June 28, 2024 • 44 mins
Can wildlife corridors save species from the brink of extinction amid the relentless pace of human development? Two Chicks and a Hoe brings you an eye-opening conversation with Dana Page, a wildlife biologist from the San Francisco Bay Area, who sheds light on the vital role these passageways play in preserving biodiversity. This episode explores how corridors are essential for the movement, genetic diversity, and survival of species such as caribou, wolves, mountain lions, and even salmon. Dana offers her expert insights into the fragmentation of habitats, illustrated vividly with the challenges faced by mountain lions in the Santa Cruz mountains.
Ever wondered how amphibians like the California newt survive their perilous migrations across busy roads? We discuss a striking example at Lexington Reservoir, where these newts brave Alma Road to reach their breeding grounds. Hear about the innovative measures being taken by local agencies to design safe crossings, including the intriguing concept of underground tunnels. Dana shares the engineering intricacies involved and the importance of considering species-specific behaviors.
From apex predators to pollinators, every species plays a crucial role in maintaining ecological balance. This episode delves into the interconnectedness of ecosystems and the cascading effects when key species are removed. The episode highlights the indispensable roles of mountain lions in regulating prey populations and how small creatures like salamanders contribute to soil health. The conversation also touches on practical conservation efforts, such as planting native milkweed for monarch butterflies and creating green roofs to support biodiversity.
Santa Cruz Puma Project
Building the Largest Wildlife Crossing in the World
26 Most Important Wildlife Crossings Across the Globe
Milkweed Resources – Milkweed Watch “Engaging Citizens in Science”
Coyote & Badger video
Interview with: Dana Page
Things that make you say "Wow"!
For more episodes and additional information visit the Two Chicks and a Hoe website and our Facebook page.
Big thanks to our Producer, Casey Kennedy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
The wildlife who share our planet with us have
had their habitatssystematically destroyed and
overtaken by human development.
Their natural ranges often spanmuch larger areas than national
parks, state parks or wildlifepreserves can provide.
Some animals like caribouwolves, birds, salmon and
(00:23):
elephants travel hundreds oreven thousands of miles
throughout their lives, andmaintaining safe, consistent
pathways for them to migrate hasbecome increasingly rare and
difficult.
Hey everybody, it's Vanessafrom Two Chicks and a Hoe, the
(00:55):
podcast that talks to amazingpeople doing great things in the
world.
Today we're talking aboutwildlife corridors, these vital
lifelines that piece togetherfragmented habitats, ensuring
the seamless movement ofcountless species across the
globe.
Imagine a world where animalsare confined to isolated pockets
of land, unable to roam freelyor access essential resources.
(01:19):
Wildlife corridors offer alifeline, allowing animals to
migrate, forage and find matesacross vast landscapes.
From elephants to coyotes,these corridors serve as busy
thoroughfares for a diversearray of creatures.
We dig deeper into wildlifecorridors, uncovering their
(02:04):
importance, who uses them andtheir role in the survival of
hundreds of species on ourplanet.
So today we're speaking withDana Page, san Francisco Bay
Area wildlife biologist, allabout these essential
passageways.
Welcome, dana, and thank youfor joining us today.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Pleasure to be speaking with you.
Excellent, thank you.
So you know, as I was talkingto you originally about the idea
and then, as I started to domore research on it, I had
pictured in my mind bridges youknow more about, like bridges
over freeways, that type ofthing.
And then the more I read whichit is that, but the more I read
about corridors, it was there'sa whole lot more to it, and
(02:53):
let's kind of talk today whatare these?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
corridors.
A corridor can be interpretedas a passageway, but most
importantly, a corridor is areasof land that wildlife, animals,
plants can move through.
So if you were to look at apopulated area such as this area
(03:19):
we are today, south SanFrancisco Bay, silicon Valley
you have all this development inthe center of this valley and
you have a mountain range to theWest, the Santa Cruz mountains,
and then you have all this areato the East.
So a corridor, in this sense,would be how is an animal going
(03:40):
to move through wild places?
Plants also are, are moving,maybe not as fast as an animal.
Right movement of land, um, foryou know, places for plants to
to populate and grow and spreadthrough wind or dispersal or
pollination, um, so I think acorridor, to put it simply, is
(04:02):
an area where things can movefreely and safely.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Because okay, so I think a really good example, you
just said it, we are in the SanFrancisco Bay Area, which is a
huge.
You know it's considered ahotspot, one of the most
important environmental hotspotsin the world, yeah, but I think
it probably has one of the mostdense populations in the world
as well.
So we're talking about lots ofdifferent wildlife species, like
(04:30):
you mentioned, anywhere frommammals to insects to plants,
and then this amazing amount ofhuman population that have moved
into these wild areas over theyears, and now you're having now
the animals.
My understanding is, theanimals are having a really hard
time now moving from one areato the next area and causing, of
(04:52):
course, a tremendous amount ofproblems for them as species.
Yes, seeing that they're having, they're struggling now moving
from area to area because thehabitats now become fragmented.
Yes, okay, so that's where thecorridors come in, correct,
exactly?
So tell me the different kindsof corridors that all these
(05:16):
various species use yes, so aexample and people can research
this.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
it's a very well-known project but it's a
project that was started byChris Wilmers.
He's a professor out of UCSanta Cruz.
He was my conservation biologyprofessor many years ago but he
started collaring the mountainlions of the Santa Cruz
mountains to see how they weremoving, of the Santa Cruz
mountains to see how they weremoving.
(05:45):
But if you look at the SantaCruz mountains, there's an ocean
on one side and then there'sdevelopment surrounding these
ocean or surrounding thesemountains.
So it's technically an Islandand in conservation biology you
study population dynamics andmovement and gene flow.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So he, the project, came to the realization that
because these mountain lionscannot move outside of this
island, this land island that'sbecome an island from
development, from humans.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Right, it's all, it's all, it's, it's all.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
It's surrounded by people, exactly it's surrounded
by people and development andthe ocean on the other side.
But technically, thispopulation of mountain lions, it
will be genetically they callit genetically extinct in the
next 50 to a hundred yearsbecause of genetic inbreeding.
So there's no inflow or outflowof different genetics from other
(06:45):
populations.
So they started to color themountain lions and figure out
where they were trying to crossso that there could be crossings
and areas, because on highway17 there's a lot of lion kills.
You know, animals are trying toget across our freeways and our
roads and through thesedeveloped areas.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So it really is kind of like the chicken to get to
the other side.
Yeah, they're trying to get tothe other side.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
For what so dispersal ?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I mean because they're tired of living on the
island by themselves.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, Well, and it's a natural thing that you know
family of mountain lions.
The males will disperse andhave a larger range and the
females will stay within theirarea and so males have a larger
range.
So you have a lot of the malesthat they were finding in
neighborhoods and causing issuesare generally juvenile males
(07:38):
that are seeking out newterritory for themselves, but
then they either get hit by acar because they're trying to
cross, or they just end up inpalo alto, right.
So people are like aneighborhood and a neighborhood
yeah, exactly, and so thesecorridors don't have to be
bridges.
Specifically, the one they'reworking on on 17 is going to be
(07:59):
an underpassing that they'reputting in it's not going to be
um a bridge, it's going to gounder the freeway.
So yeah, these corridors arefor dispersal, primarily for
larger mammals okay, so.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
So let's get this really under an understanding of
this.
The mountain lion is movingaway from its its birth area
birth area, because that's one,it's a natural thing to.
It's time for us to maybepotentially find its own mate
and its own, its own people sonot people, but its own tribe
and it's moving to a differentarea.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
It's territorial, so it's going to go over the
freeway, walk over the freeway,and we've seen the results of
that or it's going to go throughthis like a conduit right, yes,
like a tube, yeah, and so thepart of the puma project was
collaring them to see wherewater flows downhill easiest
(08:54):
ways, to where the mountainlions naturally go into, where
they would make sense for themto cross, and then that's where
that corridor or crossing, orunder crossing or over crossing
will exist, because that's wherethey see them naturally wanting
to move.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So this is where this is the understanding to the
tracking of all these animals tounderstand their natural flow,
yes, and then not maybe forcedand put a conduit or a bridge
over an area that they wouldnever go to yeah, which would be
pointless got it, got it and isthis project complete?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
um, the project is funded and funding's been
approved, and it's not completeyet, but in the building stages,
okay, and the very nearbuilding stages, yes so then
would that change the the thestatement you made earlier about
(09:46):
them going extinct in thisgenetic line going extinct?
Well, and so that's whatbiologists, conservation
biologists, wildlife ecologistsare hoping that then you get
genetics flowing out but also in, and then to prevent that.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So you have animals leaving and animals coming in?
Yes, got it.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Okay, got it.
So there's movement and so themost important thing is to get
them over to the Gavilan range,kind of in the South Bay, and
then eventually beyond that.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Okay, so tell me the other purposes of building a
corridor.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Well, and I think, or let me clarify that, because I
think let's go back to the ideaof corridors, yes and what they
are, yes and so specificallylooking at that project, it's an
undercrossing, okay, you seeprojects all over the world,
world over crossings, but Ithink a corridor isn't something
(10:47):
as specific as that pinch point.
But a lot of what land agenciesare doing is selecting
purchases and looking at a moreregional approach to
coordinating with groups.
You know so all of the landagencies within the bay area,
non-profits, save the redwoodspost, open space authority,
(11:12):
santa clara, county parks, stateparks.
What land can we buy betweenour lands that are then going to
be protected in perpetuity sothat these animals they don't
have a pinch point, because thepinch point's probably like last
resort?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
right, you don't want them for yeah, exactly so scary
place to go it.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, yeah, and so I think, uh, coyote valley was
just a pretty big purchase thathappened with the habitat agency
and so as silicon valleyexpands and people want to grow
more, it's kind of this landgrab of uh, can we get it before
the developers.
So a lot of the property thatland agencies are getting is
(11:57):
land that people bought fordevelopment.
Um, that, um, for whateverreason.
You know, it's funny how a lotof times economic, poor,
economic times do really benefitwildlife, and what agencies
instead of development, yes,instead of development, so kind
of.
Because of this lull in buildingafter covid, a lot of
(12:20):
properties are coming availablefor cheaper than anticipated.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
But also everyone that's involved in, at least in
the San Francisco Bay Area andhopefully other areas throughout
the world.
You can get this larger networkof connectivity and connection
through being strategic aboutyour purchases and what is
protected.
So you're saying that all theseparcels of land are becoming
connected now, meaning that it'sland and land and land, making
a seamless corridor of wild areafor the animals to move through
, or the, you know, the birds,the insects, everything to move
through.
You can hear how important thewildlife corridors are, and they
certainly come in various forms, far more than the bridge, the
(13:13):
idea of the bridge that I hadinitially imagined.
Wildlife corridors arethankfully popping up across the
globe and, as we continue theconversation with Dana, I want
to highlight what are beingconsidered some of the top
corridors of the world.
On our website,2chicksandahoeorg, I have a link
to what are being consideredthe 26 most important, but one
(13:37):
of them it's called the Tira,and I hope I'm saying that right
.
The Tira Arc Landscape landscapeis a narrow subtropical
wildlife corridor between Indiaand Nepal, crossing 11 protected
areas.
Grasslands, forests, rivervalleys are all home to rare and
threatened species, such as theAsian elephant, the Indian
(14:00):
rhinoceros and the Bengal tiger,all of these animals and so
many more are using thisimportant corridor, and and when
I say insects too, I mean Idon't see like a herd of you
know, grasshoppers going forward, like in the big migration of
the grasshopper kind of a thing.
But I understand too, forexample, checkerspot butterflies
(14:22):
, which are indigenous to thisarea, monarch butterflies, of
course, the most popularbutterfly the whole idea of
creating areas for these insectsto stop as they're on their
migration to their destination.
For butterflies or monarchs,it's potentially parts, parts of
(14:42):
mexico, for, yeah, for theirannual migration yeah, so that's
a great way to explain.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
When I talked about corridors and this connectivity,
and you know the charismaticmacro fauna like a bobcat or a
mountain lion, it's prettyobvious and that's why I also
referred to it for plants,because plants are important for
these insects right so if youdon't have conserved land that
has these special plants, thatspecifically the bay, the san
(15:14):
francisco bay checker spottedbutterfly, needs specific larval
hosts.
Okay, so plants that it needsto eat in order for the larvae
to be successful, to becomeadults, right.
And there's no huge migration ofthe San Francisco Bay checkers
butterfly, but it needs to beable to have these larval hosts.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
These are historical migrations.
Yeah, well, and then?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
like the monarch butterflies, historic huge
migration.
You know mexico, all the way uphere, and so thinking about
milkweed, right, one of their,that's one of their hosts, but
they need, you know, many plants, but yeah, so just having these
connected areas where thesebutterflies, insects, can move
(16:01):
freely and go from plant toplant, because obviously they
can fly, but if they're flyingthrough a city, where are they
going to stop and rest or eat orall of those things?
So yeah, so it's easy to talkabout mammals, but the plants
are equally important, and thenthe insects that come along with
(16:22):
those plants.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I thought this was a good spot to tell you all about
the Bee Highway in Oslo, norway.
The citizens there have createdthe world's first highway
designed for bees.
The city doesn't have enoughurban parks, which means they
have reduced amount of plantsfor pollinators like bees, so
all citizens are called on tocontribute by planting flowers,
(16:48):
plants and by creating housesfor insects in order for them to
provide shelter and food alongthe city's arteries for the bees
and the pollinators.
What about amphibians?
Because I heard you.
I heard a, a conversation, apresentation that you gave you,
and you spoke specifically.
I think it was about californianewts.
(17:08):
Yes, so tell me about amphibiancrossings or, I guess, the use,
how the amphibians use theseparticular types of corridors
yeah, and so amphibians aren't.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
So amphibians aren't migrating at a scale that those
monarch butterflies are, butthey are crossing to get to the
things that they need within thelandscape, which generally.
We talked a little bit aboutthe California newt and all
amphibians need to go to waterand some of them are breeding in
(17:46):
the water.
Some of them need to stay moist.
They're going from waterhabitats and moving to upland
habitats in the non-wet seasonto forage to live.
So with the corridors, I thinkwith amphibians, a huge thing is
roads and traffic and vehicleson roads, and so if you looked
(18:10):
at a map of the land, you knowpretty much all bodies of water
have a road around them.
So, a project I talked about inthat presentation was at
Lexington Reservoir and thenewts that are coming off that
hillside.
There's some mountains aboveLexington Reservoir and the
newts that are coming off thathillside.
There's some mountains aboveLexington Reservoir and then you
(18:30):
have Alma Road and so all thesenewts are trying to cross that
road to get to the reservoir andthey like to migrate during the
wet season and on Highway 17,.
So back to Highway 17, busyroad for people commuting from
Santa Cruz over to SiliconValley, and then it rains,
there's accidents, so a lot ofpeople will reroute when there's
(18:53):
accidents during the rainyseason, onto this Alma Road to
circumvent the traffic on 17.
To circumvent the traffic on 17.
So a concerned citizen thathikes out there frequently
brought it to all the localagencies' attention that there's
a significant new mortalityhappening on the road as the
newts cross the road to get tothe other side, to get to water,
(19:18):
and they were concerned becauseyou could physically see all
the animals.
So, um, a few agencies havegotten together to study that
mortality and now they'reworking on developing, uh, a
crossing which isn't necessarilya corridor but more of a
crossing.
What kind of crossing?
(19:38):
Um?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
there, that was a like, a like a school crossing
guard.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, there's no new crossing guard, but, same as the
mountain lions, I think whenyou study how they're moving,
the majority of them areprobably moving within the same
areas of the road where watertraverses the road where there's
part of the watershed that getslow, and maybe there used to be
a creek that ran in, so they'restill taking these routes.
(20:07):
So these crossings are stillbeing engineered.
There's a lot of people tryingto develop different kinds of
crossings that are suitable foramphibians.
A lot of work has been done upin Sonoma for the California
tiger salamander Okay.
A lot of work has been done upin Sonoma for the California
tiger salamander Okay.
That's an endangered salamanderspecies and in areas of
development they're requiringmitigation for people to put in
(20:31):
these crossings.
So a lot of them do gounderground and it would just be
like a tunnel underground Right.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So it's a tunnel, which kind of makes sense, yeah,
for amphibians, for amphibiansexactly exactly wow so, but,
it's still kind of unknown thesuccess rate of a lot of these
engineered.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
What's the best thing ?
I'm sure every species kind ofhas a different preference, you
know, and if you were asalamander would you want to go
into a black, endless hole youknow.
So I think some animals arepretty cautious but there's some
burr, some structures that theycan put up to kind of funnel
(21:13):
them.
Think of it as a funnel, sosalamanders can go straight up,
so they'll kind of put.
So they have to go through yeah,so they'll kind of be able to
capture the migration of ahundred foot area and they'll
kind of just naturally follow awall until they can get through
right and then.
So they'll follow that wall andbe funneled to this tunnel and
(21:34):
then be able to get to thereservoir safely without getting
run over.
Oh, that's awesome.
Yeah, that's awesome, so thatspecific project is still in the
planning stages that has notbeen executed yet.
Okay, so they're looking atdesign ideas currently.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I'm curious if you have heard of any type of
predation on the other side ofthat tunnel.
You know?
I have this vision of everybodyusing that tunnel.
And then you have the predatorsgoing.
This is awesome.
Hey, you got to come over hereduring this week because you
should see all the freebiescoming through the tunnel.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I'm just curious.
Yeah well, it would make sense.
The unique thing about theCalifornia newt is it's actually
poisonous.
Oh, so it actually has atetratoxin and so it's evolved
to have this poison, so itdoesn't have many predators.
Yeah, yeah.
(22:33):
And so I think one of the onlyknown predators of it is a
garter snake, who has evolvedwith it and has built up a
tolerance to the poison.
So the garter snakes will eatthem.
But once they eat them theybecome very lethargic after and
it takes them, you know, itslows them down, right right.
(22:55):
So there's some folk, folktales of, uh, you know, people
camping and the newt gettinginto their kettle and then
drinking it and dying from.
I don't know if that's valid,yeah, or just folklore or truth?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
but so specifically newts.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Just as California newt has that poison, but other
salamanders I'm sure would useit.
Other amphibians, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
So you brought up snakes I'm thinking everybody is
snakes would use at otheramphibians.
Yeah, so you brought up snakes,I'm thinking everybody is
snakes would use these as well.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
These over-underpasses, and I think
it's hard to get a catch-all foreverything, and so that's why I
think future generations,future planners, have to really
think about roads.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
So, as Dana pointed out with the amphibian crossings
, not all animal crossings aredesigned for large mammals or
even for mammals.
The annual migration route ofmillions of crabs on Christmas
Island crosses roads, golfcourses and beaches.
The crabs live deep in theisland's forests, but migrate en
(24:03):
masse to the ocean to breed andlay eggs each year.
To help facilitate this massmigration, more than 20
kilometers of barriers are putinto place to direct the crabs
away from the roads and into the31 crab underpasses.
There's also a five meter highcrab bridge crossing at one of
(24:24):
the area's busiest roads.
So I know that there's laws inplace that won't allow
developers to build you know, todevelop so close to a creek or
a waterway and they have to stayso many feet away from it.
Is it the same thing that'shappening with roadways?
In terms of, yeah, are thesethings being considered?
(24:45):
Are animal migration pathsbeing considered when they're
thinking about putting in newroadways?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Well, I don't think they have been until recently.
Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Right, so I think there's hope.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
But a lot of the roads you see were historic
roads.
Right, right, right, right,everything easiest path water,
humans, animals.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Right right, and it probably didn't have as much
impact as it does now because ofthe exploding population.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, exactly.
So I think that's a huge thing.
But there's large snakemortality on roads also because
they like the heat of the roadin the summer.
So, as a you know, a biologist,I have a very keen eye for a
(25:34):
search image.
So I'm driving and you know Ibreak for newts.
I break for newts and I swim forsnakes Very good, I love it,
and so you do see a lot of snakemortality in the road as well.
So I think it's because of thepopulation boom.
It's a bigger problem andconservation biologists are
realizing the problem that thespecies are dealing with because
(25:59):
of the traffic on roads and theanimals are also attracted to
the roads the snakes for heatand other animals just trying to
move across the road right,right yeah because of historical
migration paths yeah, and Imean animals probably just went
everywhere before and then youget so many roads right how are
they gonna, how are they evergonna avoid a road?
Speaker 1 (26:26):
many roads right.
How are they gonna?
How are they?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
ever gonna avoid a road?
Speaker 1 (26:28):
well, yeah, so who?
Who's using all of these?
I mean, I know you've alreadysaid you know the amphibians and
uh, and mountain lions, butwe're talking about bears and
bobcats and all the theungulates, all the deer and what
have you?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
everybody's using these, right yeah, um, there's a
uh.
The video that went viral ofthe badger and the coyote going
through together right yeah,going through together.
So that's amazing.
They're being built forprobably some specific animals
that we're concerned with, andthat's kind of been an approach
(27:03):
of many conservation biologists.
Uh, you call it an umbrellaspecies, right, so you conserve
something for this one speciesthat's endangered, but then it
will protect all these otherthings as a result of that.
So bobcats are using um, thebadger, the coyote bears if we
(27:25):
had them.
So just another place foranimals to move through.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Wow, together, if they have to.
Dana mentioned bears, and BanffNational Park in Canada is home
to bridges specifically createdfor animals.
The passages, 10 to 16 meterswide and covered by local fauna,
aim to induce the animals, suchas deer, moose and bears, to
(27:51):
cross the bridges, rather thanthe heavily trafficked
Trans-Canada Highway.
To date, conservationists havedocumented more than 140,000
animals crossing the highway,either using the bridges or the
underpasses.
Yeah, wow, so, in theimportance of these.
(28:11):
So I've written just a coupleof things down.
Safe passage, of course, youknow, to get in, to get to the
other side, whether it's underor over Historical migrations.
You, you know, that's the waythey've always gone.
They need to get there for acertain reason.
Uh, and you talked about thewhole connecting habitats, which
makes sense because it wasalways a one habitat that got
(28:35):
fragmented, okay, and then, uh,these genetic islands can.
Can you, you know thisisolation.
Can you explain that a littlebit further?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah, so I'm trying to think of maybe a good example
outside of the mountain lions,but so it's just.
It's genetic isolation, where,if an animal can't move out of
this terrestrial island, right,so we're not talking birds and
(29:06):
stuff.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, because they can fly.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Because they can fly yeah, um, so I'm trying to think
.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
So, I guess, more importantly so.
So what?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
why does it matter?
Why does it matter?
Speaker 1 (29:21):
why does it matter that they that that, so they,
it's a good population, it's anice, healthy population.
Why does it matter that it'sthere's a genetic isolation
going on there?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
yeah, so the genetic isolation leads to inbreeding,
which leads to extinctions okayand so I think that's what,
that's the bottom line, that'sthe bottom line and the
ecosystem services that afunctioning ecosystem provide.
When you take a predator out,like if you took the mountain
(29:52):
lions out of the Santa Cruzmountains, then what happens to
the deer population?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Oh, what's going to happen to your garden and all
the vegetation that iscontrolled because the mountain
lion's eating the deers that arenot eating all those plants, so
the apex predator then is lost,and then the prey populations
explode exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
And so there's, the balance is totally off I'm
trying to think of the word thatthey use trickle down or triple
up effects.
Yes, right, so you get rid ofthe apex predator, and then you
have too many deers, and thenyou have more vegetation, and
then you have complete shifts inecosystems based and changes in
ecosystem composition right,right.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
so it not only affects, of course, the animal
populations, it's plantpopulations and the insects, and
it goes on and on and on.
All species are affected bythis type of situation.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yes, yeah, got it, and so there's control from the
top, from the apex, predatorsand the predators, but there's
also bottom up control.
So the alternate to that whicha lot of people don't think
about is those amphibians andthose salamanders.
And so think about what asalamander eats.
(31:09):
A salamander eats sow, bugs,insects, all these things that
are in that leaf, litter in thatrich soil.
So salamanders are having aneffect on the composition of the
soil, invertebrates that arethen having an effect on the
(31:30):
decomposition rate, right?
So if you have, too many bugs.
So if you don't have salamanders, yes, right then there's no one
eating all the bugs, so thenthe bugs are decomposing the
leaf litter quicker and thenpotentially like increasing all
the decomposition and notstoring carbon in the soil as
(31:52):
fast as carbon would be stored,because then things are
decomposing at a faster ratewhere carbon storage which,
right, that's a whole nothergreat conversation of carbon
being stored in ecosystems, inforest ecosystems, down within
the soil, wow.
So it definitely is allintertwined in this very
(32:17):
interesting way where it's easyto think about a mountain lion
and deer, but think abouteverything, and then to cross
those two together.
Then you have the mountain liongoes extinct and then the deers
are eating too much, and thenyou don't have the plants that
were in the soil, right.
So once you start changingthose vegetation communities, it
(32:39):
has an effect on what's goinginto the soil and decomposing
and what those nutrients aregoing to be, right.
So maybe you don't have as manyplants as you once had, so then
your soil soils not as lush, sothen you're storing no carbon.
So there's obviously all sortsof scenarios that can kind of
branch off of these veryintricate relationships and how
(33:01):
predators and prey and insectsand everything interacts.
Wow, that's awesome, yeah, yeah,wow.
So I think you know the averageperson and I like how you frame
that question of well, why doesit matter?
And I think a lot of peoplemaybe.
(33:21):
Well, why, what is theimportance of my life and having
a functioning grassland or afunctioning ecosystem out there?
But that's contrary to maybeyour.
You know your Amazon deliveryor your food getting delivered
or however people choose to livetheir lives, but that is all.
(33:42):
You need a functioningecosystem, right To have clean
water, to have clean air, tohave the food that we provide,
to have clean water, to haveclean air, to have the food that
we provide.
So it's many lengths away froma city dweller's mind, right,
but without that humans couldnot.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
We don't have a chance.
Yeah, we don't have a chance,thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yes, wow, all right.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
so with that being, said we as humans, what can we
do to help the wildlife aroundus?
And I'm going to use the easyexample.
The hard stuff is for you, okay, but the easy example about
planting milkweed, okay.
So years ago, as some of mylisteners know, I worked at a
(34:29):
local institution here in theBay Area and we were really big
into and it's this is still cooland I hope that this is still
happening.
I'm not seeing as much of it.
The green roofs and the idea isnot just about.
You know, throw some grass upthere.
It was about really specificplants that were picked for
species, again creating a path,you know, from upper north, you
(34:53):
know san francisco area, so thatthey could come down.
I'm talking specifically aboutcheckerspot butterflies, but we,
we pick plants specifically toprovide food for them on their
journeys, so I can see where, inmonarch butterflies, of course,
milkweed, milkweed, milkweed,milkweed I get that.
So you're providing restingspots and food for these
(35:17):
creatures as they move alongtheir life, their pathways.
Okay, I got the easy ones andnow you're up.
So okay, so planting milkweedfor monarch butterflies?
Yay, and I okay.
Okay, let me do another easyone too Planting native plants
or planning food for pollinators, and, and I I'm not a native
plant purist.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
I'm so sorry, but I think native plants are awesome.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
But I mean, I think, if you're planning, you know
mediterranean, if you'replanning plants that are well
suited for the area you know andyour water usage, the, the heat
and what have you, and you'reproviding food for lots of
different pollinators, because,of course, we have European
honeybees here, not a nativespecies, but as critically
important.
So, but being to provide foodfor all the pollinators, the
(36:03):
birds, the insects, you know allof that.
Okay, so I got that.
So that's, I think, somethingthat we can all do.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, europe, europe, all of that, okay, so I got
that.
So that's, I think, somethingthat we can all do.
Yeah, europe, well, there isstill a great organization.
There's an organization I reachout to called milkweed watch.
Okay, and you can ordermilkweed from them and they will
give you a local, uh, varietyfrom where you are and mail it
(36:30):
to your house, nice.
So, yeah, there's still.
There's still lots of stuffhappening.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
You can even.
There's a thing called Save theMonarch that I gave away
milkweed seed packets for.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Halloween.
Oh yeah, oh, that's right, yeah, so the kids, they love it.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, they loved it.
So that was just another way toget seeds out there.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, so I think what can people do?
And so we we talked about alittle in the class that we met
but become involved in yourlocal community and planning and
yes, working through variousagencies throughout my career-
we have a very strict processfor public comment and for
(37:15):
people to come and be involvedin one.
We're doing review of theselarger projects and planning and
people are planning buildingsand roads.
There generally is always aforum for people to come and ask
questions and bring up theirconcerns and bring up their
concerns.
(37:35):
So I know in this busy worldthat we're all living in, you
think, well, how can I have time?
But I think to like, pick yourbattle Absolutely Right.
It can get overwhelming.
And you know, as a passionatebiologist and growing up you
know you're like, oh, I want tochange all these things and I
(37:56):
want to make the world a betterplace.
And then you kind of realizeyou can't fix all of it.
But I feel like if everybodypicks what they're passionate
about and fights that battle,then cumulatively it can it can
have a big impact.
So I would say, reach out tolocal government officials that
are making these bigger plans,because you have a voice.
(38:19):
Yeah, you do have a voice andsometimes we have comment
periods on projects that we'redoing and there's certain
nonprofits that are very vocalbut sometimes there's no
comments, right.
So I think people kind ofunderstanding and reaching out
to your local government andfiguring out what development's
(38:43):
happening and really let themknow.
But I think community outreachis pretty important and just
being involved in your localcommunity.
So if you live in aneighborhood that has a fence
that animals cannot get through,if animals are crossing the
road in your neighborhood, can araccoon get under your fence,
(39:06):
right?
Are they going to have to goover your fence?
Maybe a salamander can't getthrough your fence because it's
into the ground, right?
So kind of these more simplethings.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
So it's actually about taking a look around at
your own lifestyle in your ownsanctuary so to speak to see if
you can make it easier for them.
Yeah, Okay, yeah, Okay, yeah.
I think the first thing thatcame to my mind was.
So I live in a neighborhood, asuburban area, and I have
(39:40):
fencing around my backyard andit is a freeway.
The fencing is a freeway andthere's possums on there and
skunks and all kinds of guysmoving through yeah, and it's
years ago.
We put ramps on our fence sothat the animals could go up and
down.
I know that's, too, a more ofan extreme.
(40:02):
Yeah, some people don't wantthose animals in their yard, but
I do, because they eat thesnails and all the you know, the
things that eat my garden, kindof thing.
So there's that balance, butdefinitely, I mean they are.
I think it's a really goodpoint, dana.
These animals are in ourneighborhoods, these animals are
living with us.
We may not see them, butthey're there, and to be able to
(40:25):
give them a little bit easier,yeah, so another thing to maybe
to think at.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And another thing would be support the local.
You know the local open spacenext to where you live or your.
You know whether you're goingto Yosemite or these bigger
things, but there's a lot ofpark systems throughout the Bay
area.
Land agencies they are offeringvolunteer events.
(40:54):
Right, you know, go out andpull a non-native species, right
, right, and so there's.
There's a lot of volunteeractivities that I think people
can get involved in.
Support land agencies andpreserving more open space, and
I think specifically here thatI'm familiar with in Santa Clara
County.
You know there's funds and lawsthat were passed that tax
(41:20):
dollars are supportingacquisitions of more properties
Excellent.
So being involved politicallyand voting it's a critical time,
right, I guess it's a good timeto talk about voting.
That's right, as we're in animportant voting year, but
there's voting every single year, but just when there's
(41:41):
propositions and things on theballot, so that taxes can go to
these agencies that will beacquiring more land or managing
these lands, I think that's alsosupporting them, supporting
them, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
So there's a lot of things that we can all do, and
it may not necessarily behelping that mountain lion get
across the road.
That kind of a thing, that'syour guys' job which I love.
Yeah, but there are all of thesethings, and on our website
we're going to post severalwebsites that people can go to
to look for more information onefor the agencies that are doing
this kind of work there andthere's a lot here in the bay
(42:19):
area, thankfully but also twoother things that you could
potentially do.
You know way, maybe, where toget monarch butterfly seed.
You know milkweed seeds thatkind of thing.
So yeah, we'll post someinformation up there if you want
to get more involved.
But I think that's a reallygood point.
You can be involved, pickwhatever, yeah, balance in your
life, those types of things, butthere are.
You can go full board or youcan do all those beautiful,
(42:42):
sweet little things.
Yeah, there are things that wecan all do.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
There's uh, the cumulative effect absolutely
exponential if we all, we allpick our battles.
The butterfly effect.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
The butterfly effect.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Yes, awesome, awesome .
Thank you so much for your timeand your knowledge.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, it was great talking with you about this and
I think we're at the beginning.
I think, specifically at leastin this region of the San
Francisco Bay, there's going tobe a huge push in the next
decade.
Excellent for a lot more ofthese corridors and studies on
this wildlife and ensuring thatthey have a place to go and that
(43:26):
they're coexisting with us, andso I would say great for the
people before us that saw theforesight of protecting lands.
Yes yes, and I'm super gratefulto be living, you know, in a
place where that's possible andthat you know we're a society
(43:47):
that values that.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yes, agreed.
Thank you so much.
I loved chatting with Dana andgot a better understanding of
how important these corridorsare, whether for mountain lions
or newts, the connection is kindof like a web.
You know.
They have tunnels and bridgesand green belts that connect one
(44:08):
thing to the next thing andthey ensure safe and thriving
passage for animals, insects andthen plants as well.
We'll have links at the TwoChicks and a Whole website where
you can get more information,resources and watch the
wonderful video of the coyoteand the badger using one of the
(44:29):
underpasses here in the SanFrancisco Bay Area.
Thanks for listening, you guys,and take care of each other,
thank you.
The wildlife who share our planet with us have
had their habitatssystematically destroyed and
overtaken by human development.
Their natural ranges often spanmuch larger areas than national
parks, state parks or wildlifepreserves can provide.
Some animals like caribouwolves, birds, salmon and
(00:23):
elephants travel hundreds oreven thousands of miles
throughout their lives, andmaintaining safe, consistent
pathways for them to migrate hasbecome increasingly rare and
difficult.
Hey everybody, it's Vanessafrom Two Chicks and a Hoe, the
(00:55):
podcast that talks to amazingpeople doing great things in the
world.
Today we're talking aboutwildlife corridors, these vital
lifelines that piece togetherfragmented habitats, ensuring
the seamless movement ofcountless species across the
globe.
Imagine a world where animalsare confined to isolated pockets
of land, unable to roam freelyor access essential resources.
(01:19):
Wildlife corridors offer alifeline, allowing animals to
migrate, forage and find matesacross vast landscapes.
From elephants to coyotes,these corridors serve as busy
thoroughfares for a diversearray of creatures.
We dig deeper into wildlifecorridors, uncovering their
(02:04):
importance, who uses them andtheir role in the survival of
hundreds of species on ourplanet.
So today we're speaking withDana Page, san Francisco Bay
Area wildlife biologist, allabout these essential
passageways.
Welcome, dana, and thank youfor joining us today.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Pleasure to be speaking with you.
Excellent, thank you.
So you know, as I was talkingto you originally about the idea
and then, as I started to domore research on it, I had
pictured in my mind bridges youknow more about, like bridges
over freeways, that type ofthing.
And then the more I read whichit is that, but the more I read
about corridors, it was there'sa whole lot more to it, and
(02:53):
let's kind of talk today whatare these?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
corridors.
A corridor can be interpretedas a passageway, but most
importantly, a corridor is areasof land that wildlife, animals,
plants can move through.
So if you were to look at apopulated area such as this area
(03:19):
we are today, south SanFrancisco Bay, silicon Valley
you have all this development inthe center of this valley and
you have a mountain range to theWest, the Santa Cruz mountains,
and then you have all this areato the East.
So a corridor, in this sense,would be how is an animal going
(03:40):
to move through wild places?
Plants also are, are moving,maybe not as fast as an animal.
Right movement of land, um, foryou know, places for plants to
to populate and grow and spreadthrough wind or dispersal or
pollination, um, so I think acorridor, to put it simply, is
(04:02):
an area where things can movefreely and safely.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Because okay, so I think a really good example, you
just said it, we are in the SanFrancisco Bay Area, which is a
huge.
You know it's considered ahotspot, one of the most
important environmental hotspotsin the world, yeah, but I think
it probably has one of the mostdense populations in the world
as well.
So we're talking about lots ofdifferent wildlife species, like
(04:30):
you mentioned, anywhere frommammals to insects to plants,
and then this amazing amount ofhuman population that have moved
into these wild areas over theyears, and now you're having now
the animals.
My understanding is, theanimals are having a really hard
time now moving from one areato the next area and causing, of
(04:52):
course, a tremendous amount ofproblems for them as species.
Yes, seeing that they're having, they're struggling now moving
from area to area because thehabitats now become fragmented.
Yes, okay, so that's where thecorridors come in, correct,
exactly?
So tell me the different kindsof corridors that all these
(05:16):
various species use yes, so aexample and people can research
this.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
it's a very well-known project but it's a
project that was started byChris Wilmers.
He's a professor out of UCSanta Cruz.
He was my conservation biologyprofessor many years ago but he
started collaring the mountainlions of the Santa Cruz
mountains to see how they weremoving, of the Santa Cruz
mountains to see how they weremoving.
(05:45):
But if you look at the SantaCruz mountains, there's an ocean
on one side and then there'sdevelopment surrounding these
ocean or surrounding thesemountains.
So it's technically an Islandand in conservation biology you
study population dynamics andmovement and gene flow.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So he, the project, came to the realization that
because these mountain lionscannot move outside of this
island, this land island that'sbecome an island from
development, from humans.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Right, it's all, it's all, it's, it's all.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
It's surrounded by people, exactly it's surrounded
by people and development andthe ocean on the other side.
But technically, thispopulation of mountain lions, it
will be genetically they callit genetically extinct in the
next 50 to a hundred yearsbecause of genetic inbreeding.
So there's no inflow or outflowof different genetics from other
(06:45):
populations.
So they started to color themountain lions and figure out
where they were trying to crossso that there could be crossings
and areas, because on highway17 there's a lot of lion kills.
You know, animals are trying toget across our freeways and our
roads and through thesedeveloped areas.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So it really is kind of like the chicken to get to
the other side.
Yeah, they're trying to get tothe other side.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
For what so dispersal ?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I mean because they're tired of living on the
island by themselves.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, Well, and it's a natural thing that you know
family of mountain lions.
The males will disperse andhave a larger range and the
females will stay within theirarea and so males have a larger
range.
So you have a lot of the malesthat they were finding in
neighborhoods and causing issuesare generally juvenile males
(07:38):
that are seeking out newterritory for themselves, but
then they either get hit by acar because they're trying to
cross, or they just end up inpalo alto, right.
So people are like aneighborhood and a neighborhood
yeah, exactly, and so thesecorridors don't have to be
bridges.
Specifically, the one they'reworking on on 17 is going to be
(07:59):
an underpassing that they'reputting in it's not going to be
um a bridge, it's going to gounder the freeway.
So yeah, these corridors arefor dispersal, primarily for
larger mammals okay, so.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
So let's get this really under an understanding of
this.
The mountain lion is movingaway from its its birth area
birth area, because that's one,it's a natural thing to.
It's time for us to maybepotentially find its own mate
and its own, its own people sonot people, but its own tribe
and it's moving to a differentarea.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
It's territorial, so it's going to go over the
freeway, walk over the freeway,and we've seen the results of
that or it's going to go throughthis like a conduit right, yes,
like a tube, yeah, and so thepart of the puma project was
collaring them to see wherewater flows downhill easiest
(08:54):
ways, to where the mountainlions naturally go into, where
they would make sense for themto cross, and then that's where
that corridor or crossing, orunder crossing or over crossing
will exist, because that's wherethey see them naturally wanting
to move.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So this is where this is the understanding to the
tracking of all these animals tounderstand their natural flow,
yes, and then not maybe forcedand put a conduit or a bridge
over an area that they wouldnever go to yeah, which would be
pointless got it, got it and isthis project complete?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
um, the project is funded and funding's been
approved, and it's not completeyet, but in the building stages,
okay, and the very nearbuilding stages, yes so then
would that change the the thestatement you made earlier about
(09:46):
them going extinct in thisgenetic line going extinct?
Well, and so that's whatbiologists, conservation
biologists, wildlife ecologistsare hoping that then you get
genetics flowing out but also in, and then to prevent that.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So you have animals leaving and animals coming in?
Yes, got it.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Okay, got it.
So there's movement and so themost important thing is to get
them over to the Gavilan range,kind of in the South Bay, and
then eventually beyond that.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Okay, so tell me the other purposes of building a
corridor.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Well, and I think, or let me clarify that, because I
think let's go back to the ideaof corridors, yes and what they
are, yes and so specificallylooking at that project, it's an
undercrossing, okay, you seeprojects all over the world,
world over crossings, but Ithink a corridor isn't something
(10:47):
as specific as that pinch point.
But a lot of what land agenciesare doing is selecting
purchases and looking at a moreregional approach to
coordinating with groups.
You know so all of the landagencies within the bay area,
non-profits, save the redwoodspost, open space authority,
(11:12):
santa clara, county parks, stateparks.
What land can we buy betweenour lands that are then going to
be protected in perpetuity sothat these animals they don't
have a pinch point, because thepinch point's probably like last
resort?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
right, you don't want them for yeah, exactly so scary
place to go it.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, yeah, and so I think, uh, coyote valley was
just a pretty big purchase thathappened with the habitat agency
and so as silicon valleyexpands and people want to grow
more, it's kind of this landgrab of uh, can we get it before
the developers.
So a lot of the property thatland agencies are getting is
(11:57):
land that people bought fordevelopment.
Um, that, um, for whateverreason.
You know, it's funny how a lotof times economic, poor,
economic times do really benefitwildlife, and what agencies
instead of development, yes,instead of development, so kind
of.
Because of this lull in buildingafter covid, a lot of
(12:20):
properties are coming availablefor cheaper than anticipated.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
But also everyone that's involved in, at least in
the San Francisco Bay Area andhopefully other areas throughout
the world.
You can get this larger networkof connectivity and connection
through being strategic aboutyour purchases and what is
protected.
So you're saying that all theseparcels of land are becoming
connected now, meaning that it'sland and land and land, making
a seamless corridor of wild areafor the animals to move through
, or the, you know, the birds,the insects, everything to move
through.
You can hear how important thewildlife corridors are, and they
certainly come in various forms, far more than the bridge, the
(13:13):
idea of the bridge that I hadinitially imagined.
Wildlife corridors arethankfully popping up across the
globe and, as we continue theconversation with Dana, I want
to highlight what are beingconsidered some of the top
corridors of the world.
On our website,2chicksandahoeorg, I have a link
to what are being consideredthe 26 most important, but one
(13:37):
of them it's called the Tira,and I hope I'm saying that right
.
The Tira Arc Landscape landscapeis a narrow subtropical
wildlife corridor between Indiaand Nepal, crossing 11 protected
areas.
Grasslands, forests, rivervalleys are all home to rare and
threatened species, such as theAsian elephant, the Indian
(14:00):
rhinoceros and the Bengal tiger,all of these animals and so
many more are using thisimportant corridor, and and when
I say insects too, I mean Idon't see like a herd of you
know, grasshoppers going forward, like in the big migration of
the grasshopper kind of a thing.
But I understand too, forexample, checkerspot butterflies
(14:22):
, which are indigenous to thisarea, monarch butterflies, of
course, the most popularbutterfly the whole idea of
creating areas for these insectsto stop as they're on their
migration to their destination.
For butterflies or monarchs,it's potentially parts, parts of
(14:42):
mexico, for, yeah, for theirannual migration yeah, so that's
a great way to explain.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
When I talked about corridors and this connectivity,
and you know the charismaticmacro fauna like a bobcat or a
mountain lion, it's prettyobvious and that's why I also
referred to it for plants,because plants are important for
these insects right so if youdon't have conserved land that
has these special plants, thatspecifically the bay, the san
(15:14):
francisco bay checker spottedbutterfly, needs specific larval
hosts.
Okay, so plants that it needsto eat in order for the larvae
to be successful, to becomeadults, right.
And there's no huge migration ofthe San Francisco Bay checkers
butterfly, but it needs to beable to have these larval hosts.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
These are historical migrations.
Yeah, well, and then?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
like the monarch butterflies, historic huge
migration.
You know mexico, all the way uphere, and so thinking about
milkweed, right, one of their,that's one of their hosts, but
they need, you know, many plants, but yeah, so just having these
connected areas where thesebutterflies, insects, can move
(16:01):
freely and go from plant toplant, because obviously they
can fly, but if they're flyingthrough a city, where are they
going to stop and rest or eat orall of those things?
So yeah, so it's easy to talkabout mammals, but the plants
are equally important, and thenthe insects that come along with
(16:22):
those plants.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I thought this was a good spot to tell you all about
the Bee Highway in Oslo, norway.
The citizens there have createdthe world's first highway
designed for bees.
The city doesn't have enoughurban parks, which means they
have reduced amount of plantsfor pollinators like bees, so
all citizens are called on tocontribute by planting flowers,
(16:48):
plants and by creating housesfor insects in order for them to
provide shelter and food alongthe city's arteries for the bees
and the pollinators.
What about amphibians?
Because I heard you.
I heard a, a conversation, apresentation that you gave you,
and you spoke specifically.
I think it was about californianewts.
(17:08):
Yes, so tell me about amphibiancrossings or, I guess, the use,
how the amphibians use theseparticular types of corridors
yeah, and so amphibians aren't.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
So amphibians aren't migrating at a scale that those
monarch butterflies are, butthey are crossing to get to the
things that they need within thelandscape, which generally.
We talked a little bit aboutthe California newt and all
amphibians need to go to waterand some of them are breeding in
(17:46):
the water.
Some of them need to stay moist.
They're going from waterhabitats and moving to upland
habitats in the non-wet seasonto forage to live.
So with the corridors, I thinkwith amphibians, a huge thing is
roads and traffic and vehicleson roads, and so if you looked
(18:10):
at a map of the land, you knowpretty much all bodies of water
have a road around them.
So, a project I talked about inthat presentation was at
Lexington Reservoir and thenewts that are coming off that
hillside.
There's some mountains aboveLexington Reservoir and the
newts that are coming off thathillside.
There's some mountains aboveLexington Reservoir and then you
(18:30):
have Alma Road and so all thesenewts are trying to cross that
road to get to the reservoir andthey like to migrate during the
wet season and on Highway 17,.
So back to Highway 17, busyroad for people commuting from
Santa Cruz over to SiliconValley, and then it rains,
there's accidents, so a lot ofpeople will reroute when there's
(18:53):
accidents during the rainyseason, onto this Alma Road to
circumvent the traffic on 17.
To circumvent the traffic on 17.
So a concerned citizen thathikes out there frequently
brought it to all the localagencies' attention that there's
a significant new mortalityhappening on the road as the
newts cross the road to get tothe other side, to get to water,
(19:18):
and they were concerned becauseyou could physically see all
the animals.
So, um, a few agencies havegotten together to study that
mortality and now they'reworking on developing, uh, a
crossing which isn't necessarilya corridor but more of a
crossing.
What kind of crossing?
(19:38):
Um?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
there, that was a like, a like a school crossing
guard.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, there's no new crossing guard, but, same as the
mountain lions, I think whenyou study how they're moving,
the majority of them areprobably moving within the same
areas of the road where watertraverses the road where there's
part of the watershed that getslow, and maybe there used to be
a creek that ran in, so they'restill taking these routes.
(20:07):
So these crossings are stillbeing engineered.
There's a lot of people tryingto develop different kinds of
crossings that are suitable foramphibians.
A lot of work has been done upin Sonoma for the California
tiger salamander Okay.
A lot of work has been done upin Sonoma for the California
tiger salamander Okay.
That's an endangered salamanderspecies and in areas of
development they're requiringmitigation for people to put in
(20:31):
these crossings.
So a lot of them do gounderground and it would just be
like a tunnel underground Right.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So it's a tunnel, which kind of makes sense, yeah,
for amphibians, for amphibiansexactly exactly wow so, but,
it's still kind of unknown thesuccess rate of a lot of these
engineered.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
What's the best thing ?
I'm sure every species kind ofhas a different preference, you
know, and if you were asalamander would you want to go
into a black, endless hole youknow.
So I think some animals arepretty cautious but there's some
burr, some structures that theycan put up to kind of funnel
(21:13):
them.
Think of it as a funnel, sosalamanders can go straight up,
so they'll kind of put.
So they have to go through yeah,so they'll kind of be able to
capture the migration of ahundred foot area and they'll
kind of just naturally follow awall until they can get through
right and then.
So they'll follow that wall andbe funneled to this tunnel and
(21:34):
then be able to get to thereservoir safely without getting
run over.
Oh, that's awesome.
Yeah, that's awesome, so thatspecific project is still in the
planning stages that has notbeen executed yet.
Okay, so they're looking atdesign ideas currently.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I'm curious if you have heard of any type of
predation on the other side ofthat tunnel.
You know?
I have this vision of everybodyusing that tunnel.
And then you have the predatorsgoing.
This is awesome.
Hey, you got to come over hereduring this week because you
should see all the freebiescoming through the tunnel.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I'm just curious.
Yeah well, it would make sense.
The unique thing about theCalifornia newt is it's actually
poisonous.
Oh, so it actually has atetratoxin and so it's evolved
to have this poison, so itdoesn't have many predators.
Yeah, yeah.
(22:33):
And so I think one of the onlyknown predators of it is a
garter snake, who has evolvedwith it and has built up a
tolerance to the poison.
So the garter snakes will eatthem.
But once they eat them theybecome very lethargic after and
it takes them, you know, itslows them down, right right.
(22:55):
So there's some folk, folktales of, uh, you know, people
camping and the newt gettinginto their kettle and then
drinking it and dying from.
I don't know if that's valid,yeah, or just folklore or truth?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
but so specifically newts.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Just as California newt has that poison, but other
salamanders I'm sure would useit.
Other amphibians, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
So you brought up snakes I'm thinking everybody is
snakes would use at otheramphibians.
Yeah, so you brought up snakes,I'm thinking everybody is
snakes would use these as well.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
These over-underpasses, and I think
it's hard to get a catch-all foreverything, and so that's why I
think future generations,future planners, have to really
think about roads.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
So, as Dana pointed out with the amphibian crossings
, not all animal crossings aredesigned for large mammals or
even for mammals.
The annual migration route ofmillions of crabs on Christmas
Island crosses roads, golfcourses and beaches.
The crabs live deep in theisland's forests, but migrate en
(24:03):
masse to the ocean to breed andlay eggs each year.
To help facilitate this massmigration, more than 20
kilometers of barriers are putinto place to direct the crabs
away from the roads and into the31 crab underpasses.
There's also a five meter highcrab bridge crossing at one of
(24:24):
the area's busiest roads.
So I know that there's laws inplace that won't allow
developers to build you know, todevelop so close to a creek or
a waterway and they have to stayso many feet away from it.
Is it the same thing that'shappening with roadways?
In terms of, yeah, are thesethings being considered?
(24:45):
Are animal migration pathsbeing considered when they're
thinking about putting in newroadways?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Well, I don't think they have been until recently.
Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Right, so I think there's hope.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
But a lot of the roads you see were historic
roads.
Right, right, right, right,everything easiest path water,
humans, animals.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Right right, and it probably didn't have as much
impact as it does now because ofthe exploding population.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, exactly.
So I think that's a huge thing.
But there's large snakemortality on roads also because
they like the heat of the roadin the summer.
So, as a you know, a biologist,I have a very keen eye for a
(25:34):
search image.
So I'm driving and you know Ibreak for newts.
I break for newts and I swim forsnakes Very good, I love it,
and so you do see a lot of snakemortality in the road as well.
So I think it's because of thepopulation boom.
It's a bigger problem andconservation biologists are
realizing the problem that thespecies are dealing with because
(25:59):
of the traffic on roads and theanimals are also attracted to
the roads the snakes for heatand other animals just trying to
move across the road right,right yeah because of historical
migration paths yeah, and Imean animals probably just went
everywhere before and then youget so many roads right how are
they gonna, how are they evergonna avoid a road?
Speaker 1 (26:26):
many roads right.
How are they gonna?
How are they?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
ever gonna avoid a road?
Speaker 1 (26:28):
well, yeah, so who?
Who's using all of these?
I mean, I know you've alreadysaid you know the amphibians and
uh, and mountain lions, butwe're talking about bears and
bobcats and all the theungulates, all the deer and what
have you?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
everybody's using these, right yeah, um, there's a
uh.
The video that went viral ofthe badger and the coyote going
through together right yeah,going through together.
So that's amazing.
They're being built forprobably some specific animals
that we're concerned with, andthat's kind of been an approach
(27:03):
of many conservation biologists.
Uh, you call it an umbrellaspecies, right, so you conserve
something for this one speciesthat's endangered, but then it
will protect all these otherthings as a result of that.
So bobcats are using um, thebadger, the coyote bears if we
(27:25):
had them.
So just another place foranimals to move through.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Wow, together, if they have to.
Dana mentioned bears, and BanffNational Park in Canada is home
to bridges specifically createdfor animals.
The passages, 10 to 16 meterswide and covered by local fauna,
aim to induce the animals, suchas deer, moose and bears, to
(27:51):
cross the bridges, rather thanthe heavily trafficked
Trans-Canada Highway.
To date, conservationists havedocumented more than 140,000
animals crossing the highway,either using the bridges or the
underpasses.
Yeah, wow, so, in theimportance of these.
(28:11):
So I've written just a coupleof things down.
Safe passage, of course, youknow, to get in, to get to the
other side, whether it's underor over Historical migrations.
You, you know, that's the waythey've always gone.
They need to get there for acertain reason.
Uh, and you talked about thewhole connecting habitats, which
makes sense because it wasalways a one habitat that got
(28:35):
fragmented, okay, and then, uh,these genetic islands can.
Can you, you know thisisolation.
Can you explain that a littlebit further?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah, so I'm trying to think of maybe a good example
outside of the mountain lions,but so it's just.
It's genetic isolation, where,if an animal can't move out of
this terrestrial island, right,so we're not talking birds and
(29:06):
stuff.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, because they can fly.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Because they can fly yeah, um, so I'm trying to think
.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
So, I guess, more importantly so.
So what?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
why does it matter?
Why does it matter?
Speaker 1 (29:21):
why does it matter that they that that, so they,
it's a good population, it's anice, healthy population.
Why does it matter that it'sthere's a genetic isolation
going on there?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
yeah, so the genetic isolation leads to inbreeding,
which leads to extinctions okayand so I think that's what,
that's the bottom line, that'sthe bottom line and the
ecosystem services that afunctioning ecosystem provide.
When you take a predator out,like if you took the mountain
(29:52):
lions out of the Santa Cruzmountains, then what happens to
the deer population?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Oh, what's going to happen to your garden and all
the vegetation that iscontrolled because the mountain
lion's eating the deers that arenot eating all those plants, so
the apex predator then is lost,and then the prey populations
explode exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
And so there's, the balance is totally off I'm
trying to think of the word thatthey use trickle down or triple
up effects.
Yes, right, so you get rid ofthe apex predator, and then you
have too many deers, and thenyou have more vegetation, and
then you have complete shifts inecosystems based and changes in
ecosystem composition right,right.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
so it not only affects, of course, the animal
populations, it's plantpopulations and the insects, and
it goes on and on and on.
All species are affected bythis type of situation.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yes, yeah, got it, and so there's control from the
top, from the apex, predatorsand the predators, but there's
also bottom up control.
So the alternate to that whicha lot of people don't think
about is those amphibians andthose salamanders.
And so think about what asalamander eats.
(31:09):
A salamander eats sow, bugs,insects, all these things that
are in that leaf, litter in thatrich soil.
So salamanders are having aneffect on the composition of the
soil, invertebrates that arethen having an effect on the
(31:30):
decomposition rate, right?
So if you have, too many bugs.
So if you don't have salamanders, yes, right then there's no one
eating all the bugs, so thenthe bugs are decomposing the
leaf litter quicker and thenpotentially like increasing all
the decomposition and notstoring carbon in the soil as
(31:52):
fast as carbon would be stored,because then things are
decomposing at a faster ratewhere carbon storage which,
right, that's a whole nothergreat conversation of carbon
being stored in ecosystems, inforest ecosystems, down within
the soil, wow.
So it definitely is allintertwined in this very
(32:17):
interesting way where it's easyto think about a mountain lion
and deer, but think abouteverything, and then to cross
those two together.
Then you have the mountain liongoes extinct and then the deers
are eating too much, and thenyou don't have the plants that
were in the soil, right.
So once you start changingthose vegetation communities, it
(32:39):
has an effect on what's goinginto the soil and decomposing
and what those nutrients aregoing to be, right.
So maybe you don't have as manyplants as you once had, so then
your soil soils not as lush, sothen you're storing no carbon.
So there's obviously all sortsof scenarios that can kind of
branch off of these veryintricate relationships and how
(33:01):
predators and prey and insectsand everything interacts.
Wow, that's awesome, yeah, yeah,wow.
So I think you know the averageperson and I like how you frame
that question of well, why doesit matter?
And I think a lot of peoplemaybe.
(33:21):
Well, why, what is theimportance of my life and having
a functioning grassland or afunctioning ecosystem out there?
But that's contrary to maybeyour.
You know your Amazon deliveryor your food getting delivered
or however people choose to livetheir lives, but that is all.
(33:42):
You need a functioningecosystem, right To have clean
water, to have clean air, tohave the food that we provide,
to have clean water, to haveclean air, to have the food that
we provide.
So it's many lengths away froma city dweller's mind, right,
but without that humans couldnot.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
We don't have a chance.
Yeah, we don't have a chance,thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yes, wow, all right.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
so with that being, said we as humans, what can we
do to help the wildlife aroundus?
And I'm going to use the easyexample.
The hard stuff is for you, okay, but the easy example about
planting milkweed, okay.
So years ago, as some of mylisteners know, I worked at a
(34:29):
local institution here in theBay Area and we were really big
into and it's this is still cooland I hope that this is still
happening.
I'm not seeing as much of it.
The green roofs and the idea isnot just about.
You know, throw some grass upthere.
It was about really specificplants that were picked for
species, again creating a path,you know, from upper north, you
(34:53):
know san francisco area, so thatthey could come down.
I'm talking specifically aboutcheckerspot butterflies, but we,
we pick plants specifically toprovide food for them on their
journeys, so I can see where, inmonarch butterflies, of course,
milkweed, milkweed, milkweed,milkweed I get that.
So you're providing restingspots and food for these
(35:17):
creatures as they move alongtheir life, their pathways.
Okay, I got the easy ones andnow you're up.
So okay, so planting milkweedfor monarch butterflies?
Yay, and I okay.
Okay, let me do another easyone too Planting native plants
or planning food for pollinators, and, and I I'm not a native
plant purist.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
I'm so sorry, but I think native plants are awesome.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
But I mean, I think, if you're planning, you know
mediterranean, if you'replanning plants that are well
suited for the area you know andyour water usage, the, the heat
and what have you, and you'reproviding food for lots of
different pollinators, because,of course, we have European
honeybees here, not a nativespecies, but as critically
important.
So, but being to provide foodfor all the pollinators, the
(36:03):
birds, the insects, you know allof that.
Okay, so I got that.
So that's, I think, somethingthat we can all do.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, europe, europe, all of that, okay, so I got
that.
So that's, I think, somethingthat we can all do.
Yeah, europe, well, there isstill a great organization.
There's an organization I reachout to called milkweed watch.
Okay, and you can ordermilkweed from them and they will
give you a local, uh, varietyfrom where you are and mail it
(36:30):
to your house, nice.
So, yeah, there's still.
There's still lots of stuffhappening.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
You can even.
There's a thing called Save theMonarch that I gave away
milkweed seed packets for.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Halloween.
Oh yeah, oh, that's right, yeah, so the kids, they love it.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, they loved it.
So that was just another way toget seeds out there.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, so I think what can people do?
And so we we talked about alittle in the class that we met
but become involved in yourlocal community and planning and
yes, working through variousagencies throughout my career-
we have a very strict processfor public comment and for
(37:15):
people to come and be involvedin one.
We're doing review of theselarger projects and planning and
people are planning buildingsand roads.
There generally is always aforum for people to come and ask
questions and bring up theirconcerns and bring up their
concerns.
(37:35):
So I know in this busy worldthat we're all living in, you
think, well, how can I have time?
But I think to like, pick yourbattle Absolutely Right.
It can get overwhelming.
And you know, as a passionatebiologist and growing up you
know you're like, oh, I want tochange all these things and I
(37:56):
want to make the world a betterplace.
And then you kind of realizeyou can't fix all of it.
But I feel like if everybodypicks what they're passionate
about and fights that battle,then cumulatively it can it can
have a big impact.
So I would say, reach out tolocal government officials that
are making these bigger plans,because you have a voice.
(38:19):
Yeah, you do have a voice andsometimes we have comment
periods on projects that we'redoing and there's certain
nonprofits that are very vocalbut sometimes there's no
comments, right.
So I think people kind ofunderstanding and reaching out
to your local government andfiguring out what development's
(38:43):
happening and really let themknow.
But I think community outreachis pretty important and just
being involved in your localcommunity.
So if you live in aneighborhood that has a fence
that animals cannot get through,if animals are crossing the
road in your neighborhood, can araccoon get under your fence,
(39:06):
right?
Are they going to have to goover your fence?
Maybe a salamander can't getthrough your fence because it's
into the ground, right?
So kind of these more simplethings.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
So it's actually about taking a look around at
your own lifestyle in your ownsanctuary so to speak to see if
you can make it easier for them.
Yeah, Okay, yeah, Okay, yeah.
I think the first thing thatcame to my mind was.
So I live in a neighborhood, asuburban area, and I have
(39:40):
fencing around my backyard andit is a freeway.
The fencing is a freeway andthere's possums on there and
skunks and all kinds of guysmoving through yeah, and it's
years ago.
We put ramps on our fence sothat the animals could go up and
down.
I know that's, too, a more ofan extreme.
(40:02):
Yeah, some people don't wantthose animals in their yard, but
I do, because they eat thesnails and all the you know, the
things that eat my garden, kindof thing.
So there's that balance, butdefinitely, I mean they are.
I think it's a really goodpoint, dana.
These animals are in ourneighborhoods, these animals are
living with us.
We may not see them, butthey're there, and to be able to
(40:25):
give them a little bit easier,yeah, so another thing to maybe
to think at.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And another thing would be support the local.
You know the local open spacenext to where you live or your.
You know whether you're goingto Yosemite or these bigger
things, but there's a lot ofpark systems throughout the Bay
area.
Land agencies they are offeringvolunteer events.
(40:54):
Right, you know, go out andpull a non-native species, right
, right, and so there's.
There's a lot of volunteeractivities that I think people
can get involved in.
Support land agencies andpreserving more open space, and
I think specifically here thatI'm familiar with in Santa Clara
County.
You know there's funds and lawsthat were passed that tax
(41:20):
dollars are supportingacquisitions of more properties
Excellent.
So being involved politicallyand voting it's a critical time,
right, I guess it's a good timeto talk about voting.
That's right, as we're in animportant voting year, but
there's voting every single year, but just when there's
(41:41):
propositions and things on theballot, so that taxes can go to
these agencies that will beacquiring more land or managing
these lands, I think that's alsosupporting them, supporting
them, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
So there's a lot of things that we can all do, and
it may not necessarily behelping that mountain lion get
across the road.
That kind of a thing, that'syour guys' job which I love.
Yeah, but there are all of thesethings, and on our website
we're going to post severalwebsites that people can go to
to look for more information onefor the agencies that are doing
this kind of work there andthere's a lot here in the bay
(42:19):
area, thankfully but also twoother things that you could
potentially do.
You know way, maybe, where toget monarch butterfly seed.
You know milkweed seeds thatkind of thing.
So yeah, we'll post someinformation up there if you want
to get more involved.
But I think that's a reallygood point.
You can be involved, pickwhatever, yeah, balance in your
life, those types of things, butthere are.
You can go full board or youcan do all those beautiful,
(42:42):
sweet little things.
Yeah, there are things that wecan all do.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
There's uh, the cumulative effect absolutely
exponential if we all, we allpick our battles.
The butterfly effect.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
The butterfly effect.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Yes, awesome, awesome .
Thank you so much for your timeand your knowledge.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, it was great talking with you about this and
I think we're at the beginning.
I think, specifically at leastin this region of the San
Francisco Bay, there's going tobe a huge push in the next
decade.
Excellent for a lot more ofthese corridors and studies on
this wildlife and ensuring thatthey have a place to go and that
(43:26):
they're coexisting with us, andso I would say great for the
people before us that saw theforesight of protecting lands.
Yes yes, and I'm super gratefulto be living, you know, in a
place where that's possible andthat you know we're a society
(43:47):
that values that.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yes, agreed.
Thank you so much.
I loved chatting with Dana andgot a better understanding of
how important these corridorsare, whether for mountain lions
or newts, the connection is kindof like a web.
You know.
They have tunnels and bridgesand green belts that connect one
(44:08):
thing to the next thing andthey ensure safe and thriving
passage for animals, insects andthen plants as well.
We'll have links at the TwoChicks and a Whole website where
you can get more information,resources and watch the
wonderful video of the coyoteand the badger using one of the
(44:29):
underpasses here in the SanFrancisco Bay Area.
Thanks for listening, you guys,and take care of each other,
thank you.
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