June 7, 2023 • 40 mins
Did you know there's a surprising connection between gorillas and cell phones that's impacting the environment and wildlife in a major way? That's what we uncover in today's episode with our guest, Eric Ronay, founder of Eco-Cell, a cell phone recycling company helping to make a positive change in the world. Eric shares his journey into the world of cell phone recycling, the shocking statistic that 91% of the world's population owns a cell phone, and how 416,000 cell phones are discarded every day.
We explore the various approaches to reducing the harm to gorillas from cellphone mining, including pre-consumer education, culture change, partnerships with zoos, and engaging with local populations. Eric also discusses the new program, Gorillas on the Line, a keeper-led cell phone recycling initiative aimed at raising awareness about the connection between consumers and gorillas. Plus, we delve into the importance of understanding what happens to our electronics when we send them away to be recycled.
Lastly, we discuss the impact of technology on wildlife and the potential for creating a gorilla-safe cell phone that would help protect these vulnerable species from the environmental harm caused by our devices. Learn how you can make a difference by being mindful of your consumption and join us in this fascinating conversation with Eric Ronay about the connection between gorillas and cell phones.
Eco-Cell
Cell phone recycling drop off locations
Gorillas on the line
Gorilla Species Survival Plan
Virunga National Park
Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund
Interview with: Eric Ronay
Things that make you say "Wow"!
For more episodes and additional information visit the Two Chicks and a Hoe website and our Facebook page.
Big thanks to our Producer, Casey Kennedy.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Music.
Millions of us rely on our cellphones for work.
Wait, wait a minute.
It's not millions, can youbelieve this?
Billions of us rely on our cellphones for work, social
connections, entertainment,shopping and so much more, and
(00:38):
every year we're tempted andencouraged to get the next best
upgraded version And many of usdo.
But can a new electronic gadgethave an impact on wild gorilla
populations?
What is the connection betweengorillas and cell phones?
We're going to be chatting witha man that has been working
(00:58):
with zoos across the UnitedStates to bring awareness to
this connection.
Figure out what in the world isthis connection, and could we
get to the point where cellphone providers might one day
soon offer a gorilla safe cellphone?
The problem is huge, yet thereare great people working on
(01:19):
solutions, and we're going tochat with one of them.
Hi everyone, it's Vanessa fromTwo Chicks in a Ho, the podcast
that digs deeper into natureconservation and amazing people
(01:41):
doing great things.
On today's episode, we're goingto chat with one of those
amazing people, eric Rene, agadget recycler and ape lover
that has been grappling withmillions of discarded cell
phones for over 20 years Yes, idid say grappling, as I see Eric
in hand-to-hand combat to saveus from our very own discarded
(02:05):
cell phones.
Eric is the founder of EcoCell,a Kentucky based cell phone
recycling company that has beenrecycling our unwanted cell
phones for almost 20 yearsthrough his extensive
partnerships with zoos andaquariums across the country.
So, hi, eric, how are you?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I'm doing fantastic and better.
I'm talking to you.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I love it.
Thank you for joining us today.
Eric is the founder of EcoCell,a Kentucky based cell phone
recycling company that has beenrecycling our unwanted
electronics and mostly cellphones, i think for almost 20
years now, if not longer.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Correct, we started in 2003.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
That's amazing.
So what inspired you to getinto this type of business?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Because this is a regular business.
It's not a regular business andhow to say this delicately
There's no way to do it.
I was a flop in the regularwork world.
I really was.
I was smart enough to do somethings, but it just never, ever
(03:10):
felt right.
The things that I was doing,from fixing computer networks to
you name it it just didn't haveit.
It wasn't resonating at all.
And so I bounced around a bunchof jobs and my dad is a serial
entrepreneur, i mean, he startedmore businesses and failed
quite a few of them that I caneven count.
And EcoCell was something thathe was looking at and said why
(03:33):
don't you go over here and takea look at this and if you can
make something out of it, youknow, run with it.
And that's what happened.
I ran out of options.
Basically, i was completely outof options on the work world.
I was like, okay, i'll go dothis thing.
So, like we talked aboutyesterday, you know, the most
creative thinking came rightbefore the hanging.
So I basically looked at thebusinesses in great detail and
(03:59):
pretty quickly figured out.
The most interesting part ofwhat I learned was that primates
and electronics were connected,and this was in 2003.
And I couldn't.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
That's a big, I think , ah-ha for so many people.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Well, it blew my mind .
You know, we've always gone tothe Louisville Zoo, for instance
, and always been proponents ofthe zoo, and they were just
building Gorilla Forest.
Bill Foster was the executivedirector And he actually And
Louisville Zoo, correct,louisville, louisville Zoo Got
it, and so Bill basically toldus that, how it was connected,
(04:33):
and it just blew my mind.
And I'm sitting here thinking,well, there is a business in
here, it's just not the one thatyou know, maybe my dad had
envisioned.
You know, just trading cellphones for the possibility, you
know purpose of trading cellphones.
I wanted to get involved withthe conservation of gorillas and
use the program as a way to doit, and that's how I got
involved.
(04:53):
I was bad at every other job,came to realize that I had to
have a job that was more thanjust banking money.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Well, can I say thank God that you were bad at every
other job.
That's very selfish, but Ithink.
I think we needed you, eric.
I think the world in thegorillas needed you, so it
happened like it was supposed to.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
It does feel right And I think there's more people
out there like me than peopleunderstand That need a job that
makes.
That is more important thanjust making money to them.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Right, right Passion Purpose.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It has to be like that.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
So, okay, you've already said it.
Let me put out some statisticsthat actually blew my mind And
I'm sure you have a lot offamiliarity with this, but it
said that there was 7.26 billionpeople own a cell phone, which
was 91% of the world'spopulation.
(05:45):
Is that?
I don't even know how old thatstatistic is.
Is that still accurate?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
You know, i know that we just passed 8 billion people
.
I think it was today, and Iknow I don't know.
I've not heard that statisticspecifically.
My understanding is that almosteverybody in the United States
owns one Right And there areplaces in the world that aren't
yet saturated with cell phonecoverage.
But my guess is that if that'snot true, it's real close to
(06:13):
being true.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, So, and with that.
then they said that And I'veheard this a couple times now
that 416,000 cell phones arediscarded every day.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I believe that 150 million years, i think what they
said in the United States andthis was an EPA number a few
years back, so I think it'sprobably more.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
That's amazing.
So, as I was talking tosomebody else about this today
and it was kind of like thatidea of How do you get people
involved in this And the wholeidea of, well, recycle your cell
phone, And people are like,yeah, so what?
You know, it's not a big deal.
It's not a big deal to recyclethis useless gadget, so to speak
(06:58):
.
But tell me, tell me what kindof big deal it is.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
You know it's an interesting question.
It's one that I'm still tryingto work out.
You know, we obviously arearound and we're not going
anywhere.
Personally, i think the way toget people to recycle cell
phones and I don't want this tosound like generational bias
okay.
But the generation before mygeneration next, but the
(07:26):
generation before my generationwas a more of a consumer
organization, a consumergeneration kind of a one purpose
and out kind of a thing Like adisposable culture almost Got it
, and I don't mean thatnegatively.
There's plenty of awesomepeople out there, right, that's
just how it's labeled now,that's just how it's labeled and
(07:47):
very materialistic.
Let's just be real.
I mean, i grew up in the 80sand it was all go go.
what do you have?
I think that's what's changing.
is the generations behind thatNot necessarily rejecting that,
but aren't making that the focus, and so what I thought would be
(08:08):
a good idea would be to reachpre-consumers.
Okay, two more.
And I thought the best way to,and when I can say pre-consumers
, i mean people that are eightyears old, 10 years old, almost
to that point where they'removing into a more mature phase
of their lives where they canactually be the ones to purchase
(08:29):
these things.
But I figured those young mindsand I talk to people all the
time are so much more pliant andso much less jaded that if I
could get this information tothem about how primates and cell
phones and electronics areconnected, maybe they will be
the ones to put pressure on thecompanies that make these things
(08:49):
to make them like they wantthem made.
They don't want them to hurtwildlife And in every kid I've
ever talked to you ask any kidwhat would you rather have?
Gorillas or cell phones, youknow, and it's I don't.
They love animals, theyunderstand animals, they
understand the natural worldjust inherently.
So anyway, i get thisinformation to these kids
(09:12):
Eventually.
I'm hoping for kind of like adolphin safe tuna situation
where they a gorilla safe cellphone, for instance.
You know We did it with tuna.
I think if this informationgets to enough people, i think
they'll demand the companiesthat make them do them.
It's more sustainable.
(09:33):
But in order to do this.
We had to introduce this ideato these people.
That's why I chose Zeus allover the United States.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
So let's make that connection for our listeners.
Now Let's make the greatconnection, okay.
So I mean, i know we've workedtogether for so many years now
in regards to recycling cellphones and making that
connection back to theDemocratic Republic of Congo,
home of lowland gorillas,mountain gorillas and, i think,
(10:00):
cross river gorillas, severalother species.
But tell me how it's electronicgadgets, cell phones in
particular, connected to theworld of gorillas.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It's insane voodoo magic, i'm not really sure This
material.
There's three differentcomponents to a cell phone and
this is how they're connected togorillas in Congo.
One.
There's those three elements.
One's called tantalum and it'sa material found in stream beds
(10:33):
in massive quantities in gorillahabitats.
And so what happened was whenlandlines weren't a thing
anymore and cell phonesskyrocketed in usage.
I mean, these companies justwent after this material and dug
out these habitats.
Tantalum covers the capacitorsinside the cell phone itself and
it allows for theminiaturization of the cell
(10:54):
phone.
It's a very effective way tostore energy and distribute it
across the integrated circuitboards inside the cell phones.
I mean it's insanely effectiveat holding.
It's like a superchargedbattery really.
So it holds an insane amount ofenergy for a long time and
doesn't leak any energy, andthat's why cell phones are so
energy efficient.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And every cell phone uses this material, every piece
of electronics.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Ah, okay, so I mean iPods, anything that's got a
green board inside of it and Iknow everybody knows what the
green boards are.
You'll notice a little blackwafer on there And that's the
capacitor coated in tantalum.
Ah, okay, so it's this littletiny capacitor, but if you make
a billion cell phones a year,you're talking about a
(11:40):
tremendous stress on theenvironment to get after this
material.
So that's one of them.
The other is called tungsten,and that's what makes your phone
vibrate.
Oh, okay, and it's found inlike 80% of the world's supplies
, found in gorilla habitats.
The other is tin, which helpssolder all these components to
the actual integrated circuitboard itself.
Gold, of course, used inmassive quantities in cell
(12:04):
phones and electronics becauseit doesn't tarnish, okay, it
doesn't rust.
It's a pure material and that'swhy they use so much of it in
these cell phones.
So that's how it's connected.
And then you combine that withthe technological age, the
electronic age, and now you'vegot yourself a recipe for
disaster.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Okay, so what about coltan or coltained?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Coltan is the raw material that's mined in the
stream beds, which is refineddown into tantalum.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Got it Okay, so tell me though, eric, can you not
find these anywhere else in theworld?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
You know, it's like you shoot and fish in a barrel.
I mean, you know, if 80% of theworld's supplies found in a
very specific spot on earth,that's where they're gonna go.
That's where they're gonna go.
And guess what?
The synthetic version oftantalum, which is man-made, is
more expensive.
Wow, and that's why it's notused.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Wow, wow.
So are these consideredconflict minerals?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
100%, okay, 100%.
So Congo is unstable Andbasically, i think some of these
factions use that resource todestabilize further the area.
Obviously, they're the onespaying miners pittance to go in
(13:28):
and tear this material out.
It's not the everyday person'sfault.
It's a very complex issue, onethat.
But I mean you can't blame iteveryday person in Congo for not
trying to make a living Correct, right, right, you can't.
I mean, i understand that.
But these mining companies aremaking ridiculous amounts of
money, you know, withpartnerships with electronics
(13:50):
companies.
["minerals"].
Speaker 1 (14:03):
So, knowing that this is the place to get these
minerals, and this is allhappening mostly in Eastern
Congo, correct, right, and thegorilla had to Right, where all
the gorillas are, of course,okay, so conflict minerals.
So is there such a thing, thenHow can we get to conflict-free
minerals?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Man, that's the billion trillion dollar question
.
my mom that's been for a longtime And is that?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
would that be then saying let's say, for example
then like a gorilla, a gorillasafe phone.
I mean, is that where thatcertification potentially comes
from?
Does it stem back to the actualsource of where all these
minerals are coming from, themining?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
part.
I think it's really complexbecause there's multiple ways
you've got to approach theproblem.
One, and it was just mentioned,you have to get people to want
a product that doesn't harmgorillas Right, it doesn't harm
wildlife.
In order to make them do that,you got to make them care about
the wildlife Right, whichrequires culture change, and
that's very, very difficult.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
But don't you also have to get the consumer to
understand that there's aconnection to the gorillas in
the first place?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Absolutely, and that's why we chose to put our
boxes at the zoo and partnerwith all these wonderful zoos,
because 135 million people inthe United States alone went to
zoos last year Got it Biggestplace, So that's 135 million
different opportunities.
Yes, To talk about that.
That's one.
Two you've got to figure outhow to work with local
(15:30):
populations that live in thosehabitats.
They're doing this because theyneed to make a living.
So and I've heard all kinds ofdifferent ways to ease that,
which everything from ecotourismto getting people involved in
gorilla conservation in thoseareas instead of tearing the
(15:51):
habitats out.
Realizing that a gorilla onplanet Earth is critical, I mean
, it's an amazing thing, Youmust have it, It's a spiritual
thing, Right?
And in order to get thesepopulations to stop mining in
favor of conserving gorillas,well, that's going to take some
doing as well.
Somebody's got to make a living, and I get that.
(16:13):
And three we've talked aboutthis.
I've heard about this onebefore.
Let's talk legislation andthings.
I get it.
Legislation is important and Iunderstand it From the Frank
Dodds Act on it.
I get all this stuff, but wedon't have time to push
legislation that may or may notwork.
I think we've got to be alittle more bold and a little
(16:35):
more aggressive with this thing,And the only way I knew to do
that.
I think the best way to do thatis to push it from the consumer
up.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yes, consumers buy these markets, don't they?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And I talk to kids all the time and you know I look
at them and I go.
You realize they're going tomake the stuff that you want
Right, it never goes.
They're going to make what youwant.
What you want is aenvironmentally friendly,
gorilla, safe cell phone.
They're going to make it Andthey're going to use that as a
competitive advantage.
But they're going to do whatyou say And you've got the power
(17:12):
to make them change.
You know, when you talk to akid that's 12 years old and
they're thinking of you knowSam's under Apple, you know
that's quite a conversation tohave, but it's true, but it's
true.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I never, you know, I never heard this from the
perspective of, you know,pre-consumer, like you mentioned
the pre-consumer education partof it, And I love that.
But, as you know, you just saidwe have to move now.
So what are you and I going todo?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Well, i'm going to continue working with Zeus And
thankfully I've really we'vegotten better at it, believe it
or not after 20 years.
We're starting to work withkeepers now, and that, to me, is
to keepers.
And so a new program isactually coming around And I
really love talking about it.
It's called Gorillaz on theLine And it's a keeper led cell
(18:07):
phone recycling initiative withthese Zeus And they've done an
insanely good job of gettingpeople to recycle cell phones.
That's because when they govisit you know the Gorilla, the
Gorillaz at the zoo.
You've got keepers talkingdirectly to kids about Gorillaz
and what their electronics intheir back pocket have in common
(18:27):
.
And that's where we need thatmessage to be.
We need it to be right there,where you know a kid, a
pre-consumer, can look and watcha Gorilla mother with her
infant and then have a keepersay and that phone that you've
got in your back pocket rightthere, is affecting this animal
that you've seen, that you loveand that you've come back 10
(18:48):
times this summer to see.
And here's what we need you todo to make sure that this
species continues.
I think if we do that enoughtime, i think we got it.
And that's a new program inZeus.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
It's a new program in Zeus, i love it.
Keeper led to boot.
I think that's awesome Keeperled.
The people that really know,gorillaz.
Yes, yes, the people that havethe deepest connection with them
.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yep, yeah, it's deep.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yes, it is, yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Y'all don't have to tell you that though.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yes, it is.
Yeah, I wasn't a keeper, but Ihad a lot of experience with
Gorilla keepers.
So, yes, yes.
So going back to my cell phoneright here, let's say it's time
(19:36):
for it to go away.
I'm going to send it to you.
It's current and Reynoldsalignments.
What do you guess?
Oh, got the gorilla connection.
Okay, we'll figure some more onthat, but tell me, this phone
I'm sending you.
Where's it going?
What's going, what's happeningto it?
I know that people want to knowbecause I don't think, i don't
think this is on the forefrontof people's minds What happens
(19:58):
to my small electronic gadgetsthat I'm saying are getting
recycled, are they?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And It's a great question.
It's a black spot on the mapfor a lot of people because,
you're right, people just don'tunderstand what happens to the
stuff on the back, right.
What does that mean, eric?
Please tell us.
I'll tell you what happens.
I can tell you what we do.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Okay, that's what I need to know, because I'm hoping
people send you their phones.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Okay, so we're that weirdo company, unlike everybody
else, that's really focused onpenetrating the individual on a
public level, right?
So we want to keep that phoneout of the garbage can, out of
the waste stream before it hitsthe waste stream, and bring it
obviously bring the connectionto the wildlife to the forefront
(20:44):
.
Once we receive the phone hereat EcoSell, we make an
evaluation on it, and that firstevaluation is is it so old?
does it have any reuse valuewhatsoever?
Can we reuse it?
And nine times out of 10, theanswer is probably no.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Right, that's a quickly growing industry, isn't
it?
in terms of change?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
It is, and we could dig on deep down into this, but
the point is that most of thewell, so much to talk about, i
can hardly even trip over mytongue.
So we get the phone and we takea look at it and it's pretty
evident.
I mean, if it's an iPhone X, itcan be reused, okay, and we see
(21:23):
iPhone X as we see iPhone 13s,and this is what the 15th of
November 2022.
I mean, that phone came out ayear and a half ago.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
That blows my mind.
That blows my mind that theidea of I have to have that new
phone, This one's perfectly fine, but let's get rid of it.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, usually it makes us pause here, niko Cell
and I hold the phone up and I'mlike I can't believe this.
Right, but it happens.
Mostly we see thosefive-year-old, six-year-old cell
phones that people have justleft in their drawers for a long
time, which makes me thehappiest, the more broken, the
most waterlogged bin in thetoilet, run over by a car,
bedazzled phone that's the one Iwant.
(22:01):
Ah good, because we've alreadymade the connection between
electronics and wildlife and Iknow that's the most likely
candidate to go into thelandfill.
It's so old, nobody cares aboutit anymore.
The battery is insanely toxic.
I want that cell phone.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
OK.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
So we resell the iPhone 13.
I resell that.
I have this auction, basically,And we sell wholesale.
I sell it with the highestbidder.
Make as much money as possibleon that iPhone 13,.
Save some for myself and passeverything over to a guerrilla
conservation organization.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Awesome.
Wait, where is this market?
Who's getting that old phone orthat kind of new old phone?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
And again, this market changes so quickly.
If you'd asked me this questiontwo years ago, I would have
said that market was in HongKong.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
OK.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Nowadays it's more in the United States Interesting
OK.
Ok, and I do want to make apoint here on this one
Electronics in China.
Regarding recycling, a lot ofpeople say oh my god, they're in
burn pits over there, they'rebeing disassembled incorrectly,
kids are dying.
Well, that was true for a while, especially for the larger
(23:18):
electronic items that hadabsolutely no resell, like
remember the big, heavy CRTmonitors.
They weighed 75 pounds apiece.
The big price.
What companies were doing wasthey were sending those to China
and saying that they were beingrecycled.
Well, of course they weren'tproperly Right.
When I resell an iPhone 13 tosomebody in China, that phone
gets reused by a growing middleclass in China, got it?
(23:40):
So everything that I sell isbeing reused.
When I send it to China, a lotof it's being reused here in the
United States.
Now Everything else, which isthe 90% of the stuff remaining,
goes to a company that we vetfor an environmental recycling
accreditation like ISO, r2, orBAN, and we sell those that we
(24:04):
call end of life cell phones tothem.
And that's when the actual,real recycling process begins,
when people understand to berecycling, which is dismantling
it, grinding it up, reclaimingprecious metals from that
material and then sequesteringall the toxins.
That's what happens to the restof the material that we have.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Excellent And I think that's important for people to
understand.
there's an upcycling, meaningthat wonderful kind of new phone
is going to be used by somebodyelse, which is awesome, and
then the recycling part of it,where it's taken apart,
disassembled and taken care ofproperly, environmentally
properly, everything about it isthe right way to do it.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
That's right, and we're sticklers for the
recycling piece of it, becausewe make sure that we get
certificates of recycling.
We make sure that the companiesare certified.
We look through their ISOcertifications.
We want to make sure thatthat's done completely correctly
, because we work with so manyconservation orders that we want
to do it perfectly.
Got it, got it.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
So when I first started working with you many,
many years ago at the zoo herein San Jose, i knew that our
phones were going to you andthese things were happening, and
the market, like you said, itchanges so rapidly.
Then, and it was one of thosethings where the big phone
companies were saying here, buya new phone and bring your old
(25:25):
one in, we'll give you credit orsome kind of discount, and I
thought this is awesome.
This is awesome.
Yes, it took away from what wewere collecting, but it didn't
matter, because I felt thatthose phones were being recycled
as well, the ones that weregoing back to, i guess, the big
companies, yeah, the providers.
Is that the case, though?
Are they being recycledproperly as well?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I don't know firsthand if they are.
I know I've read through someof their websites and I see some
of the lingo that's beingbantered around, and it does
appear that at least the stuffthat's end of life is being
recycled correctly.
I would imagine they do upcyclealmost every single one of the
phones that they take back.
Ok, Which is fine.
Which is fine.
I understand that.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Meaning, eric, that they're being reused?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
correct, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
So when you?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
send your iPhone 12 in to a provider.
they say that they're going togive you a brand new phone,
which they do, and they lease itback to you and then they
resell the old phone that you'vegiven them, for sure Got it.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
All right, so this is a good thing.
And again, part of the disposalprocess of a cell phone, let's
say that one that's insomebody's drawer for six years
ends up in a landfill.
Okay, tell me why?
No point, that's why it's bad.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Inside that.
the piece by far that's themost critical in this is the
battery.
I mean, it's just filled withheavy metal toxins arsenic acid,
lead, you name it.
it's in there.
And what happens?
if it makes it to the landfilljust through natural cooling
cycles, winter, whatever itmight be water leaching into it,
the casing around that's goingto disintegrate And eventually
(27:10):
those toxins are going to getreleased into the environment
and they're eventually going totrickle down into our aquifer.
And now we've got heavy metalsin our environment.
That's what's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
So phones are either being so, if they're not
recycled, they end uppotentially in the landfills,
and what happens what you justsaid?
or aren't some of them beingincinerated as well?
And isn't that I mean in termsof trash?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
go ahead.
The solid waste that Iunderstand goes to the landfill.
That's as I understand it Now,if it's being burned 10 times
worse.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Okay, that's what I was thinking as well, but yeah,
i don't know that.
I wanted to hear that from you.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, no, god forbid, it's being vaporized.
One thing that we've notcovered in.
Again, we can dig in this.
We can talk for four more hours, i promise you I know we could,
(28:10):
but I mean, i think they'retalking nowadays about the
return on these black rectangles.
They've kind of hit a spotwhere how many more black
rectangles are they going to beable to market to people?
Because this one's got twocameras on it, this one's got
three.
And you're asking me to turn inmy old cell phone.
Honestly, god, i think thecustomer might be getting a
(28:33):
little more sophisticated thanthe marketing effort to sell a
new cell phone.
I'd heard that one, which gaveme great hope.
Actually, what does that meanexactly then?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
So where are we going ?
So that enticement to get thelatest.
should we be recording this?
That enticement to get thelatest and greatest?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Well, that got my curiosity hackles up.
It really did.
It was just like wait a second,hold on.
You're right, the shape of acell phone really hasn't changed
that much at all.
I've seen people arguing aboutwhich cell phone's better.
Somebody will pull up blackrectangle out It's four inches
long and six inches wide orwhatever it is And another
person will do the same thingAnd I see the same black
(29:15):
rectangle.
One might have a slightlybetter camera in it.
One might have a juju beanoperating kernel, which I don't
even know what that is.
Anyway, you know, i'm justmaking it up.
I mean, like, the point is,when do I become less excited
about a cell phone?
And I think we're kind ofgetting there a little bit.
(29:39):
I'm hearing talk about phonesthat are dumb phones now being
actual marketing ideas, and wejust had a company that's making
a dumb phone.
I want to recycle with this anda dumb phone being it doesn't
do social media.
All it has on it is a way toget texts and calls and maybe a
(30:00):
map or something, a GPS map, andthat's it.
Because people are realizing isthis phone really this
beneficial to me?
I mean, it's taking up all mybrain cycles Before I go to bed.
I look at it for two hours.
It's now 12 o'clock at night.
The blue light's killing me.
I don't sleep well.
Social media is making meanxious.
It looks like a black rectangle.
(30:21):
I can't tell the differencebetween this one and the S that
I had earlier, which is now 13months old.
I think the return on this ideais becoming.
The balloon was off the rose, alittle bit more than it used to
be Interesting.
Well, I mean, you take the leapbetween a flip phone and a
smartphone, and that leap isgigantic One you can't even text
on it.
It doesn't have a smart screenon it, And the one in the
(30:46):
smartphone?
it looks like wizardry comparedto it.
Well, we've been stuck in thisblack rectangle thing for a long
time.
What is the next iteration oftechnology that's going to
excite people, Because going toa triple slow-mo camera might
not be doing it anymore.
So I think what you've seen insome of the usage patterns, I
(31:06):
think you're changing a littlebit.
I think this is one of thefirst years where they've sold
less cell phones than they didthe previous year.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I know So and I dare say that just about anybody you
talk to think social media isactually a healthy thing,
healthy, right, healthy.
I don't think too many peoplethink it's healthy anymore.
At first it was intoxicatingand it still isn't.
It still isn't intoxicating,but do you really need it in
your back pocket telling you howlive your life every second of
(31:37):
your day, right, right?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
So I think there's a backlash coming.
So the shift is starting andthe shift, then, of course, will
be to the benefit of theenvironment and the population
and in the world.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
That's right.
The hairs are up on my armthinking about the idea.
So I'm sitting here thinking tomyself well, maybe the consumer
is a bit more sophisticated,because when you give somebody
magic, my God, that's incredible.
But if you live with it for awhile, all of a sudden you're
like well, this is not asincredible as I thought it was.
In fact, my life might bebetter by unplugging a little
bit.
I love it, i love it.
(32:14):
I do too.
I mean, let's just face it, ithink life is richer without a
cell phone in your back pocket.
I have literally been upsetwith myself when I lose a cell
phone and I'm seriously panickedAnd I hate that feeling.
I can't live with my cell phonefor without an hour.
You know what I?
Speaker 1 (32:32):
mean Being connected to it, to that little I like
that.
I've never heard thatexpression though a little black
rectangle.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
And I've got so many of them here in the office and I
recycle so many and I'verecycled I can't tell the
difference half the time I'msitting here looking at it.
You know you got to look up theIMEI number and the difference
between an iPhone 13 and aniPhone 12.
I mean, is one gram weightsdifference?
I mean I've got a scale here,literally electronic scale.
That's how we identify some ofthese iPhone models.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
You weigh out the phones.
You weigh each phone.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
No, but there's.
some of them are so similar.
The only way you can tell thedifference is the weight.
Oh my gosh, these are Appleproducts And it's just like how
is this?
so?
why is this benefiting me againto go get back into a lease on
a $1,500 smartphone Because Igot another camera or something.
(33:25):
What is this?
So I'm starting to hear somegrumbling and mumbling, which
I'm actually pretty excitedabout.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
That's good, because you would be the pulse, you
would have the pulse of it.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, right, it's changed.
I've seen the whole thing, frombrick phones and bag phones all
the way up to iPhone 14.
No, in one part that we didn'ttalk about, which I'm interested
in too two things how to solvea gorilla problem.
And if I'm Tim Cook at Appleand I get a conversation with
(33:57):
him and he knows my family, iknow his family I'm like well,
number one, let's design a cellphone that takes into accounts
being able to modularize it, sowhen you come out with a new
camera, i can just get thecamera.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I don't have to get a whole new phone.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
I can gradually upgrade what I've got my current
housing Right Why do I have tohave a whole new thing?
The second thing is, ratherthan they've been purposefully
avoiding talking about theenvironmental liability of a
piece of a technology, why don'twe lean into it?
Let's lean into it.
(34:34):
Let's not only talk about itbecause it's going to come out.
Let's put a slip inside ofevery cell phone that we sell.
We sell 200 million cell phonesa year.
Let's put a little slip inthere that says would you like
to help mitigate the gorillaplight?
would you like to donate to theGorilla Conservation Fund?
If?
so, and this is why, this is whythere's this connection there
(34:57):
And this is why And Apple'sdoing its very best, which I
think Apple's out in front ofthings way more than everybody
else is.
but we need more help, and weneed more help from you guys.
So, everybody, when you sign upfor our cell phone service or
Verizon or whoever it is, here'san opportunity to donate $5.
Right, i'll bet you, we couldraise a billion dollars for
(35:19):
Gorilla Conservation that way inthe United States every year.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Right back to the Are you starting these
conversations?
Speaker 2 (35:27):
I don't have any contacts in the provider world.
Everybody wants to talk to me.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
I had a similar experience.
I was trying to follow a singleuse plastic bottle to.
Somebody, threw it out theirwindow, went down the creek.
Where did it go?
You know as it went to getrecycled, you know, so to speak,
and I wanted to get.
I wanted to see what happenedto it at the recycling plant,
and I can't get anybody to talkto me.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Oh, imagine that.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Imagine that So.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I can love.
I can love.
That's okay.
I get a lot.
I actually got a lot ofinterest from grad students at a
few universities that want totalk about cell phones, which I
think is fantastic, and theyalways come to me and they
always say the same thing.
I try to get in touch with theproviders.
They won't talk to me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And I'm like, yeah, they don't want, they don't want
to talk to you.
Yeah, they don't want some ofthose secrets out And I
understand it from I think Iunderstand it from a business
perspective.
but I like that what you justsaid lean into it, let's lean
into it because we have to facethis problem.
So let's all put our collectivelean into it and face the
problem.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
And I think it's a marketing opportunity for them
too.
And I don't think they fullyunderstand this, with climate
change going on like it is andpeople finally understanding
that it's happening And I thinkit's I think they're
understanding this because theirinsurance records are going up
or they can't get insuredanymore.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
So connections to that makes it personal to them.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Personal.
It's kind of hidden on the wall, yes And so, and this is what's
happened, and they're finallylike, well, you know, you're
right, the climate really ischanging.
Talk to them five years earlier.
Not, you're not going to getanywhere with them, but hit them
in the pocketbook and you'relike all of a sudden you're like
, well, shoot, we got to dosomething about this, right?
But I think it's going tobecome an opportunity for
companies to differentiatethemselves environmentally And I
(37:17):
think that time is coming,hopefully soon, thank you.
But I am seeing some movementin that direction, which I'm
happy about.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
That's great news.
I mean that's great news And Idon't want to end.
I like this because we're notending with the doom and gloom
of it all.
We've already talked that,we've touched on that, and I
like the idea that we've talkedabout things that people can do
and resources out there forfolks, and I highly recommend
(37:47):
going to eco-cellorg to get moreinformation, and I love your
website because it's not toocomplicated.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I'm glad you say that .
I love it, because they askedme to come out and talk to some
kids at the Louisville Zooduring their summer camps.
And invariably I go out therethe first couple of years and
I'm just blowing them away withinformation, right, and their
eyes are glassing over and I'mlike, oh man, this might not be
the right approach.
I go in there the next time andI take a cell phone and stomp
on it on the floor and crack itopen And I'm like you see all
(38:18):
that stuff inside of it, allthat stuff that looks like gold.
Well, that's gold.
And then they freak out.
So you have to be careful.
Like you said, too muchinformation sometimes is not a
good thing.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yes, so information's good, but yes, a little bit's
here and there, a little bit'shere and there, otherwise, you
get overwhelmed.
So go to Eric Eco-Cell's website.
I can't recommend or you knowit's coming from the zoo world
Get involved with your local zoo.
They are doing amazing thingsfor conservation far beyond what
(38:51):
you see when you walk throughthe gate And all you have to do
is ask.
It's there.
If you don't want to go totheir website, go to the keepers
.
Go to the people that workthere.
They would love to tell you allthe cool stuff that's happening
.
In particular, i think thegorilla keepers Especially.
I love this Gorillas on theLine program.
I think this is awesome becauseit's their heart.
(39:12):
They show their heart when theytalk about their gorillas.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yep, no nonsense.
Straight to the point.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yep, yep, i had several I didn't know that
moments in the conversation withEric.
Eco-cell is one of the firstrecycling companies that put the
wildlife electronics connectionout to the public and how
technology is impacting wildlife, especially at the mineral
sources in Africa home to thegorillas.
(39:39):
The idea was to make thisconnection for people.
Kind of the same idea that wasthe basis for this podcast to
connect the dots from your phoneto the gorillas and bring some
light and positive into thesituation.
We have a huge amount ofinfluence and impact as
consumers.
(40:00):
We truly drive the markets onproducts.
Wouldn't it be cool If we couldcollectively lean into bringing
a Gorilla Safe cell phone ontothe market?
Thanks for listening and beingpart of the good stuff that's
happening in the world.
Take care, you guys.
Music.
Millions of us rely on our cellphones for work.
Wait, wait a minute.
It's not millions, can youbelieve this?
Billions of us rely on our cellphones for work, social
connections, entertainment,shopping and so much more, and
(00:38):
every year we're tempted andencouraged to get the next best
upgraded version And many of usdo.
But can a new electronic gadgethave an impact on wild gorilla
populations?
What is the connection betweengorillas and cell phones?
We're going to be chatting witha man that has been working
(00:58):
with zoos across the UnitedStates to bring awareness to
this connection.
Figure out what in the world isthis connection, and could we
get to the point where cellphone providers might one day
soon offer a gorilla safe cellphone?
The problem is huge, yet thereare great people working on
(01:19):
solutions, and we're going tochat with one of them.
Hi everyone, it's Vanessa fromTwo Chicks in a Ho, the podcast
that digs deeper into natureconservation and amazing people
(01:41):
doing great things.
On today's episode, we're goingto chat with one of those
amazing people, eric Rene, agadget recycler and ape lover
that has been grappling withmillions of discarded cell
phones for over 20 years Yes, idid say grappling, as I see Eric
in hand-to-hand combat to saveus from our very own discarded
(02:05):
cell phones.
Eric is the founder of EcoCell,a Kentucky based cell phone
recycling company that has beenrecycling our unwanted cell
phones for almost 20 yearsthrough his extensive
partnerships with zoos andaquariums across the country.
So, hi, eric, how are you?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I'm doing fantastic and better.
I'm talking to you.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I love it.
Thank you for joining us today.
Eric is the founder of EcoCell,a Kentucky based cell phone
recycling company that has beenrecycling our unwanted
electronics and mostly cellphones, i think for almost 20
years now, if not longer.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Correct, we started in 2003.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
That's amazing.
So what inspired you to getinto this type of business?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Because this is a regular business.
It's not a regular business andhow to say this delicately
There's no way to do it.
I was a flop in the regularwork world.
I really was.
I was smart enough to do somethings, but it just never, ever
(03:10):
felt right.
The things that I was doing,from fixing computer networks to
you name it it just didn't haveit.
It wasn't resonating at all.
And so I bounced around a bunchof jobs and my dad is a serial
entrepreneur, i mean, he startedmore businesses and failed
quite a few of them that I caneven count.
And EcoCell was something thathe was looking at and said why
(03:33):
don't you go over here and takea look at this and if you can
make something out of it, youknow, run with it.
And that's what happened.
I ran out of options.
Basically, i was completely outof options on the work world.
I was like, okay, i'll go dothis thing.
So, like we talked aboutyesterday, you know, the most
creative thinking came rightbefore the hanging.
So I basically looked at thebusinesses in great detail and
(03:59):
pretty quickly figured out.
The most interesting part ofwhat I learned was that primates
and electronics were connected,and this was in 2003.
And I couldn't.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
That's a big, I think , ah-ha for so many people.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Well, it blew my mind .
You know, we've always gone tothe Louisville Zoo, for instance
, and always been proponents ofthe zoo, and they were just
building Gorilla Forest.
Bill Foster was the executivedirector And he actually And
Louisville Zoo, correct,louisville, louisville Zoo Got
it, and so Bill basically toldus that, how it was connected,
(04:33):
and it just blew my mind.
And I'm sitting here thinking,well, there is a business in
here, it's just not the one thatyou know, maybe my dad had
envisioned.
You know, just trading cellphones for the possibility, you
know purpose of trading cellphones.
I wanted to get involved withthe conservation of gorillas and
use the program as a way to doit, and that's how I got
involved.
(04:53):
I was bad at every other job,came to realize that I had to
have a job that was more thanjust banking money.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Well, can I say thank God that you were bad at every
other job.
That's very selfish, but Ithink.
I think we needed you, eric.
I think the world in thegorillas needed you, so it
happened like it was supposed to.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
It does feel right And I think there's more people
out there like me than peopleunderstand That need a job that
makes.
That is more important thanjust making money to them.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Right, right Passion Purpose.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It has to be like that.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
So, okay, you've already said it.
Let me put out some statisticsthat actually blew my mind And
I'm sure you have a lot offamiliarity with this, but it
said that there was 7.26 billionpeople own a cell phone, which
was 91% of the world'spopulation.
(05:45):
Is that?
I don't even know how old thatstatistic is.
Is that still accurate?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
You know, i know that we just passed 8 billion people
.
I think it was today, and Iknow I don't know.
I've not heard that statisticspecifically.
My understanding is that almosteverybody in the United States
owns one Right And there areplaces in the world that aren't
yet saturated with cell phonecoverage.
But my guess is that if that'snot true, it's real close to
(06:13):
being true.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, So, and with that.
then they said that And I'veheard this a couple times now
that 416,000 cell phones arediscarded every day.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I believe that 150 million years, i think what they
said in the United States andthis was an EPA number a few
years back, so I think it'sprobably more.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
That's amazing.
So, as I was talking tosomebody else about this today
and it was kind of like thatidea of How do you get people
involved in this And the wholeidea of, well, recycle your cell
phone, And people are like,yeah, so what?
You know, it's not a big deal.
It's not a big deal to recyclethis useless gadget, so to speak
(06:58):
.
But tell me, tell me what kindof big deal it is.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
You know it's an interesting question.
It's one that I'm still tryingto work out.
You know, we obviously arearound and we're not going
anywhere.
Personally, i think the way toget people to recycle cell
phones and I don't want this tosound like generational bias
okay.
But the generation before mygeneration next, but the
(07:26):
generation before my generationwas a more of a consumer
organization, a consumergeneration kind of a one purpose
and out kind of a thing Like adisposable culture almost Got it
, and I don't mean thatnegatively.
There's plenty of awesomepeople out there, right, that's
just how it's labeled now,that's just how it's labeled and
(07:47):
very materialistic.
Let's just be real.
I mean, i grew up in the 80sand it was all go go.
what do you have?
I think that's what's changing.
is the generations behind thatNot necessarily rejecting that,
but aren't making that the focus, and so what I thought would be
(08:08):
a good idea would be to reachpre-consumers.
Okay, two more.
And I thought the best way to,and when I can say pre-consumers
, i mean people that are eightyears old, 10 years old, almost
to that point where they'removing into a more mature phase
of their lives where they canactually be the ones to purchase
(08:29):
these things.
But I figured those young mindsand I talk to people all the
time are so much more pliant andso much less jaded that if I
could get this information tothem about how primates and cell
phones and electronics areconnected, maybe they will be
the ones to put pressure on thecompanies that make these things
(08:49):
to make them like they wantthem made.
They don't want them to hurtwildlife And in every kid I've
ever talked to you ask any kidwhat would you rather have?
Gorillas or cell phones, youknow, and it's I don't.
They love animals, theyunderstand animals, they
understand the natural worldjust inherently.
So anyway, i get thisinformation to these kids
(09:12):
Eventually.
I'm hoping for kind of like adolphin safe tuna situation
where they a gorilla safe cellphone, for instance.
You know We did it with tuna.
I think if this informationgets to enough people, i think
they'll demand the companiesthat make them do them.
It's more sustainable.
(09:33):
But in order to do this.
We had to introduce this ideato these people.
That's why I chose Zeus allover the United States.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
So let's make that connection for our listeners.
Now Let's make the greatconnection, okay.
So I mean, i know we've workedtogether for so many years now
in regards to recycling cellphones and making that
connection back to theDemocratic Republic of Congo,
home of lowland gorillas,mountain gorillas and, i think,
(10:00):
cross river gorillas, severalother species.
But tell me how it's electronicgadgets, cell phones in
particular, connected to theworld of gorillas.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It's insane voodoo magic, i'm not really sure This
material.
There's three differentcomponents to a cell phone and
this is how they're connected togorillas in Congo.
One.
There's those three elements.
One's called tantalum and it'sa material found in stream beds
(10:33):
in massive quantities in gorillahabitats.
And so what happened was whenlandlines weren't a thing
anymore and cell phonesskyrocketed in usage.
I mean, these companies justwent after this material and dug
out these habitats.
Tantalum covers the capacitorsinside the cell phone itself and
it allows for theminiaturization of the cell
(10:54):
phone.
It's a very effective way tostore energy and distribute it
across the integrated circuitboards inside the cell phones.
I mean it's insanely effectiveat holding.
It's like a superchargedbattery really.
So it holds an insane amount ofenergy for a long time and
doesn't leak any energy, andthat's why cell phones are so
energy efficient.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And every cell phone uses this material, every piece
of electronics.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Ah, okay, so I mean iPods, anything that's got a
green board inside of it and Iknow everybody knows what the
green boards are.
You'll notice a little blackwafer on there And that's the
capacitor coated in tantalum.
Ah, okay, so it's this littletiny capacitor, but if you make
a billion cell phones a year,you're talking about a
(11:40):
tremendous stress on theenvironment to get after this
material.
So that's one of them.
The other is called tungsten,and that's what makes your phone
vibrate.
Oh, okay, and it's found inlike 80% of the world's supplies
, found in gorilla habitats.
The other is tin, which helpssolder all these components to
the actual integrated circuitboard itself.
Gold, of course, used inmassive quantities in cell
(12:04):
phones and electronics becauseit doesn't tarnish, okay, it
doesn't rust.
It's a pure material and that'swhy they use so much of it in
these cell phones.
So that's how it's connected.
And then you combine that withthe technological age, the
electronic age, and now you'vegot yourself a recipe for
disaster.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Okay, so what about coltan or coltained?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Coltan is the raw material that's mined in the
stream beds, which is refineddown into tantalum.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Got it Okay, so tell me though, eric, can you not
find these anywhere else in theworld?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
You know, it's like you shoot and fish in a barrel.
I mean, you know, if 80% of theworld's supplies found in a
very specific spot on earth,that's where they're gonna go.
That's where they're gonna go.
And guess what?
The synthetic version oftantalum, which is man-made, is
more expensive.
Wow, and that's why it's notused.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Wow, wow.
So are these consideredconflict minerals?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
100%, okay, 100%.
So Congo is unstable Andbasically, i think some of these
factions use that resource todestabilize further the area.
Obviously, they're the onespaying miners pittance to go in
(13:28):
and tear this material out.
It's not the everyday person'sfault.
It's a very complex issue, onethat.
But I mean you can't blame iteveryday person in Congo for not
trying to make a living Correct, right, right, you can't.
I mean, i understand that.
But these mining companies aremaking ridiculous amounts of
money, you know, withpartnerships with electronics
(13:50):
companies.
["minerals"].
Speaker 1 (14:03):
So, knowing that this is the place to get these
minerals, and this is allhappening mostly in Eastern
Congo, correct, right, and thegorilla had to Right, where all
the gorillas are, of course,okay, so conflict minerals.
So is there such a thing, thenHow can we get to conflict-free
minerals?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Man, that's the billion trillion dollar question
.
my mom that's been for a longtime And is that?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
would that be then saying let's say, for example
then like a gorilla, a gorillasafe phone.
I mean, is that where thatcertification potentially comes
from?
Does it stem back to the actualsource of where all these
minerals are coming from, themining?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
part.
I think it's really complexbecause there's multiple ways
you've got to approach theproblem.
One, and it was just mentioned,you have to get people to want
a product that doesn't harmgorillas Right, it doesn't harm
wildlife.
In order to make them do that,you got to make them care about
the wildlife Right, whichrequires culture change, and
that's very, very difficult.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
But don't you also have to get the consumer to
understand that there's aconnection to the gorillas in
the first place?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Absolutely, and that's why we chose to put our
boxes at the zoo and partnerwith all these wonderful zoos,
because 135 million people inthe United States alone went to
zoos last year Got it Biggestplace, So that's 135 million
different opportunities.
Yes, To talk about that.
That's one.
Two you've got to figure outhow to work with local
(15:30):
populations that live in thosehabitats.
They're doing this because theyneed to make a living.
So and I've heard all kinds ofdifferent ways to ease that,
which everything from ecotourismto getting people involved in
gorilla conservation in thoseareas instead of tearing the
(15:51):
habitats out.
Realizing that a gorilla onplanet Earth is critical, I mean
, it's an amazing thing, Youmust have it, It's a spiritual
thing, Right?
And in order to get thesepopulations to stop mining in
favor of conserving gorillas,well, that's going to take some
doing as well.
Somebody's got to make a living, and I get that.
(16:13):
And three we've talked aboutthis.
I've heard about this onebefore.
Let's talk legislation andthings.
I get it.
Legislation is important and Iunderstand it From the Frank
Dodds Act on it.
I get all this stuff, but wedon't have time to push
legislation that may or may notwork.
I think we've got to be alittle more bold and a little
(16:35):
more aggressive with this thing,And the only way I knew to do
that.
I think the best way to do thatis to push it from the consumer
up.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yes, consumers buy these markets, don't they?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And I talk to kids all the time and you know I look
at them and I go.
You realize they're going tomake the stuff that you want
Right, it never goes.
They're going to make what youwant.
What you want is aenvironmentally friendly,
gorilla, safe cell phone.
They're going to make it Andthey're going to use that as a
competitive advantage.
But they're going to do whatyou say And you've got the power
(17:12):
to make them change.
You know, when you talk to akid that's 12 years old and
they're thinking of you knowSam's under Apple, you know
that's quite a conversation tohave, but it's true, but it's
true.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I never, you know, I never heard this from the
perspective of, you know,pre-consumer, like you mentioned
the pre-consumer education partof it, And I love that.
But, as you know, you just saidwe have to move now.
So what are you and I going todo?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Well, i'm going to continue working with Zeus And
thankfully I've really we'vegotten better at it, believe it
or not after 20 years.
We're starting to work withkeepers now, and that, to me, is
to keepers.
And so a new program isactually coming around And I
really love talking about it.
It's called Gorillaz on theLine And it's a keeper led cell
(18:07):
phone recycling initiative withthese Zeus And they've done an
insanely good job of gettingpeople to recycle cell phones.
That's because when they govisit you know the Gorilla, the
Gorillaz at the zoo.
You've got keepers talkingdirectly to kids about Gorillaz
and what their electronics intheir back pocket have in common
(18:27):
.
And that's where we need thatmessage to be.
We need it to be right there,where you know a kid, a
pre-consumer, can look and watcha Gorilla mother with her
infant and then have a keepersay and that phone that you've
got in your back pocket rightthere, is affecting this animal
that you've seen, that you loveand that you've come back 10
(18:48):
times this summer to see.
And here's what we need you todo to make sure that this
species continues.
I think if we do that enoughtime, i think we got it.
And that's a new program inZeus.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
It's a new program in Zeus, i love it.
Keeper led to boot.
I think that's awesome Keeperled.
The people that really know,gorillaz.
Yes, yes, the people that havethe deepest connection with them
.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yep, yeah, it's deep.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yes, it is, yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Y'all don't have to tell you that though.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yes, it is.
Yeah, I wasn't a keeper, but Ihad a lot of experience with
Gorilla keepers.
So, yes, yes.
So going back to my cell phoneright here, let's say it's time
(19:36):
for it to go away.
I'm going to send it to you.
It's current and Reynoldsalignments.
What do you guess?
Oh, got the gorilla connection.
Okay, we'll figure some more onthat, but tell me, this phone
I'm sending you.
Where's it going?
What's going, what's happeningto it?
I know that people want to knowbecause I don't think, i don't
think this is on the forefrontof people's minds What happens
(19:58):
to my small electronic gadgetsthat I'm saying are getting
recycled, are they?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And It's a great question.
It's a black spot on the mapfor a lot of people because,
you're right, people just don'tunderstand what happens to the
stuff on the back, right.
What does that mean, eric?
Please tell us.
I'll tell you what happens.
I can tell you what we do.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Okay, that's what I need to know, because I'm hoping
people send you their phones.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Okay, so we're that weirdo company, unlike everybody
else, that's really focused onpenetrating the individual on a
public level, right?
So we want to keep that phoneout of the garbage can, out of
the waste stream before it hitsthe waste stream, and bring it
obviously bring the connectionto the wildlife to the forefront
(20:44):
.
Once we receive the phone hereat EcoSell, we make an
evaluation on it, and that firstevaluation is is it so old?
does it have any reuse valuewhatsoever?
Can we reuse it?
And nine times out of 10, theanswer is probably no.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Right, that's a quickly growing industry, isn't
it?
in terms of change?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
It is, and we could dig on deep down into this, but
the point is that most of thewell, so much to talk about, i
can hardly even trip over mytongue.
So we get the phone and we takea look at it and it's pretty
evident.
I mean, if it's an iPhone X, itcan be reused, okay, and we see
(21:23):
iPhone X as we see iPhone 13s,and this is what the 15th of
November 2022.
I mean, that phone came out ayear and a half ago.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
That blows my mind.
That blows my mind that theidea of I have to have that new
phone, This one's perfectly fine, but let's get rid of it.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, usually it makes us pause here, niko Cell
and I hold the phone up and I'mlike I can't believe this.
Right, but it happens.
Mostly we see thosefive-year-old, six-year-old cell
phones that people have justleft in their drawers for a long
time, which makes me thehappiest, the more broken, the
most waterlogged bin in thetoilet, run over by a car,
bedazzled phone that's the one Iwant.
(22:01):
Ah good, because we've alreadymade the connection between
electronics and wildlife and Iknow that's the most likely
candidate to go into thelandfill.
It's so old, nobody cares aboutit anymore.
The battery is insanely toxic.
I want that cell phone.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
OK.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
So we resell the iPhone 13.
I resell that.
I have this auction, basically,And we sell wholesale.
I sell it with the highestbidder.
Make as much money as possibleon that iPhone 13,.
Save some for myself and passeverything over to a guerrilla
conservation organization.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Awesome.
Wait, where is this market?
Who's getting that old phone orthat kind of new old phone?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
And again, this market changes so quickly.
If you'd asked me this questiontwo years ago, I would have
said that market was in HongKong.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
OK.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Nowadays it's more in the United States Interesting
OK.
Ok, and I do want to make apoint here on this one
Electronics in China.
Regarding recycling, a lot ofpeople say oh my god, they're in
burn pits over there, they'rebeing disassembled incorrectly,
kids are dying.
Well, that was true for a while, especially for the larger
(23:18):
electronic items that hadabsolutely no resell, like
remember the big, heavy CRTmonitors.
They weighed 75 pounds apiece.
The big price.
What companies were doing wasthey were sending those to China
and saying that they were beingrecycled.
Well, of course they weren'tproperly Right.
When I resell an iPhone 13 tosomebody in China, that phone
gets reused by a growing middleclass in China, got it?
(23:40):
So everything that I sell isbeing reused.
When I send it to China, a lotof it's being reused here in the
United States.
Now Everything else, which isthe 90% of the stuff remaining,
goes to a company that we vetfor an environmental recycling
accreditation like ISO, r2, orBAN, and we sell those that we
(24:04):
call end of life cell phones tothem.
And that's when the actual,real recycling process begins,
when people understand to berecycling, which is dismantling
it, grinding it up, reclaimingprecious metals from that
material and then sequesteringall the toxins.
That's what happens to the restof the material that we have.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Excellent And I think that's important for people to
understand.
there's an upcycling, meaningthat wonderful kind of new phone
is going to be used by somebodyelse, which is awesome, and
then the recycling part of it,where it's taken apart,
disassembled and taken care ofproperly, environmentally
properly, everything about it isthe right way to do it.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
That's right, and we're sticklers for the
recycling piece of it, becausewe make sure that we get
certificates of recycling.
We make sure that the companiesare certified.
We look through their ISOcertifications.
We want to make sure thatthat's done completely correctly
, because we work with so manyconservation orders that we want
to do it perfectly.
Got it, got it.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
So when I first started working with you many,
many years ago at the zoo herein San Jose, i knew that our
phones were going to you andthese things were happening, and
the market, like you said, itchanges so rapidly.
Then, and it was one of thosethings where the big phone
companies were saying here, buya new phone and bring your old
(25:25):
one in, we'll give you credit orsome kind of discount, and I
thought this is awesome.
This is awesome.
Yes, it took away from what wewere collecting, but it didn't
matter, because I felt thatthose phones were being recycled
as well, the ones that weregoing back to, i guess, the big
companies, yeah, the providers.
Is that the case, though?
Are they being recycledproperly as well?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I don't know firsthand if they are.
I know I've read through someof their websites and I see some
of the lingo that's beingbantered around, and it does
appear that at least the stuffthat's end of life is being
recycled correctly.
I would imagine they do upcyclealmost every single one of the
phones that they take back.
Ok, Which is fine.
Which is fine.
I understand that.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Meaning, eric, that they're being reused?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
correct, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
So when you?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
send your iPhone 12 in to a provider.
they say that they're going togive you a brand new phone,
which they do, and they lease itback to you and then they
resell the old phone that you'vegiven them, for sure Got it.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
All right, so this is a good thing.
And again, part of the disposalprocess of a cell phone, let's
say that one that's insomebody's drawer for six years
ends up in a landfill.
Okay, tell me why?
No point, that's why it's bad.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Inside that.
the piece by far that's themost critical in this is the
battery.
I mean, it's just filled withheavy metal toxins arsenic acid,
lead, you name it.
it's in there.
And what happens?
if it makes it to the landfilljust through natural cooling
cycles, winter, whatever itmight be water leaching into it,
the casing around that's goingto disintegrate And eventually
(27:10):
those toxins are going to getreleased into the environment
and they're eventually going totrickle down into our aquifer.
And now we've got heavy metalsin our environment.
That's what's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
So phones are either being so, if they're not
recycled, they end uppotentially in the landfills,
and what happens what you justsaid?
or aren't some of them beingincinerated as well?
And isn't that I mean in termsof trash?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
go ahead.
The solid waste that Iunderstand goes to the landfill.
That's as I understand it Now,if it's being burned 10 times
worse.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Okay, that's what I was thinking as well, but yeah,
i don't know that.
I wanted to hear that from you.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, no, god forbid, it's being vaporized.
One thing that we've notcovered in.
Again, we can dig in this.
We can talk for four more hours, i promise you I know we could,
(28:10):
but I mean, i think they'retalking nowadays about the
return on these black rectangles.
They've kind of hit a spotwhere how many more black
rectangles are they going to beable to market to people?
Because this one's got twocameras on it, this one's got
three.
And you're asking me to turn inmy old cell phone.
Honestly, god, i think thecustomer might be getting a
(28:33):
little more sophisticated thanthe marketing effort to sell a
new cell phone.
I'd heard that one, which gaveme great hope.
Actually, what does that meanexactly then?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
So where are we going ?
So that enticement to get thelatest.
should we be recording this?
That enticement to get thelatest and greatest?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Well, that got my curiosity hackles up.
It really did.
It was just like wait a second,hold on.
You're right, the shape of acell phone really hasn't changed
that much at all.
I've seen people arguing aboutwhich cell phone's better.
Somebody will pull up blackrectangle out It's four inches
long and six inches wide orwhatever it is And another
person will do the same thingAnd I see the same black
(29:15):
rectangle.
One might have a slightlybetter camera in it.
One might have a juju beanoperating kernel, which I don't
even know what that is.
Anyway, you know, i'm justmaking it up.
I mean, like, the point is,when do I become less excited
about a cell phone?
And I think we're kind ofgetting there a little bit.
(29:39):
I'm hearing talk about phonesthat are dumb phones now being
actual marketing ideas, and wejust had a company that's making
a dumb phone.
I want to recycle with this anda dumb phone being it doesn't
do social media.
All it has on it is a way toget texts and calls and maybe a
(30:00):
map or something, a GPS map, andthat's it.
Because people are realizing isthis phone really this
beneficial to me?
I mean, it's taking up all mybrain cycles Before I go to bed.
I look at it for two hours.
It's now 12 o'clock at night.
The blue light's killing me.
I don't sleep well.
Social media is making meanxious.
It looks like a black rectangle.
(30:21):
I can't tell the differencebetween this one and the S that
I had earlier, which is now 13months old.
I think the return on this ideais becoming.
The balloon was off the rose, alittle bit more than it used to
be Interesting.
Well, I mean, you take the leapbetween a flip phone and a
smartphone, and that leap isgigantic One you can't even text
on it.
It doesn't have a smart screenon it, And the one in the
(30:46):
smartphone?
it looks like wizardry comparedto it.
Well, we've been stuck in thisblack rectangle thing for a long
time.
What is the next iteration oftechnology that's going to
excite people, Because going toa triple slow-mo camera might
not be doing it anymore.
So I think what you've seen insome of the usage patterns, I
(31:06):
think you're changing a littlebit.
I think this is one of thefirst years where they've sold
less cell phones than they didthe previous year.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I know So and I dare say that just about anybody you
talk to think social media isactually a healthy thing,
healthy, right, healthy.
I don't think too many peoplethink it's healthy anymore.
At first it was intoxicatingand it still isn't.
It still isn't intoxicating,but do you really need it in
your back pocket telling you howlive your life every second of
(31:37):
your day, right, right?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
So I think there's a backlash coming.
So the shift is starting andthe shift, then, of course, will
be to the benefit of theenvironment and the population
and in the world.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
That's right.
The hairs are up on my armthinking about the idea.
So I'm sitting here thinking tomyself well, maybe the consumer
is a bit more sophisticated,because when you give somebody
magic, my God, that's incredible.
But if you live with it for awhile, all of a sudden you're
like well, this is not asincredible as I thought it was.
In fact, my life might bebetter by unplugging a little
bit.
I love it, i love it.
(32:14):
I do too.
I mean, let's just face it, ithink life is richer without a
cell phone in your back pocket.
I have literally been upsetwith myself when I lose a cell
phone and I'm seriously panickedAnd I hate that feeling.
I can't live with my cell phonefor without an hour.
You know what I?
Speaker 1 (32:32):
mean Being connected to it, to that little I like
that.
I've never heard thatexpression though a little black
rectangle.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
And I've got so many of them here in the office and I
recycle so many and I'verecycled I can't tell the
difference half the time I'msitting here looking at it.
You know you got to look up theIMEI number and the difference
between an iPhone 13 and aniPhone 12.
I mean, is one gram weightsdifference?
I mean I've got a scale here,literally electronic scale.
That's how we identify some ofthese iPhone models.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
You weigh out the phones.
You weigh each phone.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
No, but there's.
some of them are so similar.
The only way you can tell thedifference is the weight.
Oh my gosh, these are Appleproducts And it's just like how
is this?
so?
why is this benefiting me againto go get back into a lease on
a $1,500 smartphone Because Igot another camera or something.
(33:25):
What is this?
So I'm starting to hear somegrumbling and mumbling, which
I'm actually pretty excitedabout.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
That's good, because you would be the pulse, you
would have the pulse of it.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, right, it's changed.
I've seen the whole thing, frombrick phones and bag phones all
the way up to iPhone 14.
No, in one part that we didn'ttalk about, which I'm interested
in too two things how to solvea gorilla problem.
And if I'm Tim Cook at Appleand I get a conversation with
(33:57):
him and he knows my family, iknow his family I'm like well,
number one, let's design a cellphone that takes into accounts
being able to modularize it, sowhen you come out with a new
camera, i can just get thecamera.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I don't have to get a whole new phone.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
I can gradually upgrade what I've got my current
housing Right Why do I have tohave a whole new thing?
The second thing is, ratherthan they've been purposefully
avoiding talking about theenvironmental liability of a
piece of a technology, why don'twe lean into it?
Let's lean into it.
(34:34):
Let's not only talk about itbecause it's going to come out.
Let's put a slip inside ofevery cell phone that we sell.
We sell 200 million cell phonesa year.
Let's put a little slip inthere that says would you like
to help mitigate the gorillaplight?
would you like to donate to theGorilla Conservation Fund?
If?
so, and this is why, this is whythere's this connection there
(34:57):
And this is why And Apple'sdoing its very best, which I
think Apple's out in front ofthings way more than everybody
else is.
but we need more help, and weneed more help from you guys.
So, everybody, when you sign upfor our cell phone service or
Verizon or whoever it is, here'san opportunity to donate $5.
Right, i'll bet you, we couldraise a billion dollars for
(35:19):
Gorilla Conservation that way inthe United States every year.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Right back to the Are you starting these
conversations?
Speaker 2 (35:27):
I don't have any contacts in the provider world.
Everybody wants to talk to me.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
I had a similar experience.
I was trying to follow a singleuse plastic bottle to.
Somebody, threw it out theirwindow, went down the creek.
Where did it go?
You know as it went to getrecycled, you know, so to speak,
and I wanted to get.
I wanted to see what happenedto it at the recycling plant,
and I can't get anybody to talkto me.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Oh, imagine that.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Imagine that So.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I can love.
I can love.
That's okay.
I get a lot.
I actually got a lot ofinterest from grad students at a
few universities that want totalk about cell phones, which I
think is fantastic, and theyalways come to me and they
always say the same thing.
I try to get in touch with theproviders.
They won't talk to me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And I'm like, yeah, they don't want, they don't want
to talk to you.
Yeah, they don't want some ofthose secrets out And I
understand it from I think Iunderstand it from a business
perspective.
but I like that what you justsaid lean into it, let's lean
into it because we have to facethis problem.
So let's all put our collectivelean into it and face the
problem.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
And I think it's a marketing opportunity for them
too.
And I don't think they fullyunderstand this, with climate
change going on like it is andpeople finally understanding
that it's happening And I thinkit's I think they're
understanding this because theirinsurance records are going up
or they can't get insuredanymore.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
So connections to that makes it personal to them.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Personal.
It's kind of hidden on the wall, yes And so, and this is what's
happened, and they're finallylike, well, you know, you're
right, the climate really ischanging.
Talk to them five years earlier.
Not, you're not going to getanywhere with them, but hit them
in the pocketbook and you'relike all of a sudden you're like
, well, shoot, we got to dosomething about this, right?
But I think it's going tobecome an opportunity for
companies to differentiatethemselves environmentally And I
(37:17):
think that time is coming,hopefully soon, thank you.
But I am seeing some movementin that direction, which I'm
happy about.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
That's great news.
I mean that's great news And Idon't want to end.
I like this because we're notending with the doom and gloom
of it all.
We've already talked that,we've touched on that, and I
like the idea that we've talkedabout things that people can do
and resources out there forfolks, and I highly recommend
(37:47):
going to eco-cellorg to get moreinformation, and I love your
website because it's not toocomplicated.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I'm glad you say that .
I love it, because they askedme to come out and talk to some
kids at the Louisville Zooduring their summer camps.
And invariably I go out therethe first couple of years and
I'm just blowing them away withinformation, right, and their
eyes are glassing over and I'mlike, oh man, this might not be
the right approach.
I go in there the next time andI take a cell phone and stomp
on it on the floor and crack itopen And I'm like you see all
(38:18):
that stuff inside of it, allthat stuff that looks like gold.
Well, that's gold.
And then they freak out.
So you have to be careful.
Like you said, too muchinformation sometimes is not a
good thing.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yes, so information's good, but yes, a little bit's
here and there, a little bit'shere and there, otherwise, you
get overwhelmed.
So go to Eric Eco-Cell's website.
I can't recommend or you knowit's coming from the zoo world
Get involved with your local zoo.
They are doing amazing thingsfor conservation far beyond what
(38:51):
you see when you walk throughthe gate And all you have to do
is ask.
It's there.
If you don't want to go totheir website, go to the keepers
.
Go to the people that workthere.
They would love to tell you allthe cool stuff that's happening
.
In particular, i think thegorilla keepers Especially.
I love this Gorillas on theLine program.
I think this is awesome becauseit's their heart.
(39:12):
They show their heart when theytalk about their gorillas.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yep, no nonsense.
Straight to the point.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yep, yep, i had several I didn't know that
moments in the conversation withEric.
Eco-cell is one of the firstrecycling companies that put the
wildlife electronics connectionout to the public and how
technology is impacting wildlife, especially at the mineral
sources in Africa home to thegorillas.
(39:39):
The idea was to make thisconnection for people.
Kind of the same idea that wasthe basis for this podcast to
connect the dots from your phoneto the gorillas and bring some
light and positive into thesituation.
We have a huge amount ofinfluence and impact as
consumers.
(40:00):
We truly drive the markets onproducts.
Wouldn't it be cool If we couldcollectively lean into bringing
a Gorilla Safe cell phone ontothe market?
Thanks for listening and beingpart of the good stuff that's
happening in the world.
Take care, you guys.
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