July 4, 2024 • 48 mins
What does it take to bring a species back from the brink of extinction? Join Vanessa from "Two Chicks and a Hoe" as she welcomes Monica Fox, a dedicated veterinary technician at the Oakland Zoo, to share the incredible comeback story of the California condor. Discover the awe-inspiring journey of North America's largest bird, whose wings span an impressive 9 to 10 feet, and learn about the unique features that help this majestic creature thrive.
From the desperate days of the 1980s, when the condor population plummeted to just 22 birds, to the groundbreaking conservation efforts that have helped their numbers rebound, Monica provides a riveting account of the challenges and triumphs in the battle against extinction. Hear about the pivotal role of captive breeding programs, the ongoing fight against lead poisoning, and the innovative solutions like copper bullets that are making a difference. It's a testament to what can be achieved through collaboration and dedication.
In this episode, we celebrate significant milestones, such as the first wild-hatched condor chick since the population crisis, and highlight the vital ongoing efforts that ensure the survival of this iconic species. Whether you're a wildlife enthusiast eager to spot these magnificent birds in their natural habitat or someone interested in the broader implications of conservation work, Monica's insights will inspire and inform. Tune in to understand the power of teamwork in conservation and how you can contribute to the noble cause of preserving the California condor.
California Condor Picture donated for use by: Tim Huntington
Check out his site: webnectar.com
US Fish and Wildlife Service
California Department of Fish & Wildlife
Los Angeles Zoo
San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance
Oakland Zoo
Ventana Wildlife Society
Peregrine Fund
Yurok Tribe
Things that make you say "Wow"!
For more episodes and additional information visit the Two Chicks and a Hoe website and our Facebook page.
Big thanks to our Producer, Casey Kennedy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Imagine a bird with a wingspan of 9 to 10 feet.
Think about that for a second.
That's the height of a standardbasketball hoop or a small
sailboat.
So a bird, a hardy speciesweighing up to 25 pounds, living
up to 60 plus years, is ascavenger feeding primarily on
(00:26):
carrion or dead animals, a birdspecies that survived mass
extinctions of the last ice age,yet the entire population was
reduced to 22 individuals by the1980s.
A cherished icon of the West,the prehistoric looking
California condor remains one ofthe world's most endangered
(00:48):
species.
North America's largest birdnarrowly escaped extinction in
the mid-1980s when the last 22wild California condors became
star participants in a captivebreeding program to keep them
from disappearing from the faceof the earth.
I think the thing that hasfascinated me the most about the
(01:10):
California condor and its storyhas been the amazing
collaboration amongstconservation organizations to
save this bird from extinctionZoos such as the Los Angeles Zoo
in San Diego, us Fish andWildlife, california Department
of Fish and Game and severallongstanding nonprofit
organizations.
(01:31):
They have all worked togethersince the 1980s to save this
animal from extinction.
That's pretty amazing to me.
(02:01):
Hi everyone, it's Vanessa fromTwo Chicks and a Hoe, the
podcast that brings you amazingpeople doing great things in our
world, and I'm so excited toshare with you a conversation
that I've been wanting to havefor many years with yet another
amazing person.
I'm so excited.
Today's guest is Monica Fox, whois a veterinary technician at
(02:22):
the Oakland Zoo in NorthernCalifornia, one of the zoos that
is involved in the preservationof the California condor.
Monica is also a team member ofthe California Condor Recovery
Program, so we're going to chattoday about this amazing bird.
How did it almost disappearfrom existence?
Who's involved in the effortsto help save it?
(02:44):
And you know this greatcollaboration amongst all these
organizations.
Hi, monica, thank you so muchfor being here today.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Hi Vanessa.
Thank you for having me.
I'm very excited to be here andto talk about one of my
favorite animals.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
I love it, I love it.
So I can't imagine you sayingthat, working at the Oakland Zoo
, which is such an awesome place, an awesome zoo with so many
species, and here you are sayingit's one of your most favorite
animals.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Well, oakland Zoo is how I even got to become
familiar with the condor.
I'm not from Californiaoriginally and I didn't know
that much about him.
Aren't you a cheesehead?
Yes, in Wisconsin.
Him.
Aren't you a cheese head?
Yes, in Wisconsin.
So Oakland Zoo really opened myeyes to the condor and I just
got hooked when I heard theirstory and I feel so privileged
(03:32):
and honored to be part of therecovery program for them
because they're just an amazingbird.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So awesome.
So let's talk about the bird,Okay.
So in my introduction Imentioned that they have a nine
to 10 foot wingspan.
Is that the largest?
Is that the largest?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
bird.
I believe it's the largest landbird in North America but I
think in other continentsthere's bigger birds, but the
Andean condor is not bigger, isit?
I don't think so.
I think so, I can't remember.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, that's fine, there's so many, so, but yes, so
all right.
So let's talk about the bird.
It's huge, it is huge.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Is it a vulture?
It's a vulture meaning itscavenges for its food, meaning
it eats dead things for all ofits meals, dead things to for
all of its meals.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So everybody, when they think of vultures, they
think oh gross, you know,because they stick their head
inside and you know, and theyget it all.
They get nasty.
But tell me that becausethey're not dirty birds.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
They're not.
They're very fastidious aboutcleaning themselves, and one of
their trademark features istheir bald head, and that is on
purpose, because when they dostick their head into carcasses
to get the good stuff, thentheir head doesn't get covered
with all of the intestines ofwhatever they're eating, and so
it does help them stay clean.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
So we always say bald is beautiful.
That is a great gross visual atthe same time.
But yes, I see that that makessense and I heard too that them
being bald, that after they dotheir business inside a carcass,
that the sun kind of beats itoff or burns it off, so to speak
(05:22):
.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Okay, I haven't heard that.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, that's what I heard about turkey vultures, so
I'm assuming that's across theboard for vultures as well,
since none of them really haveany feathers on their head,
right?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
yeah, yeah they also will jump into a pool of water
and just kind of cleanthemselves off too.
So yeah, they like being clean,even though they get dirty nice
, they get real dirty.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
So I heard too that, or I read.
I should say that they aresexually monomorphic Meaning.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Meaning you cannot tell the gender of the bird by
just looking at them.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Isn't that kind of, I guess, isn't that most for a
lot of birds, isn't it?
I was just thinking when I saidthat, think ostriches, you
could see the differences but Ithink about eclectus parrots.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
They're sexually dimorphic, so I think it just
varies among species okay.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So, particularly though in the california condor,
it's hard to tell thedifference, yes, between the
males and the females yes, got,got it.
All right.
So what is what theirhistorical range?
So now we're talking.
You know we're very focused inhere on California and their
current range.
But what was their historicalrange at one point?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Their historical range was from California to
Florida, western Canada and.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Northern Mexico.
Wow Okay, so we've losteverything, I guess, going
towards the East Coast.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yes, yes Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Okay, all right.
So the other great visual thatyou see on them now is this I
think it's a red tag, isn't it?
It's a wing tag, and it variesin color.
Oh, okay.
But yeah some of them are red.
Okay, yeah, and that's the tag.
That's their number, tag, right, it's their identifier.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Identifier.
Yeah, most condors also havemicrochips in them.
So when they're in hand theycan be scanned the microchips in
them.
So when they're in hand theycan be scanned.
The microchip can be scanned.
But the wing tags are a visualeasy to spot from the ground
identifier and each flockthroughout California they have
(07:38):
different kind of ways of usingthe wing tag.
So the central flock uses colorcoding of the wing tags that
pairs also with the numbers onthe wing tag.
So one the central flock usescolor coding of the wing tags
that pairs also with the numberson the wing tag.
But up at the Yurok tribe flockin Northern California they
have one color but differentnumbers on the wing tag.
(07:59):
So they all have wing tags butthey each site does it a little
bit differently.
Okay, how they distinguish whatthe tag actually means, Okay.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
But they all have tags.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
They all have tags and that equates to their stud
book number.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Okay, wait a minute, we'll back up here.
Stud book number.
Tell us what the stud book is.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So the stud book is yes?
we finally get to talk about thestud book, the species survival
plan, and there's a lot ofspecies involved in it and a lot
of species that are at zoosinvolved in it, excuse me and
they all get assigned a numberand that's just a way to help us
keep track.
It also helps with us knowing,for breeding purposes, who
(08:43):
should go with who, helps withus knowing for breeding purposes
who should go with who.
It's just an easy way to keeptrack of all of the individuals,
but then also an easy way toidentify them among the multiple
organizations that work withcondors.
We just call them by their studbook numbers and some
organizations will name thebirds, some don't, so the stud
book number is a consistent wayto identify the birds.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
I always called it the like tinder of the animal
world, the stud book, you know.
So, yes, this is my number.
So cool, Thank you, Awesome.
So the numbers, let's talkabout the.
I mean I, you know, nowhere inmy research for this
conversation actually did I findthat this was, you know, at one
(09:27):
point, a bird that had millions, that kind of thing.
I never actually saw any truenumbers or figures associated
with that.
Of course, I saw a lot ofnumbers associated with what
happened in the 80s, so let'stalk about that.
Monica, what did we get to here?
You know?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, well, the numbers were hard to track.
I think there was a lot of them, so it was hard to count them
all.
But also because they have suchwide ranges where they fly it
was hard to track them all downand really at that point there
wasn't a need to count them andto see how many there were,
(10:06):
point.
There wasn't a need to countthem right and to see how many
there were there were, they said.
One thing that I read was thatit wasn't possible to track
their population until the 80sum, and that was done by a newly
developed photographic method,um, which just essentially was a
way that they photographed thearea and then counted the birds
and moved to another area,counted the birds, and so
(10:28):
tracking wasn't done, and but italso wasn't necessary.
So I agree, we don't havenumbers to know how many there
were, way back in the day notuntil the eighties and people
started to notice that thepopulation had diminished, that
they started to track thepopulation.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So the California condor was the first species to
be listed under the EndangeredSpecies Act in 1967.
The very first, so the iconicspecies for that, unfortunately.
Yes, very first.
So the iconic species for that,unfortunately, but we came down
to, came down to 22 birds,didn't it?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yes, in 1982, there was only 22 remaining.
So they knew at that pointsomething had to be done,
otherwise they would alldisappear.
So yeah, it was down to 22.
What?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
happened.
What did they do?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So over the next five years from that point, they
trapped them all to All of them.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah, all of them.
To get them into captivity, tostart a captive breeding program
, because they knew if theydidn't do that, the species
would go extinct.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
So I get it.
So the idea that to take all ofthem from the wild, yeah, and
again, it's to protect them andto see if they could do some
breeding in in, in captivity, tosee if they could then build
this population right.
So what so?
The more I read to the, itseems to me like the, the, the
(12:02):
foundation for their demise, hasbeen lead poisoning correct?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
yeah, and again, that wasn't scientific data at that
point, and right there were.
I think there were multiplereasons, but the assumption is
that lead was the number onekiller of the condors and,
honestly, that's still thenumber one killer of condors,
and I think, as they learned,that lead was the problem,
(12:28):
that's what made them think inhindsight about that was the
problem back then too.
So they just noticed that it wasa problem, so they presumed
that that was the problem fromback in the day, when they had
no idea why they were dying off.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
So why lead?
So what does lead do and wheredoes it come from?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Well, the primary reason that they get exposed to
lead is because they'rescavengers, as we discussed,
meaning they eat dead things,and so it could be.
They eat a squirrel thatsomebody shot with a lead bullet
and left there, and then sothey eat the squirrel which has
(13:09):
the lead, and it takes a tiny,tiny fragment of lead to poison
a bird, and so that could itcould be as simple as somebody
just shooting a dead squirreland leaving it there, and then
the bird comes and eats thatthere, and then the bird comes
and eats that.
(13:29):
It could be, uh, somebodyshooting a deer and pulling, you
know, gutting it in the fieldand leaving the guts and taking
the deer, but then the condorswill come eat the gut pile again
getting exposed to lead, and itjust takes a little bit is what
you're saying I meanmillimeters big really.
I've seen that we've pulled themout of condors and I've
measured them and sent them offto researchers and it's a
shockingly small fragment thatcauses a big problem for them
(13:52):
and then it gets in theirbloodstream and then it gets
into their organs and theirbones and then we could get it
we can with the treatment we do.
We can get it out of theirbloodstream but then re is still
in their bones and their organs.
So it's kind of a constantproblem and the birds have
somehow managed to live with ashockingly high level of lead in
(14:13):
their blood stream.
Cause what does it do to them?
It causes a lot of differentproblems, but we often see
neurologic problems where theyjust seem kind of loopy and
unsteady.
It causes anorexia, where theydon't want to eat.
It causes problems with theirdigestive tract and eventually
(14:34):
it just will affect so manyorgans that it just kills them.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Okay, so clearly quite a problem, very big
problem with condors.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yes, so clearly quite a problem, very big problem,
with condors.
Yes, so are they still usinglead ammunition?
And I ask that because in myreading I read that they had
(15:11):
passed several bills inCalifornia, or were working on
it at a certain point, to getrid of or to outlaw the use of
lead ammunition in certainhunting areas, which I didn't
think was broad enough, but okay.
And then years later they addedthat to basically say no more
lead ammunition.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yes, that's correct.
I can't remember it was fairlyrecent that that happened.
I can't remember it was fairlyrecent that that happened.
I can't remember the exact year, but yeah, it started out with
certain areas and then it becamethe whole state of California.
And one message I do want toget across is that the Condor
Recovery Program and all themembers, we are not anti-hunting
.
We support hunters and ranchers.
(15:43):
We want to find a way to workwith them to save this species
and that's why some of theinstitutions and organizations
involved in the Condor RecoveryProgram they put a lot of time
and effort and resources intonon-led outreach for the public.
And they provide copper bulletsto ranchers and people that want
(16:07):
them, just as a way to worktogether, because we don't want
to take away the hunting for thepeople that love to do it right
.
Um, but it is a problem for allanimals.
It's not just condors.
It just there are certainthings about condors that they
just it affects their populationmore significantly, but it, you
know, affects bald eagles andgolden eagles and turkey
(16:29):
vultures.
So it's just so.
If we can help with thatproblem, it will help many
species.
But since the californiacondors are so affected by it
and there's so few of them,right, their numbers are so low
yeah, we really want to get theeffort, put the effort in to try
to save them.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
I love it.
I love it again.
That's a different type ofcollaboration amongst you know,
not outside, outside of thecalifornia kind of program and
all these wonderfulorganizations which we'll talk
about in a sec, but, um, I lovethe idea of working with hunters
you know, it's that is trueconservation in my book.
the idea of everybody is aplayer in it.
It's that is true conservationin my book the idea of everybody
(17:05):
is a player in it.
Let's work all together,because conservation is not just
about the bird.
It's about the bird and theenvironment and the people and
everybody that's affected by ithas to make the pie complete.
So, yes, great, awesome.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
As of 2022, we have 561 total condors 347 are in the
wild and 214 are in captivity.
So that's it's, overall, stilla shockingly low number if you
think about it.
If there was only 561 peopleleft on the planet, yes, but
(17:42):
considering where it started,it's significant and it's going
in the right direction for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Okay, so that's, that is, from 22 birds right In the
80s, correct?
Yes, all the way up to 561.
Wow, wow, that is, that's anamazing, that's amazing success.
I know that they're not out ofthe woods, so to speak, and I'm
sure they're still listed as anendangered species as well, but
(18:10):
that is big success.
So tell me then, how did so?
They brought all these birds in, think Los Angeles Zoo, san
Diego Zoo, were big players inthe process, two of the first
zoos right in SouthernCalifornia to be involved and
(18:34):
they took eggs.
Did they take eggs from thewild or at that point, where the
birds already the birds werealready in.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
The birds were in captivity, and so any eggs at
that point were laid incaptivity.
Got it, got it.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
So then, all those animals stayed in captivity and
tried to build up thispopulation again.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Got it?
Yes, yes, it wasn't.
Until what year was it?
In 1992, they reintroducedcaptive, bred condors into the
wild.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
All right, so go back a few years, so in 82.
They took the last 22 in.
So I'm trying to get the.
I want the listeners tounderstand this timeline Right,
because this isn't.
I mean, it sounds like a longtime ago but it's not.
It's not like high school years, but in 82, the last 22 animals
(19:27):
came in from the wild.
They were captured and broughtin and that was to save them
from extinction.
Five years later all theremaining wild condors were in
captivity.
That was in April of 1987.
The last wild condor wascaptured and brought in.
So then nobody was out in thewild anymore.
They were at these twofacilities in Southern
(19:48):
California Los Angeles Zoo andSan Diego Zoo and it started
from there.
And I know you and I hadmentioned the California Condor
Program, recovery program, whichstarted in the late 70s and I
know that you are a member, ateam member of it, as well as
the Oakland Zoo, and thisprogram is put together, isn't
(20:08):
it just?
It's an international multieffort to save this bird from
total extinction.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, it's pretty amazing to see all of the
organizations and institutionswork together for this.
I remember every year there's acondor field meeting, which is
a meeting where all the fieldbiologists and researchers and
everybody involved comestogether and talks about latest
research and populations andgoals and all of that.
(20:39):
And I went to my first one in2014 at the Santa Barbara Zoo
and I just remember beingshocked at the amount of people
just in one room together allwith the same goal, and it was
so inspiring to me and it justblew my mind and it really gave
me a really good impact abouthow much people care about this
(21:03):
species.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
That's, I think, monica, we go back to.
One of my original statementswas the idea that all these
organizations have come togetherto save this bird, and it's
just kind of mind-blowing to me,even back whenever, the 70s,
the 80s, to today, that this isstill happening, that it just
(21:27):
gives me such hope, such hopenot just for this particular
species, but for lots of stuff.
I want to.
I think it's important.
I want to say the names of theorganizations because I want our
listeners to understand thedepth of who's involved here.
So we have the Peregrine Fund,the Ventana Wildlife Society,
(21:48):
the National Park Service, theSan Diego Zoo, the Los Angeles
Zoo, oregon Zoo, santa BarbaraZoo, oakland Zoo, chapultepec
Zoo in Mexico, arizona Game andFish Department, the California
Department of Fish and Wildlife,the Utah Division of Wildlife
Resources, the Bureau of LandManagement, us Forest Service,
the Federal Government of Mexico, the Yurok Tribe and many other
(22:13):
NGOs that we could just keeptalking, which is a really good
sign that look, all thesewonderful organizations and all
the passion behind this to savethis bird.
That's really fantastic.
And and as Monica and I weretalking as well, you know, about
stud books and stuff like that,I, I, I want listeners to
understand.
I know, Monica and I feel verypassionate about this that you
(22:35):
can see here how many zoos did Ilist off?
Zoos sometimes get really get abad rap.
But I think what people don'tunderstand and what they're not
seeing when they walk throughthe gates is the tremendous
amount of conservation workthat's being done behind the
scenes.
And that's why I feel it's soimportant to get this message
out, because if it wasn't forthe zoos, this bird wouldn't be
(23:00):
around anymore.
And maybe that's a very broadstatement on my part, because I
know there's all these othergreat organizations, but it
really was those two zoos thatstarted that, you know, getting
them in and taking care of them.
So, yeah, my hat's off.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
That's great, and I think zoos nowadays we don't
just have animals for people tocome look at.
We have that because that's whatinspires future animal lovers
and the people that will takecare of the species.
But zoos do conservation workand we at Oakland zoo do a lot
of it, and that's one thing thatI love about Oakland Zoo.
(23:36):
It makes me so proud to workthere, and the California
condors are not the only localspecies that we work to save, so
it's a big part of what we do,but it's not the only one.
So I'm thankful to work at aplace like that and it makes me
proud and it is.
I mean, I think that the effortthat I see with this particular
species is it gives me chillsevery time I think about it,
(23:59):
because I just love it and Ijust love the species and I
think all of these peopleworking together is amazing.
And you know, back when theyhad to pull the last 22 birds
and that wasn't an easy decisionand some people were against it
back then and I can't help butunderstand why.
There's two sides to everystory and taking an animal out
(24:20):
of its wild habitat to start docaptive breeding Some people
thought, well, maybe it's justtime for them to go.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And you know, I was going to ask you about that too,
the whole idea of, of thistremendous effort, and I can't
imagine the funds that have gonetowards this.
And you're right, I'm sure somepeople would say, well, why not
?
You know, put it towards.
You know a species that hasmore population, you know that
kind of thing.
It's equally not equally, butendangered, but has more for
(24:50):
genetic purposes.
You know, I think about that,but then I think how can we let
this animal disappear as well?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, it's a beautiful bird and it's it's so
hard because, as animal lovers,every animal is important it
doesn't matter if it's a littlecentipede or it's a big elephant
, we they're all important.
So it is hard to kind of say,okay, this one gets this many
resources right doesn't, andsome people don't see the beauty
(25:19):
of condors, and that's okay,they don't have to.
But there is a very large groupof people and a large group of
organizations and institutionsthat do see the condors are
worth fighting for and bringingthem back to have stable
populations.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Serves really as a true iconic species of
conservation, kind of like whatthe bald eagle was, and look
where that came, look where thatwent, how awesome.
That's such an awesome successstory.
Yes, definitely, bald isbeautiful Bald is beautiful.
Woo-hoo, Okay, so you mentionedthat reintroduction of the
species started in 1992.
(25:55):
Yes, Okay.
So now are they still hatchingeggs in captivity and then
releasing these I guessjuveniles or adult birds into
the?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
wild?
Yes, they are, and with all thepopulation studies that go on
with condors, it's known that ifwe were to stop the captive
breeding, the population wouldjust decline again.
So there, although a lot ofbirds are being the eggs are
being laid and birds are beinghatched in the wild, which is
(26:28):
exactly what we want because ofthe threats to the birds in the
wild.
If the constant influx that isbeing done with the captive bred
birds going into the wild iswhat is sustaining the
population, so if we stopped thecaptive breeding and stopped
releasing captive bred birdsinto the wild, the population
would just go back down.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
And and that's because of the the threats that
brought them to that point arestill there.
But then actually there's morenow isn't there.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
There's always been several, and I know we talked
about lead, which is the biggest, so wait a minute though Lead
ammunition has now been outlawedRight, but people still have.
You know, down in the garagethey have ammo from 10 years ago
and, to be honest, the copperammunition that is what is hoped
to be the alternative isexpensive and it's harder to get
(27:23):
and then, when COVID hit, itwas even harder to get.
So there's a lot of obstaclesfor people to buy the copper or
to get the copper bullets that'sout of their control.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
So I'm assuming too that you can order lead
ammunition from another state.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I don't remember that .
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I feel like there's some rules about it, but I don't
know I'm not into that either,but I understand that lead is
still an issue then, oh, it'sthe biggest issue, but there's
other issues.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
I mean they we have people accidentally shoot them
or they get electrocuted frompower lines.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
They drown, they so there's micro trash is the new
one, I guess.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, it's not too new, but it's definitely a
problem.
Um, condors are relentlesslycurious and they um like to pick
at everything with their beaksand they also um will ingest it
and then they feed it to theirchicks and then it causes, you
know, intestinal blockages andcauses them to get sick.
(28:25):
So micro trash is definitely aproblem, especially for birds
that live in areas that peopleare around, because people throw
their trash and then they takeit up to their nest and then it
feeds they feed it to theirchicks well, we're expanding out
too, aren't we?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
into the areas where these birds live now, I mean
hiking and recreationalactivities.
Right got it.
And with the population ofhumans, we're spreading further
and further yes, got it got itall right.
So there is.
There is animals out in thewild and animals in captivity.
I got it, so this is acombination of success, so to
(29:02):
speak.
Yes, you have to have both inorder for success.
But you mentioned too thatbabies, hatchlings chicks, are
being born in the wild.
Yes, that's awesome.
It's so exciting.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
The first one was in 2004.
It was a big milestone thefirst successful chick hatched
in the wild, which was in 2004.
It was a big milestone, thefirst successful chick hatched
in the wild, which was justincredible.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Just incredible.
So, and it's great, we weretalking about the wing tags
earlier and you're right thatall condors have wing tags, but
when they're hatched in the wild.
They obviously aren't born withthe wing tags, so they don't
get a tag until they are able tobe trapped and checked by the
biologists.
So when you get to see a condorout in the wild without a wing
(29:45):
tag, it's just amazing.
It's my screen, my phone screenpicture is an untagged juvenile
wing condor.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Have you seen them, Monica?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, I've seen them, yeah so this particular one I
saw was at Pinnacles.
This was several years ago, butyeah, I was at Pinnacles
National Park and I got to seeone.
And you know, the juvenileslook different than adults, so
they're easy to tell thedifference physically.
But then also the lack of awing tag that means they haven't
been touched by humans yet.
(30:15):
And that's what we want.
Haven't been touched by humansyet.
And that's what we want, and Iguess at some point we will stop
tracking individuals, but it'swe're not there yet.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Got it.
I too have seen them, so I Isaw them at Big Sur, which is
part of the Pinnacles, I thinkright.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
It's part of Ventana, so Pinnacles and Ventana work
very close together becausegeographically they're pretty
close together.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
So in fact I wanted to tell the listeners if you
want to see condors flying inthe wild, there's actually, if
you're in the California area,you can see them, you can.
There's the Ventana Wildernessand Big Sur of course, part of
that, the Pinnacles NationalMonument Park, where Monica just
mentioned.
There's and I'm not sure if I'msaying this correctly Cespe
(31:02):
Condor Sanctuary in the LosPadres National Forest, the
Sierra San Pedro MartirMountains of Northern Baja
California, mexico.
So they're also now I knowthey're doing reintroduction
back into the Mexico area andthen the Vermilion Cliffs
National Monument in Arizona.
So that's amazing, yeah, so Imean.
So there's lots ofopportunities there to see like
(31:25):
I have seen them in Big Sur.
I actually didn't see themflying.
They were at the area, thevisitor center, sitting on poles
and you know, as you canimagine, the jaw dropping.
It stopped, everybody stopped.
Car stopped, everybody stopped,which was great because it was
quite a sight to see, but, yes,pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, I've gotten pretty lucky.
I do see them often when I go.
I go to Big Sur a lot and I doget to see them often.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
And they're just amazing to watch.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Their wingspan is huge and they just soar and you
know, like I said before,they're really curious and so
they'll come down to where carsare and they'll just be there,
even though we want them awayfrom people.
Yes, yes, um, it does give youa chance to see them up close
and it's just beautiful andthey're a sight to be seen and,
(32:15):
yeah, they're really.
It's really special when youget to see them in the wild,
just because there's not thatmany of them.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
So it's, it's a treat for sure, I think you just said
it that opportunity to see themin the wild it was for me and
really, you know, just stoppedyou in your tracks.
This is, this is such a bigbird.
Your tracks this is this issuch a big bird and it's such an
(32:43):
amazing animal that I, I, Ihope people want to see them,
because it inspires that, thatlet's make sure we save them,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Yeah, I think that their whole story is inspiring
and they're very resilient birdsand they just have hung on and
we're helping them as much as wecan and I think that they'll
pull through, I think, with allthe efforts that are happening,
if those continue.
And yeah, but they're majesticand they're beautiful and I have
(33:11):
a big soft spot for them,that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
And it sounds to me like you have hope as well.
I do.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
I have hope because I see all the people working so
hard for them.
That's for sure, and it soundsto me like you have hope as well
.
I do.
I have hope because I see allthe people working so hard for
this.
It's inspiring to me.
Every year I go to the fieldmeeting and I get to see all
these people and I'm a tiny,tiny, tiny part of it.
But it makes me so proud to bea part of it because the people
the other rest of the people arejust incredible and we, in a
(33:38):
way, I feel we're kind of onebig family fighting the good
fight and, yeah, and we're doingit for this bird that we all
love.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Awesome.
Yeah, thank you, you're welcome.
Thank you so much, hey.
So, listeners, as usual, I'mgoing to have on our website
some links for you to go to ifyou're interested in finding out
more information.
You know, I think US Fish andWildlife, california Department
of Fish and Wildlife, has somegreat information up there.
I'm going to list, of course,our zoos, the ones that are near
(34:11):
and dear to our hearts, becauseit's great.
The collaboration is great,they're doing amazing things
together and I think this servesas a great model for so many
things that we could all dotogether.
So check out the website.
Anything to add, monica, aboutthis incredible bird and the
(34:33):
program.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Just go out and try to find them.
If you can go to Pinnacles orgo to Grand Canyon or go.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Oh, the Grand Canyon.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yeah, and then there's a new flock up in
Northern California north ofEureka.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
There's definitely a smaller one Is that with the
Yurok tribe.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, that's with the Yurok tribe, yep.
So it's a smaller populationbut is growing.
So hopefully those will bevisible to people up there and
that was an important onebecause of the historical
connection with the NativeAmericans.
So that was really moving forus to get birds back up in that
area too.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
So yeah, this is a very symbolic bird for many
Native folks, isn't it?
Yes?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
it is Very much so Thunderbird?
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Did I hear Thunderbird or Powerbird is the
name that they've given the bird?
I haven't heard that.
Yeah, because of theirconnection to it.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
It doesn't surprise me.
Yeah, go out and find somecondors and I hope you get
inspired by their story, like Iwas.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Like I am, yeah, like I am very much.
So.
Thank you so much, monica, foryour time, your passion and
everything that you give to ourworld.
Thank, you.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Thank you, Vanessa Thanks.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
All right, all right, listeners, take care of each
other.
We'll talk to you soon.
Monica and I continued ourconversation and she explained a
little bit more detail aboutthe lead poisoning, and I wanted
you guys to hear this.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah, it was more so about the lead treatment that
happens with a bird when theyhave lead poisoning.
So a fact that I found was from1992 to 2023, there have been
126 documented deaths from leadpoisoning in the free-flying
population.
So, as we've said, it's thenumber one threat to condors.
(36:27):
That's over 20% of thepopulation.
Yeah, it's a big deal.
So how the birds are actuallytreated is?
It all starts in the field withthe biologist at the different
flock sites, and the biologistwill handle and trap their birds
on a regular basis to replacewing tags or different monitors,
(36:50):
and they'll often take bloodand for different research
studies, but then also to justcheck the lead levels of the
bird because we know it's such aknown problem.
It's a routine part of when abird gets handled.
They get their blood tested,excuse me.
So also if birds are showingwhat we call clinical signs of
(37:12):
lead toxicity, like I said, kindof acting off or not eating or
just down in the dumps, they'llalso check the lead levels from
the blood at that time.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
So biologists see that in the wild and they
recognize that something mightbe wrong.
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
The bird is then captured, yes, and then brought
in and sometimes the birds arecaptured and they look normal,
but then on the blood results wefind out that they do have high
lead.
So, condors have this shockingability to live normally with a
very high blood lead level,which is unheard of, and we
(37:49):
don't know why condors can dothat, but they can, and so
oftentimes we don't see themacting sick in the wild, but
when they do, that's a definitething that the biologists notice
.
But, like I said, the biologistswill also handle normal looking
birds but check their blood aswell.
So at this point they're out inthe wild still, but in one of
(38:12):
their catch pens being handledby biologists.
So then if they determine thatthat condor has high lead levels
, they'll crate the bird andtake it to a couple different
options.
But Oakland Zoo is one of theoptions.
So we primarily get birds fromthe Central California flock,
(38:32):
which is Pinnacles and Ventana,and with the addition of the
Yurok site in NorthernCalifornia we've also helped
with the medical care of thebirds from that flock.
So for lead treatment the birdswill come to Oakland Zoo.
We have a pen just for them andthat's on zoo grounds but not
by the public area, and a littlebit in a quieter area for them.
(38:56):
And we do additional exams thatconsist of checking for lead
fragments with x-rays, becauseit's metal.
So we'll see it on x-ray andthat's how we know if a bird has
a lead fragment in it.
Well, of course, we don't knowthat it's lead, but we presume
that it's lead.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Lead fragment from ingestion.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Okay, not from like bullet scatter or whatever.
Correct, I'm not saying theright terminology.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
It's usually ingestion.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
It's usually in their GI tract, so yeah, from eating
something that had lead bullets.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
So the if the hope is that there's no fragment, of
course, because if there is afragment, then we have kind of
we modify, well, we add on apart of a treatment to try to
get them to regurgitate ordefecate out that lead fragment.
But if they don't have a leadfragment then we don't have to
(39:48):
add that part on.
But regardless of a fragment orno fragment in the bird we do
chelation treatment, andchelation means it's a drug that
draws a substance out from theblood and then they excrete it
in their urine.
Got it.
So the chelation agent that weuse is calcium EDTA, and it's an
injection that they get once aday for five days and then along
(40:12):
with that we give them sub-Qfluids to help just support
their body during this treatment.
So we do that once a day forfive days.
On day five we take blood againto check their levels.
We usually have to wait acouple days for those results to
come in and then if the leadlevel is not down to an
(40:34):
acceptable level, then werestart treatment after two days
of rest.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
And the bird.
It doesn't hurt the bird or no,it's not something, okay, yeah.
There's no long-term effectsfor this.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
We don't know Besides getting obviously rid of the
bird.
Yeah, you know, we don't knowbecause we don't have studies
and data to show of a60-year-old bird that has gotten
calcium EDTA.
But that's the best treatmentwe have right now with the
knowledge that we have.
So we don't.
The drug itself can sometimesbe damaging to the kidneys, so
(41:10):
that's why we offer the, givethe fluids at the same time, but
we focus kind of on the shortterm and, like I said, we just
don't have the data and thestudies done to know long-term
how that affects the bird.
But we it's it's it's the rightchoice for us to do it does
(41:31):
make sense.
Yeah, it's a good thing to do so.
Yeah, so it's a five daytreatment, two days of rest and
then potential multiple roundsof that.
It depends on the lead level,Of course.
In humans, the acceptable leadlevel in the blood is zero
micrograms per deciliter.
In condors as a whole, thegroup has decided that 35
(41:53):
micrograms per deciliter or lessis acceptable to re-release
them in the wild.
So we wait until we get down tothat number.
I've seen birds come in with500 micrograms per deciliter.
Other biologists have seen themin the 700s.
The one that we most recentlyhad had a starting level of only
(42:14):
76, which is quote unquote good.
So we only had to do one roundof treatment for him and then he
got to go back to pinnacles.
So but we also know from theall the research and studies
that have been done that we getthem down and then we put them
in the wild and then they justare re-exposed to it or leeches
out from their liver or theirbones right back into their
(42:36):
bloodstream.
So, like I said, condors havethis crazy ability to live with
this lead level in their systemthat none of us would be able to
survive, and we don't know why.
we're thankful because that'stheir biggest problem.
So we do help them, but itdoesn't fix the problem because
the lead is still in theirsystem or it's still in their
(42:59):
environment so they're it's justkind of this constant
re-exposure for them wow, youknow I have to say what I'm
thinking about.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Two things, two things, okay.
One what I'm thinking aboutwhen you're saying this is that
you guys are constantly you guys, as the whole group of the
collaboration, are constantlymonitoring these birds.
You know where they are, 24-7.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Yeah, we hope to.
Sometimes they all havetrackers on them, wow.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
But yeah, and we kind of have to because there's so
few of them that they're allvaluable.
Well, it kind of reminds me ofmy collaboration with Virunga
National Park and the gorillas,the mountain gorillas.
The rangers know where they are, 24, seven, all the mountain
gorillas, you know, and thatkind of blows me away.
But it's kind of the same thing.
It's all about making surethey're healthy, they're safe,
and and you have to do that withsuch low numbers.
(43:53):
Yeah, that's just amazing to me.
Okay, and the other question,not the other thing that came up
for me, this is a bad, but Iwant to know.
So, when they're in captivityand they're carrion eaters, do
you give them fresh meat or doyou let it sit out for a while?
and then give it to them?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
That's a great question.
We do give them fresh I meanit's frozen rabbits or rats but
then they, if they don't eat it,it just sits there and gets
gross and then maybe they decideto eat it.
So you don't let it get grossand then give it to them we give
it to them when it's fresh ish,and then um, and then they
sometimes choose to not eat itand then it gets gross.
(44:32):
But it just depends on the bird.
Some birds will fit downimmediately.
Some birds don't want to eat.
The good thing with condors isthat they can go for like three
weeks without eating and be okay.
I mean, they need water, ofcourse.
So if they just don't want toeat while they're being treated,
that's, we don't worry too much.
We keep an eye on their weightsand how they're doing, but it's
not terrible if they choose notto eat while they're with us.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
So this is Oakland Zoo's way of being involved
right, because you guys havethis amazing vet and tech team,
or the veterinary technicianteam and the vets and everything
.
So I get it Okay.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeah, that's how we are involved with the Condor
Recovery Program.
It started about 10 years agothat we were able to be involved
, and that is how we areinvolved primarily is just by
treating wild birds that havelead toxicity or just that have
any medical needs for placesthat don't have their own
hospital right there and youdon't have california condors in
(45:30):
the zoo.
We do, actually, yeah when weexpanded the zoo to include
californ, we got to exhibitcondors.
Okay, got it, so they, we dohave them on in our zoo.
But yeah, then we just treatthe ones that we get from the
wild.
So we don't have a captivebreeding program Like that's
what Oregon zoo does andperegrine fund.
(45:54):
But so our contribution is tohelp with the treatment of the
birds and it's a nice, it'sbeautiful, yeah, yeah, it's
great.
And it gave the biologists incentral california a great
option, because prior to usbeing involved, they'd have to
drive all the way down to la zoo, which was quite a trek, as you
can imagine.
So it was just a closer optionfor them.
(46:16):
So it's been great.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
It's also the program's expanding yes, that's
awesome.
Yes, yes, northern Californiayes, that's great.
Yeah, it's really great becausewe need more birds out there.
Yes, thank you for thatcontinued insight.
Sure, I wanted you guys to hearthat part of the conversation
so you can hear to what extentthe recovery program goes to to
(46:38):
help save these birds.
I thought it was quitefascinating.
I saw a picture recently of aranger kneeling next to Sudan
the last male northern whiterhino, the last male of this
species.
The image struck me deeply asit symbolizes the end of an
(46:59):
iconic species.
I can't imagine us losinganother such species, even
though scientists warn us thatthe possibility is very high,
one that we might face very soon.
The story of the Californiacondor's recovery is a testament
to what we can achieve when wework together.
(47:19):
It is through thiscollaborative effort that we
have seen the California Condorspopulations increase from the
incredible low number of 27individuals in the 1980s to 561
today.
If you feel moved to pleasesupport the efforts of these
organizations, let's continue tosupport and champion these
(47:42):
collaborative conservationefforts to ensure that we do not
witness the loss of anotherirreplaceable species.
Visit the Two Chicks and a Hoewebsite for more information
with links to the organizationswe talked about today.
No-transcript.
Imagine a bird with a wingspan of 9 to 10 feet.
Think about that for a second.
That's the height of a standardbasketball hoop or a small
sailboat.
So a bird, a hardy speciesweighing up to 25 pounds, living
up to 60 plus years, is ascavenger feeding primarily on
(00:26):
carrion or dead animals, a birdspecies that survived mass
extinctions of the last ice age,yet the entire population was
reduced to 22 individuals by the1980s.
A cherished icon of the West,the prehistoric looking
California condor remains one ofthe world's most endangered
(00:48):
species.
North America's largest birdnarrowly escaped extinction in
the mid-1980s when the last 22wild California condors became
star participants in a captivebreeding program to keep them
from disappearing from the faceof the earth.
I think the thing that hasfascinated me the most about the
(01:10):
California condor and its storyhas been the amazing
collaboration amongstconservation organizations to
save this bird from extinctionZoos such as the Los Angeles Zoo
in San Diego, us Fish andWildlife, california Department
of Fish and Game and severallongstanding nonprofit
organizations.
(01:31):
They have all worked togethersince the 1980s to save this
animal from extinction.
That's pretty amazing to me.
(02:01):
Hi everyone, it's Vanessa fromTwo Chicks and a Hoe, the
podcast that brings you amazingpeople doing great things in our
world, and I'm so excited toshare with you a conversation
that I've been wanting to havefor many years with yet another
amazing person.
I'm so excited.
Today's guest is Monica Fox, whois a veterinary technician at
(02:22):
the Oakland Zoo in NorthernCalifornia, one of the zoos that
is involved in the preservationof the California condor.
Monica is also a team member ofthe California Condor Recovery
Program, so we're going to chattoday about this amazing bird.
How did it almost disappearfrom existence?
Who's involved in the effortsto help save it?
(02:44):
And you know this greatcollaboration amongst all these
organizations.
Hi, monica, thank you so muchfor being here today.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Hi Vanessa.
Thank you for having me.
I'm very excited to be here andto talk about one of my
favorite animals.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
I love it, I love it.
So I can't imagine you sayingthat, working at the Oakland Zoo
, which is such an awesome place, an awesome zoo with so many
species, and here you are sayingit's one of your most favorite
animals.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Well, oakland Zoo is how I even got to become
familiar with the condor.
I'm not from Californiaoriginally and I didn't know
that much about him.
Aren't you a cheesehead?
Yes, in Wisconsin.
Him.
Aren't you a cheese head?
Yes, in Wisconsin.
So Oakland Zoo really opened myeyes to the condor and I just
got hooked when I heard theirstory and I feel so privileged
(03:32):
and honored to be part of therecovery program for them
because they're just an amazingbird.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So awesome.
So let's talk about the bird,Okay.
So in my introduction Imentioned that they have a nine
to 10 foot wingspan.
Is that the largest?
Is that the largest?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
bird.
I believe it's the largest landbird in North America but I
think in other continentsthere's bigger birds, but the
Andean condor is not bigger, isit?
I don't think so.
I think so, I can't remember.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, that's fine, there's so many, so, but yes, so
all right.
So let's talk about the bird.
It's huge, it is huge.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Is it a vulture?
It's a vulture meaning itscavenges for its food, meaning
it eats dead things for all ofits meals, dead things to for
all of its meals.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So everybody, when they think of vultures, they
think oh gross, you know,because they stick their head
inside and you know, and theyget it all.
They get nasty.
But tell me that becausethey're not dirty birds.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
They're not.
They're very fastidious aboutcleaning themselves, and one of
their trademark features istheir bald head, and that is on
purpose, because when they dostick their head into carcasses
to get the good stuff, thentheir head doesn't get covered
with all of the intestines ofwhatever they're eating, and so
it does help them stay clean.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
So we always say bald is beautiful.
That is a great gross visual atthe same time.
But yes, I see that that makessense and I heard too that them
being bald, that after they dotheir business inside a carcass,
that the sun kind of beats itoff or burns it off, so to speak
(05:22):
.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Okay, I haven't heard that.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, that's what I heard about turkey vultures, so
I'm assuming that's across theboard for vultures as well,
since none of them really haveany feathers on their head,
right?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
yeah, yeah they also will jump into a pool of water
and just kind of cleanthemselves off too.
So yeah, they like being clean,even though they get dirty nice
, they get real dirty.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
So I heard too that, or I read.
I should say that they aresexually monomorphic Meaning.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Meaning you cannot tell the gender of the bird by
just looking at them.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Isn't that kind of, I guess, isn't that most for a
lot of birds, isn't it?
I was just thinking when I saidthat, think ostriches, you
could see the differences but Ithink about eclectus parrots.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
They're sexually dimorphic, so I think it just
varies among species okay.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So, particularly though in the california condor,
it's hard to tell thedifference, yes, between the
males and the females yes, got,got it.
All right.
So what is what theirhistorical range?
So now we're talking.
You know we're very focused inhere on California and their
current range.
But what was their historicalrange at one point?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Their historical range was from California to
Florida, western Canada and.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Northern Mexico.
Wow Okay, so we've losteverything, I guess, going
towards the East Coast.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yes, yes Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Okay, all right.
So the other great visual thatyou see on them now is this I
think it's a red tag, isn't it?
It's a wing tag, and it variesin color.
Oh, okay.
But yeah some of them are red.
Okay, yeah, and that's the tag.
That's their number, tag, right, it's their identifier.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Identifier.
Yeah, most condors also havemicrochips in them.
So when they're in hand theycan be scanned the microchips in
them.
So when they're in hand theycan be scanned.
The microchip can be scanned.
But the wing tags are a visualeasy to spot from the ground
identifier and each flockthroughout California they have
(07:38):
different kind of ways of usingthe wing tag.
So the central flock uses colorcoding of the wing tags that
pairs also with the numbers onthe wing tag.
So one the central flock usescolor coding of the wing tags
that pairs also with the numberson the wing tag.
But up at the Yurok tribe flockin Northern California they
have one color but differentnumbers on the wing tag.
(07:59):
So they all have wing tags butthey each site does it a little
bit differently.
Okay, how they distinguish whatthe tag actually means, Okay.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
But they all have tags.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
They all have tags and that equates to their stud
book number.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Okay, wait a minute, we'll back up here.
Stud book number.
Tell us what the stud book is.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So the stud book is yes?
we finally get to talk about thestud book, the species survival
plan, and there's a lot ofspecies involved in it and a lot
of species that are at zoosinvolved in it, excuse me and
they all get assigned a numberand that's just a way to help us
keep track.
It also helps with us knowing,for breeding purposes, who
(08:43):
should go with who, helps withus knowing for breeding purposes
who should go with who.
It's just an easy way to keeptrack of all of the individuals,
but then also an easy way toidentify them among the multiple
organizations that work withcondors.
We just call them by their studbook numbers and some
organizations will name thebirds, some don't, so the stud
book number is a consistent wayto identify the birds.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
I always called it the like tinder of the animal
world, the stud book, you know.
So, yes, this is my number.
So cool, Thank you, Awesome.
So the numbers, let's talkabout the.
I mean I, you know, nowhere inmy research for this
conversation actually did I findthat this was, you know, at one
(09:27):
point, a bird that had millions, that kind of thing.
I never actually saw any truenumbers or figures associated
with that.
Of course, I saw a lot ofnumbers associated with what
happened in the 80s, so let'stalk about that.
Monica, what did we get to here?
You know?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, well, the numbers were hard to track.
I think there was a lot of them, so it was hard to count them
all.
But also because they have suchwide ranges where they fly it
was hard to track them all downand really at that point there
wasn't a need to count them andto see how many there were,
(10:06):
point.
There wasn't a need to countthem right and to see how many
there were there were, they said.
One thing that I read was thatit wasn't possible to track
their population until the 80sum, and that was done by a newly
developed photographic method,um, which just essentially was a
way that they photographed thearea and then counted the birds
and moved to another area,counted the birds, and so
(10:28):
tracking wasn't done, and but italso wasn't necessary.
So I agree, we don't havenumbers to know how many there
were, way back in the day notuntil the eighties and people
started to notice that thepopulation had diminished, that
they started to track thepopulation.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So the California condor was the first species to
be listed under the EndangeredSpecies Act in 1967.
The very first, so the iconicspecies for that, unfortunately.
Yes, very first.
So the iconic species for that,unfortunately, but we came down
to, came down to 22 birds,didn't it?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yes, in 1982, there was only 22 remaining.
So they knew at that pointsomething had to be done,
otherwise they would alldisappear.
So yeah, it was down to 22.
What?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
happened.
What did they do?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So over the next five years from that point, they
trapped them all to All of them.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah, all of them.
To get them into captivity, tostart a captive breeding program
, because they knew if theydidn't do that, the species
would go extinct.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
So I get it.
So the idea that to take all ofthem from the wild, yeah, and
again, it's to protect them andto see if they could do some
breeding in in, in captivity, tosee if they could then build
this population right.
So what so?
The more I read to the, itseems to me like the, the, the
(12:02):
foundation for their demise, hasbeen lead poisoning correct?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
yeah, and again, that wasn't scientific data at that
point, and right there were.
I think there were multiplereasons, but the assumption is
that lead was the number onekiller of the condors and,
honestly, that's still thenumber one killer of condors,
and I think, as they learned,that lead was the problem,
(12:28):
that's what made them think inhindsight about that was the
problem back then too.
So they just noticed that it wasa problem, so they presumed
that that was the problem fromback in the day, when they had
no idea why they were dying off.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
So why lead?
So what does lead do and wheredoes it come from?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Well, the primary reason that they get exposed to
lead is because they'rescavengers, as we discussed,
meaning they eat dead things,and so it could be.
They eat a squirrel thatsomebody shot with a lead bullet
and left there, and then sothey eat the squirrel which has
(13:09):
the lead, and it takes a tiny,tiny fragment of lead to poison
a bird, and so that could itcould be as simple as somebody
just shooting a dead squirreland leaving it there, and then
the bird comes and eats thatthere, and then the bird comes
and eats that.
(13:29):
It could be, uh, somebodyshooting a deer and pulling, you
know, gutting it in the fieldand leaving the guts and taking
the deer, but then the condorswill come eat the gut pile again
getting exposed to lead, and itjust takes a little bit is what
you're saying I meanmillimeters big really.
I've seen that we've pulled themout of condors and I've
measured them and sent them offto researchers and it's a
shockingly small fragment thatcauses a big problem for them
(13:52):
and then it gets in theirbloodstream and then it gets
into their organs and theirbones and then we could get it
we can with the treatment we do.
We can get it out of theirbloodstream but then re is still
in their bones and their organs.
So it's kind of a constantproblem and the birds have
somehow managed to live with ashockingly high level of lead in
(14:13):
their blood stream.
Cause what does it do to them?
It causes a lot of differentproblems, but we often see
neurologic problems where theyjust seem kind of loopy and
unsteady.
It causes anorexia, where theydon't want to eat.
It causes problems with theirdigestive tract and eventually
(14:34):
it just will affect so manyorgans that it just kills them.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Okay, so clearly quite a problem, very big
problem with condors.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yes, so clearly quite a problem, very big problem,
with condors.
Yes, so are they still usinglead ammunition?
And I ask that because in myreading I read that they had
(15:11):
passed several bills inCalifornia, or were working on
it at a certain point, to getrid of or to outlaw the use of
lead ammunition in certainhunting areas, which I didn't
think was broad enough, but okay.
And then years later they addedthat to basically say no more
lead ammunition.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yes, that's correct.
I can't remember it was fairlyrecent that that happened.
I can't remember it was fairlyrecent that that happened.
I can't remember the exact year, but yeah, it started out with
certain areas and then it becamethe whole state of California.
And one message I do want toget across is that the Condor
Recovery Program and all themembers, we are not anti-hunting
.
We support hunters and ranchers.
(15:43):
We want to find a way to workwith them to save this species
and that's why some of theinstitutions and organizations
involved in the Condor RecoveryProgram they put a lot of time
and effort and resources intonon-led outreach for the public.
And they provide copper bulletsto ranchers and people that want
(16:07):
them, just as a way to worktogether, because we don't want
to take away the hunting for thepeople that love to do it right
.
Um, but it is a problem for allanimals.
It's not just condors.
It just there are certainthings about condors that they
just it affects their populationmore significantly, but it, you
know, affects bald eagles andgolden eagles and turkey
(16:29):
vultures.
So it's just so.
If we can help with thatproblem, it will help many
species.
But since the californiacondors are so affected by it
and there's so few of them,right, their numbers are so low
yeah, we really want to get theeffort, put the effort in to try
to save them.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
I love it.
I love it again.
That's a different type ofcollaboration amongst you know,
not outside, outside of thecalifornia kind of program and
all these wonderfulorganizations which we'll talk
about in a sec, but, um, I lovethe idea of working with hunters
you know, it's that is trueconservation in my book.
the idea of everybody is aplayer in it.
It's that is true conservationin my book the idea of everybody
(17:05):
is a player in it.
Let's work all together,because conservation is not just
about the bird.
It's about the bird and theenvironment and the people and
everybody that's affected by ithas to make the pie complete.
So, yes, great, awesome.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
As of 2022, we have 561 total condors 347 are in the
wild and 214 are in captivity.
So that's it's, overall, stilla shockingly low number if you
think about it.
If there was only 561 peopleleft on the planet, yes, but
(17:42):
considering where it started,it's significant and it's going
in the right direction for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Okay, so that's, that is, from 22 birds right In the
80s, correct?
Yes, all the way up to 561.
Wow, wow, that is, that's anamazing, that's amazing success.
I know that they're not out ofthe woods, so to speak, and I'm
sure they're still listed as anendangered species as well, but
(18:10):
that is big success.
So tell me then, how did so?
They brought all these birds in, think Los Angeles Zoo, san
Diego Zoo, were big players inthe process, two of the first
zoos right in SouthernCalifornia to be involved and
(18:34):
they took eggs.
Did they take eggs from thewild or at that point, where the
birds already the birds werealready in.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
The birds were in captivity, and so any eggs at
that point were laid incaptivity.
Got it, got it.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
So then, all those animals stayed in captivity and
tried to build up thispopulation again.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Got it?
Yes, yes, it wasn't.
Until what year was it?
In 1992, they reintroducedcaptive, bred condors into the
wild.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
All right, so go back a few years, so in 82.
They took the last 22 in.
So I'm trying to get the.
I want the listeners tounderstand this timeline Right,
because this isn't.
I mean, it sounds like a longtime ago but it's not.
It's not like high school years, but in 82, the last 22 animals
(19:27):
came in from the wild.
They were captured and broughtin and that was to save them
from extinction.
Five years later all theremaining wild condors were in
captivity.
That was in April of 1987.
The last wild condor wascaptured and brought in.
So then nobody was out in thewild anymore.
They were at these twofacilities in Southern
(19:48):
California Los Angeles Zoo andSan Diego Zoo and it started
from there.
And I know you and I hadmentioned the California Condor
Program, recovery program, whichstarted in the late 70s and I
know that you are a member, ateam member of it, as well as
the Oakland Zoo, and thisprogram is put together, isn't
(20:08):
it just?
It's an international multieffort to save this bird from
total extinction.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, it's pretty amazing to see all of the
organizations and institutionswork together for this.
I remember every year there's acondor field meeting, which is
a meeting where all the fieldbiologists and researchers and
everybody involved comestogether and talks about latest
research and populations andgoals and all of that.
(20:39):
And I went to my first one in2014 at the Santa Barbara Zoo
and I just remember beingshocked at the amount of people
just in one room together allwith the same goal, and it was
so inspiring to me and it justblew my mind and it really gave
me a really good impact abouthow much people care about this
(21:03):
species.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
That's, I think, monica, we go back to.
One of my original statementswas the idea that all these
organizations have come togetherto save this bird, and it's
just kind of mind-blowing to me,even back whenever, the 70s,
the 80s, to today, that this isstill happening, that it just
(21:27):
gives me such hope, such hopenot just for this particular
species, but for lots of stuff.
I want to.
I think it's important.
I want to say the names of theorganizations because I want our
listeners to understand thedepth of who's involved here.
So we have the Peregrine Fund,the Ventana Wildlife Society,
(21:48):
the National Park Service, theSan Diego Zoo, the Los Angeles
Zoo, oregon Zoo, santa BarbaraZoo, oakland Zoo, chapultepec
Zoo in Mexico, arizona Game andFish Department, the California
Department of Fish and Wildlife,the Utah Division of Wildlife
Resources, the Bureau of LandManagement, us Forest Service,
the Federal Government of Mexico, the Yurok Tribe and many other
(22:13):
NGOs that we could just keeptalking, which is a really good
sign that look, all thesewonderful organizations and all
the passion behind this to savethis bird.
That's really fantastic.
And and as Monica and I weretalking as well, you know, about
stud books and stuff like that,I, I, I want listeners to
understand.
I know, Monica and I feel verypassionate about this that you
(22:35):
can see here how many zoos did Ilist off?
Zoos sometimes get really get abad rap.
But I think what people don'tunderstand and what they're not
seeing when they walk throughthe gates is the tremendous
amount of conservation workthat's being done behind the
scenes.
And that's why I feel it's soimportant to get this message
out, because if it wasn't forthe zoos, this bird wouldn't be
(23:00):
around anymore.
And maybe that's a very broadstatement on my part, because I
know there's all these othergreat organizations, but it
really was those two zoos thatstarted that, you know, getting
them in and taking care of them.
So, yeah, my hat's off.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
That's great, and I think zoos nowadays we don't
just have animals for people tocome look at.
We have that because that's whatinspires future animal lovers
and the people that will takecare of the species.
But zoos do conservation workand we at Oakland zoo do a lot
of it, and that's one thing thatI love about Oakland Zoo.
(23:36):
It makes me so proud to workthere, and the California
condors are not the only localspecies that we work to save, so
it's a big part of what we do,but it's not the only one.
So I'm thankful to work at aplace like that and it makes me
proud and it is.
I mean, I think that the effortthat I see with this particular
species is it gives me chillsevery time I think about it,
(23:59):
because I just love it and Ijust love the species and I
think all of these peopleworking together is amazing.
And you know, back when theyhad to pull the last 22 birds
and that wasn't an easy decisionand some people were against it
back then and I can't help butunderstand why.
There's two sides to everystory and taking an animal out
(24:20):
of its wild habitat to start docaptive breeding Some people
thought, well, maybe it's justtime for them to go.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And you know, I was going to ask you about that too,
the whole idea of, of thistremendous effort, and I can't
imagine the funds that have gonetowards this.
And you're right, I'm sure somepeople would say, well, why not
?
You know, put it towards.
You know a species that hasmore population, you know that
kind of thing.
It's equally not equally, butendangered, but has more for
(24:50):
genetic purposes.
You know, I think about that,but then I think how can we let
this animal disappear as well?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, it's a beautiful bird and it's it's so
hard because, as animal lovers,every animal is important it
doesn't matter if it's a littlecentipede or it's a big elephant
, we they're all important.
So it is hard to kind of say,okay, this one gets this many
resources right doesn't, andsome people don't see the beauty
(25:19):
of condors, and that's okay,they don't have to.
But there is a very large groupof people and a large group of
organizations and institutionsthat do see the condors are
worth fighting for and bringingthem back to have stable
populations.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Serves really as a true iconic species of
conservation, kind of like whatthe bald eagle was, and look
where that came, look where thatwent, how awesome.
That's such an awesome successstory.
Yes, definitely, bald isbeautiful Bald is beautiful.
Woo-hoo, Okay, so you mentionedthat reintroduction of the
species started in 1992.
(25:55):
Yes, Okay.
So now are they still hatchingeggs in captivity and then
releasing these I guessjuveniles or adult birds into
the?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
wild?
Yes, they are, and with all thepopulation studies that go on
with condors, it's known that ifwe were to stop the captive
breeding, the population wouldjust decline again.
So there, although a lot ofbirds are being the eggs are
being laid and birds are beinghatched in the wild, which is
(26:28):
exactly what we want because ofthe threats to the birds in the
wild.
If the constant influx that isbeing done with the captive bred
birds going into the wild iswhat is sustaining the
population, so if we stopped thecaptive breeding and stopped
releasing captive bred birdsinto the wild, the population
would just go back down.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
And and that's because of the the threats that
brought them to that point arestill there.
But then actually there's morenow isn't there.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
There's always been several, and I know we talked
about lead, which is the biggest, so wait a minute though Lead
ammunition has now been outlawedRight, but people still have.
You know, down in the garagethey have ammo from 10 years ago
and, to be honest, the copperammunition that is what is hoped
to be the alternative isexpensive and it's harder to get
(27:23):
and then, when COVID hit, itwas even harder to get.
So there's a lot of obstaclesfor people to buy the copper or
to get the copper bullets that'sout of their control.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
So I'm assuming too that you can order lead
ammunition from another state.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I don't remember that .
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I feel like there's some rules about it, but I don't
know I'm not into that either,but I understand that lead is
still an issue then, oh, it'sthe biggest issue, but there's
other issues.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
I mean they we have people accidentally shoot them
or they get electrocuted frompower lines.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
They drown, they so there's micro trash is the new
one, I guess.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, it's not too new, but it's definitely a
problem.
Um, condors are relentlesslycurious and they um like to pick
at everything with their beaksand they also um will ingest it
and then they feed it to theirchicks and then it causes, you
know, intestinal blockages andcauses them to get sick.
(28:25):
So micro trash is definitely aproblem, especially for birds
that live in areas that peopleare around, because people throw
their trash and then they takeit up to their nest and then it
feeds they feed it to theirchicks well, we're expanding out
too, aren't we?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
into the areas where these birds live now, I mean
hiking and recreationalactivities.
Right got it.
And with the population ofhumans, we're spreading further
and further yes, got it got itall right.
So there is.
There is animals out in thewild and animals in captivity.
I got it, so this is acombination of success, so to
(29:02):
speak.
Yes, you have to have both inorder for success.
But you mentioned too thatbabies, hatchlings chicks, are
being born in the wild.
Yes, that's awesome.
It's so exciting.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
The first one was in 2004.
It was a big milestone thefirst successful chick hatched
in the wild, which was in 2004.
It was a big milestone, thefirst successful chick hatched
in the wild, which was justincredible.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Just incredible.
So, and it's great, we weretalking about the wing tags
earlier and you're right thatall condors have wing tags, but
when they're hatched in the wild.
They obviously aren't born withthe wing tags, so they don't
get a tag until they are able tobe trapped and checked by the
biologists.
So when you get to see a condorout in the wild without a wing
(29:45):
tag, it's just amazing.
It's my screen, my phone screenpicture is an untagged juvenile
wing condor.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Have you seen them, Monica?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, I've seen them, yeah so this particular one I
saw was at Pinnacles.
This was several years ago, butyeah, I was at Pinnacles
National Park and I got to seeone.
And you know, the juvenileslook different than adults, so
they're easy to tell thedifference physically.
But then also the lack of awing tag that means they haven't
been touched by humans yet.
(30:15):
And that's what we want.
Haven't been touched by humansyet.
And that's what we want, and Iguess at some point we will stop
tracking individuals, but it'swe're not there yet.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Got it.
I too have seen them, so I Isaw them at Big Sur, which is
part of the Pinnacles, I thinkright.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
It's part of Ventana, so Pinnacles and Ventana work
very close together becausegeographically they're pretty
close together.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
So in fact I wanted to tell the listeners if you
want to see condors flying inthe wild, there's actually, if
you're in the California area,you can see them, you can.
There's the Ventana Wildernessand Big Sur of course, part of
that, the Pinnacles NationalMonument Park, where Monica just
mentioned.
There's and I'm not sure if I'msaying this correctly Cespe
(31:02):
Condor Sanctuary in the LosPadres National Forest, the
Sierra San Pedro MartirMountains of Northern Baja
California, mexico.
So they're also now I knowthey're doing reintroduction
back into the Mexico area andthen the Vermilion Cliffs
National Monument in Arizona.
So that's amazing, yeah, so Imean.
So there's lots ofopportunities there to see like
(31:25):
I have seen them in Big Sur.
I actually didn't see themflying.
They were at the area, thevisitor center, sitting on poles
and you know, as you canimagine, the jaw dropping.
It stopped, everybody stopped.
Car stopped, everybody stopped,which was great because it was
quite a sight to see, but, yes,pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, I've gotten pretty lucky.
I do see them often when I go.
I go to Big Sur a lot and I doget to see them often.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
And they're just amazing to watch.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Their wingspan is huge and they just soar and you
know, like I said before,they're really curious and so
they'll come down to where carsare and they'll just be there,
even though we want them awayfrom people.
Yes, yes, um, it does give youa chance to see them up close
and it's just beautiful andthey're a sight to be seen and,
(32:15):
yeah, they're really.
It's really special when youget to see them in the wild,
just because there's not thatmany of them.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
So it's, it's a treat for sure, I think you just said
it that opportunity to see themin the wild it was for me and
really, you know, just stoppedyou in your tracks.
This is, this is such a bigbird.
Your tracks this is this issuch a big bird and it's such an
(32:43):
amazing animal that I, I, Ihope people want to see them,
because it inspires that, thatlet's make sure we save them,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Yeah, I think that their whole story is inspiring
and they're very resilient birdsand they just have hung on and
we're helping them as much as wecan and I think that they'll
pull through, I think, with allthe efforts that are happening,
if those continue.
And yeah, but they're majesticand they're beautiful and I have
(33:11):
a big soft spot for them,that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
And it sounds to me like you have hope as well.
I do.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
I have hope because I see all the people working so
hard for them.
That's for sure, and it soundsto me like you have hope as well
.
I do.
I have hope because I see allthe people working so hard for
this.
It's inspiring to me.
Every year I go to the fieldmeeting and I get to see all
these people and I'm a tiny,tiny, tiny part of it.
But it makes me so proud to bea part of it because the people
the other rest of the people arejust incredible and we, in a
(33:38):
way, I feel we're kind of onebig family fighting the good
fight and, yeah, and we're doingit for this bird that we all
love.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Awesome.
Yeah, thank you, you're welcome.
Thank you so much, hey.
So, listeners, as usual, I'mgoing to have on our website
some links for you to go to ifyou're interested in finding out
more information.
You know, I think US Fish andWildlife, california Department
of Fish and Wildlife, has somegreat information up there.
I'm going to list, of course,our zoos, the ones that are near
(34:11):
and dear to our hearts, becauseit's great.
The collaboration is great,they're doing amazing things
together and I think this servesas a great model for so many
things that we could all dotogether.
So check out the website.
Anything to add, monica, aboutthis incredible bird and the
(34:33):
program.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Just go out and try to find them.
If you can go to Pinnacles orgo to Grand Canyon or go.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Oh, the Grand Canyon.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yeah, and then there's a new flock up in
Northern California north ofEureka.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
There's definitely a smaller one Is that with the
Yurok tribe.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, that's with the Yurok tribe, yep.
So it's a smaller populationbut is growing.
So hopefully those will bevisible to people up there and
that was an important onebecause of the historical
connection with the NativeAmericans.
So that was really moving forus to get birds back up in that
area too.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
So yeah, this is a very symbolic bird for many
Native folks, isn't it?
Yes?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
it is Very much so Thunderbird?
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Did I hear Thunderbird or Powerbird is the
name that they've given the bird?
I haven't heard that.
Yeah, because of theirconnection to it.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
It doesn't surprise me.
Yeah, go out and find somecondors and I hope you get
inspired by their story, like Iwas.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Like I am, yeah, like I am very much.
So.
Thank you so much, monica, foryour time, your passion and
everything that you give to ourworld.
Thank, you.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Thank you, Vanessa Thanks.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
All right, all right, listeners, take care of each
other.
We'll talk to you soon.
Monica and I continued ourconversation and she explained a
little bit more detail aboutthe lead poisoning, and I wanted
you guys to hear this.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah, it was more so about the lead treatment that
happens with a bird when theyhave lead poisoning.
So a fact that I found was from1992 to 2023, there have been
126 documented deaths from leadpoisoning in the free-flying
population.
So, as we've said, it's thenumber one threat to condors.
(36:27):
That's over 20% of thepopulation.
Yeah, it's a big deal.
So how the birds are actuallytreated is?
It all starts in the field withthe biologist at the different
flock sites, and the biologistwill handle and trap their birds
on a regular basis to replacewing tags or different monitors,
(36:50):
and they'll often take bloodand for different research
studies, but then also to justcheck the lead levels of the
bird because we know it's such aknown problem.
It's a routine part of when abird gets handled.
They get their blood tested,excuse me.
So also if birds are showingwhat we call clinical signs of
(37:12):
lead toxicity, like I said, kindof acting off or not eating or
just down in the dumps, they'llalso check the lead levels from
the blood at that time.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
So biologists see that in the wild and they
recognize that something mightbe wrong.
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
The bird is then captured, yes, and then brought
in and sometimes the birds arecaptured and they look normal,
but then on the blood results wefind out that they do have high
lead.
So, condors have this shockingability to live normally with a
very high blood lead level,which is unheard of, and we
(37:49):
don't know why condors can dothat, but they can, and so
oftentimes we don't see themacting sick in the wild, but
when they do, that's a definitething that the biologists notice
.
But, like I said, the biologistswill also handle normal looking
birds but check their blood aswell.
So at this point they're out inthe wild still, but in one of
(38:12):
their catch pens being handledby biologists.
So then if they determine thatthat condor has high lead levels
, they'll crate the bird andtake it to a couple different
options.
But Oakland Zoo is one of theoptions.
So we primarily get birds fromthe Central California flock,
(38:32):
which is Pinnacles and Ventana,and with the addition of the
Yurok site in NorthernCalifornia we've also helped
with the medical care of thebirds from that flock.
So for lead treatment the birdswill come to Oakland Zoo.
We have a pen just for them andthat's on zoo grounds but not
by the public area, and a littlebit in a quieter area for them.
(38:56):
And we do additional exams thatconsist of checking for lead
fragments with x-rays, becauseit's metal.
So we'll see it on x-ray andthat's how we know if a bird has
a lead fragment in it.
Well, of course, we don't knowthat it's lead, but we presume
that it's lead.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Lead fragment from ingestion.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Okay, not from like bullet scatter or whatever.
Correct, I'm not saying theright terminology.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
It's usually ingestion.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
It's usually in their GI tract, so yeah, from eating
something that had lead bullets.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
So the if the hope is that there's no fragment, of
course, because if there is afragment, then we have kind of
we modify, well, we add on apart of a treatment to try to
get them to regurgitate ordefecate out that lead fragment.
But if they don't have a leadfragment then we don't have to
(39:48):
add that part on.
But regardless of a fragment orno fragment in the bird we do
chelation treatment, andchelation means it's a drug that
draws a substance out from theblood and then they excrete it
in their urine.
Got it.
So the chelation agent that weuse is calcium EDTA, and it's an
injection that they get once aday for five days and then along
(40:12):
with that we give them sub-Qfluids to help just support
their body during this treatment.
So we do that once a day forfive days.
On day five we take blood againto check their levels.
We usually have to wait acouple days for those results to
come in and then if the leadlevel is not down to an
(40:34):
acceptable level, then werestart treatment after two days
of rest.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
And the bird.
It doesn't hurt the bird or no,it's not something, okay, yeah.
There's no long-term effectsfor this.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
We don't know Besides getting obviously rid of the
bird.
Yeah, you know, we don't knowbecause we don't have studies
and data to show of a60-year-old bird that has gotten
calcium EDTA.
But that's the best treatmentwe have right now with the
knowledge that we have.
So we don't.
The drug itself can sometimesbe damaging to the kidneys, so
(41:10):
that's why we offer the, givethe fluids at the same time, but
we focus kind of on the shortterm and, like I said, we just
don't have the data and thestudies done to know long-term
how that affects the bird.
But we it's it's it's the rightchoice for us to do it does
(41:31):
make sense.
Yeah, it's a good thing to do so.
Yeah, so it's a five daytreatment, two days of rest and
then potential multiple roundsof that.
It depends on the lead level,Of course.
In humans, the acceptable leadlevel in the blood is zero
micrograms per deciliter.
In condors as a whole, thegroup has decided that 35
(41:53):
micrograms per deciliter or lessis acceptable to re-release
them in the wild.
So we wait until we get down tothat number.
I've seen birds come in with500 micrograms per deciliter.
Other biologists have seen themin the 700s.
The one that we most recentlyhad had a starting level of only
(42:14):
76, which is quote unquote good.
So we only had to do one roundof treatment for him and then he
got to go back to pinnacles.
So but we also know from theall the research and studies
that have been done that we getthem down and then we put them
in the wild and then they justare re-exposed to it or leeches
out from their liver or theirbones right back into their
(42:36):
bloodstream.
So, like I said, condors havethis crazy ability to live with
this lead level in their systemthat none of us would be able to
survive, and we don't know why.
we're thankful because that'stheir biggest problem.
So we do help them, but itdoesn't fix the problem because
the lead is still in theirsystem or it's still in their
(42:59):
environment so they're it's justkind of this constant
re-exposure for them wow, youknow I have to say what I'm
thinking about.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Two things, two things, okay.
One what I'm thinking aboutwhen you're saying this is that
you guys are constantly you guys, as the whole group of the
collaboration, are constantlymonitoring these birds.
You know where they are, 24-7.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Yeah, we hope to.
Sometimes they all havetrackers on them, wow.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
But yeah, and we kind of have to because there's so
few of them that they're allvaluable.
Well, it kind of reminds me ofmy collaboration with Virunga
National Park and the gorillas,the mountain gorillas.
The rangers know where they are, 24, seven, all the mountain
gorillas, you know, and thatkind of blows me away.
But it's kind of the same thing.
It's all about making surethey're healthy, they're safe,
and and you have to do that withsuch low numbers.
(43:53):
Yeah, that's just amazing to me.
Okay, and the other question,not the other thing that came up
for me, this is a bad, but Iwant to know.
So, when they're in captivityand they're carrion eaters, do
you give them fresh meat or doyou let it sit out for a while?
and then give it to them?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
That's a great question.
We do give them fresh I meanit's frozen rabbits or rats but
then they, if they don't eat it,it just sits there and gets
gross and then maybe they decideto eat it.
So you don't let it get grossand then give it to them we give
it to them when it's fresh ish,and then um, and then they
sometimes choose to not eat itand then it gets gross.
(44:32):
But it just depends on the bird.
Some birds will fit downimmediately.
Some birds don't want to eat.
The good thing with condors isthat they can go for like three
weeks without eating and be okay.
I mean, they need water, ofcourse.
So if they just don't want toeat while they're being treated,
that's, we don't worry too much.
We keep an eye on their weightsand how they're doing, but it's
not terrible if they choose notto eat while they're with us.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
So this is Oakland Zoo's way of being involved
right, because you guys havethis amazing vet and tech team,
or the veterinary technicianteam and the vets and everything
.
So I get it Okay.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeah, that's how we are involved with the Condor
Recovery Program.
It started about 10 years agothat we were able to be involved
, and that is how we areinvolved primarily is just by
treating wild birds that havelead toxicity or just that have
any medical needs for placesthat don't have their own
hospital right there and youdon't have california condors in
(45:30):
the zoo.
We do, actually, yeah when weexpanded the zoo to include
californ, we got to exhibitcondors.
Okay, got it, so they, we dohave them on in our zoo.
But yeah, then we just treatthe ones that we get from the
wild.
So we don't have a captivebreeding program Like that's
what Oregon zoo does andperegrine fund.
(45:54):
But so our contribution is tohelp with the treatment of the
birds and it's a nice, it'sbeautiful, yeah, yeah, it's
great.
And it gave the biologists incentral california a great
option, because prior to usbeing involved, they'd have to
drive all the way down to la zoo, which was quite a trek, as you
can imagine.
So it was just a closer optionfor them.
(46:16):
So it's been great.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
It's also the program's expanding yes, that's
awesome.
Yes, yes, northern Californiayes, that's great.
Yeah, it's really great becausewe need more birds out there.
Yes, thank you for thatcontinued insight.
Sure, I wanted you guys to hearthat part of the conversation
so you can hear to what extentthe recovery program goes to to
(46:38):
help save these birds.
I thought it was quitefascinating.
I saw a picture recently of aranger kneeling next to Sudan
the last male northern whiterhino, the last male of this
species.
The image struck me deeply asit symbolizes the end of an
(46:59):
iconic species.
I can't imagine us losinganother such species, even
though scientists warn us thatthe possibility is very high,
one that we might face very soon.
The story of the Californiacondor's recovery is a testament
to what we can achieve when wework together.
(47:19):
It is through thiscollaborative effort that we
have seen the California Condorspopulations increase from the
incredible low number of 27individuals in the 1980s to 561
today.
If you feel moved to pleasesupport the efforts of these
organizations, let's continue tosupport and champion these
(47:42):
collaborative conservationefforts to ensure that we do not
witness the loss of anotherirreplaceable species.
Visit the Two Chicks and a Hoewebsite for more information
with links to the organizationswe talked about today.
No-transcript.
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