationist, Dr. Laurie Marker, as she delves into the complex challenges confronting cheetahs today. Cheetah Conservation is not solely about saving these majestic big cats; it's also an exploration of the human-driven factors shaping their existence. Dr. Marker will enlighten us on the profound impact of our actions, from climate change to poaching, on this magnificent species.
Imagine living outside protected areas, dodging threats at every corner. This is the harsh reality for cheetahs. Dr. Marker's extensive knowledge and passion for these creatures shine through as she shares insights on their perilous existence. It's not all gloom though. We also explore the commendable work done by the Cheetah Conservation Fund to ensure the continued existence of the cheetah. Together, we investigate the illegal wildlife trafficking and discuss the unforeseen complications of keeping wild animals as pets.
Lastly, we shift our focus to the future. Cheetah conservation isn't a sole effort. It's a collective responsibility, and we learn about the unique initiatives making a difference. We talk about livestock protection programs in Africa, the essential role of livestock guarding dogs, and how you can get involved with cheetah conservation. So grab your headphones, join us on this enlightening journey, and discover what it truly takes to preserve these awe-inspiring creatures for future generations.
Cheetah Conservation Fund
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Interview with: Dr. Laurie Marker
Things that make you say "Wow"!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
That sound was the voice of a cheetah.
They call it chirping and, yeah, it does kind of sound like a
bird.
In the world of animalconservation, there are the
names that everyone knows andthe iconic species associated
with them.
You have Dr Jane Goodall, andwe think of chimpanzees,
gorillas, dianfossi.
(00:41):
Well, today's guest is one ofthose conservationists, a
trailblazer, a pioneer, a womanthat has spent over three
decades fighting for thesurvival of the cheetahs in
Africa.
Today we are talking with aconservation icon, dr Laurie
Marker, founder and executivedirector of the Cheetah
Conservation Fund, based inNamibia.
(01:03):
Known as the fastest landanimal, the cheetah can go from
0 to 70 miles per hour in fourseconds, cover 25 feet per
stride, has an oversized heartand a small aerodynamic head,
nostrils that flare to let inmore oxygen, a flexible backbone
, distinctive black tear linesthat help reflect the sun and
(01:26):
semi-retractable claws that actlike cleats, like on a running
shoe.
They are also the oldest of thebig cats They've been around
for perhaps five million years.
Hi everyone, it's Vanessa fromTwo Chicks and a Ho, the podcast
that digs deeper intoconversations with amazing
people doing great things in ourworld.
(01:47):
Dr Laurie Marker is a researchscientist, a conservation
biologist, recognized as one ofthe world's leading experts on
the cheetah.
Her holistic approach,balancing the needs of people,
livestock and wildlife, iscredited with stabilizing and
increasing the world cheetahpopulation in Namibia, which is
(02:08):
considered the cheetah capitalof the world.
Dr Marker's work in Namibia andher role as the public face of
cheetah conservation worldwidehas brought her international
recognition.
She has been the recipient ofnumerous awards, including the
Tyler Prize for EnvironmentalAchievement and the Zoological
Society of San Diego's LifetimeAchievement Award, and she was
(02:32):
also named one of TimeMagazine's heroes for the planet
.
I'm so excited to introduce toall of our listeners Dr Laurie
(02:58):
Marker from the CheetahConservation Fund.
Welcome, dr Marker.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Thank you.
Great to talk with you andappreciate being able to share
more about the cheetah with yourlisteners.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
So thank you.
Yes, thank you, and I know thatyou're calling in from Namibia
and we were just talking abouthow cold it is there, which I
think is kind of an unknown factto a lot of people that it does
get very cold there.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, it is below freezing basically sometimes in
the winter.
We haven't had so for a fewweeks at a time.
It's actually snowing in SouthAfrica right now, so that gives
you an idea.
We this is very, very, veryunusual snow obviously in South
Africa, but we get all thefreezing cold up here and from
(03:48):
that I think it is interesting.
We are in a high desert, soNamibia is a very big country
it's about two and a half timesthe size of California, with a
lot of wildlife.
We are a country that isabundant with wildlife and love
our wildlife, and this is calledthe cheetah capital of the
world, but with that we onlyhave about 1500 cheetahs in this
(04:11):
country out of a worldpopulation of only about 7,000.
Most, all of them, are found inAfrica.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
And actually so we're just going to get right into it
.
I had heard so that Namibia wasthe cheetah capital of the
world, but when you say there'sonly 1500 there, you think I'm
starting to think.
To tell you the truth and stillI really started doing more
research on having thisconversation with you I had no
(04:42):
idea there was only 7,000cheetahs left in the world.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
It's very scary.
Just a number is one thing, butif you kind of look at how
they're laid out there, sincethe turn of the last century
there were about 100,000cheetahs found throughout,
probably about 45 countries.
We've lost over 20 countries inthe last 100 years to the
(05:09):
cheetahs extinction.
I started working with cheetahsin the early 1970s and from
there to today, around that timethere were about 35,000
cheetahs.
Today there are less than 7,000.
And it's not that we haven'tbeen working our tails off.
We've been able to stabilizeNamibia, but what's happened in
(05:31):
many of the countries?
We've got 20 of the remainingcountries where cheetahs are
found.
Well, they're found in.
Let me put it this way, thereare 31 populations in 23
countries and of those 31populations, 20 of them are
under 100 individuals.
So they're fragmented and it'svery, very scary.
(05:56):
In the last of the ancientcheetahs in Iran, there are only
about a dozen, which is verybad.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So that's not a viable population, is it?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
No, it's not, and I think we're watching that
throughout many of theseremaining cheetah landscapes and
the 20 countries where I saythey're under 100, they need
augmenting.
There are huge problems for thecheetah, and one why are they
endangered?
To begin with, yes, let's dothose facts.
(06:29):
As you and I know, what's goingon in the world and most all of
our species in the world todayare actually very threatened by
loss of habitat.
And from that, with the cheetah, it doesn't live in protected
areas.
Most of them are found outsideof protected areas, because the
protected areas have largerpredators lions and hyenas and
(06:53):
leopards that can steal theirfood, kill their young.
So the cheetah gets pushed outand is on lands where they're
living, with primarily livestockfarmers throughout their range.
So that's the biggest problem,isn't it Human wildlife conflict
?
We as people perceive a threatto a predator and if we don't
(07:15):
manage our livestock properly,then we have losses of our
livestock to predators.
But we have spent our timetrying to figure out why and how
people are living on the landwith those animals and how to
actually get them to understandbetter that they play a very key
role in the livestock lossesthat they have.
(07:36):
And we do that through trainingprograms that we call Future
Farmers of Africa and at thesame time, study how the cheetah
is living through our ecologyprograms with collars on the
cats, and we've got veryextensive databases and movement
patterns and that helps us towork with the farmers and the
people so that our mission isreally trying to live in harmony
(08:00):
with nature and you can evenlive in harmony with a predator
like the cheetah.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
So let me explain a little bit.
Please have you explain alittle bit further.
So we have the human wildlifeconflict, but then that kind of
plays into the whole loss ofprey as well for the cheetah.
So those two work togethercorrect to cause this larger
problem.
So tell me what is the prey ofthe cheetah and what's happening
(08:27):
to it.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Their prey is primarily a small to
medium-sized antelope, which youknow if I'm talking mostly to
Americans would be about a deersize, I would say and they end
down smaller so they can getbirds, they can get hair.
But with that, this sizeantelope also is living on the
(08:52):
land where the livestock is, andso if you've got this is where
the overgrazing can happen.
You end up with no grazing landthen for wildlife, and that's
where conflict comes together.
But so the loss of habitat andthe loss of prey are very tied
in together.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Okay, so and let me say then too, my understanding
is is if we lose, if a farmerthere loses one goat or one cow,
that's devastating.
That's not like going okay, youknow we have hundreds more to
back us up.
That can be very devastating toa farmer.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yes, many of them are living in rural areas, and one
of the problems in Africa isthat these rural areas you've
got pastoralists and there isnot a lot of management.
So it's actually the you know.
The problem with the sharedlands is that everybody wants
(09:54):
more livestock, and as you havemore livestock you have to have
more land.
But there's more people and sothere's less land, and so the
animals do overgraze the land,and once they've overgrazed the
land, then the land is actuallynot that good for even more
animals, so it gets degraded andthen from that it decreases the
(10:14):
amount of grazing for not onlythe livestock but also the
wildlife.
So those are some of the issuesthat we deal with, and, for
instance, we've developed ahabitat restoration program here
in Namibia where we're tryingto help restore habitat.
So grasslands will come back,and if we've got more grasslands
(10:34):
we can have more wildlife, andthen, of course, we could have
more cheetahs too.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Got it, so it's in full circle, right?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
And that's what the cheetah conservation is.
So we have a lot of differentprograms, but we've, in order to
find out what we needed to do,we did a lot of social surveys,
so going door to door, workingtogether with the farmers,
finding out what their problemswere, what their needs were,
engaging the farmers.
And now I set up the CheetahConservation Fund in 1990 here
(11:04):
in Namibia and from that we havebeen able to really work
closely with the farmingcommunities to develop programs
and work with them.
So they've trusted us quite abit.
And those programs are not onlyaround basic research on the
ecology of the cheetah and howit's moving through radio
telemetry, but the basic biologyand genetic makeup of the
(11:27):
population.
And so we do have a veterinaryclinic here at our center as
well as a genetics lab.
And then we have other programs.
We are a model farm where weactually farm livestock so that
the communities can see howwe're doing it in such a way
that we're not losing livestock,so that they can learn from
(11:49):
that being a model farm.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
I love that.
I love that idea.
That's a fantastic way ofworking with the people.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It works because you know, as you come in as a
predator biologist, it's likewhat are you?
You love your cheetahs.
You know we love our livestockRight, we're one as a livestock
farmer, and so I love mylivestock and the predators, and
by studying them I've been ableto teach the farming
communities that they too,through good management, can
(12:19):
actually live in harmony withpredators, not just cheetahs,
even leopards.
We've got hyenas around jackals, so it's a whole array of the
predators which are extremelyimportant for the health of our
ecosystems, which we as peoplealso don't understand that all
(12:40):
of these species are there for apurpose.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Right, right, so you did touch on it briefly.
You mentioned the geneticresearch that you've done and I
think the people that I havetalked to about cheetahs,
everybody kind of has that ideathat cheetahs are clones and I
say that loosely, I'm not ascientist Right, I think that
(13:02):
they're so similar geneticallythat one thing could potentially
wipe them out.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Okay, I was wondering if that was kind of accurate.
We would call them geneticallymonomorphic, being that they're
very much the same and thatactually goes from that.
They escaped the actually ano-transcript a global
extinction, back about 10 to12,000 years ago when the
(13:30):
Pleistocene extinction occurred.
The cheetah before that wasfound throughout basically the
whole world.
It had worldwide distributionin the arid lands, obviously, in
Savannah, in the Americas too.
Right, yeah, okay, yep, okay.
And actually cheetahs originatedfrom the Americas and then
crossed over land bridges, wentover into, you know, down into
(13:55):
Russia, down into Asia, downinto India, into Europe, even so
, they were pretty mucheverywhere then into Africa.
But around 12,000 years agowith the Pleistocene extinction,
the cheetah escaped theextinction but was only found in
remnant population, which webelieve is probably over in
(14:15):
Africa, where the populationthen repopulated.
But it repopulated Africa andAsia and not again in the
Americas.
Okay, so with that, then duringthe course, so they
reestablished, but with that itleft them the same.
So going through a bottleneck,large population going down to
(14:37):
only a few, and then thepopulation coming back, they're
all genetically the same.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Got it, got it, and so with that problem.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yes, okay, because if they see viruses and diseases
and cheetahs are verysusceptible to different or all
of the different, actuallyfeline and canine diseases Okay,
and we see that if one cat getsit, you end up with an outbreak
and it can be very devastating,one of which we have been
(15:09):
studying for a long time, whichis the coronavirus for cheetahs.
It manifests into what's calledfeline infectious peritonitis
and there you can have a veryhigh mortality, up to 60 plus
percent of the animals, becausethey're all the same, all the
animals are the same and whenthey see this virus they act the
same and it's mutated to thepoint where it can actually kill
(15:32):
off the cheetahs in pretty highnumbers.
So that obviously, when you'relooking at a small population
like 7,000 and only a hundredhere or a hundred there, then
how they respond to viruses, andthen all the other
complications that go along withaspects around climate change
(15:53):
and habitat loss and prey loss,that the numbers are very, very
small and that leaves them evenmore vulnerable as a species,
vulnerable to the ecological andenvironmental changes that are
occurring on Earth around them.
So we as an organization aretrying to save the species and
with that, have had to look at avariety of different programs
(16:16):
to try to combat, mitigate andhelp save the cheetah.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So I think you're I like it, I'm calling it your
motto, which is the cheetahconservation fund is changing
the world to save the cheetah,not the opposite direction,
which I love, and I think that'sthe the route of conservation
for cheetahs and, of course,many of or other very vulnerable
and iconic species.
(16:42):
So, yes, huh, interesting.
I've been writing all thesethings down, trying to figure
out.
There's so many things that thecheetahs up against and of
course, you guys are up againstas well, and you touched on it
briefly in terms of loss ofhabitat, but climate change and
how that's affecting it.
And you are actually seeing thereal-time effect of climate
change.
I mean, we're seeing it here inthe United States.
(17:05):
I'm sure I know it's global,but I mean just today you know
there's tremendous flooding onthe East Coast, that kind of a
thing, all of this.
You know climate change, andthere's still people that saying
it doesn't really exist.
But I think that you're seeingit too from the perspective of
the survival of the animals inNamibia.
Is that correct In?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
the wild?
Yes, right, and we were.
We worked throughout thecheetahs range.
So not only are we based downhere in Namibia, we have another
base up in Somali land, whichis in the corner of Africa, and
both of the two countries aresome of the are are some of the
most arid places on earth andwhere the cheetah lives in these
(17:44):
31 populations in 20 countries,are some of the most arid
landscapes.
And you say they're pushed.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
They're pushed more towards the, even the drier
landscapes, because of thehumans, because of humans.
Yes, right, okay got it.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Right, okay, and so yeah, that vulnerability is
something that we also aretaking into account and trying
to help those communities who,many of them, are pastoralists
and very, very poor ruralfarmers.
So, for instance, up in Somaliland, it is also a problem
(18:21):
around human wildlife conflict.
But what they have done withthat is that they've decided to
go out and steal young cubs,poaching them from the wild and
then selling them into theillegal wildlife pet trade,
which maybe makes sense from aSomali land or a rural
perspective, if you're in theHorn of Africa.
But most of the animals don'tmake it into the pet trade.
(18:44):
Obviously, wild animals are notsupposed to be pets.
But cheetahs are an animal thathave been revered by humans for
thousands of years.
They're the smallest of the bigcats.
Of course, they're thefastest-land animal, but because
they're fast, everything thatwas fast on them went away, are
(19:05):
powerful and dangerous.
So they don't have big,powerful claws like lions,
leopards.
They've got dog-like clawswhich dig into the ground and
help them run fast up to 70miles an hour.
They don't have very big teethbecause the teeth, where the
roots go from those canine teeth, go up into their nasal
(19:27):
cavities.
So when you're going 70 milesan hour.
You have to be able to breathe.
So what's happened is they'veevolved and they've got very,
very small canine teeth.
So there's nothing reallyaggressive on them and you can
chase them away from their prey.
It's called flight versus fight.
That's why they have beencaught and then sold into the
pet trade, because they purr andthey are nice, they can eat you
(19:51):
.
It's like a big kitty, right,except they don't last long.
For every one cheetah thatmight make it into the pet trade
, about four or five of them die, and if they do end up in the
pet trade, they only have alifespan of about a year or two.
So what we've had to do is stopthe trade by working in
Smolliland, and we have now inSmolliland over 90 confiscated
(20:17):
cheetahs at our center thatwe've had to develop there.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Let me ask.
So, when you say that theunderstanding, of course, that
whether it's the ivory industry,whatever you want to call it,
the ivory or animal parts andwildlife trafficking a lot of it
, of course is associated withpeople that they're trying to
just support their families andstuff, so what are you doing
(20:44):
with the people in Smolliland interms of the pet trade?
How does that balance out?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Well, that's good what we've done after 30 years
in Namibia.
By developing all the programswe have here, we've been able to
adapt those programs to many ofthe different cheetah range
countries that have differentproblems.
Most of the problems are humanwildlife conflict and livestock
management.
And so our Future Farmer ofAfrica program we've adapted and
(21:14):
developed it to work withfarmers up in Smolliland.
There they've got mostly goat,sheep and camels that they are
raising and they're very, verypoor.
It's the third poorest countryin the world and they've never
had any training.
And so we've now launched thisprogram, which was developed
(21:35):
here in Namibia, with the ruralcommunities telling us what they
needed to know so that theycould be partners with us in
conservation.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
And so that's pretty exciting.
And then, on another level, wework here in Namibia.
We again, we are a country thatloves our wildlife and we have
we still have a lot of wildlifeand the communities are actually
part of this and through whatare called conservancies, and
these are community-basednatural resource management
(22:07):
programs where the communitiesbecome engaged and right now,
most of them, as ruralcommunities, only have their
livestock.
And as you develop aconservancy and you have
wildlife, you can start lookingat a variety of other
livelihoods around that.
Some of the livelihoods inAfrica which are very profitable
(22:28):
are that around ecotourism andhaving areas that are there in a
very healthy wildlife areawhere you've got predators and
the communities can actuallybenefit from the wildlife as
well.
So we're trying to also teachother livelihood aspects, like
(22:49):
if you have your herd of goatsor camels, that potentially you
could have a value added bymaybe making something with it,
and if you have a goat or yourcamel, then you really don't
have anything more because thatwas it, that was it, yeah, so
you can milk your camel or yourgoat, you can make cheeses,
(23:11):
soaps.
One of the things we do inNamibia is we've got our
(23:33):
livestock guarding dog program.
Tell me about the dogs.
They're great Dogs, saving catsright.
They're the best.
We have a Turkish breed of dogthat we use.
It's called a Kangledog or theAnatolian shepherd.
Tell me the front Kangledog.
Kangledog it means theshepherd's dog and it is the
(23:57):
breed of turkey.
And what we've done is we havestarted using the dogs now gosh
27 years ago, and we breed themand we place them with the
farmers with their livestock.
They grow up with the livestockfrom a tiny puppy and then they
, by doing that, they protectthe livestock and they grow to a
(24:21):
fairly good sized dog and theybark loudly, they mark territory
and with that the predatorshear that there's something big
there and predators don't wantto come in and get themselves
hurt.
I think that's something thatmost people don't understand.
They hear of a predator a bear,a mountain lion, a cheetah, a
(24:42):
leopard, a lion and everybodythinks, oh, they're going to
come in and eat my livestock.
They come in and eat ourlivestock because oftentimes our
livestock is not protected welland it's opportunistic and
predators are opportunistic.
What they want to do is to findan easy meal that they can eat
and not get hurt.
(25:02):
And if you've got a big dogthere barking loudly and
smelling, because they'remarking their territory, the
predators stay away.
So it is an easy solution.
However, you have to train thefarmers.
The dogs are instinctual.
They've been doing this forfive to 6,000 years and we breed
(25:23):
the dogs and then place themwith the farmers and we put out
over 750 dogs in 27 years and westudy it and we get between 80%
to 100% reduction of livestockloss when the farmer has the dog
with his livestock, and notjust cheetahs, but to all
predators, because we like allpredators, because predators,
(25:46):
again, are extremely importantto maintain the health of the
ecosystem.
So that the dogs are thecatalyst for that yes, yeah, and
they protect so that thefarmers don't kill the predators
.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
And the farmers were open to this whole concept of
bringing dogs in.
I mean, there's a problem withgoing on in the bottle farm
Right, but in Namibia they hadand we're.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
In many places in Africa they've used dogs.
Quite often there's small dogs.
Oftentimes they're a huntingdog, which you don't want, and
you do not want a herding doglike the dogs that herd sheep.
That makes sense.
A guarding dog is big and itbarks loudly and it bonds with
(26:34):
your flock.
It doesn't chase them, itsticks with them and so this
breed of dog there's been about23 breeds around Europe
primarily that have been usedfor thousands of years that we
humans have forgotten about.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
They're smart, they're great and it makes sense
and the farmers have embracedthat.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Then they have.
When I first started, obviously, we did a lot of research on
their dogs and found out thatmost of the dogs, if you had a
dog, it was a small dog and ifit saw a predator it would start
chasing the flock and startedrunning.
As soon as the flock startsrunning to get away, the
(27:18):
predator goes into its behavior.
That's where the fun starts.
The flock run, chase, kill, yay, wow.
But if you have a guarding dog,they don't chase, they don't
get scared, they stay on theirground and bark and say I'm
really big, you're looking at myflock and, trust me, I'm gonna
come after you if you come nearmy flock.
(27:40):
I'm sure that's what they say.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
So let me ask you.
Then I read somewhere, becauseI have a friend that lives in
the Sierra, is up by the one ofthe gates of Yosemite and she
has goats, and this was Valerie,the former director of the zoo.
Oh great, yes, yeah.
And she has a donkey that hasthe goats, and she's the right,
(28:06):
and they've had some mountainlion issues and the goat, like
the dog, really stands itsground and says no, no, these
are my goats, so I'm usingdonkeys as well.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, we use donkeys with cattle primarily.
Oh, because the dogs don't do aswell with the cattle the calves
because the cattle are usuallyout on range, okay, and so it's
harder to feed your dog, and soif you can raise your donkey up
with the calves, the donkeybecomes the protector and then
(28:40):
the donkey eats the same grassand drinks water and can cruise
around with the cattle.
Small stock goats and sheepusually come in at night
throughout most places, andthat's why the dog works better,
because then you have a placewhere you can feed the dog.
Okay.
But in Australia they use thesedogs out in very large areas
(29:02):
and they've figured out how tomake dog feeders.
So you go out once a week andput your food in the dog feeder
that is just for dogs, and thesheep don't get them, and the
dogs do well there.
So I mean, the breed of dog isWow.
Guarding dogs are doing well inmany areas and we've been kind
of the people who have done theresearch on it from ground zero,
(29:25):
so it's been great too and Ithink it makes a lot of sense.
They're lovely dogs.
They're not a pet, but theyobviously, if you're not losing
your livestock, it is veryhelpful.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yes, Very good.
I love that program.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
And it's now.
The dogs now have spread intomany countries in Africa.
We've got a program going inSouth Africa and Botswana.
We're looking at it inSomaliland, but the culture is
different there and they don'treally think dogs are of value.
However, there are some peoplethat have dogs with their flocks
(30:02):
and we're now, through oureducation, teaching them that
dogs could actually help them.
So it's very interesting whatyou can do, even to see cultures
change.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So Nice, very nice, so you kind of mentioned it too.
I know you have a veryextensive volunteer program we
do and that means you canactually go there and work
correct.
But also a lot of globaloffices where people can and
help put on events, fund raise,create awareness, do all those
(30:33):
types of things for CheetahConservation Fund.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Absolutely, and so, volunteering, we take interns,
and so we get a lot ofuniversity students.
We get a lot of students fromUC Davis there because of the
vet aspect, so it's great We'vegot several students here.
Now this is the summertime forall of you in our winter here in
(30:57):
Namibia, and our students rangefrom veterinary to genetics, to
ecology, even to that of animalscience and a food science,
because we also have a creameryhere and a dairy farm that we
teach people again that valueadded side.
(31:19):
So we interns we welcome fromand they come from around the
world.
We also have lots of Namibiansthat we teach and they stay on
here.
We've got a lot that havegotten masters and PhDs, which
we're very proud of veterinarydegrees as well.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
So Nice and you also.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
so let's say, people is that one of the dogs that is,
one of the dogs was barking.
I love it.
I don't know what he's barkingat, but shoot, I love it.
He's got his nose out of jointtonight.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
My dog is behind me sleeping on the bed there.
No great.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah, Perky come.
What are you barking at, Perk?
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I see him.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Perk come here, come up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up,
hurry come, cookie, cookie,cookie, cookie, cookie cookie.
The universal language, yeah ohwell, he's not gonna come.
I love it.
That's the one thing is doesyour livestock guarding dog come
when it's called?
And the answer is no, they.
(32:27):
This breed of dog in particularhas an independent mind and
that's why we picked it, andthey live in vast open areas and
they decide well, you'recalling me, like I just called
him.
He says why should I come?
Yeah, I'm busy because there'ssomething at the door down there
, and so they look at you likeyou don't know what I'm doing,
(32:49):
and that is actually why they'rereally a famous breed.
They're very cat-like, aren'tthey?
Yeah, very independent, thankyou, yes, I love it.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
So, as a one thing is a volunteer, but you can
actually come, or I can, weanybody Listening can come visit
too and see the amazing workthat you guys are doing.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Absolutely.
We don't just take interns, wetake volunteers Of all walks of
life and what you can do.
Then if you come and volunteeryou learn what we do.
Not only do you help take careof cheetahs, but you can go out
of school program and maybe owna community to help.
We've got a one health programwhere we vaccinate you know,
(33:31):
rural livestock dogs and we'vegot all the things.
We've got our livestockguarding dogs that you can take
care of.
So we're a very active place.
We're open also as a safaristop I guess.
We've got a lovely guest houseand small little lodge where
(33:53):
people who are traveling and onsafari come and stay overnight
with us and learn a lot aboutwhat the programs that we're
doing.
We say, come and watchconservation in action.
So there's some people who liketo go on safari and there's
other people who like tovolunteer.
(34:13):
And then of course we wouldlove the students that want to
learn and study and do betterwith what they're going to do
and try to help wildlife on aglobal scale.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
So everybody's welcome there in some capacity.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, we like people.
Yeah, so, as you said, we dohave programs there, even in the
United States.
And right, you know you arefrom San Jose and I actually
went to school in San Jose andmy mother lives in Santa Cruz,
so I always feel like I'm a partof you and that's why I love to
(34:47):
talk to you, and the peoplethat are there listening, I hope
, are maybe from the area andmaybe I have some of you, yes,
yes.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
So that is great.
I'm going to talk to Marcus.
Somebody in the Bay Areabecause I know you have a large
following here as well Wants tovolunteer for for you, for the
Cheetah Conservation Fund.
How do they go about that?
I mean, of course, go to thewebsite and stuff, but is there
a local or a California office,so to speak?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
We have.
We are a United States 501 C3nonprofit organization, as well
as one in maybe in theSmolliland in Europe and UK and
Canada and Australia, but UnitedStates is our main organization
that supports us.
Our main office is in nearWashington DC, but we have
(35:42):
chapters through the country.
So we've got a very big chapterin Northern California because
that's my, my, where I'm fromhome.
Yes, and we welcome people tolearn about what we do because
we do, you know, love it.
If people want to volunteer, goand help us spread the word and
awareness there in yourcommunity as well.
(36:04):
So that's another reason whyhaving local groups to get
involved, to also volunteer withus, is very, very important.
We would love to have more helpfrom that area.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
All right.
So anybody that's listening,that's interested, of course,
can go to the CheetahConservation Fund website, get
all that information.
You can get information on allthe amazing work that Dr Marker
and her crew are doing.
Of course, check out if you're,if you've got that education
that you want to go do somethingon that level of volunteerism,
(36:39):
but also, too, if you want to govisit a very unique place and
have a very different experience.
I see your puppy now.
Yeah, this is not.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
This is the mother, so she's an old dog, but they're
all great.
But we welcome people to learnabout us and to go to our
website.
Our website is great.
We also have a really goodYouTube channel.
Yes, I've saw several videos,it's very good, yeah, and we we
love to have people engage withwhat's going on.
Not everybody might want tocome over here and do what we're
(37:11):
doing to try to save thespecies, but everyone can do
something if they care to getinvolved, and we try hard to get
all the people who are oursponsors and donors and involved
.
Another thing, too, is that wealso offer sponsorships.
You can actually sponsor aresident cheetah and orphan cat
(37:34):
that's never going to be able togo back out in the wild, and
with that you can go to ourwebsite again, cheetahorg, and
look at that sponsorship.
You can also sponsor a cheetahthat is living here or a
livestock guarding dog, andthose help us too.
Again, we also have to raisethe funds in order to keep our
(37:54):
work going, and our work is isvery, very big, because we're
trying to save the cheetahthroughout its range.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Right, right.
So that's.
That's a really good point, drMarker, is that this you know,
the governments and what haveyou are not funding all these
programs.
A lot of these programs arefunded with private donations
and whether it's on the groundthere or in the United States or
Australia, europe, wherever itis, people are doing lots of
(38:22):
fundraising and creatingawareness for the cheetahs and
their preservation, and anybodycan participate in that respect.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yes, and we really welcome that very, very much.
So would love to get to knowsome of the people that are
listening in, and I hope thatyou will go to our website and
learn more about what we'redoing to try to save the cheetah
.
And I do come back to America acouple times a year and would
even love to see people when I'mthere to try to share more
(38:52):
information.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
I think you're going to be in the Bay Area in October
of this year.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
I will be yeah and hope to see you.
You'll see me.
I look forward to that.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
One last kind of I don't know if it's a question or
just a thought Hope.
There's so much going on in theworld and you've seen so much
Hope.
Tell me your thoughts, I haveto hope.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
As you said, our motto is change the world,
change the world and change theworld.
We're not just talking aboutthis, we're talking about the
Cheetah Right and what we'vetried to do is identify the
problems and try to make adifference through the programs
for the people that we work with.
Most of the people are very,very poor and with that, helping
them with livelihooddevelopment, helping them
(39:41):
understand the value of wildlifeand the importance of a healthy
ecosystem is extremelyimportant.
Right not only the problem, butwe are the solution as people
and we can make a difference.
And I ask everybody to thinkabout the difference that they
can make every day.
(40:02):
And, as I said, you might notwanna come over to Africa and do
what we're doing, but, on theother hand, think about what
we're doing and help us.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
And it's also to your own backyard, right, I was
gonna say.
It's about being thinking aboutwhat you are surrounded by as
well here, and what you can do,whether that's planting for
pollinators or recyclingproperly or those types of
things.
Yes, every little bit helps,doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
It does absolutely, and having a global network of
friends means a great deal andto have people be aware that the
cheetah is the fastest landanimal, the most unique of all
of the 40 species of cats, butis losing that race, and if it
loses the race, we are alllosing that race.
(40:53):
And so I just assume, keep thefastest land animal on the land
and have it be a part of thework that is so important.
And some of what we also do isrehabilitate a lot of animals
and also have been rewildinganimals into extinct countries.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Ooh, I wanted to touch base on that so much.
I'm so fascinated with the ideaof back into India.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yes, well, we've got them back in India Love it we
and it's gonna be a long, longprocess because when an animal
goes extinct, bringing it backisn't very, very, very, very
hard.
So the cheetah went extinct inIndia about in the early 1950s,
right, and we've been workingwith the government now for over
(41:42):
20 years.
And they came up.
We worked with them on findingplaces where they could go to
that had enough wildlife, andhelp them with a whole master
plan along with several otherorganizations.
And in September of last yearNamibia gifted India the first
(42:03):
eight cheetahs to go back intoIndia after a 75 year extinction
.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
And that's pretty exciting.
Wow, and a couple years laterSouth Africa brought another 12.
And so on the ground now we'vehad a couple losses, we've had a
couple of births, but out ofthat we have animals on the
ground, wild and free in India,and there are more cats that
(42:31):
will be coming, because we'rebringing more animals in South
Africa and Namibia, smallnumbers at a time, so that they
can start repopulating the area.
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Yes, yes, thank you for sharing that and, yes, I
understand that the take a longtime for that to happen.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yeah, and so that's what we always say.
But it's very hard to bringthem back.
Yeah, people love to hear aboutreintroduction programs and
rewilding, but that's a lotharder than it is to keep the
animals living where they are,and so our work is to try to
keep living, having cheetahslive free and in the wild, by
(43:18):
working together withcommunities and developing
programs so that that will workfor the future.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Wonderful, wonderful.
Thank you so much, dr Marker.
Thank you for sharing all yourwealth of information.
You really are a beacon of hope, not only for the cheetah
people and the cheetahs, but forthe world.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Appreciate you too and look forward to seeing you
soon.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Many thanks again to Dr Laurie Marker for sharing the
work that the CheetahConservation Fund is
accomplishing.
I watched a David Attenboroughshow while I was working on this
podcast the Year Earth Changed.
It was filmed during thepandemic and showed how wildlife
started to bounce back while wewere in lockdown.
It showed cheetahs, leopards,penguins, even humpback whales,
(44:11):
and how they were affected bythe lack of people.
It was quite interesting, thelesson being that nature can
start to flourish again and wecan help with even the smallest
of changes to our behaviors andinteractions with the natural
world.
So makes me think Can theworld's fastest mammal outrun
(44:35):
its fate?
Well, based upon the chat withDr Marker and so many innovative
solutions that are happeningworldwide, yes, yes, there is
reason for hope.
For more information aboutcheetahs and all the
groundbreaking work being doneby the Cheetah Conservation Fund
, visit their website,cheetahorg.
(44:56):
You can see the volunteeropportunities across the globe
and in Namibia, how you can helpand even check out their
ecotourism vacation at theCheetah Sanctuary.
Thanks again, you guys.
Thanks for taking a listen.
You take care of each other.
Talk to you soon, thank you.
That sound was the voice of a cheetah.
They call it chirping and, yeah, it does kind of sound like a
bird.
In the world of animalconservation, there are the
names that everyone knows andthe iconic species associated
with them.
You have Dr Jane Goodall, andwe think of chimpanzees,
gorillas, dianfossi.
(00:41):
Well, today's guest is one ofthose conservationists, a
trailblazer, a pioneer, a womanthat has spent over three
decades fighting for thesurvival of the cheetahs in
Africa.
Today we are talking with aconservation icon, dr Laurie
Marker, founder and executivedirector of the Cheetah
Conservation Fund, based inNamibia.
(01:03):
Known as the fastest landanimal, the cheetah can go from
0 to 70 miles per hour in fourseconds, cover 25 feet per
stride, has an oversized heartand a small aerodynamic head,
nostrils that flare to let inmore oxygen, a flexible backbone
, distinctive black tear linesthat help reflect the sun and
(01:26):
semi-retractable claws that actlike cleats, like on a running
shoe.
They are also the oldest of thebig cats They've been around
for perhaps five million years.
Hi everyone, it's Vanessa fromTwo Chicks and a Ho, the podcast
that digs deeper intoconversations with amazing
people doing great things in ourworld.
(01:47):
Dr Laurie Marker is a researchscientist, a conservation
biologist, recognized as one ofthe world's leading experts on
the cheetah.
Her holistic approach,balancing the needs of people,
livestock and wildlife, iscredited with stabilizing and
increasing the world cheetahpopulation in Namibia, which is
(02:08):
considered the cheetah capitalof the world.
Dr Marker's work in Namibia andher role as the public face of
cheetah conservation worldwidehas brought her international
recognition.
She has been the recipient ofnumerous awards, including the
Tyler Prize for EnvironmentalAchievement and the Zoological
Society of San Diego's LifetimeAchievement Award, and she was
(02:32):
also named one of TimeMagazine's heroes for the planet
.
I'm so excited to introduce toall of our listeners Dr Laurie
(02:58):
Marker from the CheetahConservation Fund.
Welcome, dr Marker.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Thank you.
Great to talk with you andappreciate being able to share
more about the cheetah with yourlisteners.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
So thank you.
Yes, thank you, and I know thatyou're calling in from Namibia
and we were just talking abouthow cold it is there, which I
think is kind of an unknown factto a lot of people that it does
get very cold there.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, it is below freezing basically sometimes in
the winter.
We haven't had so for a fewweeks at a time.
It's actually snowing in SouthAfrica right now, so that gives
you an idea.
We this is very, very, veryunusual snow obviously in South
Africa, but we get all thefreezing cold up here and from
(03:48):
that I think it is interesting.
We are in a high desert, soNamibia is a very big country
it's about two and a half timesthe size of California, with a
lot of wildlife.
We are a country that isabundant with wildlife and love
our wildlife, and this is calledthe cheetah capital of the
world, but with that we onlyhave about 1500 cheetahs in this
(04:11):
country out of a worldpopulation of only about 7,000.
Most, all of them, are found inAfrica.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
And actually so we're just going to get right into it
.
I had heard so that Namibia wasthe cheetah capital of the
world, but when you say there'sonly 1500 there, you think I'm
starting to think.
To tell you the truth and stillI really started doing more
research on having thisconversation with you I had no
(04:42):
idea there was only 7,000cheetahs left in the world.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
It's very scary.
Just a number is one thing, butif you kind of look at how
they're laid out there, sincethe turn of the last century
there were about 100,000cheetahs found throughout,
probably about 45 countries.
We've lost over 20 countries inthe last 100 years to the
(05:09):
cheetahs extinction.
I started working with cheetahsin the early 1970s and from
there to today, around that timethere were about 35,000
cheetahs.
Today there are less than 7,000.
And it's not that we haven'tbeen working our tails off.
We've been able to stabilizeNamibia, but what's happened in
(05:31):
many of the countries?
We've got 20 of the remainingcountries where cheetahs are
found.
Well, they're found in.
Let me put it this way, thereare 31 populations in 23
countries and of those 31populations, 20 of them are
under 100 individuals.
So they're fragmented and it'svery, very scary.
(05:56):
In the last of the ancientcheetahs in Iran, there are only
about a dozen, which is verybad.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So that's not a viable population, is it?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
No, it's not, and I think we're watching that
throughout many of theseremaining cheetah landscapes and
the 20 countries where I saythey're under 100, they need
augmenting.
There are huge problems for thecheetah, and one why are they
endangered?
To begin with, yes, let's dothose facts.
(06:29):
As you and I know, what's goingon in the world and most all of
our species in the world todayare actually very threatened by
loss of habitat.
And from that, with the cheetah, it doesn't live in protected
areas.
Most of them are found outsideof protected areas, because the
protected areas have largerpredators lions and hyenas and
(06:53):
leopards that can steal theirfood, kill their young.
So the cheetah gets pushed outand is on lands where they're
living, with primarily livestockfarmers throughout their range.
So that's the biggest problem,isn't it Human wildlife conflict
?
We as people perceive a threatto a predator and if we don't
(07:15):
manage our livestock properly,then we have losses of our
livestock to predators.
But we have spent our timetrying to figure out why and how
people are living on the landwith those animals and how to
actually get them to understandbetter that they play a very key
role in the livestock lossesthat they have.
(07:36):
And we do that through trainingprograms that we call Future
Farmers of Africa and at thesame time, study how the cheetah
is living through our ecologyprograms with collars on the
cats, and we've got veryextensive databases and movement
patterns and that helps us towork with the farmers and the
people so that our mission isreally trying to live in harmony
(08:00):
with nature and you can evenlive in harmony with a predator
like the cheetah.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
So let me explain a little bit.
Please have you explain alittle bit further.
So we have the human wildlifeconflict, but then that kind of
plays into the whole loss ofprey as well for the cheetah.
So those two work togethercorrect to cause this larger
problem.
So tell me what is the prey ofthe cheetah and what's happening
(08:27):
to it.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Their prey is primarily a small to
medium-sized antelope, which youknow if I'm talking mostly to
Americans would be about a deersize, I would say and they end
down smaller so they can getbirds, they can get hair.
But with that, this sizeantelope also is living on the
(08:52):
land where the livestock is, andso if you've got this is where
the overgrazing can happen.
You end up with no grazing landthen for wildlife, and that's
where conflict comes together.
But so the loss of habitat andthe loss of prey are very tied
in together.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Okay, so and let me say then too, my understanding
is is if we lose, if a farmerthere loses one goat or one cow,
that's devastating.
That's not like going okay, youknow we have hundreds more to
back us up.
That can be very devastating toa farmer.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yes, many of them are living in rural areas, and one
of the problems in Africa isthat these rural areas you've
got pastoralists and there isnot a lot of management.
So it's actually the you know.
The problem with the sharedlands is that everybody wants
(09:54):
more livestock, and as you havemore livestock you have to have
more land.
But there's more people and sothere's less land, and so the
animals do overgraze the land,and once they've overgrazed the
land, then the land is actuallynot that good for even more
animals, so it gets degraded andthen from that it decreases the
(10:14):
amount of grazing for not onlythe livestock but also the
wildlife.
So those are some of the issuesthat we deal with, and, for
instance, we've developed ahabitat restoration program here
in Namibia where we're tryingto help restore habitat.
So grasslands will come back,and if we've got more grasslands
(10:34):
we can have more wildlife, andthen, of course, we could have
more cheetahs too.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Got it, so it's in full circle, right?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
And that's what the cheetah conservation is.
So we have a lot of differentprograms, but we've, in order to
find out what we needed to do,we did a lot of social surveys,
so going door to door, workingtogether with the farmers,
finding out what their problemswere, what their needs were,
engaging the farmers.
And now I set up the CheetahConservation Fund in 1990 here
(11:04):
in Namibia and from that we havebeen able to really work
closely with the farmingcommunities to develop programs
and work with them.
So they've trusted us quite abit.
And those programs are not onlyaround basic research on the
ecology of the cheetah and howit's moving through radio
telemetry, but the basic biologyand genetic makeup of the
(11:27):
population.
And so we do have a veterinaryclinic here at our center as
well as a genetics lab.
And then we have other programs.
We are a model farm where weactually farm livestock so that
the communities can see howwe're doing it in such a way
that we're not losing livestock,so that they can learn from
(11:49):
that being a model farm.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
I love that.
I love that idea.
That's a fantastic way ofworking with the people.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It works because you know, as you come in as a
predator biologist, it's likewhat are you?
You love your cheetahs.
You know we love our livestockRight, we're one as a livestock
farmer, and so I love mylivestock and the predators, and
by studying them I've been ableto teach the farming
communities that they too,through good management, can
(12:19):
actually live in harmony withpredators, not just cheetahs,
even leopards.
We've got hyenas around jackals, so it's a whole array of the
predators which are extremelyimportant for the health of our
ecosystems, which we as peoplealso don't understand that all
(12:40):
of these species are there for apurpose.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Right, right, so you did touch on it briefly.
You mentioned the geneticresearch that you've done and I
think the people that I havetalked to about cheetahs,
everybody kind of has that ideathat cheetahs are clones and I
say that loosely, I'm not ascientist Right, I think that
(13:02):
they're so similar geneticallythat one thing could potentially
wipe them out.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Okay, I was wondering if that was kind of accurate.
We would call them geneticallymonomorphic, being that they're
very much the same and thatactually goes from that.
They escaped the actually ano-transcript a global
extinction, back about 10 to12,000 years ago when the
(13:30):
Pleistocene extinction occurred.
The cheetah before that wasfound throughout basically the
whole world.
It had worldwide distributionin the arid lands, obviously, in
Savannah, in the Americas too.
Right, yeah, okay, yep, okay.
And actually cheetahs originatedfrom the Americas and then
crossed over land bridges, wentover into, you know, down into
(13:55):
Russia, down into Asia, downinto India, into Europe, even so
, they were pretty mucheverywhere then into Africa.
But around 12,000 years agowith the Pleistocene extinction,
the cheetah escaped theextinction but was only found in
remnant population, which webelieve is probably over in
(14:15):
Africa, where the populationthen repopulated.
But it repopulated Africa andAsia and not again in the
Americas.
Okay, so with that, then duringthe course, so they
reestablished, but with that itleft them the same.
So going through a bottleneck,large population going down to
(14:37):
only a few, and then thepopulation coming back, they're
all genetically the same.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Got it, got it, and so with that problem.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yes, okay, because if they see viruses and diseases
and cheetahs are verysusceptible to different or all
of the different, actuallyfeline and canine diseases Okay,
and we see that if one cat getsit, you end up with an outbreak
and it can be very devastating,one of which we have been
(15:09):
studying for a long time, whichis the coronavirus for cheetahs.
It manifests into what's calledfeline infectious peritonitis
and there you can have a veryhigh mortality, up to 60 plus
percent of the animals, becausethey're all the same, all the
animals are the same and whenthey see this virus they act the
same and it's mutated to thepoint where it can actually kill
(15:32):
off the cheetahs in pretty highnumbers.
So that obviously, when you'relooking at a small population
like 7,000 and only a hundredhere or a hundred there, then
how they respond to viruses, andthen all the other
complications that go along withaspects around climate change
(15:53):
and habitat loss and prey loss,that the numbers are very, very
small and that leaves them evenmore vulnerable as a species,
vulnerable to the ecological andenvironmental changes that are
occurring on Earth around them.
So we as an organization aretrying to save the species and
with that, have had to look at avariety of different programs
(16:16):
to try to combat, mitigate andhelp save the cheetah.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So I think you're I like it, I'm calling it your
motto, which is the cheetahconservation fund is changing
the world to save the cheetah,not the opposite direction,
which I love, and I think that'sthe the route of conservation
for cheetahs and, of course,many of or other very vulnerable
and iconic species.
(16:42):
So, yes, huh, interesting.
I've been writing all thesethings down, trying to figure
out.
There's so many things that thecheetahs up against and of
course, you guys are up againstas well, and you touched on it
briefly in terms of loss ofhabitat, but climate change and
how that's affecting it.
And you are actually seeing thereal-time effect of climate
change.
I mean, we're seeing it here inthe United States.
(17:05):
I'm sure I know it's global,but I mean just today you know
there's tremendous flooding onthe East Coast, that kind of a
thing, all of this.
You know climate change, andthere's still people that saying
it doesn't really exist.
But I think that you're seeingit too from the perspective of
the survival of the animals inNamibia.
Is that correct In?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
the wild?
Yes, right, and we were.
We worked throughout thecheetahs range.
So not only are we based downhere in Namibia, we have another
base up in Somali land, whichis in the corner of Africa, and
both of the two countries aresome of the are are some of the
most arid places on earth andwhere the cheetah lives in these
(17:44):
31 populations in 20 countries,are some of the most arid
landscapes.
And you say they're pushed.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
They're pushed more towards the, even the drier
landscapes, because of thehumans, because of humans.
Yes, right, okay got it.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Right, okay, and so yeah, that vulnerability is
something that we also aretaking into account and trying
to help those communities who,many of them, are pastoralists
and very, very poor ruralfarmers.
So, for instance, up in Somaliland, it is also a problem
(18:21):
around human wildlife conflict.
But what they have done withthat is that they've decided to
go out and steal young cubs,poaching them from the wild and
then selling them into theillegal wildlife pet trade,
which maybe makes sense from aSomali land or a rural
perspective, if you're in theHorn of Africa.
But most of the animals don'tmake it into the pet trade.
(18:44):
Obviously, wild animals are notsupposed to be pets.
But cheetahs are an animal thathave been revered by humans for
thousands of years.
They're the smallest of the bigcats.
Of course, they're thefastest-land animal, but because
they're fast, everything thatwas fast on them went away, are
(19:05):
powerful and dangerous.
So they don't have big,powerful claws like lions,
leopards.
They've got dog-like clawswhich dig into the ground and
help them run fast up to 70miles an hour.
They don't have very big teethbecause the teeth, where the
roots go from those canine teeth, go up into their nasal
(19:27):
cavities.
So when you're going 70 milesan hour.
You have to be able to breathe.
So what's happened is they'veevolved and they've got very,
very small canine teeth.
So there's nothing reallyaggressive on them and you can
chase them away from their prey.
It's called flight versus fight.
That's why they have beencaught and then sold into the
pet trade, because they purr andthey are nice, they can eat you
(19:51):
.
It's like a big kitty, right,except they don't last long.
For every one cheetah thatmight make it into the pet trade
, about four or five of them die, and if they do end up in the
pet trade, they only have alifespan of about a year or two.
So what we've had to do is stopthe trade by working in
Smolliland, and we have now inSmolliland over 90 confiscated
(20:17):
cheetahs at our center thatwe've had to develop there.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Let me ask.
So, when you say that theunderstanding, of course, that
whether it's the ivory industry,whatever you want to call it,
the ivory or animal parts andwildlife trafficking a lot of it
, of course is associated withpeople that they're trying to
just support their families andstuff, so what are you doing
(20:44):
with the people in Smolliland interms of the pet trade?
How does that balance out?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Well, that's good what we've done after 30 years
in Namibia.
By developing all the programswe have here, we've been able to
adapt those programs to many ofthe different cheetah range
countries that have differentproblems.
Most of the problems are humanwildlife conflict and livestock
management.
And so our Future Farmer ofAfrica program we've adapted and
(21:14):
developed it to work withfarmers up in Smolliland.
There they've got mostly goat,sheep and camels that they are
raising and they're very, verypoor.
It's the third poorest countryin the world and they've never
had any training.
And so we've now launched thisprogram, which was developed
(21:35):
here in Namibia, with the ruralcommunities telling us what they
needed to know so that theycould be partners with us in
conservation.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
And so that's pretty exciting.
And then, on another level, wework here in Namibia.
We again, we are a country thatloves our wildlife and we have
we still have a lot of wildlifeand the communities are actually
part of this and through whatare called conservancies, and
these are community-basednatural resource management
(22:07):
programs where the communitiesbecome engaged and right now,
most of them, as ruralcommunities, only have their
livestock.
And as you develop aconservancy and you have
wildlife, you can start lookingat a variety of other
livelihoods around that.
Some of the livelihoods inAfrica which are very profitable
(22:28):
are that around ecotourism andhaving areas that are there in a
very healthy wildlife areawhere you've got predators and
the communities can actuallybenefit from the wildlife as
well.
So we're trying to also teachother livelihood aspects, like
(22:49):
if you have your herd of goatsor camels, that potentially you
could have a value added bymaybe making something with it,
and if you have a goat or yourcamel, then you really don't
have anything more because thatwas it, that was it, yeah, so
you can milk your camel or yourgoat, you can make cheeses,
(23:11):
soaps.
One of the things we do inNamibia is we've got our
(23:33):
livestock guarding dog program.
Tell me about the dogs.
They're great Dogs, saving catsright.
They're the best.
We have a Turkish breed of dogthat we use.
It's called a Kangledog or theAnatolian shepherd.
Tell me the front Kangledog.
Kangledog it means theshepherd's dog and it is the
(23:57):
breed of turkey.
And what we've done is we havestarted using the dogs now gosh
27 years ago, and we breed themand we place them with the
farmers with their livestock.
They grow up with the livestockfrom a tiny puppy and then they
, by doing that, they protectthe livestock and they grow to a
(24:21):
fairly good sized dog and theybark loudly, they mark territory
and with that the predatorshear that there's something big
there and predators don't wantto come in and get themselves
hurt.
I think that's something thatmost people don't understand.
They hear of a predator a bear,a mountain lion, a cheetah, a
(24:42):
leopard, a lion and everybodythinks, oh, they're going to
come in and eat my livestock.
They come in and eat ourlivestock because oftentimes our
livestock is not protected welland it's opportunistic and
predators are opportunistic.
What they want to do is to findan easy meal that they can eat
and not get hurt.
(25:02):
And if you've got a big dogthere barking loudly and
smelling, because they'remarking their territory, the
predators stay away.
So it is an easy solution.
However, you have to train thefarmers.
The dogs are instinctual.
They've been doing this forfive to 6,000 years and we breed
(25:23):
the dogs and then place themwith the farmers and we put out
over 750 dogs in 27 years and westudy it and we get between 80%
to 100% reduction of livestockloss when the farmer has the dog
with his livestock, and notjust cheetahs, but to all
predators, because we like allpredators, because predators,
(25:46):
again, are extremely importantto maintain the health of the
ecosystem.
So that the dogs are thecatalyst for that yes, yeah, and
they protect so that thefarmers don't kill the predators
.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
And the farmers were open to this whole concept of
bringing dogs in.
I mean, there's a problem withgoing on in the bottle farm
Right, but in Namibia they hadand we're.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
In many places in Africa they've used dogs.
Quite often there's small dogs.
Oftentimes they're a huntingdog, which you don't want, and
you do not want a herding doglike the dogs that herd sheep.
That makes sense.
A guarding dog is big and itbarks loudly and it bonds with
(26:34):
your flock.
It doesn't chase them, itsticks with them and so this
breed of dog there's been about23 breeds around Europe
primarily that have been usedfor thousands of years that we
humans have forgotten about.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
They're smart, they're great and it makes sense
and the farmers have embracedthat.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Then they have.
When I first started, obviously, we did a lot of research on
their dogs and found out thatmost of the dogs, if you had a
dog, it was a small dog and ifit saw a predator it would start
chasing the flock and startedrunning.
As soon as the flock startsrunning to get away, the
(27:18):
predator goes into its behavior.
That's where the fun starts.
The flock run, chase, kill, yay, wow.
But if you have a guarding dog,they don't chase, they don't
get scared, they stay on theirground and bark and say I'm
really big, you're looking at myflock and, trust me, I'm gonna
come after you if you come nearmy flock.
(27:40):
I'm sure that's what they say.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
So let me ask you.
Then I read somewhere, becauseI have a friend that lives in
the Sierra, is up by the one ofthe gates of Yosemite and she
has goats, and this was Valerie,the former director of the zoo.
Oh great, yes, yeah.
And she has a donkey that hasthe goats, and she's the right,
(28:06):
and they've had some mountainlion issues and the goat, like
the dog, really stands itsground and says no, no, these
are my goats, so I'm usingdonkeys as well.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, we use donkeys with cattle primarily.
Oh, because the dogs don't do aswell with the cattle the calves
because the cattle are usuallyout on range, okay, and so it's
harder to feed your dog, and soif you can raise your donkey up
with the calves, the donkeybecomes the protector and then
(28:40):
the donkey eats the same grassand drinks water and can cruise
around with the cattle.
Small stock goats and sheepusually come in at night
throughout most places, andthat's why the dog works better,
because then you have a placewhere you can feed the dog.
Okay.
But in Australia they use thesedogs out in very large areas
(29:02):
and they've figured out how tomake dog feeders.
So you go out once a week andput your food in the dog feeder
that is just for dogs, and thesheep don't get them, and the
dogs do well there.
So I mean, the breed of dog isWow.
Guarding dogs are doing well inmany areas and we've been kind
of the people who have done theresearch on it from ground zero,
(29:25):
so it's been great too and Ithink it makes a lot of sense.
They're lovely dogs.
They're not a pet, but theyobviously, if you're not losing
your livestock, it is veryhelpful.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yes, Very good.
I love that program.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
And it's now.
The dogs now have spread intomany countries in Africa.
We've got a program going inSouth Africa and Botswana.
We're looking at it inSomaliland, but the culture is
different there and they don'treally think dogs are of value.
However, there are some peoplethat have dogs with their flocks
(30:02):
and we're now, through oureducation, teaching them that
dogs could actually help them.
So it's very interesting whatyou can do, even to see cultures
change.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So Nice, very nice, so you kind of mentioned it too.
I know you have a veryextensive volunteer program we
do and that means you canactually go there and work
correct.
But also a lot of globaloffices where people can and
help put on events, fund raise,create awareness, do all those
(30:33):
types of things for CheetahConservation Fund.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Absolutely, and so, volunteering, we take interns,
and so we get a lot ofuniversity students.
We get a lot of students fromUC Davis there because of the
vet aspect, so it's great We'vegot several students here.
Now this is the summertime forall of you in our winter here in
(30:57):
Namibia, and our students rangefrom veterinary to genetics, to
ecology, even to that of animalscience and a food science,
because we also have a creameryhere and a dairy farm that we
teach people again that valueadded side.
(31:19):
So we interns we welcome fromand they come from around the
world.
We also have lots of Namibiansthat we teach and they stay on
here.
We've got a lot that havegotten masters and PhDs, which
we're very proud of veterinarydegrees as well.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
So Nice and you also.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
so let's say, people is that one of the dogs that is,
one of the dogs was barking.
I love it.
I don't know what he's barkingat, but shoot, I love it.
He's got his nose out of jointtonight.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
My dog is behind me sleeping on the bed there.
No great.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah, Perky come.
What are you barking at, Perk?
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I see him.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Perk come here, come up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up,
hurry come, cookie, cookie,cookie, cookie, cookie cookie.
The universal language, yeah ohwell, he's not gonna come.
I love it.
That's the one thing is doesyour livestock guarding dog come
when it's called?
And the answer is no, they.
(32:27):
This breed of dog in particularhas an independent mind and
that's why we picked it, andthey live in vast open areas and
they decide well, you'recalling me, like I just called
him.
He says why should I come?
Yeah, I'm busy because there'ssomething at the door down there
, and so they look at you likeyou don't know what I'm doing,
(32:49):
and that is actually why they'rereally a famous breed.
They're very cat-like, aren'tthey?
Yeah, very independent, thankyou, yes, I love it.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
So, as a one thing is a volunteer, but you can
actually come, or I can, weanybody Listening can come visit
too and see the amazing workthat you guys are doing.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Absolutely.
We don't just take interns, wetake volunteers Of all walks of
life and what you can do.
Then if you come and volunteeryou learn what we do.
Not only do you help take careof cheetahs, but you can go out
of school program and maybe owna community to help.
We've got a one health programwhere we vaccinate you know,
(33:31):
rural livestock dogs and we'vegot all the things.
We've got our livestockguarding dogs that you can take
care of.
So we're a very active place.
We're open also as a safaristop I guess.
We've got a lovely guest houseand small little lodge where
(33:53):
people who are traveling and onsafari come and stay overnight
with us and learn a lot aboutwhat the programs that we're
doing.
We say, come and watchconservation in action.
So there's some people who liketo go on safari and there's
other people who like tovolunteer.
(34:13):
And then of course we wouldlove the students that want to
learn and study and do betterwith what they're going to do
and try to help wildlife on aglobal scale.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
So everybody's welcome there in some capacity.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, we like people.
Yeah, so, as you said, we dohave programs there, even in the
United States.
And right, you know you arefrom San Jose and I actually
went to school in San Jose andmy mother lives in Santa Cruz,
so I always feel like I'm a partof you and that's why I love to
(34:47):
talk to you, and the peoplethat are there listening, I hope
, are maybe from the area andmaybe I have some of you, yes,
yes.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
So that is great.
I'm going to talk to Marcus.
Somebody in the Bay Areabecause I know you have a large
following here as well Wants tovolunteer for for you, for the
Cheetah Conservation Fund.
How do they go about that?
I mean, of course, go to thewebsite and stuff, but is there
a local or a California office,so to speak?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
We have.
We are a United States 501 C3nonprofit organization, as well
as one in maybe in theSmolliland in Europe and UK and
Canada and Australia, but UnitedStates is our main organization
that supports us.
Our main office is in nearWashington DC, but we have
(35:42):
chapters through the country.
So we've got a very big chapterin Northern California because
that's my, my, where I'm fromhome.
Yes, and we welcome people tolearn about what we do because
we do, you know, love it.
If people want to volunteer, goand help us spread the word and
awareness there in yourcommunity as well.
(36:04):
So that's another reason whyhaving local groups to get
involved, to also volunteer withus, is very, very important.
We would love to have more helpfrom that area.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
All right.
So anybody that's listening,that's interested, of course,
can go to the CheetahConservation Fund website, get
all that information.
You can get information on allthe amazing work that Dr Marker
and her crew are doing.
Of course, check out if you're,if you've got that education
that you want to go do somethingon that level of volunteerism,
(36:39):
but also, too, if you want to govisit a very unique place and
have a very different experience.
I see your puppy now.
Yeah, this is not.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
This is the mother, so she's an old dog, but they're
all great.
But we welcome people to learnabout us and to go to our
website.
Our website is great.
We also have a really goodYouTube channel.
Yes, I've saw several videos,it's very good, yeah, and we we
love to have people engage withwhat's going on.
Not everybody might want tocome over here and do what we're
(37:11):
doing to try to save thespecies, but everyone can do
something if they care to getinvolved, and we try hard to get
all the people who are oursponsors and donors and involved
.
Another thing, too, is that wealso offer sponsorships.
You can actually sponsor aresident cheetah and orphan cat
(37:34):
that's never going to be able togo back out in the wild, and
with that you can go to ourwebsite again, cheetahorg, and
look at that sponsorship.
You can also sponsor a cheetahthat is living here or a
livestock guarding dog, andthose help us too.
Again, we also have to raisethe funds in order to keep our
(37:54):
work going, and our work is isvery, very big, because we're
trying to save the cheetahthroughout its range.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Right, right.
So that's.
That's a really good point, drMarker, is that this you know,
the governments and what haveyou are not funding all these
programs.
A lot of these programs arefunded with private donations
and whether it's on the groundthere or in the United States or
Australia, europe, wherever itis, people are doing lots of
(38:22):
fundraising and creatingawareness for the cheetahs and
their preservation, and anybodycan participate in that respect.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yes, and we really welcome that very, very much.
So would love to get to knowsome of the people that are
listening in, and I hope thatyou will go to our website and
learn more about what we'redoing to try to save the cheetah
.
And I do come back to America acouple times a year and would
even love to see people when I'mthere to try to share more
(38:52):
information.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
I think you're going to be in the Bay Area in October
of this year.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
I will be yeah and hope to see you.
You'll see me.
I look forward to that.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
One last kind of I don't know if it's a question or
just a thought Hope.
There's so much going on in theworld and you've seen so much
Hope.
Tell me your thoughts, I haveto hope.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
As you said, our motto is change the world,
change the world and change theworld.
We're not just talking aboutthis, we're talking about the
Cheetah Right and what we'vetried to do is identify the
problems and try to make adifference through the programs
for the people that we work with.
Most of the people are very,very poor and with that, helping
them with livelihooddevelopment, helping them
(39:41):
understand the value of wildlifeand the importance of a healthy
ecosystem is extremelyimportant.
Right not only the problem, butwe are the solution as people
and we can make a difference.
And I ask everybody to thinkabout the difference that they
can make every day.
(40:02):
And, as I said, you might notwanna come over to Africa and do
what we're doing, but, on theother hand, think about what
we're doing and help us.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
And it's also to your own backyard, right, I was
gonna say.
It's about being thinking aboutwhat you are surrounded by as
well here, and what you can do,whether that's planting for
pollinators or recyclingproperly or those types of
things.
Yes, every little bit helps,doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
It does absolutely, and having a global network of
friends means a great deal andto have people be aware that the
cheetah is the fastest landanimal, the most unique of all
of the 40 species of cats, butis losing that race, and if it
loses the race, we are alllosing that race.
(40:53):
And so I just assume, keep thefastest land animal on the land
and have it be a part of thework that is so important.
And some of what we also do isrehabilitate a lot of animals
and also have been rewildinganimals into extinct countries.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Ooh, I wanted to touch base on that so much.
I'm so fascinated with the ideaof back into India.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yes, well, we've got them back in India Love it we
and it's gonna be a long, longprocess because when an animal
goes extinct, bringing it backisn't very, very, very, very
hard.
So the cheetah went extinct inIndia about in the early 1950s,
right, and we've been workingwith the government now for over
(41:42):
20 years.
And they came up.
We worked with them on findingplaces where they could go to
that had enough wildlife, andhelp them with a whole master
plan along with several otherorganizations.
And in September of last yearNamibia gifted India the first
(42:03):
eight cheetahs to go back intoIndia after a 75 year extinction
.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
And that's pretty exciting.
Wow, and a couple years laterSouth Africa brought another 12.
And so on the ground now we'vehad a couple losses, we've had a
couple of births, but out ofthat we have animals on the
ground, wild and free in India,and there are more cats that
(42:31):
will be coming, because we'rebringing more animals in South
Africa and Namibia, smallnumbers at a time, so that they
can start repopulating the area.
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Yes, yes, thank you for sharing that and, yes, I
understand that the take a longtime for that to happen.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yeah, and so that's what we always say.
But it's very hard to bringthem back.
Yeah, people love to hear aboutreintroduction programs and
rewilding, but that's a lotharder than it is to keep the
animals living where they are,and so our work is to try to
keep living, having cheetahslive free and in the wild, by
(43:18):
working together withcommunities and developing
programs so that that will workfor the future.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Wonderful, wonderful.
Thank you so much, dr Marker.
Thank you for sharing all yourwealth of information.
You really are a beacon of hope, not only for the cheetah
people and the cheetahs, but forthe world.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Appreciate you too and look forward to seeing you
soon.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Many thanks again to Dr Laurie Marker for sharing the
work that the CheetahConservation Fund is
accomplishing.
I watched a David Attenboroughshow while I was working on this
podcast the Year Earth Changed.
It was filmed during thepandemic and showed how wildlife
started to bounce back while wewere in lockdown.
It showed cheetahs, leopards,penguins, even humpback whales,
(44:11):
and how they were affected bythe lack of people.
It was quite interesting, thelesson being that nature can
start to flourish again and wecan help with even the smallest
of changes to our behaviors andinteractions with the natural
world.
So makes me think Can theworld's fastest mammal outrun
(44:35):
its fate?
Well, based upon the chat withDr Marker and so many innovative
solutions that are happeningworldwide, yes, yes, there is
reason for hope.
For more information aboutcheetahs and all the
groundbreaking work being doneby the Cheetah Conservation Fund
, visit their website,cheetahorg.
(44:56):
You can see the volunteeropportunities across the globe
and in Namibia, how you can helpand even check out their
ecotourism vacation at theCheetah Sanctuary.
Thanks again, you guys.
Thanks for taking a listen.
You take care of each other.
Talk to you soon, thank you.
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