June 7, 2023 • 53 mins
Have you ever judged someone before truly getting to know them? We sat down with Ronni Abergel, founder of the Copenhagen based The Human Library, to discover how the power of conversation can challenge stereotypes and prejudices. We delved into the importance of understanding diversity and fostering connection through open dialogue with people from diverse backgrounds and experiences.
Ronni shared his insights on navigating grief and the role The Human Library plays in helping those coping with loss. He opened up about his personal journey following the sudden loss of his wife and highlighted the significance of finding comfort from others who have experienced similar situations. We also explored the process of becoming a volunteer "human book" and the ways readers can access these unique stories from all over the world.
In our thought-provoking discussion, we emphasized the value of connecting with people who are different from us and the power of understanding diversity. By hearing and understanding each other's stories, we can foster connection and break down barriers. Don't miss this inspiring episode that will undoubtedly make you say, "Wow! I love this idea!"
The Human Library
Interview with: Ronni Abergel
Things that make you say "Wow"!
For more episodes and additional information visit the Two Chicks and a Hoe website and our Facebook page.
Big thanks to our Producer, Casey Kennedy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Did you ever base the decision to read a book because
you liked the way the coverlooked, or the remarks from
another reader soundedintriguing enough to potentially
pick the book up?
Or you may open a book withpreconceived ideas of what
you're going to read based uponthe cover.
(00:27):
A book's cover in this titlecan sway many people to pick it
up or skip it entirely.
But could the way a personlooks You know their cover Turn
you away from talking to them?
Would you not talk to someonebecause of the way they looked?
Or perhaps a disability?
(00:47):
Or how about the way theydressed?
Hi everybody, it's Vanessa fromTwo Chicks in a Hole, the
podcast that digs deeper intosome amazing topics, and today
(01:10):
we have quite a fascinatingtopic.
I'm very excited And we'regoing to be chatting with Ronnie
Abergale, the founder of theHuman Library, which is creating
opportunities to challengestereotypes and prejudices
through dialogue A chance tounjudge someone.
Welcome, ronnie.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, great to be here, Vanessa.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, you know, I told a lot of people about the
Human Library and the concept ofit And I got a lot of wows.
I got a lot of wows and a lotof interest.
They had never heard of such aproject, Oh damn.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I'm out of fire.
My promoter right now.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I almost didn't want to say that, but I just thought,
you know, this is cool, this isa great reason.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Let me tell you why we're such a great kept secret.
But first remind me we got toneed get your t-shirt size,
because you're already promotingus.
You need some visual help.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I would love that.
I would love that.
I want to talk to you too,about you know, listeners, we're
going to talk about thepotential of bringing the Human
Library.
It's all over the world, butI'm getting ahead of myself.
We'll talk more at the endabout what I really would like
to do with you.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
All right, well, okay , but nothing kinky though.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
No, you never know It is called two chicks in a hole.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
That's why when I told people about that they were
like wow, what's going on there?
That sounds a little.
I said don't get, don't missunder.
My girlfriend was like what areyou doing the next hour?
I said you don't want to know.
She says I do want to know.
I said I'm meeting with twochicks in a hole.
She goes what?
Tell me again, what are youdoing?
I said forget about it, youknow.
But hey, okay, i'll tell youwhy.
(02:52):
We're kind of keeping.
We're not keeping it secret.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Okay, first of all.
first of all, tell thelisteners what is the Human?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Library.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
You know, I've said it kind of a little bit, but
what is it?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
It is a library similar to the one you know from
your community.
The biggest difference is wedon't have any actual, real
books.
We have people that havevolunteered to be an open book
for you, their reader, abouttheir life and lived experience.
So we'll have authentic, thereal deal on our bookshelf.
(03:23):
We'll have a police officer, asex worker, somebody who's
unhoused, somebody who has HIV,somebody who's autistic, bipolar
, schizophrenic, somebody whohas OCD, somebody who's
non-binary, somebody who'stransgender, somebody who has a
visible disability or aninvisible disability, somebody
(03:44):
who has a different orientationor a different religious belief
than yours, somebody who doesn'tbelieve at all, or somebody who
claims to be a Trump supporteror a member of the National
Rifle Association.
So what we'll do is we'll giveyou access to a diversity of
people that are willing toanswer your questions.
They're not going to give you alecture, they're not going to
(04:07):
campaign, they don't have a chipon their shoulder and I promise
you they're not intolerant.
So they're not going to be, youknow, there to say, oh, I hate
this or I just really don't likethat group.
They're there to help youbetter understand their group by
being very honest and open andsay, okay, ask me anything you
want, about my challenge, aboutmy mental health, about my
(04:28):
ethnicity, about my religion,about my job, which can be very
challenging.
I'm a police officer in thiscommunity, or I'm a journalist,
or I'm a politician.
So we've built this conceptwith 15 pillars of prejudice and
from each pillar we draw groupsthat are suffering or to some
extent being not includedbecause of our unconscious bias
(04:52):
or our conscious bias, likebecause we're socially
apprehensive, or because we'refearful, or simply because we're
intolerant towards this group.
We think we know everything weneed to know about them, but did
we ever meet somebody?
Did we ever talk to somebody?
Did we ever, you know, engageand find out what they're all
about?
I realized years ago that it'sdifficult to hate someone once
(05:15):
you know them.
You may disagree with them, Youmay even dislike their point of
view or the lifestyle they have, or you may, you know, it may
really not sit well with you theway they approach certain
things in life, but when you getto know them and you understand
why, it's just much easier tosort of accept.
(05:36):
So sometimes maybe all we needis to overcome that hurdle of
accessibility and get to knowsomebody who is a refugee or
who's an illegal immigrant orwho is, you know, a supporter of
Joseph Biden or of Obama or ofTrump?
and sit down and understand.
Well, dude, you voted twice forthat guy, why, tell me?
(05:59):
Help me understand.
So, rather than stigmatizingpeople and excluding them
because they're obese or becausethey have a certain job we
don't like or they represent areligious group that we're
afraid of or we disagree with,let's meet them first.
Let's meet them before we makeup our mind.
That's.
All we offer is a safe spacefor you to meet some of the most
(06:21):
stigmatized people in ourcommunity.
Victims are bullying, survivorsof domestic abuse, survivors of
suicide, people who have beenleft behind, because you know,
people who live with bereavement, with grief, and who have faced
, you know, losing somebody verydear to them, and it's
(06:42):
something we will all encounterat some point in our life, but
that we really don't like totalk about.
So it's, you know.
In a way, we call themcourageous conversations,
because it takes a little bit ofcourage to actually have a
conversation about somebody'smental health or about the
journey that their life has beenon, or, you know, or losing
(07:02):
somebody dear to you.
So really it's.
In my opinion, the humanlibrary is a safe place where we
could potentially undjudgesomeone.
Because in our library we makethe assumption and I think it's
fair that we all judge, we allmake these calculations all the
time.
It's unavoidable And so we knowthe saying Vanessa, don't judge
(07:26):
a book by its cover, but that'sridiculous.
To say that is kind ofridiculous, because we cannot
stop that.
That's unavoidable.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
That's our human nature, isn't it?
That's in our nature.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It's in our coding.
Imagine a human being as apiece of software.
This is the way our softwareoperates.
This is our algorithm.
We see something, we try todecode it.
We hear something, we try todecode it And we have references
.
We heard about this before.
Maybe we never encounteredsomebody with tattoos all over
their face, but we saw it on aTV show when they were criminals
(08:01):
and they were bikers and theywere.
And then that's our reference,and then we'll put people in
little boxes And in a way, isometimes like to explain that
we all have a little built-inlabel printer and we print
little labels really fast.
We print them so fast we canbarely you know, we barely
reflect.
It's just it's printed.
Oh, i don't like, oh I like.
(08:21):
So sometimes it's very healthyto revisit these judgments, and
that is what we offer.
We offer a safe framing whereyou can walk up to our librarian
in your public library setting,you know, explore the list of
literature that we haveavailable, which will be very
short form bipolar autism, adhd,homeless, unhoused, hiv, victim
(08:48):
of bullying, victim of incestone of the greatest tapos that
we carry.
Like that's a conversationnobody wants to have, and so you
can sort of be like, wow, thistriggers me.
Male chauvinist, oh my goodness, do they really exist?
Let me get that.
Or member of the NRA orsomething, so something where we
(09:08):
can help qualify your judgment.
Okay, i gotta say it.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I gotta say it, say it, wow, you got me in the first
sentence.
Wow, that is amazing, amazingYeah.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
In the time that we live in that is so polarized.
Yes, i think it's even moreneeded now because you know what
, vanessa?
we've been doing this for 23years.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Tell me how did this start?
What is your inspiration forthe beginning of this?
I mean, this is, this issomething, like you just said,
this takes For a person likemyself to check out a book.
That takes courage, you know,whether, whatever, that is
something that you know, i'vebeen fearful of those types of
things, but what kind ofinspiration did you have to
(09:55):
create something like this?
That's the ultimate.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Well, i'm a little bit of an outsider myself, and
so in my community I'm sort ofmixed background.
My father was born in Africa,my mother is Danish, so they can
tell I'm not really.
Well, i don't have much hairleft, but you can tell from my
eyebrows and my beard that I'mnot a blonde person.
And if you get really closehere you can see that I have
brown eyes.
(10:19):
I don't have blue eyes, so I'mnot very Scandinavian.
I mean, as to where I grew upin Denmark and Copenhagen, and I
often would get the questionwhere are you from?
And I'm like, dude, i'm bornhere.
So I would, instead of givethem my sort of country of
origin, i would give them myborough, my neighborhood.
I'd say I'm from the NorthBridge area.
(10:41):
Where are you from?
I love it.
Oh, they'd be like oh, i'm fromthe south side of the city, or
I'm from outside of the city,i'm from the suburbs.
I said I thought I could tellyou had this accent.
No, and so as a child I was alsovery curious about people.
So I'm the type who would pointfingers and pull my mom on her
sleeve and say what's this guyAnd what's this person And why
(11:05):
is this like that, and she wouldalways be like you can't say
that, you can't say that.
She would hush me and she wouldstop me from asking openly,
embarrassed in questions.
But they were all curiositybased.
Nothing evil there, justcurious about people who are
different.
And in my early youth I sort ofshied away from this because I
(11:25):
made quick judgments myself AndI cut myself off from a lot of
opportunity by not having thechance to let these people into
my life, simply by putting themin the wrong boxes.
So navigating diversity is notalways easy, especially if you
don't have a lot of confidenceor a reference.
If you live in a sort ofcommunity where everybody is the
(11:46):
same, when you come out of thatcommunity you're going to see a
big diversity and you'll be alittle bit anxious to start.
Yes, i'm great, i'm like, oh,whoa, these people are from all
over the world And it's likeimagine living in upstate New
York somewhere and then comingdown to New York City or living
in Arkansas and coming to LosAngeles And you'd be like, whoa,
(12:07):
this is different And soadapting and relaxing, letting
your shoulders get down,trusting in your fellow man is
not always easy, and especiallyif you don't have a reference if
all you heard was potentiallyeven politicians talking bad
about somebody.
So I thought, hey, what wouldhappen if we gave all the people
that we judged a platform andopportunity to explain who they
(12:32):
were, so that we may, we may,judge them again, but now on a
more qualified basis, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Because of information.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Exactly.
Now.
I have the information from you, i know why you're doing what
you're doing And I completelydisagree, but I understand,
right.
So bringing that back to thetable and it's sort of a.
It's a cornerstone of democracy, respecting our right to
disagree with each other and bedifferent.
We don't all have to be thesame.
(13:00):
If we were all the same, itwould be so incredibly dull and
boring And we all be standing inline at Chick-fil-A, wouldn't
we?
And the line would be mileslong because we're all the same.
We're all looking for chickenon a Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
True, so true, yep.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
So I thought, hey, let's try this.
And then my friends at theorganization where it works said
, okay, that sounds like areally strange but a crazy idea.
Wow, let's do it.
And we did, and it turned outthat it really you know it works
.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Well, this doesn't sound like the kind of library
where they used to go.
Shh be quiet.
This sounds like my kind oflibrary, where you talk a lot
and ask a lot of questions.
Who was your?
Speaker 2 (13:42):
first book Well, my first book, in the sense, the
first book that I recruited forthe human library.
That was a boy I saw at a busstop with his girlfriend.
So the boy had a mohawk, he hadpiercings all over his face, He
had tattoos And he was what Iwould call either a member of
the punk community like sexpistols you know people who
(14:06):
listen to punk music or he wasbody modified Today we'd call
him body modified Right And thekid was about 16 years old, and
so this was like the same day asI had the idea of walking down
the street in Copenhagen And Isee this kid across the street
at the bus stop and I justcrossed the street and I walked
over to him and I said look, youdon't know me.
(14:26):
My name's Ronnie.
I want to publish you as anopen book.
We're going to this festivalthis summer.
Would you want to be an openbook?
And the guy said can you ask mymom?
And I said sure, i'll call yourmom.
I love it.
This is great.
I called his mom and she saidthis sounds really cool.
Does he want to go?
I said yeah, david wants to go.
(14:48):
David was my first book, butthen I really started reaching
out to people I knew, you know,like built a list of everybody.
I knew who could be.
You know, i knew somebody whohad Muslim background.
I knew somebody with Jewishbackground.
I knew somebody who came fromKurdistan as a refugee.
I knew somebody who ran awayfrom war in Bosnia and in the
former Republic of Yugoslavia Sothey were like refugees,
(15:11):
internally displaced.
And so I just made a list, andso did all my team members, and
all of a sudden we had more than75 different topics on our
bookshelf, wow, wow.
And even the Copenhagen policegave us four police officers
said we'll give you one cop eachday.
So Thursday a policeman Friday.
(15:31):
Another man came Saturday andSunday.
So for each day.
We were open at the originalevent back then, which was a
four day event at a festivalright And this is a face to face
event.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
This is face to face down, face to face with your
book.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
That's what you do.
I mean now you can also do itdigitally, you can also
available online, but until preCOVID we're mostly available in
person, as we call it, which isface to face, and you could do
one on one or you could sharewith your wife, with your
partner, with your friend, withyour children, and go sit
somewhere and sort of meetsomebody with an eating disorder
(16:07):
and ask their advice.
Meet somebody who overcame, youknow, tremendous adversity And
maybe you could be inspired fromthat.
Or meet somebody where youthought that, hey, you thought
you knew everything about Muslimpeople, but when you meet this
Muslim you're going to learnsomething new, right and help
qualify your opinion, maybe,maybe dismantle some of our fear
(16:29):
or apprehension about somebody.
I mean, imagine a communitywhere everybody knew each other
better And, even though we werenot all the same, we respected
each other's rights to bedifferent.
Would you feel safer in thecommunity like that?
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely So.
It's quality of life and that'sit.
(16:50):
This is about quality of life.
And for the people who arebeing understood, i mean,
imagine your whole life beingmisunderstood because of that
thing on your face or because ofyour hair color or your ethnic
group or your religion.
And here's the chance toexplain what it means to you And
for somebody to understand.
It's so basic humanity here.
(17:11):
It's like humanity 101.
We all need to be understood.
So when one of my colleaguessaid but Ronnie, why would
somebody who had, you know, adisability and had a difficult
time in their life because ofthat, why would they volunteer
to come and talk about somethingso difficult, or about a mental
health situation which is kindof taboo, or about their
(17:32):
orientation They might be nonbinary or bisexual or gay or
whatever I said.
Look, imagine being the victimof hate crimes, people hating on
you, you being afraid of otherpeople's reactions when they
find out who you are, or you'vehad to run away from situations.
Imagine a chance of redemptionto stand up and say this is who
(17:55):
I am.
Ask me anything, because we'llcreate a protected space.
So it's been an incrediblejourney.
We're more than 80 countries.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I was so.
80 countries And what is themost frequently asked for a book
.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I think there is a large.
There's a large ask worldwidefor topics that help us better
understand our mental health.
Yeah, so if I was to identifysomething that the commonality
amongst us.
That's it.
But so if you were in India,you might have other issues,
(18:33):
secondary or third degree topicsthat are relevant for the
community in India.
Of course, when you're in LosAngeles it's a completely
different conversation, Buteverywhere we go, mental health
is a big ass, big ass.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Wow, okay, all right, so you said it already.
You've said the word taboo acouple of times and I have that
written down.
What's that taboo subject thatI?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
think there are many, and I think from society, from
community, community, they vary,but to give you some obesity.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
That's quite a taboo, and it's some of the books that
we really lack.
We have a lot of peoplerepresenting Jews, muslims,
trans, non binary mental health,obesity.
They're not as common on ourbookshelf because we shame them.
Wow, they're sort of put toshame.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
So that's a different let me understand this, Ronnie.
So that's a different kind ofshame than I have body
modifications, or I Well, that'smore intolerance.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
That's more intolerance.
Maybe you're disgusted by whatthe person did to themselves.
Maybe you're intolerant.
You're like I would never hireyou because you've got all these
piercing and tattoos on yourface.
So that's intolerance.
Where obesity is people.
I think some people are ashamedthat they became that big, but
I also think that they feel thatother people are shaming them
(20:10):
And so.
but there are other taboosvictims of bullying, victims of
sexual assaults, victims ofdomestic violence and especially
victims of incest.
This is a topic very, very fewpeople are comfortable talking
about, but you do have booksthat are willing?
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yes, we have books that are willing, and those
books are checked out.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
They're in high demand.
I bet okay.
They're in high demand.
We just don't have a tremendousamount of them to meet the
demand, because once they'rethere, people really they're
like wow, they don't have anopportunity to talk to somebody
about this.
And there's a lot more of itthan we think.
There's a lot more people thathave been abused in their
(20:55):
childhood than we would think of.
So we're surprised that thewe're surprised at how much draw
or pull this thing has.
So these are much neededconversation and they even have
a cathartic effect for some.
You know I'll tell you ananecdote that one married couple
in their late 40s came to usand they'd driven like 35 miles
(21:19):
Cause they heard on the radiowe're hosting an event on the
island where they lived, and sothey drove to the session, which
was bar, from where they lived,and said we really want to
borrow this victim of incest.
And when they borrowed her,they started the conversation by
saying look, there's a veryspecific reason why we asked for
you.
And so they, and so our booksaid okay, what's that reason?
(21:43):
Well, we recently found outthat our daughter, who is now 27
, was abused by the wife'slittle brother When she was only
13.
So she had developed an eatingdisorder.
She had attempted suicide, alot of bad things that happened
(22:03):
to her.
From that moment on, she haddeteriorated on the personal
level and they didn't understandwhat happened.
Only 14 years later that theyunderstand what had happened to
their child, and so the brotherhad admitted, the wife's little
brother had admitted to whathe'd done, and they came to ask
(22:25):
our books advice.
What can we do?
We live in a small community.
If this comes out, the stigmawill be unbearable.
Everybody will talk about itAnd our family will be forever
stigmatized by this.
And secondarily well, probablymore important how do we handle
this that we call the cops?
(22:45):
And more important for them?
they said we really need youradvice.
What can we do to support ourchild now?
What can we do now?
So who are we to judge whatpeople wanna use the space for?
I hope they use it to learn.
I hope they use it to explorehumanity and find answers to
(23:06):
questions that aren't easilyfound or things we can't ask
about at home.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
You know, I was gonna ask you what the goal is of the
human library and you have justsaid it.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
But is ideally, it's creating understanding between
fellow, our fellow human beings.
The moment we identify witheach other, the moment we
understand each other and beginto accept each other, that is
when all wars end.
That's beautiful.
That is when you're not gonnafight somebody that you know.
in that way, you might get intoa fight with somebody, but it's
(23:39):
very difficult to hate onsomebody that you have an
understanding for.
So, in a way, i like to look atit as if we're gluing people
together.
People that are disconnectedfrom each other are being
re-glued, reconnected in aframing that's really safe and
they can walk out of there andthey will not be canceled for
(24:00):
not using the right language.
They don't have to be afraidthat they're not woke or this or
that.
At this place, all you have tobe is courageous enough to
follow your curiosity and askthe questions that are on your
mind.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I was wowed and moved And I wanna repeat the idea
that Ronnie mentioned The momentwe understand each other and
begin to accept each other isthe moment when all wars end.
Wow, wow And amazingly it worksfor both the book and the
(24:41):
reader, doesn't it?
And I had read somewhere onyour website as well that one of
the requirements was is thatboth parties come back
untathered, and I love that.
That whole idea of don't bendthe pages, don't rip the pages,
don't mess up the cover, takecare of the book.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
That's very true, vanessa.
We ask very simple ground rulesof engagement here.
Bring the book back on time,just like at your regular
library.
Don't be late.
Somebody else could be waitingfor it.
Librarians will help you.
Treat the book with the samerespect you wanna be treated.
Don't take it home.
(25:20):
Don't tear out pages, right, soliterally caretaker for this
person as you would wanna becaretaken for yourself, and then
everything's gonna be fine.
But be bold, go deep, ask verypersonal questions And if you
ask something that's very muchoff topic, let's say you're
volunteering to talk aboutpersonal grief, that happened
(25:43):
and the loss you had.
Maybe your dog got hit by a carGod forbid.
But let's say that happened Andyou're struck and you're hurt
by this.
You're in grief.
Nobody understands.
people are telling you Vanessa,get out of here, get out of
here.
What's wrong with you, right,right, but nobody can understand
how much you love that dog.
(26:05):
Even people that got a dog areon their second or third dog.
This is your first dog.
You just really you miss thisdog and you're being sort of
pushed to move on.
Maybe it would be great for youto have a conversation with
somebody who's also handledgrief and figure out how do I
handle this?
(26:26):
How do I learn to live withwhat's happened to me And how do
I get over it?
in the sense that you're notgonna get over it, but you're
gonna learn to live with it, yougotta live your life still And
maybe in the future one day haveanother dog.
So I think what's importanthere is that we allow ourselves
to be human and to feel thethings that we need to feel and
(26:48):
talk to people about it, andthat has a really cathartic
effect and it's helpful, i haveto tell you.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I never thought of.
so I understand all the otherbooks that you've kind of
described earlier, but the ideaof grief they're actually
talking to somebody about grief,oh yeah, and potentially
helping them through thatprocess.
I lost my husband a few yearsago and it has taken me many,
many years Still.
do you ever get over it?
(27:15):
I don't know, but those typesof things.
I didn't realize that I couldpotentially be of help to
someone else to get throughsomething like that.
You can.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
You can look next month, next month, in about a
little bit less than a month.
Yeah it'll be 10 years since mywife died in my arms.
Okay, yeah, okay.
She passed away suddenly in abalcony in Spain from a heart
valve collapsed while we're onholiday.
She was 37 years old.
The children were sleeping.
(27:47):
They didn't see them on time,okay, and people were like they
don't know what to say Exactly.
So they don't say anything, soit's like it didn't happen,
which it didn't exist.
It makes it a lot more painful.
And at my workplace they saidtake all the time you need.
(28:09):
Back then I wasn't workingfull-time for the human library,
i was doing my job as ajournalist, working creating
documentary films, and actuallyI was working on a very big
climate film about globalheating and how we could save
the climate.
It's a movie called CarbonCrooks.
It came out 10 years ago.
It came out.
(28:29):
It's a very nice film.
But they said take as much timeas you want.
And after three weeks theystarted calling me, asking me
when I was coming back.
At that time we had not yetgotten the body back from Spain
because of some legal measures.
So they had not.
We'd not received her.
She was not.
She had not been buried yet.
(28:50):
And I said you know what?
I want you to give my positionto somebody else, because I
cannot tell you when I'm comingback.
I can't.
Right now I'm not eating.
I lost two pounds a week, 17weeks straight.
I came all the way down to 68kilos, which is 140 pounds or
less, and I was a prettyheavy-set guy at the time And it
(29:14):
was terrible.
I couldn't sleep, i couldn'teat.
It was the most horrible timeof my life.
And nobody were able not very,very few.
Nobody is a tough word.
I don't want to judge everybody, but very, very few was able to
relate and understand And youknow who understood other people
that had lost.
That's where I found comfort.
That's where I foundconsolation and understanding,
(29:37):
and it's such a personal and Idon't know You.
Just, we must find a wayforward.
We must find a way to live withthe person we lost and the love
we had And find a way tocomfort ourselves and enjoy life
again and start eating againand be somebody in life.
But you know what?
The other people around us mustbe better at understanding how
(30:00):
challenging and difficult thisis, because they made it worse.
So I ended up not going out fortwo years Because I didn't know
.
People didn't know what to say.
They were like I have no words.
I said what do you think I am?
If you have no words, then howthe hell do you think I feel?
And then other people were liketell me if there's anything I
can do to help.
I said you know what, if I callyou for help, you're just going
(30:22):
to be uncomfortable.
So you know, don't offer whatyou can't really give me.
Because when I called they werelike I'm sorry, i'm busy, i
can't help right now, but it'sright now I need to help.
So it's like people are, theydon't know at work, they don't
know in your friend circles.
They want to, they want to try,but they're just it's difficult
(30:43):
for them to talk about also, Sothey say nothing.
And it made it worse.
And so we put I put grief on thebookshelf after my loss.
I said I can't believe thestigma I faced.
First of all, i lost number two.
The whole social burden is nowon me.
I have to make people that Imeet that know I lost.
I have to make them feelcomfortable.
(31:05):
Yes, this is what I call onthat And I say it's not my
social obligation to make youfeel comfortable with what
happened to me.
It cannot be.
There's something really wrongwith that.
That's like I have to bringcake to the office when it's my
birthday.
It's my birthday, you shouldget me a cake.
What the hell is wrong with you?
(31:26):
I mean, this is the reverse wayof being human beings.
We forgot something veryimportant there And that's
hurtful to those of us who lost.
So I put bereavement on thebookshelf, hoping to help
educate.
I have been published as anopen book on bereavement.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
And it's checked out.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yes, oh, are you kidding?
Indeed, it's checked out everytime And it's very much
appreciated.
And this guy we've got awonderful book in the UK who's
helping us do this.
James, we change a lot, but Ifound a couple of grief sisters
that helped me on my road, andthey were years ahead, vanessa.
One had lost seven years beforeme, one had lost, sorry, four
(32:05):
years before me, and so wheneverI would encounter something, i
could call them and say, hey, doyou guys recognize this?
And they were like, yeah, yeah,sure, relax, here's what you
got to, here's what you can do,or this is natural, what you're
feeling, this is what theprocess is.
Yes, it's like they've watchedthe first four seasons of this.
I didn't.
I'm still on episode two, rightOne.
(32:26):
So really helpful And we canhelp each other.
But for people who never lost,it's very difficult to fathom,
and so I wanted them to haveaccess.
And one of my readers, dan, inWashington DC.
He will live with me forever,so he borrowed me at the
international monetary fund,which is an incredible place in
(32:47):
the heart of Washington.
We're publishing our booksthere as part of a corporate
event.
We also do corporate events,and so one of our great books
there had to step out because ofa meeting.
She got called to a meeting, awork meeting at the fund.
It was one of the books that wehad recruited at the fund And
so she stayed only for the firsttwo readings and for the.
For the third reading I had tostep in, and so I sat at this
(33:10):
table and one of my readers, Dan.
He said a lot of smart thingsat that time, but he asked me a
question that I'll never forget.
He said, ronnie, when you knewyour wife had a bad heart, why
did you go on vacation in Spain?
Hmm, and I'm like, when heasked it, it hit me like a fist
(33:30):
in the stomach And he told memaybe I'm not really ready to
talk about this the way I felt Iwas ready.
I thought I was ready.
This was four years in, but butit hit me because, yeah, why
the hell did we go to Spain whenwe knew she had a bad heart?
Speaker 1 (33:47):
But that was, that was part of that conversation
then, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (33:50):
It was, and so I did.
I tried to answer theconsiderations and it was my
40th birthday and we got thegift.
We had the trip as a gift formy parents And you know she'd
had a heart condition since shewas nine, so we were not
expecting her to drop dead likethat.
Doctors underestimated theseriousness of her condition,
which is just really a tragedyfor me, for my kids, for her,
(34:12):
for all of us, for the wholefamily.
But it was it was.
It stayed with me.
And after that I got a letterfrom Dan said Ronnie, i've met a
lot of people in my life, butyou probably are one of the
richest people I've ever met.
And I looked at myself and Iknow my bank account is not full
.
So I understood that there'sdifferent riches out there.
And it's understanding yourfellow man Yeah, being able to
(34:36):
understand or be understood.
What is more rewarding thanbeing understood?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Very little.
It's like it's heard, isn't it?
It's like being heard, yes, andseen for who you are.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Exactly, very Okay.
So we got to bring the mood up.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
And we got to bring the balance Right on the edge
here.
This is good, So okay.
So this is to my next questionthen How do you become a book?
Maybe I want to.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
You could volunteer through our website.
You could fill in anapplication, a motivated
application that says you knowwhat's your experience, what
kind of issues or livedexperiences do you think could
be a value to your readers, whatkind of biases or stigma
prejudice have you faced thatyou can help us understand?
And so, in this sense, youvolunteer through the website.
(35:24):
We then screen your application, invite you to an orientation.
If you're still motivated, youget onto this let's call it a
book portal, where you train tobe a book.
You're going to watch sometutorials.
That explains the methodology.
There are some exercises you'regoing to do to identify your
content And then you're going tocome to a reading exam, just
(35:46):
like high school.
You come to the exam And thenwe're going to publish you.
After that, we'll take you ontoour bookshelf and we'll invite
you to come out to events atpublic libraries and high
schools and colleges and campusand universities and workplaces,
even festivals.
And you know, some of our booksget to go great places because
they're near something that'swonderful, what's happening, and
(36:08):
others are publishing morevirtually because they're at a
distance.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, i was going to ask you So.
so here I live in the NorthernCalifornia, the Bay Area.
We've got a book depot in theBay Area.
I was going to ask because Ican't find it, but I didn't look
well enough.
So you mean a book depot whereyou can physically go as a book
or virtually?
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Both.
We have a book depot which is abook collection for the Bay
Area.
Okay, they were at eBay justthis earlier this week.
Oh, okay, Yeah, okay, some ofthe books went to eBay to
publish for a small group ofreaders at eBay in San Jose this
week A private event And soon,yeah, soon there's an event soon
(36:51):
.
There's an event coming up inthe public space, but there are
also events coming up with a.
Is it Kimpton hotels?
So Kimpton hotel has theirheadquarters in San Francisco?
Okay, and so we're going to goand do something for the
leadership of Kimpton hotel.
I don't have the date right now.
I think it got pushed back, butit was supposed to be May, so
now it might be June or July,but I know we're going to the
(37:13):
headquarters of Kimpton.
But basically you're part of acommunity group there.
It starts with getting you addedinto the book depot Once you're
trained as a book and you'revetted and you've signed your
volunteering agreement and yourpromise not to disclose
different stuff mostly what youlearn from readers, which is
right.
Right, it's a confidentialconversation, right, we don't
(37:34):
want you outing readers ortrying to get somebody canceled,
and we don't want them outingyou either.
We want you to be able to havea confidential conversation
about important issues, right?
So look at the paperwork out ofthe way.
We add you to the book depotAnd once you're in there, you're
going to get differentinvitations.
You're going to get invitationsto join us online, to be
(37:57):
published on zoom.
You will going to get aninvitation to join our software
where you can publish on demand,which means let's say that you
have Let's, let's just I knowyou're not anymore, but let's
say that you were a soccer momAnd so you had soccer and stuff.
You need to go to all week withyour kids, which are now
probably quite big kids.
They go on their own, but ifyou were still having small kids
(38:20):
, then you have to take these.
Oh, you got that Starbucks binthere, cup.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
I do, and it's a California one.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
I got a New York and Columbia and Nashville I collect
those, i do too, but okay, ilove them.
Okay, we'll Starbucks aside,but okay.
So what you would get is youwould get different publishing
opportunities offered to you andthen you can sort of choose
what's with your calendar.
When could you be available?
There's, you know, mountainView Public Library.
(38:54):
There's what's it calledFoothill College.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Hi for your area.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yeah, that's it.
So there are different partnersthat we work with that invite
us to come out and publish, andso we'll post those in the book
depot and say, hey, who could beavailable to come with us to
Foothill College on this?
This is the date, got it, andthen, if it suits you, you join.
If it doesn't suit you, you canjoin.
And then on the software whichis the greatest thing that we've
(39:21):
done recently is you couldactually log on and say, hey, i
got soccer Tuesday, thursday,i'm not doing anything Wednesday
, i'm going to be availableWednesday, and so Wednesday you
put yourself on the software andyou say, wednesday, at 4pm East
Pacific time, i could bepublished and my topic will be
(39:41):
breamant.
And so anybody who wants totalk about this can book me or
join my session, and if at leasttwo readers joined the session,
it's on one on one.
We don't do in the virtual space, because if somebody is not
polite, we don't have a witnessthere.
Yeah, okay, we don't want toleave you for psychological
safety, and it's not that ithappens, right?
(40:03):
Maybe that's why it doesn'thappen for psychological safety,
as there are no librarians inthe room, we want you to have at
least two readers with youMaximum five, right Got it And
so our readers in the communitywill sign up to learn about this
and they'll join Wednesday at4pm And so that will be a 30
minute session where they get toask you a bunch of questions
(40:24):
and learn from you and betterunderstand people with your
story and background andexperience And so and then you
can come back next Wednesday anddo it all over again, or do it
every other Wednesday, or do itone Wednesday a month, depending
on how much time you have.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
So on the website you're in over 80 countries.
But on the website can I go inand say I want to check out a
book from Singapore.
You know it's available.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
No, no, that's not possible.
I'm sorry You can't do that.
Is that for?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
real.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
What you can do is you can't do that, but if you
follow us, if you follow us onsocial media, for example on
Facebook, we will post publiconline events that are hosted
every other Sunday.
Oh, okay, so every other Sundaythere is a big, open Zoom
session where people from 20countries will join and books
(41:17):
from many different countrieswill be on low.
There are also separate Spanishevents going on where the
working language is Spanish,right, so you can join them on
Zoom if you're a Spanish speaker, and then you'd get books from
Peru, from Spain, from Colombia,from you know you'd get.
From Mexico, you get differentbooks.
In fact, this week we have anevent in Mexico in person.
(41:38):
So, but but you can't log on.
You can't go on the website andsay I want somebody from
Bangladesh and then we'll getyou somebody from Bangladesh.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
On it.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
And it's not an option yet.
Maybe in the future Okay, maybein the future the software will
support this that you could logon and you could say Bangladesh
, and then books that are fromBangladesh will be listed.
But we're not really.
I mean, unless it's part of thetopic, right, we're not letting
you sort of zoom in.
(42:07):
You could get a transgenderfrom the United Kingdom, canada,
right, you know, as long asthey're English speaking, from
anywhere and you won't knowuntil they come into the room
and they tell you where they'refrom, where they're actually
from.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Got it.
Okay, got it.
So I understand how the systemworks.
And well, i want all the readeror listeners to understand and
the readers to understand howthe works.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yes, and it's a project that's constantly
evolving where, as we get moreand more funds, we continue to
develop and we improve and wemake you know.
Even in the software, since welaunched in August, we've made a
lot of improvements to thesoftware.
It turns out software is neverreally finished.
I didn't understand that untilwe started building some and
looking at the cost, but butit's fun, it's fun, it's great
(42:55):
fun.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Is the human library a big organization.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
I wouldn't call it.
I mean big and rich, tremendousin impact.
Yes, we're only around 30people on staff, okay, okay, but
then we're thousands ofvolunteers around the world,
right, so we're big.
How?
how big in our bank account?
No, we're not big, because youremember something, vanessa?
What is a library?
(43:20):
It's free.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yes, Yes, yeah, i love that Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Most people will not come in expecting to pay to be
there.
We love if they can support us,that's fine.
Buy a t-shirt or make adonation, but there is no ask,
there's no pay wall here.
So we don't have a lot of money.
That's the God.
Honest truth is we have verylittle money.
But whatever money we have weuse to further develop And I
(43:46):
think 30 people on staff for anorganization that doesn't charge
is pretty, damn good Prettytremendous.
Yes, it's pretty tremendousbecause we do charge some.
We don't charge the publicreaders, we don't charge our
students that come in fromcolleges or high schools, but we
charge companies, corporate,yes.
So when corporate Americareaches out, like Pfizer or
(44:09):
Harley Davidson or UGICorporation or Moscow or
recently eBay, then of course wecharge them sort of a corporate
rate.
They have a budget for it.
They can afford it Right.
This is very impactful trainingfor them.
And it's impactful What theygive impacts the rest of the
world Exactly, and so we're sortof a hey that's why they call
(44:33):
me Ronnie from the hood, causeI'm like a Robin Hood I'll take
from the rich and I'll put itback into the community.
And you know, and I still livein the most diverse and I
wouldn't say impoverishedneighborhood of my country, but
it is a, it is a very diverseneighborhood here.
So I didn't move up to the, tothe hills or anything.
(44:53):
I stayed where I was from andI'm staying here.
It's who I am.
I'm not moving around and Idon't have a big salary.
Instead, i rather employ morepeople to make us stronger.
So, basically, i drive a Idon't want to say it's a piece
of old car, but it is an old carand I live in a, in a, in a, in
a, in a, in a, in a, in aneighborhood where it's not
(45:15):
expensive, to where the rentisn't high and stuff.
So, yeah, that's awesome, giveme opportunity.
Yeah, yes.
So I I'd say we are a bigorganization, looking at impact,
looking at global reach andlooking at working with a
hundred plus of the biggestcompanies in the world.
We're impacting the leadershipof Intel, verizon, pfizer We
(45:39):
worked recently with.
We are in partnership withToronto Dominion Bank.
Soon we'll be training theleadership of Kimpton hotels.
Behind Kimpton hotels, which is86 hotels around the world, is
the international hotel group,which is thousands of hotels
around the world, which isHoliday Inn and all these you
know hotel chains.
(46:00):
So we are definitely out of.
Compared to size, we're verysignificant in impact.
Wow, and we're right nownegotiating with partners in Los
Angeles TV production companyabout a development deal to put
a TV show on to become you knowyou mentioned early on in the
(46:22):
podcast I don't know if that'sgoing to be early on you
mentioned in the that we're not.
You didn't know about us, or alot of people that you spoke to
didn't know about us, and I gotto tell you two things about
that.
That's important.
Why are we a secretorganization?
Well, one, if everybody knewabout us at the same time, we
would suffocate.
Good point We do not haveenough books to accommodate a
(46:46):
global, wide interest at thesame time.
We don't.
We're not ready for it yet.
We will be ready one day, butuntil that day, keep it quiet.
No, I'm not going to No, butseriously, we got to keep it a
little bit under wraps becauseif everybody was coming at the
same time we couldn't manage it.
A lot of people will bedisappointed.
(47:07):
You don't want to disappointpeople.
They come in and there'snothing.
There's no product on the shelfbecause it's all ripped away by
somebody else who was therebefore you.
So we can't do that.
The second part is we obviouslydon't have money for marketing,
so we rely entirely on word ofmouth.
But our word of mouth isincredible.
We have over 50,000 followerson Instagram.
We have over 50,000 followerson Facebook.
(47:29):
We've got even on LinkedInalmost 6,000 people following us
.
So there's a great interest forwhat we're doing.
But it's growing organic, notbecause we put marketing in
there And stuff goes viral allthe time.
Last week we had something goviral and when that happens, we
(47:50):
get 200 emails in two days.
Now how many people does ittake to answer 200 emails?
It takes people.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
So we got to be careful.
That's why we took your podcastand not the one with 500,000
listeners.
Thank you, we can have almost.
It's not a private conversation, but it's a good conversation
(48:11):
that reaches a target groupwhich we can handle If there's
interest there, we can handle it, and that's important for us.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
I like it.
I like it, thank you.
Thank you, this has beenemotional, fascinating.
I'm very touched.
I'm very moved by this wholeidea of it.
I like the idea because I thinkit's going to bring the world
together For the people who hateVanessa And we certainly need
(48:42):
this, though, don't we?
For the people who hate.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
We probably can't change their minds But for all
the people in between, theirhearts are not full of hate, but
they're concerned, they'renervous, they're afraid.
There was a shooter insomewhere who was trans.
We have to be afraid of peoplewho are trans.
There was somebody with Muslimbackground who was part of 9-11
(49:05):
and who did something crazy.
Who have to be afraid of Muslimpeople.
It's for all those people whoare concerned.
They can come down and they canget another perspective And I'm
hoping for more quality of lifefor all of us, more security,
more safety, more feelingconnected to our community.
What would be greater thanwalking out of your house or
(49:25):
your apartment building orsomething, and knowing people
and people knowing you andknowing there's nothing to be
afraid of?
So that is high quality of lifethat cannot be bought for money
, because money will get youinto a gated community, it'll
get you a tall wall, it'll getyou security or whatever, and
you know if the worry about yourkids getting kidnapped or
(49:46):
something.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
It'll feed your fear.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
That's it.
Yeah, you're still living infear.
Yeah, so what you're reallyliving, truly living, is living
with the people, even the oneswho are different from you, but
learning to accept their rightto be different and teaching
them to accept your right to bedifferent from them.
That is when we live in peace.
So I'm not religious in thatsense.
I'm not lobbying a certainpolitical.
(50:08):
I don't support anybody.
I support mankind.
I support everybody except thehaters.
So people who are hating Ican't support that.
Intolerance is something thereis my limitation, and so that is
where we're limited at thelibrary.
So if somebody wants to use usas a platform to spew, you know,
vile stuff about others, thenyou're not going to be a book.
(50:32):
That's why we train and vet.
We try to make sure you don'thave a big chip on your shoulder
.
You're not coming in forrevenge or to to to gush out
your intolerance.
But within each and every oneof us, even our books, we have
lessons to learn about ourunconscious bias, because we all
judge, you and me also.
Yes, humanity isn't it?
(50:53):
Yes, so this is just.
This is an opportunity, andit's free.
All it takes from you is alittle bit of courage, and I
want you to.
I want to thank you forinviting me to be part of this
and reaching your audience, andmaybe some of them will come and
be brave and unjust someonewith us, either online or in
person.
Follow our social media to tostay updated on on events.
We keep posting where theevents are taking place and
(51:16):
we're spreading.
It takes time because we'redoing quality work, but we're
spreading.
We're already in Chicago, we'rein Indiana, we're in New York,
we're in California, we're inLos Angeles, we're in the Bay
Area, but we're spreading moreand more to more and more places
.
Next stop, we're going to buildin Boston And today I had a big
call with somebody who wants tohelp us build in Florida, in
(51:37):
West Palm Beach.
So before you know it, we'll bein a neighborhood near you and
you'll have a learningopportunity.
And if you can't wait, join usonline.
It's free.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Thank you, ronnie.
Hey, everybody, go to thewebsite, check it out
humanlaboratoryorg.
I'll have all the connectionson our website and go check out
the books, see how you canunjudge someone.
Yeah, thank you, vanessa.
Come be a book.
I think this might be.
I think I might just do that,but I'm definitely going to go
check out some books, thank you.
(52:07):
Thank you very much.
Thank you, wow, that was agreat conversation.
I love this idea And I foundthe human library in my search
for my own lost story, a storyabout my father who was in a
concentration camp in theNetherlands during World War II.
(52:30):
He would never speak of hisexperience and his story went
with him when he passed.
I recognize that the humanlibrary is not a traditional
library where I perhaps couldhave found information on my
father's journey, but I wish I'dheard his story so I could
better understand him, and Ithink this is the key
(52:50):
understanding one another, notjudging a book by its cover, but
actually looking inside intoour humanity.
As Ronnie said, it's difficultto hate someone once you know
them.
Thanks again for listening.
You guys, take care.
Did you ever base the decision to read a book because
you liked the way the coverlooked, or the remarks from
another reader soundedintriguing enough to potentially
pick the book up?
Or you may open a book withpreconceived ideas of what
you're going to read based uponthe cover.
(00:27):
A book's cover in this titlecan sway many people to pick it
up or skip it entirely.
But could the way a personlooks You know their cover Turn
you away from talking to them?
Would you not talk to someonebecause of the way they looked?
Or perhaps a disability?
(00:47):
Or how about the way theydressed?
Hi everybody, it's Vanessa fromTwo Chicks in a Hole, the
podcast that digs deeper intosome amazing topics, and today
(01:10):
we have quite a fascinatingtopic.
I'm very excited And we'regoing to be chatting with Ronnie
Abergale, the founder of theHuman Library, which is creating
opportunities to challengestereotypes and prejudices
through dialogue A chance tounjudge someone.
Welcome, ronnie.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, great to be here, Vanessa.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, you know, I told a lot of people about the
Human Library and the concept ofit And I got a lot of wows.
I got a lot of wows and a lotof interest.
They had never heard of such aproject, Oh damn.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I'm out of fire.
My promoter right now.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I almost didn't want to say that, but I just thought,
you know, this is cool, this isa great reason.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Let me tell you why we're such a great kept secret.
But first remind me we got toneed get your t-shirt size,
because you're already promotingus.
You need some visual help.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I would love that.
I would love that.
I want to talk to you too,about you know, listeners, we're
going to talk about thepotential of bringing the Human
Library.
It's all over the world, butI'm getting ahead of myself.
We'll talk more at the endabout what I really would like
to do with you.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
All right, well, okay , but nothing kinky though.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
No, you never know It is called two chicks in a hole.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
That's why when I told people about that they were
like wow, what's going on there?
That sounds a little.
I said don't get, don't missunder.
My girlfriend was like what areyou doing the next hour?
I said you don't want to know.
She says I do want to know.
I said I'm meeting with twochicks in a hole.
She goes what?
Tell me again, what are youdoing?
I said forget about it, youknow.
But hey, okay, i'll tell youwhy.
(02:52):
We're kind of keeping.
We're not keeping it secret.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Okay, first of all.
first of all, tell thelisteners what is the Human?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Library.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
You know, I've said it kind of a little bit, but
what is it?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
It is a library similar to the one you know from
your community.
The biggest difference is wedon't have any actual, real
books.
We have people that havevolunteered to be an open book
for you, their reader, abouttheir life and lived experience.
So we'll have authentic, thereal deal on our bookshelf.
(03:23):
We'll have a police officer, asex worker, somebody who's
unhoused, somebody who has HIV,somebody who's autistic, bipolar
, schizophrenic, somebody whohas OCD, somebody who's
non-binary, somebody who'stransgender, somebody who has a
visible disability or aninvisible disability, somebody
(03:44):
who has a different orientationor a different religious belief
than yours, somebody who doesn'tbelieve at all, or somebody who
claims to be a Trump supporteror a member of the National
Rifle Association.
So what we'll do is we'll giveyou access to a diversity of
people that are willing toanswer your questions.
They're not going to give you alecture, they're not going to
(04:07):
campaign, they don't have a chipon their shoulder and I promise
you they're not intolerant.
So they're not going to be, youknow, there to say, oh, I hate
this or I just really don't likethat group.
They're there to help youbetter understand their group by
being very honest and open andsay, okay, ask me anything you
want, about my challenge, aboutmy mental health, about my
(04:28):
ethnicity, about my religion,about my job, which can be very
challenging.
I'm a police officer in thiscommunity, or I'm a journalist,
or I'm a politician.
So we've built this conceptwith 15 pillars of prejudice and
from each pillar we draw groupsthat are suffering or to some
extent being not includedbecause of our unconscious bias
(04:52):
or our conscious bias, likebecause we're socially
apprehensive, or because we'refearful, or simply because we're
intolerant towards this group.
We think we know everything weneed to know about them, but did
we ever meet somebody?
Did we ever talk to somebody?
Did we ever, you know, engageand find out what they're all
about?
I realized years ago that it'sdifficult to hate someone once
(05:15):
you know them.
You may disagree with them, Youmay even dislike their point of
view or the lifestyle they have, or you may, you know, it may
really not sit well with you theway they approach certain
things in life, but when you getto know them and you understand
why, it's just much easier tosort of accept.
(05:36):
So sometimes maybe all we needis to overcome that hurdle of
accessibility and get to knowsomebody who is a refugee or
who's an illegal immigrant orwho is, you know, a supporter of
Joseph Biden or of Obama or ofTrump?
and sit down and understand.
Well, dude, you voted twice forthat guy, why, tell me?
(05:59):
Help me understand.
So, rather than stigmatizingpeople and excluding them
because they're obese or becausethey have a certain job we
don't like or they represent areligious group that we're
afraid of or we disagree with,let's meet them first.
Let's meet them before we makeup our mind.
That's.
All we offer is a safe spacefor you to meet some of the most
(06:21):
stigmatized people in ourcommunity.
Victims are bullying, survivorsof domestic abuse, survivors of
suicide, people who have beenleft behind, because you know,
people who live with bereavement, with grief, and who have faced
, you know, losing somebody verydear to them, and it's
(06:42):
something we will all encounterat some point in our life, but
that we really don't like totalk about.
So it's, you know.
In a way, we call themcourageous conversations,
because it takes a little bit ofcourage to actually have a
conversation about somebody'smental health or about the
journey that their life has beenon, or, you know, or losing
(07:02):
somebody dear to you.
So really it's.
In my opinion, the humanlibrary is a safe place where we
could potentially undjudgesomeone.
Because in our library we makethe assumption and I think it's
fair that we all judge, we allmake these calculations all the
time.
It's unavoidable And so we knowthe saying Vanessa, don't judge
(07:26):
a book by its cover, but that'sridiculous.
To say that is kind ofridiculous, because we cannot
stop that.
That's unavoidable.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
That's our human nature, isn't it?
That's in our nature.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It's in our coding.
Imagine a human being as apiece of software.
This is the way our softwareoperates.
This is our algorithm.
We see something, we try todecode it.
We hear something, we try todecode it And we have references
.
We heard about this before.
Maybe we never encounteredsomebody with tattoos all over
their face, but we saw it on aTV show when they were criminals
(08:01):
and they were bikers and theywere.
And then that's our reference,and then we'll put people in
little boxes And in a way, isometimes like to explain that
we all have a little built-inlabel printer and we print
little labels really fast.
We print them so fast we canbarely you know, we barely
reflect.
It's just it's printed.
Oh, i don't like, oh I like.
(08:21):
So sometimes it's very healthyto revisit these judgments, and
that is what we offer.
We offer a safe framing whereyou can walk up to our librarian
in your public library setting,you know, explore the list of
literature that we haveavailable, which will be very
short form bipolar autism, adhd,homeless, unhoused, hiv, victim
(08:48):
of bullying, victim of incestone of the greatest tapos that
we carry.
Like that's a conversationnobody wants to have, and so you
can sort of be like, wow, thistriggers me.
Male chauvinist, oh my goodness, do they really exist?
Let me get that.
Or member of the NRA orsomething, so something where we
(09:08):
can help qualify your judgment.
Okay, i gotta say it.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I gotta say it, say it, wow, you got me in the first
sentence.
Wow, that is amazing, amazingYeah.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
In the time that we live in that is so polarized.
Yes, i think it's even moreneeded now because you know what
, vanessa?
we've been doing this for 23years.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Tell me how did this start?
What is your inspiration forthe beginning of this?
I mean, this is, this issomething, like you just said,
this takes For a person likemyself to check out a book.
That takes courage, you know,whether, whatever, that is
something that you know, i'vebeen fearful of those types of
things, but what kind ofinspiration did you have to
(09:55):
create something like this?
That's the ultimate.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Well, i'm a little bit of an outsider myself, and
so in my community I'm sort ofmixed background.
My father was born in Africa,my mother is Danish, so they can
tell I'm not really.
Well, i don't have much hairleft, but you can tell from my
eyebrows and my beard that I'mnot a blonde person.
And if you get really closehere you can see that I have
brown eyes.
(10:19):
I don't have blue eyes, so I'mnot very Scandinavian.
I mean, as to where I grew upin Denmark and Copenhagen, and I
often would get the questionwhere are you from?
And I'm like, dude, i'm bornhere.
So I would, instead of givethem my sort of country of
origin, i would give them myborough, my neighborhood.
I'd say I'm from the NorthBridge area.
(10:41):
Where are you from?
I love it.
Oh, they'd be like oh, i'm fromthe south side of the city, or
I'm from outside of the city,i'm from the suburbs.
I said I thought I could tellyou had this accent.
No, and so as a child I was alsovery curious about people.
So I'm the type who would pointfingers and pull my mom on her
sleeve and say what's this guyAnd what's this person And why
(11:05):
is this like that, and she wouldalways be like you can't say
that, you can't say that.
She would hush me and she wouldstop me from asking openly,
embarrassed in questions.
But they were all curiositybased.
Nothing evil there, justcurious about people who are
different.
And in my early youth I sort ofshied away from this because I
(11:25):
made quick judgments myself AndI cut myself off from a lot of
opportunity by not having thechance to let these people into
my life, simply by putting themin the wrong boxes.
So navigating diversity is notalways easy, especially if you
don't have a lot of confidenceor a reference.
If you live in a sort ofcommunity where everybody is the
(11:46):
same, when you come out of thatcommunity you're going to see a
big diversity and you'll be alittle bit anxious to start.
Yes, i'm great, i'm like, oh,whoa, these people are from all
over the world And it's likeimagine living in upstate New
York somewhere and then comingdown to New York City or living
in Arkansas and coming to LosAngeles And you'd be like, whoa,
(12:07):
this is different And soadapting and relaxing, letting
your shoulders get down,trusting in your fellow man is
not always easy, and especiallyif you don't have a reference if
all you heard was potentiallyeven politicians talking bad
about somebody.
So I thought, hey, what wouldhappen if we gave all the people
that we judged a platform andopportunity to explain who they
(12:32):
were, so that we may, we may,judge them again, but now on a
more qualified basis, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Because of information.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Exactly.
Now.
I have the information from you, i know why you're doing what
you're doing And I completelydisagree, but I understand,
right.
So bringing that back to thetable and it's sort of a.
It's a cornerstone of democracy, respecting our right to
disagree with each other and bedifferent.
We don't all have to be thesame.
(13:00):
If we were all the same, itwould be so incredibly dull and
boring And we all be standing inline at Chick-fil-A, wouldn't
we?
And the line would be mileslong because we're all the same.
We're all looking for chickenon a Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
True, so true, yep.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
So I thought, hey, let's try this.
And then my friends at theorganization where it works said
, okay, that sounds like areally strange but a crazy idea.
Wow, let's do it.
And we did, and it turned outthat it really you know it works
.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Well, this doesn't sound like the kind of library
where they used to go.
Shh be quiet.
This sounds like my kind oflibrary, where you talk a lot
and ask a lot of questions.
Who was your?
Speaker 2 (13:42):
first book Well, my first book, in the sense, the
first book that I recruited forthe human library.
That was a boy I saw at a busstop with his girlfriend.
So the boy had a mohawk, he hadpiercings all over his face, He
had tattoos And he was what Iwould call either a member of
the punk community like sexpistols you know people who
(14:06):
listen to punk music or he wasbody modified Today we'd call
him body modified Right And thekid was about 16 years old, and
so this was like the same day asI had the idea of walking down
the street in Copenhagen And Isee this kid across the street
at the bus stop and I justcrossed the street and I walked
over to him and I said look, youdon't know me.
(14:26):
My name's Ronnie.
I want to publish you as anopen book.
We're going to this festivalthis summer.
Would you want to be an openbook?
And the guy said can you ask mymom?
And I said sure, i'll call yourmom.
I love it.
This is great.
I called his mom and she saidthis sounds really cool.
Does he want to go?
I said yeah, david wants to go.
(14:48):
David was my first book, butthen I really started reaching
out to people I knew, you know,like built a list of everybody.
I knew who could be.
You know, i knew somebody whohad Muslim background.
I knew somebody with Jewishbackground.
I knew somebody who came fromKurdistan as a refugee.
I knew somebody who ran awayfrom war in Bosnia and in the
former Republic of Yugoslavia Sothey were like refugees,
(15:11):
internally displaced.
And so I just made a list, andso did all my team members, and
all of a sudden we had more than75 different topics on our
bookshelf, wow, wow.
And even the Copenhagen policegave us four police officers
said we'll give you one cop eachday.
So Thursday a policeman Friday.
(15:31):
Another man came Saturday andSunday.
So for each day.
We were open at the originalevent back then, which was a
four day event at a festivalright And this is a face to face
event.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
This is face to face down, face to face with your
book.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
That's what you do.
I mean now you can also do itdigitally, you can also
available online, but until preCOVID we're mostly available in
person, as we call it, which isface to face, and you could do
one on one or you could sharewith your wife, with your
partner, with your friend, withyour children, and go sit
somewhere and sort of meetsomebody with an eating disorder
(16:07):
and ask their advice.
Meet somebody who overcame, youknow, tremendous adversity And
maybe you could be inspired fromthat.
Or meet somebody where youthought that, hey, you thought
you knew everything about Muslimpeople, but when you meet this
Muslim you're going to learnsomething new, right and help
qualify your opinion, maybe,maybe dismantle some of our fear
(16:29):
or apprehension about somebody.
I mean, imagine a communitywhere everybody knew each other
better And, even though we werenot all the same, we respected
each other's rights to bedifferent.
Would you feel safer in thecommunity like that?
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely So.
It's quality of life and that'sit.
(16:50):
This is about quality of life.
And for the people who arebeing understood, i mean,
imagine your whole life beingmisunderstood because of that
thing on your face or because ofyour hair color or your ethnic
group or your religion.
And here's the chance toexplain what it means to you And
for somebody to understand.
It's so basic humanity here.
(17:11):
It's like humanity 101.
We all need to be understood.
So when one of my colleaguessaid but Ronnie, why would
somebody who had, you know, adisability and had a difficult
time in their life because ofthat, why would they volunteer
to come and talk about somethingso difficult, or about a mental
health situation which is kindof taboo, or about their
(17:32):
orientation They might be nonbinary or bisexual or gay or
whatever I said.
Look, imagine being the victimof hate crimes, people hating on
you, you being afraid of otherpeople's reactions when they
find out who you are, or you'vehad to run away from situations.
Imagine a chance of redemptionto stand up and say this is who
(17:55):
I am.
Ask me anything, because we'llcreate a protected space.
So it's been an incrediblejourney.
We're more than 80 countries.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I was so.
80 countries And what is themost frequently asked for a book
.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I think there is a large.
There's a large ask worldwidefor topics that help us better
understand our mental health.
Yeah, so if I was to identifysomething that the commonality
amongst us.
That's it.
But so if you were in India,you might have other issues,
(18:33):
secondary or third degree topicsthat are relevant for the
community in India.
Of course, when you're in LosAngeles it's a completely
different conversation, Buteverywhere we go, mental health
is a big ass, big ass.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Wow, okay, all right, so you said it already.
You've said the word taboo acouple of times and I have that
written down.
What's that taboo subject thatI?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
think there are many, and I think from society, from
community, community, they vary,but to give you some obesity.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
That's quite a taboo, and it's some of the books that
we really lack.
We have a lot of peoplerepresenting Jews, muslims,
trans, non binary mental health,obesity.
They're not as common on ourbookshelf because we shame them.
Wow, they're sort of put toshame.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
So that's a different let me understand this, Ronnie.
So that's a different kind ofshame than I have body
modifications, or I Well, that'smore intolerance.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
That's more intolerance.
Maybe you're disgusted by whatthe person did to themselves.
Maybe you're intolerant.
You're like I would never hireyou because you've got all these
piercing and tattoos on yourface.
So that's intolerance.
Where obesity is people.
I think some people are ashamedthat they became that big, but
I also think that they feel thatother people are shaming them
(20:10):
And so.
but there are other taboosvictims of bullying, victims of
sexual assaults, victims ofdomestic violence and especially
victims of incest.
This is a topic very, very fewpeople are comfortable talking
about, but you do have booksthat are willing?
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yes, we have books that are willing, and those
books are checked out.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
They're in high demand.
I bet okay.
They're in high demand.
We just don't have a tremendousamount of them to meet the
demand, because once they'rethere, people really they're
like wow, they don't have anopportunity to talk to somebody
about this.
And there's a lot more of itthan we think.
There's a lot more people thathave been abused in their
(20:55):
childhood than we would think of.
So we're surprised that thewe're surprised at how much draw
or pull this thing has.
So these are much neededconversation and they even have
a cathartic effect for some.
You know I'll tell you ananecdote that one married couple
in their late 40s came to usand they'd driven like 35 miles
(21:19):
Cause they heard on the radiowe're hosting an event on the
island where they lived, and sothey drove to the session, which
was bar, from where they lived,and said we really want to
borrow this victim of incest.
And when they borrowed her,they started the conversation by
saying look, there's a veryspecific reason why we asked for
you.
And so they, and so our booksaid okay, what's that reason?
(21:43):
Well, we recently found outthat our daughter, who is now 27
, was abused by the wife'slittle brother When she was only
13.
So she had developed an eatingdisorder.
She had attempted suicide, alot of bad things that happened
(22:03):
to her.
From that moment on, she haddeteriorated on the personal
level and they didn't understandwhat happened.
Only 14 years later that theyunderstand what had happened to
their child, and so the brotherhad admitted, the wife's little
brother had admitted to whathe'd done, and they came to ask
(22:25):
our books advice.
What can we do?
We live in a small community.
If this comes out, the stigmawill be unbearable.
Everybody will talk about itAnd our family will be forever
stigmatized by this.
And secondarily well, probablymore important how do we handle
this that we call the cops?
(22:45):
And more important for them?
they said we really need youradvice.
What can we do to support ourchild now?
What can we do now?
So who are we to judge whatpeople wanna use the space for?
I hope they use it to learn.
I hope they use it to explorehumanity and find answers to
(23:06):
questions that aren't easilyfound or things we can't ask
about at home.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
You know, I was gonna ask you what the goal is of the
human library and you have justsaid it.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
But is ideally, it's creating understanding between
fellow, our fellow human beings.
The moment we identify witheach other, the moment we
understand each other and beginto accept each other, that is
when all wars end.
That's beautiful.
That is when you're not gonnafight somebody that you know.
in that way, you might get intoa fight with somebody, but it's
(23:39):
very difficult to hate onsomebody that you have an
understanding for.
So, in a way, i like to look atit as if we're gluing people
together.
People that are disconnectedfrom each other are being
re-glued, reconnected in aframing that's really safe and
they can walk out of there andthey will not be canceled for
(24:00):
not using the right language.
They don't have to be afraidthat they're not woke or this or
that.
At this place, all you have tobe is courageous enough to
follow your curiosity and askthe questions that are on your
mind.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I was wowed and moved And I wanna repeat the idea
that Ronnie mentioned The momentwe understand each other and
begin to accept each other isthe moment when all wars end.
Wow, wow And amazingly it worksfor both the book and the
(24:41):
reader, doesn't it?
And I had read somewhere onyour website as well that one of
the requirements was is thatboth parties come back
untathered, and I love that.
That whole idea of don't bendthe pages, don't rip the pages,
don't mess up the cover, takecare of the book.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
That's very true, vanessa.
We ask very simple ground rulesof engagement here.
Bring the book back on time,just like at your regular
library.
Don't be late.
Somebody else could be waitingfor it.
Librarians will help you.
Treat the book with the samerespect you wanna be treated.
Don't take it home.
(25:20):
Don't tear out pages, right, soliterally caretaker for this
person as you would wanna becaretaken for yourself, and then
everything's gonna be fine.
But be bold, go deep, ask verypersonal questions And if you
ask something that's very muchoff topic, let's say you're
volunteering to talk aboutpersonal grief, that happened
(25:43):
and the loss you had.
Maybe your dog got hit by a carGod forbid.
But let's say that happened Andyou're struck and you're hurt
by this.
You're in grief.
Nobody understands.
people are telling you Vanessa,get out of here, get out of
here.
What's wrong with you, right,right, but nobody can understand
how much you love that dog.
(26:05):
Even people that got a dog areon their second or third dog.
This is your first dog.
You just really you miss thisdog and you're being sort of
pushed to move on.
Maybe it would be great for youto have a conversation with
somebody who's also handledgrief and figure out how do I
handle this?
(26:26):
How do I learn to live withwhat's happened to me And how do
I get over it?
in the sense that you're notgonna get over it, but you're
gonna learn to live with it, yougotta live your life still And
maybe in the future one day haveanother dog.
So I think what's importanthere is that we allow ourselves
to be human and to feel thethings that we need to feel and
(26:48):
talk to people about it, andthat has a really cathartic
effect and it's helpful, i haveto tell you.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I never thought of.
so I understand all the otherbooks that you've kind of
described earlier, but the ideaof grief they're actually
talking to somebody about grief,oh yeah, and potentially
helping them through thatprocess.
I lost my husband a few yearsago and it has taken me many,
many years Still.
do you ever get over it?
(27:15):
I don't know, but those typesof things.
I didn't realize that I couldpotentially be of help to
someone else to get throughsomething like that.
You can.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
You can look next month, next month, in about a
little bit less than a month.
Yeah it'll be 10 years since mywife died in my arms.
Okay, yeah, okay.
She passed away suddenly in abalcony in Spain from a heart
valve collapsed while we're onholiday.
She was 37 years old.
The children were sleeping.
(27:47):
They didn't see them on time,okay, and people were like they
don't know what to say Exactly.
So they don't say anything, soit's like it didn't happen,
which it didn't exist.
It makes it a lot more painful.
And at my workplace they saidtake all the time you need.
(28:09):
Back then I wasn't workingfull-time for the human library,
i was doing my job as ajournalist, working creating
documentary films, and actuallyI was working on a very big
climate film about globalheating and how we could save
the climate.
It's a movie called CarbonCrooks.
It came out 10 years ago.
It came out.
(28:29):
It's a very nice film.
But they said take as much timeas you want.
And after three weeks theystarted calling me, asking me
when I was coming back.
At that time we had not yetgotten the body back from Spain
because of some legal measures.
So they had not.
We'd not received her.
She was not.
She had not been buried yet.
(28:50):
And I said you know what?
I want you to give my positionto somebody else, because I
cannot tell you when I'm comingback.
I can't.
Right now I'm not eating.
I lost two pounds a week, 17weeks straight.
I came all the way down to 68kilos, which is 140 pounds or
less, and I was a prettyheavy-set guy at the time And it
(29:14):
was terrible.
I couldn't sleep, i couldn'teat.
It was the most horrible timeof my life.
And nobody were able not very,very few.
Nobody is a tough word.
I don't want to judge everybody, but very, very few was able to
relate and understand And youknow who understood other people
that had lost.
That's where I found comfort.
That's where I foundconsolation and understanding,
(29:37):
and it's such a personal and Idon't know You.
Just, we must find a wayforward.
We must find a way to live withthe person we lost and the love
we had And find a way tocomfort ourselves and enjoy life
again and start eating againand be somebody in life.
But you know what?
The other people around us mustbe better at understanding how
(30:00):
challenging and difficult thisis, because they made it worse.
So I ended up not going out fortwo years Because I didn't know
.
People didn't know what to say.
They were like I have no words.
I said what do you think I am?
If you have no words, then howthe hell do you think I feel?
And then other people were liketell me if there's anything I
can do to help.
I said you know what, if I callyou for help, you're just going
(30:22):
to be uncomfortable.
So you know, don't offer whatyou can't really give me.
Because when I called they werelike I'm sorry, i'm busy, i
can't help right now, but it'sright now I need to help.
So it's like people are, theydon't know at work, they don't
know in your friend circles.
They want to, they want to try,but they're just it's difficult
(30:43):
for them to talk about also, Sothey say nothing.
And it made it worse.
And so we put I put grief on thebookshelf after my loss.
I said I can't believe thestigma I faced.
First of all, i lost number two.
The whole social burden is nowon me.
I have to make people that Imeet that know I lost.
I have to make them feelcomfortable.
(31:05):
Yes, this is what I call onthat And I say it's not my
social obligation to make youfeel comfortable with what
happened to me.
It cannot be.
There's something really wrongwith that.
That's like I have to bringcake to the office when it's my
birthday.
It's my birthday, you shouldget me a cake.
What the hell is wrong with you?
(31:26):
I mean, this is the reverse wayof being human beings.
We forgot something veryimportant there And that's
hurtful to those of us who lost.
So I put bereavement on thebookshelf, hoping to help
educate.
I have been published as anopen book on bereavement.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
And it's checked out.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yes, oh, are you kidding?
Indeed, it's checked out everytime And it's very much
appreciated.
And this guy we've got awonderful book in the UK who's
helping us do this.
James, we change a lot, but Ifound a couple of grief sisters
that helped me on my road, andthey were years ahead, vanessa.
One had lost seven years beforeme, one had lost, sorry, four
(32:05):
years before me, and so wheneverI would encounter something, i
could call them and say, hey, doyou guys recognize this?
And they were like, yeah, yeah,sure, relax, here's what you
got to, here's what you can do,or this is natural, what you're
feeling, this is what theprocess is.
Yes, it's like they've watchedthe first four seasons of this.
I didn't.
I'm still on episode two, rightOne.
(32:26):
So really helpful And we canhelp each other.
But for people who never lost,it's very difficult to fathom,
and so I wanted them to haveaccess.
And one of my readers, dan, inWashington DC.
He will live with me forever,so he borrowed me at the
international monetary fund,which is an incredible place in
(32:47):
the heart of Washington.
We're publishing our booksthere as part of a corporate
event.
We also do corporate events,and so one of our great books
there had to step out because ofa meeting.
She got called to a meeting, awork meeting at the fund.
It was one of the books that wehad recruited at the fund And
so she stayed only for the firsttwo readings and for the.
For the third reading I had tostep in, and so I sat at this
(33:10):
table and one of my readers, Dan.
He said a lot of smart thingsat that time, but he asked me a
question that I'll never forget.
He said, ronnie, when you knewyour wife had a bad heart, why
did you go on vacation in Spain?
Hmm, and I'm like, when heasked it, it hit me like a fist
(33:30):
in the stomach And he told memaybe I'm not really ready to
talk about this the way I felt Iwas ready.
I thought I was ready.
This was four years in, but butit hit me because, yeah, why
the hell did we go to Spain whenwe knew she had a bad heart?
Speaker 1 (33:47):
But that was, that was part of that conversation
then, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (33:50):
It was, and so I did.
I tried to answer theconsiderations and it was my
40th birthday and we got thegift.
We had the trip as a gift formy parents And you know she'd
had a heart condition since shewas nine, so we were not
expecting her to drop dead likethat.
Doctors underestimated theseriousness of her condition,
which is just really a tragedyfor me, for my kids, for her,
(34:12):
for all of us, for the wholefamily.
But it was it was.
It stayed with me.
And after that I got a letterfrom Dan said Ronnie, i've met a
lot of people in my life, butyou probably are one of the
richest people I've ever met.
And I looked at myself and Iknow my bank account is not full
.
So I understood that there'sdifferent riches out there.
And it's understanding yourfellow man Yeah, being able to
(34:36):
understand or be understood.
What is more rewarding thanbeing understood?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Very little.
It's like it's heard, isn't it?
It's like being heard, yes, andseen for who you are.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Exactly, very Okay.
So we got to bring the mood up.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
And we got to bring the balance Right on the edge
here.
This is good, So okay.
So this is to my next questionthen How do you become a book?
Maybe I want to.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
You could volunteer through our website.
You could fill in anapplication, a motivated
application that says you knowwhat's your experience, what
kind of issues or livedexperiences do you think could
be a value to your readers, whatkind of biases or stigma
prejudice have you faced thatyou can help us understand?
And so, in this sense, youvolunteer through the website.
(35:24):
We then screen your application, invite you to an orientation.
If you're still motivated, youget onto this let's call it a
book portal, where you train tobe a book.
You're going to watch sometutorials.
That explains the methodology.
There are some exercises you'regoing to do to identify your
content And then you're going tocome to a reading exam, just
(35:46):
like high school.
You come to the exam And thenwe're going to publish you.
After that, we'll take you ontoour bookshelf and we'll invite
you to come out to events atpublic libraries and high
schools and colleges and campusand universities and workplaces,
even festivals.
And you know, some of our booksget to go great places because
they're near something that'swonderful, what's happening, and
(36:08):
others are publishing morevirtually because they're at a
distance.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, i was going to ask you So.
so here I live in the NorthernCalifornia, the Bay Area.
We've got a book depot in theBay Area.
I was going to ask because Ican't find it, but I didn't look
well enough.
So you mean a book depot whereyou can physically go as a book
or virtually?
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Both.
We have a book depot which is abook collection for the Bay
Area.
Okay, they were at eBay justthis earlier this week.
Oh, okay, Yeah, okay, some ofthe books went to eBay to
publish for a small group ofreaders at eBay in San Jose this
week A private event And soon,yeah, soon there's an event soon
(36:51):
.
There's an event coming up inthe public space, but there are
also events coming up with a.
Is it Kimpton hotels?
So Kimpton hotel has theirheadquarters in San Francisco?
Okay, and so we're going to goand do something for the
leadership of Kimpton hotel.
I don't have the date right now.
I think it got pushed back, butit was supposed to be May, so
now it might be June or July,but I know we're going to the
(37:13):
headquarters of Kimpton.
But basically you're part of acommunity group there.
It starts with getting you addedinto the book depot Once you're
trained as a book and you'revetted and you've signed your
volunteering agreement and yourpromise not to disclose
different stuff mostly what youlearn from readers, which is
right.
Right, it's a confidentialconversation, right, we don't
(37:34):
want you outing readers ortrying to get somebody canceled,
and we don't want them outingyou either.
We want you to be able to havea confidential conversation
about important issues, right?
So look at the paperwork out ofthe way.
We add you to the book depotAnd once you're in there, you're
going to get differentinvitations.
You're going to get invitationsto join us online, to be
(37:57):
published on zoom.
You will going to get aninvitation to join our software
where you can publish on demand,which means let's say that you
have Let's, let's just I knowyou're not anymore, but let's
say that you were a soccer momAnd so you had soccer and stuff.
You need to go to all week withyour kids, which are now
probably quite big kids.
They go on their own, but ifyou were still having small kids
(38:20):
, then you have to take these.
Oh, you got that Starbucks binthere, cup.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
I do, and it's a California one.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
I got a New York and Columbia and Nashville I collect
those, i do too, but okay, ilove them.
Okay, we'll Starbucks aside,but okay.
So what you would get is youwould get different publishing
opportunities offered to you andthen you can sort of choose
what's with your calendar.
When could you be available?
There's, you know, mountainView Public Library.
(38:54):
There's what's it calledFoothill College.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Hi for your area.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yeah, that's it.
So there are different partnersthat we work with that invite
us to come out and publish, andso we'll post those in the book
depot and say, hey, who could beavailable to come with us to
Foothill College on this?
This is the date, got it, andthen, if it suits you, you join.
If it doesn't suit you, you canjoin.
And then on the software whichis the greatest thing that we've
(39:21):
done recently is you couldactually log on and say, hey, i
got soccer Tuesday, thursday,i'm not doing anything Wednesday
, i'm going to be availableWednesday, and so Wednesday you
put yourself on the software andyou say, wednesday, at 4pm East
Pacific time, i could bepublished and my topic will be
(39:41):
breamant.
And so anybody who wants totalk about this can book me or
join my session, and if at leasttwo readers joined the session,
it's on one on one.
We don't do in the virtual space, because if somebody is not
polite, we don't have a witnessthere.
Yeah, okay, we don't want toleave you for psychological
safety, and it's not that ithappens, right?
(40:03):
Maybe that's why it doesn'thappen for psychological safety,
as there are no librarians inthe room, we want you to have at
least two readers with youMaximum five, right Got it And
so our readers in the communitywill sign up to learn about this
and they'll join Wednesday at4pm And so that will be a 30
minute session where they get toask you a bunch of questions
(40:24):
and learn from you and betterunderstand people with your
story and background andexperience And so and then you
can come back next Wednesday anddo it all over again, or do it
every other Wednesday, or do itone Wednesday a month, depending
on how much time you have.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
So on the website you're in over 80 countries.
But on the website can I go inand say I want to check out a
book from Singapore.
You know it's available.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
No, no, that's not possible.
I'm sorry You can't do that.
Is that for?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
real.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
What you can do is you can't do that, but if you
follow us, if you follow us onsocial media, for example on
Facebook, we will post publiconline events that are hosted
every other Sunday.
Oh, okay, so every other Sundaythere is a big, open Zoom
session where people from 20countries will join and books
(41:17):
from many different countrieswill be on low.
There are also separate Spanishevents going on where the
working language is Spanish,right, so you can join them on
Zoom if you're a Spanish speaker, and then you'd get books from
Peru, from Spain, from Colombia,from you know you'd get.
From Mexico, you get differentbooks.
In fact, this week we have anevent in Mexico in person.
(41:38):
So, but but you can't log on.
You can't go on the website andsay I want somebody from
Bangladesh and then we'll getyou somebody from Bangladesh.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
On it.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
And it's not an option yet.
Maybe in the future Okay, maybein the future the software will
support this that you could logon and you could say Bangladesh
, and then books that are fromBangladesh will be listed.
But we're not really.
I mean, unless it's part of thetopic, right, we're not letting
you sort of zoom in.
(42:07):
You could get a transgenderfrom the United Kingdom, canada,
right, you know, as long asthey're English speaking, from
anywhere and you won't knowuntil they come into the room
and they tell you where they'refrom, where they're actually
from.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Got it.
Okay, got it.
So I understand how the systemworks.
And well, i want all the readeror listeners to understand and
the readers to understand howthe works.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yes, and it's a project that's constantly
evolving where, as we get moreand more funds, we continue to
develop and we improve and wemake you know.
Even in the software, since welaunched in August, we've made a
lot of improvements to thesoftware.
It turns out software is neverreally finished.
I didn't understand that untilwe started building some and
looking at the cost, but butit's fun, it's fun, it's great
(42:55):
fun.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Is the human library a big organization.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
I wouldn't call it.
I mean big and rich, tremendousin impact.
Yes, we're only around 30people on staff, okay, okay, but
then we're thousands ofvolunteers around the world,
right, so we're big.
How?
how big in our bank account?
No, we're not big, because youremember something, vanessa?
What is a library?
(43:20):
It's free.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yes, Yes, yeah, i love that Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Most people will not come in expecting to pay to be
there.
We love if they can support us,that's fine.
Buy a t-shirt or make adonation, but there is no ask,
there's no pay wall here.
So we don't have a lot of money.
That's the God.
Honest truth is we have verylittle money.
But whatever money we have weuse to further develop And I
(43:46):
think 30 people on staff for anorganization that doesn't charge
is pretty, damn good Prettytremendous.
Yes, it's pretty tremendousbecause we do charge some.
We don't charge the publicreaders, we don't charge our
students that come in fromcolleges or high schools, but we
charge companies, corporate,yes.
So when corporate Americareaches out, like Pfizer or
(44:09):
Harley Davidson or UGICorporation or Moscow or
recently eBay, then of course wecharge them sort of a corporate
rate.
They have a budget for it.
They can afford it Right.
This is very impactful trainingfor them.
And it's impactful What theygive impacts the rest of the
world Exactly, and so we're sortof a hey that's why they call
(44:33):
me Ronnie from the hood, causeI'm like a Robin Hood I'll take
from the rich and I'll put itback into the community.
And you know, and I still livein the most diverse and I
wouldn't say impoverishedneighborhood of my country, but
it is a, it is a very diverseneighborhood here.
So I didn't move up to the, tothe hills or anything.
(44:53):
I stayed where I was from andI'm staying here.
It's who I am.
I'm not moving around and Idon't have a big salary.
Instead, i rather employ morepeople to make us stronger.
So, basically, i drive a Idon't want to say it's a piece
of old car, but it is an old carand I live in a, in a, in a, in
a, in a, in a, in a, in aneighborhood where it's not
(45:15):
expensive, to where the rentisn't high and stuff.
So, yeah, that's awesome, giveme opportunity.
Yeah, yes.
So I I'd say we are a bigorganization, looking at impact,
looking at global reach andlooking at working with a
hundred plus of the biggestcompanies in the world.
We're impacting the leadershipof Intel, verizon, pfizer We
(45:39):
worked recently with.
We are in partnership withToronto Dominion Bank.
Soon we'll be training theleadership of Kimpton hotels.
Behind Kimpton hotels, which is86 hotels around the world, is
the international hotel group,which is thousands of hotels
around the world, which isHoliday Inn and all these you
know hotel chains.
(46:00):
So we are definitely out of.
Compared to size, we're verysignificant in impact.
Wow, and we're right nownegotiating with partners in Los
Angeles TV production companyabout a development deal to put
a TV show on to become you knowyou mentioned early on in the
(46:22):
podcast I don't know if that'sgoing to be early on you
mentioned in the that we're not.
You didn't know about us, or alot of people that you spoke to
didn't know about us, and I gotto tell you two things about
that.
That's important.
Why are we a secretorganization?
Well, one, if everybody knewabout us at the same time, we
would suffocate.
Good point We do not haveenough books to accommodate a
(46:46):
global, wide interest at thesame time.
We don't.
We're not ready for it yet.
We will be ready one day, butuntil that day, keep it quiet.
No, I'm not going to No, butseriously, we got to keep it a
little bit under wraps becauseif everybody was coming at the
same time we couldn't manage it.
A lot of people will bedisappointed.
(47:07):
You don't want to disappointpeople.
They come in and there'snothing.
There's no product on the shelfbecause it's all ripped away by
somebody else who was therebefore you.
So we can't do that.
The second part is we obviouslydon't have money for marketing,
so we rely entirely on word ofmouth.
But our word of mouth isincredible.
We have over 50,000 followerson Instagram.
We have over 50,000 followerson Facebook.
(47:29):
We've got even on LinkedInalmost 6,000 people following us
.
So there's a great interest forwhat we're doing.
But it's growing organic, notbecause we put marketing in
there And stuff goes viral allthe time.
Last week we had something goviral and when that happens, we
(47:50):
get 200 emails in two days.
Now how many people does ittake to answer 200 emails?
It takes people.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
So we got to be careful.
That's why we took your podcastand not the one with 500,000
listeners.
Thank you, we can have almost.
It's not a private conversation, but it's a good conversation
(48:11):
that reaches a target groupwhich we can handle If there's
interest there, we can handle it, and that's important for us.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
I like it.
I like it, thank you.
Thank you, this has beenemotional, fascinating.
I'm very touched.
I'm very moved by this wholeidea of it.
I like the idea because I thinkit's going to bring the world
together For the people who hateVanessa And we certainly need
(48:42):
this, though, don't we?
For the people who hate.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
We probably can't change their minds But for all
the people in between, theirhearts are not full of hate, but
they're concerned, they'renervous, they're afraid.
There was a shooter insomewhere who was trans.
We have to be afraid of peoplewho are trans.
There was somebody with Muslimbackground who was part of 9-11
(49:05):
and who did something crazy.
Who have to be afraid of Muslimpeople.
It's for all those people whoare concerned.
They can come down and they canget another perspective And I'm
hoping for more quality of lifefor all of us, more security,
more safety, more feelingconnected to our community.
What would be greater thanwalking out of your house or
(49:25):
your apartment building orsomething, and knowing people
and people knowing you andknowing there's nothing to be
afraid of?
So that is high quality of lifethat cannot be bought for money
, because money will get youinto a gated community, it'll
get you a tall wall, it'll getyou security or whatever, and
you know if the worry about yourkids getting kidnapped or
(49:46):
something.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
It'll feed your fear.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
That's it.
Yeah, you're still living infear.
Yeah, so what you're reallyliving, truly living, is living
with the people, even the oneswho are different from you, but
learning to accept their rightto be different and teaching
them to accept your right to bedifferent from them.
That is when we live in peace.
So I'm not religious in thatsense.
I'm not lobbying a certainpolitical.
(50:08):
I don't support anybody.
I support mankind.
I support everybody except thehaters.
So people who are hating Ican't support that.
Intolerance is something thereis my limitation, and so that is
where we're limited at thelibrary.
So if somebody wants to use usas a platform to spew, you know,
vile stuff about others, thenyou're not going to be a book.
(50:32):
That's why we train and vet.
We try to make sure you don'thave a big chip on your shoulder
.
You're not coming in forrevenge or to to to gush out
your intolerance.
But within each and every oneof us, even our books, we have
lessons to learn about ourunconscious bias, because we all
judge, you and me also.
Yes, humanity isn't it?
(50:53):
Yes, so this is just.
This is an opportunity, andit's free.
All it takes from you is alittle bit of courage, and I
want you to.
I want to thank you forinviting me to be part of this
and reaching your audience, andmaybe some of them will come and
be brave and unjust someonewith us, either online or in
person.
Follow our social media to tostay updated on on events.
We keep posting where theevents are taking place and
(51:16):
we're spreading.
It takes time because we'redoing quality work, but we're
spreading.
We're already in Chicago, we'rein Indiana, we're in New York,
we're in California, we're inLos Angeles, we're in the Bay
Area, but we're spreading moreand more to more and more places
.
Next stop, we're going to buildin Boston And today I had a big
call with somebody who wants tohelp us build in Florida, in
(51:37):
West Palm Beach.
So before you know it, we'll bein a neighborhood near you and
you'll have a learningopportunity.
And if you can't wait, join usonline.
It's free.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Thank you, ronnie.
Hey, everybody, go to thewebsite, check it out
humanlaboratoryorg.
I'll have all the connectionson our website and go check out
the books, see how you canunjudge someone.
Yeah, thank you, vanessa.
Come be a book.
I think this might be.
I think I might just do that,but I'm definitely going to go
check out some books, thank you.
(52:07):
Thank you very much.
Thank you, wow, that was agreat conversation.
I love this idea And I foundthe human library in my search
for my own lost story, a storyabout my father who was in a
concentration camp in theNetherlands during World War II.
(52:30):
He would never speak of hisexperience and his story went
with him when he passed.
I recognize that the humanlibrary is not a traditional
library where I perhaps couldhave found information on my
father's journey, but I wish I'dheard his story so I could
better understand him, and Ithink this is the key
(52:50):
understanding one another, notjudging a book by its cover, but
actually looking inside intoour humanity.
As Ronnie said, it's difficultto hate someone once you know
them.
Thanks again for listening.
You guys, take care.
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