April 13, 2024 • 42 mins
Unlock the secrets of the land with wildlife biologist Dana Page, as she guides us through the rejuvenating embrace of 'good fire' in forest management. Step inside the world of prescribed burns, where each flame is a careful calculation for conservation. Together, we'll dismantle the fears surrounding controlled burns and marvel at the intricate dance of destruction and regeneration, orchestrated to protect our natural landscapes.
From the ancient echoes of cultural fire management to the modern halls of policymaking, Dana Page weaves a tale of how indigenous wisdom is rekindling its rightful place in ecosystem balance. We traverse the complex path of integrating this ancestral knowledge into current conservation strategies, navigating the constraints of modern bureaucracy. Through the smoke, we glimpse the revitalizing power of fire, as it clears invasive species, nurtures biodiversity, and safeguards the future of our forests.
The episode culminates in a deep exploration of the practicalities of fire in conservation, from strategic firefighting techniques to their ecological consequences. Dana explains the art of using firelines and backburning to create natural barriers, ensuring the safety of both flora and fauna. The dance of fire in our ecosystems is a delicate balance, one that we are learning to master with the guidance of those who have listened to its crackling song for millennia. Join us as we fan the flames of this vital conversation.
Tribal and Indigenous Fire Tradition
Interview with Dana Page
Things that make you say "Wow"!
For more episodes and additional information visit the Two Chicks and a Hoe website and our Facebook page.
Big thanks to our Producer, Casey Kennedy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
In today's conversation, we're going to dig
deeper into the complex role offire in our forests,
acknowledging its sacredness andancestral connections.
Fire holds deep significance inmany cultures, symbolizing both
destruction and renewal, andlife and death, and renewal and
(00:28):
life and death.
We'll explore how ancientwisdom intersects with modern
science as we discuss thepractice of prescribed fires, or
also called controlled burns, amethod rooted in traditional
knowledge and adapted forcontemporary forest management.
There is a delicate balance ofharnessing the power of fire to
protect our lands, and we'regoing to explore the benefits of
(00:49):
good fire that was a term thatI learned in this conversation
and we're going to see itsimportance in shaping and
protecting the ecosystems.
(01:19):
Hi everybody, we are with DanaPage again, who is a San
Francisco Bay Area wildlifebiologist, and today we're
talking about a subject that Iactually really didn't know much
about.
It was Dana's suggestion, but Ithought, oh, let's check this
out.
Prescribed fires, or they'realso called controlled burns,
and I know that fire might be asensitive topic, particularly in
(01:43):
California, with several yearsof tremendous fire seasons.
Dana's going to help us weedthrough the good, the bad and
the ugly if there is any uglyabout controlled burns.
Welcome, Dana.
Thanks for joining us againtoday.
Thank you, Vanessa.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Pleasure to be here and talk about a very timely
topic.
And talk about a very timelytopic.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Excellent, excellent.
So I think I know what acontrolled burn is, but the more
I read about the topic inpreparation for our conversation
, the more I learned that it'snot necessarily a negative
practice.
You know, fire, fire.
You know everybody thinks aboutfire, which I and I think,
because a lot of people thinkthat we're setting the forest on
(02:25):
fire or some natural habitat,and that sounds kind of scary.
So, dana, let's start with, Ithink, the big question what is
a prescribed fire or acontrolled burn?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, you can.
You can call it eithercontrolled burn, prescribed um,
but they are fire that are it'sfire that is planned okay.
So, specifically here in thesan francisco bay, land
management agencies has haverealized that fire is crucial
(03:00):
and good fire is crucial.
So a lot of people are tryingto put good fire in front of the
name fire, because they'rechanging yeah, not just to
change that perception.
And not all fire is bad, got it,they're obviously.
Recently here in the bay areawith the lightning storms we had
some catastrophic fires thatburned down people's homes and
(03:25):
were very devastating.
So instead of interpreting fireas being bad and catastrophic,
there are also good fires.
So a controlled fire,prescribed fire, is a fire
that's planned, planned withland management agencies, with
fire agencies, various fireagencies.
You could have county fire,city fires, cal Fire, but Cal
(03:48):
Fire is kind of the big playerand more of the larger landscape
here in California.
But you have federal agenciesthat also do fire.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
guys do all this together.
Generally it is somethingthat's done together.
So we, most land agencies,would not have a fire or don't
have the equipment, so it'shaving the crews there.
You need bodies that arepatrolling the perimeter, people
that are starting the fire.
There's a whole chain ofcommand that happens and you
(04:20):
need multiple engines andeverything is designed and set
up to be successful and safe andsafe exactly so.
The, the temperature variations,the weather, all of this is
considered in the locationbefore a fire takes place, a
(04:40):
prescribed fire, and so they areevents that are planned and
controlled.
They have a prescription.
That's why you might hearprescribed.
So there might be someobjectives in this prescribed
fire, such as burning non-nativeplants, shrubs.
So that's why you might hear,you know a fire prescription,
(05:03):
which also relates to theweather.
So you have to be within aprescription of if it's too hot,
we're not going to burn.
If the humidity is too low,there will be no burning.
If the wind gets above acertain temperature, there will
also be no burning.
So fire science is used, a lotof experts and time goes into
(05:23):
planning these events.
A lot of experts and time goesinto planning these events, and
sometimes you plan them.
And then the day comes and theday is not right, so it could be
too hot, it could be too windy.
Sometimes you have to cancel.
So also, things are notflammable all times of the year.
Right after it rains, when it'swet, you're not going to get
(05:43):
green grass to burn.
So, really, timing your eventfor what your objective is.
But they are.
They're controlled and wellthought out, and until I was
actively on one of these myself,it scared me also.
But once I startedparticipating and seeing the
thought that goes into it andthe methodical planning in how
(06:09):
everything is designed, youactually don't even have to put
the fire out.
The fire puts itself out the waythat it's designed Really, and
so you're using wind directionwith that.
So if the wind's coming acertain direction, there's
backing fires that go into thewind that are nice and slow.
So it's described a lot oftimes as a catcher's mitt, right
(06:32):
, and so think about a catcher'smitt.
One side of where you're tryingto burn is the mitt where the
fire's going to go into.
Oh, okay, and then that's whereit will stop.
But the, the catcher's mitt, isbasically burned fuel prior to
the big burn.
So then it's.
(06:54):
It's hard to describe in words.
It's easier to see, but youwill get your area.
You want the fire to go allblocked out and burn safely, and
then you can ignite the otherside and let the wind do the
rest of the work, and by thetime the fire travels to the far
end that you've alreadydesigned this mitt.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
There's nothing out and the fire will literally put
itself out so all along the way,then there's people there
making sure that it doesn't getout of that designated,
designated area yeah, so there'sholding you.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Those people are called the holding crews.
Okay, so generally you havelittle units of crews on the
outside of the perimeter wherethe fire is and they have
backpack pumps and they mighthave an engine with 150 gallons,
there might be 700.
So there's water.
Our water sources are allplanned.
We know where to refill up.
(07:50):
When one becomes empty, there'sanother one to fill its place
while that one fills up.
So everything is is verystrategic.
On these controlled burns wow Ihad no idea.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So it's not just random, just random.
It's not somebody just throwinga match going okay, let's see
what happens.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, yeah, and it took me a little time to become
comfortable and get mentored,because you think fire.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
you know, everybody thinks fire is as so negative,
but it's not.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, but there is good use of fire and you can get
lots of acreage and lots ofvegetation management in a large
area for relatively cheap right.
Think about if you had to gomow 500 acres.
How long would it take you tomow 500 acres versus what is it
(08:38):
going to take you to burn 500acres less than a day?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So I read that using.
So I know we're jumping around,but we'll get.
Let me just say this I had readthat using fire to do something
like, like you know, burn anarea like that is actually
better for the land, because theash then from the vegetation
feeds the land, where if it'sjust cut cut it may take a long
(09:05):
time years to actually decomposeand feed the land.
So it's actually a quicker wayof of giving the land more
nutrients.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, and there's all sorts of stuff going on with
that um on large forestmanagement projects which we
might go into if you in a littlebit, there's these biochar
machines that will take thetrees and the vegetation that
you burn and turn it intobiochar that can then be spread
(09:33):
and left in the area.
And what does that do?
Brings that nutrients and back.
It's not charcoal, no, so it'sbiochar.
I'm not exactly sure whatdifferentiates charcoal from
it's like bioav'm not exactlysure what differentiates
charcoal from it's like bioavailable or charcoal isn't.
But something about how thebiochar is created.
It's carbon, yeah, it'ssomething about the carbon, and
(09:54):
so the carbon is actually putback into that soil, into that
habitat.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Wow, all right.
So who picks the areas that, Iguess?
Why?
Why certain areas, and who?
Who's in charge of pickingthose?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
It's pretty much up to the land management agencies
and and the agencies I haveworked for, generally they have
agreements with the local fireagency.
Okay, so there's a thing calleda vegetation management program
(10:33):
and it's an agreement with CALFIRE that everything gets set up
.
So not only are the prescribedcontrol fires planned to detail
for the day of the event, butthis very large, extensive
document was prepared with theenvironmental scientist and the
(10:53):
archaeologist and everybodywithin cal fires and within the
agency, and that documentoutlines um all of our
objectives and goals on paperand then generally has a map of
the areas that it's been agreedupon can be burned, and so you
(11:14):
have, you know, areas within theland that you own that are
already designated, and so wehave all of our compliance,
environmental compliance, withinthese documents also.
So anywhere that we, thatpeople would burn or are going
to burn, there's been thoroughstudy of wildlife and habitat
and sequas and environmentalimpact reports and
(11:37):
archaeologists, yeah, and so we.
Uh, a huge thing with fire is umcultural sites.
You know where artifacts mightbe, and so we obviously avoid
that.
There's a lot of burials onpublic lands, within parks that
you know.
There's a lot of people thatare into that, so that
(11:58):
information is kept silent whereburial sites are.
But that's all mapped out inthese larger documents and then
for the agencies to have andthen and then respected for as
part of this.
So you know we will still burnabove those areas.
But then it's understood likeum, you know there's control
(12:20):
lines and hand lines that getput in with tools.
So then there's the, you know,top layer or whatever layer of
the earth might be disturbed.
So then if within one of ourcontrol sites we know there's an
archaeological site, everyoneat the briefing in the beginning
of the day will be notifiedthat, like no, you know, no, uh,
(12:42):
you cannot break any earth orany ground within this area, and
it all gets flagged and avoided.
Wow, wow, that's cool, yeah.
So, wow, the control burn isvery planned day of, and then
there's many years of planningthat go into having an agreement
with the fire agency to ensurethat everything is written down
on paper and agreed upon priorto these events happening.
(13:04):
So, which can be bureaucratic,and it took us, uh, it takes
people, it takes agencies a longtime to to get the permitting.
Where I know there's some other, uh, land management agencies
in the region that had fireprograms and then they stopped
them.
So then you're, you're kind ofnot valid anymore and you have
to reestablish all of thesethings and it can be a very
(13:27):
lengthy bureaucratic process.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Interesting.
So why?
Why are we doing this?
Why are we burning?
Why are we setting things onfire?
On purpose?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
As a biologist and resource manager, my objective
is ecological Okay, and sogenerally it's to enhance the
habitat, to promote the native.
So a lot of the native plantsthat you would find in
California are adapted to fire.
They want fire, they need fire.
We'll manage invasive speciesum through fire.
(14:06):
So yellow star thistle,thistles, um try to burn it to
get rid of the seed so that itwill not spread, but then
hopefully the native plantsbecause it's more sensitive.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
So a lot of these invasive species are more
sensitive to fire.
Yeah, yes, yes, okay, so firethen can eliminate them.
So what's the deal withinvasive species?
What's the problem there?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Over my many years of work I've tried to make A very
concise statement about becauseI've led guided hikes and you
teach people and you say this isinvasive and this is native.
But they're like it's like it'spretty Well, what's the point?
So the best analogy that I havethat I think everybody can
(14:55):
understand is think of anecosystem as your car Right and
so ecosystem as your car rightand so everyone has your car.
You have to maintain your carWith all the dog hair, but I'm
thinking of the engine and howyour car runs but you're not
going to get your dog in the caror go anywhere if your car's
not running.
(15:16):
So think about the oil you haveto put, the gas you have to put
into your car.
And like what if you put dieselinto a gas engine?
Yeah, problems, you haveproblems.
So if you put a lot of dieselinto a gas engine, like, then
you have to fix that.
So whether you're putting thewrong oil or the wrong fluids or
(15:37):
the wrong spaces, like, yourcar is still going to function.
I mean, if you it's, this isthe closest analogy I've your
car is still going to function.
I mean, if you it's, this isthe closest analogy.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I've gotten Okay, okay Right.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
But then it's, if you put um, some, you know the
wrong fluids in your car isstill going to work, but is it
going to work good, and is itgoing to work for 20 years or is
it going to work for five years?
So another analogy could alsobe your body right and how you
feed and fuel your body so youcould eat vegetables and things
(16:09):
that are healthy for you, thatare natural for you, or you
could eat McDonald's or fastfood every day, so how this then
applies to that talking aboutinvasives is you're just getting
a smaller return.
So your life expectancy would beless if you weren't eating the
correct food and you would havehealth problems.
So the land starts to get sickand degraded.
(16:33):
And so, how the land wouldnaturally function on something
healthy, it's still functioningbecause it's not like an
invasive plant is ruining theland.
Right, there's still insectsgoing up for pollination.
Um, there's still animalseating it, all these things.
So it's not like the ecosystemis completely failing because of
(16:54):
these invasives, but it's justnot running, it's not thriving,
it's not thriving as it could.
And then all the things thatare connected to that,
specifically plants and thatsoil, right.
So then, uh, the the butterflymight be getting nectar, but
maybe it's not the right kind ofnectar.
So then that butterflies havingless babies are not enough
(17:17):
energy.
So, um, when you're putting inthe wrong food in your body, the
wrong, taking wrong care ofyour car, you're not getting the
life expectancy and it's notthriving.
The same way, that will happento an ecosystem.
That's a good analogy.
Okay, got it, that's a goodanalogy, right?
So it's not like you're goingto die if you eat McDonald's,
right?
Or fast food or bad food, butit's definitely not making you
(17:42):
the best that you could be, toyour fullest potential.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
So fire, then, is used to remove invasive species.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Invasive species, but also, as a lot of people know,
fire is a natural adaptation ofthe habitats found in California
.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
What do you?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
mean by that.
So before humans existed, therewould have been lightning
strikes, there would have beenfires, and they would have
burned for thousands andthousands of acres until they
put themselves out.
Okay, they put themselves out,okay.
So a lot of the the plants thatyou see, um, want fire.
So these habitats have evolvedto have a regular disturbance
(18:28):
regime of fire and then, onceyou put humans into having homes
and being permanently here andstopping fire now we're
preventing all these ecosystemsthat once, in whatever that
regular interval, they would seefire.
They then no longer see fire.
Fire is a natural occurrence.
(18:49):
Yes, so fire is a naturaloccurrence that we have
suppressed due to fear ofcatastrophic fires and fires
burning our homes, and so we'vesuppressed it.
But it is something that shouldnaturally be happening at
varying intervals depending on ahabitat.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
So I think that takes me to what I learned about
today, about cultural fire andfire that's been used by
indigenous peoples around theworld for millennia to manage
the land and, in turn, protectit from devastating wildfires.
And these communities view fireas sacred and a powerful
(19:32):
element used in ceremony,community protection and
sustaining diverse plant andanimal life.
And sustaining diverse plantand animal life and you know the
same kind of things.
It reduced invasive species, itpromoted the ecosystem and it
supported wildlife, food andmedicinal plants.
(19:54):
So I know that indigenouspeoples around the globe have
always used fire as one of theirsacred tools to walk through
the earth?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Yeah, exactly, but I think they and I am saying this
not in fact, but I'm assumingthey begun to use fire in their
regular life as an observationof seeing it happen naturally.
Yes, right, so I don't thinkone day somebody woke up and was
(20:27):
like, oh, we need to burn that.
Just through hundreds andthousands of years of being on
that landscape, landscape andlearning from their ancestors
who saw a natural fire startbecause fire is natural and
there would be lightning strikesthat would start fire and then
that fire would burn so I'm sure, through their observations of
(20:47):
seeing these natural fires, theythen began to learn that it's a
way that they could manage.
And the only thing, um, withwhat you said about the burning
is I don't know how manyinvasive species there would
have been, historically right.
So invasive species is kind of anew thing oh yes, because once
there was European movementaround the globe, that's when
(21:10):
invasives came, so they probably, you know, didn't have too many
species they were unfamiliarwith Understand, of course, like
we do now, which is, you know,one of our main objectives for
using fire good fire lasthundred years or so.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
My understanding too is that a lot of the indigenous
people were no longer allowed touse cultural fire and it kind
(21:48):
of changed the landscape of alot of the forests and a lot of
the habitats.
And can you explain that alittle bit?
What kind of then started?
You know whether it's theundergrowth or yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
So and I think now, one of the objectives of
prescribed fire, controlled fire, good fire, is to reduce the
fuels that are overabundant,that have a lot to do with just
what we thought were theappropriate land management
practices.
So you know, um theenvironmental movement and not
(22:21):
cutting down forest because wethought it was bad to do
forestry one.
You know, some level ofmanaging the forest is necessary
if we're not going to allowfire or or allow anything.
So I think the uh, we arebeginning to understand that um
(22:42):
allowing um these native peopleback onto their lands to be
allowed to do these things asnecessary.
There's a lot of agencies thatare allowing them to do cultural
burns, um I understand they'reworking hand in hand now.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yes, yes, more so than ever.
Then.
More so than ever.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, more so than ever but, but there's still a
lot of constraints as far asAmerican modern ideals on having
someone to be federallyrecognized as a tribe and what
does that mean?
And these are all parametersthat we, as outsiders, have put
on them Right, have put on themright.
(23:25):
So, um, I see a huge movementin pushing towards um, having
the participation of natives inthese burns and using the um
traditional ecosystem knowledgethat they have to manage these
landscapes, um, but there'sstill a lot of bureaucratic and
political things that arepreventing these relationships
from flourishing.
(23:45):
So I hope it's coming.
It's coming.
Yes, we want political.
Yeah, we're on a precipice ofthat era coming, but it's slow
and steady and it's got to be atthis.
You know, as Americans, in ourculture, it's kind of we want
things quick and things tohappen fast.
(24:08):
But, as it was explained to meby an elder, we have to do it at
the tribal pace and it mightnot be at the same pace, which
is different.
Even a slow you know,bureaucracies pace might be,
might be faster than the tribalpace.
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
But going back to those types of practices then,
whether it's a more ancientpractice that I know that the
organizations you're talkingabout now are using as well,
you're talking.
Tell me what you're removingwhen you do a.
Besides invasive species.
I saw a diagram that wastalking about a heavier forest,
(24:55):
you know, with the big trees,the big timber, and they did a
burn underneath and it got allthe little stuff off the bottom.
It didn't burn the trees and itactually it was all about
protecting the roots as well ofthese ancient trees, but it
didn't.
So tell me about that, becausethat that to me looks like a way
(25:16):
of to manage these big fireswhen you have a lightning strike
, for example a way of to managethese big fires, yes, when you
have a lightning strike, forexample, exactly, and so that's
that's a big thing.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Is um, locally here, uh, within the santa cruz
mountains, it was logged rightand so at one point, logging and
logging is not bad, there's asustainable and good way to log.
But I think, um, at you know,whatever point, when the
majority of the santa cruzmountains was logged, there was
clear cuts.
Ah, that's different and that'sdifferent.
(25:49):
There's like clear cutting,there's unhealthy logging and
forest management and there'shealthy forest management.
But at that time people didn'tknow and it was just like, hey,
I can get money for all theseredwood trees, so let's remove
all these redwoods, which haschanged completely.
There's some very greatforesters out there Got it.
(26:11):
The whole forestry hascompletely changed from what it
was.
In logging operations, awesomeCan happen in a sustainable way.
And after these larger fireswe're realizing, if you look at
um the santa cruz mountains andthe fires that happened, the
areas that were logged had lessintense fires than the areas
(26:31):
that were not logged okay,because they're logging them and
managing them actively where alot of the protected lands and
private lands um, you know, it'skind of been um part of the
smoky bear era we're gonna talkabout smoking the bear here.
Yeah, wait, let's finish that.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
One thought though um , about, about the burning of
the underneath yeah, so, um,they call those ladder fuels.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Oh, okay, and so when you study, uh, fire science and
fire ecology, a stick and grassgrass is an hour uh, you know
there's different times it wouldtake that to burn.
So think about how quick ablade of grass would catch on
fire versus a twig, versus asapling, versus a bush, versus a
(27:21):
hundred year old redwood tree.
Okay, so if you took a lighterup to a blade of grass, it would
ignite.
Yeah, if you would bring alighter up to a twig, it would
take you some time, but if itwas dry it would ignite pretty
quick.
But could you go up to ahundred year old redwood tree
and get it to ignite with yourlighter?
(27:41):
Probably not, I hope not.
So what you're talking aboutwith you know, 50-year-old,
whatever kind of tree chancesare, then the fire is going to
(28:05):
be so intense near and aroundthat tree that then that tree
will ignite.
Oh, so then it goes up theladder.
So then it goes up the trees andthen it'll get into the canopy
of the forest and then you havewhat they call crown fires.
And then those are what iscatastrophic Not necessarily for
redwoods, because redwoods arevery adapted to fire and they
(28:27):
can grow back from fire.
But you know, if you torch atree all the way to the top,
it's going to die a lot of them.
But if just some of it burnedalong the outside and maybe a
little bit of the lichen and themoss or a few of the lower
branches, that tree is going tosurvive.
So the idea behind that landmanagement is getting rid of
(28:48):
those lighter, lighter fuelsthat are going to create a
larger catastrophic fire.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
So that's how they manage and protect them.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
So again, through controlled burns, yes, I mean
there's a lot of you, there's alot that would have to go in
before just burning that stuff.
But a lot of the forest healthprojects happening locally is
paying contractors and people tocome in and masticate and
remove those lighter fuels, andso also people that live in
(29:21):
these communities around thisforest are beginning to learn.
A lot of people wantedscreening and privacy, but now
they're realizing that havingthose bushes is just kind of
putting them in danger.
It's fuel.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Got it.
Got it, okay, interesting, allright.
So I think we understand why.
Why now we're seeing the reallypositive effects of controlled
burns, from land restoration,returning the nutrients to the
ground, destroying invasivenative plants, and then, I think
(29:53):
you mentioned, to certainplants, especially in
environments, I think, aroundthe globe, that have natural
fire.
I know everywhere has naturalfires, but, like you said,
california plants were adaptedto it because it's kind of part
of the makeup of the landscape,landscape here.
So certain plants, though, needfire right in order to disperse
(30:16):
their seeds.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
yeah, I mean, I think a lot of that is like pine
forest.
Yes, the pine, the pine thepine family.
In order for that cone to openand distribute that seed needs
fire.
But yeah, I think in general,like a lot of the chaparral
habitats that you see up andaround the mountains around here
, are also very adapted to fireas well.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
So okay, so removing the use of cultural fire over
the years.
And then I don't know when thisguy was introduced, but you
know, we all grew up with Smokeythe Bear and we laughed, you
guys, because we both, when wesaid Smokey the Bear, Dana was
(31:04):
like oh yeah, you know.
And a friend of mine told metoo that Smokey was a problem,
you know, but he had.
I think the intentions weregood, obviously, but smoky the
bear did a really good job,didn't he?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
he did and so I think that's um.
It was 1944.
1944, smoky was introduced.
Yeah, so the creation of smokythe bear was authorized by the
Forest Service.
And it was about preventingforest fires and it was because
you do see a lot of fires thatare man induced.
(31:40):
Oh, campers.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Maybe campers by accident, so accident.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
A lot of the fires you see locally is people mowing
during a hot day because theywant to get rid of the grass.
Right, that's a big mistakepeople do.
The days start getting hot andyou think, man, I haven't mowed
my dry grass.
So they go out and mow theirdry grass and then a spark
ignites and the humidity is lowand the temperature is high and
(32:03):
then a fire starts.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
All the right things.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
All the right things, but it's funny because it's
pretty counterintuitive.
Somebody went outside toprevent fire, but then started
the fire.
So so, yeah, I think that wasthe whole initiative of Smokey
the Bear right Put out yourforest fire and have better
management practices when you'reout in the forest from 1944.
But they did such a good joband it's such a creative and
(32:29):
friendly way to approach thistopic that it was super
successful and in turn, kind ofand in turn it uh made everyone
think that fire had to bestopped and prevented and, um,
you know, maybe it gave firethat perception of being bad
right, so smoky the bear saysonly you can prevent forest
(32:52):
fires that's yeah, and did agood job.
Yeah, did a good job did a goodjob.
So it's pretty interesting tosee how something that was maybe
a safety thing I feel likesnowballed into this huge
cultural perception of firebeing a bat being bad and
wanting to stop it.
And I was having an interestingconversation with someone the
(33:14):
other day about control.
Like, obviously we're havingcontrolled, prescribed fires,
but then we do have forest firesthat are start naturally or
unnaturally, and in places likeCalifornia and within some fire
agencies, your immediateresponse is to stop the fire,
(33:35):
right, like, oh no, there's afire, we've got to put the fire
out.
And so a lot of the tacticsthat are used to put out fire is
bulldozer equipment, is flameretardants from aircraft.
Right, that's the.
You see the thing dropping?
Yeah, that they drop.
I mean they are dropping water,but sometimes there's flame
retardant.
So a lot of people go straightto suppression.
(33:57):
Oh no, there's a fire, let'ssuppress it.
But then you look at some otheragencies and it's more federal
agencies where it's like thenthe one interesting thing that I
learned being trained in firestuff was you don't fight a fire
head on, right, if there's ahuge fire coming at you, you're
(34:19):
stupid to think that you can putit out with your the water,
that the trunk in your engine orthat you have right.
So a lot of what you learn ishow to strategically fight the
fire where you can win.
So you would never, uh, fight afire head on, um, you know.
So a lot of times they'll thendoze a line a mile, two miles in
(34:41):
a contingency, or you knowthey're gonna, they're gonna,
bulldoze ahead and get rid ofthat vegetation.
So then when that fire frontcomes, it will stop it.
But then like the catcher'smitt.
like the catcher's mitt.
Like the catcher's mitt, butquickly, and you can do
backburning also as a catcher'smitt, which is probably
preferable, but then sometimespeople will come in with a
(35:01):
bulldozer.
And as a biologist and landmanager, then you have all this
excavated, moved dirt for manymiles that causes ecological
problems, so like.
But we're on this here, we'reon this like suppression
bulldoze, stop it where.
If you look at the uh forestservice now and blm, they'll let
(35:22):
that fire go right and sothey're not so much worried, but
they do have more acreage andprobably less homes right, right
to worry about, but um, and whyare they letting it go?
for the reasons that we'retalking about well, I think so,
but then it's just like a shiftin culture and thought of, like,
what these agencies want to do,where it's like, instead of
(35:44):
thinking about, well, we have tostop it here, like, um, I know
that, uh, what's the firefighter?
Um saying, hurry up and wait.
Oh, because, like, usually,it's like, oh, there's a fire,
get your gear.
Yes, everyone, get ready, hurryup, get there.
And then you get there, andthen the ic is like well, we're
just waiting until, uh, it getshere.
(36:05):
Right, so a lot of yourplanning is for where the fire
is going to go.
But I think the forest serviceand the blm have learned like
and the blm is the Bureau ofLand Management- Because not
everybody knows that.
Yeah.
So you know they're like, well,we're just going to let it run
to that road, because there'salready a road there.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Oh, so it's not going to pass the road.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
It's a break, so it's already a break and instead of,
like you know, getting a dozerin there and dozing and doing
all this work, why don't we justget all our crews stopped at
this road, maybe burn in acatcher's mitt, right?
So then when it gets there, itjust naturally will put itself
out.
So these are all the likelittle things that a lot of the
(36:46):
average person isn't thinkingabout, that fire, fire minded
people, the trained people, um,know and think about when it
comes to fighting fire.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Wow, there's a lot to it.
There is a lot to it and I'vealways heard that fire kind of
has a mind of its own.
It's very unpredictable.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
I mean technically it can be unpredictable, and I
think it's not fire that'sunpredictable.
It could be weather, that'sunpredictable that feeds it
right, that feeds it.
And so I mean, obviously you getfire at certain levels and it
is, and there's fire whirls andthis stuff.
But I think the other thing too, when you look at these large
(37:27):
scale fires, like they havepeople that are checking the
know the weather patterns forweeks in advance, you know, and
so a lot of fire stuff isknowing the future weather.
So that's one of the thingsthey first train you.
But it's like you know it'sgoing to be 90 degrees and low
humidity for the next two days,but in three days there's a low
(37:50):
pressure system coming in andthe humidity is going to
increase and the temperature isgoing to drop and then naturally
the fire won't have as muchenergy to start to suppress,
it'll start to suppress.
So another big thing is justlike knowing weather patterns
and wind shifts.
You know the fire can be goingone way and the wind's pushing
it and it's going really fast,and then, whether whether you're
(38:12):
in a Canyon or um, uh, you knowthe fog comes in out here, like
the fog causes a big wind shiftin the afternoon.
So all these things are arehaving an effect on that fire.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
One question that I I I didn't look up any
information on this what doprescribed fires do for wildlife
?
I have this vision, dana.
You know my vision.
You know, because I've alwaysheard, too, that the raptors sit
on the outskirts of a fire.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, we're talking the birds of prey, you guys, sit
on the outskirts and wait forthe little animals to run out.
And it's like, yeah, time to runout and it's like, yeah, time,
yeah, I mean, if it was natural.
And I mean any, do they do that?
Have you seen that?
Yeah, I mean, I have, I haveseen that.
But um, there's a verypredictable predator prey cycle
(39:07):
and relationship and ecologythat you study and you know prey
population goes up.
Predator population eats that.
So they're like cyclical right.
So the the lower, smaller preyanimal will increase and then
they'll be more bobcats got it.
But then there'll be so manybobcats and they'll have babies
(39:28):
and have a few successful years,but then they eat all the
squirrels and the rodents.
So then the squirrel and rodentpopulation drops, but then
shortly after that so will thebobcat population.
So they're very dependent oneach other.
But it's natural to see andthat increases and decreases.
so, um, any large animals gonnaget away, you know, okay, um,
(39:50):
specifically in the prescribedcontrol burns, um, oh, because
they're slow moving right, orlike a deer.
A deer is going to know what'sgoing on and run away.
But I would say as far asrodents, they'll probably get
under the ground.
No wonder.
I'm assuming lizards and snakeswould be able to get out of the
(40:10):
way, but I'm sure there's somecasualty of wildlife that's but
if it was happening, naturallyit would happen also.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
I just I think about that.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
I you know the whole idea of all the animals running
out of the forest part of, likeour controlled, prescribed burn
planning is that there's like,if there was a raptor nest,
right, so like as a biologist,I'm the biologist on the fire
that's like, hey, we have anactive nest here and so this
will be avoided, right, and sothen we would put a perimeter
(40:43):
around that active nest.
Or obviously, if we knew, uh,there was a den with coyote
babies or bobcat babies, likethat then would be avoided and
excluded from any prescribed orcontrolled burn.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Nice, nice.
So it really is.
I mean, it sounds to me likeevery all these details are
thought out and there'sobviously unavoidable things.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
At times, like you know, something gets missed, but
that's kind of the naturalcycle right If it was a natural
fire, it would probably haveconsequences Some you know bad
consequences on some wildlifepopulations.
But we try to thoroughly avoidthat.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Awesome Good fire.
I would never have really putthose two words together, but I
see now the important role thatfire plays in our forests and
other landscapes.
Fire is a part of nature, likerain.
It's an essential element ofthe Earth's ecosystem, one that
(41:46):
we must learn to respect andcoexist with, while creating
that balance between itspotential for destruction and
its role in renewal.
Thanks for listening.
You guys Take care of eachother.
Thank you.
In today's conversation, we're going to dig
deeper into the complex role offire in our forests,
acknowledging its sacredness andancestral connections.
Fire holds deep significance inmany cultures, symbolizing both
destruction and renewal, andlife and death, and renewal and
(00:28):
life and death.
We'll explore how ancientwisdom intersects with modern
science as we discuss thepractice of prescribed fires, or
also called controlled burns, amethod rooted in traditional
knowledge and adapted forcontemporary forest management.
There is a delicate balance ofharnessing the power of fire to
protect our lands, and we'regoing to explore the benefits of
(00:49):
good fire that was a term thatI learned in this conversation
and we're going to see itsimportance in shaping and
protecting the ecosystems.
(01:19):
Hi everybody, we are with DanaPage again, who is a San
Francisco Bay Area wildlifebiologist, and today we're
talking about a subject that Iactually really didn't know much
about.
It was Dana's suggestion, but Ithought, oh, let's check this
out.
Prescribed fires, or they'realso called controlled burns,
and I know that fire might be asensitive topic, particularly in
(01:43):
California, with several yearsof tremendous fire seasons.
Dana's going to help us weedthrough the good, the bad and
the ugly if there is any uglyabout controlled burns.
Welcome, Dana.
Thanks for joining us againtoday.
Thank you, Vanessa.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Pleasure to be here and talk about a very timely
topic.
And talk about a very timelytopic.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Excellent, excellent.
So I think I know what acontrolled burn is, but the more
I read about the topic inpreparation for our conversation
, the more I learned that it'snot necessarily a negative
practice.
You know, fire, fire.
You know everybody thinks aboutfire, which I and I think,
because a lot of people thinkthat we're setting the forest on
(02:25):
fire or some natural habitat,and that sounds kind of scary.
So, dana, let's start with, Ithink, the big question what is
a prescribed fire or acontrolled burn?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, you can.
You can call it eithercontrolled burn, prescribed um,
but they are fire that are it'sfire that is planned okay.
So, specifically here in thesan francisco bay, land
management agencies has haverealized that fire is crucial
(03:00):
and good fire is crucial.
So a lot of people are tryingto put good fire in front of the
name fire, because they'rechanging yeah, not just to
change that perception.
And not all fire is bad, got it,they're obviously.
Recently here in the bay areawith the lightning storms we had
some catastrophic fires thatburned down people's homes and
(03:25):
were very devastating.
So instead of interpreting fireas being bad and catastrophic,
there are also good fires.
So a controlled fire,prescribed fire, is a fire
that's planned, planned withland management agencies, with
fire agencies, various fireagencies.
You could have county fire,city fires, cal Fire, but Cal
(03:48):
Fire is kind of the big playerand more of the larger landscape
here in California.
But you have federal agenciesthat also do fire.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
guys do all this together.
Generally it is somethingthat's done together.
So we, most land agencies,would not have a fire or don't
have the equipment, so it'shaving the crews there.
You need bodies that arepatrolling the perimeter, people
that are starting the fire.
There's a whole chain ofcommand that happens and you
(04:20):
need multiple engines andeverything is designed and set
up to be successful and safe andsafe exactly so.
The, the temperature variations,the weather, all of this is
considered in the locationbefore a fire takes place, a
(04:40):
prescribed fire, and so they areevents that are planned and
controlled.
They have a prescription.
That's why you might hearprescribed.
So there might be someobjectives in this prescribed
fire, such as burning non-nativeplants, shrubs.
So that's why you might hear,you know a fire prescription,
(05:03):
which also relates to theweather.
So you have to be within aprescription of if it's too hot,
we're not going to burn.
If the humidity is too low,there will be no burning.
If the wind gets above acertain temperature, there will
also be no burning.
So fire science is used, a lotof experts and time goes into
(05:23):
planning these events.
A lot of experts and time goesinto planning these events, and
sometimes you plan them.
And then the day comes and theday is not right, so it could be
too hot, it could be too windy.
Sometimes you have to cancel.
So also, things are notflammable all times of the year.
Right after it rains, when it'swet, you're not going to get
(05:43):
green grass to burn.
So, really, timing your eventfor what your objective is.
But they are.
They're controlled and wellthought out, and until I was
actively on one of these myself,it scared me also.
But once I startedparticipating and seeing the
thought that goes into it andthe methodical planning in how
(06:09):
everything is designed, youactually don't even have to put
the fire out.
The fire puts itself out the waythat it's designed Really, and
so you're using wind directionwith that.
So if the wind's coming acertain direction, there's
backing fires that go into thewind that are nice and slow.
So it's described a lot oftimes as a catcher's mitt, right
(06:32):
, and so think about a catcher'smitt.
One side of where you're tryingto burn is the mitt where the
fire's going to go into.
Oh, okay, and then that's whereit will stop.
But the, the catcher's mitt, isbasically burned fuel prior to
the big burn.
So then it's.
(06:54):
It's hard to describe in words.
It's easier to see, but youwill get your area.
You want the fire to go allblocked out and burn safely, and
then you can ignite the otherside and let the wind do the
rest of the work, and by thetime the fire travels to the far
end that you've alreadydesigned this mitt.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
There's nothing out and the fire will literally put
itself out so all along the way,then there's people there
making sure that it doesn't getout of that designated,
designated area yeah, so there'sholding you.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Those people are called the holding crews.
Okay, so generally you havelittle units of crews on the
outside of the perimeter wherethe fire is and they have
backpack pumps and they mighthave an engine with 150 gallons,
there might be 700.
So there's water.
Our water sources are allplanned.
We know where to refill up.
(07:50):
When one becomes empty, there'sanother one to fill its place
while that one fills up.
So everything is is verystrategic.
On these controlled burns wow Ihad no idea.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So it's not just random, just random.
It's not somebody just throwinga match going okay, let's see
what happens.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, yeah, and it took me a little time to become
comfortable and get mentored,because you think fire.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
you know, everybody thinks fire is as so negative,
but it's not.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, but there is good use of fire and you can get
lots of acreage and lots ofvegetation management in a large
area for relatively cheap right.
Think about if you had to gomow 500 acres.
How long would it take you tomow 500 acres versus what is it
(08:38):
going to take you to burn 500acres less than a day?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So I read that using.
So I know we're jumping around,but we'll get.
Let me just say this I had readthat using fire to do something
like, like you know, burn anarea like that is actually
better for the land, because theash then from the vegetation
feeds the land, where if it'sjust cut cut it may take a long
(09:05):
time years to actually decomposeand feed the land.
So it's actually a quicker wayof of giving the land more
nutrients.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, and there's all sorts of stuff going on with
that um on large forestmanagement projects which we
might go into if you in a littlebit, there's these biochar
machines that will take thetrees and the vegetation that
you burn and turn it intobiochar that can then be spread
(09:33):
and left in the area.
And what does that do?
Brings that nutrients and back.
It's not charcoal, no, so it'sbiochar.
I'm not exactly sure whatdifferentiates charcoal from
it's like bioav'm not exactlysure what differentiates
charcoal from it's like bioavailable or charcoal isn't.
But something about how thebiochar is created.
It's carbon, yeah, it'ssomething about the carbon, and
(09:54):
so the carbon is actually putback into that soil, into that
habitat.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Wow, all right.
So who picks the areas that, Iguess?
Why?
Why certain areas, and who?
Who's in charge of pickingthose?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
It's pretty much up to the land management agencies
and and the agencies I haveworked for, generally they have
agreements with the local fireagency.
Okay, so there's a thing calleda vegetation management program
(10:33):
and it's an agreement with CALFIRE that everything gets set up
.
So not only are the prescribedcontrol fires planned to detail
for the day of the event, butthis very large, extensive
document was prepared with theenvironmental scientist and the
(10:53):
archaeologist and everybodywithin cal fires and within the
agency, and that documentoutlines um all of our
objectives and goals on paperand then generally has a map of
the areas that it's been agreedupon can be burned, and so you
(11:14):
have, you know, areas within theland that you own that are
already designated, and so wehave all of our compliance,
environmental compliance, withinthese documents also.
So anywhere that we, thatpeople would burn or are going
to burn, there's been thoroughstudy of wildlife and habitat
and sequas and environmentalimpact reports and
(11:37):
archaeologists, yeah, and so we.
Uh, a huge thing with fire is umcultural sites.
You know where artifacts mightbe, and so we obviously avoid
that.
There's a lot of burials onpublic lands, within parks that
you know.
There's a lot of people thatare into that, so that
(11:58):
information is kept silent whereburial sites are.
But that's all mapped out inthese larger documents and then
for the agencies to have andthen and then respected for as
part of this.
So you know we will still burnabove those areas.
But then it's understood likeum, you know there's control
(12:20):
lines and hand lines that getput in with tools.
So then there's the, you know,top layer or whatever layer of
the earth might be disturbed.
So then if within one of ourcontrol sites we know there's an
archaeological site, everyoneat the briefing in the beginning
of the day will be notifiedthat, like no, you know, no, uh,
(12:42):
you cannot break any earth orany ground within this area, and
it all gets flagged and avoided.
Wow, wow, that's cool, yeah.
So, wow, the control burn isvery planned day of, and then
there's many years of planningthat go into having an agreement
with the fire agency to ensurethat everything is written down
on paper and agreed upon priorto these events happening.
(13:04):
So, which can be bureaucratic,and it took us, uh, it takes
people, it takes agencies a longtime to to get the permitting.
Where I know there's some other, uh, land management agencies
in the region that had fireprograms and then they stopped
them.
So then you're, you're kind ofnot valid anymore and you have
to reestablish all of thesethings and it can be a very
(13:27):
lengthy bureaucratic process.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Interesting.
So why?
Why are we doing this?
Why are we burning?
Why are we setting things onfire?
On purpose?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
As a biologist and resource manager, my objective
is ecological Okay, and sogenerally it's to enhance the
habitat, to promote the native.
So a lot of the native plantsthat you would find in
California are adapted to fire.
They want fire, they need fire.
We'll manage invasive speciesum through fire.
(14:06):
So yellow star thistle,thistles, um try to burn it to
get rid of the seed so that itwill not spread, but then
hopefully the native plantsbecause it's more sensitive.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
So a lot of these invasive species are more
sensitive to fire.
Yeah, yes, yes, okay, so firethen can eliminate them.
So what's the deal withinvasive species?
What's the problem there?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Over my many years of work I've tried to make A very
concise statement about becauseI've led guided hikes and you
teach people and you say this isinvasive and this is native.
But they're like it's like it'spretty Well, what's the point?
So the best analogy that I havethat I think everybody can
(14:55):
understand is think of anecosystem as your car Right and
so ecosystem as your car rightand so everyone has your car.
You have to maintain your carWith all the dog hair, but I'm
thinking of the engine and howyour car runs but you're not
going to get your dog in the caror go anywhere if your car's
not running.
(15:16):
So think about the oil you haveto put, the gas you have to put
into your car.
And like what if you put dieselinto a gas engine?
Yeah, problems, you haveproblems.
So if you put a lot of dieselinto a gas engine, like, then
you have to fix that.
So whether you're putting thewrong oil or the wrong fluids or
(15:37):
the wrong spaces, like, yourcar is still going to function.
I mean, if you it's, this isthe closest analogy I've your
car is still going to function.
I mean, if you it's, this isthe closest analogy.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I've gotten Okay, okay Right.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
But then it's, if you put um, some, you know the
wrong fluids in your car isstill going to work, but is it
going to work good, and is itgoing to work for 20 years or is
it going to work for five years?
So another analogy could alsobe your body right and how you
feed and fuel your body so youcould eat vegetables and things
(16:09):
that are healthy for you, thatare natural for you, or you
could eat McDonald's or fastfood every day, so how this then
applies to that talking aboutinvasives is you're just getting
a smaller return.
So your life expectancy would beless if you weren't eating the
correct food and you would havehealth problems.
So the land starts to get sickand degraded.
(16:33):
And so, how the land wouldnaturally function on something
healthy, it's still functioningbecause it's not like an
invasive plant is ruining theland.
Right, there's still insectsgoing up for pollination.
Um, there's still animalseating it, all these things.
So it's not like the ecosystemis completely failing because of
(16:54):
these invasives, but it's justnot running, it's not thriving,
it's not thriving as it could.
And then all the things thatare connected to that,
specifically plants and thatsoil, right.
So then, uh, the the butterflymight be getting nectar, but
maybe it's not the right kind ofnectar.
So then that butterflies havingless babies are not enough
(17:17):
energy.
So, um, when you're putting inthe wrong food in your body, the
wrong, taking wrong care ofyour car, you're not getting the
life expectancy and it's notthriving.
The same way, that will happento an ecosystem.
That's a good analogy.
Okay, got it, that's a goodanalogy, right?
So it's not like you're goingto die if you eat McDonald's,
right?
Or fast food or bad food, butit's definitely not making you
(17:42):
the best that you could be, toyour fullest potential.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
So fire, then, is used to remove invasive species.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Invasive species, but also, as a lot of people know,
fire is a natural adaptation ofthe habitats found in California
.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
What do you?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
mean by that.
So before humans existed, therewould have been lightning
strikes, there would have beenfires, and they would have
burned for thousands andthousands of acres until they
put themselves out.
Okay, they put themselves out,okay.
So a lot of the the plants thatyou see, um, want fire.
So these habitats have evolvedto have a regular disturbance
(18:28):
regime of fire and then, onceyou put humans into having homes
and being permanently here andstopping fire now we're
preventing all these ecosystemsthat once, in whatever that
regular interval, they would seefire.
They then no longer see fire.
Fire is a natural occurrence.
(18:49):
Yes, so fire is a naturaloccurrence that we have
suppressed due to fear ofcatastrophic fires and fires
burning our homes, and so we'vesuppressed it.
But it is something that shouldnaturally be happening at
varying intervals depending on ahabitat.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
So I think that takes me to what I learned about
today, about cultural fire andfire that's been used by
indigenous peoples around theworld for millennia to manage
the land and, in turn, protectit from devastating wildfires.
And these communities view fireas sacred and a powerful
(19:32):
element used in ceremony,community protection and
sustaining diverse plant andanimal life.
And sustaining diverse plantand animal life and you know the
same kind of things.
It reduced invasive species, itpromoted the ecosystem and it
supported wildlife, food andmedicinal plants.
(19:54):
So I know that indigenouspeoples around the globe have
always used fire as one of theirsacred tools to walk through
the earth?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Yeah, exactly, but I think they and I am saying this
not in fact, but I'm assumingthey begun to use fire in their
regular life as an observationof seeing it happen naturally.
Yes, right, so I don't thinkone day somebody woke up and was
(20:27):
like, oh, we need to burn that.
Just through hundreds andthousands of years of being on
that landscape, landscape andlearning from their ancestors
who saw a natural fire startbecause fire is natural and
there would be lightning strikesthat would start fire and then
that fire would burn so I'm sure, through their observations of
(20:47):
seeing these natural fires, theythen began to learn that it's a
way that they could manage.
And the only thing, um, withwhat you said about the burning
is I don't know how manyinvasive species there would
have been, historically right.
So invasive species is kind of anew thing oh yes, because once
there was European movementaround the globe, that's when
(21:10):
invasives came, so they probably, you know, didn't have too many
species they were unfamiliarwith Understand, of course, like
we do now, which is, you know,one of our main objectives for
using fire good fire lasthundred years or so.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
My understanding too is that a lot of the indigenous
people were no longer allowed touse cultural fire and it kind
(21:48):
of changed the landscape of alot of the forests and a lot of
the habitats.
And can you explain that alittle bit?
What kind of then started?
You know whether it's theundergrowth or yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
So and I think now, one of the objectives of
prescribed fire, controlled fire, good fire, is to reduce the
fuels that are overabundant,that have a lot to do with just
what we thought were theappropriate land management
practices.
So you know, um theenvironmental movement and not
(22:21):
cutting down forest because wethought it was bad to do
forestry one.
You know, some level ofmanaging the forest is necessary
if we're not going to allowfire or or allow anything.
So I think the uh, we arebeginning to understand that um
(22:42):
allowing um these native peopleback onto their lands to be
allowed to do these things asnecessary.
There's a lot of agencies thatare allowing them to do cultural
burns, um I understand they'reworking hand in hand now.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yes, yes, more so than ever.
Then.
More so than ever.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, more so than ever but, but there's still a
lot of constraints as far asAmerican modern ideals on having
someone to be federallyrecognized as a tribe and what
does that mean?
And these are all parametersthat we, as outsiders, have put
on them Right, have put on themright.
(23:25):
So, um, I see a huge movementin pushing towards um, having
the participation of natives inthese burns and using the um
traditional ecosystem knowledgethat they have to manage these
landscapes, um, but there'sstill a lot of bureaucratic and
political things that arepreventing these relationships
from flourishing.
(23:45):
So I hope it's coming.
It's coming.
Yes, we want political.
Yeah, we're on a precipice ofthat era coming, but it's slow
and steady and it's got to be atthis.
You know, as Americans, in ourculture, it's kind of we want
things quick and things tohappen fast.
(24:08):
But, as it was explained to meby an elder, we have to do it at
the tribal pace and it mightnot be at the same pace, which
is different.
Even a slow you know,bureaucracies pace might be,
might be faster than the tribalpace.
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
But going back to those types of practices then,
whether it's a more ancientpractice that I know that the
organizations you're talkingabout now are using as well,
you're talking.
Tell me what you're removingwhen you do a.
Besides invasive species.
I saw a diagram that wastalking about a heavier forest,
(24:55):
you know, with the big trees,the big timber, and they did a
burn underneath and it got allthe little stuff off the bottom.
It didn't burn the trees and itactually it was all about
protecting the roots as well ofthese ancient trees, but it
didn't.
So tell me about that, becausethat that to me looks like a way
(25:16):
of to manage these big fireswhen you have a lightning strike
, for example a way of to managethese big fires, yes, when you
have a lightning strike, forexample, exactly, and so that's
that's a big thing.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Is um, locally here, uh, within the santa cruz
mountains, it was logged rightand so at one point, logging and
logging is not bad, there's asustainable and good way to log.
But I think, um, at you know,whatever point, when the
majority of the santa cruzmountains was logged, there was
clear cuts.
Ah, that's different and that'sdifferent.
(25:49):
There's like clear cutting,there's unhealthy logging and
forest management and there'shealthy forest management.
But at that time people didn'tknow and it was just like, hey,
I can get money for all theseredwood trees, so let's remove
all these redwoods, which haschanged completely.
There's some very greatforesters out there Got it.
(26:11):
The whole forestry hascompletely changed from what it
was.
In logging operations, awesomeCan happen in a sustainable way.
And after these larger fireswe're realizing, if you look at
um the santa cruz mountains andthe fires that happened, the
areas that were logged had lessintense fires than the areas
(26:31):
that were not logged okay,because they're logging them and
managing them actively where alot of the protected lands and
private lands um, you know, it'skind of been um part of the
smoky bear era we're gonna talkabout smoking the bear here.
Yeah, wait, let's finish that.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
One thought though um , about, about the burning of
the underneath yeah, so, um,they call those ladder fuels.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Oh, okay, and so when you study, uh, fire science and
fire ecology, a stick and grassgrass is an hour uh, you know
there's different times it wouldtake that to burn.
So think about how quick ablade of grass would catch on
fire versus a twig, versus asapling, versus a bush, versus a
(27:21):
hundred year old redwood tree.
Okay, so if you took a lighterup to a blade of grass, it would
ignite.
Yeah, if you would bring alighter up to a twig, it would
take you some time, but if itwas dry it would ignite pretty
quick.
But could you go up to ahundred year old redwood tree
and get it to ignite with yourlighter?
(27:41):
Probably not, I hope not.
So what you're talking aboutwith you know, 50-year-old,
whatever kind of tree chancesare, then the fire is going to
(28:05):
be so intense near and aroundthat tree that then that tree
will ignite.
Oh, so then it goes up theladder.
So then it goes up the trees andthen it'll get into the canopy
of the forest and then you havewhat they call crown fires.
And then those are what iscatastrophic Not necessarily for
redwoods, because redwoods arevery adapted to fire and they
(28:27):
can grow back from fire.
But you know, if you torch atree all the way to the top,
it's going to die a lot of them.
But if just some of it burnedalong the outside and maybe a
little bit of the lichen and themoss or a few of the lower
branches, that tree is going tosurvive.
So the idea behind that landmanagement is getting rid of
(28:48):
those lighter, lighter fuelsthat are going to create a
larger catastrophic fire.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
So that's how they manage and protect them.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
So again, through controlled burns, yes, I mean
there's a lot of you, there's alot that would have to go in
before just burning that stuff.
But a lot of the forest healthprojects happening locally is
paying contractors and people tocome in and masticate and
remove those lighter fuels, andso also people that live in
(29:21):
these communities around thisforest are beginning to learn.
A lot of people wantedscreening and privacy, but now
they're realizing that havingthose bushes is just kind of
putting them in danger.
It's fuel.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Got it.
Got it, okay, interesting, allright.
So I think we understand why.
Why now we're seeing the reallypositive effects of controlled
burns, from land restoration,returning the nutrients to the
ground, destroying invasivenative plants, and then, I think
(29:53):
you mentioned, to certainplants, especially in
environments, I think, aroundthe globe, that have natural
fire.
I know everywhere has naturalfires, but, like you said,
california plants were adaptedto it because it's kind of part
of the makeup of the landscape,landscape here.
So certain plants, though, needfire right in order to disperse
(30:16):
their seeds.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
yeah, I mean, I think a lot of that is like pine
forest.
Yes, the pine, the pine thepine family.
In order for that cone to openand distribute that seed needs
fire.
But yeah, I think in general,like a lot of the chaparral
habitats that you see up andaround the mountains around here
, are also very adapted to fireas well.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
So okay, so removing the use of cultural fire over
the years.
And then I don't know when thisguy was introduced, but you
know, we all grew up with Smokeythe Bear and we laughed, you
guys, because we both, when wesaid Smokey the Bear, Dana was
(31:04):
like oh yeah, you know.
And a friend of mine told metoo that Smokey was a problem,
you know, but he had.
I think the intentions weregood, obviously, but smoky the
bear did a really good job,didn't he?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
he did and so I think that's um.
It was 1944.
1944, smoky was introduced.
Yeah, so the creation of smokythe bear was authorized by the
Forest Service.
And it was about preventingforest fires and it was because
you do see a lot of fires thatare man induced.
(31:40):
Oh, campers.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Maybe campers by accident, so accident.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
A lot of the fires you see locally is people mowing
during a hot day because theywant to get rid of the grass.
Right, that's a big mistakepeople do.
The days start getting hot andyou think, man, I haven't mowed
my dry grass.
So they go out and mow theirdry grass and then a spark
ignites and the humidity is lowand the temperature is high and
(32:03):
then a fire starts.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
All the right things.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
All the right things, but it's funny because it's
pretty counterintuitive.
Somebody went outside toprevent fire, but then started
the fire.
So so, yeah, I think that wasthe whole initiative of Smokey
the Bear right Put out yourforest fire and have better
management practices when you'reout in the forest from 1944.
But they did such a good joband it's such a creative and
(32:29):
friendly way to approach thistopic that it was super
successful and in turn, kind ofand in turn it uh made everyone
think that fire had to bestopped and prevented and, um,
you know, maybe it gave firethat perception of being bad
right, so smoky the bear saysonly you can prevent forest
(32:52):
fires that's yeah, and did agood job.
Yeah, did a good job did a goodjob.
So it's pretty interesting tosee how something that was maybe
a safety thing I feel likesnowballed into this huge
cultural perception of firebeing a bat being bad and
wanting to stop it.
And I was having an interestingconversation with someone the
(33:14):
other day about control.
Like, obviously we're havingcontrolled, prescribed fires,
but then we do have forest firesthat are start naturally or
unnaturally, and in places likeCalifornia and within some fire
agencies, your immediateresponse is to stop the fire,
(33:35):
right, like, oh no, there's afire, we've got to put the fire
out.
And so a lot of the tacticsthat are used to put out fire is
bulldozer equipment, is flameretardants from aircraft.
Right, that's the.
You see the thing dropping?
Yeah, that they drop.
I mean they are dropping water,but sometimes there's flame
retardant.
So a lot of people go straightto suppression.
(33:57):
Oh no, there's a fire, let'ssuppress it.
But then you look at some otheragencies and it's more federal
agencies where it's like thenthe one interesting thing that I
learned being trained in firestuff was you don't fight a fire
head on, right, if there's ahuge fire coming at you, you're
(34:19):
stupid to think that you can putit out with your the water,
that the trunk in your engine orthat you have right.
So a lot of what you learn ishow to strategically fight the
fire where you can win.
So you would never, uh, fight afire head on, um, you know.
So a lot of times they'll thendoze a line a mile, two miles in
(34:41):
a contingency, or you knowthey're gonna, they're gonna,
bulldoze ahead and get rid ofthat vegetation.
So then when that fire frontcomes, it will stop it.
But then like the catcher'smitt.
like the catcher's mitt.
Like the catcher's mitt, butquickly, and you can do
backburning also as a catcher'smitt, which is probably
preferable, but then sometimespeople will come in with a
(35:01):
bulldozer.
And as a biologist and landmanager, then you have all this
excavated, moved dirt for manymiles that causes ecological
problems, so like.
But we're on this here, we'reon this like suppression
bulldoze, stop it where.
If you look at the uh forestservice now and blm, they'll let
(35:22):
that fire go right and sothey're not so much worried, but
they do have more acreage andprobably less homes right, right
to worry about, but um, and whyare they letting it go?
for the reasons that we'retalking about well, I think so,
but then it's just like a shiftin culture and thought of, like,
what these agencies want to do,where it's like, instead of
(35:44):
thinking about, well, we have tostop it here, like, um, I know
that, uh, what's the firefighter?
Um saying, hurry up and wait.
Oh, because, like, usually,it's like, oh, there's a fire,
get your gear.
Yes, everyone, get ready, hurryup, get there.
And then you get there, andthen the ic is like well, we're
just waiting until, uh, it getshere.
(36:05):
Right, so a lot of yourplanning is for where the fire
is going to go.
But I think the forest serviceand the blm have learned like
and the blm is the Bureau ofLand Management- Because not
everybody knows that.
Yeah.
So you know they're like, well,we're just going to let it run
to that road, because there'salready a road there.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Oh, so it's not going to pass the road.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
It's a break, so it's already a break and instead of,
like you know, getting a dozerin there and dozing and doing
all this work, why don't we justget all our crews stopped at
this road, maybe burn in acatcher's mitt, right?
So then when it gets there, itjust naturally will put itself
out.
So these are all the likelittle things that a lot of the
(36:46):
average person isn't thinkingabout, that fire, fire minded
people, the trained people, um,know and think about when it
comes to fighting fire.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Wow, there's a lot to it.
There is a lot to it and I'vealways heard that fire kind of
has a mind of its own.
It's very unpredictable.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
I mean technically it can be unpredictable, and I
think it's not fire that'sunpredictable.
It could be weather, that'sunpredictable that feeds it
right, that feeds it.
And so I mean, obviously you getfire at certain levels and it
is, and there's fire whirls andthis stuff.
But I think the other thing too, when you look at these large
(37:27):
scale fires, like they havepeople that are checking the
know the weather patterns forweeks in advance, you know, and
so a lot of fire stuff isknowing the future weather.
So that's one of the thingsthey first train you.
But it's like you know it'sgoing to be 90 degrees and low
humidity for the next two days,but in three days there's a low
(37:50):
pressure system coming in andthe humidity is going to
increase and the temperature isgoing to drop and then naturally
the fire won't have as muchenergy to start to suppress,
it'll start to suppress.
So another big thing is justlike knowing weather patterns
and wind shifts.
You know the fire can be goingone way and the wind's pushing
it and it's going really fast,and then, whether whether you're
(38:12):
in a Canyon or um, uh, you knowthe fog comes in out here, like
the fog causes a big wind shiftin the afternoon.
So all these things are arehaving an effect on that fire.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
One question that I I I didn't look up any
information on this what doprescribed fires do for wildlife
?
I have this vision, dana.
You know my vision.
You know, because I've alwaysheard, too, that the raptors sit
on the outskirts of a fire.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, we're talking the birds of prey, you guys, sit
on the outskirts and wait forthe little animals to run out.
And it's like, yeah, time to runout and it's like, yeah, time,
yeah, I mean, if it was natural.
And I mean any, do they do that?
Have you seen that?
Yeah, I mean, I have, I haveseen that.
But um, there's a verypredictable predator prey cycle
(39:07):
and relationship and ecologythat you study and you know prey
population goes up.
Predator population eats that.
So they're like cyclical right.
So the the lower, smaller preyanimal will increase and then
they'll be more bobcats got it.
But then there'll be so manybobcats and they'll have babies
(39:28):
and have a few successful years,but then they eat all the
squirrels and the rodents.
So then the squirrel and rodentpopulation drops, but then
shortly after that so will thebobcat population.
So they're very dependent oneach other.
But it's natural to see andthat increases and decreases.
so, um, any large animals gonnaget away, you know, okay, um,
(39:50):
specifically in the prescribedcontrol burns, um, oh, because
they're slow moving right, orlike a deer.
A deer is going to know what'sgoing on and run away.
But I would say as far asrodents, they'll probably get
under the ground.
No wonder.
I'm assuming lizards and snakeswould be able to get out of the
(40:10):
way, but I'm sure there's somecasualty of wildlife that's but
if it was happening, naturallyit would happen also.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
I just I think about that.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
I you know the whole idea of all the animals running
out of the forest part of, likeour controlled, prescribed burn
planning is that there's like,if there was a raptor nest,
right, so like as a biologist,I'm the biologist on the fire
that's like, hey, we have anactive nest here and so this
will be avoided, right, and sothen we would put a perimeter
(40:43):
around that active nest.
Or obviously, if we knew, uh,there was a den with coyote
babies or bobcat babies, likethat then would be avoided and
excluded from any prescribed orcontrolled burn.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Nice, nice.
So it really is.
I mean, it sounds to me likeevery all these details are
thought out and there'sobviously unavoidable things.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
At times, like you know, something gets missed, but
that's kind of the naturalcycle right If it was a natural
fire, it would probably haveconsequences Some you know bad
consequences on some wildlifepopulations.
But we try to thoroughly avoidthat.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Awesome Good fire.
I would never have really putthose two words together, but I
see now the important role thatfire plays in our forests and
other landscapes.
Fire is a part of nature, likerain.
It's an essential element ofthe Earth's ecosystem, one that
(41:46):
we must learn to respect andcoexist with, while creating
that balance between itspotential for destruction and
its role in renewal.
Thanks for listening.
You guys Take care of eachother.
Thank you.
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